Countersteering vs body leaning?

[schrodingers cat]

Read a couple of really interesting articles recently.


http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0110_art/index.html

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

[Hitcher]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done. Interestingly none have agreed to have a spot of weld attached to their steering heads in order to test these theories.

[crazzed]

my useless 2 cents worth is using both, depends where and when though.

as your were

[CookMySock]

Of course you can steer with your weight - move your arse and shoulders far to the left and the bike (in it's own time) will initiate a lazy turn to the left. The trouble is, this is a really inconcise way to steer a bike. Miscalculate or roll over a surface irregularity and the bike responds too early or way too late and then you have to fine-tune with bar pressure.

There's no point steering wth your arse - it's too slow. There are two reasons to put your weight inwards - conserving your angle of lean because you're going to need it, and being in the correct posture should you have to tip in really deep should you need to.. Let's not forget also - it's fun.

Steve

[rustic101]

I use a body shift (I guess that's leaning?) for minor corrections or avoidance. Only tend to do it when splitting at a quick pace.

[crash harry]

Have a search around on the intarwebs for Keith Code's experiments with the "No BS" bike (BS = Body Steering = Bullshit) - a bike with a second set of bars that are fixed to the chassis so you can't countersteer it. He found that even the best riders can only initiate a really lazy wide turn, and it was really hard to control. When people say "I don't use countersteering" or "I use weight shifts to steer the bike" what they mean is "I don't know that I'm using countersteering" but they still are.

This video shows the "No BS" bike in action..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

[rustic101]

This video shows the "No BS" bike in action..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

Bloody interesting video - I guess I use counter steering then lol Cheers for that was not even aware.

[Smifffy]

Counter-steering is a very un PC and negative term, I think they are trying to get it called pro-unsteering, and the select committee is now calling for public submissions on the laws of physics, with a view to updating them for the new millenium and possible inclusion in a non-binding public referendum at the next election.

Power to the people!! - please make your vote count

[marty]

omg here we go again :)

Search gyroscopic presession.

[BMWST?]

ANY bicyle type vehicle is controlled by countersteering,body weight can steer a motorcycle but nothing like a good yank on the bars

[NighthawkNZ]

All two wheeled conptraptions counter steer... and it natrually does it... when you talk counter steering all you are doing is enhancing what the bike is doing natrually to get round a corner.

Steering by weight and or just leaning is only a very very small part that helps the counter steering process. Take the counter steering out of the equation all you will do is veer the bike off course not actually steer it and that is both just leaning and weight shift.

My suggestion is you need to watch the video "Twist of the wrist II". It explains it all and puts the science behind it.

[Urano]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done

:shit::shit::shit:
are you kiddin me??
counter steer is a very basical and widely known driving action: there's no way of gettin a bike where you want if you didn't realize hows the counter steering acts...




THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.
My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.
Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

now, wait a minute: countersteering is another than using pegs.
so first let's clarify a point: with two wheels (heavy wheels, like motorbikes one) spinning at high rpm, it's pretty hard to achieve a noticeable turn without counter steering.
it's so easy to understand: put yourself in a wide empty park, reach 40-50 kmh stand upright seated without touching the bar, and then, with just your index finger slowly PUSH forward the weight at one end of the handle bar.
the bike will turn on that side.
this is countersteer and is the only way to turn the bike quickly, and to reach the desired lean angle quickly enough to be stabilized in the right position to go through the corner.
not using the countersteer force you to have a continuous lean all through the corner and you'll probably reach the right lean angle at the time you have to get the bike up again at the end of the turn: this not permit to stabilize the motorbike on a track, and you'll go through the corner with continuous corrections...
pretty scary, i'd say...

the pegs is a different talk.
long story short, the bike turns around its center of gravity, which is usually between the engine and the tank.
if you are sit on the saddle, your weight acts on the saddle. if you stand up a little, like a run on a horse, your weight acts on the pegs, which are 20 cm lower and closer to the bike cg.
so the masses are less spread, and the action is quicker, and require less force...

now the sequence.
everyone has his riding style, so everybody will do his way, and it's no sure that what i'm going to say will fit for you.
more than this, remember ALWAYS that theory has to be met with REALITY of roads with incoming traffic, buses, houses...
so the best is to know the theory, adapt it to your style, but most of all, KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN, and be safe.
it's useless to know how to start a turn at 140kmh if round the corner a land rover is still in the middle of the lane.

i'll do this way:
keep near the external edge, but not too much getting the debris and sand always present...
look at the tarmac on the turn, and decide the line to avoid holes, stones, leaves, oil...
start to brake, pretty much front only, while downshifting. the downshift acts like a rear brake...
stop braking when you decide to start turning. i heard a lot of rider, professionals too, that say that's necessary to keep the brake on while leaning the bike: i respect the position, and probably if you're fighting for the podium you'll have to. i'm not, so i prefer to have the bike completely stable before entering the turn.
while the fork is releasing, push the external peg and slide your butt half way off the saddle. turn your internal foot to the inside of the turn, keeping the end of the peg under your footfingers (where the fingers connect to the plant... sorry, i don't know how to explain better it in english...): this will open your inside knee, and put the tank on your external thigh.
now you're ready to turn: so push the internal end of the handle bar and lean the bike. quick. you have to turn.
if you are on a track, the internal knee will tell you how much you are leaning, and how remains before you kiss the ground... if you are not it is not necessary to drive like rossi, so keep it on the safe side...
you are now at the entering speed, with the right gear (remember that leaning the bike will be like having a gear LOWER than when you are upright, so don't downshift too much) and with the bike leaned at the right angle.
LOOK AHEAD at the end of the turn: you have looked at the tarmac BEFORE entering the turn, so there should be nothing new for you. better to look where you are going to...
now, gently, open the throttle, smoothly and continuously.
near the end of the turn start to getting the bike upright, while continuing revving up.
reaching the rpm to upshift at the end of the turn you should be almost right.
and that's it.

the difficult part for me was to lean the bike quick enough.
if you make a slow lean you cannot kwon the the line the bike is going to make, you have probably to brake because you are gone too near the inside of the turn without having turn yet, and everything becomes a mess...
in a 70-80 kmh turn, the things should be: brakes and gear (take your time, no hurry), out the butt, push the bar and lean (at this speed 2 second is decent, 3-4 keeps you in the middle of the turn still working on the bike: too much), smooth throttle, and go...

and please remember to BE SAFE: there always will be someone faster and better than you. look and learn...
hope to be useful... :niceone:

[p.dath]

This is a good description, including the maths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

[oldrider]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done. Interestingly none have agreed to have a spot of weld attached to their steering heads in order to test these theories.

Basically the reason why I ride a bike, I (and my passenger) are participating and involved symbiotically with the whole process! :ride:

Driving or riding in a car by comparison, is simply a mundane and boring event. :doh:

[eelracing]

:shit::shit::shit:
are you kiddin me??
counter steer is a very basical and widely known driving action: there's no way of gettin a bike where you want if you didn't realize hows the counter steering acts...:

Hitcher was just taking the urine old son.

Your English is a hell of alot better than my Italian ...which is nil,but thanks for a bloody good laugh.
Footfingers is priceless:niceone:

[MSTRS]

There are different ways of achieving the mechanics of it, but....
COUNTERSTEERING IS THE ONLY WAY A BIKE IS GOING TO START A TURN

[CookMySock]

There are different ways of achieving the mechanics of it, but....
COUNTERSTEERING IS THE ONLY WAY A BIKE IS GOING TO START A TURNIf you sit off the side of the bike, why do you need opposite bar pressure from preventing it initiating a turn?

(try it - ride along a straight road, sit well to one side, let the bike stabilise, and release the bars.)

Steve

[onearmedbandit]

If you sit off the side of the bike, why do you need opposite bar pressure from preventing it initiating a turn?

(try it - ride along a straight road, sit well to one side, let the bike stabilise, and release the bars.)

Steve

Because your weight transfer is initiating the countersteer.

[Crisis management]

I think we are missing a valuable part of this discussion...where does one put ones' arse to initiate the turn, at the apex and when exiting?



True believers of bum steering are not amused by the light hearted approach to this most gripping topic, call us anal if you will, but practioners of the technigue feel moved to share the deeply satisfying sensation of higher sphincter control.








Counter steering.....really!

[CookMySock]

Because your weight transfer is initiating the countersteer.My understanding of "countersteering" is that it is "applying force to the bars in the opposite direction of the required turn." If there is no force applied to the bars, then there is no "countersteering."


Steve

[eelracing]

I think we are missing a valuable part of this discussion...where does one put ones' arse to initiate the turn, at the apex and when exiting?


Do you really need to ask when Urano states it so succinctly ...and I quote

"while the fork is releasing, push the external peg and slide your butt half way off the saddle. turn your internal foot to the inside of the turn, keeping the end of the peg under your footfingers (where the fingers connect to the plant... sorry, i don't know how to explain better it in english...): this will open your inside knee, and put the tank on your external thigh.
now you're ready to turn: so push the internal end of the handle bar and lean the bike. quick. you have to turn."



Keith Code has nothing on this cat.

[onearmedbandit]

My understanding of "countersteering" is that it is "applying force to the bars in the opposite direction of the required turn." If there is no force applied to the bars, then there is no "countersteering."


Steve

Well my understanding (don't know if it carries the same weight as yours as I didn't underline it) is that 'countersteering' is the process the front wheel goes through to acheive a turn, the front wheel actually countersteers the bike through the turn, not the handlebars. The handlebars are just one method of initiating countersteer.

[MSTRS]

Well my understanding (don't know if it carries the same weight as yours as I didn't underline it) is that 'countersteering' is the process the front wheel goes through to acheive a turn, the front wheel actually countersteers the bike through the turn, not the handlebars. The handlebars are just one method of initiating countersteer.

Nope. Countersteer is what must happen to initiate a turn. Once the turn is happening, normal steering is taking place.

In other words, what ever method you use to turn, countersteer WILL happen only when the turn is being started. Thereafter, the wheel is pointing (slightly) towards the direction the bike is turning.

[onearmedbandit]

Nope. Countersteer is what must happen to initiate a turn. Once the turn is happening, normal steering is taking place.

In other words, what ever method you use to turn, countersteer WILL happen only when the turn is being started. Thereafter, the wheel is pointing (slightly) towards the direction the bike is turning.
Yes you're right, I should've been clearer. Countersteer initiates the turn, it doesn't, as I incorrectly put it, take the bike through the turn. Thanks for pointing out the error in my post.

[bogan]

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that guy countersteers

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that one doesn't

nuff said.

[davebullet]

My understanding of "countersteering" is that it is "applying force to the bars in the opposite direction of the required turn." If there is no force applied to the bars, then there is no "countersteering."


Steve

There are two ways to initiate a counter steer
1. Direct hand force on the bars
2. Pivoting the bike at the steering head

Think about how your body weight shift, causes 2. above. That will bake your noodle.

Therefore your movement generates countersteer. The reason you don't perceive this, is, as you know it take very very little bar movement to initiate a turn. The faster the speed the bigger the mess. Damn, getting confused... the faster the speed, the more subtle the movement required.

Let's break this down.

I violently dump all my weight on the left foot peg
This pushes the bike left of centre - pivoting the bars toward the right around the steering head
The bike therefore is countersteering without my direct bar input

Of course, we naturally want to keep the bike upright, so we apply right hand push force to counter the counter steer and keep the bike straight.

Well, so my cat tells me....

Waving threads have also been known to generate counter steer.

[slofox]

If you have to think about it, you might well be in trouble.

I've said this before - I have no idea how I go around a corner. I see the corner and the bike goes round it..most of the time...I hope...usually...well...apart from that time when...err...never mind

[schrodingers cat]

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

Thank you Urano and Dave Bullet for actually reading and comprehending what it was I was asking.

Everyone else - EPIC FAIL.

HAving said that, I expected a 90/10 bullshit sense ratio from KB

[slofox]

[QUOTE=bogan;1129751212

nuff said.[/QUOTE]

I prefer the second video...

[bogan]

Thank you Urano and Dave Bullet for actually reading and comprehending what it was I was asking.

Everyone else - EPIC FAIL.

HAving said that, I expected a 90/10 bullshit sense ratio from KB

perhaps a better thread title next time? or even use the search function :dodge:

[R-Soul]

Bloody interesting video - I guess I use counter steering then lol Cheers for that was not even aware.

Yes check this out too.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

If you dont do countersteering, you can treally steer.

Sometimes in shifting your weight, you unknowingly push forward on an inside bar (for eg if drppping an inside shoulder into acorner) which causes counter steering (even though you may think its weight change causing the steering- it isn't).

Its better to know what is actually causing teh steering - so that you dont (unsuccessfully) try and do stuff with shfiting weight/leanining etc in an emergency situation.

Also let be clear on this- its NOT pushing up or down (relative the ground) its pushing forward/backwards. Nothing else.

The final steering/leaning effect is mainly because of a combination of two other effects
1) Gyroscopic precession (when moving a gyroscope in one direction - forward/backwards- you get a reaction force acting in a direction 90 degrees to the exerted force - left/ right - which pushes the bike over). Gyroscopic precession gives you about 30% or less of the leaning effect.
3) Movement of bike out from underneath rider. Looking from the front, when the rider is staying still, and the bike wheel contact patch moves out left, the bike will start falling over to the right (and vice versa) under teh weight fo eth bike and rider. The bike can be looked at as an inverted pendulum. When it starts falling, it will keep falling unless balanced by cornering forces, or by a change in counter steering again to right it. thsi effect accounts for most of teh leaning effect.

Weight shift probably has about 2-5% effect in comparision. Not much steering effect there at all.

The faster the bike is going, the more gyroscopic stability it will have from its own rotating wheels, and the more conrnering forces it will be subject to, making it more difficult to lean in (and sometimes necessitating a real hard push/pull).

[AllanB]

Some people over-think this shit way too much!!!!!!


Whatever style you use, ensure to allow for the unbalanced weight of your penis if you dress left or right (not necessary if you have a freaky snake-tongue dick, just flop one each side for perfect balance).

[R-Soul]

Also- the footpeg weighting thing:

Footpeg weighting does NOT steer teh bike.

What it does is make the bike feel (at least subjectively) more settled in a corner. If you look at a bike from the front, the pivot point is teh contact patch with the ground. The further away the rider is firmly connected to the bike from the pivot point - such as at the saddle- the more unbalanced the rider will be on the bike.

This is because small movements of the rider will create reation forces on the bike at a longer distance from the pivot point (and hence use a longer lever arm to move the bike about its pivot point). If the biker is firmly connected to the bike at a lower place -such as the footpegs-, then movements by the rider are transferred as reaction forces to the bike via the footpegs (thereby usinga shorter lever arm), and unsettling the bike less.

[R-Soul]

Well my understanding (don't know if it carries the same weight as yours as I didn't underline it) is that 'countersteering' is the process the front wheel goes through to acheive a turn, the front wheel actually countersteers the bike through the turn, not the handlebars. The handlebars are just one method of initiating countersteer.

No the handlebars are the only (effective) method of initiating countersteer.
See the No BS bike link above.

[R-Soul]

If you sit off the side of the bike, why do you need opposite bar pressure from preventing it initiating a turn?

(try it - ride along a straight road, sit well to one side, let the bike stabilise, and release the bars.)

Steve

Look at a bike at rest. With you sitting on it. Assume you and teh bike are perfectly balanced so that ist stand up. this is how teh bike is travelling in a straght line - at rest.

Now if you move your bodyweight to one side, the bike acts like an inverted pendulum,and will fall that side. Caused by your unbalabced bodyweight. But the actual size of the unbalanced force is very little (at least at at first - once the bike is over a lot, then there is a lot of force pushing the bike over - same as counter steering). So little initial leaning force is generated that it is not NEARLY enough to actually lean a moving bike quickly and effectively (since a moving bike is also subject to a stabilising gyroscopic force from the rotating wheels).

Which is counter steering by pushing/pulling on the bars is much more effective. It moves the bike out from under a rider, and gives a strong leaning force quickly by moving the bike and rider into a position so that their own weight can act effectively to lean the bike.

When you set up your body weight for a corner, this does start initiating the turn (too slowly to actually accomplish any turn but the widest ones) and may cause your line to be inciorrect because of teh early turn. So you counter steer to keep tehe bike on line untioil you have reached your proper turn in point, and then use counter steering on the bars to do it quickly.

[bogan]

Also- the footpeg weighting thing:

Footpeg weighting does NOT steer teh bike.

What it does is make the bike feel (at least subjectively) more settled in a corner. If you look at a bike from the front, the pivot point is teh contact patch with the ground. The further away the rider is firmly connected to the bike from the pivot point - such as at the saddle- the more unbalanced the rider will be on the bike.

This is because small movements of the rider will create reation forces on the bike at a longer distance from the pivot point (and hence use a longer lever arm to move the bike about its pivot point). If the biker is firmly connected to the bike at a lower place -such as the footpegs-, then movements by the rider are transferred as reaction forces to the bike via the footpegs (thereby usinga shorter lever arm), and unsettling the bike less.

yes it does, the no BS bike only proves the direct relation between countersteering and corner entry. Weighting a footpeg does effictively steer the bike, as does leaning and bum steering, most who try these techniques will tell you this. The conclusion I draw from that is they are all techniques which indirectly (and unconciously) result in countersteering; so while the bar push method is the most direct, who's to say its the best?

[R-Soul]

yes it does, the no BS bike only proves the direct relation between countersteering and corner entry. Weighting a footpeg does effictively steer the bike, as does leaning and bum steering, most who try these techniques will tell you this. The conclusion I draw from that is they are all techniques which indirectly (and unconciously) result in countersteering; so while the bar push method is the most direct, who's to say its the best?

No it does not - shimmying the bike's headstock around to incrementally change the steering geometry does NO EFFECTIVE STEERING.

From your comments I see you are defining countersteering as the movement of the front wheel outwards to create bike lean in. This is not what I define as counter steering, which is actual pushing/pulling on the bars (consciously or not) .

But you can test your claim. I have already.
Take your hands off the bars on an empty road, hold the tank instead, and weight the pegs the way you claim to do to initate front wheel movement outwards. You will get effectively no steering.

If you are defining countersteering as "pushing on bars to turn", then your argument is silly. I can claim that sittting side saddle and kicking the bars with my feet is the best way of initiating countersteering (as long as there is actually a push/pull on the bars at the end). But at the end of the day it is better to know how to do it the most direct way, or else you are just wasting energy.

[MSTRS]

... so while the bar push method is the most direct, who's to say its the best?

Do you know something that MILLIONS of 2 wheeled riders have never discovered in over 100 years?

[bogan]

If you are defining countersteering as "pushing on bars to turn", then your argument is silly. I can claim that sittting side saddle and kicking the bars with my feet is the best way of initiating countersteering (as long as there is actually a push/pull on the bars at the end). But at the end of the day it is better to know how to do it the most direct way, or else you are just wasting energy.

I'm defining it as steering in the opposite direction (even just a little bit) to initiate a turn, so the later point I will address. And no, the most direct method is not always the best, ABS brakes is the perfect case, if you are good enough you can stop quicker without them (though only just compared to the new ones), but the majority of us could not. The same can be said for countersteering, by all means try all techniques, but at the end of the day the one you are most comfortable using will save you arse in an emergency situation.


Do you know something that MILLIONS of 2 wheeled riders have never discovered in over 100 years?

see above sentence

[R-Soul]

I'm defining it as steering in the opposite direction (even just a little bit) to initiate a turn, so the later point I will address. And no, the most direct method is not always the best, ABS brakes is the perfect case, if you are good enough you can stop quicker without them (though only just compared to the new ones), but the majority of us could not. The same can be said for countersteering, by all means try all techniques, but at the end of the day the one you are most comfortable using will save you arse in an emergency situation.

What a load of tripe! You think about that the next time you have overcooked a corner, and are crossing the white line with oncoming cars ahead, cats eyes are hindering your abilityt transfer weight to your pegs, and for some reason you can't get IMMEDIATE steering from weighting your pegs. When all you have to do is push on th bar. Yeah, it may be reeeal comfortable for all of the one second that you have left on the planet....

Logically, the technique that operates the most directly and gives you the quickest response is the one you should be using always, and making it into a good habit.

Are you actually arguing that you should use a less direct, more vague way to control your bike because it "feels more comfortable"? From your previous posts re technical things, I thought you had a good sense of logic.

By all means accompany effective counter steering with whatever associated body movements you want if it makes you feel comfortable, and teh bike more settled, but just KNOW where the real steering control is coming from and be able to rely on that knowledge in emergencies.

[R-Soul]

I'm defining it as steering in the opposite direction (even just a little bit) to initiate a turn, so the later point I will address. And no, the most direct method is not always the best, ABS brakes is the perfect case, if you are good enough you can stop quicker without them (though only just compared to the new ones), but the majority of us could not. The same can be said for countersteering, by all means try all techniques, but at the end of the day the one you are most comfortable using will save you arse in an emergency situation.

see above sentence

And your ABS example is not relevant - it doesn't even fit the analogy.

[Crisis management]

Thank you Urano and Dave Bullet for actually reading and comprehending what it was I was asking.

Everyone else - EPIC FAIL.

Having said that, I expected a 90/10 bullshit sense ratio from KB

You certainly need a sense of humour for here...:innocent:

However, although Urano is 90% correct (IMHO) Dave is unfortunately incorrect regarding footpeg weighting (inside peg), like most of us we all do some of the stuff right but I wouldn't accept anyones word as absolutely correct, read everything and glean the bits that make sense to you from it, try it out and learn as you go.

Or go to the Superbike school.

[bogan]

What a load of tripe! You think about that the next time you have overcooked a corner, and are crossing the white line with oncoming cars ahead, cats eyes are hindering your abilityt transfer weight to your pegs, and for some reason you can't get IMMEDIATE steering from weighting your pegs. When all you have to do is push on th bar. Yeah, it may be reeeal comfortable for all of the one second that you have left on the planet....

Logically, the technique that operates the most directly and gives you the quickest response is the one you should be using always, and making it into a good habit.

Are you actually arguing that you should use a less direct, more vague way to control your bike because it "feels more comfortable"? From your previous posts re technical things, I thought you had a good sense of logic.

By all means accompany effective counter steering with whatever associated body movements you want if it makes you feel comfortable, and teh bike more settled, but just KNOW where the real steering control is coming from and be able to rely on that knowledge in emergencies.

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.


And your ABS example is not relevant - it doesn't even fit the analogy.

how so? I thought it fit very well

[MSTRS]

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.


As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...

[StoneY]

Bloody interesting video - I guess I use counter steering then lol Cheers for that was not even aware.

As are many others mate
Fact is leaning causes you to put pressure on the 'inside' bar eg the one on the side your turning toward, and that means your pushing that bar out...eg countersteering
Had this discsuiion with a mate, and when he actively counterseered he realised how much more positive control and reaction time he gained

[R-Soul]

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.

Keep in mind that other relative newbies might be reading this and trying to make sense of counter steering from it. I agree that youu should use what comes naturally, since you will probably revert to it in panic situations. But then why not ingrain the most direct method to be the one that comes naturally? By using it all the time?


how so? I thought it fit very well

Well we are comparing techniques, while your ABS example is a comparison of hardware. We are talking about learning and unlearning and relearning thee most effective technique for riding a bike, not which system is teh most effective. for both suystems, the optimum technique is progressively grabbing a fistful of brake, and modulating it until it is just at that point before the tyre breaks traction. Its just on an ABS bike, if you DO break traction, the system kicks in and modulates the brakes automatically. If you are not, you have to release the brake and reapply again. Your good technique on an non-ABS system would still be good technique on an ABS system. The ABS system just helps you if you dont have good technique.

[MSTRS]

Here's a little exercise....
On a deserted road, using the dotted lanes marking, at a speed of (say) 30kph, weave in and out of the lines, using your normal steering style. Then do it again at 40kph. Then 50kph. Then 60kph. And so on.
The faster you travel at, the greater the effort needed to flick the bike in and out. If anyone can do that without pushing, and/or pulling, on the bars, then that person is a riding god...

[varminter]

Now, if we can just get a bit about waving in here as well we should have the ultimate contentious thread.

[R-Soul]

The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.



What if your particular sub method focussed on pushing down on pegs. And if you try to push too hard down on pegs instead of focussing on bars, you actually start pulling on bars to get more leverage for yorur misguided attempst at pushing down on pegs?
So in an emergency situation, at the time you need to be pushing hardest on bars, you are actually focussed on something else completely, which may or may not have the result of doing anything to the bars.

Some riders feel that it comes more naturally to wrestle with the bars, in effect pushing /pulling upwards/downwards instead of forwards/ backwards. One result of their efforts at wrestling is that a small component of their effort up and down causes the slight backwards/forwards movement required for countersteering, but because they are wasting so much energy pushing up/down on immovable bars, they can never get really quick effective steering because it would take too much effort from them.

Yes it may be natural, and even comfortable, but its rubbish!

[bogan]

As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...


Keep in mind that other relative newbies might be reading this and trying to make sense of counter steering from it. I agree that youu should use what comes naturally, since you will probably revert to it in panic situations. But then why not ingrain the most direct method to be the one that comes naturally? By using it all the time?

OK then counter-steering is the best technique if done well, but you still gotta practice it to make it your best technique.



Well we are comparing techniques, while your ABS example is a comparison of hardware. We are talking about learning and unlearning and relearning thee most effective technique for riding a bike, not which system is teh most effective. for both suystems, the optimum technique is progressively grabbing a fistful of brake, and modulating it until it is just at that point before the tyre breaks traction. Its just on an ABS bike, if you DO break traction, the system kicks in and modulates the brakes automatically. If you are not, you have to release the brake and reapply again. Your good technique on an non-ABS system would still be good technique on an ABS system. The ABS system just helps you if you dont have good technique.

Systems, techniques, in both cases its sometimes easier to go with the easier less thinking approach rather than becoming good enough at that skill to make it worth using, thats why I offered that example.


What if your particular sub method focussed on pushing down on pegs. And if you try to push too hard down on pegs instead of focussing on bars, you actually start pulling on bars to get more leverage for yorur misguided attempst at pushing down on pegs?
So in an emergency situation, at the time you need to be pushing hardest on bars, you are actually focussed on something else completely, which may or may not have the result of doing anything to the bars.

Some riders feel that it comes more naturally to wrestle with the bars, in effect pushing /pulling upwards/downwards instead of forwards/ backwards. One result of their efforts at wrestling is that a small component of their effort up and down causes the slight backwards/forwards movement required for countersteering, but because they are wasting so much energy pushing up/down on immovable bars, they can never get really quick effective steering because it would take too much effort from them.

Well one assumes the rider is not a complete idiot, and if it comes naturally, you are not focusing on it!



Yes it may be natural, and even comfortable, but its rubbish!

Rubbish is somewhat of a strong term, if 'rubbish' gets you round corners easily I got no problem with it!

[MSTRS]

OK then counter-steering is the best technique if done well, but you still gotta practice it to make it your best technique.



Countersteering is the ONLY way you are going to start cornering. And indeed, straightening up afterwards.
How you achieve it is somewhat up to the individual, but at the end of the day, there is no more effective way than the push/pull on the bars. All other inputs may be of assistance, but in and of themselves, are not very effective.

[R-Soul]

OK then counter-steering is the best technique if done well, but you still gotta practice it to make it your best technique.

Thats my point exactly - but at least establish what is the best technique first and then ride it every day. Dont just settle on a poor technque because it "does the job". Because when the shit hits the fan, you want the best technique you can muster. And you want it to be second nature.


Systems, techniques, in both cases its sometimes easier to go with the easier less thinking approach rather than becoming good enough at that skill to make it worth using, thats why I offered that example.

In normal, carefree riding it may just do. Nobody is forcing you develop good technique. And when your technique is not good enough to pull you through, you have nobody to blame but yourself. But dont go around advising others that bad technique is "good enough" because it uses "less thinking".

The OP didn't ask what technique was good enough for functional riding, but will ultimately let him down. Nobody comesonto these forums asking for the second best techniques that will waste a lot of energy doing nothing, but will eventually get the job done if you do it hard enough.



Well one assumes the rider is not a complete idiot, and if it comes naturally, you are not focusing on it!
I meant that in a bad situation you may be doing what comes naturally, but because what you are doing (at its extremes) has little effect on what really makes the difference, it remains inneffective- regardless of whether you are focussing on it or not. You can do you natural thing as hard as you want, but its still doesn't do what you need it to do, better. Did that line make sense?



Rubbish is somewhat of a strong term, if 'rubbish' gets you round corners easily I got no problem with it!

OK change it to "relatively inefficient and potentially lethal"

[bogan]

Countersteering is the ONLY way you are going to start cornering. And indeed, straightening up afterwards.
How you achieve it is somewhat up to the individual, but at the end of the day, there is no more effective way than the push/pull on the bars. All other inputs may be of assistance, but in and of themselves, are not very effective.

countersteering the physics thing is the only way you are going to start cornering, but technique-wise its not, It is hard to distinguish between the two on forums. And straighting up can be done by adding plenty of speed too!


Thats my point exactly - but at least establish what is the best technique first and then ride it every day. Dont just settle on a poor technque because it "does the job". Because when the shit hits the fan, you want the best technique you can muster. And you want it to be second nature.

In normal, carefree riding it may just do. Nobody is forcing you develop good technique. And when your technique is not good enough to pull you through, you have nobody to blame but yourself. But dont go around advising others that bad technique is "good enough" because it uses "less thinking".

I haven't said use bad techniques cos they use less thinking, I have said try them all and do whatever you think is best.



The OP didn't asked what was technique was good enough for functional riding, but will ultimately let you down. Nobody comesonto these forums asking for the second best techniques.


Well if we go back to the OP the safest answer is obviously both.



I meant that in a bad situation you may be doing what comes naturally, but because what you are doing (at its extremes) has little effect on what really makes the difference, it remains inneffective- regardless of whether you are focussing on it or not. You can do you natural thing as hard as you want, but its still doesn't do what you need it to do, better. Did that line make sense?

yup, we're basically just repeating ourselves now, you guys saying countersteering (the technique) offers better performance if done right, me saying it aint the only way to do it, and I have agreed it is the best if done properly.

[CookMySock]

I violently dump all my weight on the left foot peg
This pushes the bike left of centre - pivoting the bars toward the right around the steering head
The bike therefore is countersteering without my direct bar input..

Of course, we naturally want to keep the bike upright, so we apply right hand push force to counter the counter steer and keep the bike straight.yup. Makes sense.

I think it's important to distinguish between "pushing on the bars to initiate a corner", or "tipping your weight around to initiate a corner." Any two-wheeled contraption momentarily turns the opposite way before committing to a turn, but I use the term "countersteering" to refer to the riders' deliberate action of pushing on the bars.

So all bikes countersteer. They must do.

All riders do not countersteer.


Steve

[schrodingers cat]

Woo Hoo - Cage fight! As Bogan said maybe next time I will be more careful choosing my thread title. My bad for expecting anyone to read the body of text.

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way. The trick is (and this is what I was missing) is to get your bum slightly off the seat to ensure your mass acts through the footpedal not your ass crack.

Anyway - carry on the bitch fight. I'll get me a beer

[bogan]

Woo Hoo - Cage fight! As Bogan said maybe next time I will be more careful choosing my thread title. My bad for expecting anyone to read the body of text.

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way. The trick is (and this is what I was missing) is to get your bum slightly off the seat to ensure your mass acts through the footpedal not your ass crack.

Anyway - carry on the bitch fight. I'll get me a beer

haha, this is kb, and that was no bitchfight, only vague (at best) insults were even traded :P

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push. So same hand as side I am thinking of, must be brain sides or something!

[CookMySock]

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badlyI suggest that type of thinking is a mistake.


A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way.Subtle is a good word to describe that. Suffice to say, if you really need to steer or re-steer in a great hurry, "subtle" is little or no use to you. A solid heave on the bars is the only thing that will save you.

Discussing countersteering for personal interest, or with the intent of resolving someone elses' opinion into your own personal resolution is all good, but what will save your life is being able to faithfully (sometimes faithlessly) do it in a blind panic without fear, hesitation, or question.

All motorbikes countersteer. Not all riders can. Make sure you can, and make sure you can do it automatically.

Steve

[R-Soul]

countersteering the physics thing is the only way you are going to start cornering, but technique-wise its not, It is hard to distinguish between the two on forums. And straighting up can be done by adding plenty of speed too!

Thats like saying that the best way of painting a house is by dipping your brush, dabbing it on your face, and then applying the paint. And then, when someone points out that perhaps dabbing it on your face is not required, saying that it is becuase it makes you feel subjectively more comfortable in hot weather.



I haven't said use bad techniques cos they use less thinking, I have said try them all and do whatever you think is best.

No, you said that if it comes naturally because you dont have to think about it, even if its not the most effective way, then its best.

I argue that if you are using a subcoinscious act that is a by-product of a misplaced action to carry out bike control, then you are on scary ground. Because that technique may only work in normal everyday situations and not in extreme ones.

I believe that riders should start off on the basis of learning the most effective way that works in all situations, and make that the habit that comes naturally. What you're saying effectively is "persist in bad habits because they are already there and you can do them without thinking".




Well if we go back to the OP the safest answer is obviously both.

What if both are not always capable of being applied simutlaneously? What if doing one is distracting you from carrying out the most effective action to teh best of your ability?


yup, we're basically just repeating ourselves now, you guys saying countersteering (the technique) offers better performance if done right, me saying it aint the only way to do it, and I have agreed it is the best if done properly.

OK just to get this clear: The act of getting the bar to turn can only be done by actually turning the bar. You may believe that standingn a peg causes the bar to turn, but I am saying that does not. It is you either:
- tensing up your shoulder movement, or
- dropping your shoulder into a corner, or
- subconscious movement from shifting your bum or
- whatever else

But the fact is that the turning is coming from the direct application of force on the bar. Nothing else.

[R-Soul]

haha, this is kb, and that was no bitchfight, only vague (at best) insults were even traded :P

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push. So same hand as side I am thinking of, must be brain sides or something!

hehe yeah on KB this is regarded as scientific debate?
Thats a very interesting observation. I will try it out on the way home now...

[bogan]

Thats like saying that the best way of painting a house is by dipping your brush, dabbing it on your face, and then applying the paint. And then, when someone points out that perhaps dabbing it on your face is not required, saying that it is becuase it makes you feel subjectively more comfortable in hot weather.

nope, thats a straw man argument, you should trying reading posts with an open mind, it can be quite enlightening I find. A more apt analogy would be a guy who paints using a roller who is shown a spray paint gun, once he learns how to use the gun properly he will be a much more efficient painter with a better finish quality, but to start off with he will probably get uneven coverage or runs.



No, you said that if it comes naturally because you dont have to think about it, even if its not the most effective way, then its best.


and I stand by that, to use countersteering effectively (especially in an emergency situation) it has to come naturally.



I argue that if you are using a subcoinscious act that is a by-product of a misplaced action to carry out bike control, then you are on scary ground. Because that technique may only work in normal everyday situations and not in extreme ones.


dude, we get it, countersteering has the potential to be better than other techniques in these situations.



I believe that riders should start off on the basis of learning the most effective way that works in all situations, and make that the habit that comes naturally. What you're saying effectively is "persist in bad habits because they are already there and you can do them without thinking".


No I'm saying when its crunch time, do the one you can do without thinking, then maybe it won't end up being crunch time, so to speak!

I've said try em all and stick with the one you think is best, if countersteering is universally awesome, then surely everyone will choose that, so whats the problem?



What if both are not always capable of being applied simutlaneously? What if doing one is distracting you from carrying out the most effective action to teh best of your ability?


what if aliens throw you under a caravan?



OK just to get this clear: The act of getting the bar to turn can only be done by actually turning the bar. You may believe that standing a peg causes the bar to turn, but I am saying that does not. It is you either:
- tensing up your shoulder movement, or
- dropping your shoulder into a corner, or
- subconscious movement from shifting your bum or
- whatever else

But the fact is that the turning is coming from the direct application of force on the bar. Nothing else.

I agree.

[R-Soul]

haha, this is kb, and that was no bitchfight, only vague (at best) insults were even traded :P

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push. So same hand as side I am thinking of, must be brain sides or something!

Maybe because when you are trying to avoid something, you are not worried about getting body into position for acorner, just in getting the lean over. Whereas when you think of a line your body autmatically jups into cornering mode? You probably push in a corner, right?

[R-Soul]

Now, if we can just get a bit about waving in here as well we should have the ultimate contentious thread.

Why, who waved at me?

[bogan]

Maybe because when you are trying to avoid something, you are not worried about getting body into position for acorner, just in getting the lean over. Whereas when you think of a line your body autmatically jups into cornering mode? You probably push in a corner, right?

why get your body into position? I thought you said a wee push on the bar was all it took :Pokey:

yeh, but thats cornering technique, I always try and leave the outside arm dangling so there for better control and feedback.

[R-Soul]

Woo Hoo - Cage fight! As Bogan said maybe next time I will be more careful choosing my thread title. My bad for expecting anyone to read the body of text.

I think it is interesting to sit at home and reseach and think about things. However, once I sling my leg over the seat I let my body do what it does. I know that if I attempt to ride the bike using the conscious mind things will go very badly

A nice gentleman (Cheers Longwheelie) has explained and demonstrated to me how the weighting of the pegs can influence the bike in a subtle way. The trick is (and this is what I was missing) is to get your bum slightly off the seat to ensure your mass acts through the footpedal not your ass crack.


Thats why its called "weighting the peg".


Also- the footpeg weighting thing:

Footpeg weighting does NOT steer the bike.

What it does is make the bike feel (at least subjectively) more settled in a corner. If you look at a bike from the front, the pivot point is teh contact patch with the ground. The further away the rider is firmly connected to the bike from the pivot point - such as at the saddle- the more unbalanced the rider will be on the bike.

This is because small movements of the rider will create reation forces on the bike at a longer distance from the pivot point (and hence use a longer lever arm to move the bike about its pivot point). If the biker is firmly connected to the bike at a lower place -such as the footpegs-, then movements by the rider are transferred as reaction forces to the bike via the footpegs (thereby usinga shorter lever arm), and unsettling the bike less.

My post below describes why weighting the pegs helps (as I understand it anyway).

[MSTRS]

However it did stimulate me to actively practice my countersteering (technique) on the way home, especially with man-hole covers, one thing I find is if I look at the obstacle I am avoiding I bar-pull instead of push, where-as if I think about the line instead, I will bar push.

Now, that is interesting. However, all it is really saying is that you should look where you're going cos you'll go where you're looking!!

[bogan]

Now, that is interesting. However, all it is really saying is that you should look where you're going cos you'll go where you're looking!!

Well I still countersteered in the correct direction, just it was a pull steer instead of a push

[MSTRS]

But did you weight your outside peg and hang your arse off, while simultaneously trail-braking and accelerating?

[davebullet]

Why, who waved at me?

Lateral waving will unconsciously create countersteer. At the right resonant frequency a decent KB wave can induce a tank slapper.

Based on the above, I can confirm countersteering and waving are symbiotically linked. Therefore, if you need to turn a bike, you have to commence waving.

[sinned]

There are correct techniques and ones that are ineffective or plain wrong. Why not practice using correct techniques until they become the only way you do the action and then are the way you behave or respond in an emergency?

There is a lot about riding a motorcycle which is not natural and that is why inexperienced and untrained riders will for example:1)too hot into a corner, brake, stand the bike up and run wide off the road;2) close the throttle in a bend when the rear spins up resulting in a high side; 3)looks at that object on the road and runs into it; 4) in emergency braking when the rear slides 'naturally steers' the bike into a low side. To respond correctly in these situations requires practicing correct techniques until those become so ingrained they become the only way you respond.


The point I was making is in that last second, you don't want to be thinking about all the physics etc, you want to just do it, if weighting the pegs (or any other method) does the bar push subconsiously, what is the difference? And I didn't mean do what makes you feel confortable, but the one that you are most comfortable using, ie what comes naturally.
What comes most comfortably could well be the end of you.


As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required... Absolutely


As are many others mate
Fact is leaning causes you to put pressure on the 'inside' bar eg the one on the side your turning toward, and that means your pushing that bar out...eg countersteering
Had this discsuiion with a mate, and when he actively counterseered he realised how much more positive control and reaction time he gained
Now he just needs to make that technique a habit to be a better and safer rider.


Keep in mind that other relative newbies might be reading this and trying to make sense of counter steering from it. I agree that you should use what comes naturally, since you will probably revert to it in panic situations. But then why not ingrain the most direct method to be the one that comes naturally? By using it all the time?
I only agree if what comes naturally is to apply correct technique and that means training and practice until doing it correctly comes naturally.




Well we are comparing techniques, while your ABS example is a comparison of hardware. We are talking about learning and unlearning and relearning thee most effective technique for riding a bike, not which system is teh most effective. for both suystems, the optimum technique is progressively grabbing a fistful of brake, and modulating it until it is just at that point before the tyre breaks traction. Its just on an ABS bike, if you DO break traction, the system kicks in and modulates the brakes automatically. If you are not, you have to release the brake and reapply again. Your good technique on an non-ABS system would still be good technique on an ABS system. The ABS system just helps you if you dont have good technique.
Interesting situation with ABS in cars. The vibration in the pedal has caused some drivers to release the brake - resulting in an avoidable crash. The rule for ABS is to hammer the brake and keep it down disregarding the pedal vibration. The same rule probably applies to motorcycles but no doubt some kb expert will correct me?


Countersteering is the ONLY way you are going to start cornering. And indeed, straightening up afterwards.
How you achieve it is somewhat up to the individual, but at the end of the day, there is no more effective way than the push/pull on the bars. All other inputs may be of assistance, but in and of themselves, are not very effective.
MSTRS I have read your statements on this topics many times on kb. Nothing beats the power of repetition, - but on kb I am not so sure. Keep up the posts - they add value.


Now, that is interesting. However, all it is really saying is that you should look where you're going cos you'll go where you're looking!!
Not looking at what you want to avoid hitting is another skill to develop until it becomes 'second nature'.


Well I still countersteered in the correct direction, just it was a pull steer instead of a push
A pull instead of push is the technique used by some cruiser riders with high, wide and rearward bars. It also helps them look cool. A push is more logical given the low position of the bar and rider on a sports bike.

[bogan]

Lateral waving will unconsciously create countersteer. At the right resonant frequency a decent KB wave can induce a tank slapper.

wait, what? I though the kb wave was a tank slapper, fuck, no wonder I never got one back.

[onearmedbandit]

No the handlebars are the only (effective) method of initiating countersteer.
See the No BS bike link above.

You contradict yourself by first telling me I'm wrong, then adding effective into the mix. So what is it? A flat out 'no' or one with conditions?

[onearmedbandit]

OK just to get this clear: The act of getting the bar to turn can only be done by actually turning the bar. You may believe that standingn a peg causes the bar to turn, but I am saying that does not. It is you either:
- tensing up your shoulder movement, or
- dropping your shoulder into a corner, or
- subconscious movement from shifting your bum or
- whatever else

But the fact is that the turning is coming from the direct application of force on the bar. Nothing else.

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

[bogan]

There are correct techniques and ones that are ineffective or plain wrong. Why not practice using correct techniques until they become the only way you do the action and then are the way you behave or respond in an emergency?

countersteering is one of the things I often forget to practice, as it results in a quick change of direction, by riding to the conditions such a change is rarely necessary, what would you recommend as the best way to practice it, swerve round manholes etc on daily riding, find a deserted road to practice on. I'm not keen to do track days on my bike atm btw.



A pull instead of push is the technique used by some cruiser riders with high, wide and rearward bars. It also helps them look cool. A push is more logical given the low position of the bar and rider on a sports bike.

that makes sense, as the bars are about 80mm above the top triple, so somewhere between cruiser and sports. Going to be putting dirtbike bars on it this winter so may end up higher and flatter.

[GOONR]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

Must have been black magic.

[sinfull]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?
Thought control !!! His subconcious eye looked where he wanted to go and the bars moved ! Had to be, cause moving the bars is the only way to get them to move (even if it be subconciously) !

[onearmedbandit]

I was thinking maybe it had something to do with the Twilight Zone, but all joking aside, I'd honestly like to know how he did this. I've seen the no bs bike in action and read all about it, but I witnessed this first hand.

[schrodingers cat]

There are correct techniques and ones that are ineffective or plain wrong. Why not practice using correct techniques until they become the only way you do the action and then are the way you behave or respond in an emergency?

There is a lot about riding a motorcycle which is not natural and that is why inexperienced and untrained riders will for example:1)too hot into a corner, brake, stand the bike up and run wide off the road;2) close the throttle in a bend when the rear spins up resulting in a high side; 3)looks at that object on the road and runs into it; 4) in emergency braking when the rear slides 'naturally steers' the bike into a low side. To respond correctly in these situations requires practicing correct techniques until those become so ingrained they become the only way you respond.

Absolutely agree. Hence tha asking in the first place. If instructed properly I have ability to 'retrain' my head fairly quicky and apply new technique. Many thanks to those who have posted a sensible reasoned, on-topic response

[bogan]

I was thinking maybe it had something to do with the Twilight Zone, but all joking aside, I'd honestly like to know how he did this. I've seen the no bs bike in action and read all about it, but I witnessed this first hand.

think its the trail of the forks, onces the bike is leaned over (by weighting a peg or weight transfer) there is a small force acting outwards (form corner center) from the bottom of the tyre. Same as if you put a shopping trolley on two wheels, the front will turn in.

[rustic101]

This is a good description, including the maths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

Loved it and it answered my question about how I steer when riding with no hands:

No hands

While countersteering is usually initiated by applying torque directly to the handlebars, on lighter vehicles such as bicycles, it can also be accomplished by shifting the rider’s weight. If the rider leans to the right relative to the bike, the bike will lean to the left to conserve angular momentum, and the combined center of mass will remain in the same vertical plane. This leftward lean of the bike, called counter lean by some authors,[22] will cause it to steer to the left and initiate a right-hand turn as if the rider had countersteered to the left by applying a torque directly to the handlebars.[25] Note that this technique may be complicated by additional factors such as headset friction and stiff control cables.

Mind you this has raised more question than answer - I need to dive into google again....

[onearmedbandit]

think its the trail of the forks, onces the bike is leaned over (by weighting a peg or weight transfer) there is a small force acting outwards (form corner center) from the bottom of the tyre. Same as if you put a shopping trolley on two wheels, the front will turn in.

So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...?

[bogan]

yeh, weighting the peg will push the rider to the other side, and reaction opposite dictates the bike goes the other way.

[CookMySock]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?As was mentioned earlier, tipping the bike to the left will rotate the bars to the right.. in effect initiating a left turn. Debate on about whether the actual bar turn initiated the corner or the weight shift!

In the end it does not matter! Again, as was mentioned earlier - weight shifting (regardless of the order of effects and actions) is not nearly a direct enough input to swerve the bike, and as such must be of secondary use to the rider.

So weight-shifting cannot be used as a primary input when a large rate of change is required. Weight-shifting is only of any use when having to conserve the angle of lean for performance or safety reasons, or for entertainment.

Weight-shifting is also useful in closed-in spaces at low speed, where there is no room around the bike to use the bars.

Steve

[sinfull]

So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...? How DO you do that ?

Never been able to suss how to underline something in a quote !


As was mentioned earlier, tipping the bike to the left will rotate the bars to the right.. in effect initiating a left turn. Debate on about whether the actual bar turn initiated the corner or the weight shift!

In the end it does not matter! Again, as was mentioned earlier - weight shifting (regardless of the order of effects and actions) is not nearly a direct enough input to swerve the bike, and as such must be of secondary use to the rider.

So weight-shifting cannot be used as a primary input when a large rate of change is required. Weight-shifting is only of any use when having to conserve the angle of lean for performance or safety reasons, or for entertainment.

Weight-shifting is also useful in closed-in spaces at low speed, where there is no room around the bike to use the bars.

Steve"read what Steve says. He's right.":confused:

[onearmedbandit]

As was mentioned earlier, tipping the bike to the left will rotate the bars to the right.. in effect initiating a left turn. Debate on about whether the actual bar turn initiated the corner or the weight shift!




Steve

I would've thought you would have picked up on that I knew that, after all I did quote a post of yours where that's pretty much what I said. Unfortunately I don't think you've read the other posts where people have sworn that this is not possible.

[onearmedbandit]

How DO you do that ?

Never been able to suss how to underline something in a quote !



Replace the ( with [ in this example. (u)text you want to underline(/u).

[sinfull]

Replace the ( with [ in this example. text you want to underline Ahaaaaa......

[davebullet]

So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...?

Yes - but not, by itself, turn.

[Pro Rider]

If you get a chance to come out for a days training at the racetrack at one of the Pro Rider days ( dates for Ruapuna in the spring will be up soon) then you will have a chance to work on all of those skills, we cover countersteering, weighting pegs, body positioning as part of the Steering Skills and all in the safety of the track with the same 14 corners. http://www.prorider.co.nz

[schrodingers cat]

If you get a chance to come out for a days training at the racetrack at one of the Pro Rider days ( dates for Ruapuna in the spring will be up soon) then you will have a chance to work on all of those skills, we cover countersteering, weighting pegs, body positioning as part of the Steering Skills and all in the safety of the track with the same 14 corners. http://www.prorider.co.nz

Goodo - sent you an e-mail earlier this week enquiring about dates...

[cowpoos]

Read a couple of really interesting articles recently.


http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0110_art/index.html

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

To ride a motorcycle around a corner on a road/track at any speed above the point of falling over, you have to counter steer.

Sorry to those that suggest otherwise....they are wrong.

[pritch]

As long as we know that the PRIMARY reason for crisp, immediate, controlled turning comes from that push (or pull) on the bars and have practised it to the point where thinking about it is not required...

Which is true. I think Urano was the first in this thread though to comment on the speed of the turn. ToTW II covers this too.
The only way to turn quickly is to countersteer. Body lean, weighting the pegs, scratching your nuts, or whatever else is all secondary.

While weighting the inside peg is enough to initiate a lazy turn, most of the time it's better to weight the outside peg during the turn, weighting the inside peg can make it easier for the back wheel to spin up. Good if you want to do that, but a bit extreme for riding on the road?

[MSTRS]

MSTRS I have read your statements on this topics many times on kb. Nothing beats the power of repetition, - but on kb I am not so sure. Keep up the posts - they add value.


Just for the record, I'd like it noted that I am not taking lessons from Katman...

[Hitcher]

Sorry to those that suggest otherwise....they are wrong.

Try convincing them otherwise.

[Spearfish]

Its old but its good with a bit of counter steering?, body weight shifting, peg loading, and great opportunities to develop a throughly original KB wave with both hands a spare foot.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/wi8RDDwRFlk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/wi8RDDwRFlk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[cowpoos]

Try convincing them otherwise.

No one has argued with me yet.

[R-Soul]

You contradict yourself by first telling me I'm wrong, then adding effective into the mix. So what is it? A flat out 'no' or one with conditions?

I explained it below. Hanging your body weight off does make the bike turn eventually. But it gives you about 5% of the steering available by counter steering. Its great if you only ever have to turn corners with 300 m radius (and makes life difficult if you want to change line in that corner).

But counter steering provides the ability to flick bikes from sides to side and turn 90 degree corners. Weight shifting does not. It also allows fro line changing in corners (by adjusting the bars again).

That is what I mean by weight shifting not giving you effective steering. Without counter steering, you have effectively NO steering.

[bogan]

I explained it below. Hanging your body weight off does make the bike turn eventually. But it gives you about 5% of the steering available by counter steering. Its great if you only ever have to turn corners with 300 m radius (and makes life difficult if you want to change line in that corner).

wud be interesting to have a go on the no-bs bike, surely if you can get it to turn slightly, getting off the throttle will get it to turn way more? I'm not advising anyone to actually corner like this btw, unless it works realllllyyyy good :bleh:

[MSTRS]

... body weight shifting...

The proponents of body-steering will be insufferable when they watch the 5.45 - 6.00 minute section.
They, of course, will conveniently forget the bike is rolling at about 20kph...

[Spearfish]

The proponents of body-steering will be insufferable when they watch the 5.45 - 6.00 minute section.
They, of course, will conveniently forget the bike is rolling at about 20kph...

Yep a couple of puffs on some smouldering embers.

[bogan]

The proponents of body-steering will be insufferable when they watch the 5.45 - 6.00 minute section.
They, of course, will conveniently forget the bike is rolling at about 20kph...

one wonders if lighter wheels would increase the speed at which body steering is still doable, scooters have light wheel who wants to try body steering one at 50kmhr? :p

Furthermore, if the rotational inertia was removed completely from the front wheel would body steering become effective at any speed?

[MSTRS]

You mean if a counterforce was applied to the front wheel...like a reverse rotating one for instance?
All bets are off as to which sort of steering would be effective. Because I believe the bike would be lying on its side...

[bogan]

You mean if a counterforce was applied to the front wheel...like a reverse rotating one for instance?
All bets are off as to which sort of steering would be effective. Because I believe the bike would be lying on its side...

yeh, spin the discs back the other way real fast or summat (better braking too perhaps?) Yeh wud be a tad different to ride, and considering they haven't even got HCS bikes mainstream (which have obvious benifits) I don't see it happening. I wud assume a similar effect to contersteering would occur though with the change in wheel track initiating the lean, would wanna be well light on the bars at high speed though, a decent sized bumble bee to the knuckles could probably take you out :shit:

[R-Soul]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

What speed was he doing?

Counter steering gives you effective steering above about 20kph. He might have been able to use body weight effectively below this - I have not tried this (I will do so and check). At low speeds, the better technique is to turn the front wheel in the direction you want to turn, and lean your body weight outward for a smaller turning circle. This is completely opposite to good technique using counter steering at higher speeds.

And what sort of turning circle was he getting? He certainly could not have been making 90 degree turns in a short time, or taking chicanes...

[R-Soul]

one wonders if lighter wheels would increase the speed at which body steering is still doable, scooters have light wheel who wants to try body steering one at 50kmhr? :p

Furthermore, if the rotational inertia was removed completely from the front wheel would body steering become effective at any speed?


No the geometry is still bad. When the bike is iupright and balanced, the moment caused by a body hanging off it is relatively minor. even at standstill.
As opposed to when the bike is leaned over already.

[MSTRS]

Point of order here...
Counter steering is the force that acts upon a rotating tyre, causing it to initiate a turn. The term 'counter' comes from the fact that the tyre must turn slightly in one direction, in order to initiate the turn in the opposite directiion.
What ever you do to effect this is known as counter steering, be it peg weighting, body shift or bar input.
Can we not refer to each as they are, not what they cause?

[bogan]

No the geometry is still bad. When the bike is iupright and balanced, the moment caused by a body hanging off it is relatively minor. even at standstill.
As opposed to when the bike is leaned over already.

yeh but if even a small moment makes it turn in whats the difference?


Point of order here...
Counter steering is the force that acts upon a rotating tyre, causing it to initiate a turn. The term 'counter' comes from the fact that the tyre must turn slightly in one direction, in order to initiate the turn in the opposite directiion.
What ever you do to effect this is known as counter steering, be it peg weighting, body shift or bar input.
Can we not refer to each as they are, not what they cause?

yeh thats what i was saying a few pages back, counter steering (physics) is different from counter steering (technique) where you consciously decide to push on a bar to start the turn, thats my take on it anyway.

[R-Soul]

Ahaaaaa......

Its easier to highlight the text you want to do stuff to, and then press "ctrl" and (B for bold or U for underline or I for italics)

does anybody know how to get a video into a posting? and how to upload a video as an avatar?

[R-Soul]

Point of order here...
Counter steering is the force that acts upon a rotating tyre, causing it to initiate a turn. The term 'counter' comes from the fact that the tyre must turn slightly in one direction, in order to initiate the turn in the opposite directiion.
What ever you do to effect this is known as counter steering, be it peg weighting, body shift or bar input.
Can we not refer to each as they are, not what they cause?

But there is no other way of initiating counter steering EXCEPT by pushing/pulling on the bars (or pushing and pulling on the wheels/forks). Peg weighting does not do this. It causes a moment on the bike in total to make it lean/fall over (as opposed to moving the front wheel out to cause the lean).

[R-Soul]

yeh but if even a small moment makes it turn in whats the difference?

Slow turning


Yeh thats what i was saying a few pages back, counter steering (physics) is different from counter steering (technique) where you consciously decide to push on a bar to start the turn, thats my take on it anyway.

Peg weighting does not initiate counter steering. It initiates LEAN. Slowly.

It does not cause the front wheel to steer sideways to make the bike fall over quicker. It merely topples the bike over. Slowly.

[schrodingers cat]

Its easier to highlight the text you want to do stuff to, and then press "ctrl" and (B for bold or U for underline or I for italics)

does anybody know how to get a video into a posting? and how to upload a video as an avatar?

Any of the You Tube videos give you an 'In-bed code' which you cut and paste into your reply.
You could load an animated GIF as an avatar but I don't think you can load a video file

[R-Soul]

Any of the You Tube videos give you an 'In-bed code' which you cut and paste into your reply.
You could load an animated GIF as an avatar but I don't think you can load a video file
Is that what the other guys have (the ones with moving avatars?) animated GIF's?

How do you load them?

I have also seen emails with moving pics on them - I presume also animated GIFs too, and always wondered how to put them in there..

[MSTRS]

But there is no other way of initiating counter steering EXCEPT by pushing/pulling on the bars (or pushing and pulling on the wheels/forks). Peg weighting does not do this. It causes a moment on the bike in total to make it lean/fall over (as opposed to moving the front wheel out to cause the lean).

Sorry, but you are wrong.
The bike does begin to lean to the side you weight, BUT in doing so, the steering head reacts by turning outwards, which 'flops' the front tyre onto the side you have leaned towards, which in turn pulls the steering head etc back to the 'correct' side thereby the bike then turns in tha direction. It is EXACTLY the same as bar input. Just not as precise.

[MSTRS]

Is that what the other guys have (the ones with moving avatars?) animated GIF's?

How do you load them?

I have also seen emails with moving pics on them - I presume also animated GIFs too, and always wondered how to put them in there..

Find an animation (Gif) you like, download it onto your hard drive, go to your settings page with the avatar field and 'insert' the file there. There is a size and Kb limit tho.

[schrodingers cat]

Is that what the other guys have (the ones with moving avatars?) animated GIF's?

How do you load them?

I have also seen emails with moving pics on them - I presume also animated GIFs too, and always wondered how to put them in there..

Google for them (Google image search). So long as it has the *.GIF extension treat it like any other file. You're quite used to moving *.JPG files, this is no different. PS - Not ALL GIF's are animated

I see this site supports doc gif jpeg jpg kmz pdf png pps psd swf torrent xls

To see what the others are using as their moving avatar, right click on one and select 'save as'

http://www.freefever.com/animatedgifs/motorcycles3.html

[Spearfish]

Hasn't the amount of rake got something to do with how quickly it leans or how far it goes for a given amount of counter steering? (and how fast( or how much force) the steering geometry returns to zero or straight)

The centre of gravity dictating to how much it needs to lean to resist tipping over itself with the centrifugal force generated? (high side).
Then its up tyre adhesion to avoid a lowside?
(not asked very well as usual)
Under a certain speed rider weight and strength can resist the very low centrifugal force, eg crawling trough a riverbed standing on the pegs (very upright).
Is a bike with a small amount of rake more or less prone to tank-slapping?

[onearmedbandit]

I explained it below. Hanging your body weight off does make the bike turn eventually. But it gives you about 5% of the steering available by counter steering. Its great if you only ever have to turn corners with 300 m radius (and makes life difficult if you want to change line in that corner).

But counter steering provides the ability to flick bikes from sides to side and turn 90 degree corners. Weight shifting does not. It also allows fro line changing in corners (by adjusting the bars again).

That is what I mean by weight shifting not giving you effective steering. Without counter steering, you have effectively NO steering.

While I'll disagree with the 300m radius number, as I know it can be done tighter, I wholly agree that the only effective method of getting a bike to turn is countersteer through the bars.

[bogan]

Slow turning



Peg weighting does not initiate counter steering. It initiates LEAN. Slowly.

It does not cause the front wheel to steer sideways to make the bike fall over quicker. It merely topples the bike over. Slowly.

yeh but its all relative, my point was with less rotational inertia a smaller moment is needed, so leaning, which does provide smaller moments would be enough.


Hasn't the amount of rake got something to do with how quickly it leans or how far it goes for a given amount of counter steering? (and how fast( or how much force) the steering geometry returns to zero or straight)

The centre of gravity dictating to how much it needs to lean to resist tipping over itself with the centrifugal force generated? (high side).
Then its up tyre adhesion to avoid a lowside?
(not asked very well as usual)
Under a certain speed rider weight and strength can resist the very low centrifugal force, eg crawling trough a riverbed standing on the pegs (very upright).
Is a bike with a small amount of rake more or less prone to tank-slapping?

yeh rake would affect the counter-steering force, the steeper the rake, the more torque is generated to lean the bike for a given bar push torque.
Think the trail would be more important in those situation you listed, but rake contributes also.

[Urano]

Hitcher was just taking the urine old son.
Your English is a hell of alot better than my Italian ...which is nil,but thanks for a bloody good laugh.
Footfingers is priceless:niceone:


http://www.er6italia.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/a_26.gif
then teach me something and tell me how to explain it....!!!!!!!
:D :D :D





Mind you this has raised more question than answer - I need to dive into google again....

i think that another interesting point of the question is that countersteering DOES NOT turn the bike.
it LEAN the bike.
which is way different.
if you apply the gyro rule to the front wheel, pushing the handle bar e.g. on the left end weight, creates a force through the fork.
imagine a big arrow going forward from the top of the left fork tube, and a big arrow going backward from the top of the right one.
those arrows going down through the fork, act on the hub, with an effect of a force pushing the rear side of the front wheel to the left, and pushing the front side of the front wheel to the right (imagine again the arrows)
we know that a gyro reacts to a force applied as it was applied "90° after, in the sense of rotation", so the arrow that pushed left the rear side of the wheel is "turned" 90° after, being on the top, and the other one is turned again 90° after, coming on the lowest point of the wheel.
so you have a big arrow pushing the wheel on the left from the top, and another one pushing on the right from the base.
that's it.
it simply LEAN the bike, it doesn't turn it.
what turns is the rear wheel, with the same principle of a spinning top, that turns when it is no more on a perfect vertical... :niceone:



So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...?

not necessarily.
it depends on the speed and the virtual mass of the "gyro rigidity".
if it's enough you could come to an end where the weight displacement is so small in comparison the the gyro that the effect is smaller than the earth radius, so, actually, it would not turn... ;) ;)

[R-Soul]

Sorry, but you are wrong.
The bike does begin to lean to the side you weight, BUT in doing so, the steering head reacts by turning outwards, which 'flops' the front tyre onto the side you have leaned towards, which in turn pulls the steering head etc back to the 'correct' side thereby the bike then turns in tha direction. It is EXACTLY the same as bar input. Just not as precise.


Explain to me how weighting the peg can have any effect on the headstock angle? If you stand on your bike at rest, balanced, and you then weight a peg, I assume that the headstock does not change its angle. Unless its because you have jumped on the peg, and caused a bit of suspension give. The same principles apply when the bike is moving (plus a bit of gyrosopic effect from the wheels).

At a constant speed, the bike can be regarded as being at rest, and in equilibrium. But gently weighting the peg doesn't affect the headstock angle - it merely causes the bike to fall over to that side - and that is because (looking from the front) I believe that you are creating a cantilever effect by hanging your weight out.

Having said that, when you move your weight out, the weight of the bike should move the other way, to counteract your weight shift and keep the system in equilibrium, and the centre of mass of both (bike and rider) should stay in the same place.... so I am actually at a loss to explain how the bike turns under weighti shifting at all? Unles sits because of miniscule differences in friction? Anybody?

EDIT: I have thought about it again and I thnk you are right. Just like when you push//pull on handlebars, it causes a force to cuase lean to the wheel by gyroscopic precession. If you lean your body weight to one side, and teh bike to teh other, you are moving teh wheel, and it wil cause the wheel to move in a direction at 90 degrees to the rotation. The small rotation direction is the lean direction. So the reaction force could well be in the turn plane.

In fact by my own reasoning above, the weight shoft does nothing to cause the bike to fall over, since the centre of Mass (COM) of both bike and rider stays the same.

This leads me to believe that all (or most) turning from weight shifting (as little as there is) is also caused by gyroscopic precession acting on the front wheel to cause the wheel to turn in a direction counter to the direction the bike moves (i.e. "counter steering" - defined by the physics and not the technique).

Never let it be said that I dont admit when I am wrong.

[bogan]

Explain to me how weighting the peg can have any effect on the headstock angle? If you stand on your bike at rest, balanced, and you then weight a peg, I assume that the headstock does not change its angle. Unless its because you have jumped on the peg, and caused a bit of suspension give. The same principles apply when the bike is moving (plus a bit of gyrosopic effect from the wheels).

At a constant speed, the bike can be regarded as being at rest, and in equilibrium. But gently weighting the peg doesn't affect the headstock angle - it merely causes the bike to fall over to that side - and that is because (looking from the front) I believe that you are creating a cantilever effect by hanging your weight out.

Having said that, when you move your weight out, the weight of the bike should move the other way, to counteract your weight shift and keep the system in equilibrium, and the centre of mass of both (bike and rider) should stay in the same place.... so I am actually at a loss to explain how the bike turns under weighti shifting at all? Unles sits because of miniscule differences in friction? Anybody?

two ways, gyroscopic precesion, and trail (so yeh, you assumed wrong).Yip weight out one side casues bike to steer to other side, tipping CM into the corner.

[MSTRS]

The head stock is a hinge.
If you push/pull the bars, you are operating that hinge and the bike follows in keeping with the input.
If you apply the input to the bike by leaning off/weighting a peg, you are still making that hinge to come into play.
The result is the same, albeit a bit less precise than bar-instigated effect.

[R-Soul]

http://www.er6italia.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/a_26.gif



Case in point- when I try and save or email this picture, it only saves a still frame, and not the moving one. How do you cut and paste this as an animation?

[R-Soul]

two ways, gyroscopic precesion, and trail (so yeh, you assumed wrong).Yip weight out one side casues bike to steer to other side, tipping CM into the corner.

Yeah I figured that out - see my edit. Apologies.

So you can either have a miniscule amount of turn on the front wheel caused by an incidental side effect of peg weighting, or you can have a direct, potent, strong force directly on the bars.

I know which one I want....

[R-Soul]

PS It also occurred to me that while countersteering initiates lean, the positioning of your body to the inside will also encourage the faster dropping into that lean (esp. as the lean angle gets lower). This is because at a particular lean angle (initiated by the counter steering) your body weight placed more inwardly will create a larger moment around the contact patch to rotate the bike over inwardly. So for faster turning, more body weight to the inside is required.

This makes sense subjectively to me, as the technique of counter steering always feels more comfortable and less effort when I have moved my weight inwards (although I know its not the weight shitfing that is causing me to turn).

[MSTRS]

Yeah I figured that out - see my edit. Apologies.

So you can either have a miniscule amount of turn on the front wheel caused by an incidental side effect of peg weighting, or you can have a direct, potent, strong force directly on the bars.

I know which one I want....

Exactly.
If one was to fix the steering head so it couldn't move, the bike would be impossible to ride. It would be very unlikely to even track in a straight line. It would simply fall over.

[bogan]

Yeah I figured that out - see my edit. Apologies.

So you can either have a miniscule amount of turn on the front wheel caused by an incidental side effect of peg weighting, or you can have a direct, potent, strong force directly on the bars.

I know which one I want....

yeh that pretty much sums it up, though I still reckon counter-steering (technique) can be performed fairly well without thinking bout the push etc, and sometime in conjunction with other techniques (subconsiously) such as body steering.


PS It also occurred to me that while countersteering initiates lean, the positioning of your body to the inside will also encourage the faster dropping into that lean (esp. as the lean angle gets lower). This is because at a particular lean angle (initiated by the counter steering) your body weight placed more inwardly will create a larger moment around the contact patch to rotate the bike over inwardly. So for faster turning, more body weight to the inside is required.

This makes sense subjectively to me, as the technique of counter steering always feels more comfortable and less effort when I have moved my weight inwards (although I know its not the weight shitfing that is causing me to turn).

umm, as you lean in more the bike leans out more, so no net gain, and if body leaning adds a miniscule amount to turn in, how will that differ now that you are halfway through the corner?

[MSTRS]

PS It also occurred to me that while countersteering initiates lean, the positioning of your body to the inside will also encourage the faster dropping into that lean (esp. as the lean angle gets lower). This is because at a particular lean angle (initiated by the counter steering) your body weight placed more inwardly will create a larger moment around the contact patch to rotate the bike over inwardly. So for faster turning, more body weight to the inside is required.

This makes sense subjectively to me, as the technique of counter steering always feels more comfortable and less effort when I have moved my weight inwards (although I know its not the weight shitfing that is causing me to turn).

Nope. For a given turn radius at a given speed, a certain amount of lean is required. If you hang off (on the inside), your body is assuming a greater portion of the required lean, meaning the bike doesn't need to lean as much.

[schrodingers cat]

208173

First you have to save it as an file on your pc them upload it and attach it

[CHOPPA]

Forget about all that mumbo jumbo and do what works and feels right. Watch the riders on TV that can actually ride fast and copy what they do

[bogan]

Forget about all that mumbo jumbo and do what works and feels right. Watch the riders on TV that can actually ride fast and copy what they do

or just wait till the S1000RRRR and it'll prolly do it all for you :D

fuck i'd love to get in on a design project like the s1000rr, probably prefer that to owning one actually

[R-Soul]

Nope. For a given turn radius at a given speed, a certain amount of lean is required. If you hang off (on the inside), your body is assuming a greater portion of the required lean, meaning the bike doesn't need to lean as much. I am talking about the speed of getting the required amount of lean as you are heading into the corner.

[bogan]

I am talking about the speed of getting the required amount of lean as you are heading into the corner.

the speed of lean in for a given force is only governed by angular inertia, so hunkering down on the tank would increase the speed, but not leaning out. Unless of course leaning out changes the force? but you have already stated it is minuscule.

[R-Soul]

yeh that pretty much sums it up, though I still reckon counter-steering (technique) can be performed fairly well without thinking bout the push etc, and sometime in conjunction with other techniques (subconsiously) such as body steering.



umm, as you lean in more the bike leans out more, so no net gain, and if body leaning adds a miniscule amount to turn in, how will that differ now that you are halfway through the corner?


Maybe by leaning in you create a longer lever arm, thereby creating more moment. Look at the opposite extremes to highlight the situation. By leaning outward, as the bike leans in, the combined COM is at a shorter lever arm about the contact patch so the responsiveness of the bike to drop into the lean is worse ONCE the initial lean has happened.

Weight DOES HAVE AN EFFECT - is what is ultimately making your bike fall over (as an inverted pendulum) and is what is balancing the cornering forces. Countersteering is mainly a technique to get the weight acting in the right directions quickly. Instead of waiting fo rth pendulum to fall over, it is setting it at an angle initially. Buit as soon as the bike has any decent lean on it, the weight will start to have an increased moment to counter or overcome moment created by cornering forces to create angular accelration around the contact patches.

EDITED TO GET THOUGHT RIGHT
Think about it this way. Weight only acts directly downwardly. In order for the downward force of your weight to create a moment about the contact patch, the bike must be, leaned over. The more lean, the more moment created by your weight. But when the bike is upright the weight almost acts directly thourgh the contact patch, and has no lever arm so very little angular accelreation happens.

[R-Soul]

the speed of lean in for a given force is only governed by angular inertia, so hunkering down on the tank would increase the speed, but not leaning out. Unless of course leaning out changes the force? but you have already stated it is minuscule.


Please understand (and everybody reading this) that this is new ground for me too. I regard this discussion as as debate more than fact... I am just trying to figure it out for myself.

[bogan]

Maybe by leaning in you create a longer lever arm, thereby creating more moment. Look at the opposite extremes to highlight the situation. By leaning outward, as the bike leans in, the combined COM is at a shorter lever arm about the contact patch so the responsiveness of the bike to drop into the lean is worse ONCE the initial lean has happened.

Weight DOES HAVE AN EFFECT - is what is ultimately making your bike fall over (as an inverted pendulum) and is what is balancing the cornering forces. Countersteering is mainly a technique to get the weight acting in the right directions quickly. Instead of waiting fo rth pendulum to fall over, it is setting it at an angle initially. Buit as soon as the bike has any decent lean on it, the weight will start to have an increased moment to counter or overcome moment created by cornering forces to create angular accelration around the contact patches.

EDITED TO GET THOUGHT RIGHT
Think about it this way. Weight only acts directly downwardly. In order for the downward force of your weight to create a moment about the contact patch, the bike must be, leaned over. The more lean, the more moment created by your weight. But when the bike is upright the weight almost acts directly thourgh the contact patch, and has no lever arm so very little angular accelreation happens.

firstly weight is a bit of an ambiguous term in physics, most say gravity, or mass, depending on what is meant. Leaning in or out creates exactly the same moment, conservation of angular momentum.


Please understand (and everybody reading this) that this is new ground for me too. I regard this discussion as as debate more than fact... I am just trying to figure it out for myself.

fair enuf, I find it very interesting to work out all the subtle thingamyjgs happening while I'm riding, though most are too hard to think about while actually riding to be of any use.

[R-Soul]

firstly weight is a bit of an ambiguous term in physics, most say gravity, or mass, depending on what is meant. Leaning in or out creates exactly the same moment, conservation of angular momentum.


Weight is mass accelreated by gravity G, in Newtons (as a force). W= m X G. Nothing ambiguous about it.

Yeah I guess you get the same moment. So then (subjectively) why does it feel a lot more controlled when you lean into a corner (even at low lean angles when suspension differences should be minor)?

[bogan]

Weight is mass accelreated by gravity G, in Newtons (as a force). W= m X G. Nothing ambiguous about it.

yeh, but many say weight when they mean mass, I just don't see weight much in physics texts, does it even have a symbol?



Yeah I guess you get the same moment. So then (subjectively) why does it feel a lot more controlled when you lean into a corner (even at low lean angles when suspension differences should be minor)?

fear barrier type stuff I think, cornering one style so much that different style seems wrong.

[MSTRS]

I don't know all the technical terms. But I have a fair grasp of cause and effect.
What I can say is if you get something wrong enough, you WILL have a moment...

[R-Soul]

yeh, but many say weight when they mean mass, I just don't see weight much in physics texts, does it even have a symbol?



fear barrier type stuff I think, cornering one style so much that different style seems wrong.

Normally in physics texts it more strictly regarded as a force F. its ony when you have a mass on Earth accelerated by our gravity acceleration constant G then its regarded as being 'weight'. That is what weight actually means. Although the term is confused by incorrect usage of it (eg "I weigh x kilograms" - kilograms actually being a mass unit, not a force unit). Its also further confused by the aditional imperial terminologies used.

But the unit of weight is measured in is Newtons, same as force.


You might be right about the fear barrier - I have been wracking my brain, and the COM of both bike and rider should stay the same. Ah well, at least that means that I have ingrained good techniwue, so that when I do it wrong, it feels bad, right?

[Crisis management]

Sorry, but you are wrong.
The bike does begin to lean to the side you weight, BUT in doing so, the steering head reacts by turning outwards, which 'flops' the front tyre onto the side you have leaned towards, which in turn pulls the steering head etc back to the 'correct' side thereby the bike then turns in tha direction. It is EXACTLY the same as bar input. Just not as precise.

No your wrong.....apologies for wandering into this physics discussion but there seems (I may have misunderstood this) to be an understanding that the bike leans into the side you weight a peg on, this does not happen.

Assume you are travelling in a straight line, put weight on the right hand peg and the bike will lean to the left, the bike & rider act as a unit to maintain balance, when the rider moves weight to one side the bike leans the opposite way to maintain balance. Try this out by standing on the pegs, hands off bars at 50km/hr in a straight line and steer with the pegs.

The reason this is important is that peg weighting and effective countersteering are closely linked, to paraphrase Mr Code:
To initiate a left hand turn, weight the right hand peg at the same time as you push the left hand bar forward, not only do the two actions initiate a sharp lean to the left of the "body" of the bike but the physical action of pushing down (weighting the peg) of the right leg and pushing forward with the left arm are physiologically linked, they are sympathetic movements of the body. Try reaching up high with the left arm and you will find you have extended the right leg at the same time.

This is (IMHO) the beauty of motorcycling, the close link between the machine and the human body, it's a dance not a science experiment.

Before you refute all my claims, bugger off outside and try it out, get in harmony with the machine. :sunny:

[MSTRS]

Hmmmm...might have to try that.
Right or wrong about which side goes which way, peg weighting still initiates counter steering, tho

[Crisis management]

Hmmmm...might have to try that.
Right or wrong about which side goes which way, peg weighting still initiates counter steering, tho

It's subtle, the reason the "weight the side you want to turn to" theory exists is that the intial effect is small, so the bike seems to fall into the side you weight once countersteering takes over.
You're right about peg weighting initiating countersteering, just maybe not the way you assumed it occurred. A good way to see this is get that tarty wife of yours on a bike, riding away from you, standing on the pegs and weighting pegs alternately, you will get a graphic illustration of the actions/ reactions (and a good laugh with any luck).

I suggest this purely in the interests of science.........

[MSTRS]

A good way to see this is get that tarty wife of yours on a bike, riding away from you, standing on the pegs and weighting pegs alternately, you will get a graphic illustration of the actions/ reactions (and a good laugh with any luck).


I'm not sure that I'd see what the bike was doing. I know what her arse looks like in leather...

[bogan]

No your wrong.....apologies for wandering into this physics discussion but there seems (I may have misunderstood this) to be an understanding that the bike leans into the side you weight a peg on, this does not happen.

Assume you are travelling in a straight line, put weight on the right hand peg and the bike will lean to the left, the bike & rider act as a unit to maintain balance, when the rider moves weight to one side the bike leans the opposite way to maintain balance. Try this out by standing on the pegs, hands off bars at 50km/hr in a straight line and steer with the pegs.


yeh that sounds right, but so is mstrs isn't he? weighting the peg shifts the person to the other side of the bike, so the bike go ever so slightly the other way, which ever so slightly steers the front to the outside (peg weighting side), and that initiates a bike and person lean to the inside.



The reason this is important is that peg weighting and effective countersteering are closely linked, to paraphrase Mr Code:
To initiate a left hand turn, weight the right hand peg at the same time as you push the left hand bar forward, not only do the two actions initiate a sharp lean to the left of the "body" of the bike but the physical action of pushing down (weighting the peg) of the right leg and pushing forward with the left arm are physiologically linked, they are sympathetic movements of the body. Try reaching up high with the left arm and you will find you have extended the right leg at the same time.

This is (IMHO) the beauty of motorcycling, the close link between the machine and the human body, it's a dance not a science experiment.

Before you refute all my claims, bugger off outside and try it out, get in harmony with the machine. :sunny:

yup, born to ride! But those of us planning to build these things (or just have an interest) need to treat it as a dance and a science experiment.

[Dare]

Haven't got anything amazing to add to this except for a wee story.
One time my acc cable broke at some ungodly hour and instead of languishing by the side of the road I decided to crank the idle up and clutch it home. It worked but that's not the point of this story, on the way I realized it was something of a cruise control. Take both hands off the bars (feels a bit like doing it on a pedal bike only more solid) and you can turn it pretty sharply (it is a 250 after all). It wouldn't work much at high speeds (/not stable below about 10) and you could get some serious wobble if you're not careful. BUT. It is possible to a fair degree.
On the no BS bike you might notice that the rider is hopping all over the place but keeping his CoG more or less OVER the bikes so that it doesn't lean, that is not a very clear demonstration IMO.

[Geemsee]

Read a couple of really interesting articles recently.


http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0110_art/index.html

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs


Personally, I subscribe to the Mick Doohan 'school' of motorcycling technique or "basically I don't really know what I'm doing"!:shit:*

(*I think he said this in an interview once)

[R-Soul]

Hmmmm...might have to try that.
Right or wrong about which side goes which way, peg weighting still initiates counter steering, tho

But only a tiny amount.

[avgas]

I steer with my mind man.

[MSTRS]

But only a tiny amount.

Which is why anyone who says this is the best way to make your bike corner is full of it...

[schrodingers cat]

Heres a bit of countersteering, body leaning, peg weighting and perhaps a bit of ass cheek clenching

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[bluebird]

Free your mind and your arse will follow. Works for me.

[Expert]

I watched one of stunt fellas the other day, that christian pshcieffer i think it was. anyway, he was riding around and around in very tight circleswith no hands on the bars, in fact he was dragging his inside glove along the ground. the bars were clearly not countersteering in fact they looked like they were on the inside lock.

Countersteering INITIATES the turn, body mass keeps it turning.
You weight the inside bar in a corner, that may feel like you are countersteering, but you are not.
To tighten up a turn you have to put positive input into the steering, you can initiate this with countersteering to make the bike fall into the corner, but you cannot maintain this throughout the turn, unless you are oversteering and the back wheel is rotating around the front.

Try getting round a right hand corner with the bars turned left all the way and see how far you get.

[MSTRS]

"Expert" - you seem to misunderstand countersteering...
It is really only on a speedway solo that one could ride the way you suggest.
No - countersteering just initiates a turn and further application on the same side will tighten that turn (assuming that everything else was in 'balance'), or applied to the outside barend will straighten the bike up.

[Maha]

Just watch this.

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[hellokitty]

That was good thanks!!!!!!! I knew I was doing it but I couldn't understand exactly how or what I was doing, so I thought hard about it while I was riding and realised I had been doing it all along but now I actually understand what I have been doing!

[Crisis management]

Wel done Maha, 11 pages of pedantic arquement and you clear it all up with 1 post.....my new Hero!

[bogan]

Wel done Maha, 11 pages of pedantic arquement and you clear it all up with 1 post.....my new Hero!

he didn't illustrate how the gyroscopic forces come into play though :whistle:

[Maha]

Wel done Maha, 11 pages of pedantic arquement and you clear it all up with 1 post.....my new Hero!

84 opinions on one question!
So much gets lost in translation.

[R-Soul]

"Expert" - you seem to misunderstand countersteering...
It is really only on a speedway solo that one could ride the way you suggest.
No - countersteering just initiates a turn and further application on the same side will tighten that turn (assuming that everything else was in 'balance'), or applied to the outside barend will straighten the bike up.

Thats exactly what he said...

Use CS to get the bike to lean. Once leaned, you dont keep pushing on the bar. You can relax on them. To tighten up or straighten out, you push on bars again (on different sides of course)

[Chrislost]

The general consensus on Kiwi Biker is that the laws of physics don't apply to motorcycles and that there is no such thing as countersteering. The local genii have convinced themselves that it's their bum steering that gets the business done. Interestingly none have agreed to have a spot of weld attached to their steering heads in order to test these theories.

A spot weld would not work, as the bars need to turn for the bike to actually turn.
You can see this as your rolling down a large hill that appears on the ATNR, standing on the seat with arms outstretched. When you get to the corner at the bottom, still standing on the seat and look at the bars they actually turn onto the corner on their own accord.

A sports bike WOULD NOT TURN AT ALL with the bars fixed dead ahead

[schrodingers cat]

84 opinions on one question!
So much gets lost in translation.

I never gave a shit about countersteering - I was well aware of the desirability of pushing the bars in the 'opposite' direction momentarily to initiate the turn. I actually asked folks to describe the actions and timing of peg weighting during the turn. I had a couple of decent enough answers and one really excellent PM

I guess what I've learned on KB is that any post serves a primary function of airing ones predudice. If a question is answered that is purely secondary

Carry on

[cowpoos]

I watched one of stunt fellas the other day, that christian pshcieffer i think it was. anyway, he was riding around and around in very tight circleswith no hands on the bars, in fact he was dragging his inside glove along the ground. the bars were clearly not countersteering in fact they looked like they were on the inside lock.


he was going slow...at the point of falling over!!!

Not just talking to you expert.

But theres a whole heap of guys on hear try to say that just leaning and weight pegs turns a corner....and your all very very fucking wrong....with little understanding of physics.
YOU CAN NOT STEER A BIKE BY JUST LEANING!!!! YOU ALL FUCKING WRONG!!

[cowpoos]

A spot weld would not work, as the bars need to turn for the bike to actually turn.
You can see this as your rolling down a large hill that appears on the ATNR, standing on the seat with arms outstretched. When you get to the corner at the bottom, still standing on the seat and look at the bars they actually turn onto the corner on their own accord.

A sports bike WOULD NOT TURN AT ALL with the bars fixed dead ahead

Don't be dumb....going slow at the point of unstability is different to turning above that....seriously....some common sense dude, You usually smarter than this!!
Welding th bars will prove the point...and whos going to try it???? the bike will turn a tiny bit....only due to the tiny colapse on the side wall of the front tyre...proballe a 100-150 metre arch at 50kmph.

[bogan]

he was going slow...at the point of falling over!!!

Not just taking to you expert.

But theres a whole heap of guys on hear try to say that just leaning and weight pegs turns a corner....and your all very very fucking wrong....with little understanding of physics.
YOU CAN NOT STEER A BIKE BY JUST LEANING!!!! YOU ALL FUCKING WRONG!!

you may be getting the wrong end of the stick there, peg weighting and leaning (techniques) can steer bikes cos a result of those actions is a bar push/pull movement as well, which results in countersteering (physics), maybe thats what the people you are refering to were meaning?

[Urano]

I had a couple of decent enough answers and one really excellent PM

could i ask you, with the permission of the author of that pm, to share it with us?
there's always to learn from others and i'd really like to read good explanations and points of view...

if you all don't mind...

[MSTRS]

But theres a whole heap of guys on hear try to say that just leaning and weight pegs turns a corner....and your all very very fucking wrong....with little understanding of physics.
YOU CAN NOT STEER A BIKE BY JUST LEANING!!!! YOU ALL FUCKING WRONG!!


you may be getting the wrong end of the stick there, peg weighting and leaning (techniques) can steer bikes cos a result of those actions is a bar push/pull movement as well, which results in countersteering (physics), maybe thats what the people you are refering to were meaning?

Weighting one side of a bike, however you do it, will make a bike turn. Direct bar input is not reqd. Hands off the bars, moderate downhill (to maintain speed) and various body contortions. Try it - I have. It works.
But it is not a viable alternative to the push/pull method of turning a bike.

[Expert]

Read my post again.
The stunt guy illustrates that body mass keeps the bike turning, his weight on the inside of the bike and leaning the bike makes the bars want to turn in that direction because of the castor effect. the pressure/contact point of the tyre is behind the centreline of the headstock and this will turn the bars naturally.
You pressure the inside bar when you are cornering according to the angle of lean, the position of your body mass, how tight you want to be turning against the centrifugal force trying to keep the bike upright. It's a juggling act.

I'm saying that countersteering initiates a turn, body mass and positive input on the bars keeps the the bike turning. you can't countersteer all the way around a corner, that's called oversteering like what someone said about speedway riders.

aproach the corner, shift body weight to the inside of bike, positive input on the bars (turn where you want to go) bike wants to rotate around your body mass. if you pressure the inside bar too much while you're lent over and you don't reposition your body mass or alter your heading, you will fall off.

[MSTRS]

AH, that makes (more) sense. Yes, you are right. All except for the 'positive pressure on the bars midturn'. Surely it depends on the bike (and rider) as to whether anything need be done to the bars to maintain a cornering arc?
I know that on the GSXR, I can drop into even a moderate corner, and essentially take my hands off the bars. The bike will maintain it's course unless I change something else.

[Expert]

Unfortunately not all corners have a constant radius or are without their unexpected obstacles i.e. wildlife, flora, manholes on the racing line etc. and you have to be able to tighten the turn, avoid or whatever to avoid a pile up.
Your bike is obviously a sports bike and these are set up with a minimum castor angle to promote quick steering, the headstock angle is very steep and the distance between the tyres' contact patch and the point where the headstock centreline touches the ground is shorter making the castor effect less pronounced, the leverage trying to turn the bars inwards is less, hence being able to take your hands off mid turn, this also allows you to be able to input into the bars very easily and get the bike to do what you want it to do.

[MSTRS]

Which is what I was saying re bar input mid-corner depends on the bike.
Naturally, some adjustment of line is often required, in which case some additional counter-steering will need to happen. Once an arc is set up, simply turning the bars further into the arc to tighten up does not work.

[Expert]

Anybody know why it's possible to turn corners whilst wheelying?

[bogan]

Anybody know why it's possible to turn corners whilst wheelying?

for ones at decent speed its the same effect as for countersteering, turning bars leans bike; when its on back wheel leaning turns the back wheel much the same as the front wheel is turned in normal operation. And for slow speed wheelies when the front is barley spinning it must be same principals as unicycle.

[Spearfish]

this is a clip from Keith Codes twist of the wrist II DVD
This bike has a second set of bars welded straight over the factory and shows the BS related to peg weight as a realistic steering method.
The full DVD is much clearer with the science behind it and showing a movement meter on the factory bars.
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[CHOPPA]

I can often let my partner steer the bike completely with her body weight moving side to side. She is not touching the bars and the bike turns.

That bike has BS on the front for a reason

[crystalball]

lol i remember my 1st bike my mates dad told me about counter steering and i should try it. so i did and lol i use to see how much i could do it i would turn the front wheel as much as i needed and sometimes use to see how much i could lol. and omg i use to lean it so freaken low that once i took it to bike shop to wire my headlight back on and they said my rims were scraped and pegs. but i 0.0 (old honda cb250) i dont actually try to do it anymore as i find it looks silly and be better on the moto x track doing that to do driffting. no need for it. just happens on its own but yes you can do it tho.

[Spearfish]

I can often let my partner steer the bike completely with her body weight moving side to side. She is not touching the bars and the bike turns.

That bike has BS on the front for a reason

Yep I guess so.

[onearmedbandit]

lol i remember my 1st bike my mates dad told me about counter steering and i should try it. so i did and lol i use to see how much i could do it i would turn the front wheel as much as i needed and sometimes use to see how much i could lol. and omg i use to lean it so freaken low that once i took it to bike shop to wire my headlight back on and they said my rims were scraped and pegs. but i 0.0 (old honda cb250) i dont actually try to do it anymore as i find it looks silly and be better on the moto x track doing that to do driffting. no need for it. just happens on its own but yes you can do it tho.

You were scraping your rims?

[Crisis management]

You were scraping your rims?

What, you mean you haven't done that?


All us good rider scrape our rims, ..........elbows, collarbones, faces

[MSTRS]

I can often let my partner steer the bike completely with her body weight moving side to side. She is not touching the bars and the bike turns.

That bike has BS on the front for a reasonWe all know you can ride. At the next round, can you do a lap with your hands off the bars. Some clever clogs can set you up with a foot accelerator, surely?


You were scraping your rims?

Yea, that was gilding the lily...

[R-Soul]

I can often let my partner steer the bike completely with her body weight moving side to side. She is not touching the bars and the bike turns.

That bike has BS on the front for a reason

then I put it to you that you are subcionsciously assisting her with your steering. Do you remove your hands from the bars?

[onearmedbandit]

Are you saying that it isn't possible to make a bike change direction (ie turn) regardless of the arc without input from the bars?

[MSTRS]

Not me.
Weight change can turn a bike. Just not quick, sharp or precise.

[bogan]

Not me.
Weight change can turn a bike. Just not quick, sharp or precise.

tis that way by design too I reckon, you seen those little RC bikes? apparently they have a shifting weight in them to steer, and they are well nimble :shit:

[Spearfish]

tis that way by design too I reckon, you seen those little RC bikes? apparently they have a shifting weight in them to steer, and they are well nimble :shit:

The full dvd shows a rider on the BS bike heaving it over to make it turn, it did slightly but the interesting thing was it slightly counter steered (no direct rider input) before slightly veering off line. It seemed wheel diameter, speed, weight, rake and trail makes a difference to what speed and how much it works and or course how much you heave into it.

I'm not sure Rossi will win any races riding while checking out is own pic in a bike mag with his spare hands.

[onearmedbandit]

No one is saying that weight movement is a replacement for countersteer via the bars, you'd have to draw a pretty long bow to come to that conclusion. All that's being said is that a bike can have it's direction changed, no matter how ineffectively, by moving your weight. It appears however that some dispute this.

[R-Soul]

No one is saying that weight movement is a replacement for countersteer via the bars, you'd have to draw a pretty long bow to come to that conclusion. All that's being said is that a bike can have it's direction changed, no matter how ineffectively, by moving your weight. It appears however that some dispute this.


I am not disputing this - you can change direction by weight shift- but so slowly that its mostly inneffective in everyday riding.

Choppa did not say what corners he was riding around with his partner. If they were gradual sweeping corners on a motorway or country road, then his partner could very well have steered the bike through them by weight shifting. But I would question it if he said she steered it around 90 degree suburban streets.

[MSTRS]

All that's being said is that a bike can have it's direction changed, no matter how ineffectively, by moving your weight. It appears however that some dispute this.

I'm picking up that some believe that bar input is totally un-necessary, and that weight shifting alone is all they need...

[onearmedbandit]

I'm picking up that some believe that bar input is totally un-necessary, and that weight shifting alone is all they need...

Ooookay, that is scary.

[MSTRS]

We share the roads with these turkeys...

[bogan]

but not for too long (for your individual turkey that is), one way or another...

[GOONR]

....... steered it around 90 degree suburban streets.

I used to be able to do that on a push bike without touching the bars. Buggered if I'd even think about trying it on a motorbike.

[MSTRS]

It's a matter of weight, coupled with the mass/gyroscopic forces...

[R-Soul]

I used to be able to do that on a push bike without touching the bars. Buggered if I'd even think about trying it on a motorbike.

You might be able to do it if you were going reeeeeal slow (like 10-20kph - although I am not sure and have never tried it). But def's not at normal useful commuting speeds.

A push bike has 10kg, my bike 189kg. Major difference. Especially at speed when the gyroscpic forces on heavy rotating wheel is keeping them upright.

[CHOPPA]

then I put it to you that you are subcionsciously assisting her with your steering. Do you remove your hands from the bars?

I wrote out my argument but it sorta just proved me wrong... I guess the point im trying to make is that counter steering doesnt just happen through the bars. When you move your body and weight the pegs it automatically makes the bike counter steer. The bars obviously work the best but it is a whole fluid motion, i still dont have it smooth enough..................

[MSTRS]

I wrote out my argument but it sorta just proved me wrong... :clap: ...takes a big man to come on here and say he's wrong...:innocent:

[CHOPPA]

:clap: ...takes a big man to come on here and say he's wrong...:innocent:

haha yup! First and last time...

[R-Soul]

haha yup! First and last time...

Thats happened to me a couple of times, when I write it out and then re-read it, and realise that my arguments contradict each other and explanation has just made me understand it better and that I am wrong. But it still really sucks to admit it.

[MSTRS]

I'm never wrong.

































There are varying degrees of 'right', however.

[bogan]

I'm never wrong neither, cos you are only wrong when you have to admit it, at which point you have changed your mind so you're right anyway :bleh:

[R-Soul]

I'm never wrong.



AHA! you're wrong.

[MSTRS]

AHA! you're wrong.

No, I'm not...

[bogan]

No, I'm not...

to quote many a douchebag kb member, yes you are but I can't be bothered explaining why!

[John_H]

I prefer taking leaning and countersteering out of the equation and just using the force. It works for me.

[Urano]

oh, it works for everybody.
any child learn it trying to put the triangular block inside the squared hole...

[schrodingers cat]

Riding yesterday it occured to me that the input required on my (sports) bike is really small. And this maybe where the confusion lies.

You read all this stuff about 'positive forceful inputs on the bars'. Fk Me! If I gave a positive, forceful input on the bar I'd be on my ear.

It is interesting to be aware of the technique and that you do do it ,but after that just get on with it.

More and more I'm finding what I do with my feet and legs helps me feel connected to the bike and register what is happening where the rubber hits the road

[onearmedbandit]

When I'm on the pace I'll definitely give a forceful input on the bar, dropping the bike on it's ear quickly is better for the bikes composure opposed to gradually tipping it in. The bike responds positively and sharply.

[schrodingers cat]

When I'm on the pace I'll definitely give a forceful input on the bar, dropping the bike on it's ear quickly is better for the bikes composure opposed to gradually tipping it in. The bike responds positively and sharply.

I'm not suggesting I don't - its just it doesn't feel like a 'forceful' input nor terribly big. That may be cause I am a big strong boy

[onearmedbandit]

I'm not suggesting I don't - its just it doesn't feel like a 'forceful' input nor terribly big. That may be cause I am a big strong boy

In comparison to swinging a hammer you're right, it's not forceful or terribly big. However in relation to normal steering input it is.

[schrodingers cat]

Strange. Impossible to countersteer and yet it can be steered.

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Anyone care to revise their strongly held opinions? :innocent:

[pkplex]

Strange. Impossible to countersteer and yet it can be steered.

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Anyone care to revise their strongly held opinions? :innocent:

Well for starters it is one wheel, it is not a bike. And then you need to show him actually steering it in some sort of controlled fashion, not just sticking his feet out.

Id pay him $100 to go as fast as he can and slam on the brakes though, that would be some funny viewing :)

[NZsarge]

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs


Have a search around on the intarwebs for Keith Code's experiments with the "No BS" bike (BS = Body Steering = Bullshit) - a bike with a second set of bars that are fixed to the chassis so you can't countersteer it. He found that even the best riders can only initiate a really lazy wide turn, and it was really hard to control. When people say "I don't use countersteering" or "I use weight shifts to steer the bike" what they mean is "I don't know that I'm using countersteering" but they still are.

This video shows the "No BS" bike in action..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644
I agree with Crash Harry, find yourself some Keith Code literature or better still one of his 3 (I think) videos.

[bogan]

Strange. Impossible to countersteer and yet it can be steered.

Anyone care to revise their strongly held opinions? :innocent:

steered is pretty generous, more corners than not he had to scuff his feet along the ground, so i'll stick with my previous opinions thanks!

but it is pretty cool though, not really useful for anything, but cool nonetheless:Punk:

[dynamite9585]

personal experience on this topic = zero.
basic understanding of the physics behind it, pretty good.

when riding your wheel is basicaly a gyroscope.
gyro's have an interesting property called presession, what it means is that when a force is applied to the gyro that foce is acted out 90º in the direction of rotation.
how this relates is (example given for a right and swerve)
you want to go right, when you turn your bars left, this is in effect applying a sideways force to the back of the front wheel from left to right (as your seated).
when this force is presessed 90º it acts at the top of the wheel attempting, thus starting to lean the bike to the right, causing the bike to turn right.

now as i said at the top this is my understanding of the theroy behind it all from what i have read about countersteering and my knowledge of gyro's.

my understanding is that body leaning is still required, the counter steer simply makes everything happen faster.


i didn't ready the whole post so my aplogies if this was already mentioned. if you youtube presession you should come up with some good explanation videos.