That fucking sneaky give way rule

[bogan]

just caught me out, you know the one on the unmarked T-intersection that everyone ignores. Right turning from the bottom of the T has right of way over right turning from the LHS of the T. Months of people giving way lulled me into assuming right of way over the guy on the bottom bit of the T, he got a little upset about it though :shutup: thing is if he was a real arsehole he could have knocked me off my bike and I would have been at fault.

A change is being proposed to change the rule to what pretty much everyone does anyway.

So anyone else been caught out by it?

[slofox]

"So anyone else been caught out by it? "

No

[bogan]

"So anyone else been caught out by it? "

No

cos you give way? or cos nobody has forced the issue? poll is up now too btw

[p.dath]

The basic premise is, if someone can hit you in the drivers door (in a car), then you should be giving way to them. That's how I remember it.

[slofox]

cos you give way? or cos nobody has forced the issue? poll is up now too btw

Because I know what the rule book says. So I am always prepared to give way.

Having said that, more often than not, the person coming up the stem of the T gives way anyway. If I am coming up the stem of the T I am always ready to stop because most drivers do not know the rule and assume THEY have ROW...

[Dare]

Because I know what the rule book says. So I am always prepared to give way.

Having said that, more often than not, the person coming up the stem of the T gives way anyway. If I am coming up the stem of the T I am always ready to stop because most drivers do not know the rule and assume THEY have ROW...

Also in most cases the stem of the T has a give way or stop sign, it's pretty rare to find one that doesn't have either around this neck of the woods.

[pzkpfw]

The best bit is when the dopey bugger waves "thanks" at you, as though you gave way out of the kindness of your heart.

[steve_t]

What makes it even more complicated is that the road code suggests that the entrance to a carpark is to be treated as an unmarked T intersection ie the person leaving the carpark turning right has the right of way over the person turning right into the carparking area. Of course, this hardly ever happens. I basically treat the carpark entrance as having a giveway sign these days. With the unmarked T insection on the road, I used to live down one. I'd do the right thing and stop miles back to let the person turning out go first but most of the time we'd both just be sitting there for 5-10 seconds til I waved the other person to go

[Maha]

Get three females at an unmarked intersection and watch them all sit there giggling.

[vifferman]

A change is being proposed to change the rule to what pretty much everyone does anyway.

Really? I'd heard that abolishment of the left-turning traffic fiasco was on the cards, but not anything else.
The basic premise of our give way rules (apart from the 'left-turning traffic' nonsense) is "Give way to your right", which is why the LHS of the T has to give way to the bottom of the T. If they change this rule specifically for T intersections, then it would be at variance with all other intersections. That makes no sense (so 'they' probably will adopt it).
I believe what happens oftentimes is people have silly made up rules, like "the little road gives way to the bigger road", and often the bottom of the T is a narrower road than the through road.
The basic thing here is your average Kiwi driver is an eejit. That's why in nearly 11 years of living on my street, I've had two (2!!) people give way to me when I turn right out of the supermarket carpark and they're turning right into it. I've also had numerous people NOT give way to me at the top end of our street (a T) when I turn right and they're coming from my left to turn right into our street.
Cocks.

[neels]

I give way cos that's what the law says, but it's amazing how many people sit there with a dumb look on their faces or gesticulating for me to go, I just sit there otherwise if they go and hit me it's my fault.

We have one of these intersections at the end of the street where I work, I love the looks of terror and abusive gestures I get when I just carry on round when other people don't give way to me, I only hope that when they get where they're going and have a rant about it someone points out that they were in the wrong. It helps that I'm usually in a company car so if it does get bent, it's not my problem.

[bogan]

Really? I'd heard that abolishment of the left-turning traffic fiasco was on the cards, but not anything else.
The basic premise of our give way rules (apart from the 'left-turning traffic' nonsense) is "Give way to your right", which is why the LHS of the T has to give way to the bottom of the T. If they change this rule specifically for T intersections, then it would be at variance with all other intersections. That makes no sense (so 'they' probably will adopt it).
I believe what happens oftentimes is people have silly made up rules, like "the little road gives way to the bigger road", and often the bottom of the T is a narrower road than the through road.
The basic thing here is your average Kiwi driver is an eejit. That's why in nearly 11 years of living on my street, I've had two (2!!) people give way to me when I turn right out of the supermarket carpark and they're turning right into it. I've also had numerous people NOT give way to me at the top end of our street (a T) when I turn right and they're coming from my left to turn right into our street.
Cocks.

yeh, the proposal has both, I think the problem with the T intersection is so many have give way signs on the stem anyway, when the only difference becomes a lack of a give way sign, the motorist just assumes there should be one anyway, like I did :oops:

[Scuba_Steve]

This usually comes down to assumption driving (to try & minimize confusion), while I'm prepared to do the legal (& stupid) process, most of the time the "common sense" process takes presence i.e. the same process as every other T intersection (which is the ONLY thing that needs changing in our "Give Way" law). But obviously I do this slower than I would a normal T intersection all while reading the other driver as to see what they're planning to do in an attempt to minimize the chance of an accident.

[rainman]

Had on of these on my regular commute home, absolute PITA because it's a bus route, and the last thing I was it to be flattened by a bus. Road (top of the tee) also had speed diversion thingies in it just before the intersection, so it was a bit tight for traffic coming up behind me to squeeze past when they figured out I was obeying the law. Also the right hand side of the T dropped off down a slope fairly soon after the intersection, and cars often appeared from down there at speed.

Approaching he intersection was a game of "look out behind, shit is that bus going to stop, will he, won't he, what's approaching ahead.... go". Or business as usual, I suppose.

Then the council painted a give way on the bottom part of the T and it all became much easier. They also removed the speed diversion thingies.

[duckonin]

And we expect visitors from over the water to get road rules right, when heaps in their own country do not know the rules, go figure....

[schrodingers cat]

I struggle a bit with the stop rule that says you must come to a complete halt. While we're busy re-writing the give way rule that you don't get can we change this too?
Anybody else want anything changed?

Whats the world coming to if one can't be right all the time?

[mashman]

Whats the world coming to if one can't be right all the time?

Then you'll just have to accept that you're half left also :)...

[Laava]

Get three females at an unmarked intersection and watch them all sit there giggling.

I like it when their boosies jiggle!

[Ixion]

Why is it sneaky? It's been that way since at least 1936. Plenty of time for people to notice it I would have thought.

[bogan]

Why is it sneaky? It's been that way since at least 1936. Plenty of time for people to notice it I would have thought.

exactly, and thats why its sneaky, fuck all people seem to have noticed, cos fuck all people obey it. And I used to find it way easier just to go (from lhs of T) instead of waiting and gesturing for ages till they utilised their right of way, somewhere in between its become force of habit and i just assumed i did have right of way, I'll remember bout it now, thought this thread may remind others of it too.

[Devil]

I struggle a bit with the stop rule that says you must come to a complete halt.
Forgive me if I haven't detected any sarcasm or other subtlety, but I didn't think the term 'Stop' was ambiguous in any way shape or form.

[bogan]

Forgive me if I haven't detected any sarcasm or other subtlety, but I didn't think the term 'Stop' was ambiguous in any way shape or form.

really? my sarcasm-o-meter was getting some pretty high readings :lol:

[schrodingers cat]

Forgive me if I haven't detected any sarcasm or other subtlety, but I didn't think the term 'Stop' was ambiguous in any way shape or form.

Here in Christchurch semantics are as fluid as our understanding of what various lights mean. Red is simply a more serious orange and you should hurry along.

ps - your sarcasm detector needs new batteries...:innocent:

[grusomhat]

The best bit is when the dopey bugger waves "thanks" at you, as though you gave way out of the kindness of your heart.

Eh, I do that to say thank you for actually knowing the road rules.

[Devil]

Here in Christchurch semantics are as fluid as our understanding of what various lights mean. Red is simply a more serious orange and you should hurry along.

ps - your sarcasm detector needs new batteries...:innocent:

*sigh*
I was afraid you'd say that.
/needs more beer.

[Max Preload]

If it's changed the people who know the correct way already will still get ignored by the fuckwits who don't simply because the fuckwits will have heard it's changed and will then do the opposite of what they've always done and as a result THEY'LL STILL BE DOING IT FUCKING WRONG! :angry2:

[bogan]

If it's changed the people who know the correct way already will still get ignored by the fuckwits who don't simply because the fuckwits will have heard it's changed and will then do the opposite of what they've always done and as a result THEY'LL STILL BE DOING IT FUCKING WRONG! :angry2:

yeh but once the rule has changed there be less of them doing it wrong!

[Ixion]

They'll be wrong just as often as theya re now. You assume that the people who "get it wrong" now do so because theya re confused, and conscientiously following an incorrect interpretation fo the rules. No such thing. They have no consistent rule at all.

[bogan]

They'll be wrong just as often as theya re now. You assume that the people who "get it wrong" now do so because theya re confused, and conscientiously following an incorrect interpretation fo the rules. No such thing. They have no consistent rule at all.

I'm assuming that the 90% or more of drivers who i see giving way to thier left when on the stem will continue to do so after the change, so yeh, obviously with that assumption less will get it wrong. Though people in other parts of the country may be more aware of the rule than they are here?

[Sentox]

When you boil it down, it's just give way to traffic from your right, which is drummed into everyone enough. I think the confusion arises because the vast majority of T-intersections are controlled, to the point that it becomes habit.

[rustic101]

So anyone else been caught out by it?

Generally if you get hit in the Right you are in the Wrong. Of course there are always exceptions; like incorrect lane change etc etc..

[piston broke]

i 'give way' alway's
or,at least ,
i'm alway's ready to give way,in the right or wrong

[piston broke]

double post.
But what is really so hard about give way to the right?

[MaxB]

What gives me the shits is when the paint wears off the road and non locals start treating it like an uncontrolled intersection.

Thinking of one particular turn in Manukau City. The Give Way paint has faded so that in the rain it becomes invisible. Let the chaos begin.

[Bikemad]

Get three females at an unmarked intersection and watch them all sit there giggling.
or four asians at a roundabout...............

[Mudfart]

it has always been a fucked up rule. in 19 yrs of driving i have never given way from LHS of T (I am turning right off the main arterial).
only once has someone been pissed and that was when i was 18, and had my learners on a 125 suzuki.
If I remember the road code from many revisions back, it said the person turning off of the main arterial rd always gets the right of way, to decongest any traffic issues, as the other person at the give way or stop sign, is not in direct traffic flow.

[Max Preload]

The poll is shit. It's ambiguous. I give way correctly.


If I remember the road code from many revisions back, it said the person turning off of the main arterial rd always gets the right of way, to decongest any traffic issues, as the other person at the give way or stop sign, is not in direct traffic flow.

Jesus H. Christ. Hand your license in and take the bus. There's no such thing as the MAIN ROAD RULE. The person on a GIVE WAY or STOP in the side road gives way because they're on a GIVE WAY or STOP. In the absence of either, it's an uncontrolled intersection and thus the GIVE WAY RULE applies.

I just can't understand why people struggle with this simple, logical concept. The people with the most lanes to cross get right of way at an uncontrolled intersection. The guy turning right into a sideroad has to cross only one lane. The car leaving the sideroad turning right has to cross two lanes. A car turning left into the sideroad doesn't have to cross any lanes and gives way to the vehicle turning right into the sideroad who has to one lane of opposing traffic. If all three vehicles arrive at the same time two can go at once (the left turning into the sideroad and right turning out of the side road).

[bogan]

The poll is shit. It's ambiguous. I give way correctly.

clearly that'd be option 1 then. Not ambiguous at all.

[schrodingers cat]

I just can't understand why people struggle with this simple, logical concept.

There's your probem. The problem with common sense is that it isn't. Make something idiot proof and a better idiot comes along.

All this hit in the RHS and you're wrong. This situation is an exception to that misleading piece of shit.

On an UNCONTROLLED intersection give way to the right

[Ixion]

Jesus H. Christ. Hand your license in and take the bus. There's no such thing as the MAIN ROAD RULE. The person on a GIVE WAY or STOP in the side road gives way because they're on a GIVE WAY or STOP. In the absence of either, it's an uncontrolled intersection and thus the GIVE WAY RULE applies.

Jumping J Christ on a motorised pogo stick.

This myth just refuses to die, doesn't it. I used to think it was old law that people were hanging onto. But I have now checked back through the road rules right through to the 1930s , and THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY SUCH RULE IN NEW ZEALAND.

And, logically how could there be ? Who is to determine what is a main road and what is not. It would be necessary to classify all roads. As they do in Pomgolia. Which is where I think the myth originates. Another example of immigrants demanding that this country should be "just like back home".

There is not and never has been any rule differentiating main road and other traffic in NZ.

Get over it .

[Tunahunter]

That rule has been around since '78 - half the population know it - all bikers should fear it - size is everything!

[sinfull]

I'm afraid i don't help educate ppl on the ROW rule at uncontrolled or controlled intersections ! If they hesitate i'm gone !

[Mudfart]

The poll is shit. It's ambiguous. I give way correctly.



Jesus H. Christ. Hand your license in and take the bus. There's no such thing as the MAIN ROAD RULE. The person on a GIVE WAY or STOP in the side road gives way because they're on a GIVE WAY or STOP. In the absence of either, it's an uncontrolled intersection and thus the GIVE WAY RULE applies.

I just can't understand why people struggle with this simple, logical concept. The people with the most lanes to cross get right of way at an uncontrolled intersection. The guy turning right into a sideroad has to cross only one lane. The car leaving the sideroad turning right has to cross two lanes. A car turning left into the sideroad doesn't have to cross any lanes and gives way to the vehicle turning right into the sideroad who has to one lane of opposing traffic. If all three vehicles arrive at the same time two can go at once (the left turning into the sideroad and right turning out of the side road).

I call bullshit. Ive never had an accident at any T intersections, and like i said only one guy ever has tooted, 15 years ago...
And Im very surprised not more people have voted for I assume right of way.
You can claim to be as righteous as you want, but your still full of a 1/2 pound of shit.
I must have gone through 000's of these turns by now, no problems. And when I require to give way, I fucking well do it, any other rule boasts retarded thought. and im not taking the bus coz the bus smells and so do the people riding on it.

[WuZards-Eugene]

I tend to go for the "will this fuck me up rule", so even if I am in the right, if I see myself getting fucked up, then I'll wait. Seem's to work pretty well, and have managed to avoid most of this "shit that cunt almost hit me even though im in the right" crap.

Completely different story when im in the car though. I follow the rules to the letter and any car/bus/taxi thats about to play chicken with me, well im definitely up for it. I make exceptions for bikes and trucks, but I don't mind taking on buses with some of the stupid shit i watch them do whilst im riding.

[bogan]

I call bullshit. Ive never had an accident at any T intersections, and like i said only one guy ever has tooted, 15 years ago...
And Im very surprised not more people have voted for I assume right of way.
You can claim to be as righteous as you want, but your still full of a 1/2 pound of shit.
I must have gone through 000's of these turns by now, no problems. And when I require to give way, I fucking well do it, any other rule boasts retarded thought. and im not taking the bus coz the bus smells and so do the people riding on it.

yeh i'm a little surprised at how many voted alway give way. Coming up the stem at same intersection today and a ute gave way to 3 cars turning right across him, so that makes 5 vehicles doing it wrong and one doing it right since yesterday.

[SMOKEU]

Some of those give way rules trip me out too much.

[Urano]

:laugh:

i've been studying your road rules for a while, even because it seems not necessary for me to have any oral or practical examination to drive...
nonetheless i'd really like not to crash on the first corner... (i'm going to let you know the timetable of my car movements, so to be possible for you to get safe at home :D :D :D )

well, my useless two cents on the question is that your politicians are a bit confused... :)
you drive on the left, but give way in the right, then use km and not miles, but you have "dollars"... what did they do? put all the possibilities in a blender and took out what remained?
now, keep focused... i mean... you drive on the left... why, for God's sake, you have to give way to vehicle coming from your RIGHT????? on a normal 4 way intersection, turning on your left, it's absolutely nonsense. and then the T.

well, about the Ts i had the same opinion, then i saw the light: there, MAYBE, it is possible to make sense...
in italy, as in every other part of the world, i think, when i come to a T i have to give way to both the directions not turning in the base of the T, and also to people turning from the opposite lane to the base of the T.
considering that in most occasions you have anyway to wait and make sure that even people coming from the nearest lane and turning down DO effectively turn and they did not forgot the indicator or changed their mind at last second and so on, it ends that you wait for the people from one direction, you wait for the others, and you spend half your afternoon waiting for 50 meters to bang your car in the move with tyre screech...
when i've seen your T rule, it made sense. ok, you have to turn from the base to the right: people coming from the left and turning down have to wait for you, and remaining in the middle of their lane they force others behind them to wait or at least to keep left edge, opening room for you.
so you have to wait only for one lane to free.

it could be pretty intelligent, after all.
if i don't turn down a bridge not being used to drive on the left, i'll let you know after a practical use... :niceone:

[Mudfart]

i was riding my bike to work last might, and at the T intersection, the guy who by law must give way to me, absolutely had no intention of doing so, and thats what I expect, thats what I give and thats what I have always received. Amen.

[schrodingers cat]

When it comes to uncontrolled intersections I know my rules but I use tham as a guideline. What I watch for is their eyes, the position of their hands and what their wheels are doing. Same at roundabouts. Anything else is a bonus.
Its the law of scale and 2 wheels generally is the loser...

[davebullet]

The give way rules are easy and haven't changed in the 24 years I've had my license. I've seen people's understanding deteriorate.

The reason people find them hard - is because of inconsistent application due to people who don't care, are in a rush, have a 4wd mentality (I'm bigger, so I have right of way), etc...

Changing the rules, won't change attitudes. I think it would just lead to more confusion (from old bastards like me).

If they change the rules, a retest should be mandatory. It doesn't have to be a practical. A visit to the AA or similar where you do the current learners multichoice.

[Jantar]

Many years ago I was given a piecde of advice that was perfect.

"Irrespective of any road rules, you don't have "right of way" until the other driver gives it to you!"

[BMWST?]

Really? I'd heard that abolishment of the left-turning traffic fiasco was on the cards, but not anything else.
The basic premise of our give way rules (apart from the 'left-turning traffic' nonsense) is "Give way to your right", which is why the LHS of the T has to give way to the bottom of the T. If they change this rule specifically for T intersections, then it would be at variance with all other intersections. That makes no sense (so 'they' probably will adopt it).
I believe what happens oftentimes is people have silly made up rules, like "the little road gives way to the bigger road", and often the bottom of the T is a narrower road than the through road.
The basic thing here is your average Kiwi driver is an eejit. That's why in nearly 11 years of living on my street, I've had two (2!!) people give way to me when I turn right out of the supermarket carpark and they're turning right into it. I've also had numerous people NOT give way to me at the top end of our street (a T) when I turn right and they're coming from my left to turn right into our street.
Cocks.
well it might change....there may be an overide which says something like,people on side road give way to people on main road....which is even more variable than the current rules

[Fluffy Cat]

[QUOTE=BMWST?;1129760053]well it might change....there may be an overide which says something like,people on side road give way to people on main road....which is even more variable than the current rules[/QUOT

Nail on head...the simplest solution is often the best. Complex systems lead to misinterpretation. Just what we have here in NZ.

[Max Preload]

And when I require to give way, I fucking well do it


in 19 yrs of driving i have never given way from LHS of T (I am turning right off the main arterial).

That means you don't. Clearly you are a complete fuckwit like so many on the road - completely oblivious. I always toot at arseholes like you.

[Mudfart]

ahahaha what ever stress monkey.
and how much do you stress out at all those tens of thousands who are incorrectly indicating around roundabouts?
because a crap load of people are doing it wrong, yet think they are right.
living with you must be bliss.

[bogan]

ahahaha what ever stress monkey.
and how much do you stress out at all those tens of thousands who are incorrectly indicating around roundabouts?
because a crap load of people are doing it wrong, yet think they are right.
living with you must be bliss.

half the time there isn't even time to indicate before you leave anyways, just straightline that shit ;)

[bikemike]

[QUOTE=BMWST?;1129760053]well it might change....there may be an overide which says something like,people on side road give way to people on main road....which is even more variable than the current rules[/QUOT

Nail on head...the simplest solution is often the best. Complex systems lead to misinterpretation. Just what we have here in NZ.

I agree with this. The rules aren't hard to understand, even for challenged individuals. But that's not what matters; what matters is how intuitive it is to apply the rules in practice. The debate that rambles on and on, pro and anti, change the rules and keep them is all we need to show that the system we use is flawed.

I had a woman ranting at me the other day, as I sat co-pilot with a learner car driver. We had stalled waiting to turn right at an uncontrolled T - on the side road. Woman driving on through road wanted to turn right and gave way to us. She got very irate that we did not move and eventually I gestured to her that we were stalled. She muttered on about 'the road rules' as she went around - and then promptly parked on the wrong side of the road. WTF?

I am a Pom, and though I have been here eight years and remember little of the specific rules there I do remember one thing. One very important thing. I never ever had to think twice about who had right of way. Isn't that the way it should be? Even when I've been back, twice, I can jump in a car and lo, the world is as it should be.

Indeed, there we do think of main road and minor road, but more literally in a sense of THROUGH road and side road. I can get off my through road before you can join it - I think. (It's hard to think of it from here, I'd need to go check the rules). This works well. The objection might be the flow of traffic, but I'd say three things to that:

1) Over there this is solved by liberal use of roundabouts, slip roads and traffic lights. We have less of those.

2) The flow of traffic is messed up with our rules here. Say I'm going through, in front is a left turner, ahead a right turner. If I have room to squeeze past the left turner I jinx the whole operation. The left turner has to watch me to see whether I will STAY IN MY BLOODY LANE or go round, the right turner has to decide whether or not his passenger door is about to get T-boned by me, or if it is safe to assume the rule. I have to watch my back for the guy behind who can't understand why I am sticking to my lane and he even tries to go round me..... The the left turner gives up and goes, just as the right turner goes, and the pedestrian steps out.

3) At the uncontrolled T, the right turner from the side road has to consider not only whether the right turner, on his left is going to yield, but whether the guy behind that guy is going to zip round the inside (on the pavement or verge if necessary) to continue as unimpeded as possible on the through road, and therefore jeopardise my right turn. I'm sure as hell I will sit and wait until - ooh, until it's safe to go.

Oh, and if there's oncoming traffic and I'm waiting to turn right into a side road, then I also need to know whether the guy on my right waiting to pull out of the side street is actually waiting to go left (so I can go) or right (I yield). I may not be able to tell from his position in the road, or his indicators.

Too much divining required.

[Max Preload]

and how much do you stress out at all those tens of thousands who are incorrectly indicating around roundabouts?
because a crap load of people are doing it wrong, yet think they are right.

If it stresses you out so much, start to do it properly or stay the fuck off the road, cock. :finger:

[Donzzz]

The best bit is when the dopey bugger waves "thanks" at you, as though you gave way out of the kindness of your heart.

Haha lol, same. I always give way, sometime dipping my headlight to catch his attention. I get an appreciative wave almost everytime...

[Mudfart]

If it stresses you out so much, start to do it properly or stay the fuck off the road, cock. :finger:
last night when i went to work, 4 cars puilled up at the T intersection, all assumed right of way, and i gave it to them. they were by law in the wrong, and one was a cop car. i have no problem with letting them go, or i become yet another car vs bike accident.
but hey maybe i should just go for it, for fear of some some anonomous internet user getting personal with abusive directed language.

[Clivoris]

What makes it even more complicated is that the road code suggests that the entrance to a carpark is to be treated as an unmarked T intersection ie the person leaving the carpark turning right has the right of way over the person turning right into the carparking area. Of course, this hardly ever happens. I basically treat the carpark entrance as having a giveway sign these days. With the unmarked T insection on the road, I used to live down one. I'd do the right thing and stop miles back to let the person turning out go first but most of the time we'd both just be sitting there for 5-10 seconds til I waved the other person to go

Hehe. Not that long ago I had a $1500 transit van with bullbars which was excellent for sticking to the correct interpretation of the give way laws. The look of panic on misinformed drivers faces was always priceless. Wouldn't dare risk it in me new van.

[Max Preload]

last night when i went to work, 4 cars puilled up at the T intersection, all assumed right of way, and i gave it to them. they were by law in the wrong, and one was a cop car. i have no problem with letting them go, or i become yet another car vs bike accident.
but hey maybe i should just go for it, for fear of some some anonomous internet user getting personal with abusive directed language.

If you're on a bike it's a self-preservation tactic. If I'm not given way in the car I damn well TAKE it.

[Road-rash]

The basic premise is, if someone can hit you in the drivers door (in a car), then you should be giving way to them. That's how I remember it.

That's quite a good way to remember it actually

[Max Preload]

That's quite a good way to remember it actually

I disagree. That's exactly what's got us into the current situation - dumbing it down too much. Also it only applies if neither vehicle is on a control. A lot of people don't even know the STOP, GIVE WAY & UNCONTROLLED hierarchy.