Teachers only day

[Jackal]

I have not got kids at school anymore. All grown up and living in all four corners of the world. But today there were kids all over the place around town. One of my work mates tells me it is a "teachers only day" Teachers have a training day on, get this, how to make sure the students acheive more out of their schooling. WTF. Surely this would happen if the kids were at school and not hanging around the streets. Have the teachers not got enough time to do this on other than school days. Mind you, I suppose they only get about 12 weeks holiday a year and are only actually teaching 5 hours a day!!!

[slofox]

I have not got kids at school anymore. All grown up and living in all four corners of the world. But today there were kids all over the place around town. One of my work mates tells me it is a "teachers only day" Teachers have a training day on, get this, how to make sure the students acheive more out of their schooling. WTF. Surely this would happen if the kids were at school and not hanging around the streets. Have the teachers not got enough time to do this on other than school days. Mind you, I suppose they only get about 12 weeks holiday a year and are only actually teaching 5 hours a day!!!

Huh. You've never been a teacher have you...

[Genie]

Having recently started to work within the school....teachers need this time.

I too used to think..wtf. Since being in this environment on a daily basis I see things so differently.

In the old days, teacher stood at the front of the class, spouted off their stuff and the kids either did it or didn't.

Now days those choosing not to do the work have people to help assist them and keep them on track. There are also many chilren with learning difficulties that are not being overlooked and that takes a lot of extra planning and time and commitment. There are also those with behaviourial problems which once upon a time were not tolerated but today, teachers have no power to discipline...another extra those poor teachers need to tackle. Do the teacher's a favour and sort your kids out at home so the teachers can get on with the teaching.....

[davebullet]

Ever since they took away the cane / strap, teachers cannot practice on the kids. So what teachers do, is practice a bit of leather whipping and caning on eachother - nudge nudge, wink wink...

[JimO]

my kids dont need sorting out.....and why are most teacher only days on a monday or just after holidays they are just lazy cunts

[doc]

It must be great to been in a job where you can say no to the customer/patient/whatever. Sorry got other things to do today .

[rapid van cleef]

Hmmm. Try being a teacher in a secondary school for one year and being successful with your planning, marking, designing teaching resources, producing documentation to back up your every step as a professional, which all happens in your own time at weekends and during holidays, then come to the table with your argument once more. The workload of a successful teacher is huge. Most successful teachers have to work for at least 50% of their holidays plus some time at weekends and evenings, to produce quality education during the 5 - 6 hours of classroom contact time. Saying that, like every walk of life, there are and always will be lazy people getting away with things that they shouldnt be allowed to. so, the successful teachers put in huge hours outside the classroom. Those that are not so successful, do not.

Also take into account the huge debts accrued from 3-5 years of studying and training to earn the right to work 60 + hours per week and put up with sometimes extremely abusive adolescents(customers) and their parents whilst being nice and polite. But, most of them are great.

[Indoo]

Mind you, I suppose they only get about 12 weeks holiday a year and are only actually teaching 5 hours a day!!!

Are you trolling or actually that ignorant and stupid?

[kave]

I am married to a teacher, she did less hours working a regular 8:30-5:30 job. If a teacher asks for a single page of work from 30 kids they have to mark 30 pages of work. There are six lesson blocks in a day, that equates to a shitload of kids and a shitload of marking, then there is reports etc... and then the teachers are often expected to give up their own time unpaid to take activities outside of schooltime such as sports, dance and drama. Fuck being a teacher.

[rapid van cleef]

Thanks for the support guys. i was trying to be polite with my post.

[rainman]

The workload of a successful teacher is huge.

And inversely proportional to the pay.


It must be great to been in a job where you can say no to the customer/patient/whatever. Sorry got other things to do today .

Pupils/students are not like customers.

[Gubb]

Ever since they took away the cane / strap, teachers cannot practice on the kids. So what teachers do, is practice a bit of leather whipping and caning on eachother - nudge nudge, wink wink...

Say no more.

[nonie]

Been a secondary teacher for 9 years. My students lways had work/study to get on with during teacher only days. if kids are all over town then maybe they don't give a dam about their own study. My experience is that teachers care far more about student success than the majority of the students . They work damn hard so that your children are given every opportunity to succeed. It is not uncommon to still be marking student work at 10pm. Parents demand quality education and that means quality teachers who take part in professional development for the betterment of the students. Training in self defense should be our next step and we SO deserve a pay rise.

[Tank]

I generally have a poor view of Teachers in New Zealand - now its not a job that I would like, nor do I think I could do it. I know a few who are good friends. But as educators - nagh.

As for the working 1/2 their holidays etc etc - with most of them not a hope.

I wish that teachers equaled the image of people that we want educating our kids - but sadly in reality they mostly arnt. Once people get involved with the school this becomes very clear. Heck my daughters teacher actually said to the class he became a teacher so he could have the summer off with pay so he could surf.

Afterschool clubs / sports - well that gets them extra pay - so its not all "just for the kids". (some teachers it is ALL about the kids - as not to do them a diservice - but they are in the minority).

Teachers only days - FFS they have them right after summer holidays - I firmly believe that they should be in the holiday period - not a extra day.

I feel very strongly about this - we decided to put our kid thru private school - its costing a bundle and it is a stretch each month to find the extra $XXXX and sacrifices need to be made - but the difference between this and his old school is night and day. I wouldnt be having to do that if teachers were indeed what we wanted / thought them to be.

Of course - Im blaming the teachers - the education system is also at fault. Some teachers should not be hired as educators - a degree does not a teacher make. But also funding, equipment, useless as shit heads (see Cambridge High school) fucking around with the likes of NECA, not allowing to fail kids who arnt achieving etc really does not help.

Go to the lower decile schools and it gets worse. I really feel for those kids - its their first real 'chance' and sadly 'the system' often fails them.

[nonie]

clubs and sports! No we do not get paid extra to do that

[schrodingers cat]

It must be great to been in a job where you can say no to the customer/patient/whatever. Sorry got other things to do today .

Well all you need is a strong collective voice and you can negotiate for such a thing in your employment contract.
Oh I forgot. Motorcyclists don't like to get together and lobby.

[Usarka]

I'll take a stab at why it's the case.

[rapid van cleef]

hmmm.....well thats total bollocks as far as i am concerned. there are teachers that should not be teachers and seem to have gained their degree by opening a cornflakes packet and out it falls. like i said...'successful teachers' have a huge workload and very high work ethic........some dont............like some mechanics are crap...some aint. as an overseas trained teacher, the general standard of education and teacher competency standards here in nz is low, although there are some excellent teachers doing the right thing here. this is not the fault of the teachers, rather the fault of the standards set out by the M.O.E. that teachers and students much reach. the stuff i used to teach at yr 12 overseas is not taught until 2nd year of degrees here from my experience.

[Milts]

I wish that teachers equaled the image of people that we want educating our kids - but sadly in reality they mostly aren't. Once people get involved with the school this becomes very clear. Heck my daughters teacher actually said to the class he became a teacher so he could have the summer off with pay so he could surf.

Afterschool clubs / sports - well that gets them extra pay - so its not all "just for the kids". (some teachers it is ALL about the kids - as not to do them a diservice - but they are in the minority).
...

I feel very strongly about this - we decided to put our kid through private school - its costing a bundle and it is a stretch each month to find the extra $XXXX and sacrifices need to be made - but the difference between this and his old school is night and day. I wouldn't be having to do that if teachers were indeed what we wanted / thought them to be.

Of course - Im blaming the teachers - the education system is also at fault. Some teachers should not be hired as educators - a degree does not a teacher make. But also funding, equipment, useless as shit heads (see Cambridge High school) fucking around with the likes of NECA, not allowing to fail kids who arnt achieving etc really does not help.

Go to the lower decile schools and it gets worse. I really feel for those kids - its their first real 'chance' and sadly 'the system' often fails them.

Having recently (4 years ago) finished 13 years of schooling, this is not what I have found at all. I didn't go to a private school but I was at higher decile public schools. At Wellington College we had a number of students who transferred in from private schools, because they felt the education was better.

In my 13 years at school I must have had approximately 30 teachers. I could probably name every one of them, from year one on. In that time I can name maybe three really genuinely bad teachers. The rest were all capable, gave me opportunities to learn, supported me above and beyond the call of duty ("sure, if you want to write some practice essays email them to me and I'll mark them before study leave starts" - from at least five of my teachers in my final years), and were professional in how they went about their job.

Some were better at controlling the class than others, and some were better at making class enjoyable. But I don't think that even now I have any real appreciation of how much work they must have put in to preparing each lesson, and mark our work. Who cares if part of their reasoning for teaching is that they can bugger off for half of summer - they were dedicated. I strongly suspect that increased bureaucracy in the last decade has made their job much harder. If they require an extra day partway through the year for planning, then so be it.

I admit I was lucky in the teachers I had and schools I attended, but I think teachers need to be fully supported in any way we can. They have more and more responsibility heaped upon them and do much more than I suspect the 'average worker' does, for what amounts to a pittance when you compare it to managerial staff working probably the same hours, on a lower level of education, with less responsibility and better benefits.

I also agree that they require more training. Teacher training in NZ is minimal compared to overseas. But if you up the training, you will HAVE to up the average salary to encourage people to take it - and I don't see this government doing that in the near future, if at all.

[rapid van cleef]

Hi 5 Milts

[TomJ]

Hi 5 Milts

here here!!!
I always offer the doubters or p takers to come and job shaddow for a week. Once I say see you for pick up at 7.15am will get you home by 6pm and don't forget to do 2 hrs work in the evening they soon get over their preconceptions!!!

[Virago]

Been a secondary teacher for 9 years. My students lways had work/study to get on with during teacher only days. if kids are all over town then maybe they don't give a dam about their own study. My experience is that teachers care far more about student success than the majority of the students . They work damn hard so that your children are given every opportunity to succeed. It is not uncommon to still be marking student work at 10pm. Parents demand quality education and that means quality teachers who take part in professional development for the betterment of the students. Training in self defense should be our next step and we SO deserve a pay rise.


here here!!!
I always offer the doubters or p takers to come and job shaddow for a week. Once I say see you for pick up at 7.15am will get you home by 6pm and don't forget to do 2 hrs work in the evening they soon get over their preconceptions!!!
At least we all know now where the apalling standards of spelling and grammar originate...

[nonie]

LOL..I'm a teacher not a typist

[TomJ]

wot appens when your brain worx faster than your fingers!!! (we can add xtra txt spk if that winds you up!)

[trailblazer]

although my teachers at school were all about the studants that were the brainy kids and didn't seem to want to teach kids like me that arn't all that inteligant i have alot of respect for the teachers of today. They have to put up with alot of crap from students aswell as the parants blaming the teachers for there kids not performing when all the kids want to do is hang around town smoking and getting into trouble. If i had of had teachers like some of the teachers at whakatane high maybe i may of followed my dreams and got the carrer that i wanted.

[Genie]

LOL..I'm a teacher not a typist

funny you should say that...one think I've noticed at school is that when the laptops come out the kids dont' have a clue how to type, they have no understanding of the keyboard.

I'm thinking that maybe, they should be taught the basics of typing but then the teachers can't type for shit either!!!!

[TomJ]

[QUOTE=Genie;1129752531]funny you should say that...one think I've noticed at school is that when the laptops come out the kids dont' have a clue how to type, they have no understanding of the keyboard.

I think the problem is that 'typing' is seen as old fashioned and not part of the trendy IT revolution

the result is that most people manage the 'two fingers on each hand' techique that will get them through but is not as useful real typing.

[rapid van cleef]

being able to type is not a pre requisite for being a good classroom practioner.

[Genie]

being able to type is not a pre requisite for being a good classroom practioner.

ha....you are correct

[oldrider]

Been a secondary teacher for 9 years. My students lways had work/study to get on with during teacher only days. if kids are all over town then maybe they don't give a dam about their own study. My experience is that teachers care far more about student success than the majority of the students . They work damn hard so that your children are given every opportunity to succeed. It is not uncommon to still be marking student work at 10pm. Parents demand quality education and that means quality teachers who take part in professional development for the betterment of the students. Training in self defense should be our next step and we SO deserve a pay rise.


I generally have a poor view of Teachers in New Zealand - now its not a job that I would like, nor do I think I could do it. I know a few who are good friends. But as educators - nagh.

As for the working 1/2 their holidays etc etc - with most of them not a hope.

I wish that teachers equaled the image of people that we want educating our kids - but sadly in reality they mostly arnt. Once people get involved with the school this becomes very clear. Heck my daughters teacher actually said to the class he became a teacher so he could have the summer off with pay so he could surf.

Afterschool clubs / sports - well that gets them extra pay - so its not all "just for the kids". (some teachers it is ALL about the kids - as not to do them a diservice - but they are in the minority).

Teachers only days - FFS they have them right after summer holidays - I firmly believe that they should be in the holiday period - not a extra day.

I feel very strongly about this - we decided to put our kid thru private school - its costing a bundle and it is a stretch each month to find the extra $XXXX and sacrifices need to be made - but the difference between this and his old school is night and day. I wouldnt be having to do that if teachers were indeed what we wanted / thought them to be.

Of course - Im blaming the teachers - the education system is also at fault. Some teachers should not be hired as educators - a degree does not a teacher make. But also funding, equipment, useless as shit heads (see Cambridge High school) fucking around with the likes of NECA, not allowing to fail kids who arnt achieving etc really does not help.

Go to the lower decile schools and it gets worse. I really feel for those kids - its their first real 'chance' and sadly 'the system' often fails them.

Two entirely different posts quoted above, (I make no judgement or claim) which one aligns with your perception? :shifty:

[Taz]

Are you trolling or actually that ignorant and stupid?

This is a poll eh?? I'm gonna say he's ignorant and stupid......

[Tink]

Our teachers do not have "teacher only days"... they are at school 7am - 4pm and then take a lot of work home to mark. This is not a easy job, but it is a rewarding one when they children do well... a challenge when they don't. I work as a teacher aid, and studying at Uni from July... I love working with kids, and our teachers are NOT babysitters, so if those kids are on the streets then the parents are responsible, as they are given plenty of warning that a teachers only day will occur.

[doc]

.

Heck my daughters teacher actually said to the class he became a teacher so he could have the summer off with pay so he could surf.

Afterschool clubs / sports - well that gets them extra pay - so its not all "just for the kids". (some teachers it is ALL about the kids - as not to do them a diservice - but they are in the minority).

Teachers only days - FFS they have them right after summer holidays - I firmly believe that they should be in the holiday period - not a extra day.



I did the same $120k for both girls to do private school before uni, teachers were more enthusiastic too.
Belonged to a club with one of the teachers spouses who taught one of my daughters , at BBQ's the spouse use to talk about how good a well organised teacher had it teaching privately. The holidays etc

I never regeted the cost.

I also think that they have it pretty good to have "touchy feely" time without their core purpose being around. Faark I hope the Police and hospitals dont adopt this approach.

[Jackal]

Are you trolling or actually that ignorant and stupid?
Probably ignorant, don't consider myself stupid and yes a little bit of trolling involved as well. Just thought I would put it out there just like I did at work during smoko the other day when the 'big boss' from Christchurch was down visiting. After I had finished spouting off he informs me he has been married to a teacher for the past 15 years! Bugger, there goes the pay rise! I don't tar all teachers with the same brush. In my view and experiances both as a student many years ago and putting 6 kids (blended family!) through school you have primary school teachers who are 'teachers' and secondary school teachers who just supply the information that they are told to supply. It is up to the student to either take it on board or not. Some do and some don't. Some become brain surgeons and some become secondary school teachers. I know alot of teachers geez my best man is a principle at a very large North Island College but 95% are a different breed from the rest of us 'non teacher' types. I think some of you are missing the irony in my original post. The teacher only day was for the teachers to find way for the kids to acheive more. I say again surely this would be done better if the kids were at school being taught!

[Howie]

Our teachers do not have "teacher only days"... they are at school 7am - 4pm and then take a lot of work home to mark. This is not a easy job, but it is a rewarding one when they children do well... a challenge when they don't. I work as a teacher aid, and studying at Uni from July... I love working with kids, and our teachers are NOT babysitters, so if those kids are on the streets then the parents are responsible, as they are given plenty of warning that a teachers only day will occur.

This is the sort of arrogant statement I would expect from someone involved in the education sector. In the real world where both or in some cases the only parent works full time to pay the bills getting time off work mid school term to be at home for a day or 2 is not possible, and therefore they have to struggle to organise some sort of child care which isn't always easy as bugger most people are at work during the day. If the schools actually did a study they would find out that teacher only days are actually not liked at all by a lot of parents. I see no reason that the majority of teacher only days could not be planned to be at either end of sets of school holidays which would be easier for parents to organise around.

[rustyrobot]

At least we all know now where the apalling standards of spelling and grammar originate...

apalling?
Sorry, were you the pot or the kettle? :)

[Virago]

apalling?
Sorry, were you the pot or the kettle? :)

Bingo...! Well done. :laugh:

I was hoping one of the dedicated teachers might actually spot it - no chance, huh...? :shutup:

[Tink]

This is the sort of arrogant statement I would expect from someone involved in the education sector. In the real world where both or in some cases the only parent works full time to pay the bills getting time off work mid school term to be at home for a day or 2 is not possible, and therefore they have to struggle to organise some sort of child care which isn't always easy as bugger most people are at work during the day. If the schools actually did a study they would find out that teacher only days are actually not liked at all by a lot of parents. I see no reason that the majority of teacher only days could not be planned to be at either end of sets of school holidays which would be easier for parents to organise around.

I was a solo working mum for 6 years, and you think I am arrogant, no one ever babysits my kids, yes I get every 2nd weekend off, but I am not arrogant, just informed. I have only been teacher aiding for one year, and in the 6 years my daughter has been at school, I have not changed my opinion about the education sector. Mind you I could write a lot more than what I did, and you would prob still say I am arrogant, ask any of my close friends on kb if I am arrogant and you will find I am not "caseye" "conquisitordor" (sp) "princess bandit" "mom" "maha" "oldboy" etc... thanks for such negavity. :(

[Howie]

I was a solo working mum for 6 years, and you think I am arrogant, no one ever babysits my kids, yes I get every 2nd weekend off, but I am not arrogant, just informed. I have only been teacher aiding for one year, and in the 6 years my daughter has been at school, I have not changed my opinion about the education sector. Mind you I could write a lot more than what I did, and you would prob still say I am arrogant, ask any of my close friends on kb if I am arrogant and you will find I am not "caseye" "conquisitordor" (sp) "princess bandit" "mom" "maha" "oldboy" etc... thanks for such negavity. :(

I have and still am a single working parent, 9 years and counting. The comment was more aimed at the education sector than you personnally. I still see no reason that teacher only days could not be better planned, and placed at the ends of school holidays, or even better during them!!
Not all jobs/careeers are easy to get time of from, also having to use leave mid term means that leave can be eaten away, not leaving enough leave for that forgotton kiwi familly experience a familly holiday away somewhere. Oh by the way your lucky you get every second weekend, as I probably average one night every three weeks without my kids.

[Tink]

I have and still am a single working parent, 9 years and counting. The comment was more aimed at the education sector than you personnally. I still see no reason that teacher only days could not be better planned, and placed at the ends of school holidays, or even better during them!!
Not all jobs/careeers are easy to get time of from, also having to use leave mid term means that leave can be eaten away, not leaving enough leave for that forgotton kiwi familly experience a familly holiday away somewhere. Oh by the way your lucky you get every second weekend, as I probably average one night every three weeks without my kids.

I don't consider myself lucky, nor my girls... I would turn back the clock if I could to have their parents together. I miss them every second they are gone...

I am against teachers days I never said I was fore them, but I feel the first comment posted on here, was like teachers are babysitters. Our teachers have meetings after school, and work most of the hoidays preparing for class time. They get 4 weeks a year off like everyone else, unless they are very organized and work hard long days, a lot work from home with children also to look after.

What did you do when your kids were sick ... and had to take time off ? What does anyone do... ? They stay home and look after their kids if no one else can...

[oldrider]

Good bad or otherwise, teachers "do" do a lot of extra work outside of school hours and they do use up a large portion of their seemingly "endless" holidays working.

I can testify to that because I have a lot of relations and friends who are teachers!

Unfortunately they fail to impress me the way they avoid performance payments at every opportunity and cling to their one size fits all collective agreements!

I believe the best teachers should be the ones receiving the best pay but just bleating for pay rises because they find their work hard is hardly reason for a pay rise!

The adage: "pay peanuts if you want monkeys" is really applicable to collectives! IMHO.

[Howie]

I don't consider myself lucky, nor my girls... I would turn back the clock if I could to have their parents together. I miss them every second they are gone...

I am against teachers days I never said I was fore them, but I feel the first comment posted on here, was like teachers are babysitters. Our teachers have meetings after school, and work most of the hoidays preparing for class time. They get 4 weeks a year off like everyone else, unless they are very organized and work hard long days, a lot work from home with children also to look after.

What did you do when your kids were sick ... and had to take time off ? What does anyone do... ? They stay home and look after their kids if no one else can...

I am not saying that teachers don't have a busy working life. What I am saying is that with the dramatic increase in numbers of teacher only days, it puts a strain onto those who are supposedly the customers of the education sector the kids, parents, and their families. I am sure the education sector could come up with a better answer, with teacher only days only being allowed to be tacked on at the beginning or end of term I.E. the day before or after standard school holidays.

Working from home isn't actually an option in a lot of work places. I know I would have a lot of difficulty trying to work from home, for one thing I couldn't get the job in my house.
The analogy of a kid being sick doesn't stack up. Sick leave comes from a different leave allotment, and can also be unpaid. So are you suggesting parents lie to their employer and say they are sick when it is a teacher only day??






I can testify to that because I have a lot of relations and friends who are teachers!

Unfortunately they fail to impress me the way they avoid performance payments at every opportunity and cling to their one size fits all collective agreements!

I believe the best teachers should be the ones receiving the best pay but just bleating for pay rises because they find their work hard is hardly reason for a pay rise!

The adage: "pay peanuts if you want monkeys" is really applicable to collectives! IMHO.

I will have to disagree about collective contracts. They are definitely useful when a large number of employees are involved. Remuneration rates are only one part of collective contracts there are also all the other working conditions that have been fought for and won over many decades by unions. Things like an 8 hour working day, lunch rooms, reasonable toilet facilities etc.

[Tink]

I am not saying that teachers don't have a busy working life. What I am saying is that with the dramatic increase in numbers of teacher only days, it puts a strain onto those who are supposedly the customers of the education sector the kids, parents, and their families. I am sure the education sector could come up with a better answer, with teacher only days only being allowed to be tacked on at the beginning or end of term I.E. the day before or after standard school holidays.

I agree here!

Working from home isn't actually an option in a lot of work places. I know I would have a lot of difficulty trying to work from home, for one thing I couldn't get the job in my house.
The analogy of a kid being sick doesn't stack up. Sick leave comes from a different leave allotment, and can also be unpaid. So are you suggesting parents lie to their employer and say they are sick when it is a teacher only day??

Not at all, I am saying what does one do when you are required to stay home when your child is sick, I have to stay home when they are sick, or any other reason that the school requires it, I don't complain as I bought the children into this world. As for working from home I guess those are the perks (very rare) of the job.


I don't think I am disgreeing with you, just seeing it from a different light... it would be nice to see every teacher wanting to work hard to better our children in life, but it would also be nice to see some parents do the same... and that is another thread.

CURIOUS: Who sets & requests the teachers only day? The Teachers or The Government?

[yungatart]

I
Teachers only days - FFS they have them right after summer holidays - I firmly believe that they should be in the holiday period - not a extra day.


Why should a teacher give up a day in his/her holidays to do professional development?
Holidays are just that, holidays...where one gets to relax and have time away from work related stuff.
Teacher only days should be during school term time, parents need to organise themselves better if they can't cope with one day, FFS!

[rapid van cleef]

Teacher ony days are required by the ministry of education. it is sometimes upto the schools how and when these are used. it is common practice for schools to include 2-3 days at the end of the summer holidays before the students come back to school. the ministry states that each school needs to have 'x' amount of teacher only half days/days throughout the year.

[oldrider]

I will have to disagree about collective contracts. They are definitely useful when a large number of employees are involved. Remuneration rates are only one part of collective contracts there are also all the other working conditions that have been fought for and won over many decades by unions. Things like an 8 hour working day, lunch rooms, reasonable toilet facilities etc.

Well, that's what the unions tell you but most of those things were really the result of advancements in technology and competitive production methods!

The unions probably slowed the advance of improvements down but I don't expect many of the great brainwashed to agree with or understand that notion!

Competition breeds excellence, whereas collectivism is the birthplace of mediocrity!

I.E. Imagine a race, where (by arrangement) everybody crossed the finish line together, every race, every time! :mellow:

The only records ever broken would be for slowness! :yes:

Just another way of looking at things, something to ponder perhaps. :rolleyes:

[Howie]

Why should a teacher give up a day in his/her holidays to do professional development?
Holidays are just that, holidays...where one gets to relax and have time away from work related stuff.
Teacher only days should be during school term time, parents need to organise themselves better if they can't cope with one day, FFS!

The problem becomes larger when you have one child in the primary area and another in the first years of secondary, as very rarely are the teacher only days on the same day for each sector. I read that as another example of the education department/ schools dictating to their customers what they should do.

Why do all teachers have to have the same day off? Other industries organise their training around the main focus of the business. Very few if any close the doors for a full day for training purposes.


Well, that's what the unions tell you but most of those things were really the result of advancements in technology and competitive production methods!

The unions probably slowed the advance of improvements down but I don't expect many of the great brainwashed to agree with or understand that notion!

Competition breeds excellence, whereas collectivism is the birthplace of mediocrity!

I.E. Imagine a race, where (by arrangement) everybody crossed the finish line together, every race, every time! :mellow:

The only records ever broken would be for slowness! :yes:

Just another way of looking at things, something to ponder perhaps. :rolleyes:

so you would say someone having to work a 6 hour shift in the retail sector, in a sole charge position in a retail mall, who is not allowed to close the shop to have a meal/drink break or even to go to the toilet is alright?? oh and this isn't ages ago but very recently.
Lets not also forget the hundred or so people that are killed in work place accidents each year, or the 700-1000 people that die each year from gradual process illnesses and dieases caused by exposure to dangerous processes in the work place, some of which are purely shortcuts taken by businesses to help the bottom line. But this is really a subject for another thread.

[oldrider]

so you would say someone having to work a 6 hour shift in the retail sector, in a sole charge position in a retail mall, who is not allowed to close the shop to have a meal/drink break or even to go to the toilet is alright?? oh and this isn't ages ago but very recently.
Lets not also forget the hundred or so people that are killed in work place accidents each year, or the 700-1000 people that die each year from gradual process illnesses and dieases caused by exposure to dangerous processes in the work place, some of which are purely shortcuts taken by businesses to help the bottom line. But this is really a subject for another thread.

No I wasn't saying anything specific really, just suggesting things can be different if you think about them differently!

We tend to get pushed into one line of thought depending who we gather our prompts from.

Perhaps "brainwashed" was a poor choice of words but I can't think of a friendly one that says what I wanted to say.

Wasn't trying to be confrontational, just thinking from a different angle.

[Howie]

No I wasn't saying anything specific really, just suggesting things can be different if you think about them differently!

We tend to get pushed into one line of thought depending who we gather our prompts from.

Perhaps "brainwashed" was a poor choice of words but I can't think of a friendly one that says what I wanted to say.

Wasn't trying to be confrontational, just thinking from a different angle.

I didn't think you were being confrontational, but I also think unions still have there place in the modern workplace. I like to discuss differing points of view as it is good to have an open mind about different solutions to issues.

As to the subject of this thread teacher only days. I just think that the education department/ schools have not put enough thought into the pressures that finding child care for these days puts onto some parents/families, as I have heard a lot of people complain about the timing of them.

[watermellon]

I've been a teacher for years. I'd leave tomorrow if I had a better offer. I love the teaching aspect and that keeps me going but I am drowning in paperwork. The time I get for planning lessons is being eaten away by new requirements, measurements, some or other thing I need to be seen to be doing, some or other educational flavour of the month taxonomy that must be woven into my lessons and documented accordingly, some inspection preparations, the new curriculum, the old curriculum, the new resources that'll be out of date by the end of term, the behavioural issues I'll have to address with a seven-tiered conflict management system, the calls from and to parents, the lock-down rehearsals, the fights I'll step into (appearing later on a website near you), the pressure to get lazy kids more and more credits they don’t deserve, and the Teacher Only days that we don’t want and that are invariably a complete and utter f*****g waste of time (most often in time set-aside by Govt. for new curriculum preparations – not the school’s choice). I’m not arsed that many on here think the job is a breeze. If you haven’t done the job then you’ve no idea what it’s like and if you’re too thick to realise that, you could never qualify for the job in the first place. For the record, it took five unpaid years to qualify and about a decade to reach the $69,000 I earn. Make of that what you will. I couldn’t give a shit.

[oldrider]

I didn't think you were being confrontational, but I also think unions still have there place in the modern workplace. I like to discuss differing points of view as it is good to have an open mind about different solutions to issues.

As to the subject of this thread teacher only days. I just think that the education department/ schools have not put enough thought into the pressures that finding child care for these days puts onto some parents/families, as I have heard a lot of people complain about the timing of them.

My wife was the local school cleaner for many years and their union used to send out a periodical to it's members to keep them up to date.

I used to read them from cover to cover because I found them interesting and rather informative.

I agree with you that there is a place for unions and collectives and this group is a case in point.

I believe that workers who do highly skilled work should be encouraged and trained to negotiate their own employment contracts with their direct employer (manager).

Companies should also train and empower their managers to negotiate and set the employment contracts of the workers that they are directly responsible for too.

Employment rewards should be based on performance and contribution to the overall performance objectives of the company rather than based solely on qualifications.

Qualifications should only feature in establishing the suitability of the applicant for the position on appointment and for personal development or advancement once the position is occupied.

These are the some of the reasons that I am constantly disappointed by the fact that school teachers sell themselves short by not demanding to be able to negotiate performance employment contracts on their own behalf.

Instead, they hide anonymously amongst a union collective and allow (often) lesser capable individuals to negotiate for them in one of the most important agreements of their lives!

If they are not prepared to back themselves why should I (or you) want them to be teaching my precious children or grandchildren in the most formative years of their lives!

I believe this lack of intestinal fortitude shown by our state school teachers is one of the early building block failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!

Birds of a feather flock together.

Monkey see, monkey do!

How satisfied are you that state schools are providing the best possible influence on our children, beyond all possible doubt.

Who really then benefits from teacher only days and why? :confused:

[ukiwi]

My wife was the local school cleaner for many years and their union used to send out a periodical to it's members to keep them up to date.

I used to read them from cover to cover because I found them interesting and rather informative.

I agree with you that there is a place for unions and collectives and this group is a case in point.

I believe that workers who do highly skilled work should be encouraged and trained to negotiate their own employment contracts with their direct employer (manager).

Companies should also train and empower their managers to negotiate and set the employment contracts of the workers that they are directly responsible for too.

Employment rewards should be based on performance and contribution to the overall performance objectives of the company rather than based solely on qualifications.

Qualifications should only feature in establishing the suitability of the applicant for the position on appointment and for personal development or advancement once the position is occupied.

These are the some of the reasons that I am constantly disappointed by the fact that school teachers sell themselves short by not demanding to be able to negotiate performance employment contracts on their own behalf.

Instead, they hide anonymously amongst a union collective and allow (often) lesser capable individuals to negotiate for them in one of the most important agreements of their lives!

If they are not prepared to back themselves why should I (or you) want them to be teaching my precious children or grandchildren in the most formative years of their lives!

I believe this lack of intestinal fortitude shown by our state school teachers is one of the early building block failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!

Birds of a feather flock together.

Monkey see, monkey do!

How satisfied are you that state schools are providing the best possible influence on our children, beyond all possible doubt.

Who really then benefits from teacher only days and why? :confused:


You really need to make the effort to find out why there is no "performance" clause in a teachers contract before spouting this kind of misinformed bollocks.

Ask yourself how would you assess the performance of the teacher, by the results of the children they teach? So how would you obtain the results, by standardised testing? This would simply give you fodder to rant on about how unscrupulous teachers only teach what is necessary for the students to gain high pass marks in order to reach a higher pay level. The phrase no win situation springs to mind.

Rather than spouting phrases like "a lack intestinal fortitude" as a means of stroking your self righteous ego and blaming teachers for the apparently inevitable "failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!" you could you use your special super hero power, You know the one, it gives you the ability to know exactly what is wrong with the world, exactly how it should be fixed. exaclty who is to blame and how, of course, its never you.

There are answers to the problems regarding teaching standards and sorry to burst your bubble they dont revolve around a performance clause in a contract or performance pay.

As for teacher only days, 99% of teachers, that I come in contact with, feel exactly the same as parents, an inconvenience we could all do without.

By the way oldrider what is or was your profession?

[oldrider]

You really need to make the effort to find out why there is no "performance" clause in a teachers contract before spouting this kind of misinformed bollocks.

Ask yourself how would you assess the performance of the teacher, by the results of the children they teach? So how would you obtain the results, by standardised testing? This would simply give you fodder to rant on about how unscrupulous teachers only teach what is necessary for the students to gain high pass marks in order to reach a higher pay level. The phrase no win situation springs to mind.

Rather than spouting phrases like "a lack intestinal fortitude" as a means of stroking your self righteous ego and blaming teachers for the apparently inevitable "failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!" you could you use your special super hero power, You know the one, it gives you the ability to know exactly what is wrong with the world, exactly how it should be fixed. exaclty who is to blame and how, of course, its never you.

There are answers to the problems regarding teaching standards and sorry to burst your bubble they dont revolve around a performance clause in a contract or performance pay.

As for teacher only days, 99% of teachers, that I come in contact with, feel exactly the same as parents, an inconvenience we could all do without.

By the way oldrider what is or was your profession?

Emotional but at least it is a response, did you read post #50 by watermellon, it seems to support my view point.

Are you trying to suggest that all teachers are the same and there is no way of telling the difference between their individual performances or results?

I made judgement of the results of our education standards by reading countless employment applications from school leavers and the decline was disturbing.

For what it is worth, I was involved from shop floor to management in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises.

[ukiwi]

Emotional but at least it is a response, did you read post #50 by watermellon, it seems to support my view point.

Are you trying to suggest that all teachers are the same and there is no way of telling the difference between their individual performances or results?

I made judgement of the results of our education standards by reading countless employment applications from school leavers and the decline was disturbing.

For what it is worth, I was involved from shop floor to management in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises.

I am suggesting that you are in no position to make the statements you made. If you are basing your whole argument on a few job applications within a specific industry you are at best misguided.

Of course not all teachers are not the same, equally not all poice, nurses, pilots, chefs, cleaners or shop floor managers in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises are the same. However can you tell me how we make that judgement in teaching.
If my students obtain higher test scores than yours should I get paid more?
Will we consider the support at home the students recieve? Any underlying individual issues such as learning difficulties? The time of day the test was administered? Did the child have breakfast?
Should it be based on how much the BOT or community like me and not you?
Also if my students do not reach the required standard for me to move to a higher pay level can I blame you as the parent, for not supporting me enough as your childs teacher, and demand you compensate me.
Yes I know its sounds ridiculous but no more ridiculous than teachers recieving performce related pay, that is to anyone who has an understanding of education (and I mean education and not the education system)

[watermellon]

ukiwi. You're wasting your breath. The world's full of armchair experts who'll never actually get of their arses and do anything about, or bother to learn more about the things that piss them off.

I had one complete and utterly ******* shit day today. Eleven hours in school and a couple more ahead of me after tea (yes, we all have shit days I know). Broke up another fight. Was threatened. Spent a wasted hour chasing down colleagues for data I'm supposed to collate (that they'd f***ed up again). All in all, a shit day.

I'm not asking for a medal but just recognise that this can be one ******* thankless, hard bloody job that many of you either wouldn't touch with a barge pole or just couldn't do. I'm not even sure I can any more.

[oldrider]

I am suggesting that you are in no position to make the statements you made. If you are basing your whole argument on a few job applications within a specific industry you are at best misguided.

Of course not all teachers are not the same, equally not all poice, nurses, pilots, chefs, cleaners or shop floor managers in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises are the same. However can you tell me how we make that judgement in teaching.
If my students obtain higher test scores than yours should I get paid more?
Will we consider the support at home the students recieve? Any underlying individual issues such as learning difficulties? The time of day the test was administered? Did the child have breakfast?
Should it be based on how much the BOT or community like me and not you?
Also if my students do not reach the required standard for me to move to a higher pay level can I blame you as the parent, for not supporting me enough as your childs teacher, and demand you compensate me.
Yes I know its sounds ridiculous but no more ridiculous than teachers recieving performce related pay, that is to anyone who has an understanding of education (and I mean education and not the education system)

Lets get away from the education system and the student results, they are distractions from the real issue that I was intending to comment upon.

I base my thoughts on discussions with my sister, other relatives and friends who are school teachers by varying degrees and their expressions of dissatisfaction with their lot.

Having been involved with conditions of employment, performance and remuneration myself, there never appears to be any similar system of recognition within education.

Every time it is discussed, it invariably comes back to the fact that they are on collective contracts and with collective remuneration grades, there is no recognition or reward for individual performance.

There have been attempts to introduce bulk funding and individual employment contracts with the direct managers but it always appears to be turned down mainly by the teachers themselves.

That to me is the equivalent of a drunk defending his bottle!

Let me ask you a question, do you know personally or even know the name of the person or persons' directly involved in setting your employment conditions and remuneration?

To me that is like riding your bike from the pillion seat with your helmet on back to front, you are not in control of very important decisions governing your life!

The further away from you that these agreements are made, the further away from a satisfactory agreement the resulting contract will be!

How can you build a relationship with your direct employer (manager/ department head) if neither of you can contribute to the conditions governing the contract between you?

That is the main thrust of what I was trying to say in my post, granted I may not have used the most endearing terminology but that is what I was intending.

Employment agreements are far too important to be giving the responsibility away to unknown, lesser qualified people to decide in obscurity for equally obscure objectives!

That is the reason that I believe there are so many disgruntled school teachers just wishing there was something better for them to use their skills and training on, with clearly measured performance feedback.

Case in point, how would you like me and some other obscure, unknown person to settle your current collective contract for you, are you actually sure that I don't?

That really is my point.

Do not for a moment think that I do not appreciate the value of good teachers!

I do not however, subscribe to poor teachers receiving the same remuneration and appreciation, simply because they are on a "collective employment contract"!

[oldrider]

ukiwi. You're wasting your breath. The world's full of armchair experts who'll never actually get of their arses and do anything about, or bother to learn more about the things that piss them off.

I had one complete and utterly ******* shit day today. Eleven hours in school and a couple more ahead of me after tea (yes, we all have shit days I know). Broke up another fight. Was threatened. Spent a wasted hour chasing down colleagues for data I'm supposed to collate (that they'd f***ed up again). All in all, a shit day.

I'm not asking for a medal but just recognise that this can be one ******* thankless, hard bloody job that many of you either wouldn't touch with a barge pole or just couldn't do. I'm not even sure I can any more.

Hope things improve for you "soon".

Can you tell me how your employment at your school works? (no names or anything like that) How does the process work? Do you work for the Principal, the board etc?

Do they/you have any control/input over your agreement for conditions and/or remuneration, performance etc?

[doc]

This thread is about teacher only days. I still can't understand that with at guess, 4 x 2 week term holidays and 6 weeks at end of year. 14 weeks of the year teachers have no students . Why they need teacher only days. Cmon 70 work days off, holidays close to 100 days including weekends and they also get the stat holidays too.

[Bald Eagle]

This thread is about teacher only days. I still can't understand that with at guess, 4 x 2 week term holidays and 6 weeks at end of year. 14 weeks of the year teachers have no students . Why they need teacher only days. Cmon 70 work days off, holidays close to 100 days including weekends and they also get the stat holidays too.

You obviously know nothing about what is required to actually deliver teaching in the classroom. A general ratio of 8 hours preparation time per 1 hour of classroom delivery, plus endless admin reporting returns to govt for ncea and meetings / reporting to parents / marking etc. If you divided the actual hours worked by a teacher into their current salary they are working for well below minimum wage.

[Tank]

You obviously know nothing about what is required to actually deliver teaching in the classroom. A general ratio of 8 hours preparation time per 1 hour of classroom delivery, plus endless admin reporting returns to govt for ncea and meetings / reporting to parents / marking etc. If you divided the actual hours worked by a teacher into their current salary they are working for well below minimum wage.

I think your ratios are out - given say a 5 hour teaching day - you are saying that they need a 40 hour week to prepare for a single day. So thats 5 weeks prep for every actual week at school. Lets say they teach for 35 weeks per year - thats 210 weeks per year (including classroom delivery - and thats without the extra work you mention.

210 weeks at 40 hours per week is 8400 hours. Divide that into a 52 week year then thats 161 hours per week - given that the teachers must work 7 days a week all they have to do is work 23 hours per day (plus all the other work you mention).

I hope you dont teach maths.

[Bald Eagle]

I think your ratios are out - given say a 5 hour teaching day - you are saying that they need a 40 hour week to prepare for a single day. So thats 5 weeks prep for every actual week at school. Lets say they teach for 35 weeks per year - thats 210 weeks per year (including classroom delivery - and thats without the extra work you mention.

210 weeks at 40 hours per week is 8400 hours. Divide that into a 52 week year then thats 161 hours per week - given that the teachers must work 7 days a week all they have to do is work 23 hours per day (plus all the other work you mention).

I hope you dont teach maths.

The 8 to 1 is a general ratio only not an absolute and was intended to stress the fact that despite the popular misconception teachers are not only employed to work in a classroom for 5 hours a day with lots of lovely free time and holidays.

A comparison could be made with our judges who only sit in court a few hours a day a few days a week but receive much better remuneration. The expectation that they should be in court in session for 40 hours a week would create an outcry of epic proportions.

Or even worse if we expected our members of parliament to work "full time" :lol:

[Tank]

The 8 to 1 is a general ratio only not an absolute and was intended to stress the fact that despite the popular misconception teachers are not only employed to work in a classroom for 5 hours a day with lots of lovely free time and holidays.
:

Its not that its "not an absolute" - its that its simply inaccurate and bullshit in the extreme - as the numbers make out.

You can argue the extra work - but cannot put forward numbers as 'accepted truths' when they have no basis in fact - it diminishes your argument.

[oldrider]

You obviously know nothing about what is required to actually deliver teaching in the classroom. A general ratio of 8 hours preparation time per 1 hour of classroom delivery, plus endless admin reporting returns to govt for ncea and meetings / reporting to parents / marking etc. If you divided the actual hours worked by a teacher into their current salary they are working for well below minimum wage.

OK, everybody else is stupid and know nothing about what is required to actually deliver teaching in the class room!

Did it ever occur to you that every one of us has been a customer of that service at some time in our lives, so we do have knowledge of the quality of service provided!

However, most of us agree that teachers employment contract conditions are less than satisfactory, you guy's tell us so at every opportunity!

If it's not working for you, change it, there is always another way.

If you keep on doing the same thing and expect a different result, you are surely deluding yourselves!

The people you are paying your hard earned money to in order to negotiate your employment conditions are obviously not giving you value for money!

That would seem to me to be an appropriate place to start making some changes. :shifty:

[Squiggles]

That would seem to me to be an appropriate place to start making some changes. :shifty:

Can you imagine the bitching if they all walked out for a few weeks? Just look at the whinging here from when they take a day off for training purposes!

[watermellon]

Hope things improve for you "soon".

Can you tell me how your employment at your school works? (no names or anything like that) How does the process work? Do you work for the Principal, the board etc?

Do they/you have any control/input over your agreement for conditions and/or remuneration, performance etc?

Same collective agreement as most other teachers. Too may bosses with too many agendas. Not every day is as bad as I've painted it. Just having a shit time at the moment.

You'd be naive to believe all teachers are created equal. Some are, frankly, f*****g useless. Some and just wonderful. It comes down to how much your heart's in it and how much you can tune-out the BS.

[Love my Bonnie]

I used to moan like hell about teacher only days.....
Until I became a teacher!!

Thank god for teacher only days I say

[ukiwi]

I used to moan like hell about teacher only days.....
Until I became a teacher!!

Thank god for teacher only days I say

I guess its all about walking in another mans shoes (or womans).

I for one would welcome a performance related contract, and getting rid of teacher only days. However I can see no way of rating my own or any other teachers performance and as such can never see it even being considered and I have no say in the allocation of teacher only days, so, at the risk of making oldrider head explode, I guess I have to accept things as they are.

That said I consider myself very lucky in that I love my job and often feel my worst day at work is still a lot better than some peoples best.

[doc]

Can you imagine the bitching if they all walked out for a few weeks? Just look at the whinging here from when they take a day off for training purposes!

Fark I'm not complaining Im just trying to understand why teachers think we should be grateful that they can get timeout from the job to catch up, when most the other professions are not in the position to go to work and not actually do their job. Police and nurses for example, and they dont get as much time off as teachers do. Plus from what I understand they are on similiar salaries. FWIW I believe those jobs are undervalued . Unfortunately we live in a society that values moneylenders and ticket clippers more.

[Milts]

Unfortunately we live in a society that values moneylenders and ticket clippers more.

No. We live in an economic system that favours those with resources and market or management knowledge over those with trade skills.

[oldrider]

I for one would welcome a performance related contract, and getting rid of teacher only days. However I can see no way of rating my own or any other teachers performance and as such can never see it even being considered and I have no say in the allocation of teacher only days, so, at the risk of making oldrider head explode, I guess I have to accept things as they are.
That said I consider myself very lucky in that I love my job and often feel my worst day at work is still a lot better than some peoples best.

My head wont explode!

It's got nothing to do with me, I am finished working and have no axe to grind either way, I am only trying to give you a different point of view.

As an employer, I valued the people that worked in my area of responsibility, I could not succeed without them, so I always worked hard to build a partnership with them.

During our lives we spend (on average) one third of our lives at work, I believe it should be as enjoyable as we can make it.

I believe people should look forward to being at work each day and to be just as happy as they are in the other two thirds of their day.

We only get one shot at life and I don't let anyone fuck up my shot, so why should I fuck it up for anyone else!

Every manager should strive to be supported by the most intelligent, productive and reliable people they can find.

If all my direct reports were only as intelligent as me, I would consider myself in very deep shit!

Unfortunately there are some managers (especially in NZ) who don't understand the value in that!

In my humble experience, the closer the "empowerment" of the manager/employee relationship, the stronger and more productive that relationship bond will be.

People thrive on trust and responsibility, the more you give them the hungrier (and happier) they are for more!

The best way for them to get more is by working smarter and the more they apply themselves to the job, the smarter they get and the more valuable they become.

Tangible value of contribution to the agreed goals of the business or service should be reflected in remuneration.

Individual employment contracts between manager and employee are the best way of expressing the value of that relationship to the realisation of the stated goals of governance of the business or service involved.

Individual employment contracts are not anti union, every employee has the right to be represented by whoever they wish!

If the employee does not have the confidence and capability to represent themselves, I would provide the training to bring them up to the requirements, after which I would expect them to have and to exercise that skill base.

Why would I employ someone to represent and make decisions for the company,when they can't do it for themselves!

If that sounds scary, then it is, nobody ever said life should be easy but it should be enjoyable and rewarding!

Sound like Utopia? Sure, why not?

I think schools and schoolteachers should be excellent candidates for "empowered" individual employment contracts and every post I read or conversation I have with them convinces me how desperately they need a change!

Just my personal opinion, nothing more or less. :mellow:

[scracha]

Have the teachers not got enough time to do this on other than school days. Mind you, I suppose they only get about 12 weeks holiday a year and are only actually teaching 5 hours a day!!!
Funny how many experts there are on Teaching that have never set foot on the coalface.

5 hours teaching != 5 hours work.

I suppose you also think Valentino Rossi only works 54 days a year?

[rapid van cleef]

'Fark I'm not complaining Im just trying to understand why teachers think we should be grateful that they can get timeout from the job to catch up, when most the other professions are not in the position to go to work and not actually do their job. Police and nurses for example, and they dont get as much time off as teachers do. Plus from what I understand they are on similiar salaries. FWIW I believe those jobs are undervalued . Unfortunately we live in a society that values moneylenders and ticket clippers more'....


time off?

i work through every morning break and through every lunchtime and usually dont leave school til around 5 pm. then i ll spend time doing school prep etc at home in the evenings and weekends. usually have stuff going on in school at weekends too.

teachers do not get paid for running extra curricular groups, what ever they maybe. then theres at least half of all holidays working

those that have not done the job, will never know..simple as that

[ukiwi]

Oldrider, your opinion is your opinion, however when you make the statements that you made without any knowledge or experience of the profession you were targeting your opinion is worthless.
Now before you release a torrent of blow hard bollocks about opinions being a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty, understand this. You can have an opinion regrding individual contracts and performance related blah blah blah, what you shouldnt do is acuse a group of hard working professional people of not having the balls or itelligence to handle their own affairs and as such should not be entrusted with the role they have.
If you are seriously concerned about your grandchildren homeschool them, see how easy it really is.

[oldrider]

Oldrider, your opinion is your opinion, however when you make the statements that you made without any knowledge or experience of the profession you were targeting your opinion is worthless.
Now before you release a torrent of blow hard bollocks about opinions being a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty, understand this. You can have an opinion regrding individual contracts and performance related blah blah blah, what you shouldnt do is acuse a group of hard working professional people of not having the balls or itelligence to handle their own affairs and as such should not be entrusted with the role they have.
If you are seriously concerned about your grandchildren homeschool them, see how easy it really is.

This is all getting a bit emotional and you are right, it doesn't really concern me, except that all the information most of us have about you guy's and your working conditions comes directly from yourselves!

You never stop grizzling about how hard done by you are and how intelligent you have to be and how under appreciated you are etc etc etc!

I offered a solution based on information given to me by the people who own the problem, nothing more, nothing less, thank you for the lesson on how to cry wolf! :mellow:

[rapid van cleef]

it wasnt teachers that started this thread. and we have not been saying oh how horrible our jobs are. simply stating facts. if no - one made a misguided or i ll - infomed comment, i doubt anyone would have said anything to put em right by telling them how it is. we know hor difficult it is. i dont go home and tell me wife how hard me job is. i love it. it just boils my piss when people that dont know what they are talking about make damming statements

[oldrider]

it wasnt teachers that started this thread. and we have not been saying oh how horrible our jobs are. simply stating facts. if no - one made a misguided or i ll - infomed comment, i doubt anyone would have said anything to put em right by telling them how it is. we know hor difficult it is. i dont go home and tell me wife how hard me job is. i love it. it just boils my piss when people that dont know what they are talking about make damming statements

The point is, some of us believed you and thought you really do have employment contract condition problems but if everything is OK, I for one, withdraw my concern! :confused:

[MikeL]

Secondary school teachers' contracts are being negotiated at the moment. The PPTA is asking for a modest increase in salaries that will mean teachers at least keep up with inflation. The government has put forward several unacceptable proposals affecting working conditions, e.g. removing stated hours of work, making extracurricular compulsory) but has steadfastly refused to talk about salaries.
Here's my prediction:
The unacceptable proposals will be dropped in return for a nil salary round. If PPTA demurs, the government will start mentioning Greece, Spain, Portugal... and teachers will feel relieved that they have not had their salaries decreased by 5 or 10%...
The government will be happy because they have not only saved money but delivered a blow to a union that has always been a thorn in their flesh, the public will be happy because they think teachers are over-paid layabouts who have all those holidays and cause serious inconvenience to working parents by having a couple of training days a year and thus ignoring their responsibilities as babysitters, and if teachers are not happy they can always quit or move overseas, and their jobs can be filled by cheap imports from India and Sri Lanka...

[oldrider]

The government will be happy because they have not only saved money but delivered a blow to a union that has always been a thorn in their flesh,


the public will be happy because they think teachers are over-paid layabouts who have all those holidays and cause serious inconvenience to working parents by having a couple of training days a year and thus ignoring their responsibilities as babysitters,


and if teachers are not happy they can always quit or move overseas, and their jobs can be filled by cheap imports from India and Sri Lanka...

Then again, it could also end up a bit like this. (if I was going to comment on your post)

I really don't think any government of any persuasion are really bothered about this union. (unless you ask the union its self of course)

The public "misconception" has probably been brought about from comments and behaviours of the "lesser" performers of your "collective", unfortunately equality also means equal responsibility!

A collective reduces all of it's members down to the lowest common denominator! (mediocrity at best)

If teachers were on individual employment contracts, the higher performers (good teachers) could be higher paid, probably be happy and most likely to stay!

The poorer performers would be unhappy and leave the country and be replaced by "higher performing" imports from India and Sri Lanka! (or anywhere else where high performing teachers reside)

"Everyone" would then most likely be happy for a change!

[MikeL]

I think you're wrong about governments' attitude towards PPTA (and NZEI). I've been involved on and off in secondary teaching since the 70s and over much of this period it's been quite clear, particularly in pay negotiations, that the unions have wielded too much control for the liking of most governments. In recent years with union power generally declining, these 2 have remained relatively strong. There's no doubt the present government would love to break them.
As for public misconception, this attitude has been around for ever; it's true that the existence of mediocre teachers does nothing to counter it, but the "comments and behaviours" of these members of the profession are no more prominent than the comments and behaviours of equally incompetent office managers or builders or financial advisors or immigration consultants or whatever. But teachers continue to get stick and much of it is simple uninformed prejudice: "Those who can do, those who can't, teach."
I personally have nothing against individual employment contracts. I am no longer a member of the PPTA, for reasons which have nothing to do with the principle of unionism in general. As has been stated elsewhere, the problem with assessing teacher performance is a thorny one. I don't say it can't be done, but those who clamour for it usually insist on a quick, simple andcheap way of doing it, which will lead inevitably to injustices. I can imagine a way in which it could work, but it would be neither quick, simple nor cheap.
Your comment about "higher performing" imports from foreign countries makes me despair. You assume that teaching is a simple technocratic business to which simple economic principles can be applied. This is the same thinking that is seeing this country being sold off, bit by bit, to overseas interests, our autonomy diminished and our cultural identity imperilled. Do you think that it is a good thing for our young people to be taught by those for whom English is a second language and the history and traditions and culture of this country are simply something to be recited from a textbook?

[oldrider]

I think you're wrong about governments' attitude towards PPTA (and NZEI). I've been involved on and off in secondary teaching since the 70s and over much of this period it's been quite clear, particularly in pay negotiations, that the unions have wielded too much control for the liking of most governments. In recent years with union power generally declining, these 2 have remained relatively strong. There's no doubt the present government would love to break them.
As for public misconception, this attitude has been around for ever; it's true that the existence of mediocre teachers does nothing to counter it, but the "comments and behaviours" of these members of the profession are no more prominent than the comments and behaviours of equally incompetent office managers or builders or financial advisors or immigration consultants or whatever. But teachers continue to get stick and much of it is simple uninformed prejudice: "Those who can do, those who can't, teach."
I personally have nothing against individual employment contracts. I am no longer a member of the PPTA, for reasons which have nothing to do with the principle of unionism in general. As has been stated elsewhere, the problem with assessing teacher performance is a thorny one. I don't say it can't be done, but those who clamour for it usually insist on a quick, simple andcheap way of doing it, which will lead inevitably to injustices. I can imagine a way in which it could work, but it would be neither quick, simple nor cheap.
Your comment about "higher performing" imports from foreign countries makes me despair. You assume that teaching is a simple technocratic business to which simple economic principles can be applied. This is the same thinking that is seeing this country being sold off, bit by bit, to overseas interests, our autonomy diminished and our cultural identity imperilled. Do you think that it is a good thing for our young people to be taught by those for whom English is a second language and the history and traditions and culture of this country are simply something to be recited from a textbook?

I agree with many things you say but if something is not working, then to change it means doing something different, not just for different sake but hopefully smarter.

Unfortunately in NZ where "performance" payments do exist, they appear to be mismanaged and bonuses are paid to those who have patently failed to earn them.

Of course in their own defence they then label their critics as having no idea what it's all about, in the same way that teachers react to their critics!

Frankly, whether the contract is collective or individual, is of little consequence, it is the will and skill of the participants to work together to honour the agreement and determination to earn each other's mutual respect that makes it successful.

When we discuss these things it is too easy to set ones mind into a certain camp, assume too much of what the other intends and miss the point completely, we all seem to be guilty of this unfortunately.

I have had the good fortune to have experienced extreme changes in industrial relationships and have also had the opportunity to personally move the change and experience near utopian results.

I love to see people happy in their work and truly developing to be the best that they can be in their lives, it is extremely infectious and once experienced nothing else is acceptable.

It frustrates me to see so many unhappy work places in this country and I have formed the opinion (having spent considerable time in both camps) that strong unions are an indicator of even poorer management!

I don't really profess to have the answers to teachers problems but am simply trying to point out that if you do not do something different, don't expect any change.

It does get tiresome hearing or reading the same old complaints over and over from people with all the intelligence and skills required to change the problem, so one simply assumes it must be exacerbated by a lack of will in the complainants.

"It's a funny thing about life, if you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it". Somerset Maugham.