Anti-1080 ecoterrorists

[Hitcher]

I am fast tiring of populist local government politicians rolling over and succumbing to emotive claptrap rather than rationality backed by sound science.

It looks as though the Westland District Council is about to join the ranks of the nut job Coromandel and Taupo District Councils in declaring their region 1080 free. By doing so, they will open the floodgates to a massive biodiversity, ecological and economic disaster.

One would think that West Coasters would recognise the huge economic, social and cultural benefits to come from preserving and enhancing their natural environment. But by looking to ban 1080 -- the only effective means of diminishing possum populations -- they will sacrifice ecotourism, dairying, forestry, the jobs of thousands of Coasters, plus condemning the region's native plants and birdlife to degeneration, decline and the eventual extinction of some species.

Why? Because people who like shooting things in the wild, owners of unrestrained dogs, and the wider "anti" movement have whipped up a whole bunch of misplaced and uninformed public emotion.

Possums are a heinous pest. The are an exotic pest with no natural predators. Uncontrolled, they eat huge amounts of vegetation, breed like rabbits, compete with other species for available food sources, eat birds and their eggs, and spread bovine tuberculosis and other diseases.

These anti-1080 people believe that possums can be controlled by trapping and shooting. That isn't possible at anything like a reasonable cost or indeed even if the available money was unrestricted.

Much of the West Coast is a vast natural wilderness. Thousands of people visit every year to marvel at it. I shudder to imagine it decimated and dying, which would be its fate without 1080.

Yes, there is some by-kill from 1080 operations. By that I mean that animals other than possums, rats, and mustelids are killed including some native birds. However the Department of Conservation has robust data that shows that the recovery of native bird species after 1080 drops when possum numbers are dramatically reduced, is significant.

I really hope that the Westland District Council makes a rational and properly informed decision about 1080. Particularly if they take seriously their role as environmental custodians and promoters of economic and social benefits for the community they are elected to represent. New Zealand generally and the West Coast in particular needs courageous leaders. So too does our fragile and threatened biodiversity.

[SMOKEU]

The government should do more to encourage people to shoot possums, who can then sell the skins to government agencies which can then turn them into clothing to sell. That way everyone wins (except for the possums).

[Hitcher]

The government should do more to encourage people to shoot possums, who can then sell the skins to government agencies which can then turn them into clothing to sell. That way everyone wins (except for the possums).

The Government could do that. Not that it would make any meaningful difference to possum numbers in the absence of 1080.

The fact that useful things can be made from possum by-products is a red herring, said he typing this whilst wearing his merino-possum jersey, and should not be taken seriously as any benefits are significantly outweighed by the costs.

[kave]

The problem is councils are elected in elections that most people dont bother to participate in, leaving them open to being hijacked by minority interests. Councils are stupid because people are stupid.

[Jonno.]

Why have a debate when you can have a protest.

[SMOKEU]

I suppose if the government did encourage people to shoot possums, then some drunk inbred hillbilly would accidentally shoot themself, which could bring a bit of trouble for the council.

[Tank]

then some drunk inbred hillbilly would accidentally shoot themselfs

Speaking of drunk inbred hillbilly's - my firearms licence arrived last week - sweeeet!

[Tank]

I think that a lot of the problem is 'country' decisions are being made by 'town' people who have little to no understanding, and just think that 1080 is not what they would want outside their home.

A educated person who understands the problems would not come to the same conclusion.

[SMOKEU]

Speaking of drunk inbred hillbilly's - my firearms licence arrived last week - sweeeet!

Mine arrived years ago, now make sure you're properly armed!

[Ixion]

Much of the West Coast is a vast natural wilderness. Thousands of people visit every year to marvel at it. I shudder to imagine it decimated and dying, which would be its fate without 1080.


Somewhat alarmist,perhaps?

After all, the possum was introduced in 1837 , 1080 not until 1954. Blossom the possum had 117 years to destroy the West Coast untrammelled. The fact that the Coast and its bush survived as a natural wilderness is a fairly good reason to suppose that Blossom is unlikely to wreak the havoc you fear. Were she able to, the bush would have been gone before we were born.

[ajturbo]

my dog is ALWAYS unrestrained.......

AND he has caught 2 possums.... while out training!!!.....(once there was this cat.........wooops, but that's another story)

[doc]

I am fast tiring of populist local government politicians rolling over and succumbing to emotive claptrap rather than rationality backed by sound science.

It looks as though the Westland District Council is about to join the ranks of the nut job Coromandel and Taupo District Councils in declaring their region 1080 free. By doing so, they will open the floodgates to a massive biodiversity, ecological and economic disaster.

I think its a case of those who live in the regions you mention having a say. Isn't this what MMP is all about ?

The last Sth Island KB do was at a abandoned Westcoast sawmill. One bloke I spoke to made sense , he had spent 20 years trapping and had done extensive work with DOC and felt the scientists were starting to feel that 1080 wasn't killing as many possum as they thought. He mentioned that the 1080 thing was loosing its support in central government because of it. A few trappers not many could sort the TB problem out quite easily.

[Ronin]

Somewhat alarmist,perhaps?

After all, the possum was introduced in 1837 , 1080 not until 1954. Blossom the possum had 117 years to destroy the West Coast untrammelled. The fact that the Coast and its bush survived as a natural wilderness is a fairly good reason to suppose that Blossom is unlikely to wreak the havoc you fear. Were she able to, the bush would have been gone before we were born.

Not alarmist at all. There is a vast difference between surviving and flourishing.

[slowpoke]

Somewhat alarmist,perhaps?

After all, the possum was introduced in 1837 , 1080 not until 1954. Blossom the possum had 117 years to destroy the West Coast untrammelled. The fact that the Coast and its bush survived as a natural wilderness is a fairly good reason to suppose that Blossom is unlikely to wreak the havoc you fear. Were she able to, the bush would have been gone before we were born.


Not alarmist at all. There is a vast difference between surviving and flourishing.

C'mon man, while it may have been damaged it hardly met the definition of "decimated" or "dying" as was previously posted.

Emotive/alarmist speech does neither side any favours as it's too easy to refute and stifles discussion. It's all too easy to read one small snippet and arrive at a conclusion before all the facts are known. I'm happy to admitI know feck all about the issue but I'm interetsed in hearing more, hence I'll sit back and entertain arguments that seem sound and reasoned.....and ignore the hyperbole ridden exaggerations.

[kave]

C'mon man, while it may have been damaged it hardly met the definition of "decimated" or "dying" as was previously posted.

Emotive/alarmist speech does neither side any favours as it's too easy to refute and stifles discussion. It's all too easy to read one small snippet and arrive at a conclusion before all the facts are known. I'm happy to admitI know feck all about the issue but I'm interetsed in hearing more, hence I'll sit back and entertain arguments that seem sound and reasoned.....and ignore the hyperbole ridden exaggerations.

The decrease in birdlife in areas that are possum infested is one of the more shockingly obvious differences. Try going into an area of bush where possums have been eradicated, the birdsong is deafening. Then when you head back into the bush areas packed full of possums and it is the silence which is overwhelming. People often dont realise how badly affected by possums the bush is, because they haven't been anywhere possum free to compare it to.

[ynot slow]

Have mixed views on 1080,sure is best way to maybe erradicate pests in hard to reach areas.The old days of trapping and shooting for skins are gone,along with government culling(pest destruction dept).Have relatives who have farmed around the Egmont National park boundary,they'd often shoot and trap on their property,but also had baits landing on their land,they were told when the drops were happening so shifted stock etc,no problems.

Have noticed the birdlife return to the park since 1080 dropped when staying at lower level huts on Mt Egmont,and vegetation return,so yes the drop worked,but is it the best way I'm undecided.

[T.W.R]

It's always entertaining with the anti-1080 nutters quoting the weight in tonnes of how much 1080 will be dropped when the reality is that in each bait dropped there's only 0.15% of total bait weight that is actually 1080.

[Scottie]

I agree with Hitcher 1080 is the best tool to protrect our biodiversity - extinction is FOREVER

[Ronin]

C'mon man, while it may have been damaged it hardly met the definition of "decimated" or "dying" as was previously posted.

Emotive/alarmist speech does neither side any favours as it's too easy to refute and stifles discussion. It's all too easy to read one small snippet and arrive at a conclusion before all the facts are known. I'm happy to admitI know feck all about the issue but I'm interetsed in hearing more, hence I'll sit back and entertain arguments that seem sound and reasoned.....and ignore the hyperbole ridden exaggerations.

Fair comment but here are some areas which have been very badly affected. I'm not a great fan of 1080 but given our terrain and the pest being targetted I feel that trying to control using culling just will not be effective enough. With targetted disease vectors still away off (and of unproven value) then we have to do something.

[Ronin]

It's always entertaining with the anti-1080 nutters quoting the weight in tonnes of how much 1080 will be dropped when the reality is that in each bait dropped there's only 0.15% of total bait weight that is actually 1080.

Didn't know that. Interesting.

[rainman]

The fact that useful things can be made from possum by-products is a red herring, said he typing this whilst wearing his merino-possum jersey, and should not be taken seriously as any benefits are significantly outweighed by the costs.

Surely only true if you don't count the environmental costs of possum destruction?


I think its a case of those who live in the regions you mention having a say. Isn't this what MMP is all about ?

Um, no.


A few trappers not many could sort the TB problem out quite easily.

Is it a case of few good trappers/shooters rather than lots of less perfect ones? Just we have this big unemployment issue at the moment, and on my own I could probably raise 4 or 5 guys who could competently be trained to to shoot possums, rather than be out of work...

[Gone Burger]

I am in two minds about councils using 1080. I live in Upper Hutt City and our council use 1080 happily and frequently. I also live in a rural area surrounded by native bush and farm land. The 1080 operations that they have done out our way have been incredibly successful and the possum population is quickly being controlled more as the years go on. They are about to start their first operation out here for the year. So the farmers as (generally) happy, and the results are very good for the wildlife and native bush.

However, I am also a dog owner which is where my other opinion about it comes into play. They have in the past done aerial drops of the pallets, on neighboring council land, and also private farms and properties that owners have given permission for. Last year the park only minutes up the road from me was covered in the stuff. So sure, don't take the dogs there. But them the river behind our house became too dangerous for the dogs, and we were then told that we couldn't walk them on our road at all. We could see the pallets everywhere. And there have been quite a few deaths of dogs in upper hutt parks and river beds as pallets and carcases have been washed down that was with heavy rains.

So, for 6 months of the year, my dogs are locked in my property, with very little chance to get out in our beautiful surrounding area. There is also a huge concern with the next aerial drop that our own property might be affected. They have been known for "dropping"outside of their proposed areas, and it was only last year I believe that the Kaitoke water catchment plant got contaminated by 1080 and was unsafe to use for over 6 months. I would have to check my facts on that, but it was something along those lines.

Still in two minds - I know it works brilliantly for controlling the possum populations and that is just something that we HAVE to continue to try and control, but as a dog owner, it sucks! I guess there are always pros and cons to most situations.

[T.W.R]

Truth of the matter is that district councils haven't got the authority to stop the likes of 1080 drops, regional councils have the authority

[JimO]

Speaking of drunk inbred hillbilly's - my firearms licence arrived last week - sweeeet!


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/jim157/2-1.jpg

[Mully]

Is there a reason that we can't use bait stations for 1080 instead of just dropping it? Surely hiring some "Rangers", gettng them a Hilux and sending them out to refill bait stations and pick up any dead ones (with the fur going to garment makers) would solve most of the the debate?

Agreed that some terrain is challenging, but I imagine some people (not me, like fuck me) would enjoy being paid to tramp into these places to fill bait stations.

Actually, have we had a beneficiary bashing thread lately? Can we hire some lazy fucking benes to go out and do it?

[spacemonkey]

Comes back to cost Mully, the amount of bait the average tramping type could carry 30-40km OFF THE TRAIL and how long it would take in hours even at minimum wage would come nowhere near the bang for your tax buck that aerial 1080 drops get.
Possum population is estimated to be around 70 million 38% of which have TB and are spread over some 10,000,000. hectares, to make a dent in those numbers would pretty much impossible using hunting and trapping..... Mind you I'm sure ammunition manufacturers would be ever so pleased if we did try to hunt them all.

Katiepie That's news to me and I'd be skeptical due to the fact that 1080 breaks down in water. To get a positive test for 1080 they have to take the water sample within a few days (hours in the case of running water) so 6 months?
I can see a hysterical over reacting uninformed council doing that, but there would be no scientific basis for it.

[Winston001]

I've been puzzled about why 1080 is mostly used in NZ and very little in other countries, so did a bit of research. The reason very simply is that NZ is virtually unique in the world for having no native mammals (ok, there is a bat). The other place with no mammals and which is a world heritage site is the Galapagos Islands. And yes, they use 1080 there among Darwins Finches and other rare birds. It wouldn't be used if it posed a threat.

So it is an appropriate and effective poison for this country. The Australian possum does serious damage to our bush, much of it in the top layers which is unseen. Their effect is to kill fresh young foliage and flowers which should seed and provide food for birds. The damage is best seen from a helicopter.

As for bio-controls such as an engineered bacteria or virus, certainly science can create one. Just recently a sterility hormone for possums was announced.

There are three problems:

1. Delivery vector. Bacteria and viruses can be spread by the wind but the percentage is poor. Most die quickly from sunlight. So scientists have to find a delivery method for getting the bio-creature from possum to possum. Usually a parasite such as a small flea which lives with the animal is chosen but its got to tolerate the microbe and that's a problem. Finding the right insect isn't easy.

2. Ecological risk - no-one wants to find out too late that the microbe just loves tuis so the testing period before release is critical.

3. Australia....our big brash cousin. Possums are protected over there. If NZ engineers a microbe then we better have a deadly toxin to kill it, ready at the same time. Otherwise Oz will ban all imports from NZ and spray all our flights not to mention the nasty political stuff which would happen. They don't need us and certainly wouldn't want our bio-terror.

[Coldrider]

I think that a lot of the problem is 'country' decisions are being made by 'town' people who have little to no understanding, and just think that 1080 is not what they would want outside their home.

A educated person who understands the problems would not come to the same conclusion.
I have to totally agree here (just this once)

[Tank]

I have to totally agree here (just this once)

fuck - you ok man??????

[Gone Burger]

Katiepie That's news to me and I'd be skeptical due to the fact that 1080 breaks down in water. To get a positive test for 1080 they have to take the water sample within a few days (hours in the case of running water) so 6 months?
I can see a hysterical over reacting uninformed council doing that, but there would be no scientific basis for it.

I stand corrected, thank you. I thought it was longer at the time but it seems it was only closed for a couple of months. I remember reading the artical in the local paper, and how low the level of the twin lakes was getting as a result...


"Upper Hutt: 1080 drop closes Water Supply

Wellington Regional Council has stopped taking water from a catchment area north of Upper Hutt because of a 1080 poison drop.
Helicopters dropped the baits on Friday in parts of the Kaitoke Regional Park and the Akatarawa saddle area to control possums.
Half the water supply for the Wellington urban area comes from the Hutt Water Collection Area, drawn at the Kaitoke weir.
Water for Upper Hutt, Lower Hutt, Wellington and Porirua cities is now being drawn from the water storage lakes at Kaitoke.
Taking water from the Hutt water collection area will resume when the Medical Officer of Health gives the all clear."

Still, I will continue to have my 2 views on this one... Might do some more reserch on it myself. Always good to know the facts huh before blabbering on about a topic being full of hot air :)

[Coldrider]

fuck - you ok man??????No, but the thought of a crimplene suit from welly convincing to coaster army suplus camouflage wearers about poisioning their own back yard doesn't quite cut it, not down at Revys anyway.

[Paul in NZ]

Somewhat alarmist,perhaps?

After all, the possum was introduced in 1837 , 1080 not until 1954. Blossom the possum had 117 years to destroy the West Coast untrammelled. The fact that the Coast and its bush survived as a natural wilderness is a fairly good reason to suppose that Blossom is unlikely to wreak the havoc you fear. Were she able to, the bush would have been gone before we were born.

I beg to disagree..

As a younger man I spent a lot of time in the south island bush, walking, relaxing and killing things. Possums are vile things that HAVE already decimated the bush and wildlife (birds). It can take a long time for the whole forest to die as the possums start on the trees they like first. Whole areas are devoid of Rata etc now. I spent a week with a possum trapper in the wildest wild place (learnt to like eating em) and even he admitted that he was just a drop in the bucket.

I'm sorry - I'm with Hitcher. Show me a viable alternative to 1080.... There just isnt any.

[rwh]

I'm one of those who doesn't like the idea of 1080, but sees it's probably the best option we have for mass destruction.

A couple of other things spring to mind, though. I'm not a hunter, but I'm guessing that if you were to shoot a possum, the bullet would probably go straight through, right? So a campaign of shooting them would result in a lot of lead left lying around in the bush, which can't be particularly good either. I was wondering whether taking up archery would be an alternative - arrows would be easier to recover and hopefully re-use.

Then the other thought is that possums are nocturnal, which makes hunting them difficult due to the darkness, with more risk of shooting other hunters. But they must sleep in the daytime. Anyone know where? Are they sleeping somewhere convenient for people to go and massacre them in their beds? Not very sporting, but then neither is 1080 ...

Richard

[spacemonkey]

Crossbow would be more effective than a normal bow as far as a hit rate goes. :yes:
As far as possums at night goes, their eyes reflect like road markers when you hit them with the spotlight and they tend to freeze staring at the beam for maybe 10 seconds or so, makes them pretty easy targets.

[Paul in NZ]

No and no... Arrows go right through - bolts do to and since you shoot em at night you never find the the bloody things. Which gets very expensive. Tying a string onto em dont work neither....

Trapping is miles easier and a much more effective method. Shooting em requires a light etc and you need to walk into places that a goat would have trouble reaching. I think you would be amazed the country that holds these things. Maybe 3 days walk?

Back in the day - people had mobile huts flown in by chopper with all the kit and it can be done but oh the cost now....

[Pixie]

Stupid hippies deserve everything they wish for and the consequences

[Pixie]

I think its a case of those who live in the regions you mention having a say. Isn't this what MMP is all about ?


Local body elections are FPP with a few exceptions

[Pixie]

Somewhat alarmist,perhaps?

After all, the possum was introduced in 1837 , 1080 not until 1954. Blossom the possum had 117 years to destroy the West Coast untrammelled. The fact that the Coast and its bush survived as a natural wilderness is a fairly good reason to suppose that Blossom is unlikely to wreak the havoc you fear. Were she able to, the bush would have been gone before we were born.

And the first 2 rabbits in the country didn't obliterate entire sheep stations

[Pixie]

I stand corrected, thank you. I thought it was longer at the time but it seems it was only closed for a couple of months. I remember reading the artical in the local paper, and how low the level of the twin lakes was getting as a result...


"Upper Hutt: 1080 drop closes Water Supply

Wellington Regional Council has stopped taking water from a catchment area north of Upper Hutt because of a 1080 poison drop.
Helicopters dropped the baits on Friday in parts of the Kaitoke Regional Park and the Akatarawa saddle area to control possums.
Half the water supply for the Wellington urban area comes from the Hutt Water Collection Area, drawn at the Kaitoke weir.
Water for Upper Hutt, Lower Hutt, Wellington and Porirua cities is now being drawn from the water storage lakes at Kaitoke.
Taking water from the Hutt water collection area will resume when the Medical Officer of Health gives the all clear."

Still, I will continue to have my 2 views on this one... Might do some more reserch on it myself. Always good to know the facts huh before blabbering on about a topic being full of hot air :)

Choose your doggies freedom - they probably won't even miss the bush

[Pussy]

It really does strike me that LOTS of people just don't appreciate the huge problem that possums are in NZ

[Kickaha]

It really does strike me that LOTS of people just don't appreciate the huge problem that possums are in NZ

They have been a problem pretty much since they were introduced (why were they introduced?), they used to be a good source of pocket money though, used to do a trapline daily after school and clear them in the morning

[Paul in NZ]

They have been a problem pretty much since they were introduced (why were they introduced?), they used to be a good source of pocket money though, used to do a trapline daily after school and clear them in the morning

While thats great stuff (did the same sort of thing) - its a bid of a walk say to the upper Whitcombe valley after school....

[SPman]

I am in two minds about councils using 1080. I live in Upper Hutt City and our council use 1080 happily and frequently. I also live in a rural area surrounded by native bush and farm land. The 1080 operations that they have done out our way have been incredibly successful and the possum population is quickly being controlled more as the years go on. They are about to start their first operation out here for the year. So the farmers as (generally) happy, and the results are very good for the wildlife and native bush.

However, I am also a dog owner which is where my other opinion about it comes into play. They have in the past done aerial drops of the pallets, on neighboring council land, and also private farms and properties that owners have given permission for. Last year the park only minutes up the road from me was covered in the stuff. So sure, don't take the dogs there. But them the river behind our house became too dangerous for the dogs, and we were then told that we couldn't walk them on our road at all. We could see the pallets everywhere. And there have been quite a few deaths of dogs in upper hutt parks and river beds as pallets and carcases have been washed down that was with heavy rains.

So, for 6 months of the year, my dogs are locked in my property, with very little chance to get out in our beautiful surrounding area. There is also a huge concern with the next aerial drop that our own property might be affected. They have been known for "dropping"outside of their proposed areas, and it was only last year I believe that the Kaitoke water catchment plant got contaminated by 1080 and was unsafe to use for over 6 months. I would have to check my facts on that, but it was something along those lines.

Still in two minds - I know it works brilliantly for controlling the possum populations and that is just something that we HAVE to continue to try and control, but as a dog owner, it sucks! I guess there are always pros and cons to most situations.
What! They're dropping pallets now!
Now that IS dangerous!

[Swoop]

I suppose if the government did encourage people to shoot possums,
Councils used to offer a bounty, with payment made in ammunition. A good plan that would be far too unworkable nowadays.

Local body elections are FPP with a few exceptions
Thought they were STV? My local one is.

[Hitcher]

Thought they were STV? My local one is.

There are exceptions. Councils can determine the basis of voting that is used for themselves. Many are STV, some are still FPP. That confusion leads to a lot of invalid votes in the FPP ballots from people who assume that of the organisations on their voting papers are using STV. Read the instructions carefully at each step or you may disenfranchise yourself.