No more domestic applications (but international fine WTF!)

[mashman]

Unbefuckinlievable... no places for Kiwi students... but plenty for international students...

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7220774/students-union-critical-of-university-restrictions/

[huff3r]

Unbefuckinlievable... no places for Kiwi students... but plenty for international students...

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7220774/students-union-critical-of-university-restrictions/

Did you read why? It's because the University cannot afford more domestic students, as the government will not give them more money for more students. However International students pay the FULL cost of their studies (some 3 or 4 times the subsidised cost domestic students pay). Meaning the Uni can easily afford more of them.

[bogan]

Did you read why? It's because the University cannot afford more domestic students, as the government will not give them more money for more students. However International students pay the FULL cost of their studies (some 3 or 4 times the subsidised cost domestic students pay). Meaning the Uni can easily afford more of them.

I think thats his point dude, govt should be investing more in higher education, as its good for economy in the long term etc.

[firefighter]

I am equally pissed at this.

I can fully understand it's a business, and international students pay waaaay more. But closing the doors on the home countries students is pretty shit-house. Denying education to domestic students IS descrimmination, no matter which way you look at it.

Besides the crimminal stuff, denying domestic students education and giving it to overseas students-who will then use that education overseas is hardly a good thing.....

[huff3r]

I think thats his point dude, govt should be investing more in higher education, as its good for economy in the long term etc.

Ok, yeah in that case I agree. I just think people need to make sure they know who is at fault here... i.e the Government, rather than the Uni itself :)

[huff3r]

I am equally pissed at this.

I can fully understand it's a business, and international students pay waaaay more. But closing the doors on the home countries students is pretty shit-house. Denying education to domestic students IS descrimmination, no matter which way you look at it.

I'm sure theyd take domestic students if they paid the FULL fees, but what domestic student would? Otherwise they simply cannot take them, it'd be like selling medicine for a subsidised price without getting the subsidy. Its more than bad for business, it's crippling.

[Tank]

Perhaps if they stopped all the funding for useless degrees - then there would be more room for "proper" students.

[bogan]

Besides the crimminal stuff, denying domestic students education and giving it to overseas students-who will then use that education overseas is hardly a good thing.....

but giving it to domestic students who will then use that education overseas is a good thing?


Perhaps if they stopped all the funding for useless degrees - then there would be more room for "proper" students.

fuck yeh, charge more for degrees that nobody actually needs and vice versa, BA 2k per paper, BEng 100bung per paper :D

[firefighter]

Perhaps if they stopped all the funding for useless degrees - then there would be more room for "proper" students.

Absolutely


I'm sure theyd take domestic students if they paid the FULL fees, but what domestic student would? Otherwise they simply cannot take them, it'd be like selling medicine for a subsidised price without getting the subsidy. Its more than bad for business, it's crippling.


[B]I can fully understand it's a business, and international students pay waaaay more.

I reaslise that, hence I state I know it's a business. There should be more support for local students, if it means getting rid of pointless degrees then i'm all for that.


but giving it to domestic students who will then use that education overseas is a good thing?

Of course not. I bet more domestic students stay than foreign students do.....plus if they do leave, for most N.Z is still home, and any overseas experience eventually finds it's way back.....and eventually benefits N.Z, which is better than "wham bam, thanks for the degree i'm fucken off for good."

In fact, thinking about it, it's probably better that some of the students fuck-off overseas, and bring back the experience gained.....(like is the usual scenario)

[rainman]

Perhaps if they stopped all the funding for useless degrees - then there would be more room for "proper" students.

Wouldn't that be "picking winners", about which I understand the received wisdom from the looney right, sorry, libertarian orthodoxy, is that governments don't do that well?

[bogan]

Wouldn't that be "picking winners", about which I understand the received wisdom from the looney right, sorry, libertarian orthodoxy, is that governments don't do that well?

just make it policy for the uni to do it, theres some really smart people in dem places

[rainman]

just make it policy for the uni to do it, theres some really smart people in dem places

Um, what? How would that be different to today?

[bogan]

Um, what? How would that be different to today?

cost of papers would be different, as far as I'm aware pretty much all papers are round the $500 mark.

[mashman]

Once upon a time, and not so long ago, education was free... Successful governments have changed that and keep taking bites out of the education budget as the country gets richer... but it's ok, there's several hundred million going into technology for R & D purposes... I'd rather see that money going into education... after all it's the people that undertake the R & D... what's the point in R & D if your workforce isn't skilled?

Education is for those that can afford it, because it is now a business... and the govt aren't prepared to invest in the people... Catch 22 anyone? but who gives a fuck as long as there's bums on seats... makes the figures look good... I perish to thnink about the "minds" that are being lost...

[Tank]

Wouldn't that be "picking winners", about which I understand the received wisdom from the looney right, sorry, libertarian orthodoxy, is that governments don't do that well?

Its simple - if it has the word "arts" in it - make em pay for their useless hobby course.

and night classes - Im glad they are making 'em pay for that as well.

[mashman]

Its simple - if it has the word "arts" in it - make em pay for their useless hobby course.

and night classes - Im glad they are making 'em pay for that as well.

no more BA's then?

[Tank]

no more BA's then?

That would be a good start

[rainman]

cost of papers would be different, as far as I'm aware pretty much all papers are round the $500 mark.

Whoosh! That was you missing my point...


Its simple - if it has the word "arts" in it - make em pay for their useless hobby course.

and night classes - Im glad they are making 'em pay for that as well.

What are the rules for selecting courses acceptable to Tank? Serious question.

[mashman]

That would be a good start

lol, then there'd be no teachers... yeah, that could work :)

[bogan]

Whoosh! That was you missing my point...
well thanks for explaining what it is I missed :sarcasm:

[cromagnon]

The govt subsidises courses at different rates. I think Universities are given about $6k per student per year for arts, moving through to about $13k per student per year for engineering from the govt. The funding scheme might have changed recently where no extra money is given for extra students. Student fees are on top of those amounts, about $500 per one semester course.

[bogan]

The govt subsidises courses at different rates. I think Universities are given about $6k per student per year for arts, moving through to about $13k per student per year for engineering from the govt. The funding scheme might have changed recently where no extra money is given for extra students. Student fees are on top of those amounts, about $500 per one semester course.

thanks, I didn't realize that, so the government may have set quotas for numbers of students in each course, and financially for the uni it is better if they are international students, seems fair enough, perhaps rather than just not accepting new students, they should just take the top ones, cos we got some drop kicks in some of our papers (mind you the worst was an international student).

[Tank]

lol, then there'd be no teachers... yeah, that could work :)

Yep - doing a pissy BA on "whatever" then a 12 month 'cross over course' gives NZ the best teachers. Yeah Right!

[allycatz]

My son is at Vic Uni....he says many of the foreign students, especially those from the states, say our fees are still a 'bargain' compared to their home countries

[mashman]

Yep - doing a pissy BA on "whatever" then a 12 month 'cross over course' gives NZ the best teachers. Yeah Right!

lol, whilst true in plenty of cases... you could say that about any qualification... Perhaps we should just ditch the lot and learn on the job :)

[Marmoot]

Public:
- I want to study This (enter useless degree; e.g., how to kill a mocking bird) even if it is useless just because I like it and it is significant to my culture!
- I can't work because I have ingrown toenails, I need taxpayer to fund my disability.
- I don't wanna get married but I got pregnant so I'm a solo parent. Money plx kthx need lipstick and baby food!
- Our iwi needs new marae!
- I can't find work (in management level) for the last 9 months. I'm unemployed. Halpppp!!!
- Damn, sprained my ankle playing rugby. Can't work! Need food!
- Can't pay moar taxes, soz. 40% income already taxed, 40% for mortgage, and 20% for food+gas.

Government:
- Sorry about that, here's some money. Hope it helps.
- Sorry universities, most money have been spent somewhere else. Not much left for youse.

Universities:
- Classes need to be cleaned. Heaters need maintenance. Computers broken. Bills need to be paid. Can't give free diplomas, sorry.

Overseas students:
- We can pay. U giv degree, yes? I come I giv monies!

Domestic students:
- What about us? We iz want 2 lern too! WAAAAAAHHHH!!!!

So, whose fault is it, really?
A. Domestic students for being poor?
B. Overseas students for having money?
C. Universities for being stingy?
D. Government for not investing in education?
E. Workers for not paying enough tax?
F. Non-workers for not paying tax?
G. Non-capable people for not working....and not paying tax....and taking from the tax pool?
H. Virtually all of the above.
I. [insert your favourite deity here]
J. Terry Serepisos for having weird teeth

[Squiggles]

Unbefuckinlievable... no places for Kiwi students... but plenty for international students...

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7220774/students-union-critical-of-university-restrictions/

About fucken time someone took a stand.

[mashman]

So, whose fault is it, really?
D. Government for not investing in education?
J. Terry Serepisos for having weird teeth
K. RICH BASTARDS EVADING PAYING TAX!!!!!!


There's my 2, and 1 more BIGGY for the pot...

[Sentox]

That would be a good start

Hmm. There goes my four years of economics.

Should probably abandon my thesis now :laugh:

[Dave Lobster]

Besides the crimminal stuff, denying domestic students education and giving it to overseas students-who will then use that education overseas is hardly a good thing.....

I'm pretty sure the point was they're not giving it at all.. hence the cost :)

[Mudfart]

the labour govt established tertiarty education as a standard that all NZ citizens should acheive, they made the loans, uni entrance all easy. Labour thought they could bring in foreigners to do the manual labour work in factories etc...
Natzi party, because the scheme is a remanant of Labour, simply has to destroy any evidence that Labour ever made an improvement in NZ.
Just another example of when you vote a new party into grubbermint its 2 steps forward, 3 backwards!!.

[avgas]

cost of papers would be different, as far as I'm aware pretty much all papers are round the $500 mark.
MBA is about $2,200 per paper.......no govt subsidy

[avgas]

My son is at Vic Uni....he says many of the foreign students, especially those from the states, say our fees are still a 'bargain' compared to their home countries
I came back to NZ for this reason.
MBA here = NZ$30K
MBA in Aus = AU$42K

[avgas]

Once upon a time, and not so long ago, education was free... Successful governments have changed that and keep taking bites out of the education budget as the country gets richer... but it's ok, there's several hundred million going into technology for R & D purposes... I'd rather see that money going into education... after all it's the people that undertake the R & D... what's the point in R & D if your workforce isn't skilled?

Education is for those that can afford it, because it is now a business... and the govt aren't prepared to invest in the people... Catch 22 anyone? but who gives a fuck as long as there's bums on seats... makes the figures look good... I perish to thnink about the "minds" that are being lost...
Yeah and Nah.
To be honest it is getting really fucked thanks to the govt funding for anyone to do degree. It kinda devalues the whole structures.
My degree is now as useless as the dumbest moron that has graduated with it.
Sadly some of these morons get into management, and don't know any better.

[Marmoot]

There's my 2, and 1 more BIGGY for the pot...

You're right. I missed one option.

K. Winston Peters for shooing most of the overseas students away and starving the universities off the much-needed cash.

[rustic101]

Just wait to you see what the budget has (not) for students ;)..

IMO - Personally I think think this is great news as I'm sick of funding the majority of students who are bludging doing some useless degree. Fund your own study or do an apprenticeship or study with a firm as an intern.

There is nothing stopping students from moving to Australia and getting an SA after a stand down or better still move to China.

[davereid]

University should not be subsidised at alll. You want a degree, ask yourself why. The answer will be, it because you want a future, you don't want a minimum adult wage job at McDonalds with split shifts.

Why should my pensioner mum pay extra tax to help you through ? Why should I ?

If two lads leave the seventh form, and one says " I'll be a dentist, its a great career and I'll make shitloads" he will have 80% of his fees paid by the taxpayer, and will get an interest free student loan.

Yet he will claim the cost of training and overheads as his reason for charging the highest dental fees in the pacific.

On the other hand, the equally bright lad who says "I'll start a transport empire and make shitloads" gets to buy his own Scania Truck, with a loan from the bank. He doesnt get a cent from the taxpayer, in fact he has to pay tax, acc and gst, diesel miles and be "compliant" from the first day he opens the door.

Free education is elitist crap. Why not just pay your way ?

[Sentox]

Free education is elitist crap. Why not just pay your way ?

The usual justification revolves around the idea that society benefits in general: more people providing services in careers they wouldn't otherwise pursue if the (cost) barriers to entry were higher, increased education correlating to a lower likelihood of becoming involved in criminal activities, etc. Not everyone agrees, but it's the same essential justification for most things the government provides.

[Dave Lobster]

Free education is elitist crap. Why not just pay your way ?

It's NOT free. It's paid for by the guy with the Scania truck.

[rainman]

University should not be subsidised at alll. You want a degree, ask yourself why. The answer will be, it because you want a future, you don't want a minimum adult wage job at McDonalds with split shifts.

Why should my pensioner mum pay extra tax to help you through ? Why should I ?

If two lads leave the seventh form, and one says " I'll be a dentist, its a great career and I'll make shitloads" he will have 80% of his fees paid by the taxpayer, and will get an interest free student loan.

Yet he will claim the cost of training and overheads as his reason for charging the highest dental fees in the pacific.

On the other hand, the equally bright lad who says "I'll start a transport empire and make shitloads" gets to buy his own Scania Truck, with a loan from the bank. He doesnt get a cent from the taxpayer, in fact he has to pay tax, acc and gst, diesel miles and be "compliant" from the first day he opens the door.

Free education is elitist crap. Why not just pay your way ?

Someone has a chip on their shoulder, methinks. I think the analogy is really that the dentist buys an expensive chair, x-ray machine and drills, and the other bloke buys a truck. Both of them may be as capable, but one is going further than the other by getting an education. Note I'm not some elitist bagging those who aren't tertiary educated, just pointing out your analogy is crap.

You and your pensioner mum should contribute to this because (take this slowly, I realise these ideas are foreign for those of a more libertarian persuasion)... you're part of the community/society, and benefit from helping those within it. It's what might be called an ethical issue, by those of us that have them.

Imagine if you will a bright young lad or ladess who comes from a poor family, so can't "pay their way". Enabling them to attain what they are capable of (done properly) improves the quality and capability of the society we all live in. Your way, the already wealthy get to be the dentists (or own trucking co's if they prefer to be less elitist), everyone else flips burgers. Behaviour by design?

Must be weird living in a world where everything is so linear and one-dimensional.


It's NOT free. It's paid for by the guy with the Scania truck.

And, perhaps, the dentist, with all the tax on the money he makes charging like a wounded bull. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a (not-so-) good story.

[Mudfart]

terry serapesos's teeth are veneered. all the hollywood actors get it done. it is a covering that goes over your original teeth to make them permanently pearly sparkly glossy white. it enlarges your original teeth, so your lips dont quite fit your teeth anymore. thats why everyone who has had it done, cant close their lips when they smile. it almost looks like they are wincing in pain.
its quite expensive here, but you can get it in fiji, thailand, india etc for quite cheap.

[davereid]

but one is going further than the other by getting an education. Note I'm not some elitist bagging those who aren't tertiary educated, just pointing out your analogy is crap. You and your pensioner mum should contribute to this because (take this slowly, I realise these ideas are foreign for those of a more libertarian persuasion)... you're part of the community/society, and benefit from helping those within it. It's what might be called an ethical issue, by those of us that have them. .

My analogy is just fine, and you are certainly elitist as you are claiming that education makes the difference as to the benefit to society.

New Zealanders just have this bludger strip, where they think that someone else (usually called "government" or "society" so they don't have to face the fact its other peoples money) should pay for everything.

"What if I cant afford it !" they wail, thus justifying (at least to themselves), their hand in someone else's pocket.

[huff3r]

My analogy is just fine, and you are certainly elitist as you are claiming that education makes the difference as to the benefit to society.

New Zealanders just have this bludger strip, where they think that someone else (usually called "government" or "society" so they don't have to face the fact its other peoples money) should pay for everything.

"What if I cant afford it !" they wail, thus justifying (at least to themselves), their hand in someone else's pocket.

Do you realise that in your "perfect society" there would be no low-paid educated jobs. If people have to pay a fortune to get an education they aren't going to train as a school teacher, they'll go for the highest paid job they can get so as to recover their costs as quickly as possible. So your world has no school teachers, no road-workers (they have to train too, and the engineers need degrees), no mechanics (why go to tech when Uni costs the same and you can be a lawyer).... get the picture? Thats why everyone chips in so anyone who wants to can get the education needed to get the jobs WE NEED them to do.

[bogan]

hmmm, In an ideal world those in high paid jobs wouldn't dodge taxes so would pay in a larger percentage to education that way, and charge less as they don't have huge student loans, which directly benefits the masses. But in this world there's not enough top level jobs in NZ so heaps of people just fuck off and pay tax somewhere else, and heaps more go to uni for the lols, and drop out without applying fuck all effort.

[Delerium]

University should not be subsidised at alll. You want a degree, ask yourself why. The answer will be, it because you want a future, you don't want a minimum adult wage job at McDonalds with split shifts.

Why should my pensioner mum pay extra tax to help you through ? Why should I ?

If two lads leave the seventh form, and one says " I'll be a dentist, its a great career and I'll make shitloads" he will have 80% of his fees paid by the taxpayer, and will get an interest free student loan.

Yet he will claim the cost of training and overheads as his reason for charging the highest dental fees in the pacific.

On the other hand, the equally bright lad who says "I'll start a transport empire and make shitloads" gets to buy his own Scania Truck, with a loan from the bank. He doesnt get a cent from the taxpayer, in fact he has to pay tax, acc and gst, diesel miles and be "compliant" from the first day he opens the door.

Free education is elitist crap. Why not just pay your way ?

Because having a greater proportion of educated people benefits the entire economy, not just those with degrees. Do you have one?

[Dave Lobster]

Because having a greater proportion of educated people benefits the entire economy, not just those with degrees.

Are you sure it doesn't just make degrees worth less?

[rainman]

My analogy is just fine

Sorry, but just saying it doesn't make it so... And of course education (in general) benefits society. I'd suggest those wealthy benefactors who provide scholarships and endowments to universities the world over understand that, even if you don't.

There is absolutely a degree of bludgery, at both end of the spectrum, as has been pointed out repeatedly here and elsewhere. And freeloading needs to be minimised if any group is to prosper. But the fix for that is not naive radical individualistic Randian libertarianism. No man is an island, and all that.

Yes this means a) managing the incentives/handouts to plain lazy buggers who are gaming the system and won't get off their arse, but also b) managing the handouts to individuals and corporates who are privatising gains and socialising costs (about the only time a libertarian recognises the concept of "society" is when they are looking for some schmuck to stick with the bill/risk/pollution/bailout/etc). I'd even say it means managing the gains we take by screwing over other species - "bludging" is really just taking more than your fair share. Humans are pretty good at that. Not hardwired for justice, one could say.

I'm actually quite a fan of personal responsibility - which may surprise some here. I think it's the fundamental underpinning of the concept of karma (the real one, not the pop culture version). But if it is not tempered with universal compassion, kindness, and unconditional generosity, then it is not.... I dunno what word to use: skilful? mature? evolved? useful? The libertarian ideal of personal responsibility found so often in blogs commnts like this would be fine in an ideal world, where all were equally capable, healthy, free of force and compunction, and where all had reasonably equal access to wealth. Not the real world, though, where none of those apply.

Unfortunately NZ political discourse is stuck in a false dichotomy between those cartooning and vilifying the poor/bludgers and those catooning and vilifying the rich pricks. Time we grew up.


Are you sure it doesn't just make degrees worth less?

Clearly a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

[mashman]

It kinda devalues the whole structures.
My degree is now as useless as the dumbest moron that has graduated with it.
Sadly some of these morons get into management, and don't know any better.

Very true... the devaluation knock on effects being the standard of education provided dropping dramatically... Unfortunately, to counteract the lower standards, we have the Ivy Leagues of the world that are only open to the "wealthy"... and it would seem that these top end Unis work under the premis of "the rich are rich because they're clever because they've earned lots of money"...

Yup, may as well make paper airplanes with my degree, 16yrs old and eclipsed by any snot nosed student that decides he'll do a post grad in computing...

[mashman]

Clearly a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

I would say that that is true of about 95% of the people I know or know of...

[Winston001]

Its May, partway through the education year. Victoria University have said they won't accept any more domestic enrolments until the end of the year. Otago have said they won't accept in respect of some courses.

That leaves Auckland, Lincoln, Massey, and Waikato Universities still accepting domestic applicants. As well, there are a myriad of polytechs out there still keen for more students. What's the problem?

[mashman]

That leaves Auckland, Lincoln, Massey, and Waikato Universities still accepting domestic applicants. As well, there are a myriad of polytechs out there still keen for more students. What's the problem?

Stop asking such sensible questions :)... for me it's the fact that the Uni has decided to do this on the grounds that finances are not available to domestic students... nothing to do with the amount of places available as there are still places for international students.

[Dave Lobster]

How about.. anyone that thinks it is unreasonable for the government not to give our money to the universities makes a donation themselves.
Obviously I wont.. but I'm not a socialist.

[mashman]

How about.. anyone that thinks it is unreasonable for the government not to give our money to the universities makes a donation themselves.
Obviously I wont.. but I'm not a socialist.

I'm not a socialist either, but we both still pay for education through our taxes don't we? the govt then decides how much to apportion to each educational institute doesn't it?

[Dave Lobster]

I'm not a socialist either, but we both still pay for education through our taxes don't we? the govt then decides how much to apportion to each educational institute doesn't it?

Yes.. my point was that they obviously don't have enough money, and those that think something should be done really ought to put their money where their mouth is, and contribute more.
Is that unreasonable?

[mashman]

Yes.. my point was that they obviously don't have enough money, and those that think something should be done really ought to put their money where their mouth is, and contribute more.
Is that unreasonable?

Ahhhh, gotcha... yes it is unreasonable. If this is the road the govt choose to go down, then I would ask that the govt allow me to choose how much of my tax $ goes to which services. I already contribute enough, 40% of my salary to be precise and for the record I do not dodge paying the taxes that the govt say I am liable for (unlike way too many others)... BUT I would happily take whatever tax I pay towards, say defence, and put it into Education, then i can put my money where my mouth is... but as i'm not allowed to do that i'd say it's unreasonable as I don't have the disposable income.

[peasea]

Its May, partway through the education year. Victoria University have said they won't accept any more domestic enrolments until the end of the year. Otago have said they won't accept in respect of some courses.

That leaves Auckland, Lincoln, Massey, and Waikato Universities still accepting domestic applicants. As well, there are a myriad of polytechs out there still keen for more students. What's the problem?

I did wonder about that. Didn't that Caleb dude move towns already? Do it again ya dumb mofo and sign up somewhere else. Or is that too easy?

I must say that the number of g,goo,goo, goo erm, 'good people from Asia' in our education establishments is astounding. When my daughters were going through 6th and 7th form they were always complaining that the goo, goo, good people from Asia constantly jabbered in class in their own lingo and were disruptive but nowt was done about it. Maybe the teachers feared the racist stick. Does the same happen at Uni?

I wouldn't mind seeing the stat's for success of the goo, goo, good people from Asia versus kiwis at Uni.

[peasea]

Ahhhh, gotcha... yes it is unreasonable. If this is the road the govt choose to go down, then I would ask that the govt allow me to choose how much of my tax $ goes to which services. I already contribute enough, 40% of my salary to be precise and for the record I do not dodge paying the taxes that the govt say I am liable for (unlike way too many others)... BUT I would happily take whatever tax I pay towards, say defence, and put it into Education, then i can put my money where my mouth is... but as i'm not allowed to do that i'd say it's unreasonable as I don't have the disposable income.

I'd be whistling my tax money off the dole bludgers and pouring it into health and education, for sure. Some roads too.

[Dave Lobster]

I'd be whistling my tax money off the dole bludgers and pouring it into health and education, for sure. Some roads too.

Don't forget treaty agreements. They're a fucking bargain too.

[rainman]

I'd be whistling my tax money off the dole bludgers and pouring it into health and education, for sure. Some roads too.

I'd tax the crap out of the rich pricks.

:)

[davereid]

I already contribute enough, 40% of my salary to be precise and for the record I do not dodge paying the taxes that the govt say I am liable for.

You also pay another 12.5% when you spend your money. If you own a home you will pay another $2000-$3000 a year in rates. If you insure it ypu will pay another tax, the fire service levy. If you purchase petrol, alcohol, or use a vehicle you will pay another lot, and you will pay government departments, fees they set, for services you dont want, just because they say you must have them.

[Tank]

Did NZ ever have a educated person before interest free government loans?

[peasea]

Don't forget treaty agreements. They're a fucking bargain too.

What the fuck ever. Shoulda shot all the cunts when we had the chance.

Key was right about dinner but the fuckers hate their own history.

[peasea]

Did NZ ever have a educated person before interest free government loans?

For god's sake! That should read "an educated person" so NO!

Fuckwits, I'm surrounded by fuckwits.

[rainman]

...you will pay government departments, fees they set, for services you dont want, just because they say you must have them.

Can you propose a system that, in aggregate, delivers a better set of outcomes to all, considering the equity issues implicit in starting from what we have today? Broad-based taxation has been a popular solution for creating a functioning society for a long time and in many places.


Did NZ ever have a educated person before interest free government loans?

Wasn't it formerly free?


What the fuck ever. Shoulda shot all the cunts when we had the chance.

Key was right about dinner but the fuckers hate their own history.

Lovely. Is all genocide is OK by you, or is it only as long as it's shooting the darkies? I spent a fair chunk of my life fighting racist neanderthals like you, hoped I had moved to a civilised country.

The issue with Key isn't the history. It's his fucking shameful performance in a role that calls for some statesmanship. In any other context he would have been fired. If he had any sense of accountability he'd resign.

[Dave Lobster]

What the fuck ever. Shoulda shot all the cunts when we had the chance.

Key was right about dinner but the fuckers hate their own history.

Whoops.. i missed off my 'sarcasm' icon.. :)

[mashman]

You also pay another 12.5% when you spend your money. If you own a home you will pay another $2000-$3000 a year in rates. If you insure it ypu will pay another tax, the fire service levy. If you purchase petrol, alcohol, or use a vehicle you will pay another lot, and you will pay government departments, fees they set, for services you dont want, just because they say you must have them.

fuckin hell i've got a lot of tax to give... i feel violated... any accountants here that fancy helping me dodge as many taxes as possible :shifty:... then again, I have a social conscience... bollocks, rock and a hard place, fuck 'em, or be fucked...

[peasea]

Whoops.. i missed off my 'sarcasm' icon.. :)

Meaning????????

[Dave Lobster]

Meaning????????

The treaty settlements aren't a bargain for the taxpayer.

[peasea]

The treaty settlements aren't a bargain for the taxpayer.

Have to agree; and the nation cannot afford it. There are too many snouts in a small trough and as usual those with their snouts buried the deepest are only ones who gain. They talk about the good of their tribes but it's the top dogs who run off with all the goodies, never do they share.

[rainman]

Have to agree; and the nation cannot afford it.

Not an issue of budgets but one of justice. Ideally the determination would not be made by the offending party, but whatever. Consider the current Tuhoe issue. I do not know the full details of this so could be missing something significant, but on a simple level if the crown historically stole Tuhoe land (and Tuhoe never signed the treaty, so that is what it looks like) then the crown must give it back. This is not a budget issue, but a justice issue: one of repatriating ill-gotten gains. I understand Tuhoe only want the crown bits too, so as to not create fresh grievances with current commercial owners - that seems pretty grown up to me, tbh.

Imagine I came around to your place and stole your bike (and smacked your family around, if the analogy is to be fully correct, but no matter). I'm much bigger than you, so you don't just come around and grab it back. You know I stole your bike, and you did not lend it to me. I don't lock it up so you can ride it from time to time, but the ownership papers have been changed to my name.

Some time later we start talking about returning it, and you are so keen to get it back you don't mind the fact that I have smashed off a mirror and indicator, and scratched the fairings. That's OK, you just want your bike back. You'll even let me come around and ride it if I want to, just want the ownership back. So we start talking, and during the negotiations I suddenly say "na fuckit it's mine now, not changing, piss off." Then I insult your mother but claim I was only joking.

What would you want to do about this, and how would you feel? It's not an issue of who can afford what, it's an issue of what is right.

Real ethical principles are not subservient to money.


They talk about the good of their tribes but it's the top dogs who run off with all the goodies, never do they share.

Now there I won't disagree with you. So, how would you fix that?

[Dave Lobster]

Imagine I came around to your place and stole your bike (and smacked your family around, if the analogy is to be fully correct, but no matter). I'm much bigger than you, so you don't just come around and grab it back. You know I stole your bike, and you did not lend it to me. I don't lock it up so you can ride it from time to time, but the ownership papers have been changed to my name.


You could always leave it to your great grandchildren to sort out, and they claim back monetary compensation figures that they've pulled from their arses.



So, how would you fix that?
Easy. Stop handing over cash. Tell them to get fucking over it. Earn your own living. Most of the people that have come to this country, or even been born here in the last 100 years didn't agree to the treaty either.

[peasea]

Not an issue of budgets but one of justice.

For shit that happened hundreds of years ago? An apology for some of the shit might be order, might be, and then close the cheque book and move on. Why the fuck whould I/we be paying for age-old screw-ups, if that's what they were.

[peasea]

they claim back monetary compensation figures that they've pulled from their arses.

Stop handing over cash. Tell them to get fucking over it. Earn your own living. Most of the people that have come to this country, or even been born here in the last 100 years didn't agree to the treaty either.

Agreed, thank you.

[rainman]

Good thing we don't all have your sense of justice.

[Dave Lobster]

Good thing we don't all have your sense of justice.

Good thing for the people living off past (alleged) injustices, or good thing for the tax payers?

[Winston001]

Stop handing over cash. Tell them to get fucking over it. Earn your own living.

As a matter of interest Dave, can you tell us how much actual cash?

[mashman]

For shit that happened hundreds of years ago? An apology for some of the shit might be order, might be, and then close the cheque book and move on. Why the fuck whould I/we be paying for age-old screw-ups, if that's what they were.

because that's the way the money train works... and our government do nothing to protect us, the majority, because the minorities now have a UN mandate to screw the country (and it's people) because Key, very very sneakily, signed us up for this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122260-Declaration-could-test-voters-tolerance... so we have ZERO choice in the matter.

[peasea]

because that's the way the money train works... and our government do nothing to protect us, the majority, because the minorities now have a UN mandate to screw the country (and it's people) because Key, very very sneakily, signed us up for this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122260-Declaration-could-test-voters-tolerance... so we have ZERO choice in the matter.

Yes we do.
Guns.
Shoot them in the face.

[Dave Lobster]

As a matter of interest Dave, can you tell us how much actual cash?

I'm too lazy to google it. On top of the cash, how much does it cost government to broker the 'free' agreements? Like the seabed one (more than once), the giving away of all the volcanoes in Auckland, etc?
Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

[davereid]

Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

You don't need a taxpayer funded degree to conclude that giving anyone privilege on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or spiritual beliefs is fundamentally flawed.

Of course if you do have a taxpayer funded degree, you will have doubtlessly been taught that it is ok.

[huff3r]

I'm too lazy to google it. On top of the cash, how much does it cost government to broker the 'free' agreements? Like the seabed one (more than once), the giving away of all the volcanoes in Auckland, etc?
Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

Have they looked over the ditch and seen how tough their old neighbours have it? They think theyve suffered injustice, well guess what. So has any indegenous peoples anywhere in the world. But if it werent for that they would not have a lot of the stuff they take so readily for granted today either. Imagine if the government didnt have any land to start with. Imagine what our (non-existant) roading would be like?

As far as I'm concerned I was born in NZ, I am a kiwi just as much as the next guy, so I dont get why the next guy gets access to hundreds of extra scholarships, gets to vote in a different system I'm locked out of, and gets to ask for money for stuff that happened so long ago no-one actually remembers.

Can't we, as a country, stop living in the past? And just get on with our futures? No wonder so many people ditch NZ once they are done with their degrees, with the high levels of racism and elitism in this country!

[Winston001]

You don't need a taxpayer funded degree to conclude that giving anyone privilege on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or spiritual beliefs is fundamentally flawed.


So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that. :blink:

[Winston001]

I'm too lazy to google it. On top of the cash, how much does it cost government to broker the 'free' agreements? Like the seabed one (more than once), the giving away of all the volcanoes in Auckland, etc?
Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

If you tried a little research Dave you'd discover that most of the Treaty settlements are by way of land and entitlements such as fishing. There isn't actually a lot of cash involved.

As for why do it? Like it or not NZ is a Maori nation and they were treated dishonestly by our forebears. Maori culture and language are unique to NZ. We are better off as a nation if we accept that, make settlement gestures, and lance the angst of Maori people. I can't see any harm in it.

The Canadians are doing the same for Inuit. The USA has recognised Indian reservations to the extent they have their own police and courts. The Australians are 30 years behind us but educated Aboriginals won't go away and we'll see the same process soon over the water.

[mashman]

If you tried a little research Dave you'd discover that most of the Treaty settlements are by way of land and entitlements such as fishing. There isn't actually a lot of cash involved.

As for why do it? Like it or not NZ is a Maori nation and they were treated dishonestly by our forebears. Maori culture and language are unique to NZ. We are better off as a nation if we accept that, make settlement gestures, and lance the angst of Maori people. I can't see any harm in it.

The Canadians are doing the same for Inuit. The USA has recognised Indian reservations to the extent they have their own police and courts. The Australians are 30 years behind us but educated Aboriginals won't go away and we'll see the same process soon over the water.

The bold bit I agree with, but more from the point of view that it will make us closer to being 1 culture... screw making payout claims, we're all to be treated equally I thought... and I would imagine the Maori and i'm talking about the people, not their leaders, would happily go along with it... i may be wrong, but i don't for a minute think they enjoy seeing the society that's around them today either...

[davereid]

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that. :blink:

When did I say that Winston ?

[Winston001]

When did I say that Winston ?

You referred to ethnicity as no reason for privilege. Maori are NZ's ethnic group. They are only 10% of the population but are disproportionately represented in prison, social welfare, and health statistics. If we were all one nation getting along together with no barriers, then Maori would only have 10% of the problems.

Positive discrimination which is also called affirmative action has been politically accepted in the USA to help black americans for decades. Ever since Brown v Board of Education in 1954.

A modern decent society helps its members who are at the bottom of the heap. The Treaty settlements right a few wrongs and give Maori the chance to help themselves. Ngai Tahu for example are very canny and a major force in the tourism industry. As a result they offer scholarships and encouragement. I'd rather see that than Hilton Hotels etc repatriating their profits overseas.

[davereid]

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that. :blink:

... you are saying that you can use race to determine that people are inherently less fortunate and intellectually disadvantaged...

Maybe you can.

Still I guess we will just have to differ here. You can call it affirmative action, I'll call it racism.

Real affirmative action would provide assistance to lift all out of the gutter, not just the racially approved.

[Winston001]

... you are saying that you can use race to determine that people are inherently less fortunate and intellectually disadvantaged...

Maybe you can.

Still I guess we will just have to differ here. You can call it affirmative action, I'll call it racism.

Real affirmative action would provide assistance to lift all out of the gutter, not just the racially approved.

Fair enough. I don't really see it as a racial issue. Instead its a culture, an identifiable group, which in this discussion happens to be the diluted descendants of the humans living in NZ when the Europeans arrived. Quite a few people who look just like white Europeans turn out to be part-Maori and proud of it. I was with a guy this afternoon who looked like a rough white biker, beard and all, turned out to be Maori. No big deal.

Racism incidentally is negative discrimination against a racial group. Positive assistance for such a group is the exact opposite.

If I've been less patient than usual on this thread, I apologise. Also I thought the same as many others when the Treaty industry started but having watched it for 20 years and seen no harm, my views have altered.

[Dave Lobster]

Maori culture and language are unique to NZ. We are better off as a nation if we accept that.


How are we? I can't see a single way that we are.

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that. :blink:
Not the less fortunate. Just the lazy. Personally, I don't see mental people, or wheelchair bound people as that..




You referred to ethnicity as no reason for privilege. Maori are NZ's ethnic group.


And boy, don't we hear about it?!!


They are only 10% of the population but are disproportionately represented in prison, social welfare, and health statistics. If we were all one nation getting along together with no barriers, then Maori would only have 10% of the problems.

They are also disproportionate in gangs, and criminal activity. This has nothing to do with the white man too, does it? I was in a police station a couple of weeks ago, and had a look at their 'most wanted' walls. Not many pale faces on there..
This isn't a maori problem. Other countries have it as well, where one race is pandered to over the others.



Positive discrimination which is also called affirmative action has been politically accepted in the USA to help black americans for decades. Ever since Brown v Board of Education in 1954.


At the expense of whites. And look at the trouble it causes.. There is no such thing as positive discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination. Aparteid is aparteid.


A modern decent society helps its members who are at the bottom of the heap. The Treaty settlements right a few wrongs and give Maori the chance to help themselves. Ngai Tahu for example are very canny and a major force in the tourism industry. As a result they offer scholarships and encouragement. I'd rather see that than Hilton Hotels etc repatriating their profits overseas.
A modern decent society helps those that need help. Not the ones that are at the bottom of the heap because they didn't pay attention at school, etc.
The treaty doesn't right wrongs. The treaty makes a lot of people pissed off, and a handful of people very rich.
To whom are these scholarships offered? Is it a criteria based on race? Imagine if a company only offered scholarships to white people (or indian people). How bad would that be??

[davereid]

Racism incidentally is negative discrimination against a racial group. Positive assistance for such a group is the exact opposite.

So if you positively assist a minority racial group thats OK ?.

I'm sure white south africa wished you had spoken out 20 years ago !

The trouble with positive assistance for one racial group, is that it means that by definition that funding is not available for other racial groups.

Surely its impossibly to "positively assist" maori without being racist to the Tongans, Samoans, Vietnamese or whoever who may have similar need for assistance, but don't qualify because of their race ?

[Dave Lobster]

So if you positively assist a minority racial group thats OK ?.

I'm sure white south africa wished you had spoken out 20 years ago !



Any group except white people ;)

[mashman]

This is where NZ is heading... Research from the UK...

"Also, degrees are expensive. The average student leaves university with debts totalling £15,700 and the current average graduates starting salary is just £22,300. Even if your salary goes up every year by almost 5%, it will still take you around 12 years to pay off your debt, which will cost you even more than you think ."

Ya reckon people will stay here to pay back the 40000K student loan???

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/14052010/389/best-worst-paying-college-degrees.html

[Dave Lobster]

This is where NZ is heading... Research from the UK...

"Also, degrees are expensive. The average student leaves university with debts totalling £15,700 and the current average graduates starting salary is just £22,300. Even if your salary goes up every year by almost 5%, it will still take you around 12 years to pay off your debt, which will cost you even more than you think ."


Depends what degree you do. Mrs Lobster came out of university with 40k (in pounds) of debt. Paid off inside four years.
But then she didn't piss her wages up the wall on booze/drugs/chavved up cars/fags/etc.
And she didn't have a whinge and a cry about it either. Or expect a handout.

[mashman]

Depends what degree you do. Mrs Lobster came out of university with 40k (in pounds) of debt. Paid off inside four years.
But then she didn't piss her wages up the wall on booze/drugs/chavved up cars/fags/etc.
And she didn't have a whinge and a cry about it either. Or expect a handout.

Congrats to Mrs Lobster, am sure she worked hard for it.