Pre89 Senior YSS Suspension FZR1000, Vic R1

[codgyoleracer]

Race debut for the YSS suspended Yamaha Fzr 1000, (aka the GW01) .

Practice in the wet was dodgy as , and oil trails were still apparent from a spill from the test day the day before., meant that tentaive speed was the call of the day but was still good enough to start from pole.

Race one , got a crap start after discovering that FZR1000 hydraulic cluthes are a tad touchy, but got into the laead by passing Stephen Mossman (on another FZR1000) on the first lap. The track was still damp into turn one, and into / thru Higgens, so some care still needed. Put head down for a couple of laps & got a gap from Mossey , to secure a win.

We made a change to the front fork height thru the clamps for the second race and also a compression stack revalve in the YSS rear shock. This was to improve turn in and also to gain some more rear traction (hopefully). it mostly worked and we went a little bit quicker in the second race, and managed to get another win.

Really enjoyed riding the old girl and must say that the new suspension worked darned well, & was a big improvement over the stock set up. Plenty of room for improvement as well which is positive also.

Was excellent to meet up with a heap of the Pre89 Junior and Senior guys and girls. A great bunch of people!

Glen Williams

[nzkr1]

Perhaps you need to take some lessons on starts with Ernie Cubby, he had a demon start in the second race.....

[Clivoris]

Love your work man. Way to keep pre89 nice and fresh.

[Deano]

The bike looks awesome and results to match !

[Peter Smith]

Very impressive lap times for your first meeting and on a damp track.
Well done, but don't get too much faster OK.

[mossy1200]

Be aware glen ill have secret weapon for round 2 AKA towrope.You may still win but not by much.

[ktm]

What is yss suspension?

[gixerracer]

OLD CRAP just like codgy

[wharfy]

I got to watch you from the infield, looked and sounded very cool exiting turn one. Well done !!

[codgyoleracer]

What is yss suspension?

Its a brand that W Whites of Hamilton are now bringing in and offering through thier distributers nationwide. They have a wide range of rear and front suspension systems to suit most bikes. There high end range that i have fitted seemed to work quite well and the bike was handling nicely throughout the full race.
They can custom build for each rider / bike combo and use as well.
Glen

[codgyoleracer]

OLD CRAP just like codgy

Haha - You forgot to say Slow as well

[schrodingers cat]

Interested to know what you've fitted to the bike? Just rear shock or emulators as well?
I don't race so PM me if you'd rather not tell the world

Also a ballpark $$$$$ figure (retail)

[Robert Taylor]

Interested to know what you've fitted to the bike? Just rear shock or emulators as well?
I don't race so PM me if you'd rather not tell the world

Also a ballpark $$$$$ figure (retail)

Ohlins rear shocks for these ( these are the REAL DEAL ) are $1599.90 gst incl or $1699.90 if a ride height adjuster is added at the point of sale. All components are made in Sweden and Germany and are of the very highest quality and function. Custom build has been a feature with this product in NZ for decades and backup exceeds allcomers / newcomers by a huge margin. Great settings for road and great settings for race. Ohlins are the absolute masters of suspension and that is why you will see that product on almost all the MOTOgp, WSBK bikes etc. The price is higher than the cheap pretenders but in real terms not that much higher and they are in high demand secondhand.

Emulators, there is one original brand and several knockoffs that are both dissappointing in quality / longevity and function. RACE TECH brand emulators are the genuine original product and the very best, will not over time deposit chards of alloy into the damping flow circuit and have more tuning options. $349.90 gst incl. Again that is more expensive than the cheap pretenders, quality costs but so do cheap options in the medium to long term.

There are manufacturers that strive to make something that is better ( not always so common ) and those that strive to make something cheaper. Cheaper almost always means quality and function compromises.

There are other manufacturers that are innovators and the three very best brands fall into that category, Penske, WP and Ohlins. No-one else comes close.

[schrodingers cat]

Thanks Robert,
I am well aware of your product and the service you offer.
Thanks for the 'sell' but it wasn't you I was asking sorry.

Disappointing for you that the world isn't queueing solely at your door but 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'

Cheers

[gixerracer]

just ignore robert he is a nob
Thanks Robert,
I am well aware of your product and the service you offer.
Thanks for the 'sell' but it wasn't you I was asking sorry.

Disappointing for you that the world isn't queueing solely at your door but 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'

Cheers

[nzkr1]

Thanks Robert,
I am well aware of your product and the service you offer.
Thanks for the 'sell' but it wasn't you I was asking sorry.

Disappointing for you that the world isn't queueing solely at your door but 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'

Cheers

Well said, who does he think he is this RT. Probably thinks he's going to miss out on a sale. Best you get hold of Kerry Dukic, he's the MAN with the suspension know how.

[codgyoleracer]

Interested to know what you've fitted to the bike? Just rear shock or emulators as well?
I don't race so PM me if you'd rather not tell the world

Also a ballpark $$$$$ figure (retail)

Hi Mate
Yeah we fitted a custom built X506-TRCL rear unit, which is one of their higher spec shocks & inc ride height adjuster etc. The price was $1149 inc gst and also includes a custom spring and comp / reb valve setting to suit your wieght / bike & riding or racing choices. If the first setting isnt right then when sourced through Dukic Suspension they will revalve / re-spring FOC until satisfied. Dukic turned up at the track to dial my one for me on a test day & we made real good progress.
We had YSS PD Valves in the front end + a set of slightly heavier springs to help eliminate some of the FZR spongeness for track use.
Cheers for the question
Glen Williams

[Rcktfsh]

just ignore robert he is a nob

Compression or Rebound?


Well said, who does he think he is this RT. Probably thinks he's going to miss out on a sale. Best you get hold of Kerry Dukic, he's the MAN with the suspension know how.

Well pointed out KR1 I'm sure all the riders he's led astray over the years from Stroudy, Bugden, Shirrifs and the like to club racers will appreciate your insightfull advice.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks Robert,
I am well aware of your product and the service you offer.
Thanks for the 'sell' but it wasn't you I was asking sorry.

Disappointing for you that the world isn't queueing solely at your door but 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'

Cheers

No certainly each to their own and having one of the very top products ( chosen by the best racers and many discerning road riders ) we cannot compete on price with the more cheaply made products. People think the price of our product is way up there ( which it actually isnt in most cases ) I was just illustrating whats possible with such a product and there are some well known issues with some of the cheaper products. With the said cheaper product we have removed 3 sets recently because the customers were highly dissatisfied with them.
Id prefer that people are not confused into thinking a product is better than it actually is, the strength of a product is not solely measured if one very top racer is using it to an ok standard, its also if a lot of other ordinary everyday customers are satisfied. That the jury is very much not in agreement on.
We also have 25 years of experience to back up our products.

[codgyoleracer]

No certainly each to their own and having one of the very top products ( chosen by the best racers and many discerning road riders ) we cannot compete on price with the more cheaply made products. People think the price of our product is way up there ( which it actually isnt in most cases ) I was just illustrating whats possible with such a product and there are some well known issues with some of the cheaper products. With the said cheaper product we have removed 3 sets recently because the customers were highly dissatisfied with them.
Id prefer that people are not confused into thinking a product is better than it actually is, the strength of a product is not solely measured if one very top racer is using it to an ok standard, its also if a lot of other ordinary everyday customers are satisfied. That the jury is very much not in agreement on.
We also have 25 years of experience to back up our products.

I certainly have no doubt about the performance and the excellent service that Robert Taylor and the team at CKT provide folks, His gear and advice is as good as anyones out there IMO. I have also been pleasantly surprised though by the initial performance of the YSS equipment and also the product support services provided by long standing industry supplier W Whites of Hamilton (the importer) and their technical support person Kerry at Dukic Suspenion in Wellywood.

[PeeJay]

With the said cheaper product we have removed 3 sets recently because the customers were highly dissatisfied with them.


Are you referring to YSS shocks as the "said cheaper product" ?

[steveyb]

Is there a can of worms emoticon on here anywhere?

[Robert Taylor]

Are you referring to YSS shocks as the "said cheaper product" ?

I think thats pretty obvious. It happens in all industries and its just the same in this industry. If people start passing off cheaper products as being just as good as the top products ( in the motorcycle suspension world being WP, Penske, Ohlins ) then they will be deluding both themselves and their customers.
There is a place for cheaper products but they should never be in any way misrepresented as being better than what they actually are. That is my point and I think its a fair one.

[Robert Taylor]

Well said, who does he think he is this RT. Probably thinks he's going to miss out on a sale. Best you get hold of Kerry Dukic, he's the MAN with the suspension know how.

No, never any thought of a sale.

Would someone like to substaniate the enormous amount of incredible stories from the same fantasist?

[roadracingoldfart]

Is there a can of worms emoticon on here anywhere?


YUPP rite next to the Foot in Mouth emoticon Steve

[nzkr1]

No, never any thought of a sale.

Would someone like to substaniate the enormous amount of incredible stories from the same fantasist?

Who cares, he tells a few stories, always taken with a grain of salt. He's also pretty good at suspension set up.

[PeeJay]

they should never be in any way misrepresented as being better than what they actually are. That is my point and I think its a fair one.

A fair point but it applies to the full spectrum of products not just the "cheap" ones

[Robert Taylor]

Who cares, he tells a few stories, always taken with a grain of salt. He's also pretty good at suspension set up.

More than a few people beg to differ, been there tried that, got sick of crashing and with really stupid setups that were getting them nowhere. That gives suspension tuners in general a bad name. We also have our ''failures'' but our ratio is appreciably lower and we persist in sorting out issues rather than hoodwinking them into thinking a solution that just isnt going to work. For example a 13 newton spring recommended and fitted to a CBR600 for an average weight rider, that just sends the wheel force rate ballistic. THAT IS THE REALLY DUMB STUFF THAT IS BEING DONE. And how do you know you are not being spun a line given all the fantastic stories of ''deeds glorious and victorious'' in previous incarnations going back at least 100 years.

Sorry, I have no time for brazen BS and ego, and those that perpetuate it.

[scracha]

Sorry, I have no time for brazen BS and ego, and those that perpetuate it.

Two words:- Jelly Wrestling

[PeeJay]

you cant help yourself can you.
Your lifes mantra is
"if its not Ohlins its crap"
Further refined as
"if its not Ohlins bought from the only authorised dealer in NZ its crap"
and
"if you dont use ohlins, then by definition you are crap, dont know what you are doing and are going to die"

Noone disputes that Ohlins is one of the best suspensions available, but dare anyone try anything different.
GW wins and its an OK result by a top rider.
Your way of saying
despite the suspension he won. If you arent a top rider and you choose YSS you are in trouble
If he fell off you would be all over here crowing about the suspension liberally peppered with "I told you so"
If an ohlins mounted rider falls off, well that was tyres, or the rider, the track, it definitely wasnt the suspension.

Noone is slagging off the ohlins equipped bikes that DIDNT win. (they obviously dont know how to ride because there is nothing wrong with their suspension, fact.)

Is it so hard to just say "great result, good on you" without having a dig at GW's team because they dared to be a little different?

[GSVR]

Good first race meet for the new/old bike GW. Was exspecting it to be a little faster from the insider information I was getting but the wet track and oil sufficently explains the reason.

I reacon you could go about 0.01 secs a lap faster with the better suspension. Every little bit counts as races are won by less!

[roadracingoldfart]

you cant help yourself can you.
Your lifes mantra is
"if its not Ohlins its crap"
Further refined as
"if its not Ohlins bought from the only authorised dealer in NZ its crap"
and
"if you dont use ohlins, then by definition you are crap, dont know what you are doing and are going to die"

Noone disputes that Ohlins is one of the best suspensions available, but dare anyone try anything different.
GW wins and its an OK result by a top rider.
Your way of saying
despite the suspension he won. If you arent a top rider and you choose YSS you are in trouble
If he fell off you would be all over here crowing about the suspension liberally peppered with "I told you so"
If an ohlins mounted rider falls off, well that was tyres, or the rider, the track, it definitely wasnt the suspension.

Noone is slagging off the ohlins equipped bikes that DIDNT win. (they obviously dont know how to ride because there is nothing wrong with their suspension, fact.)

Is it so hard to just say "great result, good on you" without having a dig at GW's team because they dared to be a little different?

And i could add that even GW (mk2) could have a differant result in the future with some of the other P/C senior guys attending the future rounds.
Point being , hes bloody good but he was also under less pressure for his first outing and the suspention may not have been the deciding factor.
I got the same shit slung at me in 1990 when i ran a White Power shod RC30 and yet i crashed twice in one race and still won by half a straight , comp was minimal and i was lucky. Next round a few Auck , Naki guys turned up and gave me a spanking. I hated Dave Martin that day lol.

Paul.

[Robert Taylor]

you cant help yourself can you.
Your lifes mantra is
"if its not Ohlins its crap"
Further refined as
"if its not Ohlins bought from the only authorised dealer in NZ its crap"
and
"if you dont use ohlins, then by definition you are crap, dont know what you are doing and are going to die"

Noone disputes that Ohlins is one of the best suspensions available, but dare anyone try anything different.
GW wins and its an OK result by a top rider.
Your way of saying
despite the suspension he won. If you arent a top rider and you choose YSS you are in trouble
If he fell off you would be all over here crowing about the suspension liberally peppered with "I told you so"
If an ohlins mounted rider falls off, well that was tyres, or the rider, the track, it definitely wasnt the suspension.

Noone is slagging off the ohlins equipped bikes that DIDNT win. (they obviously dont know how to ride because there is nothing wrong with their suspension, fact.)

Is it so hard to just say "great result, good on you" without having a dig at GW's team because they dared to be a little different?

Incorrect, did I not mention the two other top brands? Glenn is a great rider (fact) and I have amiable dialogue with him and have also told him that he would go better with better suspension. No malice between him and I because he is still using the same basic suspension we ( CKT ) developed for his F3 bike 3 seasons back . He may care to confirm that if you ask him.
And I said somewhere else to the effect ''each to his own''. But its also fair to point out the differences between mid price and top shelf. My only crime is daring to challenge, publicly.

[roogazza]

:jerry::jerry: Paul, I thought Rainey won that year ?? LOL

[QUOTE=roadracingoldfart
I got the same shit slung at me in 1990 when i ran a White Power shod RC30 and yet i crashed twice in one race and still won by half a straight , comp was minimal and i was lucky. Next round a few Auck , Naki guys turned up and gave me a spanking. I hated Dave Martin that day lol.

Paul.[/QUOTE]

[codgyoleracer]

And i could add that even GW (mk2) could have a differant result in the future with some of the other P/C senior guys attending the future rounds.
Point being , hes bloody good but he was also under less pressure for his first outing and the suspention may not have been the deciding factor.
I got the same shit slung at me in 1990 when i ran a White Power shod RC30 and yet i crashed twice in one race and still won by half a straight , comp was minimal and i was lucky. Next round a few Auck , Naki guys turned up and gave me a spanking. I hated Dave Martin that day lol.

Paul.

Haha , Dave Martin , Detour and Huggybear from the naki were all on the quick side aye Paul. I agree though , it will be good to see more turning up to play at the pointy end and also to see those that are running in 2nd,3rd,4th to lift thier game even further aye.
Suspensionwise - we have more to come as we dial things in hopefully - and as you say i may just need everything i can get ! :-)
Glen

[roadracingoldfart]

Haha , Dave Martin , Detour and Huggybear from the naki were all on the quick side aye Paul. I agree though , it will be good to see more turning up to play at the pointy end and also to see those that are running in 2nd,3rd,4th to lift thier game even further aye.
Suspensionwise - we have more to come as we dial things in hopefully - and as you say i may just need everything i can get ! :-)
Glen

Ahh yes a bunch of facory supported bastards they all were lol.
Round 2 and futures will be fun , it makes me want to come to all of them now hahahaha now makes note to get Wootton to sort Codgys ass out

[nzkr1]

More than a few people beg to differ, been there tried that, got sick of crashing and with really stupid setups that were getting them nowhere. That gives suspension tuners in general a bad name. We also have our ''failures'' but our ratio is appreciably lower and we persist in sorting out issues rather than hoodwinking them into thinking a solution that just isnt going to work. For example a 13 newton spring recommended and fitted to a CBR600 for an average weight rider, that just sends the wheel force rate ballistic. THAT IS THE REALLY DUMB STUFF THAT IS BEING DONE. And how do you know you are not being spun a line given all the fantastic stories of ''deeds glorious and victorious'' in previous incarnations going back at least 100 years.

Sorry, I have no time for brazen BS and ego, and those that perpetuate it.

Not once have I bagged your ability to tune suspension, this thread is about YSS and Glen doing well because of it. YSS is obviously a cheaper alternative to Ohlin’s, Penske and WP only because manufacturing and assembly takes place in Thailand. I believe that the engineers behind YSS have come from some of those other high profile suspension manufactures to make the product what it is, world class.
Having competed at quite a few meetings over the last few years I have observed your performance, and would like to say that your product and service are totally out of my league. I would also imagine that a lot of the other racers who aren’t factory backed and have limited funds would feel the same. We need someone to possibly fill that gap. I hardly think that you would have the time to advise suspension set up to everyone in the pits and especially to someone who is using 21 year old suspension.

[gixerracer]

According to Robert Taylor it means Yobo's suspension service
What is yss suspension?

[roadracingoldfart]

:jerry::jerry: Paul, I thought Rainey won that year ?? LOL

Only cause i didnt turn up to the final round Gary ya smart ass.

[GSVR]

According to Robert Taylor it means Yobo's suspension service

Thanks for that. I was told YSS stood for "Your Suspension Sucks"

Can't ague the fact Oleans is best after seeing how RT transformed Sloans' BMW aye! 8.5s on first outing on wet oily track. I think we have next years Superbike Champ!

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for that. I was told YSS stood for "Your Suspension Sucks"

Can't ague the fact Oleans is best after seeing how RT transformed Sloans' BMW aye! 8.5s on first outing on wet oily track. I think we have next years Superbike Champ!

Hey thats better than my slang! Laughing my head off right now. Dont over-rate the BMW ( Bob Marley and the Wailers ) Theres a lot of work to do yet, as soon as it gets some real horsepower its going to tie the rear suspension in knots and we will have to start over. And then it will be Ohshit, an acronym for Ohlins.
All kudos to Sloan, he is an effective, talented and sensible rider and wants to go places. We need more ex puddle jumpers like him.

[Robert Taylor]

Not once have I bagged your ability to tune suspension, this thread is about YSS and Glen doing well because of it. YSS is obviously a cheaper alternative to Ohlin’s, Penske and WP only because manufacturing and assembly takes place in Thailand. I believe that the engineers behind YSS have come from some of those other high profile suspension manufactures to make the product what it is, world class.
Having competed at quite a few meetings over the last few years I have observed your performance, and would like to say that your product and service are totally out of my league. I would also imagine that a lot of the other racers who aren’t factory backed and have limited funds would feel the same. We need someone to possibly fill that gap. I hardly think that you would have the time to advise suspension set up to everyone in the pits and especially to someone who is using 21 year old suspension.

Yes indeed, totally accepted. Im not by any means saying that brand is bad as such but having pulled yet another one apart today I can well understand where they are cutting corners to save cost, notwithstanding that they are made in a country arguably on the brink of civil war. Whilst I havent followed that to the nth degree I guess its reasonable to surmise that their working conditions and close to slave labour rates influence that ( okay I am moralising here! ) But we are all collectively hypocites in this warped and out of kilter world. From the shirts on our backs to the plethora of consumables that are before us we all marvel at the cheap prices for many consumer toys, while conveniently forgetting that many are assembled / sourced at close to slave labour rates

Having familiarised myself yet more with the internal construction of that brand ( we work on far more than our beloved Swedish product ) I think the phrase ''World class suspension'' is really pushing it. Ive been in the suspension game 25 years and Ive seen and worked on a LOT of brands. Some brands are innovators because they have huge R&D facilities ( eg Ohlins ) Others are copiers and its easy to see what brands fall into that category. With the forthcoming electronic revolution they will be left further behind.

Actually we are not out of your league at all, have you ever made yourself known to either myself or Dennis? We are more than happy to talk to anyone and offer help, irrespective of age of bike, suspension etc. We dont exactly cruise around the pits like ''roving sharks''. That is not our style, but if ANYONE asks for help we are MORE than happy to assist. Yes we are very busy with the top guys but we will absolutely help everyone irrespective of ability, means or whatever. Dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Ive lost count of the number of people we have helped and not charged a brass razoo, in fact we actually get a kick out of helping ''randomn'' people that come to us and seeing real improvement!

[jellywrestler]

Two words:- Jelly Wrestling

did someone call?

[Peter Smith]

Thanks for that. I was told YSS stood for "Your Suspension Sucks"

I'm sure it stood for the "Yellow Snow Society" I stand corrected.

[PeeJay]

Incorrect, did I not mention the two other top brands? Glenn is a great rider (fact) and I have amiable dialogue with him and have also told him that he would go better with better suspension. No malice between him and I because he is still using the same basic suspension we ( CKT ) developed for his F3 bike 3 seasons back . He may care to confirm that if you ask him.
And I said somewhere else to the effect ''each to his own''. But its also fair to point out the differences between mid price and top shelf. My only crime is daring to challenge, publicly.

You did mention other brands, but you certainly dont see them as the equal of ohlins, and while you dont dismiss them as you do YSS, you are quick to go into technobabble mode to point out why ohlins is better.

"have also told him that he would go better with better suspension"

You obviously dont think much of his racing experience and skill if you felt the need to pass this bit of wisdom on.
He's not 5 yrs old, he knows better suspension, better tyres, better leathers, better etc etc etc, or a big bag of money, will all contribute to making his times better.
Anybody who has raced for more than 5 minutes knows all of this.

Everyone knows Ohlins produce some of the worlds top suspension systems.
Anyone buying YSS and thinking they are getting Ohlins are deluded.
These are self evident.
All Glen has basically said is he's running YSS, went OK, a few adjustments it went better, room for improvement.
No mention of Ohlins, no veiled references to ohlins, no reference to any higher priced units. Someone asked how much and he replied.
You on the other hand climb straight in boots and all and go into great detail as to whats wrong with YSS, complete with examples of customer dissatisfaction, basically rubbishing them as pretenders, trying to make a cheap copy of Ohlins and making a hash of it. Swedish and German steel, assembled in Sweden etc, compared to a slave labour, sweat shop factory in Thailand, steel and ali from the local scrap yard, all in a corrupt country on the brink of civil war.
And by association anyone using YSS, including GW, is a muppet who wouldnt know if the sun was shining.

Your Suspension Sucks
Hey thats better than my slang! Laughing my head off right now

That comment speaks volumes about you
But hey, I am sure anyone remotely considering YSS has been scared off and you phone will be ringing hot with orders.
Or maybe people will look up YSS on the web, have read, have a think, ask a couple of questions, and make their minds up for themselves.

Your anti YSS rant has probably helped them more than you would like!!
You never know.

[Robert Taylor]

T
You did mention other brands, but you certainly dont see them as the equal of ohlins, and while you dont dismiss them as you do YSS, you are quick to go into technobabble mode to point out why ohlins is better.

"have also told him that he would go better with better suspension"

You obviously dont think much of his racing experience and skill if you felt the need to pass this bit of wisdom on.
He's not 5 yrs old, he knows better suspension, better tyres, better leathers, better etc etc etc, or a big bag of money, will all contribute to making his times better.
Anybody who has raced for more than 5 minutes knows all of this.

Everyone knows Ohlins produce some of the worlds top suspension systems.
Anyone buying YSS and thinking they are getting Ohlins are deluded.
These are self evident.
All Glen has basically said is he's running YSS, went OK, a few adjustments it went better, room for improvement.
No mention of Ohlins, no veiled references to ohlins, no reference to any higher priced units. Someone asked how much and he replied.
You on the other hand climb straight in boots and all and go into great detail as to whats wrong with YSS, complete with examples of customer dissatisfaction, basically rubbishing them as pretenders, trying to make a cheap copy of Ohlins and making a hash of it. Swedish and German steel, assembled in Sweden etc, compared to a slave labour, sweat shop factory in Thailand, steel and ali from the local scrap yard, all in a corrupt country on the brink of civil war.
And by association anyone using YSS, including GW, is a muppet who wouldnt know if the sun was shining.

Your Suspension Sucks
Hey thats better than my slang! Laughing my head off right now

That comment speaks volumes about you
But hey, I am sure anyone remotely considering YSS has been scared off and you phone will be ringing hot with orders.
Or maybe people will look up YSS on the web, have read, have a think, ask a couple of questions, and make their minds up for themselves.

Your anti YSS rant has probably helped them more than you would like!!
You never know.

Total over-reaction on your part as you clearly want to think the worst out of what I have said. You will note for example that I also came up with ( well somebody else did years ago ) a self effacing and uncomplimentary acronym for Ohlins. Thats called humour and I think most people would have accepted it in the spirit it was given.
I have now had a number of these Thai shocks apart and frankly that reinforces my findings that they cut corners in certain areas, as do many other mid price manufacturers such as oem Sachs etc. Have you had some apart?
People are as free to choose mediocrity as they are top shelf stuff. I say again, marketing it as ''World class suspension'' is really pushing it.

[crazy man]

only 2 secs slower than Doug Polan 125 hp ducati in 92! lol ducatis rulzs a gsvr

[codgyoleracer]

Perhaps you need to take some lessons on starts with Ernie Cubby, he had a demon start in the second race.....

Yeah Ernies reaction speeds were pretty impressive aye ! :shutup: , followed him around in practice and he is still one very smoooooooth rider/operator. :yes:

[codgyoleracer]

Very impressive lap times for your first meeting and on a damp track.
Well done, but don't get too much faster OK.

Good advice Pete, time to slow down and defer some attention...............

[codgyoleracer]

Be aware glen ill have secret weapon for round 2 AKA towrope.You may still win but not by much.

Secret weapon sounds just fine.............. A tow rope means that you are still behind me after all aye ......... :-) (i'll bring a nice looooooong one for the next round)

[CHOPPA]

What lap times were the WSBKs running around in 89-90? Someone told me they were doing 4s!!!??? Its sorta believable as the track would have been in prob better condition and world class riders, factory bikes etc

[nzkr1]

Yeah Ernies reaction speeds were pretty impressive aye ! :shutup: , followed him around in practice and he is still one very smoooooooth rider/operator. :yes:

It was such a blatant jump start I lost concentration and stuffed up my own start, and I even think that other FZR cocked up his start too and launched his front wheel at me :gob:

[Shaun]

Not once have I bagged your ability to tune suspension, this thread is about YSS and Glen doing well because of it. YSS is obviously a cheaper alternative to Ohlin’s, Penske and WP only because manufacturing and assembly takes place in Thailand. I believe that the engineers behind YSS have come from some of those other high profile suspension manufactures to make the product what it is, world class.
Having competed at quite a few meetings over the last few years I have observed your performance, and would like to say that your product and service are totally out of my league. I would also imagine that a lot of the other racers who aren’t factory backed and have limited funds would feel the same. We need someone to possibly fill that gap. I hardly think that you would have the time to advise suspension set up to everyone in the pits and especially to someone who is using 21 year old suspension.


So all you have to do, is come and talk to me at the race track

[Peter Smith]

Good advice Pete, time to slow down and defer some attention...............

And never, ever mention the word "suspension" in any more threads. You should have known better. Shame on you. :spanking::rofl::rofl:

[Peter Smith]

What lap times were the WSBKs running around in 89-90? Someone told me they were doing 4s!!!??? Its sorta believable as the track would have been in prob better condition and world class riders, factory bikes etc

The local lad's Tony Rees and Russel J were doing 1:10's-11's

1988: The fastest lap from race 1 at Manfield from WSBK was Fred Merkel 1m 16.12s, wet race. Race 2 Stephane Mertens 1m 11.26s on slicks on a drying track.
1989: Race 1, Mike Dowson 1m 15.57s wet. Race 2, Aaron Slight 1m 08.17s dry.
1990: Race 1, Terry Rymer 1m 08.48s, Race 2, Rob Phillis and Raymond Roche
1m 08.39s.
1992: Race 1, Aaron Slight 1m 07.38s, Race 2, Doug Polen 1m 06.97s.

[Robert Taylor]

So all you have to do, is come and talk to me at the race track

Good point Shaun, I should have mentioned your involvement. Shaun as an ex racer and development rider par excellence is more than capable of providing help and advice re suspension and setup and anything beyond that. We ( CKT ) totally endorse and reccommend his skills. And it matters not what suspension you use!

In another post a term was used ''speaks volumes''. If I can borrow that term what Id like to ''speak volumes'' about is that I have reservations about anything that effectively lowers standards in the name of lower prices. But as I also said each to their own, we will work on almost all brands and do so on a daily basis.

[codgyoleracer]

only 2 secs slower than Doug Polan 125 hp ducati in 92! lol ducatis rulzs a gsvr

Plenty of speed left yet then......... Dont ya just hate people that have natural talent........ :-)

[roadracingoldfart]

The local lad's Tony Rees and Russel J were doing 1:10's-11's

1988: The fastest lap from race 1 at Manfield from WSBK was Fred Merkel 1m 16.12s, wet race. Race 2 Stephane Mertens 1m 11.26s on slicks on a drying track.
1989: Race 1, Mike Dowson 1m 15.57s wet. Race 2, Aaron Slight 1m 08.17s dry.
1990: Race 1, Terry Rymer 1m 08.48s, Race 2, Rob Phillis and Raymond Roche
1m 08.39s.
1992: Race 1, Aaron Slight 1m 07.38s, Race 2, Doug Polen 1m 06.97s.

And i was doing .17s in the dry on a pretty fast RC30 lol. That thing of Pollens was fast but a grenede recipe engine , same as R.Roache's 888 bike a few years earlier , you can still smell the crank whisp in the ashpalt from his massive middle straight explosion. Mind you , he was half a lap ahead after just 3 laps so it was expected lol.


Paul.

[steveyb]

Are you seriously, now I mean seriously, trying to tell us that the older you get the faster you were?
;-)

[codgyoleracer]

Are you seriously, now I mean seriously, trying to tell us that the older you get the faster you were?
;-)

Whats important Steve is that he was faster than you ................... :-)

[Peter Smith]

Good advice Pete, time to slow down and defer some attention...............

You look to have the suspension sorted pretty well. Have you done any motor mods?

[codgyoleracer]

You look to have the suspension sorted pretty well. Have you done any motor mods?

Suspension first, motor next............

[roadracingoldfart]

Are you seriously, now I mean seriously, trying to tell us that the older you get the faster you were?
;-)


Yer !!:gob:
But in defence i was on an RC30 with half a factory kit and lately ive been on a 21 yr old CBR400 lol. Almost the same , plus i have retired again you know .:innocent:

[roadracingoldfart]

Whats important Steve is that he was faster than you ................... :-)


Only because my class was on the grid before his race hahahaha

[codgyoleracer]

Yer !!:gob:
But in defence i was on an RC30 with half a factory kit and lately ive been on a 21 yr old CBR400 lol. Almost the same , plus i have retired again you know .:innocent:

Bullshit!, i was watchin your face in the stands mate, you were just about riding those bikes out there on the track......................... :-) , get out there mate , if only to beat Steves 250 butt on a donky 400 Honda.

[roadracingoldfart]

Bullshit!, i was watchin your face in the stands mate, you were just about riding those bikes out there on the track......................... :-) , get out there mate , if only to beat Steves 250 butt on a donky 400 Honda.


Words have been exchanged with the CFO lately , so who knows what may happen.

[PeeJay]

T

Total over-reaction on your part as you clearly want to think the worst out of what I have said. You will note for example that I also came up with ( well somebody else did years ago ) a self effacing and uncomplimentary acronym for Ohlins. Thats called humour and I think most people would have accepted it in the spirit it was given.
I have now had a number of these Thai shocks apart and frankly that reinforces my findings that they cut corners in certain areas, as do many other mid price manufacturers such as oem Sachs etc. Have you had some apart?
People are as free to choose mediocrity as they are top shelf stuff. I say again, marketing it as ''World class suspension'' is really pushing it.

You may call it over reaction but like you my crime is to challenge, in this case you, on a lot of your statements, innuendo etc.
As you have bought it up, I agree totally, manufacturers cut corners, your example oem Sachs, as well as YSS.
I would add though the proviso ALL manufacturers cut corners, everything is built to a price.
you see where this is going.
Yes even Ohlins cuts corners. Something that must have slipped your mind, otherwise you would have mentioned it.
Compare oem Ohlins to "real" Ohlins.
Are Ducati (and others) going to pay top $$ for the very best Ohlins has to offer?
Doubt it. Ducati supply the data for their "average" rider, riding on their "average" road, at their "average" speeds, and Ohlins supply an "average" suspension at a GOOD PRICE (for Ducati)
How do they do this? in your words cut corners.
Prime requirement? yellow spring and a sticker, otherwise a production suspension. (albeit a good one)
There is no engineer spending all day hand assembling each shock to exacting tolerances and performance, there is a production line.
No different from oem Sachs, oem Showa and dare I say it YSS, all production line products.
Another snippet which you obviously forgot about when you slagged off Asian manufacturers, Some of Ohlins outside suppliers are based in Asia.
Even ohlins arent immune to saving money where they can.
Just in case you read between the lines and read something thats not there, in my opinion Ohlins produce some of the best suspensions in the world, but for NZ$1600 you arent getting the same shock as Rossi uses. Same sticker.
another day

BTW "world class" is advertising PR BS which doesnt actually mean anything. It sounds and looks good.
A bit like Mission Statements

[Robert Taylor]

You may call it over reaction but like you my crime is to challenge, in this case you, on a lot of your statements, innuendo etc.
As you have bought it up, I agree totally, manufacturers cut corners, your example oem Sachs, as well as YSS.
I would add though the proviso ALL manufacturers cut corners, everything is built to a price.
you see where this is going.
Yes even Ohlins cuts corners. Something that must have slipped your mind, otherwise you would have mentioned it.
Compare oem Ohlins to "real" Ohlins.
Are Ducati (and others) going to pay top $$ for the very best Ohlins has to offer?
Doubt it. Ducati supply the data for their "average" rider, riding on their "average" road, at their "average" speeds, and Ohlins supply an "average" suspension at a GOOD PRICE (for Ducati)
How do they do this? in your words cut corners.
Prime requirement? yellow spring and a sticker, otherwise a production suspension. (albeit a good one)
There is no engineer spending all day hand assembling each shock to exacting tolerances and performance, there is a production line.
No different from oem Sachs, oem Showa and dare I say it YSS, all production line products.
Another snippet which you obviously forgot about when you slagged off Asian manufacturers, Some of Ohlins outside suppliers are based in Asia.
Even ohlins arent immune to saving money where they can.
Just in case you read between the lines and read something thats not there, in my opinion Ohlins produce some of the best suspensions in the world, but for NZ$1600 you arent getting the same shock as Rossi uses. Same sticker.
another day

BTW "world class" is advertising PR BS which doesnt actually mean anything. It sounds and looks good.
A bit like Mission Statements

Bring it on, Im more than elaborate to elaborate fully on the above, much of which isi correct. Will do so tonight.

With respect to PR BS the sad thing is many people get taken in by it. For example how many people actually believe the line ''fully adjustable suspension'' Its about as worthless a statement as Neville Chamberlains statement ''peace in our time''.

[codgyoleracer]

Bring it on, Im more than elaborate to elaborate fully on the above, much of which isi correct. Will do so tonight.

With respect to PR BS the sad thing is many people get taken in by it. For example how many people actually believe the line ''fully adjustable suspension'' Its about as worthless a statement as Neville Chamberlains statement ''peace in our time''.


Great to see some creative debate on the pro's & cons of the different suspension systems that are out there!. The YSS gear was overall a big step forward from the original set up on the bike and provided me with the ability to effectivly adjust and substantially improve the bikes geometry, dampening effect and corner speed. I am sure that there are other brands that could / would do the same.
But for "bang for buck" value - the YSS gear is worth considering as an option, + It also it has the extra benefit of having a pro-active service agent in the form of Kerry Dukic Ph 021 715547 to fit custom valving & spring rates etc to suit your own personal needs. (earplugs required on occasions :-) )
The fact that W Whites (the importer) established a relationship with Dukic as their service agent in their initial business plan to distribute the YSS range in New Zealand was a deciding factor for myself when i was considering what to fit & invest in suspensionwise to the bike. I also quite enjoy doing something a little bit different and thought that this would add a bit of extra spice and interest to the establishing Pre89 posties race class.

Cheers, Glen

[White trash]

As you've said many times Robert, business competion is healthy for the industry as it makes competitors lift their game. Good on Glen for going in a different direction to the norm as far as I'm concerned, it makes things interesting to say the least, this thread is proof of the fact. I'll be very interested when some of the current Dukic customers fit YSS to their machines in other classes as tho the success against other manufacturers.

For me personally, I wouldn't go near YSS in NZ simply because of who the service agent is, but that's a personall oppinion rather than cost OR quality.

Good luck with the developments Glen, I look forward to seeing you at R II.

[Shaun]

As you've said many times Robert, business competion is healthy for the industry as it makes competitors lift their game. Good on Glen for going in a different direction to the norm as far as I'm concerned, it makes things interesting to say the least, this thread is proof of the fact. I'll be very interested when some of the current Dukic customers fit YSS to their machines in other classes as tho the success against other manufacturers.

For me personally, I wouldn't go near YSS in NZ simply because of who the service agent is, but that's a personall oppinion rather than cost OR quality.

Good luck with the developments Glen, I look forward to seeing you at R II.

What would you know TOSSER? Now get back to work, before I email your boss

[codgyoleracer]

As you've said many times Robert, business competion is healthy for the industry as it makes competitors lift their game. Good on Glen for going in a different direction to the norm as far as I'm concerned, it makes things interesting to say the least, this thread is proof of the fact. I'll be very interested when some of the current Dukic customers fit YSS to their machines in other classes as tho the success against other manufacturers.

For me personally, I wouldn't go near YSS in NZ simply because of who the service agent is, but that's a personall oppinion rather than cost OR quality.

Good luck with the developments Glen, I look forward to seeing you at R II.

Long track for round two, so will make a mental note to try and carry the speed i saw you doin once when hangin a left onto the extension................... I am sure you recall the time........ :-), - with YSS in board i might just make it though ?

[White trash]

What would you know TOSSER? Now get back to work, before I email your boss

Actually mate, when you do could you ask him where the fuck my final pay is? Haven't worked there for 2 weeks now. I'll bring ya up to speed with the new venture at Actrix RII


Long track for round two, so will make a mental note to try and carry the speed i saw you doin once when hangin a left onto the extension................... I am sure you recall the time........ :-), - with YSS in board i must just make it though ?

LOL. I have absolutely no fuggin idea what you're on about old man. It was more the stone cold front slick off the restart and a burning desire to smash Carey and Derrik a pair of new a-holes on my second meeting on a thou. Funny how things work out.... :)

[Robert Taylor]

As you've said many times Robert, business competion is healthy for the industry as it makes competitors lift their game. Good on Glen for going in a different direction to the norm as far as I'm concerned, it makes things interesting to say the least, this thread is proof of the fact. I'll be very interested when some of the current Dukic customers fit YSS to their machines in other classes as tho the success against other manufacturers.

For me personally, I wouldn't go near YSS in NZ simply because of who the service agent is, but that's a personall oppinion rather than cost OR quality.

Good luck with the developments Glen, I look forward to seeing you at R II.

Absolutely! Ditto to all of your comments and competition with ethics is great.

[steveyb]

Whats important Steve is that he was faster than you ................... :-)

You'll get the jandal!!!!

[Robert Taylor]

You may call it over reaction but like you my crime is to challenge, in this case you, on a lot of your statements, innuendo etc.
As you have bought it up, I agree totally, manufacturers cut corners, your example oem Sachs, as well as YSS.
I would add though the proviso ALL manufacturers cut corners, everything is built to a price.
you see where this is going.
Yes even Ohlins cuts corners. Something that must have slipped your mind, otherwise you would have mentioned it.
Compare oem Ohlins to "real" Ohlins.
Are Ducati (and others) going to pay top $$ for the very best Ohlins has to offer?
Doubt it. Ducati supply the data for their "average" rider, riding on their "average" road, at their "average" speeds, and Ohlins supply an "average" suspension at a GOOD PRICE (for Ducati)
How do they do this? in your words cut corners.
Prime requirement? yellow spring and a sticker, otherwise a production suspension. (albeit a good one)
There is no engineer spending all day hand assembling each shock to exacting tolerances and performance, there is a production line.
No different from oem Sachs, oem Showa and dare I say it YSS, all production line products.
Another snippet which you obviously forgot about when you slagged off Asian manufacturers, Some of Ohlins outside suppliers are based in Asia.
Even ohlins arent immune to saving money where they can.
Just in case you read between the lines and read something thats not there, in my opinion Ohlins produce some of the best suspensions in the world, but for NZ$1600 you arent getting the same shock as Rossi uses. Same sticker.
another day

BTW "world class" is advertising PR BS which doesnt actually mean anything. It sounds and looks good.
A bit like Mission Statements

I stand resoutely by everything I have said, Ive been in the suspension trade for a very long time, I think I can differentiate quality.

Ohlins is a very transparent company compared to most and a number of people that read this post will recall that Ive always been up front where their Road and Track forks have been made, Japan ( a little bit distinct from mainland Asia )

Ohlins make a lot of suspension units as oem supply for manufacturers , yes. This mainly for those manufacturers high spec models where often a lesser spec model exists with lower spec suspension , eg Sachs, Showa etc. But certainly higher quality and function.

For many years Ohlins major shareholder was Yamaha Motor Co, finishing up at 95% shareholding with Kenth Ohlin having the remaining 5%. This was by and large a very productive relationship. YMC is a very big company with lots of interests that go beyond the motorcycle industry. They also are the major shareholder in another Japanese company, Soqi, a suspension manufacturer. 2 things came out of this that we are familiar with here in NZ;

1) Road and Track forks, these still being built for oem supply as Ohlins branded forks. Great forks but the valving can be improved somewhat for our high proportion of bumpy roads. Compared to an oem product such as KYB / Showa / Sachs its a much better product. Still ''expensive'' because they are produced and assembled in Japan where quality control is something that is taken seriously and their workers are paid well ( Im moralising here and not apologising for it ) Aftermarket Ohlins forks are now wholly produced in Sweden and they are a new generation thats much better again than the Road and Track forks we are most familiar with.

2) Ohlins branded car shocks that arrive here in Japanese import cars. This blatantly is a badging exercise as the shocks are wholly produced in Japan by Soqi and were intended for the Japanese domestic market only, never intended for export by a gentlemans agreement. That is until the embracement of the free market and large numbers of grey imports arriving in RH drive markets such as NZ, South Africa etc. Whilst not as good as the genuine Swedish offerings they are still a very very good product and Ive been repeatedly told by my car customers that send these in for service that they are right up there at the top in terms of performance and quality.

Ohlins Sweden have just now started building a new range of car shocks, still made in Japan but a whole new very high quality design and wholly developed in Sweden. These are an extremely nice looking product.

Relevant to point out that just a little over two years back Kenth Ohlin largely bought out Yamahas shareholding, the ratio now being Kenth Ohlin 95%, YMC 5%. So waht was a largely Japanese company operating almost autonomously in Sweden is now largely a Swedish company.

Having travelled to Sweden at least 10 or more times I have gotten to know their pysch very very well. They are well groomed, well disciplined with lots of pride, very well educated, are top heavy with engineers and have a very keen sense and in fact total desire for quality. Price is not the overwhelming preoccupation. But what also stands out is that they have a keen sense of social justice. Im prepared to eat humble pie later on but I dont forsee any time soon that they will shift production to the ''slave labour rate'' economies so prevalent in mainland Asia ( yes Im moralising again )

As an interesting aside approximately 7% of the worlds economy is piracy and the highest percentage of that comes from Asia. Ohlins have an employee that spends part of her time tracking these rip off merchants and there were blatant copies of Ohlins steering dampers being made in Thailand. Looked like the product to an ''average punter'' but worked like crap.

Yes every manufacturer does indeed cut corners when manufacturers supply a price point target, but to split hairs its a real insight into the mentality of the manufacturer just how they go about cutting corners. Ive seen some pretty dodgy stuff in a lot of shocks, even mid price. But by and large Ohlins will not cross the line for the simple expedient of making money, they have a solid and well earned reputation to upkeep.

About 4 or 5 years back Toyota Racing here in NZ asked me to quote on shock absorbers for their TRS racing series cars. I provided a very keen quote for purpose built Ohlins formula car dampers that would have done the job admirably. I didnt get the order , the then Ohlins distributor in Italy got the order and they happened to be just a few doors down from the chassis manufacturer Tatuus. Subsequently all the TRS chassis arrived in the country with these Italian built ''Ohlins'' shocks. It was almost straight away that I was recieving complaints from teams, ''these shocks arent working, cant match the clickers side to side, mine are leaking'' etc etc. So I had some sent to me and was horrified as they had only 20% Ohlins content in them, the pistons and valving were totally unsuitable for aero function downforce cars ( short stroke, high force ) and the parts that they had made looked like they came from a rural workshop in China. I ''hit the roof'' as shocks being passed off as Ohlins landed in the market that Im the Ohlins distributor for. So I got on the phone to Ohlins that evening and sent lots of images as proof. Within a matter of only 2 to 3 weeks Ohlins made the Italian distributor pay me 5000 Euros to contribute to the total reconstruction of the shocks and they then promptly canned that distributor. JUSTICE. Toyota Racing had to cough up for the rest ( 90 or so dampers were involved ) and that to me made a statement . ''you wanted cheap, well you are now paying for that folly''

Ohlins, just like WP and Penske are very serious about quality. Last year delivery dates were getting put back by what ended up as being months for MX steering dampers and we ( CKT ) were getting it in the kneck for being ''useless''. These dampers were delayed because Ohlins quality control department were constantly rejecting successive batches of the main damper body parts as they were dissatisfied with the tolerancing or more pointedly stability of that tolerancing as the alloy material aged. This company is very very particular about quality and its hard to imagine by and large mainland Asian companies having such admirable qualities. More like theyd send it out in the market anyway and then fob off the cissues as they occured. Come to think of it there have been a lot of issues with the rotary MX damper knockoffs made in mainland Asia.

Of course no-one in the street is going to get the very very top Ohlins gear as used by Rossi, Lorenzo, Davizioso and Pedrosa ( Team Yamaha and Team Honda ) Thats a 500,000 euro contract per MotoGP season per rider. But that leads to an interesting and very relevant point. Ohlins R&D facilities are huge and they have another effective laboratory by being right at the very pinnacle in road racing, MX and car racing in various classes. That technology trickles through to the man in the steet and to that end the followers ( who are not innovators ) are in the end event not even on the same page. That will becoming even more apparent in the years to come with more and more electronics in bike control.

You pay your money and you make your choice, I have no doubt there will be further racing success for that Asian brand in NZ but apples for apples, excellent setup for excellent setup, same rider the three leading brands will work better.

[gixerracer]

AS I said in a previous post just ignore robert hes a nob
I stand resoutely by everything I have said, Ive been in the suspension trade for a very long time, I think I can differentiate quality.

Ohlins is a very transparent company compared to most and a number of people that read this post will recall that Ive always been up front where their Road and Track forks have been made, Japan ( a little bit distinct from mainland Asia )

Ohlins make a lot of suspension units as oem supply for manufacturers , yes. This mainly for those manufacturers high spec models where often a lesser spec model exists with lower spec suspension , eg Sachs, Showa etc. But certainly higher quality and function.

For many years Ohlins major shareholder was Yamaha Motor Co, finishing up at 95% shareholding with Kenth Ohlin having the remaining 5%. This was by and large a very productive relationship. YMC is a very big company with lots of interests that go beyond the motorcycle industry. They also are the major shareholder in another Japanese company, Soqi, a suspension manufacturer. 2 things came out of this that we are familiar with here in NZ;

1) Road and Track forks, these still being built for oem supply as Ohlins branded forks. Great forks but the valving can be improved somewhat for our high proportion of bumpy roads. Compared to an oem product such as KYB / Showa / Sachs its a much better product. Still ''expensive'' because they are produced and assembled in Japan where quality control is something that is taken seriously and their workers are paid well ( Im moralising here and not apologising for it ) Aftermarket Ohlins forks are now wholly produced in Sweden and they are a new generation thats much better again than the Road and Track forks we are most familiar with.

2) Ohlins branded car shocks that arrive here in Japanese import cars. This blatantly is a badging exercise as the shocks are wholly produced in Japan by Soqi and were intended for the Japanese domestic market only, never intended for export by a gentlemans agreement. That is until the embracement of the free market and large numbers of grey imports arriving in RH drive markets such as NZ, South Africa etc. Whilst not as good as the genuine Swedish offerings they are still a very very good product and Ive been repeatedly told by my car customers that send these in for service that they are right up there at the top in terms of performance and quality.

Ohlins Sweden have just now started building a new range of car shocks, still made in Japan but a whole new very high quality design and wholly developed in Sweden. These are an extremely nice looking product.

Relevant to point out that just a little over two years back Kenth Ohlin largely bought out Yamahas shareholding, the ratio now being Kenth Ohlin 95%, YMC 5%. So waht was a largely Japanese company operating almost autonomously in Sweden is now largely a Swedish company.

Having travelled to Sweden at least 10 or more times I have gotten to know their pysch very very well. They are well groomed, well disciplined with lots of pride, very well educated, are top heavy with engineers and have a very keen sense and in fact total desire for quality. Price is not the overwhelming preoccupation. But what also stands out is that they have a keen sense of social justice. Im prepared to eat humble pie later on but I dont forsee any time soon that they will shift production to the ''slave labour rate'' economies so prevalent in mainland Asia ( yes Im moralising again )

As an interesting aside approximately 7% of the worlds economy is piracy and the highest percentage of that comes from Asia. Ohlins have an employee that spends part of her time tracking these rip off merchants and there were blatant copies of Ohlins steering dampers being made in Thailand. Looked like the product to an ''average punter'' but worked like crap.

Yes every manufacturer does indeed cut corners when manufacturers supply a price point target, but to split hairs its a real insight into the mentality of the manufacturer just how they go about cutting corners. Ive seen some pretty dodgy stuff in a lot of shocks, even mid price. But by and large Ohlins will not cross the line for the simple expedient of making money, they have a solid and well earned reputation to upkeep.

About 4 or 5 years back Toyota Racing here in NZ asked me to quote on shock absorbers for their TRS racing series cars. I provided a very keen quote for purpose built Ohlins formula car dampers that would have done the job admirably. I didnt get the order , the then Ohlins distributor in Italy got the order and they happened to be just a few doors down from the chassis manufacturer Tatuus. Subsequently all the TRS chassis arrived in the country with these Italian built ''Ohlins'' shocks. It was almost straight away that I was recieving complaints from teams, ''these shocks arent working, cant match the clickers side to side, mine are leaking'' etc etc. So I had some sent to me and was horrified as they had only 20% Ohlins content in them, the pistons and valving were totally unsuitable for aero function downforce cars ( short stroke, high force ) and the parts that they had made looked like they came from a rural workshop in China. I ''hit the roof'' as shocks being passed off as Ohlins landed in the market that Im the Ohlins distributor for. So I got on the phone to Ohlins that evening and sent lots of images as proof. Within a matter of only 2 to 3 weeks Ohlins made the Italian distributor pay me 5000 Euros to contribute to the total reconstruction of the shocks and they then promptly canned that distributor. JUSTICE. Toyota Racing had to cough up for the rest ( 90 or so dampers were involved ) and that to me made a statement . ''you wanted cheap, well you are now paying for that folly''

Ohlins, just like WP and Penske are very serious about quality. Last year delivery dates were getting put back by what ended up as being months for MX steering dampers and we ( CKT ) were getting it in the kneck for being ''useless''. These dampers were delayed because Ohlins quality control department were constantly rejecting successive batches of the main damper body parts as they were dissatisfied with the tolerancing or more pointedly stability of that tolerancing as the alloy material aged. This company is very very particular about quality and its hard to imagine by and large mainland Asian companies having such admirable qualities. More like theyd send it out in the market anyway and then fob off the cissues as they occured. Come to think of it there have been a lot of issues with the rotary MX damper knockoffs made in mainland Asia.

Of course no-one in the street is going to get the very very top Ohlins gear as used by Rossi, Lorenzo, Davizioso and Pedrosa ( Team Yamaha and Team Honda ) Thats a 500,000 euro contract per MotoGP season per rider. But that leads to an interesting and very relevant point. Ohlins R&D facilities are huge and they have another effective laboratory by being right at the very pinnacle in road racing, MX and car racing in various classes. That technology trickles through to the man in the steet and to that end the followers ( who are not innovators ) are in the end event not even on the same page. That will becoming even more apparent in the years to come with more and more electronics in bike control.

You pay your money and you make your choice, I have no doubt there will be further racing success for that Asian brand in NZ but apples for apples, excellent setup for excellent setup, same rider the three leading brands will work better.

[roadracingoldfart]

You'll get the jandal!!!!

Just make it a Dunlop jandal Steve, other brand ones dont make the grade.

[scracha]

AS I said in a previous post just ignore robert hes a nob
Knob: n - door knob
a - slang for obnoxious person

Nob : a - slang for person of wealth or high social position

[roadracingoldfart]

Knob: n - door knob
a - slang for obnoxious person

Nob : a - slang for person of wealth or high social position


Swat up on racecraft dickhead , leave the dictionary alone.

[Robert Taylor]

Swat up on racecraft dickhead , leave the dictionary alone.

And he talks funny, especially when excited!

Craigs nob

[Robert Taylor]

AS I said in a previous post just ignore robert hes a nob

You get some of the really special Ohlins stuff, dont tell anyone.

[PeeJay]

Thanks for the potted history of Ohlins, very informative.
Most people wouldnt have known that oem Ohlins are actually made in Japan, rather like old school Harley riders finding JAPAN in big letters on their forks when they removed the mudguard.

Regarding oem Ohlins, I beliveve 99% of the reason manufacturers fit them to a production bike is as a marketing tool. "woohoo this bike has ohlins, it must be good" While the suspension is good it isnt a generation better than say oem Showa, but it doesnt need to be, the vast majority of those bikes will never be pushed so hard that they need top flight suspension. But it will help sales and thats what it comes down to.

Regarding Toyota Racing , its a bit harsh to say ''you wanted cheap, well you are now paying for that folly'' They were ripped off by an authorised Ohlins dealer, and by extension Ohlins. Its not as if they bought them from Murrays Midnight Auto Emporium or from an ad on the internet.
I would have thought Ohlins would have sorted this out gratis if their dealer was entirley at fault.
Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

Just one point, Japan is still part of Asia. And I wouldnt be at all surprised to learn that some of the suppliers to Ohlins Japan are based in Taiwan or South Korea.

This post of yours was an excellent read, full of facts and good information. The thing I liked about it is the lack of invective with regard to other suspension brands.
Although instead of saying "that Asian brand" you could just say YSS
Nobody doubts the quality of Ohlins whether they are made in Sweden or Japan.
Everyone knows YSS isnt going to be as good as Ohlins, but in most cases they will be good enough for the intended use. Just as oem Ohlins are good enough for their intended use.
Good enough doesnt sound as good as perfectly adequate but means the same thing.
Thanks

[scracha]

Swat up on racecraft dickhead , leave the dictionary alone.

Oh, I missed one.

Knob: n - slang for penis (scots)

[codgyoleracer]

Just make it a Dunlop jandal Steve, other brand ones dont make the grade.

Mmmmmm Dunlops, ..... Now how much are they....... DOH!

[coreys]

beautifully put

[roadracingoldfart]

Mmmmmm Dunlops, ..... Now how much are they....... DOH!

Almost free to all us Dunlop sponsored riders list folk Glen , Honda superbike riders dont qualify. They mainly go barefoot anyhow dont they ??

[roadracingoldfart]

And he talks funny, especially when excited!



You should hear him excited and bloody drunk lol , thats a challenge .

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for the potted history of Ohlins, very informative.
Most people wouldnt have known that oem Ohlins are actually made in Japan, rather like old school Harley riders finding JAPAN in big letters on their forks when they removed the mudguard.

Regarding oem Ohlins, I beliveve 99% of the reason manufacturers fit them to a production bike is as a marketing tool. "woohoo this bike has ohlins, it must be good" While the suspension is good it isnt a generation better than say oem Showa, but it doesnt need to be, the vast majority of those bikes will never be pushed so hard that they need top flight suspension. But it will help sales and thats what it comes down to.

Regarding Toyota Racing , its a bit harsh to say ''you wanted cheap, well you are now paying for that folly'' They were ripped off by an authorised Ohlins dealer, and by extension Ohlins. Its not as if they bought them from Murrays Midnight Auto Emporium or from an ad on the internet.
I would have thought Ohlins would have sorted this out gratis if their dealer was entirley at fault.
Perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

Just one point, Japan is still part of Asia. And I wouldnt be at all surprised to learn that some of the suppliers to Ohlins Japan are based in Taiwan or South Korea.

This post of yours was an excellent read, full of facts and good information. The thing I liked about it is the lack of invective with regard to other suspension brands.
Although instead of saying "that Asian brand" you could just say YSS
Nobody doubts the quality of Ohlins whether they are made in Sweden or Japan.
Everyone knows YSS isnt going to be as good as Ohlins, but in most cases they will be good enough for the intended use. Just as oem Ohlins are good enough for their intended use.
Good enough doesnt sound as good as perfectly adequate but means the same thing.
Thanks

Happy to have elaborated at length and hopefully some of what I have said ( as an insider with Ohlins ) quells some general misconceptions.

Just to clarify beyond all doubt it is only the oem supply Ohlins road and track forks that are currently made in Japan. Therefore not the aftermarket Ohlins road and track forks and racing forks, all made in Sweden. All of the Ohlins motorcycle shock absorbers are made in Sweden.
Similarly so for the car side, the very latest generation of Ohlins road and track car shocks are designed, developed and tested in Sweden but made in Japan. These are distinct from the wholly Soqi ''badge engineered'' Japanese shocks . All of the racing shocks are made in Sweden, such as used in Indy cars, Le Mans, British and European touring cars etc.

Its also an interesting point to note that Ohlins have in the past been involved in collaborative purchasing exercises with companies such as WP, for example a few years back both WP and Ohlins required certain size fork tubing material and got together to get a better purchase price. Wim Peters is the guy that started WP and has been a mate of Kenth Ohlin for decades. A handful of years back he sold out his interest in WP to KTM. He now works for Ohlins running their research and tech centre in Germany. Funny old world!

Yes indeed no argument it is a powerful marketing tool having Ohlins kit as oem. But there are very plausible realities as the baseline of performance is higher and so is the potential to improve that further. The reality is that top shelf well fettled suspension is just as beneficail to ''joe average'' riders, if not more so. Much better chassis pitch balance, more mechanical grip, kinder to the tyres, very often dramatically improved bump compliance but also much improved feel and feedback to the rider. That improves rider confidence. One of the very biggest misconceptions is ''Im not fast enough for Ohlins ( or WP and Penske ) When in fact most everyday road riders want a more compliant ride on our high ratio of bumpy roads but with excellent chassis stability and control. But you also have suspension units that are actually designed to be easily serviced and tuned. If your personal stats fall outside of the average range its a LOT less drama to source alternative spring options for Ohlins product. Come rebuild time or repair time every single individual part is available as a part number for an Ohlins suspension unit, try that with oem units!

Its also not lost that those who peddle lower priced units have more than a little leaned on the knowledge that ( for a good part )Ohlins has imparted to the suspension world, even though they dont often care to admit it.

As stated previously R&D and relentless testing is a huge part of Ohlins and that inevitably does reflect in their prices, it being all too easy for detractors to say ''I can build that cheaper'' Its very easy to copy and not so easy to lead. Yes, that Asian brand is a follower and certainly not an innovator.

We have over the last 2 and a half years sold a sizable number of Ohlins gas TTX concept cartridges for MX bikes and the 3rd rendition for year 10 bikes are working fantastic. These units are basically a complete cartridge replacement that fits straight into the stock forks and the all up price at a little over 2k is pretty good. Riders using this stuff are very happy and its working better than reworking the stock cartridges, which youd reasonably hope to expect. An identical situation prevails with the TTX MX shocks.

We recently imported a couple of sets of full Ohlins factory MotoX forks. These are very limited production wholly Ohlins produced fork sets, so Ohlins outer fork legs, titanium nitrate coated tubes. seals. The Cartridges are in all respects exactly the same as the insert kits for oem forks but bottom out control is more effective given that the bottom out cups ( part of the inner fork tubes ) are longer and more effective. Whilst a retail price hasnt been set its going to likely be just shy of 10k per set

The performance is stunning , tested by Shayne King, Daryl King and Jesse Wiki, all of whom have done a lot of riding with the TTX catridges bolted into oem forks, as a direct apples for apples comparison. The difference is the action is a LOT smoother, especially over abrupt bumps that are always trying to deflect the forks, and believe me deflection is a lot more significant than people think. Bottoming control is sublime as is rider feel and feedback.

According to Ohlins they have spent a LOT of time with controlled flex, and in fact a lot of this has been learnt in MotoGP. With inner and outer forks the deflection rate is not in concert with oem forks, this means that bushing bind is happening all the time, thats what contributes to harshness. With the Ohlins forks the inner and outer tube deflection is much much more in harmony, result smoother action as was noticed straight away by the riders.

Add to that the battle against friction, this is a biggie not realised by a lot of people. These forks have a low friction titanium nitrate coating and Im talking a multi step process, not the thin marketing veneer seen on many roadbike forks that wears off quickly, especially if you use low quality high friction seals and cheap oil. In concert with that coating Ohlins use the very very highest spec and quality fork seals available, NOK.

There are fork seals and there are fork seals and there are pieces of crap. I have been scathing elsewhere about those dodgy red coloured 3 lip fork seals that so many people have been conned into purchasing. The friction they produce is out of control and we flat refuse to fit those seals. If anyone rading this has them fitted into their late model 1000cc
bike with low friction veneer coatings on the fork legs get the seals removed now and fit genuine which happen to be high spec NOK brand. They will quickly wear that coating off, its not the fork manufacturers fault, its the seal manufacturer.

The design mentality with those Ohlins MX forks is just one illustration of a real point of difference with a company like Ohlins. That mentality is just as applicable to their current generation of road and track forks, that delivers smoother action on the road, beneficail to all levels of riders.

With respect to Toyota Racing its all as plain as day and there is nothing more than meets the eye. In many respects they created the bed they had to lie on. The Italian Ohlins distributor crossed a line they should never have crossed to meet an unreasonably low price expectation and they should have just walked away. They paid the ultimate price for that transgression , they were swiftly stripped of their right to be the national distributor. In reality they didnt effectively build Ohlins shocks, they made their own parts ( largely ) installed only about 20% Ohlins parts content in them and passed them off as Ohlins. Exactly why I hit the roof and informed Ohlins Sweden as soon as I saw them. It wasnt up to Ohlins Sweden to make a gratis payment, it was up to the perpetrators of that deceit.

You really find people out when it comes to money, we have been servicing these shocks every season but this season it has been largely handled by one of my trusted service agents and we have been supplying the rebuild consumables. All good as we didnt really have the capacity to do so within stupidly tight timeframes. We had a fixed price service per shock unit that was pretty tight for margin and it was at a certain level the first year and then rose to a slightly higher level the next 2 years. I was subsequently talking to my service agent and he let on what he was charging per shock, it transpired that he had during negotiation been him what I had been charging for the first year only, passed off as current and he then set the level at that, which he thought was very tight. He was none too pleased when I told him the true current figure. In light of that I think my comment was in no way harsh ( ''you wanted cheap......)

In finishing off this diatribe ''good enough is never good enough''. In my opinion that is a defeatist mentality.

[PeeJay]

In finishing off this diatribe ''good enough is never good enough''. In my opinion that is a defeatist mentality.

Excellent
Good enough, suitable for purpose, rather than showing a defeatist mentality are practical realities.
As I said before Ducati et al are not going to pay for the very best when 99% of the time it wont be required, and would push the price of their bikes beyond the means of their target consumers. Sales (profits) would plummet regardless of how good the suspension was.
There comes a point when the increase in sales because of Ohlins turns into a decrease in sales because of ohlins, ie where spending more money on the best gear leads to a decrease in sales/profit
Who is the most profitable MV or Ducati? (just the motorcycle business)
Similarly if you decided to refuse to repair/refit older suspension, would only take the job if it included fitting the very best topline suspension that ohlins produce, its pretty obvious your business would be history in short order.
Having the best isnt much use if none can afford it.
Otherwise
cheers

[Robert Taylor]

Excellent
Good enough, suitable for purpose, rather than showing a defeatist mentality are practical realities.
As I said before Ducati et al are not going to pay for the very best when 99% of the time it wont be required, and would push the price of their bikes beyond the means of their target consumers. Sales (profits) would plummet regardless of how good the suspension was.
There comes a point when the increase in sales because of Ohlins turns into a decrease in sales because of ohlins, ie where spending more money on the best gear leads to a decrease in sales/profit
Who is the most profitable MV or Ducati? (just the motorcycle business)
Similarly if you decided to refuse to repair/refit older suspension, would only take the job if it included fitting the very best topline suspension that ohlins produce, its pretty obvious your business would be history in short order.
Having the best isnt much use if none can afford it.
Otherwise
cheers

No-one would disagree with the main intent of what you are saying here. But of course I was expressing my opinion and as many will know Im not averse to working my butt off to continually push forward

I guess my point all along is that in racing circles especially you are always looking for an edge and if you start from a higher baseline then you have better stuff to work with.

And there is a lot of misrepresentation out there of what is good enough but thats a big can of worms to get into.

[Ivan]

Almost free to all us Dunlop sponsored riders list folk Glen , Honda superbike riders dont qualify. They mainly go barefoot anyhow dont they ??

I had a pair of Yamaha Jandels till one got stolen by the river the other day!

They said rubber onthe wheel is faster than rubber on the heel

[codgyoleracer]

I had a pair of Yamaha Jandels till one got stolen by the river the other day!

They said rubber onthe wheel is faster than rubber on the heel

Yamaha, Dunlop & YSS - a match made in heaven:yes:

[Peter Smith]

Yamaha, Dunlop & YSS - a match made in heaven:yes:

Are you still gonna race the F3 SV??

[slowpoke]

Are you still gonna race the F3 SV??

I can sense GW02 comin' on....check with Palmy Steel and Tube to see if someone has placed an order for more chrome moly tube for a certain tubby Yamaha..........

[roadracingoldfart]

I can sense GW02 comin' on....check with Palmy Steel and Tube to see if someone has placed an order for more chrome moly tube for a certain tubby Yamaha..........

A Harris or Spondon replica frame would be fun , i wonder if the plans are lying around somewhere.
Glens just a copy of the GW01 (long haired version) anyhow :blink:, hes really the GW02 and beyond lol. :innocent:

[Robert Taylor]

Yamaha, Dunlop & YSS - a match made in heaven:yes:

Heck Glen theres not a moment to waste. Best you get your shock(ing) guy to get hold of Yamaha Motor Co ( do send them earplugs first ) to tell them the error of their ways. They would have won ALL of those world titles had they been exclusively using Yesteryears Suspension Science instead of that over-priced Swedishstuff that they have a shareholding in.
And with the new stuff two clicks would cover all the circuits, its all going to be a land of milk and honey! Suspension advice and a lot more besides

[Tony.OK]

Heck Glen theres not a moment to waste. Best you get your shock(ing) guy to get hold of Yamaha Motor Co ( do send them earplugs first ) to tell them the error of their ways. They would have won ALL of those world titles had they been exclusively using Yesteryears Suspension Science instead of that over-priced Swedishstuff that they have a shareholding in.
And with the new stuff two clicks would cover all the circuits, its all going to be a land of milk and honey! Suspension advice and a lot more besides

C'mon Robert..................don't hold back............tell us how ya really feel :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::bleh:

[codgyoleracer]

Heck Glen theres not a moment to waste. Best you get your shock(ing) guy to get hold of Yamaha Motor Co ( do send them earplugs first ) to tell them the error of their ways. They would have won ALL of those world titles had they been exclusively using Yesteryears Suspension Science instead of that over-priced Swedishstuff that they have a shareholding in.
And with the new stuff two clicks would cover all the circuits, its all going to be a land of milk and honey! Suspension advice and a lot more besides


Awesome advice RT, I will get straight onto it, I can visulise the "Yamaha Superior Suspension" logos on the sides of the M1's already.
:yes:

[Robert Taylor]

Awesome advice RT, I will get straight onto it, I can visulise the "Yamaha Superior Suspension" logos on the sides of the M1's already.
:yes:

Dont forget to include ''Yobbos Suspension Services'' !!!!!!

[Peter Smith]

I can sense GW02 comin' on....check with Palmy Steel and Tube to see if someone has placed an order for more chrome moly tube for a certain tubby Yamaha..........

His tubby Yammie is fast enough as it is! Let the other tubby riders on tubby, wobbly bikes at least follow him for a lap or two.:shit::blink::gob:

[codgyoleracer]

I can sense GW02 comin' on....check with Palmy Steel and Tube to see if someone has placed an order for more chrome moly tube for a certain tubby Yamaha..........

That tube you spotted in my shed Spud was extruded Titanium, not that old school chrome-moly........:shit:

[codgyoleracer]

Are you still gonna race the F3 SV??

The SVR is on holiday at the moment , So will continue to enjoy winding you post classic guys up anyway for the meantime. Hoepfully the YSS gear will be good enough to even out the GSXR Suzuki boys 300cc + advantage ?

[Robert Taylor]

The SVR is on holiday at the moment , So will continue to enjoy winding you post classic guys up anyway for the meantime. Hoepfully the YSS gear will be good enough to even out the GSXR Suzuki boys 300cc + advantage ?

Dont kid yourself or anybody else Glenn, its more about your national level riding ability and having done so much of it at the sharp end. ( Thats a compliment )

[codgyoleracer]

Dont kid yourself or anybody else Glenn, its more about your national level riding ability and having done so much of it at the sharp end. ( Thats a compliment )

Dont fully agree with that , i still need a half decent tool beneath me and the YSS suspension does seem to offer more than enough performance to go pretty quick on track.
I have cetainly ridden far poorer handling bikes than the YSS suspended Yamaha - and am very happy where its at, at the moment - with more to come hopefully.
Winter track temperatures and weather conditions will no doubt have some bearing on the matter though from now on aye.

[roogazza]

The SVR is on holiday at the moment , So will continue to enjoy winding you post classic guys up anyway for the meantime. Hoepfully the YSS gear will be good enough to even out the GSXR Suzuki boys 300cc + advantage ?
You forty yet ? retirement can't be that far off, classics are the thin edge of the wedge you know ? Still if ya can do it easy why not I suppose. lol G.

[codgyoleracer]

You forty yet ? retirement can't be that far off, classics are the thin edge of the wedge you know ? Still if ya can do it easy why not I suppose. lol G.

40 !, - Gee , i will definatley take that as a compliment :-), missed you atthe party the other day , but did get to see a vid of some scratchy ole fella with an injured body & an old soozooki bandit, keepin up with some chubby fella on a 184hp spacerocket......... :-)

P.S - are you 50 yet ?

[roogazza]

40 !, - Gee , i will definatley take that as a compliment :-), missed you atthe party the other day , but did get to see a vid of some scratchy ole fella with an injured body & an old soozooki bandit, keepin up with some chubby fella on a 184hp spacerocket......... :-)

P.S - are you 50 yet ?
I didn't think at the time he'd play that vid forever when he made it. Should have put the camera on the front of his ? (but then you wouldn't see anyone !!!!!) lol . 61 , I think it's caught up with me. G.

[Robert Taylor]

C'mon Robert..................don't hold back............tell us how ya really feel :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::bleh:

Yep both eyes wide open. If anyone reading this thread thinks its as easy as getting any XYZ brand out of Asia custom built and performing perfectly straight up ( especially when the builder has limited capacity and experience ) then they think wrong. This is not sour grapes, its reality.
Long standing companies that have had a long history of being at the sharp end of road racing at the very highest levels, have huge R&D facilities and ALSO ( very importantly ) have lots of archival and WELL DEVELOPED AND TESTED spec cards for shock absorbers for period bikes give customers a much better chance of having a shock built that is very close to being on the money straight up. FACT.
We have seen this now 4 times in recent months with a particular Asian brand, 2 in road racing that just were not working, we replaced with custom built Ohlins straight off the ( you guessed it ) archival well tested spec cards. 2 also in vintage MX, one that had been custom built at the service centre in Europe for that brand and it was just appalling, it would have sent the guy to hospital in short order. This is the sort of BS that is going on and only what we are aware of thats come to us.
Companies that have cheaper products invariably also have much less in the way of R&D and frankly, it shows.

This is not like selling fine crystal or headlight bulbs , out the door, its done and everyone is happy. Shock absorber specs are very individual and specific to the specific bike model in terms of the motion ratio that the swingarm and linkage applies to it, also the base spring rate choice. The very top companies exhaustively laboratory test suspension units with equipment that even mid range suspension manufacturers can only dream about, they also exhaustively test them on a cross section of tracks and roads. For them ''good enough'' is never good enough

That does reflect in the end price, and that is true for the cheaper shocks.

Its easy when you are trying to prove something to concentrate on one or two customers and easier again if he is a top racer ( not meaning to take the wind out of your sails Glen, your abilities are undoubted ) but the real test is when you have a few out there, it can all fall to pieces if you cannot attend to or frankly are too lazy to attend to all of your customers needs when they require you. That can happen in dramatic fashion with very unhappy customers, as happened at Timaru during the Road Race Nationals. When customers spend a lot of money and are spun the line ''i can do it better'' but it doesnt actually happen then that really sucks.

We ( CKT ) dont always get it right but have not had any dramatic scenarios and will do the hard yards to keep working at it if there is an individual setup issue. What I am thankful for with our product(s) is that the factories are at a much higher level and what we are sent is subject to a LOT more testing and development prior to being released. Plus they are right at the forefront of technology, leaders, not followers / copiers.

[Tony.OK]

Oh heck!..............well I guess I did ask:innocent:

Will catch up with ya next Fri Robert? Need to get this front end sorted a little betterer.

[SS90]

Yep both eyes wide open. If anyone reading this thread thinks its as easy as getting any XYZ brand out of Asia custom built and performing perfectly straight up ( especially when the builder has limited capacity and experience ) then they think wrong. This is not sour grapes, its reality.
Long standing companies that have had a long history of being at the sharp end of road racing at the very highest levels, have huge R&D facilities and ALSO ( very importantly ) have lots of archival and WELL DEVELOPED AND TESTED spec cards for shock absorbers for period bikes give customers a much better chance of having a shock built that is very close to being on the money straight up. FACT.
We have seen this now 4 times in recent months with a particular Asian brand, 2 in road racing that just were not working, we replaced with custom built Ohlins straight off the ( you guessed it ) archival well tested spec cards. 2 also in vintage MX, one that had been custom built at the service centre in Europe for that brand and it was just appalling, it would have sent the guy to hospital in short order. This is the sort of BS that is going on and only what we are aware of thats come to us.
Companies that have cheaper products invariably also have much less in the way of R&D and frankly, it shows.

This is not like selling fine crystal or headlight bulbs , out the door, its done and everyone is happy. Shock absorber specs are very individual and specific to the specific bike model in terms of the motion ratio that the swingarm and linkage applies to it, also the base spring rate choice. The very top companies exhaustively laboratory test suspension units with equipment that even mid range suspension manufacturers can only dream about, they also exhaustively test them on a cross section of tracks and roads. For them ''good enough'' is never good enough

That does reflect in the end price, and that is true for the cheaper shocks.

Its easy when you are trying to prove something to concentrate on one or two customers and easier again if he is a top racer ( not meaning to take the wind out of your sails Glen, your abilities are undoubted ) but the real test is when you have a few out there, it can all fall to pieces if you cannot attend to or frankly are too lazy to attend to all of your customers needs when they require you. That can happen in dramatic fashion with very unhappy customers, as happened at Timaru during the Road Race Nationals. When customers spend a lot of money and are spun the line ''i can do it better'' but it doesnt actually happen then that really sucks.

We ( CKT ) dont always get it right but have not had any dramatic scenarios and will do the hard yards to keep working at it if there is an individual setup issue. What I am thankful for with our product(s) is that the factories are at a much higher level and what we are sent is subject to a LOT more testing and development prior to being released. Plus they are right at the forefront of technology, leaders, not followers / copiers.

The issue is Robert, that in NZ, the concept of "quality come with price" remains a foreign concept.

The "can do Kiwi attitude" is a great thing, but such attitudes do not cover all situations.

"tall Poppy syndrome" is also an issue (everywhere in the world, but it sadly is strong in NZ).

I read (spurious) claims of "as good/better than Öhlins" from many suspension manufacturers, but, when all is said and done, even at the highest level there is, Honda (who own Showa), just changed to Öhlins on Danny Pedrosa's bike.

Now, competition brings technology (as do wars), and if a suspension company was to appear that was to actually push a specialist company like Öhlins, then I am sure you would welcome the challenge.

Personally, I have experience with YSS suspension, and, to date, none of it is good.

I am not saying that won't change, but, like I say, to date, it is not good.

Suspension units completely worn out after 3000KM (road), and suppliers totally unwilling to do anything for you.

I am no suspension expert, far from it, but, I do build high performance two strokes for a living, and I know quality of material when I see it.

So far, to date, YSS shock bodies seem (to me) to be made out cheap material, and, oddly, the price is not really that much lower than European brands.

My concern is how they market themselves "World class suspension" is the phrase they use.

They are made "in Asia", and, in time, this will be better than it is today, but, the fact is, the YSS stuff is lower quality than they claim it to be.

[SWERVE]

Like your first few comments ss90......... spot on. Have to battle those attitudes at work everyday. And the cheap/"she,ll be alright" version will ALWAYS come back and bite ya.

[PeeJay]

Yep both eyes wide open. If anyone reading this thread thinks its as easy as getting any XYZ brand out of Asia custom built and performing perfectly straight up ( especially when the builder has limited capacity and experience ) then they think wrong. This is not sour grapes, its reality.
Long standing companies that have had a long history of being at the sharp end of road racing at the very highest levels, have huge R&D facilities and ALSO ( very importantly ) have lots of archival and WELL DEVELOPED AND TESTED spec cards for shock absorbers for period bikes give customers a much better chance of having a shock built that is very close to being on the money straight up. FACT.
We have seen this now 4 times in recent months with a particular Asian brand, 2 in road racing that just were not working, we replaced with custom built Ohlins straight off the ( you guessed it ) archival well tested spec cards. 2 also in vintage MX, one that had been custom built at the service centre in Europe for that brand and it was just appalling, it would have sent the guy to hospital in short order. This is the sort of BS that is going on and only what we are aware of thats come to us.
Companies that have cheaper products invariably also have much less in the way of R&D and frankly, it shows.

This is not like selling fine crystal or headlight bulbs , out the door, its done and everyone is happy. Shock absorber specs are very individual and specific to the specific bike model in terms of the motion ratio that the swingarm and linkage applies to it, also the base spring rate choice. The very top companies exhaustively laboratory test suspension units with equipment that even mid range suspension manufacturers can only dream about, they also exhaustively test them on a cross section of tracks and roads. For them ''good enough'' is never good enough

That does reflect in the end price, and that is true for the cheaper shocks.

Its easy when you are trying to prove something to concentrate on one or two customers and easier again if he is a top racer ( not meaning to take the wind out of your sails Glen, your abilities are undoubted ) but the real test is when you have a few out there, it can all fall to pieces if you cannot attend to or frankly are too lazy to attend to all of your customers needs when they require you. That can happen in dramatic fashion with very unhappy customers, as happened at Timaru during the Road Race Nationals. When customers spend a lot of money and are spun the line ''i can do it better'' but it doesnt actually happen then that really sucks.

We ( CKT ) dont always get it right but have not had any dramatic scenarios and will do the hard yards to keep working at it if there is an individual setup issue. What I am thankful for with our product(s) is that the factories are at a much higher level and what we are sent is subject to a LOT more testing and development prior to being released. Plus they are right at the forefront of technology, leaders, not followers / copiers.

What can I say?
Sour Grapes? you said it
What are you afraid of Robert?
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" or in this case Robert doth protest too much.
Do you think you are the only person who knows anything?
Do you think everyone is so stupid you have to save them from themselves?
You now have 4 examples of "that Asian brand" which just dont work
And the veiled attack on one of their service agents
Whats next, full page ads in the local motorcycle press?
Are YSS really taking so many sales from you that you are reduced to employing pysops techniques to halt this evil?

You are an Ohlins evangalist, Ohlins equivalent to Jerry Falwell, banging on about it every chance you get.
YSS is the DEVIL incarnate and is out to entrap the poor and misguided unless you save them.
"Father, oops I mean Robert, forgive them, for they know not what they do"

and SS90
suck up all you like but you arent telling the whole truth about your YSS experience are you
Were you a tall poppy before you were cut down to size by the great unwashed?
Tall poppy syndrome? the only people to complain about tall poppy syndrome are thin skinned crybabies with an overinflated sense of their own worth, who dont know what to do when some one calls them an idiot.
I could be wrong of course, its happened before, once.
have a nice day!

[slowpoke]

Tall poppy syndrome? the only people to complain about tall poppy syndrome are thin skinned crybabies with an overinflated sense of their own worth, who dont know what to do when some one calls them an idiot.


What a load of shite. Dragging other people down doesn't make you any taller.

[sinfull]

Wow ! Ya win a race or two and look what happens, ya thread gets taken over and ya bike gets picked to bits ! Thats it, i'm buying a harley ! Heaven forbid that i should ever win a race !



Oh by the way, nice riding Glen !

[schrodingers cat]

Robert,
at your hourly charge out rate, how much time = money have you devoted to slamming YSS/promoting Ohlins in this thread?

Is this an effective spend given the potential albeit target market?

By your actions haven't you drawn additional attention to the brand than otherwise would have occured?

Answer in less than 30 words (if you can)

[Robert Taylor]

Robert,
at your hourly charge out rate, how much time = money have you devoted to slamming YSS/promoting Ohlins in this thread?

Is this an effective spend given the potential albeit target market?

By your actions haven't you drawn additional attention to the brand than otherwise would have occured?

Answer in less than 30 words (if you can)

Well it certainly seems that SS90 ( I have no idea who he is ) has reinforced that there is some substance to my ''evangelical crusade''. Another dissatisfied user that has analysed things a little further behind the facade and has had a less than satisfactory experience.

Ive seen this with rear drive chains, theres a lot of stuff made in mainland Asia, may on the face of it look the same but I beg to say that the tolerances and material quality is not as good, neither is the longevity.

Similarly where I see someone incapable of looking after ALL of his customers properly ( instead of a couple of race winners ) and ends up giving the product that I distribute a bad name Im not going to sweep it under the carpet.

No apologies for daring to say it as it actually is. Caveat emptor.

[codgyoleracer]

Yep both eyes wide open. If anyone reading this thread thinks its as easy as getting any XYZ brand out of Asia custom built and performing perfectly straight up ( especially when the builder has limited capacity and experience ) then they think wrong. This is not sour grapes, its reality.
Long standing companies that have had a long history of being at the sharp end of road racing at the very highest levels, have huge R&D facilities and ALSO ( very importantly ) have lots of archival and WELL DEVELOPED AND TESTED spec cards for shock absorbers for period bikes give customers a much better chance of having a shock built that is very close to being on the money straight up. FACT.
We have seen this now 4 times in recent months with a particular Asian brand, 2 in road racing that just were not working, we replaced with custom built Ohlins straight off the ( you guessed it ) archival well tested spec cards. 2 also in vintage MX, one that had been custom built at the service centre in Europe for that brand and it was just appalling, it would have sent the guy to hospital in short order. This is the sort of BS that is going on and only what we are aware of thats come to us.
Companies that have cheaper products invariably also have much less in the way of R&D and frankly, it shows.

This is not like selling fine crystal or headlight bulbs , out the door, its done and everyone is happy. Shock absorber specs are very individual and specific to the specific bike model in terms of the motion ratio that the swingarm and linkage applies to it, also the base spring rate choice. The very top companies exhaustively laboratory test suspension units with equipment that even mid range suspension manufacturers can only dream about, they also exhaustively test them on a cross section of tracks and roads. For them ''good enough'' is never good enough

That does reflect in the end price, and that is true for the cheaper shocks.

Its easy when you are trying to prove something to concentrate on one or two customers and easier again if he is a top racer ( not meaning to take the wind out of your sails Glen, your abilities are undoubted ) but the real test is when you have a few out there, it can all fall to pieces if you cannot attend to or frankly are too lazy to attend to all of your customers needs when they require you. That can happen in dramatic fashion with very unhappy customers, as happened at Timaru during the Road Race Nationals. When customers spend a lot of money and are spun the line ''i can do it better'' but it doesnt actually happen then that really sucks.

We ( CKT ) dont always get it right but have not had any dramatic scenarios and will do the hard yards to keep working at it if there is an individual setup issue. What I am thankful for with our product(s) is that the factories are at a much higher level and what we are sent is subject to a LOT more testing and development prior to being released. Plus they are right at the forefront of technology, leaders, not followers / copiers.

Well, Well , Well, - all very interesting.
In a previous post on this thread i complimented Roberts Taylors products and services as one of the best in the industry - and i still vey much stand by that. However after the above i feel the need to explain further on why i have found the YSS product and their servicing to be more than adequate for my race uses.

To claim that my choice of service agent (Kerry Dukic) Dukic Suspension is QUOTE RT "has limited capacity and experience" - is somewhat perplexing considering that Dukic is the suspension tuner that fettled & won this years 600cc production championship and also my last two F3 championships.

As far as build quality is concerned - and the claim that this equipment is imminently "about to fall to pieces" - well, all i can say is that currently i have had no issues thus far- And even if we did - i have the utmost confidence in the YSS New Zealand importer and their service agent to sort any issues that arise. I have seen their investment in stock and parts and have also experienced their custom parts service and supply times - and they are as good as anyones in New Zealand.

Price !, :-) , - I own a company that imports millions of dollars of specialty components from all over the world (and we make a point of visiting all of our suppliers on a regular basis). I know for a fact people that some very very high quality products are manufactured in some of the poorer countries of this world. Just because they are poor doesnt mean they are stupid !, and they have access to world-class manufacturing machinery just like many other countries.
Often manufacturing costs are lower simply because their overhead costs (labour, Governmental control, local freight, export freight cost, limited union involvement, local raw materials) - all these things add up to reducing the cost of end products - and doesnt always mean greatly reduced quality.

To repeat - i am pleased with my YSS experience thus far, and hopefully there is more to come !, My advice to any racer or rider is to keep an open mind and consider all options when fitting any parts / consumables to your bike. This would included tyre options, brakepads, chains, Oils, Suspension, Fuels etc etc, new ideas or more efficient methods do evolve and appear on the market and sometimes these are worth considering.

Glen Williams

[codgyoleracer]

Wow ! Ya win a race or two and look what happens, ya thread gets taken over and ya bike gets picked to bits ! Thats it, i'm buying a harley ! Heaven forbid that i should ever win a race !



Oh by the way, nice riding Glen !

HaHa , its all good stuff !, RT and I get on bloody well truth be known ! - but ihave dared to wander out from the blue and gold umbrella ! :-), - has been an interesting & pleasing ride so far

[Robert Taylor]

Well, Well , Well, - all very interesting.
In a previous post on this thread i complimented Roberts Taylors products and services as one of the best in the industry - and i still vey much stand by that. However after the above i feel the need to explain further on why i have found the YSS product and their servicing to be more than adequate for my race uses.

To claim that my choice of service agent (Kerry Dukic) Dukic Suspension is QUOTE RT "has limited capacity and experience" - is somewhat perplexing considering that Dukic is the suspension tuner that fettled & won this years 600cc production championship and also my last two F3 championships.

As far as build quality is concerned - and the claim that this equipment is imminently "about to fall to pieces" - well, all i can say is that currently i have had no issues thus far- And even if we did - i have the utmost confidence in the YSS New Zealand importer and their service agent to sort any issues that arise. I have seen their investment in stock and parts and have also experienced their custom parts service and supply times - and they are as good as anyones in New Zealand.

Price !, :-) , - I own a company that imports millions of dollars of specialty components from all over the world (and we make a point of visiting all of our suppliers on a regular basis). I know for a fact people that some very very high quality products are manufactured in some of the poorer countries of this world. Just because they are poor doesnt mean they are stupid !, and they have access to world-class manufacturing machinery just like many other countries.
Often manufacturing costs are lower simply because their overhead costs (labour, Governmental control, local freight, export freight cost, limited union involvement, local raw materials) - all these things add up to reducing the cost of end products - and doesnt always mean greatly reduced quality.

To repeat - i am pleased with my YSS experience thus far, and hopefully there is more to come !, My advice to any racer or rider is to keep an open mind and consider all options when fitting any parts / consumables to your bike. This would included tyre options, brakepads, chains, Oils, Suspension, Fuels etc etc, new ideas or more efficient methods do evolve and appear on the market and sometimes these are worth considering.

Glen Williams

Fair reply Glenn but I still stand by my remarks of limited capacity and experience. That has shown through with some very disgruntled customers who werent recieving the attention promised and occured some very expensive damage due to suspension settings that to not put too fine a point on it were whacko. I saw inside the stuff afterwards and it was just disgusting, I dont want anyone with that lack of care working on the highest quality suspension.
If we are talking championships bring it on, theres a bit of catching up to do! But a measure of doing the job properly is not only about that ( its easy to pick race winners! ) its also about keeping your other customers happy and to stop them from struggling and crashing meeting after meeting after meeting.
We also struggle from time to time to get bikes dialed in quickly but we dont give up nor do we stray off on tangents that would be frowned upon from our main suppliers.
Caveat emptor.

[Robert Taylor]

Well, Well , Well, - all very interesting.
In a previous post on this thread i complimented Roberts Taylors products and services as one of the best in the industry - and i still vey much stand by that. However after the above i feel the need to explain further on why i have found the YSS product and their servicing to be more than adequate for my race uses.

To claim that my choice of service agent (Kerry Dukic) Dukic Suspension is QUOTE RT "has limited capacity and experience" - is somewhat perplexing considering that Dukic is the suspension tuner that fettled & won this years 600cc production championship and also my last two F3 championships.

As far as build quality is concerned - and the claim that this equipment is imminently "about to fall to pieces" - well, all i can say is that currently i have had no issues thus far- And even if we did - i have the utmost confidence in the YSS New Zealand importer and their service agent to sort any issues that arise. I have seen their investment in stock and parts and have also experienced their custom parts service and supply times - and they are as good as anyones in New Zealand.

Price !, :-) , - I own a company that imports millions of dollars of specialty components from all over the world (and we make a point of visiting all of our suppliers on a regular basis). I know for a fact people that some very very high quality products are manufactured in some of the poorer countries of this world. Just because they are poor doesnt mean they are stupid !, and they have access to world-class manufacturing machinery just like many other countries.
Often manufacturing costs are lower simply because their overhead costs (labour, Governmental control, local freight, export freight cost, limited union involvement, local raw materials) - all these things add up to reducing the cost of end products - and doesnt always mean greatly reduced quality.

To repeat - i am pleased with my YSS experience thus far, and hopefully there is more to come !, My advice to any racer or rider is to keep an open mind and consider all options when fitting any parts / consumables to your bike. This would included tyre options, brakepads, chains, Oils, Suspension, Fuels etc etc, new ideas or more efficient methods do evolve and appear on the market and sometimes these are worth considering.

Glen Williams

Fair reply Glenn but I still stand by my remarks of limited capacity and experience. That has shown through with some very disgruntled customers who werent recieving the attention promised and occured some very expensive damage due to suspension settings that to not put too fine a point on it were whacko. I saw inside the stuff afterwards and it was just disgusting, I dont want anyone with that lack of care working on the highest quality suspension.
If we are talking championships bring it on, theres a bit of catching up to do! But a measure of doing the job properly is not only about that ( its easy to pick race winners! ) its also about keeping your other customers happy and to stop them from struggling and crashing meeting after meeting after meeting.
We also struggle from time to time to get bikes dialed in quickly but we dont give up nor do we stray off on tangents that would be frowned upon from our main suppliers.
Caveat emptor.

[scracha]

Robert, as in any industry there's good, everage and cowboys. Regardless of this, it's not a good look to bad-mouth another supplier. By all means, say "that's a very shite job" etc etc when you come across something you've been ASKED to fix/check and most customers will put 2 and 2 together, tell their mates, etc etc. Word quickly gets around about poor quality and service. Similarly, word gets around about great service. You're really not doing yourself any favors here.

I always let my work do the talking for me. (and yes, sometimes I make cockups)

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, as in any industry there's good, everage and cowboys. Regardless of this, it's not a good look to bad-mouth another supplier. By all means, say "that's a very shite job" etc etc when you come across something you've been ASKED to fix/check and most customers will put 2 and 2 together, tell their mates, etc etc. Word quickly gets around about poor quality and service. Similarly, word gets around about great service. You're really not doing yourself any favors here.

I always let my work do the talking for me. (and yes, sometimes I make cockups)

Of course its always a fine line over what is ''badmouthing'' and what is also a legitimate need to say hey ''is the product being made out to be more than what it is'' etc. Given that I have personally and very recently come across some installations that had the capacity to at minimum injure I think its very legitimate to state so publicly. In this game of road racing and MX the power to send someone out on an unsafe bike is a real issue. When that happens with the products we distribute Im particularly concerned, but it is concerning that anyone goes out on an unsafe bike, irrespective of what p[roducts are fitted. A top rider nearly lost his life at a big international meeting a handful of years back due to an incorrect Ohlins steering damper kit being fitted, and poorly so by all accounts
So Ill take the credit for being up front and transparent, unfortunately there is a lot of skulduggery that goes on behind the scenes that I am well aware of. But I justify my actions on the pretence of safety and that people should have both eyes wide open when considering purchasing an unfamiliar product.

Indeed the price difference to our well proven Swedish product is now not that great, given the renegotiated prices we have from Sweden ( pointed out by SS90 )

Speaking about safety how the flipping heck did you ride that bike? The forks were awful. They are now straight and aswe speak Race Tech emulators ( with our specific road race settings ) and Ohlins springs are being installed. They will be night and day better.

[schrodingers cat]

Well it certainly seems that SS90 ( I have no idea who he is ) has reinforced that there is some substance to my ''evangelical crusade''. Another dissatisfied user that has analysed things a little further behind the facade and has had a less than satisfactory experience.

Ive seen this with rear drive chains, theres a lot of stuff made in mainland Asia, may on the face of it look the same but I beg to say that the tolerances and material quality is not as good, neither is the longevity.

Similarly where I see someone incapable of looking after ALL of his customers properly ( instead of a couple of race winners ) and ends up giving the product that I distribute a bad name Im not going to sweep it under the carpet.

No apologies for daring to say it as it actually is. Caveat emptor.

That is more than 30 words

[crazy man]

the first thing me and glen changed on the yss Suspension made 1.5 sec diffient in lap times so we new we were on a winner with yss. and it seem to have a lot finer setting than most Suspensions units.

[roadracingoldfart]

Speaking about safety how the flipping heck did you ride that bike? The forks were awful. They are now straight and aswe speak Race Tech emulators ( with our specific road race settings ) and Ohlins springs are being installed. They will be night and day better.

I never had an issue riding it Robert , mind you , im old and thats what i am used to (bent , musshy , inconsistant , underdamped etc) .

I straightened them after his monumental get off at Taupo and got them to within 4thou but Steve being Steve , he crashes a wee bit so they will bend again lol.
Hes made me a promise to keep it wheels down so heres to progress.

Paul.

[scracha]

Speaking about safety how the flipping heck did you ride that bike? The forks were awful. They are now straight and aswe speak Race Tech emulators ( with our specific road race settings ) and Ohlins springs are being installed. They will be night and day better.
It's all relative Robert. I'm used to $hite old bad handling bikes. Hey, when I got that bike I rode it for 4 rounds before realising the rear shock wasn't leaking simply because there was no oil left to leak out. A year later I realised the forks were bent as we couldn't get the damn things back on LOL. So bent the springs weren't doing their job. The bike handled 10x better after Paul got his hands on it so if it's good as you say it'll now handle 100x better.

As for safety, again, motorcyclists know the risks and if they get spat off due to over-pushing a poorly set-up bike, then as you often say, caveat emptor. Semper paratus and all that. A word or two directly to them about how something isn't set-up correctly will see you a lot better off in the long-term than publicly slating the installer. They're less likely to get defensive. You won't look like you're bitching. They may go back to the original installer to get it rectified (how the original installer handles this is up to them). They may get a third opinion. They're more likely to use you the next time.

Put simply, IMHO you'd be much better trying to tempt that fast old ginger fellah back to your fold with takes of how much faster he could be with your set-up than bad mouthing his current set-up.

ps. I hope my comments haven't increased my bill.

[Robert Taylor]

the first thing me and glen changed on the yss Suspension made 1.5 sec diffient in lap times so we new we were on a winner with yss. and it seem to have a lot finer setting than most Suspensions units.

Not splitting hairs ( at all ) but in all sincerity 1.5 seconds is easy to find in the roughing out stages when you are getting the fundamentals of chassis geometry, oil level and springing right with a new project ( with any suspension ) But the increments you find further to that get progressively smaller and more difficult. Glen will certainly concur with that!

At that same meeting we were playing with Choppas BMW and I guess we found some big increments too with geometry, spring changes and an incremental front fork valving change, more to test at the next meeting. As much of the improvement would have been Sloan getting used to the bike and more and more comfortable with the feel of it. In the rear we did one spring change only and didnt go inside that shock all weekend, so the setting was pretty good out of the box, at least with that model. But with the arrival of more torque and horsepower I expect we are going to be into that shock pretty quickly and more than once.

And just for interest......

A big misconception ( and I am talking about almost all coventional spring damper units of all brands ) is that the external clickers somehow have a magically wide adjustment range. That is actually not so, especially on the compression clickers. The compression clickers if they are arranged on the reservoir can ( most usually ) actually help to meter only the flow of oil into that reservoir, pushed only by the displacement of the shaft. That is typically only 12 to 13% of total mass flow. If the clickers are not in the sweet spot of responsive adjustment range then its because the internal valving stack is not in the right range for the application and therefore needs changing. That is where a solid database of alternative settings and knowledge from an experienced manufacturer can really pay dividends. Also most rebound adjusters on conventional shocks are a bypass bleed arranged through the centre of the shaft. Unless there is a flow seperating poppet valve that bleed circuit cross talks ie it flows not only on rebound stroke but also compression stroke. Adjustment of rebound can therefore also have a significant effect on compression ''feeling'' so its always good practice to get your rebound adjusted first and then fine tune your compression adjusters thereafter. High end racing shocks eg Ohlins TTX36, TTX40, new prototypes currently under test, some WP and some Penske models totally seperate compression and rebound functions, that makes life a whole load easier for everybody.

Manufacturers always wrestle with establishing ''how much should one click change the damping'' I believe most would agree that one click should be noticable to most riders of varying skill levels but then should not be such a big change that leads them to think it really only needed half of that. If on the other hand the click increments are too fine to be noticed thats not so good.

Heres an interesting one that makes sense when you sit down and analyse it. We do the lions share of work in the Superbike class and for whatever reasons the Ohlins TTX36 is the shock of choice with Ray intermittently competing with his WP shocks ( and excellent they are too ) With Superbikes the element of acceleration squat control becomes way way more important than in the other classes as the damn things have so much horsepower trying to tie them in knots. The internal valving spec becomes all important. If we have a compression valving spec that is slightly too firm spec the temptation is to take the compression clicker out a few clicks further. But we know from experience that there is a point you cannot go beyond as the bike just turns into a wobbly jelly as there is too much bypass bleed making the chassis too reactive to engine torque inputs. That also further delays the opening point of the shim stack so it makes things worse, if anything. The click setting we can go to is not that far removed from the ideal bleed setting. The answer is to revalve. Theres a cynical argument to suggest that racing shocks should perhaps only have about a 5 click adjustment range as the correct bypass bleed range and shim stack setting becomes so critical to balance out often competing requirements of maximising grip, having just enough acceleration squat for weight transference ( and not too much ) and getting the suspension to put just the right amount of heat and ''stress'' into the tyres. ( I am talking high horsepower brutal Superbikes with semi nervous geometry )

Superbikes are of course the most extreme example and the trickiest to setup. Lower horsepower bikes will be much more ''resilient'' to a wider clicker change setting, although dividends can also be found with revalving. Unfortunately not all shocks are designed to have internal setting changes performed quickly and with little fuss. OEM shocks being the hardest to work with as you cannot perform internal setting changes or even fundamental tracside spring preload changes anywhere near as quickly as a thoroughbred race shock. Factors like that are really important when their arent enough suspension engineers around.

[Robert Taylor]

It's all relative Robert. I'm used to $hite old bad handling bikes. Hey, when I got that bike I rode it for 4 rounds before realising the rear shock wasn't leaking simply because there was no oil left to leak out. A year later I realised the forks were bent as we couldn't get the damn things back on LOL. So bent the springs weren't doing their job. The bike handled 10x better after Paul got his hands on it so if it's good as you say it'll now handle 100x better.

As for safety, again, motorcyclists know the risks and if they get spat off due to over-pushing a poorly set-up bike, then as you often say, caveat emptor. Semper paratus and all that. A word or two directly to them about how something isn't set-up correctly will see you a lot better off in the long-term than publicly slating the installer. They're less likely to get defensive. You won't look like you're bitching. They may go back to the original installer to get it rectified (how the original installer handles this is up to them). They may get a third opinion. They're more likely to use you the next time.

Put simply, IMHO you'd be much better trying to tempt that fast old ginger fellah back to your fold with takes of how much faster he could be with your set-up than bad mouthing his current set-up.

ps. I hope my comments haven't increased my bill.

Ive only actually expressed the limitations and already told him in good humour that hed be faster with the good Swedish stuff! I have no doubt that in spite of other reservations his suspension guy will be getting decent results out of it.

Our bills are always fair and the added value will be setup help trackside!

[Robert Taylor]

I never had an issue riding it Robert , mind you , im old and thats what i am used to (bent , musshy , inconsistant , underdamped etc) .

I straightened them after his monumental get off at Taupo and got them to within 4thou but Steve being Steve , he crashes a wee bit so they will bend again lol.
Hes made me a promise to keep it wheels down so heres to progress.

Paul.


Believe me it was so far off ( with what we are used to, no criticism as such ) he is going to fizz at the difference. The flipside being that if he does fall off ( and touch wood I hope it doesnt happen ) he will be able to do so at a higher corner speed!

[roadracingoldfart]

Believe me it was so far off ( with what we are used to, no criticism as such ) he is going to fizz at the difference. The flipside being that if he does fall off ( and touch wood I hope it doesnt happen ) he will be able to do so at a higher corner speed!


HIGHER CORNER SPEED :gob:....... hes fucked.:shit::shutup:

[scracha]

HIGHER CORNER SPEED :gob:....... hes fucked.:shit::shutup:
Taupo A1 corner flat out here I come!!!!!!!


Hopefully Glen and the other senior bikes won't be lapping me so quickly now.

[slowpoke]

Despite some of the invective from folks who don't understand RT's passion for what he does and how he does it, there's still some interesting info in what must be the most discussed ride report in KB history. Thanks to those who have provided informative/constructive input.

I only came back to NZ about 4 years ago after nearly 20 years in Oz, and coincidentally took the first steps down the road to bankruptcy by starting racing about the same time. The very first test day I went to at Manfeild I met a bloke on a virtually stock SV650. I was a noob on a well worn R1 but I can still remember thinking "Who the FUCK is that bloke?!" as he motored past again and again. Even then you could see the gears turning in this blokes head as he plotted and schemed the path to improvement for that plain jane lil' SV.

Then I saw some footage of him on a Superbike at Wanga's, and I didn't feel quite so bad. Of course it wasn't the common or garden variety GSXR, he had chosen that most challenging/frustrating of superbike tools, a Kawa-bloody-saki ZX10R.

And of course he doesn't take the easy way out by working 9-5 in someone elses business either, he backed himself from an early age and runs his own.

So apart from learning he's an approachable, hell of a nice bloke, it's also obvious Glen likes to take the path less travelled.

So it is with the YSS stuff I reckon. After seeing that "beige" SV morph into something Harris or Spondon would be proud of I've no doubt he will be relishing the challenge of doing something a lil' different. It will just be the salt on his chips I reckon.

Robert on the other hand is a pure and (not so) simple perfectionist. There is only one way to do something and that's the best way you know how. Take a look at his workshop sometime, no dusty shelves or bins full of useless, broke crap lying about, it's exactly how you'd imagine a minimalist OCD clean Swedish workshop to be: who knew Ikea had an industrial catalog?

Far from being afraid of change he can't seem to wait for the next revelation that allows him to pass on improvements and looks for ways to improve things to suit NZ conditions. Check out the race tracks and roads in Europe or the US, they are a far cry from what we see in NZ. That's not to say he will force the most expensive solution on everyone, I've personally experienced a tailored (Taylor-ed?) package for that tired R1 that suited my L-plate racer status (how little has changed....). It wasn't "Warehouse" cheap but it suited my limited ridng and financial needs perfectly. So I can see Robert finding it perversely frustrating that someone of Glens calibre would deliberately choose a worse starting point than he has to.

Different goals ya see: Robert would just like to see Glen go as fast as humanly possible on the "jello-express", whereas I get the feeling Glen doesn't just want to go fast, he thrives on the development experience as well. The challenge and therefore personal satisfaction would be considerably reduced if he just took the path of least resistance. It's that old motorcycling/life mantra: the journey is just as important as the destination.

Kerry is probably somewhere between the two. He's got a hell of an imagination and dreams up lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat.......some of them may involve an anti-gravity chamber, but I digress. For all the stories you hear (both from him and about him) he's a pretty smart cat himself and isn't afraid to try something left field. Which I guess is where the YSS gear comes in. He knows it's not WP/Ohlins/Penske but he'll be thinking that a lot of folks, rightly/or wrongly can't/won't justify that expenditure so in true entrepeneurial spirit he's trying to satisfy what he sees as a demand in the market place. Time will tell whether they get more, less or exactly what they pay for.

So, 3 different people tackling the road racing conundrum from 3 very different angles, usually at the same time and place. Interesting times.....

For myself, I haven't got an ounce of Glen's talent/experience, but I'm determined to improve after a crap last season floundering on a new bike. Unfortunately time is my biggest enemy and I can't get to the track that often. So as part of my plan I'm happy to pay good money for the premium products/services/back-up provided by CKT and their lil smurf-wagon/tardis. I see it as not just the fast track to improvement but insurance against more of the expensive mistakes I've made in the past. Someone else with different circumstances will try something different but that's what makes it all so interesting eh? What else are we gonna talk about over a few beers once we've finished discussing the lingerie Craig is wearing under his leathers this weekend?

I'm not gonna 'pologise for the waffle, I've got a gutful of axle grease masquerading as coffee and on my 21st 12 hour nightshift with 7 more to go, be thankful I didn't write even more shite........yes, there's plenty more crap where this came from..........

[codgyoleracer]

Not splitting hairs ( at all ) but in all sincerity 1.5 seconds is easy to find in the roughing out stages when you are getting the fundamentals of chassis geometry, oil level and springing right with a new project ( with any suspension ) But the increments you find further to that get progressively smaller and more difficult. Glen will certainly concur with that!

At that same meeting we were playing with Choppas BMW and I guess we found some big increments too with geometry, spring changes and an incremental front fork valving change, more to test at the next meeting. As much of the improvement would have been Sloan getting used to the bike and more and more comfortable with the feel of it. In the rear we did one spring change only and didnt go inside that shock all weekend, so the setting was pretty good out of the box, at least with that model. But with the arrival of more torque and horsepower I expect we are going to be into that shock pretty quickly and more than once.

And just for interest......

A big misconception ( and I am talking about almost all coventional spring damper units of all brands ) is that the external clickers somehow have a magically wide adjustment range. That is actually not so, especially on the compression clickers. The compression clickers if they are arranged on the reservoir can ( most usually ) actually help to meter only the flow of oil into that reservoir, pushed only by the displacement of the shaft. That is typically only 12 to 13% of total mass flow. If the clickers are not in the sweet spot of responsive adjustment range then its because the internal valving stack is not in the right range for the application and therefore needs changing. That is where a solid database of alternative settings and knowledge from an experienced manufacturer can really pay dividends. Also most rebound adjusters on conventional shocks are a bypass bleed arranged through the centre of the shaft. Unless there is a flow seperating poppet valve that bleed circuit cross talks ie it flows not only on rebound stroke but also compression stroke. Adjustment of rebound can therefore also have a significant effect on compression ''feeling'' so its always good practice to get your rebound adjusted first and then fine tune your compression adjusters thereafter. High end racing shocks eg Ohlins TTX36, TTX40, new prototypes currently under test, some WP and some Penske models totally seperate compression and rebound functions, that makes life a whole load easier for everybody.

Manufacturers always wrestle with establishing ''how much should one click change the damping'' I believe most would agree that one click should be noticable to most riders of varying skill levels but then should not be such a big change that leads them to think it really only needed half of that. If on the other hand the click increments are too fine to be noticed thats not so good.

Heres an interesting one that makes sense when you sit down and analyse it. We do the lions share of work in the Superbike class and for whatever reasons the Ohlins TTX36 is the shock of choice with Ray intermittently competing with his WP shocks ( and excellent they are too ) With Superbikes the element of acceleration squat control becomes way way more important than in the other classes as the damn things have so much horsepower trying to tie them in knots. The internal valving spec becomes all important. If we have a compression valving spec that is slightly too firm spec the temptation is to take the compression clicker out a few clicks further. But we know from experience that there is a point you cannot go beyond as the bike just turns into a wobbly jelly as there is too much bypass bleed making the chassis too reactive to engine torque inputs. That also further delays the opening point of the shim stack so it makes things worse, if anything. The click setting we can go to is not that far removed from the ideal bleed setting. The answer is to revalve. Theres a cynical argument to suggest that racing shocks should perhaps only have about a 5 click adjustment range as the correct bypass bleed range and shim stack setting becomes so critical to balance out often competing requirements of maximising grip, having just enough acceleration squat for weight transference ( and not too much ) and getting the suspension to put just the right amount of heat and ''stress'' into the tyres. ( I am talking high horsepower brutal Superbikes with semi nervous geometry )

Superbikes are of course the most extreme example and the trickiest to setup. Lower horsepower bikes will be much more ''resilient'' to a wider clicker change setting, although dividends can also be found with revalving. Unfortunately not all shocks are designed to have internal setting changes performed quickly and with little fuss. OEM shocks being the hardest to work with as you cannot perform internal setting changes or even fundamental tracside spring preload changes anywhere near as quickly as a thoroughbred race shock. Factors like that are really important when their arent enough suspension engineers around.

Great post Rob, very informative

[codgyoleracer]

Despite some of the invective from folks who don't understand RT's passion for what he does and how he does it, there's still some interesting info in what must be the most discussed ride report in KB history. Thanks to those who have provided informative/constructive input.

I only came back to NZ about 4 years ago after nearly 20 years in Oz, and coincidentally took the first steps down the road to bankruptcy by starting racing about the same time. The very first test day I went to at Manfeild I met a bloke on a virtually stock SV650. I was a noob on a well worn R1 but I can still remember thinking "Who the FUCK is that bloke?!" as he motored past again and again. Even then you could see the gears turning in this blokes head as he plotted and schemed the path to improvement for that plain jane lil' SV.

Then I saw some footage of him on a Superbike at Wanga's, and I didn't feel quite so bad. Of course it wasn't the common or garden variety GSXR, he had chosen that most challenging/frustrating of superbike tools, a Kawa-bloody-saki ZX10R.

And of course he doesn't take the easy way out by working 9-5 in someone elses business either, he backed himself from an early age and runs his own.

So apart from learning he's an approachable, hell of a nice bloke, it's also obvious Glen likes to take the path less travelled.

So it is with the YSS stuff I reckon. After seeing that "beige" SV morph into something Harris or Spondon would be proud of I've no doubt he will be relishing the challenge of doing something a lil' different. It will just be the salt on his chips I reckon.

Robert on the other hand is a pure and (not so) simple perfectionist. There is only one way to do something and that's the best way you know how. Take a look at his workshop sometime, no dusty shelves or bins full of useless, broke crap lying about, it's exactly how you'd imagine a minimalist OCD clean Swedish workshop to be: who knew Ikea had an industrial catalog?

Far from being afraid of change he can't seem to wait for the next revelation that allows him to pass on improvements and looks for ways to improve things to suit NZ conditions. Check out the race tracks and roads in Europe or the US, they are a far cry from what we see in NZ. That's not to say he will force the most expensive solution on everyone, I've personally experienced a tailored (Taylor-ed?) package for that tired R1 that suited my L-plate racer status (how little has changed....). It wasn't "Warehouse" cheap but it suited my limited ridng and financial needs perfectly. So I can see Robert finding it perversely frustrating that someone of Glens calibre would deliberately choose a worse starting point than he has to.

Different goals ya see: Robert would just like to see Glen go as fast as humanly possible on the "jello-express", whereas I get the feeling Glen doesn't just want to go fast, he thrives on the development experience as well. The challenge and therefore personal satisfaction would be considerably reduced if he just took the path of least resistance. It's that old motorcycling/life mantra: the journey is just as important as the destination.

Kerry is probably somewhere between the two. He's got a hell of an imagination and dreams up lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat.......some of them may involve an anti-gravity chamber, but I digress. For all the stories you hear (both from him and about him) he's a pretty smart cat himself and isn't afraid to try something left field. Which I guess is where the YSS gear comes in. He knows it's not WP/Ohlins/Penske but he'll be thinking that a lot of folks, rightly/or wrongly can't/won't justify that expenditure so in true entrepeneurial spirit he's trying to satisfy what he sees as a demand in the market place. Time will tell whether they get more, less or exactly what they pay for.

So, 3 different people tackling the road racing conundrum from 3 very different angles, usually at the same time and place. Interesting times.....

For myself, I haven't got an ounce of Glen's talent/experience, but I'm determined to improve after a crap last season floundering on a new bike. Unfortunately time is my biggest enemy and I can't get to the track that often. So as part of my plan I'm happy to pay good money for the premium products/services/back-up provided by CKT and their lil smurf-wagon/tardis. I see it as not just the fast track to improvement but insurance against more of the expensive mistakes I've made in the past. Someone else with different circumstances will try something different but that's what makes it all so interesting eh? What else are we gonna talk about over a few beers once we've finished discussing the lingerie Craig is wearing under his leathers this weekend?

I'm not gonna 'pologise for the waffle, I've got a gutful of axle grease masquerading as coffee and on my 21st 12 hour nightshift with 7 more to go, be thankful I didn't write even more shite........yes, there's plenty more crap where this came from..........

Bugger me if you havent hit a number of rusty nails on the head Spuddly

[codgyoleracer]

Taupo A1 corner flat out here I come!!!!!!!


Hopefully Glen and the other senior bikes won't be lapping me so quickly now.

Big track next time Mr Scracha, so more corners = more opportunities for the smaller bikes????

[Shaun]

OF SUBJECT TO MY GOOD FRIEND KEVIN IN THE UK READING THIS THREAD

I KNOW THE STEARING DAMPER ISSUE< WAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU MATE!!!!!!

Shaun Harris

[codgyoleracer]

the first thing me and glen changed on the yss Suspension made 1.5 sec diffient in lap times so we new we were on a winner with yss. and it seem to have a lot finer setting than most Suspensions units.

True, in the early part of set up we made some big steps forward in lap times with shock setting changes. As times improve of course the window for adjustment becomes ever finer and more delicate !

[scracha]

Big track next time Mr Scracha, so more corners = more opportunities for the smaller bikes????
Smaller WELL RIDDEN bikes. I'm fuckin useless at the full track but it's ace fun.

[roadracingoldfart]

Big track next time Mr Scracha, so more corners = more opportunities for the smaller bikes????


True good sir ....... the sand pit is full of surprises for big bikes.


Smaller WELL RIDDEN bikes. I'm fuckin useless at the full track but it's ace fun.

You are not useless on long track , your useless on every track !!!!
As long as You dont get your muffler turned into a Kenworth Stack again by a bloody triple you will do ok , there is still a few straights to recover places Steve lol.
Anyhow , you have the best tyre in the world keeping you up man.

Paul.

[Biggles08]

Despite some of the invective from folks who don't understand RT's passion for what he does and how he does it, there's still some interesting info in what must be the most discussed ride report in KB history. Thanks to those who have provided informative/constructive input.

I only came back to NZ about 4 years ago after nearly 20 years in Oz, and coincidentally took the first steps down the road to bankruptcy by starting racing about the same time. The very first test day I went to at Manfeild I met a bloke on a virtually stock SV650. I was a noob on a well worn R1 but I can still remember thinking "Who the FUCK is that bloke?!" as he motored past again and again. Even then you could see the gears turning in this blokes head as he plotted and schemed the path to improvement for that plain jane lil' SV.

Then I saw some footage of him on a Superbike at Wanga's, and I didn't feel quite so bad. Of course it wasn't the common or garden variety GSXR, he had chosen that most challenging/frustrating of superbike tools, a Kawa-bloody-saki ZX10R.

And of course he doesn't take the easy way out by working 9-5 in someone elses business either, he backed himself from an early age and runs his own.

So apart from learning he's an approachable, hell of a nice bloke, it's also obvious Glen likes to take the path less travelled.

So it is with the YSS stuff I reckon. After seeing that "beige" SV morph into something Harris or Spondon would be proud of I've no doubt he will be relishing the challenge of doing something a lil' different. It will just be the salt on his chips I reckon.

Robert on the other hand is a pure and (not so) simple perfectionist. There is only one way to do something and that's the best way you know how. Take a look at his workshop sometime, no dusty shelves or bins full of useless, broke crap lying about, it's exactly how you'd imagine a minimalist OCD clean Swedish workshop to be: who knew Ikea had an industrial catalog?

Far from being afraid of change he can't seem to wait for the next revelation that allows him to pass on improvements and looks for ways to improve things to suit NZ conditions. Check out the race tracks and roads in Europe or the US, they are a far cry from what we see in NZ. That's not to say he will force the most expensive solution on everyone, I've personally experienced a tailored (Taylor-ed?) package for that tired R1 that suited my L-plate racer status (how little has changed....). It wasn't "Warehouse" cheap but it suited my limited ridng and financial needs perfectly. So I can see Robert finding it perversely frustrating that someone of Glens calibre would deliberately choose a worse starting point than he has to.

Different goals ya see: Robert would just like to see Glen go as fast as humanly possible on the "jello-express", whereas I get the feeling Glen doesn't just want to go fast, he thrives on the development experience as well. The challenge and therefore personal satisfaction would be considerably reduced if he just took the path of least resistance. It's that old motorcycling/life mantra: the journey is just as important as the destination.

Kerry is probably somewhere between the two. He's got a hell of an imagination and dreams up lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat.......some of them may involve an anti-gravity chamber, but I digress. For all the stories you hear (both from him and about him) he's a pretty smart cat himself and isn't afraid to try something left field. Which I guess is where the YSS gear comes in. He knows it's not WP/Ohlins/Penske but he'll be thinking that a lot of folks, rightly/or wrongly can't/won't justify that expenditure so in true entrepeneurial spirit he's trying to satisfy what he sees as a demand in the market place. Time will tell whether they get more, less or exactly what they pay for.

So, 3 different people tackling the road racing conundrum from 3 very different angles, usually at the same time and place. Interesting times.....

For myself, I haven't got an ounce of Glen's talent/experience, but I'm determined to improve after a crap last season floundering on a new bike. Unfortunately time is my biggest enemy and I can't get to the track that often. So as part of my plan I'm happy to pay good money for the premium products/services/back-up provided by CKT and their lil smurf-wagon/tardis. I see it as not just the fast track to improvement but insurance against more of the expensive mistakes I've made in the past. Someone else with different circumstances will try something different but that's what makes it all so interesting eh? What else are we gonna talk about over a few beers once we've finished discussing the lingerie Craig is wearing under his leathers this weekend?

I'm not gonna 'pologise for the waffle, I've got a gutful of axle grease masquerading as coffee and on my 21st 12 hour nightshift with 7 more to go, be thankful I didn't write even more shite........yes, there's plenty more crap where this came from..........

Bang on the money slowpoke!!! I think we can all get a bit ahead of ourselves sometimes and it pays to step back a bit and take a breath. We all race because we want to go as fast as we can but most of us know there are LOTS working against us achieving that.

I Think if we were all to do the same thing every day we wouldn't get the same progress as a community of racers. This applies to all sorts or things like, tires, bikes, brakes...hell even riding style and body positions. My point is, one shoe does not fit all and depending on your ability and budget we choose what we consider at the time to be the best choice for us.

I admire both Robert Taylor and Kerry Dukie as individuals who know a hell of a lot more than I do when it comes to suspension setup (no kidding!?!) and will listen to either of them when they have something to say about the subject. I will then make my mind up as to what fits with what I'm feeling on the bike. This brings me to my next point... As a racer, I have a big responsibility in communicating my issues to any suspension technician in a manner that they can make adjustments accordingly. I believe this is one of the BIGGEST reasons it takes so long to get a bike set up just right (some tracks more than others). While I understand there are 'basic' good settings, It becomes a little less black and white when you start making adjustments to get better performance. However, at the end of the day I WILL NEVER BLAME EITHER OF THEM IF I CRASH as this is merely cheating myself.

It is SOLELY the racers decision to push or back off according to the feedback he s getting from the bike at any time on the track. I don't buy the 'dangerous' setup thing as if you are any sort of a half decent rider you will immediately know something is not right and slow down. I would hazzard a guess that there a very few racers who would have the cheek to 100% blame the suspension guy for their crash....regardless how good or bad the setup was.

I know, I raced on 100% stock standard suspension setup on my 2007 Kawasaki ZX6R without making one single adjustment from stock settings...I raced it like that throughout the entire summer series 2008 and part way through the winter series 2009. It wasn't until I was confident enough in my riding ability and smart enough to know that the bike was in fact holding me back, did I approach Robert Taylor for help.

Robert kindly made some basic setups for me and was shaking his head in disbelief as he changed my sag, pre-load (the rear shock had none...the spring was just sitting there) and high speed comp. I went out on my bike and immediately felt a HUGE improvement on performance. This was a revelation to me and all of a sudden I could go around corners faster and I had more confidence in the bike. Robert certainly knows his stuff.

Likewise, for one reason or another I ended up using Kerry Dukie at the last round of the Nationals at Levels and found him easy to give feedback to on what I was feeling on the bike. He made some adjustments and bingo, I was immediately faster. I know he knows what he is doing too!

I would also think that YSS suspension would have a place in motorcycle racing in New Zealand and I would be sad to see them not succeed in making Glen go bloody fast on his Yamaha. I dont think (And I certainly wouldn't myself) anyone would dare suggest that just because of this, YSS is far superior to Ohlins!

Oh, for the record, I run a PENSKE in the back of my bike and it is FAR superior to any Swedish shit or Asian ripoff!

as you were..

[Robert Taylor]

Bang on the money slowpoke!!! I think we can all get a bit ahead of ourselves sometimes and it pays to step back a bit and take a breath. We all race because we want to go as fast as we can but most of us know there are LOTS working against us achieving that.

I Think if we were all to do the same thing every day we wouldn't get the same progress as a community of racers. This applies to all sorts or things like, tires, bikes, brakes...hell even riding style and body positions. My point is, one shoe does not fit all and depending on your ability and budget we choose what we consider at the time to be the best choice for us.

I admire both Robert Taylor and Kerry Dukie as individuals who know a hell of a lot more than I do when it comes to suspension setup (no kidding!?!) and will listen to either of them when they have something to say about the subject. I will then make my mind up as to what fits with what I'm feeling on the bike. This brings me to my next point... As a racer, I have a big responsibility in communicating my issues to any suspension technician in a manner that they can make adjustments accordingly. I believe this is one of the BIGGEST reasons it takes so long to get a bike set up just right (some tracks more than others). While I understand there are 'basic' good settings, It becomes a little less black and white when you start making adjustments to get better performance. However, at the end of the day I WILL NEVER BLAME EITHER OF THEM IF I CRASH as this is merely cheating myself.

It is SOLELY the racers decision to push or back off according to the feedback he s getting from the bike at any time on the track. I don't buy the 'dangerous' setup thing as if you are any sort of a half decent rider you will immediately know something is not right and slow down. I would hazzard a guess that there a very few racers who would have the cheek to 100% blame the suspension guy for their crash....regardless how good or bad the setup was.

I know, I raced on 100% stock standard suspension setup on my 2007 Kawasaki ZX6R without making one single adjustment from stock settings...I raced it like that throughout the entire summer series 2008 and part way through the winter series 2009. It wasn't until I was confident enough in my riding ability and smart enough to know that the bike was in fact holding me back, did I approach Robert Taylor for help.

Robert kindly made some basic setups for me and was shaking his head in disbelief as he changed my sag, pre-load (the rear shock had none...the spring was just sitting there) and high speed comp. I went out on my bike and immediately felt a HUGE improvement on performance. This was a revelation to me and all of a sudden I could go around corners faster and I had more confidence in the bike. Robert certainly knows his stuff.

Likewise, for one reason or another I ended up using Kerry Dukie at the last round of the Nationals at Levels and found him easy to give feedback to on what I was feeling on the bike. He made some adjustments and bingo, I was immediately faster. I know he knows what he is doing too!

I would also think that YSS suspension would have a place in motorcycle racing in New Zealand and I would be sad to see them not succeed in making Glen go bloody fast on his Yamaha. I dont think (And I certainly wouldn't myself) anyone would dare suggest that just because of this, YSS is far superior to Ohlins!

Oh, for the record, I run a PENSKE in the back of my bike and it is FAR superior to any Swedish shit or Asian ripoff!

as you were..

Good write up Biggles and some valid points, especially about newcomers struggling to understand setup, there is a LOT to take in. And the best youve ridden is the best you know.

I do though totally buy the reality of dangerous setup. We ( CKT ) do the lions share of road and road race setup in this country, especially at the sharp end. We see a lot of bikes that come through our workshop and trackside and a LOT have setups ( or lack thereof ) that are dangerous. Although it would be impossible to work out the true figures a not insignificant amount of road accidents would be because the bikes are in a dangerous condition, albeit from bad suspension or whatever. Same for the track, weve just worked on a racebike and I understand implicitly why the rider has crashed all too often. Ive been an A grade certified motorcycle engineer since 81 so believe Ive been round the traps a long time.

Love your humour re the Penske, that company does a few things really well and the response range on their high speed adjuster is very very good, as long as you understand it! This company is right at the top of the tree in Nascar and slog it out with Ohlins in Indycars. Not so strong anymore in motorcycle racing though but I have a lot of respect for their engineering.
Race Tech are also producing race shocks but they are not geared up for high volume production and consequently the pricing is very high for race level stuff, well beyond Ohlins and Penske. Its totally fair to say that in motorcycle road racing Ohlins are at the very pinnacle and their ongoing international and national success at the highest levels underscores that. With new developments on the horizon the other participants are going to get left behind, that is one of the strengths of a huge R&D component of their operation.
Relative to this thread it has been suggested by a few that my comments ( Im not afraid to speak up and be up front ) may harm my business. The odd thing is that everytime that such a thing happens my level of business goes up, go figure...

[Robert Taylor]

Bang on the money slowpoke!!! I think we can all get a bit ahead of ourselves sometimes and it pays to step back a bit and take a breath. We all race because we want to go as fast as we can but most of us know there are LOTS working against us achieving that.

I Think if we were all to do the same thing every day we wouldn't get the same progress as a community of racers. This applies to all sorts or things like, tires, bikes, brakes...hell even riding style and body positions. My point is, one shoe does not fit all and depending on your ability and budget we choose what we consider at the time to be the best choice for us.

I admire both Robert Taylor and Kerry Dukie as individuals who know a hell of a lot more than I do when it comes to suspension setup (no kidding!?!) and will listen to either of them when they have something to say about the subject. I will then make my mind up as to what fits with what I'm feeling on the bike. This brings me to my next point... As a racer, I have a big responsibility in communicating my issues to any suspension technician in a manner that they can make adjustments accordingly. I believe this is one of the BIGGEST reasons it takes so long to get a bike set up just right (some tracks more than others). While I understand there are 'basic' good settings, It becomes a little less black and white when you start making adjustments to get better performance. However, at the end of the day I WILL NEVER BLAME EITHER OF THEM IF I CRASH as this is merely cheating myself.

It is SOLELY the racers decision to push or back off according to the feedback he s getting from the bike at any time on the track. I don't buy the 'dangerous' setup thing as if you are any sort of a half decent rider you will immediately know something is not right and slow down. I would hazzard a guess that there a very few racers who would have the cheek to 100% blame the suspension guy for their crash....regardless how good or bad the setup was.

I know, I raced on 100% stock standard suspension setup on my 2007 Kawasaki ZX6R without making one single adjustment from stock settings...I raced it like that throughout the entire summer series 2008 and part way through the winter series 2009. It wasn't until I was confident enough in my riding ability and smart enough to know that the bike was in fact holding me back, did I approach Robert Taylor for help.

Robert kindly made some basic setups for me and was shaking his head in disbelief as he changed my sag, pre-load (the rear shock had none...the spring was just sitting there) and high speed comp. I went out on my bike and immediately felt a HUGE improvement on performance. This was a revelation to me and all of a sudden I could go around corners faster and I had more confidence in the bike. Robert certainly knows his stuff.

Likewise, for one reason or another I ended up using Kerry Dukie at the last round of the Nationals at Levels and found him easy to give feedback to on what I was feeling on the bike. He made some adjustments and bingo, I was immediately faster. I know he knows what he is doing too!

I would also think that YSS suspension would have a place in motorcycle racing in New Zealand and I would be sad to see them not succeed in making Glen go bloody fast on his Yamaha. I dont think (And I certainly wouldn't myself) anyone would dare suggest that just because of this, YSS is far superior to Ohlins!

Oh, for the record, I run a PENSKE in the back of my bike and it is FAR superior to any Swedish shit or Asian ripoff!

as you were..

Another point relative to suspension setup, you mention about the feedback that the rider is getting from the bike. What if he is getting no feedback or feel and therefore cannot feel the limit? That is one of the biggest complaints that is heard in the race paddock, ''no feel''. ''I that why you crashed?, yes''.

That is another part that an experienced suspension engineer has to build into the bike, its importatant to have good feel at both ends, especially the front end. During the winter series last year we introduced Ohlins NIX25 system into Glen Skatchills winter series winning GSXR600. His very first comment was ''amazing feel and feedback''. And contrary to some misbeliefs feel and feedback is not about the suspension being stiff, it can be compliant and also have feel. The reality is that no-one builds a better set of cartridges than Ohlins. That may sound like blatant Ohlins speak but we work on everything.

[Pussy]

But can you fly an F-4, Robert??

No you can't!... and Dukie has personally told me, in all seriousness, that HE has, on covert missions in Afghanistan for the USAF...

Suck on dat!! :p

[KS34]

Are we going to be seeing Mills & Boon sponsorship on the bike this season Spud?

That was beautiful...snif....snif

[scracha]

But can you fly an F-4, Robert??

No you can't!... and Dukie has personally told me, in all seriousness, that HE has, on covert missions in Afghanistan for the USAF...

Suck on dat!! :p
I suppose he was escorting the Vulcan bomber. No wonder they missed Osama.

[Robert Taylor]

Are we going to be seeing Mills & Boon sponsorship on the bike this season Spud?

That was beautiful...snif....snif

Spud is very entertaining yes, and very likeable.

[schrodingers cat]

Relative to this thread it has been suggested by a few that my comments ( Im not afraid to speak up and be up front ) may harm my business. The odd thing is that everytime that such a thing happens my level of business goes up, go figure...

So finally you admit that you're hijacking Glen's race report to tout for business!

Sales Training 101

You may not realise, but you passion comes across as as a form of 'negative sales' (i.e. theirs is shit, you should buy mine)
In sales, you should NEVER name the oppositions product. Talk about the positives of your product - which you have done to the point of broken record - and let the customer decide. The customer has free will
If the customer asks about oppostion product then it is OK to comment on your perception of its weaknesses/drawbacks and reinforce the strenghts of your products/ \services.

Robert, surely you don't NEED to be wasting your time in this post. You are polarising opinion.
Why not do something positive and devote your time to writing some technical articles?
As you rightly say, there are sooooooo many variables that, for a dabbler, all the knowledge without the experience leads to a big ball of tangled string.
By sharing your knowledge you will reinforce the idea in peoples minds of the where to go for good advise.

PS Kerry - RT doesn't strike me as a big listener - maybe gasump him here!

I accept that this post is in the Racing thread but people like myself who don't race have different motivations. I like to tamper. I want to learn for myself. It would be more cost effective for me to pay someone to sort things out for me (other than over capitalising my bike) but my satisfation would be reduced.

On the track, a magic set of XYZ - or O suspension would improve my lap time but it wouldn't suddenly make me a better rider. On the road, I ride so far within the capibilities of the bike that I don't need the ducks nuts gear. Hence my interest in alternatives in the first place

[Robert Taylor]

So finally you admit that you hijacking Glen's race report to tout for business!

Sale Training 101

You may not realise but you passion comes across as as a form of 'negative sales' (i.e. theirs is shit, you should buy mine)
In sales, you should NEVER name the oppositions product. Talk about the positives of your product - which you have done to the point of broken record - and let the customer decide. The customer has free will
If the customer asks about oppostion product then it is OK to comment on your perception of its weaknesses/drawbacks and reinforce the strenghts of your product services.

Robert, surely you don't NEED to be wasting your time in this post. You are polarising opinion.
Why not do something positive and devote your time to writing some technical articles?
As you rightly say, there are sooooooo many variables that, for a dabbler, all the knowledge without the experience leads to a big ball of tangled string.
By sharing your knowledge you will reinforce the idea in peoples minds of the where to go for good advise.

PS Kerry - RT doesn't strike me as a big listener - maybe gasump him here!

I accept that this post is in the Racing thread but people like myself who don't race have different motivations. I like to tamper. I want to learn for myself. It would be more cost effective for me to pay someone to sort things out for me (other than over capitalising my bike) but my satisfation would be reduced.

On the track, a magic set of XYZ - or O suspension would improve my lap time but it wouldn't suddenly make me a better rider. On the road, I ride so far within the capibilities of the bike that I don't need the ducks nuts gear. Hence my interest in alternatives in the first place

NOT AT ALL, I was stating effectively that it was a by product.

Notably Kiwibiker is polarised anyway and its also notable that the negative comments always circulate between a relatively small bunch of people.

And yeah why dont I write MORE technical articles? Kiwibiker is but one form of media and is not the be all and end all of motorcycling, its not the centre of the motorcycling universe. Check out back issues of BRM magazine and before that Kiwirider magazines. Evidence initiatives where we have had a leading overseas motorcycle road race suspension engineers here to run training schools for those interested enough to attend. PROACTIVE INVOLVEMENT 101

Arguably I have shared a LOT of knowledge over the years, much moreso than anyone else in the game.

Note also that Ive mentioned three names aside from Ohlins and also said that they are all very good products. Every product has its level that it finds itself at in the market and its level of performance, backup and otherwise.

Excellent suspension that is optimised for you gives you a better ride and more confidence as a rider, irrespective of whether you race or cruise on the road. Most of our customers are road cruisers, as a listener I listen to their needs and set the suspension up accordingly within their budgets, plain and simple.

Im not a big listener to BS, thats reasonable

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=roadracingoldfart;1129771745]True good sir ....... the sand pit is full of surprises for big bikes.

Hey , dont try n Associate me with that Sherriff of Fielding fella, he's the one that has a stronghold on sandpits...........

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=roadracingoldfart;1129771745]True good sir ....... the sand pit is full of surprises for big bikes.

Hey , dont try n Associate me with that Sherriff of Fielding fella, he's the one that has a stronghold on sandpits...........



Carries a little spade around with himself also

[Biggles08]

[QUOTE=codgyoleracer;1129772426]



Carries a little spade around with himself also
But at least he has fun out there...just look at the picture in BRM for any proof...he loves playing in the sandpit!

[Kickaha]

But can you fly an F-4, Robert??

No you can't!... and Dukie has personally told me, in all seriousness, that HE has, on covert missions in Afghanistan for the USAF...

Suck on dat!! :p

You could take him in the Fletcher :lol:

[SWERVE]

Or the pre 19 Sopwith Camel ....... with the BPF/Electronic landing gear........ Robert " The Red Baron" Taylor......................... you guys!

[Pussy]

Robert may not be an accomplished pilot.... but he does have aviation experience....he revalved these for me! :niceone:

[coreys]

I find it interesting that there is alot of stuff spoken about KD by RT and his cronies. I find it even more interesting that KD never responds to the abuse and inuendo.
I have no doubt that RT is an exceptional suspension engineer. I have even heard KD state this very thing first hand.
I think that there is one party acting with dignity and integrity in all of this and one party who has none.
i will leave it up to the reader to decide which shoe fits which foot.

[Robert Taylor]

Suffice to say that there is a measure of dignity to voicing concerns ( and they are real concerns) and there being precious little dignity in other activities that have been going on behind the scenes. Those who actually know me will understand my concerns.

[SS90]

I am looking at this argument through experienced eyes, and as I see it, the only thing Robert is taking exception to is the claims that YSS are "just as good" as Öhlins.

I see it as fair for him to question that, as, we all know that Öhlins are a top shelf item, and as such, use only the best materials etc.

There seem to be a few punters that are happy with their YSS suspension, more power to them, but there are times that a distributor has to stand up for himself (and his staff) and affirm the quality of his product.

Humans are a fickle beast, and while several of the contributors to this thread see themselves as "too smart to be caught up in advertising", by our nature (most) of us are lead by "word of mouth", and, all it takes is for several people to say " oh yea YXZ are just as good as ÖÜÄ's", and that can have a detrimental effect on ÖÜÄ's business, simply through "chinese whispers". (pun intended)

Worst case scenario, people buy XYZ brand, have problems (be it the part or back up, or whatever), then, because "Jimmy down at the Ferrit's nipple told me that they where just as good as ÖÜÄ, so therefore both XYZ AND ÖÜÄ are rubbish, and I need to buy something else"

That may sound silly, but that is what brand marketing has done to the industry.

And, for the record, more power to W Whites (I think they are the importer) ,and their service agents, I hope they succeed with gaining a market share in NZ, I really do, because if they are as good as (a few) people claim, then it will push everyone at CKT really hard to offer an even better service, and, if everyone plays fair, the customer will be the winner.

I know of a company over here that had YSS make suspension units to order (that is why YSS have Tüv certification by the way), and they, sadly, were shit, a few even didn't even have enough oil in the body, making for interesting damping rates.

I may be wrong here, but I seem to remember some "asian" emulators appearing on the market (that where complete cack), and, simply a copy of an established brand.....
Perhaps they have a different assembly plant/parts supplier for the NZ market, that may well be true, because from what I see in NZ, they are not that much cheaper than "The swedish brand" Because, in Europe, they (YSS) are quite cheap.

[PeeJay]

claims that YSS are "just as good" as Öhlins.

Any references to this?

This is what I think this is all about
Robert enjoys a well deserved position in NZ motorcycling as the suspension guru.
Unfortunately he see's himself as the only port of call for all things suspension.
He sees Glen's use of YSS as a direct challenge to his authority on all things suspension.
The rot has set in so to speak and it has to be nipped in the bud before it spreads.
His biggest fear is that Glen will do well and someone else will try YSS.
Hence the continuous attacks on YSS, their service agent, their quality, the likelihood of serious injury if you use them etc etc etc.

Its a personal affront that someone is not listening to him, or rather listens and then does something other than what he recommends.

I have no doubt that when Glen decided to do something with the suspension he looked at all the available options, including Ohlins, and then made HIS decision.
I dont think Robert has a problem with people looking at options, what he does have a problem with is someone picking something else over Ohlins.
Next thing you know everyone will be doing it.
Kind of like the Emperors new clothes.

[SS90]

Any references to this?



So you assert that YSS is NOT as good as Öhlins?

I have not seen any personal attacks written by Robert against any person associated with YSS, rather I hear others make comments regarding certain peoples credibility...... (what's this F16 bullshit, it makes this guy sound like a fruit loop)

I will agree though that when a "new roster" starts crowing, the old rooster gives his all, but, hey what's the harm in that?

Ironically, I am always in favour of new products on the market, as well as a champion of the underdog.

Part of me gets the feeling that alot of this current wave of sillyness is propagated by the public, rather than the traders themselves.

One thing can be sure, when the dust settles, there will be another suspension option on the market, and the customers will chose which is the best.

I just hope that, to keep prices low, SERVICE does not suffer.

[coreys]

Suffice to say that there is a measure of dignity to voicing concerns ( and they are real concerns) and there being precious little dignity in other activities that have been going on behind the scenes. Those who actually know me will understand my concerns.

I think readers on this bog understand your MOTIVATIONS very well

[Robert Taylor]

I think readers on this bog understand your MOTIVATIONS very well

Indeed, to carry on what I have been doing for years, to provide a top level of service and to help people set up their bikes, all at reasonable cost.

[Robert Taylor]

Given the nature of this thread its a relevant subject to list what riders should look for when selecting suspension ( any brand of suspension ) and the questions they should be asking. The following is all pretty ad lib, probably doesnt list all possible questions and is in no particular order:

1) If you are not a racer and you just want a very inexpensive replacement shock for your road bike what are the limitations of the cheaper shocks? Ok, they will have a range of about 5 to 6 generic damping curves so there is no individualistion to each specific model aside from the fitting criteria. In the case of budget twin shocks there is a tendency to build them the same way as single acting budget passenger car shocks. I.e little or no low speed compression damping, instead an enormous amount of preload on the springs ( often can be as much as 40mm ) to provide a low cost means of ride height control. As there is so much preload the rebound damping has to be pretty aggressive and happily that can be arranged with an orifice damping curve, little more sophisticated than a checkplate and small ports.
Performance will be okay but not stunning, especially on our high ratio of bumpy roads.
No pretence, built to a price and that is what you get

Higher priced shocks:

2) What level of service will I get? If it is shipped to me with a spring rate that turns out to be incorrect will the seller replace it at no further cost? Even though it may have taken several weeks for me to ascertain that the spring rate is not quite right?

3) What if the internal valving calibration ( controlling damping ) proves to be not so good on our bumpy roads or it doesnt give the control and grip I require on track? What will the seller do to sort it out and will there be a cost involved?

4) How well trained are the technicians? Have they attended training schools at the manufacturer ( overseas ) so they have knowledge specific to the product? How ongoing is this?

5) What is the spare parts backup like? If my springing is incorrect do they hold a suitable number of the faster moving options so that Im not unduly inconvenienced?

6) If Im at a racetrack and the suspension needs work, is the technician receptive to my needs? Will he have the capacity and time to help or is he too busy helping the top riders? Does he have extra fully factory trained and capable technicians on hand to help?

7) What is the pedigree of the suspension Im looking at? What international success have they had at the higher and highest levels of motorcycle racing? Are they at the forefront of technology forever pushing the boundaries or is end price an over-riding factor?

8) What makes the suspension stand out?

Price?

Function?

Ease of setting change?

Are the technicians on hand very obliging to make those setting changes?

Setting parts and springs on hand trackside?

9) How long is the suspension warrantied for against manufacturing defect? If there is a defect is there going to be a battle or will it be handled with minimal fuss?

I think all of the above ( and I will have miseed afew points ) are very fair questions to ask any suspension supplier.

[Robert Taylor]

Any references to this?

This is what I think this is all about
Robert enjoys a well deserved position in NZ motorcycling as the suspension guru.
Unfortunately he see's himself as the only port of call for all things suspension.
He sees Glen's use of YSS as a direct challenge to his authority on all things suspension.
The rot has set in so to speak and it has to be nipped in the bud before it spreads.
His biggest fear is that Glen will do well and someone else will try YSS.
Hence the continuous attacks on YSS, their service agent, their quality, the likelihood of serious injury if you use them etc etc etc.

Its a personal affront that someone is not listening to him, or rather listens and then does something other than what he recommends.

I have no doubt that when Glen decided to do something with the suspension he looked at all the available options, including Ohlins, and then made HIS decision.
I dont think Robert has a problem with people looking at options, what he does have a problem with is someone picking something else over Ohlins.
Next thing you know everyone will be doing it.
Kind of like the Emperors new clothes.

PORTS OF CALL FOR ALL THINGS SUSPENSION:

Ray Clee WP importer, top guy, excellent engineer. Plays the game straight, sells a very high quality brand and I talk too him freely and openly quite often. I trust him

Mark Patterson, the NZ specialist for WP MX suspension, especially. If Im working on a WP shock and need to clarify something I ring Mark. If Im too busy and cant do the job I recommend Mark, everytime.

Norm Cobb, Suspension Tech. If someone in Auckland has suspension issues and cannot bring it to us I can implicitly trust Norm to sort it out.

Jason at Levin Motorcycles. Again a total level of trust. Especially good with racing ATVs that I have very little experience with. Ill often send customers there, if Ohlins dont have a listing specific to the ATV they will sell the guy Fox or Elka. Either way I know they are in very good hands.

Blair Selfe at Oamaru Motorcycles, just like Jason a guy I can trust implicitly. Doesnt sell a huge number of shocks nor do I put any pressure on him to do so.

Peter Fenton in ChCh, trust built up through racing and looking after primarily road customers in that area.

Shaun Harris, trusted subcontractor who can work out whats wrong with a bike and develop it. Had rather more than a lot to do with developing the worlds first shock for the first incarnation of GSXR1000 and more latterly worlds first for TTX36.

Chris Osbourne, a really clever race engineer and another guy I can implicitly trust.

Don Oconnor at Eurobike, if an Ohlins shock is well out of the price range and the customer just wants a cheap replacement Ill reccommend that they purchase a Hagon from their local dealer, distributed by Eurobike.

Customers that often ask me to build Speedway shocks...''sorry I dont understand the finest points of speedway setup and could only do so if I was fully involved, which I cannot be''


It never pays to assume, you think you know me but you dont know me at all.

[schrodingers cat]

Two excellent, constructive posts Robert.
More deserving of a new thread I would have thought - might get lost in here

I withdraw, and stand corrected, re the 'listener' comment

[GSVR]

AS I said in a previous post just ignore robert hes a nob

As all the insiders know the Olhins shocks may cost alot of gold but are actually not made of gold but are actually just gold anodised aluminium.

Heres hoping for a good year for Honda next Nats!
You riding at the Woodville motocross ?

[PeeJay]

So you assert that YSS is NOT as good as Öhlins?

I have not seen any personal attacks written by Robert against any person associated with YSS, rather I hear others make comments regarding certain peoples credibility...... (what's this F16 bullshit, it makes this guy sound like a fruit loop)

I will agree though that when a "new roster" starts crowing, the old rooster gives his all, but, hey what's the harm in that?

Ironically, I am always in favour of new products on the market, as well as a champion of the underdog.

Part of me gets the feeling that alot of this current wave of sillyness is propagated by the public, rather than the traders themselves.

One thing can be sure, when the dust settles, there will be another suspension option on the market, and the customers will chose which is the best.

I just hope that, to keep prices low, SERVICE does not suffer.

I wouldnt assert it in the same way as Robert would but generally speaking I would agree that YSS isnt as good as Ohlins.
But to qualify that statement depending on use YSS can be "as good as" Ohlins
eg one of our managers bought an 883 and enjoys sunday rides. Just cruises along 100k doesnt fly around corners etc. He fitted YSS. (He chose YSS over Hagon because he said they look better)
He did look into it including Ohlins but most of the advice he had was dont spend all that money for little extra benefit compared to Hagon Ikon or YSS
Doesnt mean Ohlins wasnt the best, means in this case the extra benefits wouldn't be necessary.
The shock doesnt need fine tuning, all it has to do is be better than the stock units. Which it is.
If getting the best suspension possible was the goal then Ohlins, new wheels, Ohlins forks, a weight loss program etc would be required.
Ohlins by themselves would be like fitting a big carb to an engine. You wont get the full benefit until you do other work, exhaust, head work, cams etc. Until then it may go a bit better but essentially all it does is look good.
So in this and similar cases YSS would be as good as Ohlins. Certainly more bang for your buck, so when looked at in its entirety actually better than Ohlins.

Racing , thats a different story.
At the moment noone would be saying YSS is as good as Ohlins, but at the moment it is in Pre89 Senior.
Just one more thing, while Ohlins may be technically superior, more R&D, bigger foofoo valves,etc etc etc, suspension is only one part of a race bike and in itself doesn't win races. It helps. "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts"
In other words you could have $50,000 worth of suspension but if the rest of the bike /rider is crap you will get blitzed by someone with stock suspension. Or YSS even.
Re personal attacks Roberts posts are full of veiled references to Kerry, his lack of integrity, lack of skill, etc He doesnt actually say Kerry, just as he rarely says YSS, preferring that Asian brand and variations. All presented in a snide and dismissive way.
But thats life
cheers

[gixerracer]

As all the insiders know the Olhins shocks may cost alot of gold but are actually not made of gold but are actually just gold anodised aluminium.

Heres hoping for a good year for Honda next Nats!
You riding at the Woodville motocross ?

WTF The last time I raced at woodville was 1987????????

[SS90]

I wouldnt assert it in the same way as Robert would but generally speaking I would agree that YSS isnt as good as Ohlins.
But to qualify that statement depending on use YSS can be "as good as" Ohlins
eg one of our managers bought an 883 and enjoys sunday rides. Just cruises along 100k doesnt fly around corners etc. He fitted YSS. (He chose YSS over Hagon because he said they look better)
He did look into it including Ohlins but most of the advice he had was dont spend all that money for little extra benefit compared to Hagon Ikon or YSS
Doesnt mean Ohlins wasnt the best, means in this case the extra benefits wouldn't be necessary.
The shock doesnt need fine tuning, all it has to do is be better than the stock units. Which it is.
If getting the best suspension possible was the goal then Ohlins, new wheels, Ohlins forks, a weight loss program etc would be required.
Ohlins by themselves would be like fitting a big carb to an engine. You wont get the full benefit until you do other work, exhaust, head work, cams etc. Until then it may go a bit better but essentially all it does is look good.
So in this and similar cases YSS would be as good as Ohlins. Certainly more bang for your buck, so when looked at in its entirety actually better than Ohlins.

Racing , thats a different story.
At the moment noone would be saying YSS is as good as Ohlins, but at the moment it is in Pre89 Senior.
Just one more thing, while Ohlins may be technically superior, more R&D, bigger foofoo valves,etc etc etc, suspension is only one part of a race bike and in itself doesn't win races. It helps. "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts"
In other words you could have $50,000 worth of suspension but if the rest of the bike /rider is crap you will get blitzed by someone with stock suspension. Or YSS even.
Re personal attacks Roberts posts are full of veiled references to Kerry, his lack of integrity, lack of skill, etc He doesnt actually say Kerry, just as he rarely says YSS, preferring that Asian brand and variations. All presented in a snide and dismissive way.
But thats life
cheers

If someone who pootled along at 100 KP/H on a superbike (literally) needed an uprated suspension unit didn't have the werewithitall to simply have his (high quality) suspension unit rebuilt, then he deserves what he pays......above that.....Valid points, you win, I best jump into my F16 and fly a few missions over Iraq before the next national points meeting!

Because, you heard it here first..... the same guy who built the suspension for the 600 supersport championship winning bike is the same guy who flew covert missions in a F16 over Iraq......... (and passes GSX-R1000's on a corner, on the back wheel).........

[schrodingers cat]

Because, you heard it here first..... the same guy who built the suspension for the 600 supersport championship winning bike is the same guy who flew covert missions in a F16 over Iraq......... (and passes GSX-R1000's on a corner, on the back wheel).........

You've loaded those pictures in the wrong order. I like the imagery if they are reversed :yes:

[codgyoleracer]

Ahh well a week to go and we can take the YSS suspended FZR1000 out for another test run. Found some time this week to fit a different spring to the rear shock , and we are going to try a change to the front valving as well.
So hopefully we can move forward from where we are at currently and keep refining the set up with luck.
The extended track at Manfiled might throw us a few more curve balls as well, as the corners are quite different in design (flat) to the main general layout + theres an extra bump or two to liven things up a bit ! :-)
Glen

[Robert Taylor]

I wouldnt assert it in the same way as Robert would but generally speaking I would agree that YSS isnt as good as Ohlins.
But to qualify that statement depending on use YSS can be "as good as" Ohlins
eg one of our managers bought an 883 and enjoys sunday rides. Just cruises along 100k doesnt fly around corners etc. He fitted YSS. (He chose YSS over Hagon because he said they look better)
He did look into it including Ohlins but most of the advice he had was dont spend all that money for little extra benefit compared to Hagon Ikon or YSS
Doesnt mean Ohlins wasnt the best, means in this case the extra benefits wouldn't be necessary.
The shock doesnt need fine tuning, all it has to do is be better than the stock units. Which it is.
If getting the best suspension possible was the goal then Ohlins, new wheels, Ohlins forks, a weight loss program etc would be required.
Ohlins by themselves would be like fitting a big carb to an engine. You wont get the full benefit until you do other work, exhaust, head work, cams etc. Until then it may go a bit better but essentially all it does is look good.
So in this and similar cases YSS would be as good as Ohlins. Certainly more bang for your buck, so when looked at in its entirety actually better than Ohlins.

Racing , thats a different story.
At the moment noone would be saying YSS is as good as Ohlins, but at the moment it is in Pre89 Senior.
Just one more thing, while Ohlins may be technically superior, more R&D, bigger foofoo valves,etc etc etc, suspension is only one part of a race bike and in itself doesn't win races. It helps. "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts"
In other words you could have $50,000 worth of suspension but if the rest of the bike /rider is crap you will get blitzed by someone with stock suspension. Or YSS even.
Re personal attacks Roberts posts are full of veiled references to Kerry, his lack of integrity, lack of skill, etc He doesnt actually say Kerry, just as he rarely says YSS, preferring that Asian brand and variations. All presented in a snide and dismissive way.
But thats life
cheers

When you actually know a lot more about suspension including friction reduction to the nth degree, cleverly arranged coefficients of expansion, well tested internal valving calibration specific to each and every model and comparing things apples for apples...then please feel qualified to present a better argument.
Most of our customers are road going who for the most part ride at moderate speeds, they want great control but also with superb ride quality. The better the quality of manufacture, material choices and design, the exhaustive testing, they all contribute to that. You will get a better result with a higher end shock such as WP, Penske and that Swedish brand. My customers understand that and so will many new ones.
Checking out our new pricing they are indeed worth the few extra dollars, especially also that the residual value is very very good.
In a previous post I listed business associates, people that I trust. I f there is one thing I cant stand in dealing with anyone its BS and lies. Like the guy on Trade Me recently trying to sell a Sachs shock and blatantly passing that off as an Ohlins. We had that stopped pretty quickly.
The best youve ridden is the best you know or to put it another ( brutal ) way ignorance is bliss.

[Robert Taylor]

As all the insiders know the Olhins shocks may cost alot of gold but are actually not made of gold but are actually just gold anodised aluminium.

Heres hoping for a good year for Honda next Nats!
You riding at the Woodville motocross ?

The ''gold'' is all about the refinement, performance, quality and backup. In NZ Id have to unashamedly say that the added value is very high indeed.

[schrodingers cat]

Sigh.

You just couldn't help yourself could you? :tugger:

Now I'm all confused. I guess I'll just revert to my default opinion.






Looking forward to the Rd 2 race report Glen

[GSVR]

Your starting to sound and work like a suspension tech Glen. Wonder what style of tech you will be... I reacon you'd be a RT type LOL

Good to see your saving the SV for next season. I reacon it needs more work done on it to make it competive against the 2fiddies.

[codgyoleracer]

Your starting to sound and work like a suspension tech Glen. Wonder what style of tech you will be... I reacon you'd be a RT type LOL

Good to see your saving the SV for next season. I reacon it needs more work done on it to make it competive against the 2fiddies.

If i knew half as much about suspension as either RT or KD - then that would be 3 x mores than i know now........ :-0

The SVR is having a nice holiday and she is quietly considering her options on getting covered in 2stroke oil.

[Ivan]

just a real dumb thing with those new f3 rules would that disclude yours and jason's bikes? because ofthe frames? I hope not but I was reading new rules about the bike still has to have its vin number etc stampped and I thought I hope this doesnt mean this as these rules are only suggestion I thought I would bring it up so you guys could put something forward against that so your not discluded.

[sugilite]

With this thread running, I'm suprised you have time to ride! Maybe you should fit a netbook to the bikes cockpit so you can receive and impliment suspension tips from kb on the fly! :lol:
Seriously though, have fun and try not to make the opposition look too bad. (saves on tyres too hehe)


Ahh well a week to go and we can take the YSS suspended FZR1000 out for another test run. Found some time this week to fit a different spring to the rear shock , and we are going to try a change to the front valving as well.
So hopefully we can move forward from where we are at currently and keep refining the set up with luck.
The extended track at Manfiled might throw us a few more curve balls as well, as the corners are quite different in design (flat) to the main general layout + theres an extra bump or two to liven things up a bit ! :-)
Glen

[roadracingoldfart]

With this thread running, I'm suprised you have time to ride! Maybe you should fit a netbook to the bikes cockpit so you can receive and impliment suspension tips from kb on the fly! :lol:
Seriously though, have fun and try not to make the opposition look too bad. (saves on tyres too hehe)

Anthony ,....... shut up with advice and get yourself back on the track . Where the hell have you been hiding ???

Paul.

[codgyoleracer]

just a real dumb thing with those new f3 rules would that disclude yours and jason's bikes? because ofthe frames? I hope not but I was reading new rules about the bike still has to have its vin number etc stampped and I thought I hope this doesnt mean this as these rules are only suggestion I thought I would bring it up so you guys could put something forward against that so your not discluded.

Looks like that is under sect 5 and effective to the proposed 350cc prod 2 stroke rules Ivan.

[codgyoleracer]

With this thread running, I'm suprised you have time to ride! Maybe you should fit a netbook to the bikes cockpit so you can receive and impliment suspension tips from kb on the fly! :lol:
Seriously though, have fun and try not to make the opposition look too bad. (saves on tyres too hehe)

This thread certainly took off, far to many ppl intertested in old crappy bikes , ridden by old farts I say.........

[Peter Smith]

This thread certainly took off, far to many ppl intertested in old crappy bikes , ridden by old farts I say.........
Old crappy bikes, you must be refering to Yammies, and you and Mossy aren't that old.:shutup::shutup:

[Shaun]

This thread certainly took off, far to many ppl intertested in old crappy bikes , ridden by old farts I say.........



I enjoyed it, as i was not talking shit in it for once, man I laughed


PS Robert

Thanks for the reference on here

[PeeJay]

When you actually know a lot more about suspension including friction reduction to the nth degree, cleverly arranged coefficients of expansion, well tested internal valving calibration specific to each and every model and comparing things apples for apples...then please feel qualified to present a better argument.
Most of our customers are road going who for the most part ride at moderate speeds, they want great control but also with superb ride quality. The better the quality of manufacture, material choices and design, the exhaustive testing, they all contribute to that. You will get a better result with a higher end shock such as WP, Penske and that Swedish brand. My customers understand that and so will many new ones.
Checking out our new pricing they are indeed worth the few extra dollars, especially also that the residual value is very very good.
In a previous post I listed business associates, people that I trust. I f there is one thing I cant stand in dealing with anyone its BS and lies. Like the guy on Trade Me recently trying to sell a Sachs shock and blatantly passing that off as an Ohlins. We had that stopped pretty quickly.
The best youve ridden is the best you know or to put it another ( brutal ) way ignorance is bliss.

Now you are just trying to baffle me with BS
There is only one question that needs to be answered regarding suspension changes
Is it better than before?
Regarding our managers 883, he had a particular problem when riding, after 1/2 an hour he had a sore arse. He fitted YSS and now he doesnt get a sore arse.
Simple problem, simple cost effective solution.
No one is saying ohlins wouldnt have worked as well or better, but why spend the extra $$$ when there is no need?
He just wants to ride his bike without getting a sore arse. He doesnt care how cleverly you can arrange coefficients of expansion
Nothing wrong with "ignorance is bliss"
After all you dont need a degree in aeronautics or even need to understand the principles of flight to get on a 747 to LA
You dont stop your brain surgery so you can spend a couple of years learning about brain surgery.
You dont need to know big words like coefficient of friction to know that when you turn the steering wheel the car will turn a corner
You dont need to be a computer engineer to understand that when you push the keys the letters appear on the screen.
And you dont need to know the internal workings of a shock absorber in order to know if its working for you or not.

Trying to prove you know more big words than me doesnt negate my argument.
Do you believe a motorcycle is an example of synergy? or are the shock absorbers completely independent ?

[Robert Taylor]

Now you are just trying to baffle me with BS
There is only one question that needs to be answered regarding suspension changes
Is it better than before?
Regarding our managers 883, he had a particular problem when riding, after 1/2 an hour he had a sore arse. He fitted YSS and now he doesnt get a sore arse.
Simple problem, simple cost effective solution.
No one is saying ohlins wouldnt have worked as well or better, but why spend the extra $$$ when there is no need?
He just wants to ride his bike without getting a sore arse. He doesnt care how cleverly you can arrange coefficients of expansion
Nothing wrong with "ignorance is bliss"
After all you dont need a degree in aeronautics or even need to understand the principles of flight to get on a 747 to LA
You dont stop your brain surgery so you can spend a couple of years learning about brain surgery.
You dont need to know big words like coefficient of friction to know that when you turn the steering wheel the car will turn a corner
You dont need to be a computer engineer to understand that when you push the keys the letters appear on the screen.
And you dont need to know the internal workings of a shock absorber in order to know if its working for you or not.

Trying to prove you know more big words than me doesnt negate my argument.
Do you believe a motorcycle is an example of synergy? or are the shock absorbers completely independent ?


Ok put it this way, go for a ride with what has been fitted then go for a ride with the product we distribute, I know only too damn well which ones youll prefer. Its a very real point of difference that in the real world is very apparent. Im not saying that what has been fitted is ''no good'' Im saying that what we offer is measurably better. Simple.
I apologise profusely for having the temerity to use large words and to try and explain things.

[sinfull]

My FXR tramlines quite badly !

[SS90]

As a matter of interest, here in Europe, the same YSS shock used on Glenns bike retails for 390€ (NZ$705)

http://www.so-products.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Preislisten/Preislisten_2009/YSS_Preisliste_2009__09-09-09_.pdf

(not including the revalving/springing that comes with the price if your purchase from Dukic suspension for NZ$1190), and, an Öhlins TTX-36 can set you back over €1000 (NZ$1950) retail (again, with no set up)

I think CKT have them for NZ$1499 (with set up)

Perhaps it could be that NZ has it better than the rest of the world when it comes to suspension service for bikes.

Having worked in the motorcycle industry worldwide for 15 years, I have been told many times that even though NZ is a tiny market globally, apparently we winge louder than most.

Go figure.

[White trash]

Hey , dont try n Associate me with that Sherriff of Fielding fella, he's the one that has a stronghold on sandpits...........

Nah, he's just trying to emulate his racing hero, Jamie McNair. Got a ways to go yet I might add, friggen amateur......

[White trash]

This thread is fricken SWEET!!!

[codgyoleracer]

This thread is fricken SWEET!!!

I agree , it has got out of control, - but then you would understand that "out of control" bit......... :-)

[Kickaha]

Nah, he's just trying to emulate his racing hero, Jamie McNair. Got a ways to go yet I might add, friggen amateur......

Yeah he'd have to crash a lot more for a start


I agree , it has got out of control, - but then you would understand that "out of control" bit......... :-)

I think the control bit could be fixed by fitting Ohlins

[mossy1200]

Old crappy bikes, you must be refering to Yammies, and you and Mossy aren't that old.:shutup::shutup:

Its not age thats my limiting factor since im early 20s Peter(premature old age looks due to being sparky)its generally a lack of fitness and eye hand coordination.

Im going to fit a yss rear suspender on mine and we will see what difference it makes on the track seeing as i have riden mine stock for 2 years the times will indicate how well it works.I decided to do this 3 months ago and and Kerry advised me to allow Codgy to run it and get good settings on the FZR so that mine could replicate his set up.Seeming a good idea to me.
I have RT front end already so im a bob each way hows that.

[codgyoleracer]

Its not age thats my limiting factor since im early 20s Peter(premature old age looks due to being sparky)its generally a lack of fitness and eye hand coordination.

Im going to fit a yss rear suspender on mine and we will see what difference it makes on the track seeing as i have riden mine stock for 2 years the times will indicate how well it works.I decided to do this 3 months ago and and Kerry advised me to allow Codgy to run it and get good settings on the FZR so that mine could replicate his set up.Seeming a good idea to me.
I have RT front end already so im a bob each way hows that.

Great to hear of the upgrade Mossy !, better pull my finga out. P.S , bring a rain coat and a nice wooly jumper n mittens.......

[ktm]

Nah, it's going to be sunny, 20 degrees......(somewhere in the world).....long as it's not bloody raining!

[schrodingers cat]

I have RT front end already so im a bob each way hows that.

So if you highside RT is better and if you lowside YSS is the way forward...

[Robert Taylor]

Its not age thats my limiting factor since im early 20s Peter(premature old age looks due to being sparky)its generally a lack of fitness and eye hand coordination.

Im going to fit a yss rear suspender on mine and we will see what difference it makes on the track seeing as i have riden mine stock for 2 years the times will indicate how well it works.I decided to do this 3 months ago and and Kerry advised me to allow Codgy to run it and get good settings on the FZR so that mine could replicate his set up.Seeming a good idea to me.
I have RT front end already so im a bob each way hows that.

It will be undoubtedly good as it will be a lot better than the oem ''gap filler'' and getting some rear ride height and all the positives that brings will be a big bonus. In the back of your mind though will be the lingering thought ''I wonder how much better again it would have been if I had fitted one of those European shocks with lots of racing pedigree?" Especially as the variation I offered you had an internal top out spring, allowing you to brake a little later again with more stability. But hey youve made your bed and that is made for lying upon
Perhaps you could have saved both yourself and myself a little time by having divulged your intention when I talked to you a month back? I like it when people are straight up, as I have been.
Please dont misconstrue this in any way as sour grapes, I just know where the very real advantages lay with the product we distribute.

[gixerracer]

Man you talk some crap
It will be undoubtedly good as it will be a lot better than the oem ''gap filler'' and getting some rear ride height and all the positives that brings will be a big bonus. In the back of your mind though will be the lingering thought ''I wonder how much better again it would have been if I had fitted one of those European shocks with lots of racing pedigree?" Especially as the variation I offered you had an internal top out spring, allowing you to brake a little later again with more stability. But hey youve made your bed and that is made for lying upon
Perhaps you could have saved both yourself and myself a little time by having divulged your intention when I talked to you a month back? I like it when people are straight up, as I have been.
Please dont misconstrue this in any way as sour grapes, I just know where the very real advantages lay with the product we distribute.

[mossy1200]

Great to hear of the upgrade Mossy !, better pull my finga out. P.S , bring a rain coat and a nice wooly jumper n mittens.......

Kerry told you hes gunna make you ride it till its set up?That was the deal clincher for me.

[codgyoleracer]

Kerry told you hes gunna make you ride it till its set up?That was the deal clincher for me.

Thank you for the kind offer, but one 21 year old motorcycle is quite enough for me thanks.... :-)

[Robert Taylor]

Man you talk some crap

Well I never fail to keep you entertained Craig! And we both know a lot about top out springs.

Heres some more good ''crap'':
Glen, remove the rear top out spring from the TTX in your SV and go test it, will be interested in your findings. ( If you havent done so already )
This is an interesting subject, companies such as WP and Ohlins wholeheartedly embrace them, US shock manufacturers and most others dont seem to and cynically I think for many its in the hard pile. On balance we have always had better results using them. Several tests that I performed at Phillip Island in removing them out of Katsu Fujiwaras Kawasaki demonstrated that performance and laptimes were worse when removed.
This week we are installing a top out spring in a model that doesnt have one, in a front running bike in one of the classes.
Its more expensive to fit top out springs and all the neccessary appendages inside a shock but an increase in price for better performance shouldnt deter a suspension manufacturer.

[sugilite]

One day Rogor Fitz, One day!
I'll never retire, it's only cash flow that keeps me away. One kid has left home, 3 to go lol


Anthony ,....... shut up with advice and get yourself back on the track . Where the hell have you been hiding ???

Paul.

[PeeJay]

Ok put it this way, go for a ride with what has been fitted then go for a ride with the product we distribute, I know only too damn well which ones youll prefer. Its a very real point of difference that in the real world is very apparent. Im not saying that what has been fitted is ''no good'' Im saying that what we offer is measurably better. Simple.
I apologise profusely for having the temerity to use large words and to try and explain things.

I agree 100%, fit Ohlins to just about anything and it will be "better"
But if there is no real problem (real or imagined) to solve then fitting Ohlins to make it better is just a case of making it better for the sake of making it better.
eg
A Lexus is "better" than a Toyota, should all Toyota owners rush out and buy a Lexus ?
If there is nothing actually "wrong" with your Toyota why would you? Unless you wanted a Lexus for the sake of having a Lexus
Same here, everyone knows fitting Ohlins will make their bike "better" but if what they have is working perfectly fine for their needs and they dont actually have a problem, then they may as well leave well enough alone. Which considering the number of bikes on the road with stock suspension, the vast majority of people do.
Of course if you want Ohlins for the sake of having Ohlins, and have money burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of bling

[SS90]

I agree 100%, fit Ohlins to just about anything and it will be "better"
But if there is no real problem (real or imagined) to solve then fitting Ohlins to make it better is just a case of making it better for the sake of making it better.
eg
A Lexus is "better" than a Toyota, should all Toyota owners rush out and buy a Lexus ?
If there is nothing actually "wrong" with your Toyota why would you? Unless you wanted a Lexus for the sake of having a Lexus
Same here, everyone knows fitting Ohlins will make their bike "better" but if what they have is working perfectly fine for their needs and they dont actually have a problem, then they may as well leave well enough alone. Which considering the number of bikes on the road with stock suspension, the vast majority of people do.
Of course if you want Ohlins for the sake of having Ohlins, and have money burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of bling

Years ago, brand names where created on quality (not the same today) names like Adidas,Tissot,Bentley, and so on, came about in an era that quality was all, and it was more important how long it lasted, rather than if it was stocked at the Warehouse in Epsom.

Same is true for established motorcycles, the brands that where not up to scratch fall by the wayside (Meridan Triumph , Harley (almost destroyed by the better quality and cheaper Jap bikes), J.A.P, Norton, and so on, )

The thing you will note about the bike manufacturers that have stood the test of time, is that their (better quality) bikes where never cheap, and, still today, are not, and, their stand out points are their quality.

Why is it so hard to accept that "quality come with price"

It is such a simple concept to grasp, but in this "free market economy", some of us have trained ourselves to believe that if it is not cheap, then we are being robbed.

It is simply not correct.

[PeeJay]

Years ago, brand names where created on quality (not the same today) names like Adidas,Tissot,Bentley, and so on, came about in an era that quality was all, and it was more important how long it lasted, rather than if it was stocked at the Warehouse in Epsom.

Same is true for established motorcycles, the brands that where not up to scratch fall by the wayside (Meridan Triumph , Harley (almost destroyed by the better quality and cheaper Jap bikes), J.A.P, Norton, and so on, )

The thing you will note about the bike manufacturers that have stood the test of time, is that their (better quality) bikes where never cheap, and, still today, are not, and, their stand out points are their quality.

Why is it so hard to accept that "quality come with price"

It is such a simple concept to grasp, but in this "free market economy", some of us have trained ourselves to believe that if it is not cheap, then we are being robbed.

It is simply not correct.

Agree that quality comes at a price. The point here is how much quality do you need?
eg a $200 tv made in china (cheap) is as good as the best you could buy 10 years ago. The whole "quality" curve has moved up with new efficient manufacturing techniques and distribution etc
I dont entirely agree with your thought as to why the old bike manufacturers died off. They mostly died because their business model was outdated and they couldnt/wouldnt change fast enough to suit the post WW2 world. Their manufacturing and way of doing business hadnt changed much since the second world war and earlier. This included quality machines of the era eg Vincent.
Japan and and Germany essentially had to start all over from scratch so they had the opportunity to do it differently, more efficiently etc. They also had an incentive to get cracking, they were literally starving.
The allies however had won, so they sat around and had a rest, and back to business as usual. And besides if we won the war we must know what we are doing yes?
Manufacturers need a lot more than quality in order to survive today.
When you look at modern mainstream motorcycles from a quality point of view they are all much of a much.
Manufacturers may market themselves as having more "quality" but in reality the majority of this quality is perceived rather than actual.
I have had a couple of occasions worked on the latest crop of MV.
In my opinion the "quality" they promote is an illusion, underneath it all they are no different to your everyday garden variety 4 cylinder motorcycle. There are numerous aspects to them that are definitely low quality, you dont see these until you start pulling them apart.
In essence the bikes are no different to anything else except they are marketed differently.

The way I look at it YSS etc are probably as good as Ohlins were say 5 yrs? ago
And if Ohlins were fantastic 5 years ago then YSS cant be that bad today.
(And I know hp, frame, tyres, have all moved on over the last 5 years as well)
But on a pre 89 it could be just the ticket!!
cheers

[codgyoleracer]

Well I never fail to keep you entertained Craig! And we both know a lot about top out springs.

Heres some more good ''crap'':
Glen, remove the rear top out spring from the TTX in your SV and go test it, will be interested in your findings. ( If you havent done so already )
This is an interesting subject, companies such as WP and Ohlins wholeheartedly embrace them, US shock manufacturers and most others dont seem to and cynically I think for many its in the hard pile. On balance we have always had better results using them. Several tests that I performed at Phillip Island in removing them out of Katsu Fujiwaras Kawasaki demonstrated that performance and laptimes were worse when removed.
This week we are installing a top out spring in a model that doesnt have one, in a front running bike in one of the classes.
Its more expensive to fit top out springs and all the neccessary appendages inside a shock but an increase in price for better performance shouldnt deter a suspension manufacturer.

Top out springs ? , I,me more concerned about bottom out springs with my fat arse sitting on the bike Rob......... :-)

[Shaun]

Top out springs ? , I,me more concerned about bottom out springs with my fat arse sitting on the bike Rob......... :-)



Just carry on with Ya Silly Shock mate

[scracha]

Same is true for established motorcycles, the brands that where not up to scratch fall by the wayside (Meridan Triumph , Harley (almost destroyed by the better quality and cheaper Jap bikes), J.A.P, Norton, and so on, )

The thing you will note about the bike manufacturers that have stood the test of time, is that their (better quality) bikes where never cheap, and, still today, are not, and, their stand out points are their quality.


Oh I dunno. I hear Suzuki are still making bikes.

[Robert Taylor]

Agree that quality comes at a price. The point here is how much quality do you need?
eg a $200 tv made in china (cheap) is as good as the best you could buy 10 years ago. The whole "quality" curve has moved up with new efficient manufacturing techniques and distribution etc
I dont entirely agree with your thought as to why the old bike manufacturers died off. They mostly died because their business model was outdated and they couldnt/wouldnt change fast enough to suit the post WW2 world. Their manufacturing and way of doing business hadnt changed much since the second world war and earlier. This included quality machines of the era eg Vincent.
Japan and and Germany essentially had to start all over from scratch so they had the opportunity to do it differently, more efficiently etc. They also had an incentive to get cracking, they were literally starving.
The allies however had won, so they sat around and had a rest, and back to business as usual. And besides if we won the war we must know what we are doing yes?
Manufacturers need a lot more than quality in order to survive today.
When you look at modern mainstream motorcycles from a quality point of view they are all much of a much.
Manufacturers may market themselves as having more "quality" but in reality the majority of this quality is perceived rather than actual.
I have had a couple of occasions worked on the latest crop of MV.
In my opinion the "quality" they promote is an illusion, underneath it all they are no different to your everyday garden variety 4 cylinder motorcycle. There are numerous aspects to them that are definitely low quality, you dont see these until you start pulling them apart.
In essence the bikes are no different to anything else except they are marketed differently.

The way I look at it YSS etc are probably as good as Ohlins were say 5 yrs? ago
And if Ohlins were fantastic 5 years ago then YSS cant be that bad today.
(And I know hp, frame, tyres, have all moved on over the last 5 years as well)
But on a pre 89 it could be just the ticket!!
cheers

I absolutely do not agree that the subject shocks are as good as Ohlins were 5 years ago but Im not about to write screeds to emphasise why. The comparisons are obvious.
But think of it in these terms, Nissan didnt make too bad a motor car 5 years ago but not as good build quality or as long term robust as a Toyota. 5 years on Nissan still dont make too bad a motor car, but not as good quality or as robust as a Toyota. Expenditure on R&D and introducing new radical designs embraced by the top ends of the racing world and the market as a whole also define a product. I see innovation from Penske, Ohlins and WP but not from the mid price and low price manufacturers.
Twin shocks are also a very good example. Aside from quality level limits bought about by end price / position in the market targets most if not all low and mid price twin shocks have very small diameter body tubes. That means they have very small pistons and shim stacks and also very low oil capacity. Smaller shims are less responsive than ''bigger bore shims'' and need to be quit aggressive in setting to afford a decent level of damping. That, allied with very minimal oil capacity means they can tend to fade rather quickly if ridden briskly on our high proportion of bumpy roads. Smallness also means less load bearing surface areas and faster wear / less long term longevity.
People often also get preoccupied with having external damping adjusters on their low cost twin shocks when in reality its whats on the inside that counts most. Adjusters are used as a marketing tool but all too often the internal calibration is not that stunning and the adjusters are meaningless in trying to correct that deficiency. Many people have struggled with that, we hear about it all the time.
The top end manufacturers all produce twin shocks with much bigger tube and therefore piston size ( Penske, Ohlins and WP ) That pays huge dividends in terms of accuracy / precision of build, low friction, easier to control accurately a larger mass flow, shock strength ( seen a lot of broken small body shocks ) etc etc. To convert my bigword ''BS'' diatribe, better performance, longer life, better ride quality ( often much better ) etc etc.
With respect to Post Classic its now possible to build TTX36 with a hose reservoir and of course internal top out spring. In a bike such as Glens that would result in a lap time as much as 1.5 seconds per lap faster than what it is currently doing ( maybe more ), once fully optimised. Any comparisons have to be fully apples for apples, same rider, same bike, same tyres in same condition, same track and conditions. Just change the suspenders.
Id be happy to build one for Glenn to test but I guess he has rather boxed himself into an arrangement.

[SS90]

Oh I dunno. I hear Suzuki are still making bikes.

Oh, wow, you got me there! hahaha!

I can remember being a first year apprentice and the RF900 was something like 20K, and by the the time the TL1000 came out the RF was something like $7999, and the amazing thing was, at this time, they went from the 20K RF900's being packed in steel fames, which where bolted together, to the last of them coming in almost balsa wood like crates with opaque plastic wrapping, and the same bolts that used to hold the old steel crates together, now being assigned to holding the footpeg brackets on the bike!

Peejay make some good points though....... experience tells me that quality will always win over in the end.

[PeeJay]

Reading your last post regarding the manufacturing of twin shocks.
Why dont the the lower end manufacturers make big bore shocks like Ohlins Wp penske?
Its not a manufacturing/production problem
Its not a problem with basic design
The Asian manufacturers arent stupid
So what is stopping them ?
Is it a licensing/patent issue?
I imagine YSS would be sensitive to patent issues as they seem to be wanting to be a mainstream and worldwide business.
But others may not be so worried about patent violations

[codgyoleracer]

[PART QUOTE=Robert Taylor;
With respect to Post Classic its now possible to build TTX36 with a hose reservoir and of course internal top out spring. In a bike such as Glens that would result in a lap time as much as 1.5 seconds per lap faster than what it is currently doing ( maybe more ), once fully optimised. Any comparisons have to be fully apples for apples, same rider, same bike, same tyres in same condition, same track and conditions. Just change the suspenders.
Id be happy to build one for Glenn to test but I guess he has rather boxed himself into an arrangement.[/QUOTE]

No need to run a resevoir Rob , you can supply a standard TTX unit into Posties, rear shock is "open" to any choice. I just chose the YSS remote resevoir as a custom option for mine so that its appearance is "along the lines of what was fitted to the original bike in the era". I like the idea in posties thatthe bikes should look somewhat like they did " back in the day" aye.
And no , i am certainly not "in a box" as you say, I am free to spend my hard earned dosh wherever i like , and i do like to do something a bit different sometimes as It tends to create interest, exposure and the development of new ideas. It seems from this thread that , that is exactly whats happend ! (at least in the world famous in NZ Kiwibiker............. :-) ), see ya this weekend - I expect at least one non-pc joke from you :-)
Cheers

[Robert Taylor]

Reading your last post regarding the manufacturing of twin shocks.
Why dont the the lower end manufacturers make big bore shocks like Ohlins Wp penske?
Its not a manufacturing/production problem
Its not a problem with basic design
The Asian manufacturers arent stupid
So what is stopping them ?
Is it a licensing/patent issue?
I imagine YSS would be sensitive to patent issues as they seem to be wanting to be a mainstream and worldwide business.
But others may not be so worried about patent violations

I seriously doubt you can patent a size and in any event there are always plenty of ways of circumventing patents. Most of it will be plain economics and the reasons will be varied.

For example;

1) It may be that its far more economical to produce twin shock springs in a certain ( relatively small ) internal diameter, because the spring manufacturers are geared up for that base diameter and supply in that to a number of other shock manufacturers including oem suppliers. Economy of scale. If the ''ideal'' size is irregular / uncommon and the numbers are relatively low then the unit cost goes up quite dramatically. Smaller id springs dictate smaller id body tubes.

2) Maybe similarly so with body tube for all the same reasons as above.

3) In fairness there are a number of earlier model bikes ( and some commuter bikes ) that cannot accept big bore shocks. So again economy of scale, better performance and consistency of performance exists with bigger bore shocks but if you are making them for a smaller number of models ( as WP, Penske and Ohlins do ) then the price goes up.

4) Overall less raw material costs. The Asians more than any other race of manufacturers are masters at making everything as minimalist as possible, over a wide variety of day to day goods. Minimalist is a broad term and I make comparison of humble floating gas pistons, minimalist machining processes that would otherwise reduce weight as much as possible. Bladder shocks, cheaper to manufacture than a floating gas piston shock because you dont have to have a highly accurate micro finished bore for the gas piston to glide in. Much more frequent servicing required in gas bladder shocks due to the migration of gas through the bladder into the oil exacerbated by inevitable pressure imbalance fluctuations that occur during shock function. Steel piston and rebound holder bosses instead of lightweight ( and therefore more responsive ) anodised high spec aluminium alloy, typically 7075T6. Etc.

5) Remember that given all of the above budget and mid price manufacturers are more willing to accept performance, quality and longevity compromises because end price is the over-riding preoccupation. In that light that is also why the laboratory, road and track testing is nowhere near to the level of the top three manufacturers, because it reflects in the end price of the shock!

Finally add some slick catch phrases from the marketing men and you are in business! Im not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with the mentality of budget and mid price manufacturers, but like any marketing and race results you have to read between the lines. Its dangerous to take everything at face value.

[Robert Taylor]

[PART QUOTE=Robert Taylor;
With respect to Post Classic its now possible to build TTX36 with a hose reservoir and of course internal top out spring. In a bike such as Glens that would result in a lap time as much as 1.5 seconds per lap faster than what it is currently doing ( maybe more ), once fully optimised. Any comparisons have to be fully apples for apples, same rider, same bike, same tyres in same condition, same track and conditions. Just change the suspenders.
Id be happy to build one for Glenn to test but I guess he has rather boxed himself into an arrangement.

No need to run a resevoir Rob , you can supply a standard TTX unit into Posties, rear shock is "open" to any choice. I just chose the YSS remote resevoir as a custom option for mine so that its appearance is "along the lines of what was fitted to the original bike in the era". I like the idea in posties thatthe bikes should look somewhat like they did " back in the day" aye.
And no , i am certainly not "in a box" as you say, I am free to spend my hard earned dosh wherever i like , and i do like to do something a bit different sometimes as It tends to create interest, exposure and the development of new ideas. It seems from this thread that , that is exactly whats happend ! (at least in the world famous in NZ Kiwibiker............. :-) ), see ya this weekend - I expect at least one non-pc joke from you :-)
Cheers[/QUOTE]

The TTX36 with hose gives more flexibility of installation, especially in models that are too tight to accept a piggyback type. Also Im being mindful like you in preserving the period look, at least in that respect. If anything too radical is introduced into Post Classic then heaven forbid!!
In the realm of new ideas Ohlins are inarguably light years ahead as ( frankly ) there is nothing new in any of the budget and mid price stuff.
Yes non PC jokes no problem

[gixerracer]

Now I guess your going to tell us that if codgy had a ohlins he would have been winning F1 and beating sloan 2.?
No need to run a resevoir Rob , you can supply a standard TTX unit into Posties, rear shock is "open" to any choice. I just chose the YSS remote resevoir as a custom option for mine so that its appearance is "along the lines of what was fitted to the original bike in the era". I like the idea in posties thatthe bikes should look somewhat like they did " back in the day" aye.
And no , i am certainly not "in a box" as you say, I am free to spend my hard earned dosh wherever i like , and i do like to do something a bit different sometimes as It tends to create interest, exposure and the development of new ideas. It seems from this thread that , that is exactly whats happend ! (at least in the world famous in NZ Kiwibiker............. :-) ), see ya this weekend - I expect at least one non-pc joke from you :-)
Cheers

The TTX36 with hose gives more flexibility of installation, especially in models that are too tight to accept a piggyback type. Also Im being mindful like you in preserving the period look, at least in that respect. If anything too radical is introduced into Post Classic then heaven forbid!!
In the realm of new ideas Ohlins are inarguably light years ahead as ( frankly ) there is nothing new in any of the budget and mid price stuff.
Yes non PC jokes no problem[/QUOTE]

[coreys]

"In a bike such as Glens that would result in a lap time as much as 1.5 seconds per lap faster than what it is currently doing ( maybe more ), once fully optimised. "

Well then Rob, why dont you put one on a bike like Glen's and run it against him, im sure that your bike would win by the length of the straight.

"Ok put it this way, go for a ride with what has been fitted then go for a ride with the product we distribute, I know only too damn well which ones youll prefer. "

I disagree, because with the money i save, i can afford better brakes and probably a power commander as well. What you should be discussing is bang for your buck. Even people (like me) that give you a hard time will acknowledge that Ohlins are world leaders in suspension. That isnt in question, nor are your abilties.

But not everyone has 4-6K to spend on top end Ohlins kit (front and rear, plus set up and fitting). As you rightly point out YSS will deliver a superior ride then the OEM equipment. For some this is enough. Unfortunetly you come across as a tosser everytime you critisise people for daring to spend money that you havent clipped the ticket on.

[Robert Taylor]

"In a bike such as Glens that would result in a lap time as much as 1.5 seconds per lap faster than what it is currently doing ( maybe more ), once fully optimised. "

Well then Rob, why dont you put one on a bike like Glen's and run it against him, im sure that your bike would win by the length of the straight.

"Ok put it this way, go for a ride with what has been fitted then go for a ride with the product we distribute, I know only too damn well which ones youll prefer. "

I disagree, because with the money i save, i can afford better brakes and probably a power commander as well. What you should be discussing is bang for your buck. Even people (like me) that give you a hard time will acknowledge that Ohlins are world leaders in suspension. That isnt in question, nor are your abilties.

But not everyone has 4-6K to spend on top end Ohlins kit (front and rear, plus set up and fitting). As you rightly point out YSS will deliver a superior ride then the OEM equipment. For some this is enough. Unfortunetly you come across as a tosser everytime you critisise people for daring to spend money that you havent clipped the ticket on.

Where did you pluck 4 to 6k from? Its easy to assume and then base your argument on how out of whack the assumption is. We have new prices from Sweden that are significantly better and in real terms not that much greater than mid price products.

[Robert Taylor]

Now I guess your going to tell us that if codgy had a ohlins he would have been winning F1 and beating sloan 2.?

The TTX36 with hose gives more flexibility of installation, especially in models that are too tight to accept a piggyback type. Also Im being mindful like you in preserving the period look, at least in that respect. If anything too radical is introduced into Post Classic then heaven forbid!!
In the realm of new ideas Ohlins are inarguably light years ahead as ( frankly ) there is nothing new in any of the budget and mid price stuff.
Yes non PC jokes no problem[/QUOTE]

Te he he he, youre a stirring sod Craig, lucky I know your sense of humour. Sloan is as you realise by no means pushing it to the edge.

I did see the pain on a leading Aprilia riders face as he was bailed up by some guy with verbal diarrohea, apparently he was being told that Ohlins TTX shocks are s..t! Best we get the same guy to get a message to Max Biaggi and Leon Camier to tell the error of their ways!

[gixerracer]

Funny you mention that as I got told the same story along with many many more


Te he he he, youre a stirring sod Craig, lucky I know your sense of humour. Sloan is as you realise by no means pushing it to the edge.

I did see the pain on a leading Aprilia riders face as he was bailed up by some guy with verbal diarrohea, apparently he was being told that Ohlins TTX shocks are s..t! Best we get the same guy to get a message to Max Biaggi and Leon Camier to tell the error of their ways![/QUOTE]

[Ivan]

Funny you mention that as I got told the same story along with many many more

Te he he he, youre a stirring sod Craig, lucky I know your sense of humour. Sloan is as you realise by no means pushing it to the edge.

I did see the pain on a leading Aprilia riders face as he was bailed up by some guy with verbal diarrohea, apparently he was being told that Ohlins TTX shocks are s..t! Best we get the same guy to get a message to Max Biaggi and Leon Camier to tell the error of their ways![/QUOTE]

did you even post anything then cause that's the same as Robert's post

[gixerracer]

Think you need to learn to read man


did you even post anything then cause that's the same as Robert's post[/QUOTE]

[GSVR]

Great too see the YSS1000 circulating with some very modern machinery in F1 on Saturday. Highlight of the days racing for me. Pity the old girl decided to fall to bits on you with a couple of laps to go.

Perhaps you could sell Robert your intellectual property rights to the information you have on how set up post classics (or does that belong to the Duke?)

[Tony.OK]

Think you need to learn to read man

did you even post anything then cause that's the same as Robert's post

As long as ya can suss out that Motec pc on the Honda we'll excuse you for bein so messy with yer posts:blink::innocent:

[roadracingoldfart]

As long as ya can suss out that Motec pc on the Honda we'll excuse you for bein so messy with yer posts:blink::innocent:

Ahhh , them factory backed dudes have a "man "to sort the Motec's Tony.

[gixerracer]

You no it lol
Ahhh , them factory backed dudes have a "man "to sort the Motec's Tony.

[Robert Taylor]

Great too see the YSS1000 circulating with some very modern machinery in F1 on Saturday. Highlight of the days racing for me. Pity the old girl decided to fall to bits on you with a couple of laps to go.

Perhaps you could sell Robert your intellectual property rights to the information you have on how set up post classics (or does that belong to the Duke?)

REALITY CHECK,

Nothing can be taken away from Glens performance as he is a top National rider with a bike that is obviously developing good horsepower with good tyres and he is prepared to hang it out. Did you fit the FZ750 6 speed box as I suggested Glen? Also nothing can be taken away from emerging talent that has intermittently raced in the F1 class, Darren Humphries and Jamie Rajek, both of whom have lifted their game substanially. Add a newcomer on an Aprilia who once he slows down will go faster. Choppa is also riding at only 8 tenths if that, he doesnt need to and there is only so much base setup you can do on wet winter tracks with little temperature and grip. Preoccupation is getting time on the bike for the Nats and when there is some track temperature the real testing starts.
The fields are very thin and lack the National level guns i.e Craig, Hayden, Stroudy, Skatchill etc.

[Robert Taylor]

Great too see the YSS1000 circulating with some very modern machinery in F1 on Saturday. Highlight of the days racing for me. Pity the old girl decided to fall to bits on you with a couple of laps to go.

Perhaps you could sell Robert your intellectual property rights to the information you have on how set up post classics (or does that belong to the Duke?)

Heck I better have that for Ernie Cudby, no time to waste.

[Ivan]

and keep an eye out for my brother William to on his Triumph Daytona only his 4th time on the bike and is doing some impressive riding coming up to 7th place at one point in F1 until his crash but still finished 10th I think

Alot of these guy's are lifting there game plan alright its good will be good to see how the guys performance goes when some of these national level riders show up its only going to help them even more

[roadracingoldfart]

And i heard a rumor an old fart was going to make a cameo appearance this year too.

[Drew]

I agree 100%, fit Ohlins to just about anything and it will be "better"
But if there is no real problem (real or imagined) to solve then fitting Ohlins to make it better is just a case of making it better for the sake of making it better.
eg
A Lexus is "better" than a Toyota, should all Toyota owners rush out and buy a Lexus ?
If there is nothing actually "wrong" with your Toyota why would you? Unless you wanted a Lexus for the sake of having a Lexus
Same here, everyone knows fitting Ohlins will make their bike "better" but if what they have is working perfectly fine for their needs and they dont actually have a problem, then they may as well leave well enough alone. Which considering the number of bikes on the road with stock suspension, the vast majority of people do.
Of course if you want Ohlins for the sake of having Ohlins, and have money burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of bling

Nailed your own coffin there fella. This thread started in the racing section, (though I suspect it'll end in PD), and ON a race bike you want the best. No question, no exceptions. If you believe you are running the best then you're set, if you buy something you know not to be as good, you're putting a hurdle in your head before you sit on the bike. Unless of course you know you're not gonna get fuck all of a challenge from the competition, then you save a bit of money for the celebratory drinks after your wins.

I can see what put your nose out of joint to begin with in Robert posting an answer to an un asked question, but your argument is full of holes and misinformation.

When I see a WSB sporting a YSS sticker and doing well, I'll consider it a possible alternative, (albeit form an approved technician I feel I can trust). Till then I'll do my best, to emulate the best.

[sugilite]

Did you fit the FZ750 6 speed box as I suggested Glen?
Yep, and a OWO1 clutch also fits, the frame can be chopped and bought in a degree, if the exhaust is standard (unlikely), the exup valve can be removed. How do I know this? Because the "winner" of the PRODUCTION championship back in the day on the same model of bike had done all of that and much more. It's not heresay either, my mate bought that bike with chopped frame, minus exup and many, many other non standard bits and pieces. Said rider got a overseas ride after winning that championship and even though said bike was clearly heard making 5 upwards gear changes at levels, nothing was ever done. After the last championship race, he even had a cheek to ask me if I was racing the next season as apparently according to him, they needed the little guys like me competeing. Had the one hour window to protest him not just expired when he said that to me, I would have protested his bike, just like his distributer backed team mate had been begging me to do all season. I wonder if there are still royal road racing families immune from prosecuttion about these days too? Been waiting 20 years to get that gem off my chest :lol:

[Robert Taylor]

Yep, and a OWO1 clutch also fits, the frame can be chopped and bought in a degree, if the exhaust is standard (unlikely), the exup valve can be removed. How do I know this? Because the "winner" of the PRODUCTION championship back in the day on the same model of bike had done all of that and much more. It's not heresay either, my mate bought that bike with chopped frame, minus exup and many, many other non standard bits and pieces. Said rider got a overseas ride after winning that championship and even though said bike was clearly heard making 5 upwards gear changes at levels, nothing was ever done. After the last championship race, he even had a cheek to ask me if I was racing the next season as apparently according to him, they needed the little guys like me competeing. Had the one hour window to protest him not just expired when he said that to me, I would have protested his bike, just like his distributer backed team mate had been begging me to do all season. I wonder if there are still royal road racing families immune from prosecuttion about these days too? Been waiting 20 years to get that gem off my chest :lol:

Yes , built by an old friend of mine and by all accounts it worked rather well. Road racing ''royal families'' I think not. Closest to that were probably Wellington Motorcycles 6 hour production specials in the 70s through early 80s. Everyone was bending the rules in production racing.

[sugilite]

Yes, I did notice it worked rather well.
And yes, I once bought a certain Wellington Motorcycle 'production' bike before I started racing, it was insanely fast before it went bang 3 days after I bought it, then the replacement parts arrived and it seemed to lose a lot of power....go figure :no:

For the record, in my rookie year on a obsolete bike at the nats and with me starting my racing career on a big bore bike, on tracks I'd never seen, the powers that be impounded my bike after my 2nd podium finish to check it over. I was most relieved they did this as I was no cheater and it shut the wagging tongues up. I did find it interesting they impounded my bike when the year after I I think even motorcycling New Zealand's tea lady's cat knew about that "production" bike in question, so I think we will have to agree to disagree on the royal family thing.

I think one needs to be a certain personality type to actually gain any sort of satisfaction from winning by way of cheating. I just don't see the point myself.

And I forgot to mention in my earlier post and would like to clarify, just because I quoted Roberts post, in no way was I saying Robert was in any way involved.





Yes , built by an old friend of mine and by all accounts it worked rather well. Road racing ''royal families'' I think not. Closest to that were probably Wellington Motorcycles 6 hour production specials in the 70s through early 80s. Everyone was bending the rules in production racing.

[dipshit]

So in this and similar cases YSS would be as good as Ohlins. Certainly more bang for your buck, so when looked at in its entirety actually better than Ohlins.

When spending that kind of coin, I am happy spending an extra few hundred bucks to have the best even just for street use. Why not.

I was tossing up for a while between the cheaper option of rebuilding the standard shock or going for a TTX.

Then was talking to an old friend at a rally who had just fitted good suspension to his off-road 4WD and was astonished at the difference. It could soak up bumps like they weren't there yet still gave a firm non wallowing ride.

So when I mentioned I was deciding between rebuilding or getting an Ohlins, he asked how much to rebuild the OEM shock...? how much for the Ohlins...?

His reply... "don't fuck around and just get the TTX"

[coreys]

Where did you pluck 4 to 6k from? Its easy to assume and then base your argument on how out of whack the assumption is. We have new prices from Sweden that are significantly better and in real terms not that much greater than mid price products.

This is quite possiblay the dumbest question every asked on kiwibiker.

But i will humour you...Where did i get the $4 to 6k amount from? the answer is YOU you bloody twat!

Please refer to your own advertising on page 96 of Bike Rider magazine issue 62: and i quote:


"ohlins fgk145 front fork cartridge kit. the ultimate ........blah blah blah.....retail incl $3499.90"
"ohlins YA888 TTX36 rear shock. dramatically improve....blah blah blah..retail incl $2799.90"

Now unless my maths is wrong that comes to a wee total of $6299.80 PLUS fitting costs.

And before you start your normal wank fest saying i have misquoted, or im not comaparing apples with appples and all the usual crap that comes from you, my post you quoted clearly stated that not everyone has $4 to $6k to spend on TOP OHLINS KIT

[Robert Taylor]

This is quite possiblay the dumbest question every asked on kiwibiker.

But i will humour you...Where did i get the $4 to 6k amount from? the answer is YOU you bloody twat!

Please refer to your own advertising on page 96 of Bike Rider magazine issue 62: and i quote:


"ohlins fgk145 front fork cartridge kit. the ultimate ........blah blah blah.....retail incl $3499.90"
"ohlins YA888 TTX36 rear shock. dramatically improve....blah blah blah..retail incl $2799.90"

Now unless my maths is wrong that comes to a wee total of $6299.80 PLUS fitting costs.

And before you start your normal wank fest saying i have misquoted, or im not comaparing apples with appples and all the usual crap that comes from you, my post you quoted clearly stated that not everyone has $4 to $6k to spend on TOP OHLINS KIT

You are now well behind the eight ball with pricing. Given the strength of our NZ$ against greenbacks, dumping that was going on and a parallell importer we have been able to negotiate a much better pricing regime with Ohlins, plus we have trimmed our margins to the bone. Add to that the the new NIX30 catridges have less parts in them and are significantly ( and I mean significantly ) cheaper. Crap? Aside from not suffering fools I believe Ive helped a lot of people on this site.
Onwards.

[dipshit]

What I sometimes find perplexing with motorcycling in NZ is the tall poppy syndrome towards anybody that spends any half decent money for top shelf stuff on their bikes. Go to a motorcycle rally and check out some of the home-made knock-up jobs done on so many bikes. It's like grunge and number 8 wire and on the cheap do-it-yourself fabrication is the in trend.

Yet in car circles in NZ... no one bats an eyelid at spending $80,000 on an engine... $10,000 on a set of rims... or $6,000 on an exhaust system. Not to mention the coin spent on sound systems and paint jobs!

A couple of K for top shelf suspension and technical backup would be small fry in the eyes of some car enthusiasts I know.

[coreys]

You are now well behind the eight ball with pricing. Given the strength of our NZ$ against greenbacks, dumping that was going on and a parallell importer we have been able to negotiate a much better pricing regime with Ohlins, plus we have trimmed our margins to the bone. Add to that the the new NIX30 catridges have less parts in them and are significantly ( and I mean significantly ) cheaper. Crap? Aside from not suffering fools I believe Ive helped a lot of people on this site.
Onwards.

Ok then, fair enough, what is the exact price for the items i mentioned above? is it still within the 4-6k range?

PS i have read several of your posts that have provided help to people, i acknowledge that. the 'crap' i was refering to was the stuff dished out to anyone that dare to disagree with you.

[White trash]

What I sometimes find perplexing with motorcycling in NZ is the tall poppy syndrome towards anybody that spends any half decent money for top shelf stuff on their bikes. Go to a motorcycle rally and check out some of the home-made knock-up jobs done on so many bikes. It's like grunge and number 8 wire and on the cheap do-it-yourself fabrication is the in trend.

Yet in car circles in NZ... no one bats an eyelid at spending $80,000 on an engine... $10,000 on a set of rims... or $6,000 on an exhaust system. Not to mention the coin spent on sound systems and paint jobs!

A couple K for top shelf suspension and technical backup would be small fry in the eyes of some car enthusiasts I know.

Holy shit! We agree on something, I don't believe it.

Prior to me purchasing it, the previous owner of my car had spent around 6K on suspension, fully custom built three way adjustable Konis in each corner. Adding to that the price of a full nolathane kit out to make sure it was top notch and tighter than new. Full set of new brakes built by race brakes in Auckland, can't remeber the figure but I've got the receipt here somewhere. 4 and a half K on nicely customizing the leather interior to modernize it a bit. New steering rack with quicker ratio, pump, lines and a bloody big magnetic filter added. New dif with lower ratio and rebuilt and beefed up the trans for trackdays and drags.

This is a road and family car, used daily. If someone had dedicated the same time and investment to their road bike in NZ they'd be labled a poser and ridiculed behind their back. Fucken NZ cracks me up sometines

[crazy man]

YSS Suspension should be band alread first and sec in posties and good enough to get sec in the super bikes on a 21 year old bike!

[scracha]

YSS Suspension should be band alread first and sec in posties and good enough to get sec in the super bikes on a 21 year old bike!
Second in posties is running Ohlins mate.

[crazy man]

l see your right

[schrodingers cat]

nope just the front end and he lost that lol


So if you highside RT is better and if you lowside YSS is the way forward...


Is it good form to quote yourself? Here was my prediction earlier in the thread Ha Ha

[crazy man]

god noes what lm doing half the time lol

[Robert Taylor]

Ok then, fair enough, what is the exact price for the items i mentioned above? is it still within the 4-6k range?

PS i have read several of your posts that have provided help to people, i acknowledge that. the 'crap' i was refering to was the stuff dished out to anyone that dare to disagree with you.

Actually very close to 4k now ( no intention to split hairs and I hope you are of the same opinion) , we give special deals to racers ( always have ) and a lot of added value with ongoing backup. I think its also important for racers to build a good understanding of how their suspension works and responds to adjustment so they can both get the best out of it and to make informed calls of a setting direction when they come to us for changes.
Also of course we have level 1 ( modifying stock suspension and retaining as many stock parts as possible ), level 2 being Race Tech upgraded stock suspension components, level 2.5 if you like being a Ohlins rear and Race Tech upgraded front end ( very popular ) and Level 3 being full Ohlins. As per our national advertising catering to all budgets.
I happily disagree with lots of people! Ive told Glenn he has not made the best possible choice but we have amicable conversations and humour.

[gixerracer]

Yea but you are still a nob
Actually very close to 4k now ( no intention to split hairs and I hope you are of the same opinion) , we give special deals to racers ( always have ) and a lot of added value with ongoing backup. I think its also important for racers to build a good understanding of how their suspension works and responds to adjustment so they can both get the best out of it and to make informed calls of a setting direction when they come to us for changes.
Also of course we have level 1 ( modifying stock suspension and retaining as many stock parts as possible ), level 2 being Race Tech upgraded stock suspension components, level 2.5 if you like being a Ohlins rear and Race Tech upgraded front end ( very popular ) and Level 3 being full Ohlins. As per our national advertising catering to all budgets.
I happily disagree with lots of people! Ive told Glenn he has not made the best possible choice but we have amicable conversations and humour.

[Robert Taylor]

YSS Suspension should be band alread first and sec in posties and good enough to get sec in the super bikes on a 21 year old bike!

As I have said somewhere else Im not taking anything away from Glenns undoubted ability or having a fast bike, nor am I taking away the ever increasing abilities of the up and comers. But lets get it into context, this is not the Nationals! Aside from Sloan cruising at 70% possible pace at the front what other very top riders were there? You know the answer.

[Robert Taylor]

Yea but you are still a nob

And you still love me!

[Robert Taylor]

Yea but you are still a nob

Thankyou Sweetie for keeping me busy all season!

[Shaun]

Holy shit! We agree on something, I don't believe it.

Prior to me purchasing it, the previous owner of my car had spent around 6K on suspension, fully custom built three way adjustable Konis in each corner. Adding to that the price of a full nolathane kit out to make sure it was top notch and tighter than new. Full set of new brakes built by race brakes in Auckland, can't remeber the figure but I've got the receipt here somewhere. 4 and a half K on nicely customizing the leather interior to modernize it a bit. New steering rack with quicker ratio, pump, lines and a bloody big magnetic filter added. New dif with lower ratio and rebuilt and beefed up the trans for trackdays and drags.

This is a road and family car, used daily. If someone had dedicated the same time and investment to their road bike in NZ they'd be labled a poser and ridiculed behind their back. Fucken NZ cracks me up sometines

Go away and wank in ya car dick

[ktm]

HaHaHaha priceless!