what if you.....

[ajturbo]

i was asked a question the other day by ... someone who will remain unnamed!

Question:

this person has started a new job, likes it a lot, he thinks everything is going great untill oneday he was called into the office for a "chat" with the bosses... things were said that were hard for him to repeat, he was apart from other things, he was told that there was a thought that he was stelling from the job!!!
no-one was named as the accuser!!

now i know this person very well and i know for a fact that he hasn't done anything like that.

what do you think he shopuld do?
1. walk out?... very temping.
2.do nothing as they have no proof ... as there is no proof....
3. punch the boss in the mouth so the cops do have something to do?very very tempting
4. pinch something to prove them right?

[Virago]

i was asked a question the other day by ... someone who will remain unnamed!

Question:

this person has started a new job, likes it a lot, he thinks everything is going great untill oneday he was called into the office for a "chat" with the bosses... things were said that were hard for him to repeat, he was apart from other things, he was told that there was a thought that he was stelling from the job!!!
no-one was named as the accuser!!

now i know this person very well and i know for a fact that he hasn't done anything like that.

what do you think he shopuld do?
1. walk out?... very temping.
2.do nothing as they have no proof ... as there is no proof....
3. punch the boss in the mouth so the cops do have something to do?very very tempting
4. pinch something to prove them right?

Or 5. None of the above.

If the person is innocent, they need to follow it through. Ask for the complaint to be put in writing. Seek help from a employment relations agent. Then start counting the $$$$$, as it looks like a winning personal grievance claim to me.

[gamgee]

and if they say something like we've got video footage, call there bluff and ask to see it, if they won't show it to you, just say something about there not being a vid because he never did it

[ajturbo]

Or 5. None of the above.

If the person is innocent, they need to follow it through. Ask for the complaint to be put in writing. Seek help from a employment relations agent. Then start counting the $$$$$, as it looks like a winning personal grievance claim to me.

ok... but this guy is on a contract...slef employed... (contract yet to be signed) don't think it will be offered now.....
oh and nothing in writing....

[SuperDave]

I would go for a combination of all four. Pinch something big and sturdy, walk into the boss' office and bash the shit outa him with it. Then walk out and do nothing.

*Shruggs* Discuss it with the boss in a professional and suitable manner?

[Big Dave]

I'd walk. Probably knock the water cooler over on my way out. FTS.

[Slingshot]

So this person must work in a motorcycle shop...what kind of bike were they meant to have stolen?







That's the reason you've posted in the "General biker ravings" forum and not the "Rave on" forum right???

[ajturbo]

So this person must work in a motorcycle shop...what kind of bike were they meant to have stolen?







That's the reason you've posted in the "General biker ravings" forum and not the "Rave on" forum right???


ummmm errr. .wellllll ..... ...shit

can you change it?:thud: :brick:

[Ms Piggy]

Tell your friend to have an informal chat with the employment tribunal.

[Slingshot]

ummmm errr. .wellllll ..... ...shit

can you change it?:thud: :brick:


Nope...I was just taking the piss anyway.

[Skunk]

Tell your friend to have an informal chat with the employment tribunal.Best advice I've seen so far. Does it work for self employed though?

[Ms Piggy]

Best advice I've seen so far. Does it work for self employed though?
That I don't know to be honest.

[Ms Piggy]

http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/law/case/

[zadok]

I'm with V=V on this one.
Come straight out and sort the problem out. If the person didn't do anything wrong, then they can confidently confront the issue without any guilt.

Marty :ride:

[Virago]

Best advice I've seen so far. Does it work for self employed though?
Your mate needs to look at the wider picture. As a self-employed contractor, he has a reputation to uphold. Rumours spread fast, especially in a smaller town. If he walks away from this with his tail between his legs, the rumour mill will follow him.

I'm self-employed, working in the building inspection and fire safety field. I have a relationship with my clients based on trust. I have keys for half my client's buildings.

If I was accused of stealing from one of them, even casually, I would follow this through to prove my innocence. My reputation would rely on sorting out the situation.

Perhaps your mate is in a similar position? If he's innocent, walking away would be a mistake.

[Big Dave]

If he's innocent, walking away would be a mistake.

Yes, you are quite correct and 'tis good advice - however, I'm self employed for exactly the same reasons I'd still walk, FTS, goodbye and kiss ma arse. And that's my reputation.

[Lou Girardin]

If he's self-employed and without a signed contract, he's basically stuffed. I think his only option is to demand to see evidence of the theft. If none is forthcoming, he should get a solicitors letter warning them of the consequences of slander.
Whatever happens, it sounds like he'll be job hunting.

[hondacmx450]

If he's self-employed and without a signed contract, he's basically stuffed. I think his only option is to demand to see evidence of the theft. If none is forthcoming, he should get a solicitors letter warning them of the consequences of slander.
Whatever happens, it sounds like he'll be job hunting.



i think that is a good ider then in a little while burn there bilding down with them in it :mad:

[eliot-ness]

Not clear about the contract/self employed description. If he is self empoyed the fact that he has started work means that there is there is an agreement, verbal or otherwise. Verbal agreements are legally binding on both parties.
If you are referring to the normal contract of employment it is usual to have a three week trial period for the employers to assess suitability for the job. (makes it easier to fire anyone unsuitable)
Slander. (legal) An oral statement which without due cause has the result, or is intended to have the result, of bringing it's subject into direpute. (Webster's dictionary.)
(1) A letter from a lawyer could have the result of bringing his accusers into the open.
(2) He could see WINZ. They have a department to sort out these issues.
Whichever path he takes I think the employer has made the job untenable. Unlawful dismissal may apply.
Hope this helps.

[Lou Girardin]

Not clear about the contract/self employed description. If he is self empoyed the fact that he has started work means that there is there is an agreement, verbal or otherwise. Verbal agreements are legally binding on both parties.
If you are referring to the normal contract of employment it is usual to have a three week trial period for the employers to assess suitability for the job. (makes it easier to fire anyone unsuitable)
Slander. (legal) An oral statement which without due cause has the result, or is intended to have the result, of bringing it's subject into direpute. (Webster's dictionary.)
(1) A letter from a lawyer could have the result of bringing his accusers into the open.
(2) He could see WINZ. They have a department to sort out these issues.
Whichever path he takes I think the employer has made the job untenable. Unlawful dismissal may apply.
Hope this helps.


An expert, tells me that the trial employment period has no real standing in law. Dismissal provisions still apply. And verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on.
Basically, self-employed people are not protected by employment law. Why else are employers so keen to contract out.

[Phurrball]

Hmmm, not good, not good...

I take it that the 'chat' with the bosses was an informal one, with no warning of the content?

If the powers that be have 'anything' on your mate, they need to put any allegations formally in writing, and stump up with any evidence they have. Any dealings between the employer and employee need to be substantively AND procedurally fair (ie follow proper warning process and procedures set out in contract - should be some guidelines if verbal, what clauses are typically in that employers contracts etc...) Some sensible advice so far in this thread - the Employment Relations people should be able to provide assistance, another option that is low-cost is to see if there is a community law centre in your area, who may be able to help.

In any further formal dealings with the employer, your friend has a right to take a support person along. This can be someone who can step in and advocate if the going gets heavy, or just a mean looking 6'4" biker mate who can look tough (I'm sure that there'd be plenty of volunteeers on this site :msn-wink: ) It's a raw deal if you're in a meeting with more than one boss eyeballing you all by you lonesome, slinging all sorts of accusations, so a support person can be very helpful as a witness/advocate/notetaker.

People are quite right in suggesting that a contractor is quite a different kettle of fish...and not so good from your mate's perspective. The presumption for a contractor is that both parties are on a more 'equal' bargaining footing - regardless of whether this is the case...Depending on the sort of work, and especially if nothing is yet signed, and there is no clear intention that he is to be a contractor, the relationship may be more of an employment nature - this can be a grey area in some jobs, so check out the situation here. (Again employment relations people are probably helpful here)

Good luck, I suggest your mate get some advice from a reputable source (Even though KB is a pretty good 'bush law' advice service! Advice needn't necessarily be from an employment lawyer). The situation as described sounds like one of unjustifiable disadvantage worth following up on.

[ManDownUnder]

A couple of things... pass this on to your friend

1) Your diary is your friend. Don't tell everyone you're keeping it - just do it. Times places and comments made... and by whom. Copy of any docs too. Looking back over time things get out of order, very confusing etc... and if any other additional docs/evidence shows up later on you have a context to put it in.
2) Turn things around on the boss. Get a written outline of the problem, and what's been said. Them OFFER TO HELP FIND THEM
3) Get the police involved. They should be (from what I've read and understand) and if that's the case... ask your boss to do it.If they are not involved - ask for an outline of the reason why not... in writing. If you don;t get that - escalate it... again - in writing.

If you are innocent there is nothing to lose on this one, and in fact it's quite a reasonable thing to do. You help your boss - and YOU HELP YOU.

* Ask if there is anything that you can clarify.
* Confirm this is a concern to you - you know it isn't you but can understand that's not what your boss thinks, and that having that meeting wasn't an easy thing to do - so it must be serious.
* Set up a weekly update meeting - stay interested. You should - it's your name with mud on it.
* Escalate it if you need to. If your boss has something in for you then taking it above his/her head will instill an amount of balance, it will make sure your voice is being heard directly above them, and it's NOT something a guilty person would do. Ideally escalate it with the bosses knowledge - i.e. put something in writing, send it above your bossese head and put your boss on cc.

Make it plain you're not hiding anything, you would like the Police involved and that you wish to expose what is going on. The reason for escalating it is that you see it as a very serious issue in which you find your self caught. The facts (as presented so far) don't look good and you'd appreciate access to any incriminating evidence so you are able to assist further.

In short - be the good guy, keep notes (cover your butt), take it very seriously, open it up to public/senior scrutiny and demonstrate an eagerness to resolve this.

good luck - and if I can offer any more tips... PM me
MDU

[Big Dave]

And verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on.


Consider that STOLEN.

[FROSTY]

I agree with the above post. Your mate needs to be proactive.Suggest police involvement and anything else they can do to assist the company.

[Oakie]

ok... but this guy is on a contract...slef employed... (contract yet to be signed) don't think it will be offered now.....
oh and nothing in writing....

Something that does need to be confirmed is the true relationship of the 'accused' and the 'accuser'. Don't take it for granted that it is a 'principal & contractor' arrangement. Some unscrupulous employers call their relationships that although they should really be 'employer / employee'. If it can be shown that it should really have been an 'employer / employee' relationship then the Employment Relations Act can come into play and procedural fairness has to be evident. I know you said he is self employed but it would be handy just to test the relationship:
>Can your friend plan when to do the work or is he told what to do?
>Is he responsible for paying his own tax and ACC levies?
>Does he charge GST and claim it?
>Does he provide the equipment and location for the job or does the 'employer'

If there is a chance it should be an 'employer / employee' relationship' feel free to PM me. I deal a bit with Employment Legislation in my job.

Apart from that, your friend should follow other advice that has been given already. Take notes of everything that transpires and if suspected theft is involved, insist the police become involved and ask why if the 'employer' is unwilling to do so.

[250learna]

Or 5. None of the above.

If the person is innocent, they need to follow it through. Ask for the complaint to be put in writing. Seek help from a employment relations agent. Then start counting the $$$$$, as it looks like a winning personal grievance claim to me.

yeah i like your thinking :devil2:

[Lou Girardin]

Consider that STOLEN.

It's older than I am. Copyright ran out years ago, consider it yours.

[Wolf]

One workplace I was at years ago, I got called into a staff member's office and told I had been accused of stealing drinks when I was working the bar at the social club (voluntary bar duty as social club commitee member.) Apparently "witnesses" (unspecified) had seen me do it. I was given a "warning". I was also told that my actions called the Social Club into disrepute.

I then wrote letters to said staff member and the Pres of the Social Club requesting details of the accusations and proof that I had stolen drinks, asked that my accusers make themselves known and detail what they allegedly saw etc. Asked for a proper account of the bar's stock and takings that night - none of which was ever forthcoming. I asked that if evidence of wrong doing could not be furnished, I should get an apology for the slander against my reputation. That wasn't forthcoming either.

Funnily enough, a few months down the track, my boss contacted me and urgently instructed me to suspend computer access to the employee who had accused me of theft and not reinstate it. Said employee was later that day escorted from the premises by security guards - he had obtained his job through the use of fraudulent qualifications and someone had finally done a background check.

After being unjustly accused by him and treated like crap, I took great delight in closing his account and greater delight in learning he'd been sacked and charged with fraud.

[inlinefour]

I reckon there probably is someone flogging stuff, but its someone else. Your friend is just being used as a target as he is the new guy...

[Monsterbishi]

As above, On the first opportunity he has, he needs to give them a letter demanding signed copies of all and any evidence and/or testimony that they have against him, under threat of legal action.

Even though he may only be a trial basis, even if there isin't a single piece of paper that resembles a contract, he has rights guarding him against defamation - for those of us who live by our reputations, unwarranted slander can mean the end of a business that's taken years to build.

[Rainbow Wizard]

An expert, tells me that the trial employment period has no real standing in law. Dismissal provisions still apply. And verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on.
Basically, self-employed people are not protected by employment law. Why else are employers so keen to contract out.
Surely he must then be by default, an employee; and the employer is breaking the law by not having a written contract! Law's gotta be on your mates side surely. If not then the lawyer's letter is the way to go, civil suit stuff - damages and the like.

[ManDownUnder]

As above, On the first opportunity he has, he needs to give them a letter demanding signed copies of all and any evidence and/or testimony that they have against him, under threat of legal action.

Even though he may only be a trial basis, even if there isin't a single piece of paper that resembles a contract, he has rights guarding him against defamation - for those of us who live by our reputations, unwarranted slander can mean the end of a business that's taken years to build.

At the risk of being pedantic - use "request" in place of "demand". It'll change the whole tone of the thing, make them less offside etc. Of course you need to follow it up and it's an item you can put on the weekly meetings agenda.

Just make sure the Police get involved as soon as possible. They'll be more independant than the employer and your inviting them to the party will speak volumes to the employer... and put whoever actually is telling porkies on notice.

Don't get vindictive - this is your chance to come out looking like the white knight... proving your employer was wrong to accuse you, that you are cool and calm under pressure etc... they're likely to appreciate it in the long run unless there is the alterior motive of simply wanting to get rid of you.

MDU

[ManDownUnder]

Why else are employers so keen to contract out.

Because in NZ it's hard to dismiss staff without very good reason... one of which is you going to the wall financially.

If I have someone on contract their contract would end LONG before I ever went broke - I'd be an idiot to comtract out work to someone to the point where I knew my cashflow/bank balance was in peril

[Beemer]

I'd certainly be wanting the allegations brought out into the open and resolved or the mud will definitely stick to your friend. If he walks and the thieving continues, do you think they're going to ring him and say "whoops, sorry, looks like it wasn't you after all?" No way! He needs to know exactly what he is being accused of and by whom, and if they can't provide that detail, I would be advising them that if the allegations continue, or if my contract was suspended without any proof of wrongdoing on my part, I would be suing them for defamation.

As for verbal contracts, they can be enforced. I went after a job as an editor of a weekly newspaper years ago and was called on the Friday afternoon to say the job was mine and given a starting date. I was at Manfeild that weekend for a Stay Upright course so turned my mobile off while doing the theory session that night. When I turned it on again, there was a message from the woman who had offered me the job, saying they had made a mistake and they couldn't actually afford to employ me! I was (and still am, for this very reason) a member of the union so they contacted her and told her it was a breach of contract and she would have to pay me at least four weeks salary in compensation. Sure, I still didn't have the job, but at least I had the satisfaction of making her pay me for nothing!

[ajturbo]

my mate wishes me to pass on a great big thanks for all the CONSTRUCTIVE advice on this matter, i can tell you all that he is still very upset by the whole thing, also tomorrow is the end of his months trial, he has told me that ALL the customes cannot speek to highly of his workmanship, HONESTY in dealling with them and his naturel charm..(think he is blowing his own trumpet on that one ..hahahaha)

andy

[gav]

So what'd ya nick? :D

[ajturbo]

So what'd ya nick? :D

i feel like ..woops i mean my mate..... feels like taking their van and driving off to Matata and hope for a wee bit of rain:whistle: ...:killingme

[ajturbo]

I'd certainly be wanting the allegations brought out into the open and resolved or the mud will definitely stick to your friend. If he walks and the thieving continues, do you think they're going to ring him and say "whoops, sorry, looks like it wasn't you after all?" No way! He needs to know exactly what he is being accused of and by whom, and if they can't provide that detail, I would be advising them that if the allegations continue, or if my contract was suspended without any proof of wrongdoing on my part, I would be suing them for defamation.

As for verbal contracts, they can be enforced. I went after a job as an editor of a weekly newspaper years ago and was called on the Friday afternoon to say the job was mine and given a starting date. I was at Manfeild that weekend for a Stay Upright course so turned my mobile off while doing the theory session that night. When I turned it on again, there was a message from the woman who had offered me the job, saying they had made a mistake and they couldn't actually afford to employ me! I was (and still am, for this very reason) a member of the union so they contacted her and told her it was a breach of contract and she would have to pay me at least four weeks salary in compensation. Sure, I still didn't have the job, but at least I had the satisfaction of making her pay me for nothing!

hahahha.... sounds like a job i got a few years ago... then got a letter saying i didn't.. i didn't push the issue as i was the wrong colour...................and they would have just reclaimed it back some other way...:whistle:

[texmo]

Same thing happened to a firend he shurgged it off until they fired im he took them to court sued them for defomation, firing him with out proof and a few other things he got $15k out of it.

[ajturbo]

I reckon there probably is someone flogging stuff, but its someone else. Your friend is just being used as a target as he is the new guy...

no they are pointing the finger at ...my "mate" seams he has been booking stuf up and not using it all..... see where this is going..... but my "mate" just said, have they looked in my work van yet??? anything he didn't use is in there!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

fuck em!!!

[ajturbo]

Same thing happened to a firend he shurgged it off until they fired im he took them to court sued them for defomation, firing him with out proof and a few other things he got $15k out of it.

mmmmm me thinks my "mate " may just go and see someone... $$$$ that'll piss them off... but i don't think there is much hope ... the boss is a lady and has chosen her works VERY carefully........:no:

[ManDownUnder]

mmmmm me thinks my "mate " may just go and see someone... $$$$ that'll piss them off... but i don't think there is much hope ... the boss is a lady and has chosen her works VERY carefully........:no:

If they are in writing - I'd lopve to see them (PM or email if poss).

I like picking holes in words... call it a hobby...

Course if you want to let it lie I respect that too - it's easy for me - it's not really my battle...
MDU

[ajturbo]

If they are in writing - I'd lopve to see them (PM or email if poss).

I like picking holes in words... call it a hobby...

Course if you want to let it lie I respect that too - it's easy for me - it's not really my battle...
MDU

WILL do!!!
I wanted to finish the job i started and the boss said yes... so nice of her eh... but i have done all the hard work ... sanding etc .. and for someone else to come in and do the easy stuff ....... make it look good...... stuff them!!

but the lady also wants her windows done inside....... and i'm such a nice man, she may just want me to paint them for her..... and not the "other " team...:devil2: