Gotta feel for the Greek people

[mashman]

Yet another government fucking up its economy and expecting the people and the finances of other countries to bail them out... Can't wait for NZ to go broke... I quite fancy seeing what kind of TV JK has...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8664161.stm

[Tank]

Yet another government fucking up its economy and expecting the people and the finances of other countries to bail them out... Can't wait for NZ to go broke... I quite fancy seeing what kind of TV JK has...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8664161.stm

Yep - too many benefits for people. 14 to 16 months salary for g'ment works per year, retire on 80% at 55.

You cannot spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow and expect not to go broke. Thank fuck JK got in and broke the labour "spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow" model and actually is making NZ live within its means.

of course the leafties want more and more for the poor and nett takers of soceity - they are the fuckers that cause the issue - so Wayhay National ! way to go guys !

[Swoop]

I quite fancy seeing what kind of TV JK has...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8664161.stm

Why hasn't skyrider been along to explain that "the Greek Crisis was caused by the National party"?:scratch:

[mashman]

Why hasn't skyrider been along to explain that "the Greek Crisis was caused by the National party"?:scratch:

Prolly too busy with his hand on his....... heart "watching" the british erection... i mean election...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yep - too many benefits for people. 14 to 16 months salary for g'ment works per year, retire on 80% at 55.

You cannot spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow and expect not to go broke. Thank fuck JK got in and broke the labour "spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow" model and actually is making NZ live within its means.

of course the leafties want more and more for the poor and nett takers of soceity - they are the fuckers that cause the issue - so Wayhay National ! way to go guys !

I read somewhere about endemic corruption in Greece. The example was you pay extra taxes or levies for water if you have a swimming pool: makes sense: Greece is hot. There were something like 6000 registered swimming pools in Athens, but when they did an aeiral survey it turned out there were 60 THOUSAND. maybe I read that in "The Economist"? recently? will see if i can find a reference.

[firefighter]

I felt sorry for the Greek people until they murdered innocent people and destroyed innocent peoples property, just to make life that little bit harder for them. Now they (well ok only the rioters) deserve every bit of hardship they get.

Why the fuck do protestors attack police BTW? I never understood that. Assaulting and murdering innocent people does'nt get back at parliament. Really pissed me off when I saw that molotov set that cop of fire. What the fuck did that achieve other than potentially taking away another equally affected families father?

I think when cops start getting attacked they should be required (not permitted required) to open fire with live rounds on all protestors who do'nt immediately disperse. Why the fuck should they be attacked and killed over something they have nothing to fucken do with? Time and time again. It's B/S and it needs to stop.

Anyone who disagrees should be made to stand a riot line with some cops, with no protective gear on, and see how they like things they have no control over be taken out on them, via molotovs and voilent animals.

The saying is true, a person is smart, people are stupid........or none of us is as stupid as all of us....

Fucken idiots.

[SlashWylde]

I read somewhere about endemic corruption in Greece. The example was you pay extra taxes or levies for water if you have a swimming pool: makes sense: Greece is hot. There were something like 6000 registered swimming pools in Athens, but when they did an aeiral survey it turned out there were 60 THOUSAND. maybe I read that in "The Economist"? recently? will see if i can find a reference.

Yup, read about that the other day here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?th&emc=th) Much tax avoidance it would seem

[rainman]

There were something like 6000 registered swimming pools in Athens, but when they did an aeiral survey it turned out there were 60 THOUSAND.

So, it's the rich swimming pool owning pricks that are the problem? :)


Why the fuck do protestors attack police BTW? I never understood that. Assaulting and murdering innocent people does'nt get back at parliament.

You're quite right, and it is herd/mob instinct, which is not our best work, typically. But maybe they feel they have no other effective option? Maybe there is a time that violent revolution is called for. Not saying this is the case in Greece, which I know little about other than it's a complex mix of social, government, big bank, and finance company corruption. Are there any good guys in the Greek mess?

[firefighter]

But maybe they feel they have no other effective option? Maybe there is a time that violent revolution is called for.

There's very, very few times where that's almost appropriate.(I never think it's ok to take it out on those who have absolutely nothing to do with it) However every time a coconut, a cop gets bottled because a whale was killed on the other side of the world.....by boats owned by another country.So to speak.

[Mully]

Why the fuck do protestors attack police BTW? I never understood that.
.

Because the people that caused the problems aren't about to stand up in front of an angry mob, and the Police are seen as a representative of "the man".

[firefighter]

Because the people that caused the problems aren't about to stand up in front of an angry mob, and the Police are seen as a representative of "the man".

Any excuse for violence I guess.

[scracha]

Why the fuck do protestors attack police BTW? I never understood that. Assaulting and murdering innocent people does'nt get back at parliament. Really pissed me off when I saw that molotov set that cop of fire. What the fuck did that achieve other than potentially taking away another equally affected families father?

<snip>

Anyone who disagrees should be made to stand a riot line with some cops, with no protective gear on, and see how they like things they have no control over be taken out on them, via molotovs and voilent animals.


The cops choose their career. Nobody forces them to stand in front of government buildings. If they choose to put themselves in the way of the real culprits (the politicians) then I have no sympathy when they get attacked.

[robertvi]

Why the fuck do protestors attack police BTW?

I think they get attacked in some cases because they are trying to suppress legitimate, peaceful protest with heavy handed tactics (e.g. kettling) - I don't know how much this applies to the Greek case.

My opinion of police handling of protests has certainly gone down hill in recent years. UK police seem to treat any protesters as a nuisance or worse. If people are not able to protest peacefully, things can easily get out of hand and turn nasty.

[firefighter]

The cops choose their career. Nobody forces them to stand in front of government buildings. If they choose to put themselves in the way of the real culprits (the politicians) then I have no sympathy when they get attacked.

I did'nt realise you were ignorant. They do'nt get a choice, they stand that line because they're told to. You ca'nt just say you do'nt want to do it, you are ordered there.

Stupid fucken cops though eh bro? Heaven help society when no-one wants to get out and help out in the community and do their bit, because we make stupid excuses for the violence towards them like you just did. I hope you are attacked for your career choice, i'll feel no sympathy for you either. Sorry that's not fair, i'll side with you and say how dare they try and make a difference in the community......

Most cops I know joined up because they really did want to do their bit, the fact they could be called in for riot control is out of their hands. There's plenty of situations they would rather not be in, but they do'nt get to pick and choose.


I think they get attacked in some cases because they are trying to suppress legitimate, peaceful protest with heavy handed tactics (e.g. kettling) - I don't know how much this applies to the Greek case.
My opinion of police handling of protests has certainly gone down hill in recent years. UK police seem to treat any protesters as a nuisance or worse. If people are not able to protest peacefully, things can easily get out of hand and turn nasty.

Ahaaaaa. And why do you think it's become that way?! They have to go out in force, with no-nonsense forceful attitudes or they'll lose the inevitable battle. Heavy handed tactics work, they really do'nt have much of a choice these days, if they go in with mittens on they'll all be killed. Most so-called "peaceful protests" become anything but. I ca'nt say i've seen our cops being overzealous at any legitimately peaceful protest here.

[Elysium]

I stopped caring for the Greek people when they killed those bank workers when they threw petrol bombs into a bank.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep - too many benefits for people. 14 to 16 months salary for g'ment works per year, retire on 80% at 55.

You cannot spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow and expect not to go broke. Thank fuck JK got in and broke the labour "spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow" model and actually is making NZ live within its means.

of course the leafties want more and more for the poor and nett takers of soceity - they are the fuckers that cause the issue - so Wayhay National ! way to go guys !


Couldnt agree more, too many people elect Governments that promise to give give give but where the flippin heck does the money come from in the first place? The Greeks have obviously gone for the soft options for way too long, as we did here. Now they are paying the price. Same with the poms, and they are so bloody stupid. They had a golden opportunity to elect a Tory government and they have blown it.

[Voltaire]

When I was living in Ireland in the 'boom' times ( no not the IRA) one of the papers said that it was amazing Ireland was asked to join the EU in the first place as it was so poor.
They got billions in grants so when it came time to let Greece in they could not say no.
I was in Greece in 2002 and petrol must have been subcidised as it was 1.3 Euros in Germany and only .75 Euros in Greece.
It struck me as odd that the Euro zone was so regulated yet the countries in it so different economically.
As they are part of Euro they can't devalue as NZ did in 84.
I'm guessing they are worried in Europe of a domino effect...the PIGS Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain.
Ireland is not so bad as most of the companies are US owned.

[scracha]

Couldnt agree more, too many people elect Governments that promise to give give give but where the flippin heck does the money come from in the first place? The Greeks have obviously gone for the soft options for way too long, as we did here. Now they are paying the price. Same with the poms, and they are so bloody stupid. They had a golden opportunity to elect a Tory government and they have blown it.
Boom times were caused by the bloody Tories. "buy your house for $10K from the government and sell it 10 years later for $500K".

[scumdog]

Yet another government fucking up its economy and expecting the people and the finances of other countries to bail them out... Can't wait for NZ to go broke... I quite fancy seeing what kind of TV JK has...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8664161.stm

You'll get it in NZ soon enough - pyramid marketing economies will always go tits up.

Enjoy.

(So what would YOU do?)

[LBD]

Yup, read about that the other day here (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?th&emc=th) Much tax avoidance it would seem

Seems its a national pass time...on Euro News this morning they were estimating 25 to 30 Billiion of tax avoidence a year....

[SS90]

When I was living in Ireland in the 'boom' times ( no not the IRA) one of the papers said that it was amazing Ireland was asked to join the EU in the first place as it was so poor.
They got billions in grants so when it came time to let Greece in they could not say no.
I was in Greece in 2002 and petrol must have been subcidised as it was 1.3 Euros in Germany and only .75 Euros in Greece.
It struck me as odd that the Euro zone was so regulated yet the countries in it so different economically.
As they are part of Euro they can't devalue as NZ did in 84.
I'm guessing they are worried in Europe of a domino effect...the PIGS Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain.
Ireland is not so bad as most of the companies are US owned.

True, Ireland (the republic) is as poor as it gets now, a country that lives and dies by it's educated workforce, that, as soon as it became a member of the EU, became flooded with Polish immigrants, who in no way "become part of the community", are totally legally entitled to benefits (unlike home), that include a free house and a few hundred Euro's on top.

Rent an apartment in Dublin? Bahahhahahah, not for less that €1200 per month....and that is for a shit hole.

Ireland will follow Greece (Iceland was the first country to go belly up, but they seem to be making good now), Italy is in a state of perpetual "bankruptcy tomorrow", infact, the EU is only really propped up by Germany (by far the biggest contributor, and, infact the only country that actually meets the rules required to be a member, followed by the UK, then France)

Oh, Spains Fucked too, and there is every chance that they will go under if something is not done soon.

Feel sorry for the Greek people? yes and no, the country needs to be put "under management" to come right.

I pay 43% tax, and now Greece,Spain,and the Republic of Ireland have all got their hands out for more loans from the EU (and the only countries that put any money in to the EU are Germany,France and the UK (and to a small extent Austria)

If you drive around Europe, you will see in places (like Greece ) signs saying "this highway was built with money from the EU", no such signs exist in central Europe, infact, Croatia are pledging to become part of the union now, and, one of the conditions of all "applicants" is a minimum standard of highway BEFORE they are even considered. Croatia now has a brand new (three year old) highway, that, yes, is tolled (cheapest in Europe), and did not borrow money from the EU to do it, and, it "pays it's own way" already.

Greek is a lame dog of the EU, and, as such should be removed from the Union.

[mashman]

You'll get it in NZ soon enough - pyramid marketing economies will always go tits up.

Enjoy.

(So what would YOU do?)

I'm looking forward to seeing JK's TV... :)

I shan't one bit.

(:rofl: hmmmmm... well... apart from doubling the police force overnight.........)

[mashman]

Seems its a national pass time...on Euro News this morning they were estimating 25 to 30 Billiion of tax avoidence a year....

How much do you think is lost here using similar "tax evasion" practices?

[LBD]

How much do you think is lost here using similar "tax evasion" practices?

Mate I wouldn't put a value on NZ evasion but as NZ is the officially least corrupt contry in the world I doubt it is anywhere near that....and the point being made was that Tax evasion is a national pass time...chronic llevels of evasion in Greece.

[mashman]

Mate I wouldn't put a value on NZ evasion but as NZ is the officially least corrupt contry in the world I doubt it is anywhere near that....and the point being made was that Tax evasion is a national pass time...chronic llevels of evasion in Greece.

So i've read recently... How's things around you at the moment? settled?

[jonbuoy]

Another problem for Greece and Spain is the Euro being so strong (at the moment anyway), traditionally Greece, Spain and Portugal have been "Cheap" places to go on holiday with northern European tourists cashing up their Marks, Sterling, Guilders etc.. now with the Euro and a weak pound the tourists are better off staying at home or heading for non euro countries (what few there are left).

[Toaster]

Greeks in the poo.


Enough said.

[scracha]

I did'nt realise you were ignorant. They do'nt get a choice, they stand that line because they're told to. You ca'nt just say you do'nt want to do it, you are ordered there.


Ze ver only following ze orders Ja?

I'm sure I've hard that before somewhere in history.

[Voltaire]

Feel sorry for the Greek people? yes and no, the country needs to be put "under management" to come right

Last time that happened was in 1941....
Beats me why the Germans and the French prop up the EU.

[Robert Taylor]

Boom times were caused by the bloody Tories. "buy your house for $10K from the government and sell it 10 years later for $500K".

At least they had the opportunity afforded to them to buy their own homes. I dont think many Brits would historically begrudge that, excepting those that idolise Tony Benn and Arthur Scargill.

Its the same old story, Torys put money in the bank, along comes a Labour Government and squanders it. Just look at Kevin Ruddiculous in Austruckingfailure, wasting the reserves so capably accrued by Howard and Costello. Just like the old Monty Python sketch its all not so far from the truth, a battle between the ''Sensible '' party and the ''Silly'' party.

One thing is clear, Botchup Brown is easily the worst Priminister that Britain has had since the James Callaghans and Clement Atlees of this world. As Enoch Powell so capably said ''all political careers end in failure'' Im looking forward to the idiot being evicted from No 10 so a slick and articulate Etonian can start wielding the knife.

[firefighter]

Ze ver only following ze orders Ja?

I'm sure I've hard that before somewhere in history.

Heaps of places. I'm sure you have the same callous views to all NZ defence force personnel too. I suppose you can liken them also into what you thought was an intelligent rebuttle. It was'nt. If you follow orders it does'nt mean you have anything in common with what you are getting at.

Actually, you've basically said you have no sympathy for any soldier, police officer, firefighter, ambulance officer, or anyone else who puts themselves in harms way so that you can live your life, all because yep you guessed it, they all have to follow orders.

[SS90]

Beats me why the Germans and the French prop up the EU.

Erm ,because Germany has the 4th biggest economy in the world, and France the 5th, the nearest EU country (in terms of GDP) is the UK (6th) then, 7th and 9th respectively are Italy and Spain (both in a recession and borrowing heavily/asking for handouts from the EU) The next closest EU country in terms of GDP way down the list at 20th is Belgium.

So, like I say, Germany,France and the UK are the backbone of the EU (even all the EU banking is done in Germany), and, none of these 3 countries has any "this public service is paid for by the EU" signs anywhere........Spain does, Italy as well (though not on the Autostrada in Italy, as they are privately owned)

But, back to the point, Greece screwed themselves up, and committed fraud to do it, and now want the EU members to give more money blindly...... no thanks!

And, considering the EU contributions are based on GDP, it's pretty clear who pays the most.

[Magua]

You cannot spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow and expect not to go broke. Thank fuck JK got in and broke the labour "spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow" model and actually is making NZ live within its means.



Spend spend spend, borrow borrow borrow. Would that be why Labour was running with a surplus for many years? :P

[Tank]

Spend spend spend, borrow borrow borrow. Would that be why Labour was running with a surplus for many years? :P

At the end of their term Labour’s books for the Government forecasted to have to borrow $20 billion over the next decade. And that was after all the surplus's you mention. A decade of deficits is going to push debt from under 20% of GDP to over 30%.

Yet they still wanted to borrow more to give $$$$ for benefits etc. Thank fuck they were kicked out - else we may have ended up broke.

[CookMySock]

Why the fuck do protestors attack police BTW? I never understood that. Assaulting and murdering innocent people does'nt get back at parliament. Really pissed me off when I saw that molotov set that cop of fire. What the fuck did that achieve other than potentially taking away another equally affected families father? Why are the cops there? What's the point?

Do you think there will be less damage or more, if the police show up?

What would happen if the cops didn't show up at all?

Steve

[mashman]

What would happen if the cops didn't show up at all?

Steve

There'd be dead politicians everywhere... I wish the people had just been left alone to sort it out... after all they were trying to get access to their employees... employees that will defend themselves using deadly force it would seem...

As for the cops taking orders... if the country is as corrupt as has been mentioned, then i'd venture that the cops have something to lose by letting the politicians die...

How's about a liddle question for the police on here... You know that rich pricks are ruining your country and fully realise that politicians are doing nothing about it, quite the opposite in fact, would you then risk your life to protect your country's politicians from its people?

[BoristheBiter]

There'd be dead politicians everywhere... I wish the people had just been left alone to sort it out... after all they were trying to get access to their employees... employees that will defend themselves using deadly force it would seem...

As for the cops taking orders... if the country is as corrupt as has been mentioned, then i'd venture that the cops have something to lose by letting the politicians die...

How's about a liddle question for the police on here... You know that rich pricks are ruining your country and fully realise that politicians are doing nothing about it, quite the opposite in fact, would you then risk your life to protect your country's politicians from its people?

Have you ever stopped to think that the cops are trying to protect the property that the protestors are destroying?
All the people on here who bag the police should stop to think what they would do if it was their shop that was being smashed up or it was their mum/dad/sis/bro that was in that bank.

[mashman]

Have you ever stopped to think that the cops are trying to protect the property that the protestors are destroying?
All the people on here who bag the police should stop to think what they would do if it was their shop that was being smashed up or it was their mum/dad/sis/bro that was in that bank.

Yes i have stopped to think... but in all honesty that's what insurance is for... it's just stuff. I'm not bagging the cops... just saying there maybe ulterior motives at work... especially if the country is as corrupt as i've read...

If it was my shop, i would have been looking forwards to the insurance company pay out and counting my lucky stars that i wasn't burned to a crisp in a bank.

I'm all for the cops... they do a terrific job... but i draw the line at the police being used as an army against the country's people... just because politicians want to be protected.

[Fatt Max]

Greeks in the poo.


Enough said.

well, they did invent it after all.......

But hey, the bubbles cant seem to organise a butt fuck at the Mardi Gras these days so fecking 'Souvlaki' to the lot of them. Wont be the first time they will go belly up I s'pose....

Hands up who wants a Taverna?

[mashman]

PAh!!!!! Would you be happy if NZ was FORCED to hand over money to support a corrupt country? because you won't get a choice.

"Alistair Darling has caved into a demand that British taxpayers underwrite at least £10bn of debt held by other European governments, amid fears that the Greek debt crisis could spread.

The deal is aimed at calming global stock markets by reassuring traders that there are measures to stop any contagion caused by Greece from spreading to other nations such as Spain and Portugal.

The Chancellor, acting for the UK until a government is formed, agreed last night to participate in a 110bn (£95bn) stabilisation mechanism designed by finance ministers."

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/darling-agrees-to-give-10bn-to-europe-bail-out-tele-0318a46379fb.html

will they ever learn...

[mashman]

Greek debt crisis eases, but drama is not over (http://www.3news.co.nz/Greek-debt-crisis-eases-but-drama-is-not-over/tabid/417/articleID/242358/Default.aspx) ... couple of fave passages

"Greece is also close to a vital debt-relief deal with banks, hedge funds, pension funds and other private investors. Under the tentative deal, the private investors would exchange €206 billion in Greek government bonds for €30 billion in cash, plus €70 billion in new bonds. The cash would come from the €130 billion package from Europe and the IMF. The new bonds would have a lower average interest rate and a longer term of maturity."... Who the fuck are these private investors? Bankers most likely deciding that they have worked oh so hard and feel that they deserve a share of €30 billion

"Much of the improvement, though, is credited to the European Central Bank, which announced a program in December designed to help stabilise shaky banks in the eurozone. The ECB said it would loan the banks unlimited amounts of money at 1 percent interest and for three years instead of the normal one. The banks responded by borrowing €489 billion. They've used at least some of that money to buy government bonds - extra demand that has helped bring down governments' borrowing costs."... So the ECB is going to loan the banks unlimited amounts of money, bwaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... what's wrong with allowing country's to borrow at that level, give them all the money they can handle and they can repay their debts whilst having a low percentage loan that they may be able to pay back.

That's UNLIMITED amounts of money and a shit load of debt written off. Looks like defaulting isn't so bad after all... Go hard JK!

[Brett]

The cops choose their career. Nobody forces them to stand in front of government buildings. If they choose to put themselves in the way of the real culprits (the politicians) then I have no sympathy when they get attacked.

If people were left to their own devices, all mayhem would be abound.

Edit - thread dredge!

[Brett]

Spend spend spend, borrow borrow borrow. Would that be why Labour was running with a surplus for many years? :P

Even a stupid accountant can fudge the books. It is not hard at all. The problem is that sooner or later the books can no longer be balanced and suddenly the shit hit the fan. Yes, Labour ran a 'surplus', but not one that was genuine nor sustainable. Shifting a fiscal problem from one area of a ledger to another without dealing with it hides it well, but allows the problem to get even worse.

[SMOKEU]

Thank fuck JK got in and broke the labour "spend spend spend and borrow, borrow borrow" model and actually is making NZ live within its means.

of course the leafties want more and more for the poor and nett takers of soceity - they are the fuckers that cause the issue - so Wayhay National ! way to go guys !

I'm not a fan of Labour (I've never voted for them, and don't think I ever will), but I'm sick of National supporters blaming Labour for all the problems this country has. If National is so good, why has fuck all changed since National came to power? JK and his fellow clowns are almost as far left as they come. The country is in huge debt, violent crime is increasing, I can't even leave my bike parked on the street safely, whores are breeding like rabbits and milking the benefits for as much money as they can, and the NZ government has bent over and taken it up the ass by the US government in the Kim Dotcom drama. National have done nothing but screw over the citizens of this country as much as they can. I could wank on and on about stupid National policies but I can't be fucked doing that because it will fall on deaf ears.

[Berries]

I can't even leave my bike parked on the street safely.
I walked up to my bike yesterday after finishing work and as I reached in to my pocket to get my key out I saw it sitting there in the ignition. I laughed, it had been there all day and nobody took it for a joy ride. Wouldn't happen in Greece, or Chch by the sound of it.

[SMOKEU]

I walked up to my bike yesterday after finishing work and as I reached in to my pocket to get my key out I saw it sitting there in the ignition. I laughed, it had been there all day and nobody took it for a joy ride. Wouldn't happen in Greece, or Chch by the sound of it.

With all the "bike stolen" threads on KB I wouldn't risk it ay.

[mashman]

I walked up to my bike yesterday after finishing work and as I reached in to my pocket to get my key out I saw it sitting there in the ignition. I laughed, it had been there all day and nobody took it for a joy ride. Wouldn't happen in Greece, or Chch by the sound of it.

Yup, done the same in Wellie too.

[Brett]

I'm not a fan of Labour (I've never voted for them, and don't think I ever will), but I'm sick of National supporters blaming Labour for all the problems this country has. If National is so good, why has fuck all changed since National came to power? JK and his fellow clowns are almost as far left as they come. The country is in huge debt, violent crime is increasing, I can't even leave my bike parked on the street safely, whores are breeding like rabbits and milking the benefits for as much money as they can, and the NZ government has bent over and taken it up the ass by the US government in the Kim Dotcom drama. National have done nothing but screw over the citizens of this country as much as they can. I could wank on and on about stupid National policies but I can't be fucked doing that because it will fall on deaf ears.

I don't agree with everything national does or all of their policies, however I feel that they are the best option at the moment. Why are things slow to turn around at the moment? Partly because the govt is acting slowly to turn around some of the key issues such as the benefit payment (others they have acted on amazingly quickly) but also worth remembering is that the global economic climate right now is pretty dire. Not too many places where things are punting along swimmingly. Overall i think that National have done an ok/good job so far.

[Brian d marge]

I'm not a fan of Labour (I've never voted for them, and don't think I ever will), but I'm sick of National supporters blaming Labour for all the problems this country has. If National is so good, why has fuck all changed since National came to power? JK and his fellow clowns are almost as far left as they come. The country is in huge debt, violent crime is increasing, I can't even leave my bike parked on the street safely, whores are breeding like rabbits and milking the benefits for as much money as they can, and the NZ government has bent over and taken it up the ass by the US government in the Kim Dotcom drama. National have done nothing but screw over the citizens of this country as much as they can. I could wank on and on about stupid National policies but I can't be fucked doing that because it will fall on deaf ears.

because maybe it isn't national or Labour but the market ie follow the money
New Zealand is actually a fiscally responsible country
look at the bond rate its not bad when compared to say Greece
the problems you get in any society are a direct result of wall street ( for want of a better name) economics
cant think of one country that doesn't have the same problems all because of inequities in the society caused by free markets or unregulated greed

stephen

[Coldrider]

I've been OE for while and when I came back to NZ I practically kissed the tarmac, we are living a bit out of our means but some countries are in serious trouble (and are unwilling to accept it) and we are in paradise.

[RDJ]

Very true. There is a neverending supply of people willing to spend others' money - they are always numerically superior to the ones paying taxes.

We have no shortage of those OPM spenders in any of the main political parties... but National, at the time of writing, have slightly fewer than the others.

We can be where Greece is too - we'd just have to let Sue Bradford and Tariana Turia get their way with the fisc.

[Berries]

We can be where Greece is too - we'd just have to let Sue Bradford and Tariana Turia get their way with the fisc.
Good weather and good food? Let them at it.

[mashman]

I don't know why they're rioting WTF do they have to be upset about (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/greece-passes-austerity-bill-riots-spread-235302877.html)... they should just get the fuck over it and stop crying like spoiled children.

[Indiana_Jones]

Yep burning some poor cunts business down is gonna help the economy....:niceone:

-Indy

[mashman]

Yep burning some poor cunts business doen is gonna help the economy....:niceone:

-Indy

True, those businesses could keep the country afloat for years :bleh:

[SPman]

They should start burning a few politicians and bankers down - that'd be more to the point! :niceone:

[blue rider]

good read on greece
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/2/12/8913/17655

Greece must re-establish the Drachme at a realistic value, and basically tell the EU and the private Bankers to go get fucked somewhere eles. The EU and the European Central Bank might not be happy about it, but frankly certain countries in the Monetary Union should have never joined to begin with, in fact a lot of the smaller countries were more or less bullied into joining or else loose access to vital market.
The free for all auction of Greece to some rich investors is undermining the Sovereignty of Greece, and will not go done without some ruckus. so yes Athens will burn....



Profits=capitalism
losses=socialism

the banker and investor class like to swing both ways.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm1-jPEAe9s

[mashman]

"Born in Athens to a Greek mother and English father, PAUL KIDNER returned to the Greek capital four years ago after 14 years working in various countries around the world. He recently started up a business and here he gives Yahoo! News a personal insight into the crisis gripping his country" (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/--i%E2%80%99ve-stopped-watching-the-news--every-day-feels-like-groundhog-day.html)

"To give an indication of how it affects our daily lives, to keep bills down people have taken to switching off their central heating. One friend told me her family even uses a quick blast of a hair-dryer to keep warm. "

"And it adds to a sense of unfairness that I have to pay an additional, brand-new tax on top of other property taxes I’ve already paid. The way it was implemented shows the government knew how unpopular it would be. So the property tax was taken through your electricity bill.

Anyone who didn’t pay would have their electricity cut off. What one side of the fence calls austerity, another calls extortion.".

[jonbuoy]

Its a bit like taking on a 110% mortgage on a property you can´t really afford, finance on that new sofa, TV, car because you want it right now and can´t wait or be bothered to save up for it, maxing out your credit card on eating out and drinks - then finding out that you cant actually pay back the money people loaned you, so the bank gives you a bigger (consolidation) loan to pay back the money you shouldn´t have borrowed in the first place over a longer period. :blink: Sounds a lot like many peoples personal financial situations, they need to take a share of the blame as well. Anyone thats taken out loans they couldn´t afford are just as guilty as the banks that lent it to them, the banks should never have agreed to lend it to them in the first place. Just as Greece should never have been loaned the money in the first place, who do you blame - the people that took out the loans without working out how they were going to pay it back or the people that lent the money you asked for? Nobody forced Greece to borrow huge amounts of money, its sad that joe public is taking the majority of the hardship but a large percentage of joe public isn´t guilt free in this.

[blue rider]

Its a bit like taking on a 110% mortgage on a property you can´t really afford, finance on that new sofa, TV, car because you want it right now and can´t wait or be bothered to save up for it, maxing out your credit card on eating out and drinks - then finding out that you cant actually pay back the money people loaned you, so the bank gives you a bigger (consolidation) loan to pay back the money you shouldn´t have borrowed in the first place over a longer period. :blink: Sounds a lot like many peoples personal financial situations, they need to take a share of the blame as well. Anyone thats taken out loans they couldn´t afford are just as guilty as the banks that lent it to them, the banks should never have agreed to lend it to them in the first place. Just as Greece should never have been loaned the money in the first place, who do you blame - the people that took out the loans without working out how they were going to pay it back or the people that lent the money you asked for?


Anyone can go in a bank and ask for a loan.....should the banks provide the loans? Who do you blame? The one who asks, or the one who looks up and says , sucker if ya can't pay back i repossess the house, the sofa the tv and the car, sell it off cheaply and wait for the rest to be paid of with hey lets say high usurious interest rates?
A lot of people got themselves suckered in to keep up with the Joneses or because it is the only way to ever get a house. Throw in loss of job and income and they are buggered.

However the bank, in the business of dealing with money, run by peoples with big degrees in money lending, should have evaluated the risk and said sorry mate no can do?

Loan sharks this is how they behaved.

I am getting a bit tired of this austerity bull shit. it is punishing those that have not gambled more than those that have. How many times will the citizenry to be called upon to bail out international Money Lender?

Greece should tell the European Union as in Germany/France to get lost - btw. has anyone asked the populace of Germany/France if they would like to bail out Greece? Frankly I doubt.
Bring back the Drachme, make their own products again attractive and start providing for their own people first, and then the rest.

[Voltaire]

The Greeks ( Govt) blagged their way into the EU got lots of 'free' money and their governments are totally corrupt. They got Billions of EU money...you need to sell a lot of olives to pay for that.
I was there in 04 a petrol was 75 Euro cents.....in Northern Europe it was over 1 euro....Govt Subsidies to keep the people placid....works for a while.
I was living in Ireland and it was pretty obvious that it was all based on American companies exploiting the " made in Ireland' to get access to the EU.....worked in lots of US companies in the Cork area.... and Irish politics is also run off cronyism and backhanders.
The sad part is its the man in the street who gets screwed as the polys and their cronies have all their dosh salted away....pricks.
New Zealand may never reach the heady highs but it don't plummet like the Euro paper tiger economies.

[mashman]

Its a bit like taking on a 110% mortgage on a property you can´t really afford, finance on that new sofa, TV, car because you want it right now and can´t wait or be bothered to save up for it, maxing out your credit card on eating out and drinks - then finding out that you cant actually pay back the money people loaned you, so the bank gives you a bigger (consolidation) loan to pay back the money you shouldn´t have borrowed in the first place over a longer period. :blink: Sounds a lot like many peoples personal financial situations, they need to take a share of the blame as well. Anyone thats taken out loans they couldn´t afford are just as guilty as the banks that lent it to them, the banks should never have agreed to lend it to them in the first place. Just as Greece should never have been loaned the money in the first place, who do you blame - the people that took out the loans without working out how they were going to pay it back or the people that lent the money you asked for? Nobody forced Greece to borrow huge amounts of money, its sad that joe public is taking the majority of the hardship but a large percentage of joe public isn´t guilt free in this.

Who says they couldn't afford it at the time? Then along comes the Bank police, slashes the amount of money that's borrowed, ramps up the interest rate, imposes conditions that are completely unreasonable for 99% of the population which ends in utter chaos. I wholly blame the banks, they are custodians of money and the cost of money. If they're gonna lend it, they should be prepared to lose it the same as everyone else. I'm not saying people aren't pushing the boundaries of affordability, but they could afford it before the banks got in to trouble, panicked and cut off the money supply plunging the world into recession. There is no other reason for it. Once the money supply dried up noone could borrow a thing (we know that's how the world works, borrow borrow borrow) and we end up with a Greece to instill enough fear to push the ESM through, which is total and utter insanity for 99% of the population of the Globe, let alone Greece. The banks are to blame for turning the tap off, plain and simple.

I fuckin detest this system with a passion!!!!!!!!!!

[jonbuoy]

Anyone can go in a bank and ask for a loan.....should the banks provide the loans? Who do you blame? The one who asks, or the one who looks up and says , sucker if ya can't pay back i repossess the house, the sofa the tv and the car, sell it off cheaply and wait for the rest to be paid of with hey lets say high usurious interest rates?
A lot of people got themselves suckered in to keep up with the Joneses or because it is the only way to ever get a house. Throw in loss of job and income and they are buggered.

However the bank, in the business of dealing with money, run by peoples with big degrees in money lending, should have evaluated the risk and said sorry mate no can do?

Loan sharks this is how they behaved.

I am getting a bit tired of this austerity bull shit. it is punishing those that have not gambled more than those that have. How many times will the citizenry to be called upon to bail out international Money Lender?

Greece should tell the European Union as in Germany/France to get lost - btw. has anyone asked the populace of Germany/France if they would like to bail out Greece? Frankly I doubt.
Bring back the Drachme, make their own products again attractive and start providing for their own people first, and then the rest.


Exactly BOTH are to blame, suckered in to keep up with the jonses - so you only bought that new TV because your neighbour got one?? How retarded is that?


Who says they couldn't afford it at the time? Then along comes the Bank police, slashes the amount of money that's borrowed, ramps up the interest rate, imposes conditions that are completely unreasonable for 99% of the population which ends in utter chaos. I wholly blame the banks, they are custodians of money and the cost of money. If they're gonna lend it, they should be prepared to lose it the same as everyone else. I'm not saying people aren't pushing the boundaries of affordability, but they could afford it before the banks got in to trouble, panicked and cut off the money supply plunging the world into recession. There is no other reason for it. Once the money supply dried up noone could borrow a thing (we know that's how the world works, borrow borrow borrow) and we end up with a Greece to instill enough fear to push the ESM through, which is total and utter insanity for 99% of the population of the Globe, let alone Greece. The banks are to blame for turning the tap off, plain and simple.

I fuckin detest this system with a passion!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the whole point of loans - interests rates change - thats why your supposed to work out if you can really afford to borrow money if the worst happens in 5 or 10 years, banks used to be very conservative with the amount they would lend and people themselves were more conservative about how much they were prepared to borrow. Not all banks went crazy some still stuck by their lending criteria, those are the ones in a strong position now. Some banks opened the doors to 110% mortgages which meant their was a higher demand for property which pushed the prices up. This made it un-affordable for some people who were saving for deposits to keep their deposit savings in line with house prices and before you know it they have to have a 100% or 110% mortgage. The fact is bankers werent the only people with their heads in the feeding troughs, millions of Greeks had their hands in the cookie jar, millions of people elsewhere also got fat on cheap credit buy now pay later schemes. Banks arent the custodians of your money, YOU are.

[mashman]

Thats the whole point of loans - interests rates change - thats why your supposed to work out if you can really afford to borrow money if the worst happens in 5 or 10 years, banks used to be very conservative with the amount they would lend and people themselves were more conservative about how much they were prepared to borrow. Not all banks went crazy some still stuck by their lending criteria, those are the ones in a strong position now. Some banks opened the doors to 110% mortgages which meant their was a higher demand for property which pushed the prices up. This made it un-affordable for some people who were saving for deposits to keep their deposit savings in line with house prices and before you know it they have to have a 100% or 110% mortgage. The fact is bankers werent the only people with their heads in the feeding troughs, millions of Greeks had their hands in the cookie jar, millions of people elsewhere also got fat on cheap credit buy now pay later schemes. Banks arent the custodians of your money, YOU are.

I agree with you... people should be able to balance their budget etc... but they don't. Govts should be tighter on taxation rules, but they're not. Banks should not switch off the money supply because it's obvious what happens, but they do and that's not being strict with lending criteria, that's culling the economy. The ECB recently said it had unlimited money at 1% to lend, why didn't they do that 2 years ago? Because there was no new money sanctioned to be made available, the tap was turned off. Yes there are millions of people who wouldn't be able to pay off their debts if they lost their jobs or took a drastic cut in salary, but that isn't their choice, they don't ask to have their money devalued. You can't have economic growth without new money and that money is authorised in some grubby little office somewhere for people to squabble over. Banks are the custodians of how much your money is worth. You could wake up tomorrow to find your investments worth nothing.

[blue rider]

Exactly BOTH are to blame, suckered in to keep up with the jonses - so you only bought that new TV because your neighbour got one?? How retarded is that?

i have the most pathetic tv in the world......however we have a society that forces people to keep up inclusive the tvs,....whats that crap i hear about digital only thingys....god i don't even know the terms for it.
my bke i paid cash....i actually saved for it....but then i am a middle aged german broad...we do safe, credit cards are really fucking hard to get to get there, I know pathetic.
I have not yet bought a house, because I don't count on retiring in ffn auckland, is to smoky n hazy here, but buying is in many cases cheeper if ya can sell the box when ya don't need it anymore.
Have no car, how is one going to work?
no we are a society that lives on credit, in many places a credit rating is needed to get anything done....so again.

Thats the whole point of loans - interests rates change - thats why your supposed to work out if you can really afford to borrow money if the worst happens in 5 or 10 years, banks used to be very conservative with the amount they would lend and people themselves were more conservative about how much they were prepared to borrow. Not all banks went crazy some still stuck by their lending criteria, those are the ones in a strong position now. Some banks opened the doors to 110% mortgages which meant their was a higher demand for property which pushed the prices up. This made it un-affordable for some people who were saving for deposits to keep their deposit savings in line with house prices and before you know it they have to have a 100% or 110% mortgage. The fact is bankers werent the only people with their heads in the feeding troughs, millions of Greeks had their hands in the cookie jar, millions of people elsewhere also got fat on cheap credit buy now pay later schemes. Banks arent the custodians of your money, YOU are.

when schools start teaching how to budget, read the fine print, understand banking legalese and other such things i believe it. however looking at the US.....not even the banker understood what they sold themselves...Triple A anyone. Banks, local and State Governments, Financial Institutions/Retirement funds etc all went to gamble and lost. And it is for Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary Consumer to bail them out. Sure YeaH tui

I am only custodian of my cash....and its safer in my mattress than in the bank, brings the same interest too as I don't have to pay fees to use it.

[mashman]

I am only custodian of my cash....and its safer in my mattress than in the bank, brings the same interest too as I don't have to pay fees to use it.

Gotta say I have a new found interest in your mattress too :blip:

[blue rider]

Gotta say I have a new found interest in your mattress too :blip:

sorry mate, i don't share....:devil2:

[SPman]

Good comment on here - http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2012/02/the-killing-of-greece/


What makes the situation completely surreal are the numbers. Greek debt in 2008 was approximately 260bn Euro. The first bailout was 110bn, the current one, that appears to be tearing the country apart, is 130bn. Add in the PSI+ haircut of approximately 100bn ( after sweetener deduction ) and you realised that Europe could have simply paid the entire bill in 2008 and saved itself 80bn Euro. Ok, that is an oversimplification of the problem but you can see my point.
However now, after 340bn Euros, Greece still has an unmanageable debt, is in a far worse position than it was 3 years ago and it appears the country itself is coming apart at the seams.

[Indiana_Jones]

Fun times ahead?

https://thewisdomofgold.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/inflation-1923.jpg

-Indy

[blue rider]

came across this one the other day


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVE72Ae82Tw&feature=related

let's not mention the evil D word.....

[puddytat]

My partner & I back in the late '80's, stripped bare the inside of a grand old building on the coast at Kuhlinsborn in the former DDR (East Germany),where once officials of both the Nazi party & later the Russian/German Communists officials had had thier summer holidays by the seaside.....
It was quite astounding the amount of cash that we found stashed all through the building, behind panelling, under floors, in the eaves....
Systems come, systems go.....

[flyingcrocodile46]

IMO the Greeks are being whiney arsed cry babies. The solution to their problems is to HTFU and start working harder (or working - period, in most cases) so they can pay proper taxes. As a whole they have had it too easy for too long. The sooner they man up to themselves the better for all.

[Brian d marge]

IMO the Greeks are being whiney arsed cry babies. The solution to their problems is to HTFU and start working harder (or working - period, in most cases) so they can pay proper taxes. As a whole they have had it too easy for too long. The sooner they man up to themselves the better for all.
in some ways you are right , bad management ( banks were giving away money , we all have been there !) , but its the average joe who will suffer , and poverty aint nice , trust me on this one

Who is the averge joe ,,,, its YOU

have a nice job , been working there for twenty years ? we ccan give it a name , Feltex ? next morning gone , bad management , who cares , try whining to your bank , but hey itd get a new job time , anything will do ,,,,sorry old fella there aint much call for 54 year old weavers , any other skills??? how about retraining ?

Stephen

[flyingcrocodile46]

in some ways you are right , bad management ( banks were giving away money , we all have been there !) , but its the average joe who will suffer , and poverty aint nice , trust me on this one

Who is the averge joe ,,,, its YOU

have a nice job , been working there for twenty years ? we ccan give it a name , Feltex ? next morning gone , bad management , who cares , try whining to your bank , but hey itd get a new job time , anything will do ,,,,sorry old fella there aint much call for 54 year old weavers , any other skills??? how about retraining ?

Stephen

I know life is hard and the wrong people often pay the most, (we all see it in every tax dollar we pay IMO) but the fact of the matter is crying and denial doesn't fix anything. It's all about moving forward... you did (one way or another) and everyone else does. You get on board or sink and drown, that's how life is and allways has been.

[blue rider]

and another good read

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/13/a-death-sentence-for-greece/

[Brian d marge]

I know life is hard and the wrong people often pay the most, (we all see it in every tax dollar we pay IMO) but the fact of the matter is crying and denial doesn't fix anything. It's all about moving forward... you did (one way or another) and everyone else does. You get on board or sink and drown, that's how life is and allways has been.

Yup thats true , I used the time honored , buggering off technique , ( actually I have been travelling since I was 16 but here I stay ....

I feel the need for a old , but timely song I have posted before

an oldie but a goodie

The buggering off song ......

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/c4SJ0xR2_bQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[mashman]

and another good read

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/13/a-death-sentence-for-greece/

I can't quite convey how sad and angry that makes me. I fully understand why the people are out on the streets looking for answers. Govt for the people by the people now becomes Govt for the corporate by the corporates... but it's ok, it's just Greece and it's their own fault :mad:

[mashman]

I know life is hard and the wrong people often pay the most, (we all see it in every tax dollar we pay IMO) but the fact of the matter is crying and denial doesn't fix anything. It's all about moving forward... you did (one way or another) and everyone else does. You get on board or sink and drown, that's how life is and allways has been.

I would dearly love to change that from being the norm. Those who believe in this financial system truly need their heads read. We can send billions of $$$ of junk into space, but we can't provide a well paying job for everyone. Something is drastically wrong somewhere and Greece highlights it perfectly. Sure we should be able to suffer life's little setbacks, but where your country goes tits how do you do that? Especially when your representatives aren't the ones in control of your country. Insanity!!!!!!!!!!

[mashman]

GREEK DEFAULT EXCLUSIVE: SENIOR US BANKERS GIVEN EXPLICIT TIMETABLE FOR ATHENS DEFAULT (http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/greek-default-exclusive-senior-us-bankers-given-explicit-timetable-for-athens-default/)... make your own minds up, but some fuckers are up to something at the expense of the Greek people :facepalm:... can't wait for it to be our turn!

[Coldrider]

nah the greeks got a fresh loan last week, the conditions attached are practically law, if there is a next default they are off the euro, not that many of them would get a job.

[Oscar]

GREEK DEFAULT EXCLUSIVE: SENIOR US BANKERS GIVEN EXPLICIT TIMETABLE FOR ATHENS DEFAULT (http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/greek-default-exclusive-senior-us-bankers-given-explicit-timetable-for-athens-default/)... make your own minds up, but some fuckers are up to something at the expense of the Greek people :facepalm:... can't wait for it to be our turn!

Why would it be our turn?
When did we lie through our teeth to get into the EU?
When did we adopt the Euro as a currency?

[mashman]

nah the greeks got a fresh loan last week, the conditions attached are practically law, if there is a next default they are off the euro, not that many of them would get a job.

There's still time as Europe is supposed to be on the brink of another recession... I wouldn't put anything past the banks.

[mashman]

Why would it be our turn?
When did we lie through our teeth to get into the EU?
When did we adopt the Euro as a currency?

Didn't you get the memo?