Tyre myths - Pirelli's answers

[diggyduo]

Here (http://www.sportrider.com/tips/146_0810_how_to_warm_up_new_tires/index.html) is an interesting viewpoint from the American Pirelli tyre guru (from 08 - though tyres haven't moved greatly since then). Talks about:
No need to 'scrub' in new tyres
How to warm up tyres - accel and braking rather than weaving (prob most of you know this already)
Race tyres always offering more grip than road tyres in all conditions on the road.

Guessing there are a few people that would dispute the first point...

[quickbuck]

Here (http://www.sportrider.com/tips/146_0810_how_to_warm_up_new_tires/index.html) is an interesting viewpoint from the American Pirelli tyre guru (from 08 - though tyres haven't moved greatly since then). Talks about:
No need to 'scrub' in new tyres
.........

Guessing there are a few people that would dispute the first point...

Including some other tyre manufactures... who say words to the effect of it takes 160km (or was it 500km?) to scrub in new road tyres.....
I was under the impression this was to get around the fact that many people bin in the first few Km on new rubber, and it was a denial of responsibility thing....

OR, these manufacturers still use Mold Release, rather than Teflon?

[Mishy]

OR, these manufacturers still use Mold Release, rather than Teflon?

Yeah, it's got a lot to do with release agents, both the type and the effect on grip while they are still present.
Fact is that many road tyres still need scrubbing, but nowhere near as much as we are mostly lead to believe.
The newest types of release agent wick off very quickly after being released from the mould, and allied with an abraided finish they reduce bed in time to virtually nothing.
Race tyres with warmers used are good to go first lap - no question.

[quickbuck]

Yeah, it's got a lot to do with release agents, both the type and the effect on grip while they are still present.
Fact is that many road tyres still need scrubbing, but nowhere near as much as we are mostly lead to believe.
The newest types of release agent wick off very quickly after being released from the mould, and allied with an abraided finish they reduce bed in time to virtually nothing.
Race tyres with warmers used are good to go first lap - no question.
Agree with all fully.
I mean, threw a new hoop on the back of the CBR, and then rode home, and over some freshly sealed street.... Scrub done... Well, almost. The next week, threw a new hoop on the front. Same drill.... M3 Sportecs..... Brilliant!

With the Race Rubber, yup, agree there... although I'm not the one actually riding ;)

[Mishy]

[ Race tyres always offering more grip than road tyres in all conditions on the road.
.

I would have to say that this has to be temperature dependent, and saying "always" ignores some of the shortcomings of high grip tyres that also have very high inherent stiffness of the compound,and therefor lack of flexibility at low temperature.
I'm cautios of saying I disagree, because there is a lot of truth in that, but I would say to be careful when anyone says "always" refering to race tyres !

[Shaun]

Here (http://www.sportrider.com/tips/146_0810_how_to_warm_up_new_tires/index.html) is an interesting viewpoint from the American Pirelli tyre guru (from 08 - though tyres haven't moved greatly since then). Talks about:
No need to 'scrub' in new tyres
How to warm up tyres - accel and braking rather than weaving (prob most of you know this already)
Race tyres always offering more grip than road tyres in all conditions on the road.

Guessing there are a few people that would dispute the first point...



As Mishy has said, Road and race rubber is very different! Road usage tyres for road riders, always NEED a little time to settle in after fitting from new, to get up to temp and release shite of the exterior

[diggyduo]

As Mishy has said, Road and race rubber is very different! Road usage tyres for road riders, always NEED a little time to settle in after fitting from new, to get up to temp and release shite of the exterior

That's what I always thought, but seems Pirellis, if not other tyre manufacturers, are immune from this thought. Here's Mr Pirelli's quote:

Finally, there is the aspect of using race tires on the street. Interestingly, Knoche says Pirelli's street and DOT race tires should come up to temperature equally quickly and at no time does the race compound offer less traction than that of the street tire. However, this is not a statement that we feel can be safely applied to all brands of tires, as we've heard differently from tire engineers (not marketing managers) from other companies regarding their specific brand. Regardless, there are plenty of other reasons not to run modern DOT race tires on the street, not the least of which is tread life that can be as short as 300 miles of aggressive riding!

[Shaun]

That's what I always thought, but seems Pirellis, if not other tyre manufacturers, are immune from this thought. Here's Mr Pirelli's quote:

Finally, there is the aspect of using race tires on the street. Interestingly, Knoche says Pirelli's street and DOT race tires should come up to temperature equally quickly and at no time does the race compound offer less traction than that of the street tire. However, this is not a statement that we feel can be safely applied to all brands of tires, as we've heard differently from tire engineers (not marketing managers) from other companies regarding their specific brand. Regardless, there are plenty of other reasons not to run modern DOT race tires on the street, not the least of which is tread life that can be as short as 300 miles of aggressive riding!

All brands of tyres are different, remember they are made up by chemicals etc and scientists

I know the Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa dot Race tyre is fine to use on a street bike, as they DO heat up very quick, but you will also get LOW MILAGE from them, and I really do NOT believe there is any one out there as a road rider that needs them.

Pirelli and Continental offer very very good high quality high Grip SPORTS RIDING tyres

Mishy- May have an opinion on using RACE Continental;'s on the street for a Road Rider??

[Gremlin]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to disagree on the comment that race tyres would always provide the same or more grip than a street tyre, on the road. One of the main reasons you weave or brake and accelerate is to get movement or flex in a tyre, and the friction creates heat. Tyres move more easily with more grooves (as the rubber has somewhere to go). No grooves, or substantially less, is going to restrict the ability of the rubber to move around.

Granted, I haven't ridden on Pirelli race tyres, but I have used the Strada and several sets of the Pirelli Scorpion Sync (best tyre I've ever had actually). On the sync especially (currently running out about the 5th set in 1.5 years) it is a bit skitterish brand new, and there is definitely a different coating over the tread. Once you've ridden on the piece of tyre a little bit (not hundreds of km) the sure footed-ness is back.

Shaun, I did use the Continental Race Attack a couple of years back once, on my ZX10, and that tyre definitely needed warming up before doing anything. Noticeably slippery when cold, took at least 2 laps on the track day I did to get it happy (no use of tyre warmers) and cooled quite easily when riding on the road. $/km, it was the same as the Sport Attack...

[Mishy]

All brands of tyres are different, remember they are made up by chemicals etc and scientists

I know the Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa dot Race tyre is fine to use on a street bike, as they DO heat up very quick, but you will also get LOW MILAGE from them, and I really do NOT believe there is any one out there as a road rider that needs them.

Pirelli and Continental offer very very good high quality high Grip SPORTS RIDING tyres

Mishy- May have an opinion on using RACE Continental;'s on the street for a Road Rider??

Yeah, I'm with you there.
My experience with Race tyres on the road ( not just Conti's) is that they are extremely unpredictable when not up to temp.
On a nice fine sunny day, and with a constant beating without a break, they seem to work ok.
The catch is that on a cooler day you will be stuck below a reasonable operating temp, and if you stop (even at lights) they can drop away quickl as well.

Think about this - they were DESIGNED to REQUIRE tyre warmers - all of them. Almost all manufacturers - even Pirelli - also make a "track day" tyre that is super sticky, but does not require warmers.
That should say something.

[Shaun]

Yeah, I'm with you there.
My experience with Race tyres on the road ( not just Conti's) is that they are extremely unpredictable when not up to temp.
On a nice fine sunny day, and with a constant beating without a break, they seem to work ok.
The catch is that on a cooler day you will be stuck below a reasonable operating temp, and if you stop (even at lights) they can drop away quickl as well.

Think about this - they were DESIGNED to REQUIRE tyre warmers - all of them. Almost all manufacturers - even Pirelli - also make a "track day" tyre that is super sticky, but does not require warmers.
That should say something.





well said re the tyre warmers mate

[TonyB]

Yeah, I'm with you there.
My experience with Race tyres on the road ( not just Conti's) is that they are extremely unpredictable when not up to temp.
On a nice fine sunny day, and with a constant beating without a break, they seem to work ok.
The catch is that on a cooler day you will be stuck below a reasonable operating temp, and if you stop (even at lights) they can drop away quickl as well.

Think about this - they were DESIGNED to REQUIRE tyre warmers - all of them. Almost all manufacturers - even Pirelli - also make a "track day" tyre that is super sticky, but does not require warmers.
That should say something.
Well said! It's for this very reason that I use 'track day' type tyres on my race bike- I don't have warmers. 'Track day' tyres have better grip when cold, and when they're hot I seem to be able to hold the same corner speed as guys on similar machinery using warmers and race tyres. AND they offer better grip than DOT race tyre when its cold or damp. AND they last for ages!

[Mishy]

Well said! It's for this very reason that I use 'track day' type tyres on my race bike- I don't have warmers. 'Track day' tyres have better grip when cold, and when they're hot I seem to be able to hold the same corner speed as guys on similar machinery using warmers and race tyres. AND they offer better grip than DOT race tyre when its cold or damp. AND they last for ages!

:) you are cartainly onto something there !
The only disadvantage with your tyres would be with the rear on a very hot track, where a large amount of heat could cause smearing.
Still, give me a nice lazy hot tyre slide over a sharp snappy cold one any day !

[mouldy]

I have a standard new tyre test which is roll it out of the shop point it in a straight line and nail it , some still spin and some hook up straight away but I still scrub everything in before I'll start gassing out of corners . Avon and Conti road attack 2s claim they don't need scrubbing in but I probably still would . Have Michie Power Pures on at the mo and they scrubbed in quickly but Power 1 race tyres slid on the track (no warmers ) and needed a couple of laps to scrub in .

[p.dath]

I've sent an email to Pirelli US trying to get hold of Cristoph Knoche to clarify what he has been quoted as saying in that article.

[Biggles08]

I used to run Conti Sport Attacks on my ZX9R on the road and they were as slippery as buggery when first put on...I mean it felt like I was ridding on ice! Took about 20-40k's before I felt I could ride on them normally and possibly another 20-40ks before I could push them. Also, they certainly took a while to warm up on the track. I used to give myself 4 laps of taupo before I started pushing...that was in winter granted. Seems this article may have been taken out of context (i hope) as some brands of tire you most definitely have to scrub in!

[discodan]

I can't say the same for other brands but I would be completly comfortable rolling up on the race grid with brand new Pirellis on.

Using unscrubbed Pirelli Supercorsa tyres I qualified on pole at the Manfeild National round by doing 1 out lap and 2 flying laps before pulling into the pits. Those are tyres you can put on your road bike, ie not special qualifying tyres.

[Mishy]

I can't say the same for other brands but I would be completly comfortable rolling up on the race grid with brand new Pirellis on.

Using unscrubbed Pirelli Supercorsa tyres I qualified on pole at the Manfeild National round by doing 1 out lap and 2 flying laps before pulling into the pits. Those are tyres you can put on your road bike, ie not special qualifying tyres.

I'm not sure that all of what you said fits together.
We never bother scrubbing race tyres either (we also had pole in 600, and two race wins) but that's mainly because thay come off tyre warmers, and are stinking hot.
This largely negates the need to scrub, and if you had warmers on your road bike you wouldn't bother either.
This is the real point - race tyres rely heavily on temperature to work correctly, and not enough can often leave you with an unpredictable grip scenario.
I would NEVER suggest that someone takes a new race tyre, fits it to a road bike, and treats it like it was on a race bike straight off warmers - it's just not a good idea at all, and the two situations are vastly different due to the use of warmers.
FYI - I don't know of anyone who had access to qualifying tyres.

[jonbuoy]

Maybe no need to scrub in new tyres if they removed the release agent before they sent them out of the factory but taking it easy on the road for a few k´s after your wheels have been taken on and off for any reason including a new chain isn´t a bad idea anyway.

[discodan]

In case anyone didn't understand what I was saying, I'm not suggesting that someone fits a set of race tyres and takes off down the road at full tit. I was just saying that in the case of the Pirelli Supercorsa tyres, which you CAN put on a road bike, they don't really need to have the coating 'scrubbed' off before they grip well.



I'm not sure that all of what you said fits together.
We never bother scrubbing race tyres either (we also had pole in 600, and two race wins) but that's mainly because thay come off tyre warmers, and are stinking hot.
This largely negates the need to scrub, and if you had warmers on your road bike you wouldn't bother either.
This is the real point - race tyres rely heavily on temperature to work correctly, and not enough can often leave you with an unpredictable grip scenario.
I would NEVER suggest that someone takes a new race tyre, fits it to a road bike, and treats it like it was on a race bike straight off warmers - it's just not a good idea at all, and the two situations are vastly different due to the use of warmers.
FYI - I don't know of anyone who had access to qualifying tyres.