Personal responsibility goes out the window...

[R6_kid]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10644213

WOW! A doctor with a son who went to a fancy private school has failed to educate her son on the dangers of stealing grandmas vodka and drinking the whole bottle is now telling John Key he needs to do his job and make it harder to get alcohol?

Where was she when this was happening? Where was the family/friends that should have been looking after him after he put away a 1L bottle of Vodka?

Why is this the governments fault? The vodka was in the cupboard at someones house, and wasn't kept out of reach to a group of under-age drinkers at an 18th birthday party...

Her letter raves on about assualt, rape and binge drinking. These are cultural issues, and I'd say that not all rapes and assaults are related to alcohol abuse. It is a parents responsibility to instil morals and values in their children such that it should not be the schools, or the Goverments problem to deal with these social delinquents who fail to understand what acceptable behaviour is - and yet the Goverment and school are the ones that end up doing so.

In most cases alcohol abuse by under-age youths is learnt behavour from what they have observed their own parents and family doing - or picked up from other people in the cases where their parents and family have failed to educate them on what acceptable alcohol use is.

[mashman]

The problem is that in order to properly "educate" your child you need to get them shitfaced. That means that the parent has to break the law... LMAO @ personal responsibility in 15 - 16 yr olds...

[rainman]

Um, she's not the kid's mother. Just has a kid at the same school, and an opinion, and is a doctor, so has some cred for some media exposure.

I think she's right. If you remove all regulations (the other extreme to what she's proposing) more kids would drink themselves to death - how many have any self-control at that age? I didn't, not even when I was much older. More regulations won't stop everything like this happening, to be sure, but perhaps they'll discourage it a bit.

Got any better suggestions to fix the culture here?

[Mully]

Um, she's not the kid's mother. Just has a kid at the same school, and an opinion, and is a doctor, so has some cred for some media exposure.

Yeah - what he said.

[phill-k]

Agree totally R6 - blinged
rainman it comes down to parent responsibility fair and square, its time we stopped blaming others for our own failings!!!

[firefighter]

observed their own parents and family doing - or picked up from other people in the cases where their parents and family have failed to educate them on what acceptable alcohol use is.

Disagree. I'd have to say it's picked up from movies, like American Pie, (not calling it the devil here!) and from their friends. I'd say most parents a reasonably responsible when it comes to this stuff. The "who can drink the most" shit is school yard stuff. He probably believed the over-heard tripe that goes around of "I finished a whole bottle of Jacks/Beam" and thought he would be ok.

[bogan]

sounds like she is jumping on the nanny state bandwagon. At some point people need to take personal responsibility, its up to the parents to decide when their children reach that stage, and to make sure they actually do reach that stage!

[p.dath]

Agree totally R6 - blinged
rainman it comes down to parent responsibility fair and square, its time we stopped blaming others for our own failings!!!

Not wishing to take any sides - but what do you do when the parents don't take resposnsibility? Accept the issues as a society or do something about it as a society?
The old "nanny state" versus "keep the Government out of my life" scenario.

[firefighter]

I think she's right. If you remove all regulations (the other extreme to what she's proposing) more kids would drink themselves to death - how many have any self-control at that age? I didn't, not even when I was much older. More regulations won't stop everything like this happening, to be sure, but perhaps they'll discourage it a bit.

I KNOW she is wrong. I was the only one whole could just get away with buying alcohol in my group. We drank a lot, we are all still alive. Whenever we could'nt get booze, we found a way. Usually by doing the same thing, and stealing a bottle from someones parents, or bribing someone to buy it for us.

More rules makes it harder. It wo'nt even slightly discourage a damn thing.

[onearmedbandit]

Got any better suggestions to fix the culture here?

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but certain European countries (I believe France may be one of them) where children are introduced to alcohol at a younger age in a controled environment have a much lower incidence of 'binge drinking' and other social harms that abuse brings. Maybe by putting it up on the top shelf and keeping it out of their reach, while all the wise adults enjoy themselves by indulging, has the exact opposite effect than what we hoped for.

[firefighter]

Accept the issues as a society or do something about it as a society?.

You know, I think the smartest way of dealing with the issue of stupid people killing themselves because they are well.....stupid, is to either let them do it, or educate them that sculling a bottle of vodka will kill you.

You ca'nt tell kids that "drinking is bad. m,kay." Actually showing evidence of adults who have killed themselves from drinking in excess is about all that can be done. The rest is up to the individual.

I truely beleive that, other that making alcohol illegal, this is the only real solution.

You ca'nt make a horse drink the water.

[phill-k]

p.dath I take your point however why do we have to create "rules" all the time for the lowest common denominator, especially rules that then penalise everyone else.
I love the fact the headmaster and others have all come out and said what a great person this child was - he lied to his parents, and stole from his grandmother, at sixteen he obviously was not responsible enough, or hadn't yet grasped right and wrong and thus should not have had the freedom to do as he was. The parents should have scrutinised his stated intentions more throughly, a simple phone call to the supposed parents where he was staying for the night, thats what my mum used to do.

[Latte]

Kids these days seem to be told what they can and can't do from day 1. They have little opportunity to learn limits/boundaries, and how to test them safely , and results from stepping over them. Then when they become young adults, and have a lot more freedom, without the skills to meter it , they reach and cross limits with much worse results.

Each subsequent generation seems to have relied less on common sense, and more on regulation than the one prior. I beleive this "relates" to the direction society is taking (vicious cycle etc).

"All of the above is my opinion only - but it's right (of course)"

[mashman]

p.dath I take your point however why do we have to create "rules" all the time for the lowest common denominator, especially rules that then penalise everyone else.
I love the fact the headmaster and others have all come out and said what a great person this child was - he lied to his parents, and stole from his grandmother, at sixteen he obviously was not responsible enough, or hadn't yet grasped right and wrong and thus should not have had the freedom to do as he was. The parents should have scrutinised his stated intentions more throughly, a simple phone call to the supposed parents where he was staying for the night, thats what my mum used to do.

And then have the kids throw it in the face of the parents that they aren't trusting them? Yeah i can see that working well with hormonal teenagers... just a little peer pressure gone wrong

[firefighter]

said what a great person this child was - he lied to his parents, and stole from his grandmother, at sixteen he obviously was not responsible enough, or hadn't yet grasped right and wrong and thus should not have had the freedom to do as he was..

Cummon. That's a pretty unfair summation of the kid. I'd say he probably was a really nice kid, and probably had a pretty bright future. I doubt he had a callous bone in his body. He stole a bottle of vodka, ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... !!!! You never steal the odd bits of booze off the olds and tell the odd fib? That does'nt make him a bad kid, it makes him the same as every other kid, just by the sounds of it, for the first time in his life!

I have read the first half of that fuddy duddies letter. What a pile of tripe. Her so called teaching or messages she tries to get through about "alcohol abuse" will be laughed at by teenagers.

As I stated earlier, teaching how NOT to drink, ie, a sculled bottled of vodka WILL kill you unless you are very lucky, will probably sink in more than "binge drinking is'nt cool" and "drinking is for fools yawl!". I bet she comes up with stupid catch phrases that the kids will take the piss out of as they play circle of death/around the world/4 kings etc........

[mashman]

Maybe by putting it up on the top shelf and keeping it out of their reach, ... I remember I couldn't figure out how to use a ladder at 15 :shifty:

[rainman]

sounds like she is jumping on the nanny state bandwagon. At some point people need to take personal responsibility, its up to the parents to decide when their children reach that stage, and to make sure they actually do reach that stage!

Good satire!


I KNOW she is wrong. I was the only one whole could just get away with buying alcohol in my group. We drank a lot, we are all still alive. Whenever we could'nt get booze, we found a way. Usually by doing the same thing, and stealing a bottle from someones parents, or bribing someone to buy it for us.

More rules makes it harder. It wo'nt even slightly discourage a damn thing.

You misunderstand my point. You can't legislate to stop (particularly kids) stupidity, but more regs does make it harder.


From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but certain European countries (I believe France may be one of them) where children are introduced to alcohol at a younger age in a controled environment have a much lower incidence of 'binge drinking' and other social harms that abuse brings. Maybe by putting it up on the top shelf and keeping it out of their reach, while all the wise adults enjoy themselves by indulging, has the exact opposite effect than what we hoped for.

I'd agree with that. My mum was very anti-booze, for religious reasons, so first chance I got I binged and misbehaved. Our kids have been exposed to modest amounts of alcohol as part of normal life and are much more balanced than me. Part of that might be me getting them to taste my homebrew, though - put them off for life. Of course the chief problem with this approach is it takes a generation to work through the system.


You know, I think the smartest way of dealing with the issue of stupid people killing themselves because they are well.....stupid, is to either let them do it, or educate them that sculling a bottle of vodka will kill you.

You ca'nt tell kids that "drinking is bad. m,kay." Actually showing evidence of adults who have killed themselves from drinking in excess is about all that can be done. The rest is up to the individual.

Problem is fewer adults drink themselves (literally) to death as they are physically bigger than the kids. Heaps of adults kill themselves (and others) as a result of being drunk, and the educational campaigns are incessant - but all that information still doesn't work. You have to hit them in the pocket, or make escapism uncool. Good luck with that.

[Maha]

Kids these days seem to be told what they can and can't do from day 1. They have little opportunity to learn limits/boundaries, and how to test them safely , and results from stepping over them. Then when they become young adults, and have a lot more freedom, without the skills to meter it , they reach and cross limits with much worse results.

Each subsequent generation seems to have relied less on common sense, and more on regulation than the one prior. I beleive this "relates" to the direction society is taking (vicious cycle etc).

"All of the above is my opinion only - but it's right (of course)"

These days?
I was born in 1962 and it was happening then. I new exactly what was right and what was wrong.
And heres the irony, I still do!
Yes I bent a few rules a little as a teenager (sometimes to breaking point) who didn't?
I dont beleive my parents ever blamed the then Government about any wrong doing I did.
The only notiable difference is, I never died as a result of my 'rule bending' whatever that may have been. I also knew my limits and boundries.

Thanks Mum and Dad.

[phill-k]

to quote the funnyman on TV - what is he a psychiatrist

You are not your kids friend you are their protector, provider and carer, its sometimes called tough love. If you choose to have them take care of them, don't blame your failings on others, thats whats gone wrong in this country everyone keeps looking to pass the blame.

[neels]

The problem is that in order to properly "educate" your child you need to get them shitfaced. That means that the parent has to break the law... LMAO @ personal responsibility in 15 - 16 yr olds...It's not breaking the law for parents to supply their children with alcohol.

We are happy enough for our under 18 kids to have a drink when the occasion is appropriate, sometimes they do and unbelievable as it may seem sometimes they aren't interested, perhaps because it is available they don't feel the need to drink every time they have the opportunity.

And we have set the example of how to drink responsibly, and they have on occasion also observed how not to, hopefully they are learning something along the way

[firefighter]

You misunderstand my point. You can't legislate to stop (particularly kids) stupidity, but more regs does make it harder.

It only makes it harder for those legally able to purchase the stuff. What actual regs could or would you suggest? As far as I can tell it would only serve as a hassle for those of us who survived to legal age.......Hell I get pissed off enough at the parents dropping their fucken kids off instead of making them walk/ride a bike/catch the bus like I had to, and clogging up the damn roads on the way to work. Hobby road is shit in the morning, until you pass the god-damn school then it opens up straight away. (in school holidays I get to work 30-40 mins earlier if i'm in the cage/bike does'nt matter so much) I'm already inconvenienced because of other peoples kids, if I have to start locking up my booze i'll start yelling and throwing bricks at every parent I see!


Problem is fewer adults drink themselves (literally) to death as they are physically bigger than the kids.

Well obviously. That's why when you talk to kids, you just give the stuff they'll take in. Like "scull this whole bottle in one go, and you'll die like this guy did".

Message delivered. It's now up to the kids to decide whether they wanna live or die. Anymore spoon feeding that that A) is'nt listened to, and B) takes away common sense.

[Edbear]

This particular case is sad, as from the TV interviews it appears the parents and the hosts did everything right. But boys will be boys and while this is always going to be true, there are going to be consequences. I was classed as a "goody goody" as a teenager, yet there but for the... it could have been me. I succumbed to older peer pressure and drove drunk a couple of times and was so sick I swore never again! Sixteen is not an age of strength for personal responsibility in the main. My parents rarely drank, the occaisional beer or wine but my peers were drunkards and rebels.

I can accept the boy did not intend to get paralytic or die and his friends would have had no idea of the concept of alcohol poisioning either. Kids don't think, and don't have the knowledge or experience to make good judgement calls, at that age they need their parents and responsible adults, or at least responsible older friends around.

We don't know how much education his parents gave him growing up, sometimes, it is simply as a friend of his said on the news, that he wanted to do something "bad" for a change and getting drunk was as "bad" as he thought.

It is a tragedy that may not have been easily preventable and I feel for his family and friends. As father to three grown up children I know what it takes to parent and I am ever grateful that my kids are mature and responsible and such that I can be proud of.

My 2c.

[mashman]

It's not breaking the law for parents to supply their children with alcohol.

We are happy enough for our under 18 kids to have a drink when the occasion is appropriate, sometimes they do and unbelievable as it may seem sometimes they aren't interested, perhaps because it is available they don't feel the need to drink every time they have the opportunity.

And we have set the example of how to drink responsibly, and they have on occasion also observed how not to, hopefully they are learning something along the way

Agreed. What I meant was, getting the "children" absolutely legless... if they don't learn what their limits are, they won't know when they're near them and hence may well OD and kill themselves... same as any other drug... who better to take them to that limit than their parents... I would have thought that would have been illegal?

[neels]

Agreed. What I meant was, getting the "children" absolutely legless... if they don't learn what their limits are, they won't know when they're near them and hence may well OD and kill themselves... same as any other drug... who better to take them to that limit than their parents... I would have thought that would have been illegal?If you let them drink themselves to death, then probably yes. But allowing them to drink to the point that they will learn that it hurts the next day and they can't remember all the stupid shit they did, and keeping an eye on them to make sure they're OK, hopefully not.

[Tank]

They talk about binge drinking in NZ - what surprised me was "what is binge drinking"

The answer - "The New Zealand health service classifies Binge Drinking as anytime a person consumes 5 or more standard drinks in a sitting."

Yep - sit down in a evening and drink 5 beers - if even over 5 - 6 hours - you are a binge drinker in the eyes of the NZ G'ment.

Fuck - I call that a good lunch.

Do you really want people like that to legislate against alcohol?

[Bald Eagle]

An inevitable outcome of the swinging rights versus responsibilities pendulum.

[phill-k]

Agree tank thats fours'es at our place but we call it personal responsibility not binging- for a 16 yr old its called parental responsibility, just imagine how things would change if the kids parents were now liable to be charged with a crime, you know not keeping him on a lead or something - involuntary manslaughter, perhaps thats the sort of "rule" they should be asking uncle nanny john for!!

[Mudfart]

teaching kids their boundaries used to come in the form of a good smack, or taking it further a good hiding. now its un pc to touch kids etc, and yes we are accepting of pc and all that ghay shit, but beware it comes with consequences. When society is forced to change its rules, there arent ONLY good consequences, there will always be a negative offset. This is the Yin-Yang principle.
I can prove this.
If everytime society improved itself only, with no negativity, then surely by now we would be utopian, with absolute harmony, making everyone happy all of the time?.
If the answer is no, then three further questions: How far away from it are we, and are we any closer?
And: how fucked up are we to be so far away from it?.
God help the old and infirmed when I am that age, coz society is going to treat them worse than they already do.

[Latte]

These days?
I was born in 1962 and it was happening then. I new exactly what was right and what was wrong.
And heres the irony, I still do!
Yes I bent a few rules a little as a teenager (sometimes to breaking point) who didn't?
I dont beleive my parents ever blamed the then Government about any wrong doing I did.
The only notiable difference is, I never died as a result of my 'rule bending' whatever that may have been. I also knew my limits and boundries.

Thanks Mum and Dad.


Actually I was trying to say the same thing..... but re reading my post I see how badly it was put across :D As you were.

[mashman]

Agree tank thats fours'es at our place but we call it personal responsibility not binging- for a 16 yr old its called parental responsibility, just imagine how things would change if the kids parents were now liable to be charged with a crime, you know not keeping him on a lead or something - involuntary manslaughter, perhaps thats the sort of "rule" they should be asking uncle nanny john for!!

That's just utterly fuckin rediculous. They tried it with Truancy in the UK... your kid doesn't go to school, you get jailed... Truancy rates are still rising... you miss the fact that the kids may hate their parents because of the rules and regs laid down and enforced like laws... by all means be a parent and potentially get jailed for bad parenting... but how do you know that a kid skivin school is lack of parental supervision? Some people have to work to survive you know!!!!!!!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/feb/12/truancy-parents-jail

These "initiatives" have got to be some of the most ill conceived i've ever seen...

[rachprice]

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but certain European countries (I believe France may be one of them) where children are introduced to alcohol at a younger age in a controled environment have a much lower incidence of 'binge drinking' and other social harms that abuse brings. Maybe by putting it up on the top shelf and keeping it out of their reach, while all the wise adults enjoy themselves by indulging, has the exact opposite effect than what we hoped for.

Yeah you are right, particularly in Italy!
I had some Italian friends whose sisters at about 4/5yrs were drinking a little wine with dinner, there is not problem with alcohol now they are older

[Indiana_Jones]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10644213

WOW! A doctor with a son who went to a fancy private school has failed to educate her son on the dangers of stealing grandmas vodka and drinking the whole bottle is now telling John Key he needs to do his job and make it harder to get alcohol?


<img src="http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/9/9f/LSATSB-Sawnoffs3.JPG/500px-LSATSB-Sawnoffs3.JPG">

"....public school boys, soft as shite"

-Indy

[Genie]

Parenting starts the moment we birth them...not at 13/14/15, it's about time parents woke up and instilled good old tradtional values and I've always thought all school leavers should have compulsary 6 weeks basic training in the army...might sort some of the shit out that crap parents have put in!!!!!

[oldrider]

Um, she's not the kid's mother. Just has a kid at the same school, and an opinion, and is a doctor, so has some cred for some media exposure.

I think she's right. If you remove all regulations (the other extreme to what she's proposing) more kids would drink themselves to death - how many have any self-control at that age? I didn't, not even when I was much older. More regulations won't stop everything like this happening, to be sure, but perhaps they'll discourage it a bit.

Got any better suggestions to fix the culture here?

Ok, I will make a suggestion.

Stop punishing the kids who get it right and don't cause any problems!

Then focus on sorting out the kids that get it wrong! ( I believe that they are the minority)

How's that for starters? (Serious suggestion, not trying to be a smart arse here!)

[huff3r]

Cummon. That's a pretty unfair summation of the kid. I'd say he probably was a really nice kid, and probably had a pretty bright future. I doubt he had a callous bone in his body. He stole a bottle of vodka, ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... !!!! You never steal the odd bits of booze off the olds and tell the odd fib? That does'nt make him a bad kid, it makes him the same as every other kid, just by the sounds of it, for the first time in his life!



Umm... actually i didnt. Stealing booze? From family? Nope thats wrong. Stealing anything is wrong. Its all about bringing them up right, and in the case of the boarding school it kind of has to be up to the teachers, as parents are not really involved.

Oh, and at 16 I didnt drink. I had maybe 2 beers the entire year, same for 17, then at 18 was when i started. Because i have a respect for the laws of my country, instilled in me by my parents when i was a kid, and because I have respect for alcohol and the damage it can do, taught to me at school. (Can't speak for the NZ curriculum however as i was educated in NZ, Singapore and Thailand)

[huff3r]

Ok, I will make a suggestion.

Stop punishing the kids who get it right and don't cause any problems!

Then focus on sorting out the kids that get it wrong! ( I believe that they are the minority)

How's that for starters? (Serious suggestion, not trying to be a smart arse here!)

I agree with this idea!! Leave me be!! Focus on the little wee 16yr-old drunks like all my work-mates!! :lol:

[CookMySock]

The kid should have been inside that club. Supervised. I know the law says they can't, but what would have been safer in this situation?


Steve

[Mom]

My heart goes out to the family of that young boy that died. I wont give him a name on here. Too friggen sad for all affected by this terrible event.

He is just an example of how this generation of parents are letting their kids down. I dont much care if you are the beneficiary of a private school education or you had to rough it at your local high school, as parents we have a responsibility to instill a few values in our kids. Top of that list for me and mine is SELF RESPECT. He appeared to be a little fella too, would not take too much alcohol to do damge to that young body.

I am sure that the parents of this little fella loved him dearly, but they elected to place his formative years at a boarding school. Now, I am not dissing the school, or that decision either, we have had a daughter in a boarding situation, they do what they can. Rules are made and respected, certainly in this instance they were. This youngster told the same porkie I am sure most of us have told at that stage of our lives, difference is, he paid for his porky with his life.

The question is why the hell did he feel he needed to steal booze from his nana and scull it before going to a party? Where was the education about the dangers of booze to a young body? Where were the adults supervising this party when he arrived after drinking all this booze? Why did he feel he had to drink this amount of booze to be cool. So many questions, none of which will bring this young man back.

There was a young bloke that died up here a couple of years ago. A little bit older but still got seriously drunk and no one decided to look out for him. He was not driving, he was on a push bike. Left a party and never arrived home. ABOUT A WEEK LATER HIS BODY POPPED UP OUT OF THE RIVER WHERE HE HAD FALLEN. Opps CAPS, but I wont change it. He died as a result of excessive drinking and no one registered it.

We MUST instil an enormous sense of self respect in our kids. The kind of self respect that they can fall back on and know they dont need to bow to peer pressure. The kind of self respect that allows them to chose friends that will laugh like hell at them when they do get pissed and spin and spew, that would never encourage them to drink dangerously, and the ones that will look after them if they do make a miscalculation in what they have consumed, and not leave them to die. So very sad.

[Tank]

The kid should have been inside that club. Supervised. I know the law says they can't, but what would have been safer in this situation?


Steve

Why? (and Im not picking at you in this thread - its too serious for that) The kid is responsible for himself. Why should others have to break the law - put their licence / business / club at risk simply on the off chance that some underaged kid might decide to drink to a point that he could (and in this case did) die?

Should any bar open for any kid that want to go get pissed? Where do you draw the line - 15? 12? 7?

I feel for his family, his friends and the people who tried to help him - but its just another case of Darwinism. I wish it didnt happen - but people will do stupid stuff - and some will die doing it. Its not for the g'ment to fix (as per OPs link) - its for people to be responsible for themselves and not doing stupid shit.

[Dave Lobster]

And then have the kids throw it in the face of the parents that they aren't trusting them? Yeah i can see that working well with hormonal teenagers...

If they're telling lies, why should you trust them or even let them out of the house?

[Mom]

If they're telling lies, why should you trust them or even let them out of the house?

I had a talk with my youngest daughter today about this. She is 18, out of school and while not financially independant yet, very much independant every other way. Porkies are subjective. How the hell do you know they are telling them? I learned a few interesting things that my lovelies got up to tonight, I had no idea! I defy any of you to say you never did anything sneaky, or naughty when you were in those formative years.

So they tell a lie, you find them out, you punish them. I have had that scenario too. She punished herself much harsher than we did for letting us down, mind you she served some serious down time as a result of it. Then you let them go again. We have been lucky, it worked for us.

[schrodingers cat]

My heart goes out to the family of that young boy that died.


That said, give this dumbass boy a (posthumous) Darwin Award and stop with the hand wringing.

One hopes his peers will learn from this. I doubt it.

[peasea]

Parenting starts the moment we birth them...not at 13/14/15, it's about time parents woke up and instilled good old tradtional values and I've always thought all school leavers should have compulsary 6 weeks basic training in the army...might sort some of the shit out that crap parents have put in!!!!!

If they got basic training at home BEFORE they got to school they wouldn't need military training. (They probably wouldn't stab their teachers either.)

[peasea]

If they're telling lies, why should you trust them or even let them out of the house?

That's a hard one.

I've caught my kids telling porkies and I tell you what; they cringed and were apologetic and remorseful. I can handle a lot of crap but not lies. Some kids lie through their teeth, but why? I have found that if the relationship is solid from the beginning then they're up front about what they're up to, where they're going and who they're going with etc. I would imagine that the liars don't have a solid relationship with their parents, which is sad and dangerous, even (as in this case) fatal.

[firefighter]

Umm... actually i didnt. Stealing booze? From family? Nope thats wrong. Stealing anything is wrong.

Ok Jesus. By the way, who the fuck asked you?

Yep, I pinched heaps off the old man.......(maybe not heaps but enough) I think pinching the odd bit of booze off the olds is part of growing up.....! Did you have ANY fun as a kid? Or one of those kids that stayed home on friday and saturday nights? (surely)


Oh, and at 16 I didnt drink. I had maybe 2 beers the entire year, same for 17, then at 18 was when i started. Because i have a respect for the laws of my country, instilled in me by my parents when i was a kid, and because I have respect for alcohol and the damage it can do, taught to me at school. (Can't speak for the NZ curriculum however as i was educated in NZ, Singapore and Thailand)

Ohhh, so you had no friends.....! The fact that you were a geek does'nt mean everyone should be!

"I have respect fro the laws of my country...." You are trolling right?!!!! Are you really that much of a wowser?! Jesus even the Air Force is going to have too adventurous and naughty people for you to get on with!

I take it you've never, ever sped either!

[mashman]

If they're telling lies, why should you trust them or even let them out of the house?

You have to catch them telling lies first... I was really rather good at getting into shitloads of trouble and yet coming up smelling of roses, only to go out and do the same thing the next opportunity I had. A mate of mine was kept under lock and key... we used to pick him up at the end of his driveway after he'd slid out of his bedroom window... my sister did the boarding school thing (a royal boarding school no less) and they were constantly getting shitfaced, amongst other things, but our folks didn't know because she gave them no cause to suspect her... if "kids" don't want parents to know and are smart enough to know what they're doing (yet they still may drink themselves to death), the parents will never know... When i was kicked out of school it came as a complete shock to the family... they didn't suspect a thing because they were at work and I was at the house mid-day partying with some friends, i just had to make sure that the house was tidy and that i was on the school bus in the morning and then in the evening, who would know??? My parents had no reason not to trust me or my sister (not really, i was harmelss to everyone else, if not a little self-destructive (read having waaaaaaaaay too much fun) and my sister was studying hard 200 milesish away)... I abused my parents trust no end... yet they still trusted me (partially because they didn't know)...

To which end I will try to educate my 3 daughters as much as possible and then leave the rest up to them... all they'll need to know is that Dad will always be there for them irrespective of what they've done... I can do no more as they will be their own people some day and will have to make their own Moral choices...

[rainman]

Stop punishing the kids who get it right and don't cause any problems!
Then focus on sorting out the kids that get it wrong! ( I believe that they are the minority)
How's that for starters? (Serious suggestion, not trying to be a smart arse here!)

Hard to imagine you being a smart arse... :innocent: As to your suggestion: sure thing. How?

Perfectly targeted legislation is impossible.
Education campaigns aren't working.
Only remaining options are a) acceptance, b) regulation, c) taxation.


The kid is responsible for himself....its just another case of Darwinism.

Do you seriously think 16 year olds are fully responsible for themselves, and don't need a little help from time to time to not do brainstoppingly stupid things?


I think pinching the odd bit of booze off the olds is part of growing up.....! Did you have ANY fun as a kid? Or one of those kids that stayed home on friday and saturday nights? (surely)

"I have respect fro the laws of my country...." You are trolling right?!!!! Are you really that much of a wowser?!

Dunno, my nearly 16 year old doesn't drink and doesn't pinch booze off me, and he seems to have a happy and fulfilling social life. It is possible, you know. Maybe this is part of the culture of drinking we have - if you don't steal booze from your parents and get pissed on Fridays and Saturdays you're dissed as a wowser?
(Note I'm not saying my son is perfect and isn't ever going to do silly things - I certainly did, plenty - just that kids seem to be more comfortable being themselves these days).

And personally I'd be glad if more people had a bit of respect for the laws of the country (OK, most of them). Seems to me there's more upside than down to that proposition.

[Tank]

Do you seriously think 16 year olds are fully responsible for themselves, and don't need a little help from time to time to not do brainstoppingly stupid things?



of course they do. Just from their parents, friends etc - not the g'ment which is what this thread started out linking to.

[firefighter]

Dunno, my nearly 16 year old doesn't drink and doesn't pinch booze off me,

Give it a year! :lol:


It is possible, you know. Maybe this is part of the culture of drinking we have - if you don't steal booze from your parents and get pissed on Fridays and Saturdays you're dissed as a wowser?
(Note I'm not saying my son is perfect and isn't ever going to do silly things - I certainly did, plenty - just that kids seem to be more comfortable being themselves these days).

I foresaw this as being used against me! Ok to be clear, i'm not talking about stealing the liquor cabinet, i'm talking taking a little bit out of each and making rocket fuel.....hahahaha.... shit I was'nt that bad a kid was I?!! You know, now and then, and topping it up with water......then the old man tasting his watered down booze and kicking your ass....hahaha

It does'nt make you a wowser, but it does make me wonder where the sense of curiosity is in kids that do'nt want to get up to mischief....(ok, this is PC world, I mean mischief, not major crime here!) NO you do'nt have to drink at all. I was actually digging at the absolute cult-like attitude toward the law.

I did'nt go out every saturday, I was'nt allowed to, but I sure tried! Maybe I just had lots of badass friends? I do'nt think so. It was never really a big deal.

I would'nt dwell on the "drinking culture" thing. That term is over-used. It's "cool" to go out and party at that age......which is what it's all about right? Parties, friends, and good times. unless of course you wanna live in a bubble....

Teenagers around the world try to get drunk....it's not some mysterious N.Z problem.


And personally I'd be glad if more people had a bit of respect for the laws of the country (OK, most of them). Seems to me there's more upside than down to that proposition.

Of-course. But to the point where you forget you are a kid and do'nt want to have beer at a party with your mates?!!!! That not obeying the law.....that's cult'ish.

Was I the only person here who had a FUN/adventurous time in his teens and experimented with life?! Man it's the essence of life (Not drinking/trying new things your not allowed to do!)

A teenager drinking is hardly a major crimminal act for gods sake.

[huff3r]

Of-course. But to the point where you forget you are a kid and do'nt want to have beer at a party with your mates?!!!! That not obeying the law.....that's cult'ish.

Was I the only person here who had a FUN/adventurous time in his teens and experimented with life?! Man it's the essence of life (Not drinking/trying new things your not allowed to do!)

A teenager drinking is hardly a major crimminal act for gods sake.

No it's not cultish when you go to a party with your mates and they are all acting their own age, and THERE IS NO BEER! It's entirely possible to have a decent party without alcohol, and kids these days seem to be forgetting that. No I was not a nerd, nor was I socially retarded. My friends had genuine good fun without resorting to alcohol, and now we can choose to have that fun with or without. Whats wrong with experimenting once it's legal to do so?

For me it was a right of passage. I turned 18, and I was then allowed to experiment with alcohol if i chose to (which i did :lol:). It was so much worthwhile after waiting for it and earning it than it could ever have been through deceit.

As for my attitude towards the law... yeah, ive broken some, but i try earnestly not to make a habit of it. I prefer not to get into trouble, regardless of the chance of me being caught. Especially when it comes to things that people see as minor, like theft or wilfull damage. Because thats something that someone has worked hard for, and taking it or breaking it just is not right. Regardless of the value of the item.

I personally think its not a question of needing more laws, but rather the need to instill more of what used to be common values in children of today, as well as to educate them, both on the effects of alcohol, and how they can do without it. The 16-year-olds i know who drink at parties scare me. Hearing stories of them comatose, chucking their guts, and their friends not knowing what to do, wether an ambulance is required etc. I don't want one of them to be next in the headlines!

[SS90]

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but certain European countries (I believe France may be one of them) where children are introduced to alcohol at a younger age in a controled environment have a much lower incidence of 'binge drinking' and other social harms that abuse brings. Maybe by putting it up on the top shelf and keeping it out of their reach, while all the wise adults enjoy themselves by indulging, has the exact opposite effect than what we hoped for.

It's pretty much most of Europe, In Germany the rule was changed a few years back to DISCLUDE spirits) is

From the age of 16, you may consume Beer, and Wine. It is up to the bar owner if they allow 16 year olds on their premises, and, some place do have a 18 (or 21) year old minimum.

European's always say "oh, we have a youth drinking problem", and I always tell them they most certainly do not, compared to the UK or NZ, it is like a Sunday school (in this regard)

If (for example) a group of 16 year old are going to a football game outside of the town (by train), and, they want to drink booze, by in large, if the train is quite full, they will all stand in an area between the carrige, yes, they have music playing, and yes, they are drinking (legally, you are allowed to bring booze on board and consume it), but, even though this is going on, they (to a degree) responsible about it, and, show a level of respect.

On the other hand, I was back in NZ in December, and I was totally embarrassed by the youth drinking culture, Friday and Saturday nights saw streets full off pissed kids, foul mouthed, walking in front of cars (they even tried to stem this with a total ban on alcohol consumption outside the bars), but I don't see it as having done a thing.

When I was at high school, 6 kids I knew (from 2 different schools) died from alcohol related deaths (2 from drink driving, and, 2 from poisoning, 1 from suicide (a direct result of alcohol consumption is this scenario) and the other from having a head on into a bridge at night (on his sweat wheel), and died a few days later in hospital.

All in 5 years.

I went to a good school too.

I witnessed this getting worse when they lowered the drinking age, and I don't see the chances of them putting it back up (too much money from tax)

I know bar owners who (claim) their high prices are (partially) there to discourage "younger" drinkers from coming in (cough cough), but the real answer is "raise it to 20", it is a simple fix.

[DMNTD]

Sad news indeed...as a parent I can only imagine what the folks are going through.
I did similar things (obviously with different results) at that kid's age...plus a LOT more.
I went to a very similar school, had fantastic parents that did teach me right from wrong yet I still did the "bad" things. If I had died from alcohol poisoning it would have been no one's fault but my own.
Right or wrong, some of us are simply wired that way.

[Grubber]

You know, I think the smartest way of dealing with the issue of stupid people killing themselves because they are well.....stupid, is to either let them do it, or educate them that sculling a bottle of vodka will kill you.

You ca'nt tell kids that "drinking is bad. m,kay." Actually showing evidence of adults who have killed themselves from drinking in excess is about all that can be done. The rest is up to the individual.

I truely beleive that, other that making alcohol illegal, this is the only real solution.

You ca'nt make a horse drink the water.

I kinda agree with you here.
I think you have to do as much and maybe more than possible to educate them to drink in moderation or not at all. I don't mean a 2 sentence solution either. I mean constant parenting through the younger parts of their lives.
Then it's kinda up to the kids to have listened and learned.
I always told my kids that they can drink in moderation and if they found themselves having done more than that they were to 'phone home ET' and i would come pick them up, no matter what time of the night.
I had done as much as i could i thought. Never got rung and never had any issues. All happy.

[sinfull]

We have been lucky, it worked for us. Uhuh !



Sad news indeed...as a parent I can only imagine what the folks are going through.
I did similar things (obviously with different results) at that kid's age...plus a LOT more.
I went to a very similar school, had fantastic parents that did teach me right from wrong yet I still did the "bad" things. If I had died from alcohol poisoning it would have been no one's fault but my own.
Right or wrong, some of us are simply wired that way.


This has to be the nail on the head post !

I didn't go to one of those schools but i was a good kid, my parents had to be the best of the bunch, i pinched booze out of the old mans cabinet and made a rocket fuel occasionally, lay under his beer keg in the garage and guzzled a belly full on my way to scouts a few times ! He never knew !

But I was also working all school holidays and after school at 14, in an apprentiship at 15, my own flat at 16, I WAS responsible for my own actions !
What is it with todays society putting an apron string harness around kids necks till they're 20 ?
The last sentence in DMNTDs post sums it up, there were teens dying from alcohol poisoning in my day too ! It's gonna happen, no matter what friggin laws the pathetic do gooders try to implement !

[doc]

I think its the ole "You reap what you sow" All the years of becoming a more liberal society, with each Govts version of social engineering. I think its a case of get use to it folks its here to stay.
Infact I think things may even become worse.

[davereid]

As sad as it is for the family, people choose to use recreational drugs, and their son was no exception.

Partly, this tragedy was caused by restrictions on alcohol.

During prohibition, alcohol was illegal. So those who made and used alcohol made moonshine - the most potent form of the drug they could make. Same applies here. Gonna steal something from Nana ? Best bang for buck is a bottle of vodka.

If this young man had been able to buy beer from a vending machine, he would have drunk 12 cans, been sick, and gone home with some great pictures of him lying in his own vomit digitally winging their way to facebook.

We will continue to restrict alcohol for young people, until we notice that they have cheap, easy access to other drugs, and all we have done is influence their drug of choice.

[Pixie]

The problem is that in order to properly "educate" your child you need to get them shitfaced. That means that the parent has to break the law... LMAO @ personal responsibility in 15 - 16 yr olds...

Only if they are in a country will an Anglo Saxon heritage.
It is only in England,Australia,North America and South Africa that drinking to the point of coma is seen as a good,fun,manly thing to do.
The former Eastern Block countries and some Scandinavian countries are an exception that are not A/S but have a bad problem with alcohol.
In Central Europe children see sensible drinking from the first time they sit at the dinner table.They don't need to be made to become "shitfaced" to learn sensible drinking.They learn that drinking to inebriation is something to be ashamed of.
I use to have watered red wine with a meal when I was 8 years old.
I think it has something to do with how protestantism in A/S countries has caused the population to inherently feel guilty when they indulge in pleasurable activities.

[mashman]

Only if they are in a country will an Anglo Saxon heritage.
It is only in England,Australia,North America and South Africa that drinking to the point of coma is seen as a good,fun,manly thing to do.
The former Eastern Block countries and some Scandinavian countries are an exception that are not A/S but have a bad problem with alcohol.
In Central Europe children see sensible drinking from the first time they sit at the dinner table.They don't need to be made to become "shitfaced" to learn sensible drinking.They learn that drinking to inebriation is something to be ashamed of.
I use to have watered red wine with a meal when I was 8 years old.
I think it has something to do with how protestantism in A/S countries has caused the population to inherently feel guilty when they indulge in pleasurable activities.

Scotland? :shifty: you could well be right in regardsw to the cultural aspect... but within that "culture" if they're going to drink to excess, you need to educate the children where that limit is? if booze is there, there will be those that use it, those that abuse it and those that depend on it...

My solution is the usual, out of my mind thing, and will be wholly unacceptable to mainstream society or KB as i've come to view it, so... We need to have "real world" classes at school (sometime this may well have to be a day thing :shifty:)... perhaps aged 12-13, dunno about the age group... where kids take "social drugs" (booze, cannabis, eberneeza, billy etc... THE KIDS CAN SAY NO) to experience their effects in a safe environment and see for themselves the effects it has on their class mates... after all they are their peers... wholly unacceptable, but i'd rather the safe education than the potential alternatives!!!

[kit]

Kids (especially Teenagers) do stupid things, make stupid choices, and hopefully learn from the consequences... You can be the best parent in the world, installed good morals etc, and they still go and experiment with things without thought to consequences. This is not going to change. My father told me If I got up to half of the trouble that he did my ass was toast! Now my daughter is a teenager, and I have done my best to instill common sense, morals, confidence etc into her, but she is going to push her limits and exceed the boundaries that I have in place. There is an attitude out there with children today that they think they can do what they like, and there is nothing you can do about it. All the privileges they have, are not privleges in there eyes but rights that they think they are entitled to.

It is extremely sad that this young boy lost his life, experimenting with alcohol. But you cannot supervise your teenager every minute of the day, You have to trust them, as they grow as individuals and hope they make the correct choices at those crucial times, and if they don't, then they know that they can ring you not matter what, and hope that their friends have enough commonsence that they would ring an ambulance etc if they were worried about their friends.

[Bald Eagle]

On a slight tangent to this is the whole hypocritical policy makers attitudes to alcohol versus smoking. Both huge money spinners for the central purse. No body ever went out at night and smoked themselves dead.

[Genie]

On a slight tangent to this is the whole hypocritical policy makers attitudes to alcohol versus smoking. Both huge money spinners for the central purse. No body ever went out at night and smoked themselves dead.

smoking takes a lot longer than one night but it does kill.

How does one teach personal responsibility to another??? I believe it starts the moment they are born...ok not quite but as parents we need to teach them..touch the hot fire you'll get burnt. So many aren't touching the fire until they hit 13/14/15. Let them burn their fingers while they're young..learn the little llessons before they need to learn the hard stuff. Teach them balance, control, self respect, respect for others.....the list goes on yet many today are teaching their kids the wrong stuff and they think it's funny until the child winds up dead or in jail. Wake up

[neels]

How does one teach personal responsibility to another??? I believe it starts the moment they are born...ok not quite but as parents we need to teach them..touch the hot fire you'll get burnt. So many aren't touching the fire until they hit 13/14/15. Let them burn their fingers while they're young..learn the little llessons before they need to learn the hard stuff. Teach them balance, control, self respect, respect for others.....the list goes on yet many today are teaching their kids the wrong stuff and they think it's funny until the child winds up dead or in jail. Wake up
You are probably right.

So are we now seeing the result of a generation of children who have been protected from everything, never told they have failed, never lost at sport because it's bad for their self-esteem to keep score? A lot of people seem to think it's bad for kids to do something if they might get scared/hurt/a little bit mentally traumatised, so the kids never have to deal with the consequences of anything, and perhaps don't develop the ability to think about the possible outcomes of their actions because they haven't learnt the hard way that doing dumb things can end badly.

[Lissa]

Have to say I never stole alcohol from my parents, I didnt have to, we had mates who brought it for us. But I did steal a can of condensed milk once and got quite sick from drinking it. I dont think I am a bad person for stealing that can from my parents.

I used to get very shit faced as a teenager, drank two bottles of wine in a short amount of time, got sick, had a massive hangover, but we all did it at some stage. For kids to learn moderation they need to learn it themselves, thats how I did, learnt how much I could drink without feeling too sick the next day, but it took years. Parents could allow there children to drink at home, watch them and let them learn in a safe environment what there limit is, but that doesnt help when the kids are at a party surrounded by peers who cheer them on to drink, commonsense always goes out the window when you get drunk no matter what your age but especially teenagers with no life experience. He drank a bottle of vodka... thats potent stuff right? We never drank anything other than cheap wine and beer. I feel its a tragedy and something that kids could learn from, but most arent going to.