View Full Version : Finally, a reply from the gubbinment
Well a while ago (23rd March) I sent an email to Nathan Guy, nationals Otaki MP with regard to more cheesecutters going up in Kapiti....here is what I sent
Dear Mr Guy,
As a motorcyclist I am very concerned with the amount of wire barriers going up on our local roads. I admit that they do stop cars and light four wheel drives effectively, but unfortuanately they are a death trap for two wheeled commuters. The Kapiti coast is a wonderful place for riding but we are losing that pleasure as the days and weeks go by with the implementation of more and more barriers. I ask you to either stop installing these barriers or look at making them safer for motorcyclists. There is a product designed specifically for that called "moto-tub" that decreases the risk of motorcyclist deaths associated with wire barriers.
Kind regards,
A concerned biker
Well I recieved a reply this week...I cant copy and paste so here it is as an attachment
206857206858
Typical Gubbinment response....
Kendog
6th May 2010, 06:39
Typical Gubbinment response....
By typical do you mean informative and considered?
It seems like a pretty good response to me.
i have to agree.
it's a good response. not the usual "we'll let you know", he seems to have actually collected information, and says that they are trying to find solutions.
it's the right thing to say.
now, if i were you, to get the best from his shown availability, i'd organize a beautiful working group, lookin for all the solutions adopted elsewhere in the world, better if attached with some cost information.
then send the folder to him.
something as "dear mr, we appreciate your effort in finding better solutions for all road users. in the hope of helping the research group, we send you all the possibilities we've found around the world, to ease the work of adopting the best one, etc etc...."
if you demonstrate a serious and propositional approach, there are possibilities to be invited to participate in research, and stand for the voice of you all.
:niceone:
now, if i were you, to get the best from his shown availability, i'd organize a beautiful working group, lookin for all the solutions adopted elsewhere in the world, better if attached with some cost information.
then send the folder to him.
something as "dear mr, we appreciate your effort in finding better solutions for all road users. in the hope of helping the research group, we send you all the possibilities we've found around the world, to ease the work of adopting the best one, etc etc...."
if you demonstrate a serious and propositional approach, there are possibilities to be invited to participate in research, and stand for the voice of you all.
:niceone:
Alas, I am a simple man, and do not do well in all political things, but that is a bloody good idea...someone out here could well have the know how and ability to do that
That reply is full of the standard responses. The ones that, when you boil them down, actually say "Fuck off! We'll keep using (and installing) these things for as long as we see fit."
There is a wealth of studies and info out there, for the taking. And not one of them shows WRB in a good light for bikers. Strangely enough, no volunteers are available anywhere in the world for actual contact test. But there are endless computer-generated simulations that show just what a rider can expect (if one lacks the imagination to figure it out).
Further proof of just how much concern is given to rider/barrier safety is well illustrated by the new Armco posts...
p.dath
6th May 2010, 12:55
I presume they are doing the research with Monash University in NSW. I don't think there is much more to research ...
Monash have already released a report stating the dangers of each barrier type for Motorcycles, and how to mitigate that risk. The NZTA just have to read it.
Alas the PDF is 1.1MB, and I can only upload 1MB PDF attachments.
I presume they are doing the research with Monash University in NSW. I don't think there is much more to research ...
Monash have already released a report stating the dangers of each barrier type for Motorcycles, and how to mitigate that risk. The NZTA just have to read it.
Alas the PDF is 1.1MB, and I can only upload 1MB PDF attachments.
sounds interesting, don't suppose you have a web link for it? or send me the file an I can probly upload it to hotfile or something.
p.dath
6th May 2010, 13:07
Found it on the web.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf
I presume they are doing the research with Monash University in NSW. I don't think there is much more to research ...
Monash have already released a report stating the dangers of each barrier type for Motorcycles, and how to mitigate that risk. The NZTA just have to read it.
Alas the PDF is 1.1MB, and I can only upload 1MB PDF attachments.
And your telling us why?
No offense - but explaining to us rather than them seems a bit pointless don't you think.
Seems there a lots of people out there who wish to complain. But very few who actually propose cases to the govt with substance.
If you don't like something, find a cheaper alternative that you prefer and then ask them why they enjoy getting ripped off.
As mentioend by others its an interesting reply - even if filled with the normal bullshit that they spout.
I think a question to pose is "why are they installing the WRB's in contradiction to installation guidelines of 3 meters either side being clear"
I am sure that it was we discovered a long time ago when this campaign started - and no one has actually answered that question. Instead they are installing them in smaller and smaller areas with less leeway on either side.
As mentioend by others its an interesting reply - even if filled with the normal bullshit that they spout.
I think a question to pose is "why are they installing the WRB's in contradiction to installation guidelines of 3 meters either side being clear"
I am sure that it was we discovered a long time ago when this campaign started - and no one has actually answered that question. Instead they are installing them in smaller and smaller areas with less leeway on either side.
I know I saw such a recommendation on a manufacturer's website. It stands to reason that room is needed, for when the wire flexes under a strike.
However, I failed to note the web-page and have been unable to find it again.
This lot here (NZTA) aren't interested in installation guidelines or instructions. They simply see the finished product as taking up less room than a concrete barrier, and that's why it was installed along the Paekak coast road.
And your telling us why?
No offense - but explaining to us rather than them seems a bit pointless don't you think.
Seems there a lots of people out there who wish to complain. But very few who actually propose cases to the govt with substance.
If you don't like something, find a cheaper alternative that you prefer and then ask them why they enjoy getting ripped off.
As far as I can make out the cheescutters are the cheapest option but are known to be the most dangerous ,especially to motorcycles.
It's not about being ripped off but using the least safe method of protection. Bit like the rythym method ( ask a Catholic)
As far as I can make out the cheescutters are the cheapest option but are known to be the most dangerous ,especially to motorcycles.
It's not about being ripped off but using the least safe method of protection. Bit like the rythym method ( ask a Catholic)
Ah yes - but your assuming that the govt gives a flying fuck about motorcyclist. Previous history tells me, no.
The only way your going to get them on this issue is very simple. Cost or Legal.
So either prove that (without crashing) they pose a hazard, or show them that they are not cost effective.
This can be done when you consider aspect like - repair and maintenance - something concrete rarely requires.
I am no going to do it for you guys - because I personally have no issue with WRB. I simply don't crash into them. If I did - it would be my own fault.
But I am sick of people complaining here - and working harder not smarter. Its annoying.
mashman
6th May 2010, 13:38
The only way to go is to remove them altogether... they're catering for the majority of road users, not the most vulnerable... and that being the case anything short of giant fly paper isn't going to make a blind bit of difference... but that's the way of the world these days...
The only way to go is to remove them altogether...
reckon a truckie would notice if one end of the cheesecutter wire was hooked to his truck as he went past? why yes I have been watchin Fast and Furious, why do you ask? :lol:
But back to the OP, send them the pdf p.dath linked to, is a very interesting read and looks like it answers the questions in their reply.
reckon a truckie would notice if one end of the cheesecutter wire was hooked to his truck as he went past? why yes I have been watchin Fast and Furious, why do you ask? :lol:
But back to the OP, send them the pdf p.dath linked to, is a very interesting read and looks like it answers the questions in their reply.
You assume that Joyce isn't lying when he says "No studies...incomplete...etc"
The linked report has been around for quite some time, and 'our' officials are well aware of it and it's contents.
You assume that Joyce isn't lying when he says "No studies...incomplete...etc"
The linked report has been around for quite some time, and 'our' officials are well aware of it and it's contents.
Well It'd put him on the spot a bit then, and surely thats a good thing!
Ah yes - but your assuming that the govt gives a flying fuck about motorcyclist. Previous history tells me, no.
The only way your going to get them on this issue is very simple. Cost or Legal.
So either prove that (without crashing) they pose a hazard, or show them that they are not cost effective.
This can be done when you consider aspect like - repair and maintenance - something concrete rarely requires.
I am no going to do it for you guys - because I personally have no issue with WRB. I simply don't crash into them. If I did - it would be my own fault.
But I am sick of people complaining here - and working harder not smarter. Its annoying.
Ahhh no. You assumed that, I KNOW they are less interested in minority groups.
I believe that alot of people are trying to do exactly what you suggest , it's in our best interests as not all accidents occur due to our own mistakes.
I support these people as I KNOW the Govt is being more than creative with the truth.
As a side issue, most of us don't care about things until they impact on us.
phill-k
6th May 2010, 14:54
- because I personally have no issue with RB. I simply don't crash into them. If I did - it would be my own fault.
.
Tend to agree with you here, as you say if you crash into them its your fault, however if mrs jones is putting lippie on in the opposing lane and inadvertently slams into the barrier rather than crossing the median and smacking into you going in the opposite direction, the barrier has just done you a big favour. I guess the prevention of that type of accident must come into the equation.
Tend to agree with you here, as you say if you crash into them its your fault, however if mrs jones is putting lippie on in the opposing lane and inadvertently slams into the barrier rather than crossing the median and smacking into you going in the opposite direction, the barrier has just done you a big favour. I guess the prevention of that type of accident must come into the equation.
Good point but to me it's a matter of doing a job properly. E.G. Mrs Jones car leaks oil on the road, you hit it and slide into said barrier. If it was concrete you'd break some bones, bounce off and may have to deal with other traffic coming your way.
If its a WRB you're gonna get ripped limb from limb.
Neither is ideal but one is certian death.
Tend to agree with you here, as you say if you crash into them its your fault, however if mrs jones is putting lippie on in the opposing lane and inadvertently slams into the barrier rather than crossing the median and smacking into you going in the opposite direction, the barrier has just done you a big favour. I guess the prevention of that type of accident must come into the equation.
Shhhhhh thats a secret - apparently WRB are evil here.
They were only invented to kill motorcyclists apparently.
Tend to agree with you here, as you say if you crash into them its your fault, however if mrs jones is putting lippie on in the opposing lane and inadvertently slams into the barrier rather than crossing the median and smacking into you going in the opposite direction, the barrier has just done you a big favour. I guess the prevention of that type of accident must come into the equation.
Good point but to me it's a matter of doing a job properly. E.G. Mrs Jones car leaks oil on the road, you hit it and slide into said barrier. If it was concrete you'd break some bones, bounce off and may have to deal with other traffic coming your way.
If its a WRB you're gonna get ripped limb from limb.
Neither is ideal but one is certian death.
So you want to pack them with foam - good idea.
Go do it.
Or prove a financial or ethical case to the govt to do so.
I refer to my previous post.
mashman
6th May 2010, 15:15
If its a WRB you're gonna get ripped limb from limb.
That or you'll slide through the fence and into oncoming traffic.
So you want to pack them with foam - good idea.
Go do it.
Or prove a financial or ethical case to the govt to do so.
I refer to my previous post.
This guy tried...http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/80741-Cheesecutter-protection
Transit (as it was at the time) didn't want to know. I can't remember, but I think they never even looked at what the guy came up with.
So you want to pack them with foam - good idea.
Go do it.
Or prove a financial or ethical case to the govt to do so.
I refer to my previous post.
How is it that people spend alot of time moaning about other people moaning.
This guy tried...http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/80741-Cheesecutter-protection
Transit (as it was at the time) didn't want to know. I can't remember, but I think they never even looked at what the guy came up with.
After asking for an extra $70K I am not surprised.
Where was the cheaper or "more legal" spin about his business?
By the sounds of things his proposal goes like this.
Hi Govt who don't really care about bikers. Did you know that your WRB could kill a biker (that you don't really care about). How about giving me $70K to fix a problem you don't feel needs fixing?
No?
How about you have at least have a look about this thing that will fix a problem that you don't care about?
No?
I think I know this guy - he came to my house and poured dirt on my carpet to trying to tell me my vacuum was not good enough.
How is it that people spend alot of time moaning about other people moaning.
My web-phones are broken so I can't dull out the moaning. Figure it my be easier to try and fix the problem.
Turns out I should have just looked at porn
R-Soul
10th May 2010, 15:38
Faaarrrk me but reading that Aussie write up about teh tcrash testing had me cringing in pain already...
"Figure 23 shows the kinematics for an upright rider
on a motorcycle impacting a wire rope barrier. The
calculated injuries from the simulations suggest that
serious injury would result regardless of speed and
impact angle."
Pretty much says it all, really...
Pixie
22nd May 2010, 08:50
Tend to agree with you here, as you say if you crash into them its your fault, however if mrs jones is putting lippie on in the opposing lane and inadvertently slams into the barrier rather than crossing the median and smacking into you going in the opposite direction, the barrier has just done you a big favour. I guess the prevention of that type of accident must come into the equation.
Unless ,of course, the barrier didn't have the recommended 3 metres of margin and she pushed it into your lane anyway and sliced you in half.
R-Soul
24th May 2010, 14:30
Well there you go. the Bike Riders party will be swept into a minority vote at teh next election on teh basisi of its proposals to take down WRB's.
Talk with your votes people.
There are damn few other politicallly realistic things to cast a vote on otherwise.
R-Soul
24th May 2010, 14:31
Ixion - how about it? Get paid to talk on KB all day and call it "keeping your fingers on the pulse of your voting public"
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