2 stroke vs 4 stroke maintenance

[motor_mayhem]

I am a bit down about my RMZ at the moment as I have just bought a top end rebuild kit and while installing it discovered I also need new intake valves. By the time all that's completed I will be down about $800 and that's when I have done most of the labour myself, had some help from friends in the know but has all been free so far thankfully.

I am vaguely wondering if I would have avoided this with a 2 stroke. Can someone give me some objective comparison between 2 stroke and 4 stroke?

[Stylo]

I am a bit down about my RMZ at the moment as I have just bought a top end rebuild kit and while installing it discovered I also need new intake valves. By the time all that's completed I will be down about $800 and that's when I have done most of the labour myself, had some help from friends in the know but has all been free so far thankfully.

I am vaguely wondering if I would have avoided this with a 2 stroke. Can someone give me some objective comparison between 2 stroke and 4 stroke?

The joys of owning a 4stroke ...go to twostrokemotocross.com , there's an interesting article on the 2t vs 4t maintenance comparison ....

[Crasherfromwayback]

Make sure you put some new valve springs in while you're there mate. VERY important!

[motor_mayhem]

Can someone give me some objective comparison between 2 stroke and 4 stroke?

From a brief browse of twostrokemotocross.com I very much doubt any of their articles are completely objective.

[bogan]

I am a bit down about my RMZ at the moment as I have just bought a top end rebuild kit and while installing it discovered I also need new intake valves. By the time all that's completed I will be down about $800 and that's when I have done most of the labour myself, had some help from friends in the know but has all been free so far thankfully.

I am vaguely wondering if I would have avoided this with a 2 stroke.

yup, two stroked don't even have intake valves :lol:


Can someone give me some objective comparison between 2 stroke and 4 stroke?

imo, two strokes are the safer bet, if something goes wrong it's likely to be much cheaper than for four strokes, as far as routine maintenance goes, rebuilds a lot more often on 2T, but also a lot cheaper. I also think with 2T, you're not hit with unexpected costs as much, so while you probably pay out the same amount, cos you expect to it easier to pay. I've never had a 4T mx bike btw, so just going from what others have said. Also, how long have you had yours, and how much spent, how much riding etc?

With the huge difference in power deliver between 2T and 4T, I reckon just pick the one you like riding the most, and expect to pay heaps :D

[vazza]

Yes buy a 2stroke. Far less maintenance/cost.

Preferably buy a 2T enduro bike.. You dont have to do anything to them for 100hours if your lucky! :D

[yokel]

[QUOTE=

I am vaguely wondering if I would have avoided this with a 2 stroke. Can someone give me some objective comparison between 2 stroke and 4 stroke?[/QUOTE]

Yip, my YZ 125 top end = about $110-$150 for a piston kit + 30 mins work and all done (reused the gaskets cos im a tight ar$e)

To me the use of a high "tech" and strung F1 type 4 stroke engine to go hooning around a paddock and making ruts up the side of hills just doesnt make sense??

[Shane06]

dealers want you to buy 4 strokes,they are more expensive and they do well off the parts :) i had a crf450 for a while but sold it to get back to 2 strokes, when ever i rode i was worried it would shit itself leaving me with a bill i couldn afford

[barty5]

well ive did 100 hrs on my 450 before swapping out the piston i did do the rings at round 70hrs all the valves etc etc are still well within the specs and was only 250 for the piston kit and yes i do use and have trade account but not for a genuine piston i put back into it.
Rupes 250 has done round 170hrs and its all still sweet and with in spec.

[barty5]

hows many hrs has it done ???

[Rupe]

well ive did 100 hrs on my 450 before swapping out the piston i did do the rings at round 70hrs all the valves etc etc are still well within the specs and was only 250 for the piston kit and yes i do use and have trade account but not for a genuine piston i put back into it.
Rupes 250 has done round 170hrs and its all still sweet and with in spec.

Nah it's on 195hrs, the valves are all still in spec and haven't moved in 100hrs, the cylinder still has the hone marks etc. Everything is mint inside.

the late model 4strokes don't cost much to run, unless you are slack with your preventative maintenace.

Whats your maintenace schedule on the RMZ?

[oldskool]

food for thought.

4T=
more moving parts
much higher rpm
pressurised lubrication- dirt and heat = premature wear.
more wear on parts as needs 4 strokes as opposed to 2

"Four-stroke engines have all the moving parts (piston, bearings, rods, crank, etc.) that a two-stroke does, but adds valves, camshafts, springs, timing chains, and oil pumps all operating at hummingbird speeds." http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/03/two-stroke-superiority-internal-combustion-engines-compared/

$50 Reed Valve compared to $800 cam and valve job

[flyingcr250]

Yes buy a 2stroke. Far less maintenance/cost.

Preferably buy a 2T enduro bike.. You dont have to do anything to them for 100hours if your lucky! :D

i know someone whos selling a good enduro 2T bike lol

[B0000M]

another for the 2 stroke is cheaper vote.

example - a mate just did a full top end on his crf - new valves, springs, piston, rings, etc etc etc, cost $750~ in parts alone.
for my 2 stroke its $230 for a full top end. though does need doing more often.

another guy just did a top end, using new valves as well, then the valves failed.... and now its even more fucked and even more costly-

this vs $50 worth of reeds, which dont destroy pistons and cylinders - ill take the reeds any day.


still comes down to rider preference though. some people just cant ride (handle) a 2 stroke, others find 4 strokes boring.

[oldskool]

some people just cant ride (handle) a 2 stroke, others find 4 strokes boring.

Heh heh and that's putting it nicely!

[oldguy]

My 2c if you are a MXer and race every weekend, for sure your bike is going to need a rebuild, thats the nature of the beast, be it 2t or 4t.
But for most here, who mostly trail ride or only ride certain events you should get a good run out of your bike.
If you are for ever doing major maintenance, i would look at what I am doing or not doing.
If you do your regular oil and filter, change/clean and any other periodic factory recomended check, you should get a good run out of your 4T thumper.

Regular checks and maintenance, the key to saving money.

[Rupe]

another for the 2 stroke is cheaper vote.

example - a mate just did a full top end on his crf - new valves, springs, piston, rings, etc etc etc, cost $750~ in parts alone.
for my 2 stroke its $230 for a full top end. though does need doing more often.

another guy just did a top end, using new valves as well, then the valves failed.... and now its even more fucked and even more costly-

this vs $50 worth of reeds, which dont destroy pistons and cylinders - ill take the reeds any day.


still comes down to rider preference though. some people just cant ride (handle) a 2 stroke, others find 4 strokes boring.

Yeah, but I went through more expansion chambers than valves, plus the fuel cost is almost half on a 4stroke so don't think theres much in it.

If you blow them up a 2 stroke is cheaper to fix, but like I said, with the correct maintenace this shouldn't happen to either 4 or 2. Maybe the guy needs to look at this more as it might not be the bikes fault. The amount of broken bikes i've looked at "that were running mint before" but look like half of woodhill is in the airbox is untrue.

[Rupe]

My 2c if you are a MXer and race every weekend, for sure your bike is going to need a rebuild, thats the nature of the beast, be it 2t or 4t.
But for most here, who mostly trail ride or only ride certain events you should get a good run out of your bike.
If you are for ever doing major maintenance, i would look at what I am doing or not doing.
If you do your regular oil and filter, change/clean and any other periodic factory recomended check, you should get a good run out of your 4T thumper.

Regular checks and maintenance, the key to saving money.

yep, pretty much

[yokel]

Any more than 2 strokes is a wank :laugh:

[motor_mayhem]

Nah it's on 195hrs, the valves are all still in spec and haven't moved in 100hrs, the cylinder still has the hone marks etc. Everything is mint inside.

the late model 4strokes don't cost much to run, unless you are slack with your preventative maintenace.

Whats your maintenace schedule on the RMZ?

I have an hour meter so change the oil every 6 hours and the oil filter every 12, clean the air filter and oil using no toil every 6 hours as well.


hows many hrs has it done ???

85 sin the last rebuild and that was a top and bottom end.


i know someone whos selling a good enduro 2T bike lol

If it's a KTM -> read bike that costs 100% more and would be lucky to be 5% better, then I am not interested.


another for the 2 stroke is cheaper vote.

example - a mate just did a full top end on his crf - new valves, springs, piston, rings, etc etc etc, cost $750~ in parts alone.
for my 2 stroke its $230 for a full top end. though does need doing more often.

another guy just did a top end, using new valves as well, then the valves failed.... and now its even more fucked and even more costly-

this vs $50 worth of reeds, which dont destroy pistons and cylinders - ill take the reeds any day.

Yeah that is what would make me consider it.



still comes down to rider preference though. some people just cant ride (handle) a 2 stroke, others find 4 strokes boring.

I think if you find fours boring, you're probably not working them hard enough.


Any more than 2 strokes is a wank :laugh:

And who doesn't enjoy a good w@nk? :laugh:

[oldskool]

Yeah, but I went through more expansion chambers than valves, plus the fuel cost is almost half on a 4stroke so don't think theres much in it.


What the heck were you doin to your expansion chamber? Heres how to clean it with an oxy torch.
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2T Maintenance? wet and forget is my motto. 200+ hours before I crack open the barrel on the enduro 300. Gear Oil change? Maybe I'll give it a X'mas prezzie if I feel the clutch dragging.
Regular Air Filter cleaning with degreasing detergent and she'll be right.
Like a previous post, I got rid of my 4T KTM very quickly, coz everytime I started it, all I would hear was the whirr of the chain and the tappety tap of the lifters and all I could think about was $$$$$$$ if it grenaded. No amount of 10hr oil change regime would give me peace of mind over that.

[Rupe]

I have an hour meter so change the oil every 6 hours and the oil filter every 12, clean the air filter and oil using no toil every 6 hours as well.



Air filter should be after every single ride. If you suck shit through the valves don't last too long, cheaper to just clean the filter.

[Rupe]

[QUOTE=oldskool;1129765581]
2T Maintenance? wet and forget is my motto. 200+ hours before I crack open the barrel on the enduro 300. Gear Oil change? Maybe I'll give it a X'mas prezzie if I feel the clutch dragging.
Regular Air Filter cleaning with degreasing detergent and she'll be right.
QUOTE]

Good luck with that!!!!

[Reckless]

Daily Maintenance should be similar on both depending on your handbook specs but I did hear oil changes on 4t's are more often? My 200exc is every 20hrs I do it between 10 and 15 hrs which is quite a few rides.
But clean bike, air filter and Airbox, oill fork tubes and chain after every ride even if the hour meter only shows 2 hrs riding. Brakes, tyres, forks, shocks should be similar between the 4t and 2t as well. I agree with Rupe clean filter every ride, very important on any bike!!!

My smokers get stripped every 50 hours usually its a piston kit then next 50 only rings depending on how it measures up (high revving 125's need more). Now that I'm on an exc I could shift that out to 100 hrs but I probably won't be able to help myself from looking in there, somewhere between 50 and 100 hrs. Bearing in mind Danger got 400 hours out of his 200exc and he is a lot quicker than me and runs much finer tuning. So the production 2T enduro bike should be much cheaper in the long haul to maintain!

Replacing a piston and rings is very similar between the two in time and money, which is being constantly put forward as a case for maintenance being similar?? But the way I see it this is simply not the case, sooner or later you will need to do valves, valve springs, timing chain, chain tensioner valve reseat/grind and all that goes with it. Whether that be at 50 hours or 250 hours??

If you can afford to buy a new bike put 100 or 150 hrs on it then flick it off then all well and good! But a lot of people are finding that they can only afford to buy this bike, instead of a new one, and they are the ones getting caught with the 2K top end refurbish that they cannot do themselves or get a mate to do. Because it is a 4T a shop has to do it. Sooner or later somewhere along the ownwership chain this will happen, so no one can convince me a 4T is comparable over its life to a 2T in regards to maintenance, and as per a previous comment thats why the shops like selling them. Mind you I do hear (true or not??) that Ktm (and to a large extent because they have stuck to their 2smokers) are now the highest selling dirt bike worldwide, with the 300exc being the bike of choice. I predicted that the japs would regret their decision to trash 2T's and go after the big bucks, the market is deciding.

Now touching quickly on ride-ability there is no doubt in my mind the 4T delivers its power better for overall speed than the 2T. I'd probably climb those hills better at the sandpit on a 4T and even make it up more than I do now. If I was racing MX its a 4T for sure they are simply faster because of their power delivery. But for me there's much more fun in dancing 2T over the whoop's at speed and feeling the sting of the power even if it means I don't make it up the odd sandhill, which is a rider failure not the bikes. With the power valve adjustment and tuning I have just changed my bike from a sedate kdx type bike to a much more smack you in the arse type bike its a completely different bike from say when Boom or A&R rode it last. I can't see you doing this so easily to a 4T either, they don't have a power valve and if you tune them rich they don't lug around like a 2t they simply don't go. My 2hundy will lug a bit like a 4t I just keep forgetting to not twist the bloody throttle. So its 2smokers for me they are simply more fun to play with, on and maintain.
Just wait till direct injection (or similar) hits, its looking like same power delivery and power out of a 250 2T as a 450 4T delivers. Mark my words when they stop 2smokers from smoking you will all be riding them, there is simply no way do deny the efficiency and power output of the engine.
Everyone knows I'm a 2smoke man but have tried to keep the above as balanced as I can. Just my 2c??

[barty5]

you didnt add in power vallves for 2T which can fail drop etc etc and can cause a real bad mess extra movin part for a 2T

[barty5]

why is it people still seam to think that doing a overhaul on a 4T is something a shop has to do really it not that hard i built my 1st XR200 20 odd years ago from a manual having never pulled a bike apart before 2T or a 4T and the dang thing ran mint had it for a good 9 month before i sold it of after building it. Hell it like dot to dot just line up the marks and your done real easy.

[Reckless]

you didnt add in power vallves for 2T which can fail drop etc etc and can cause a real bad mess extra movin part for a 2T

I've Never heard of a power valve failing to the point it jambs a piston in all my years of karting and bikes with regular maintence. From what I can remember from most of the kart engines I've had apart the shape of it pretty much prevents this and its very rare although you must know of a case to raise the point I suppose.
If we are going to start scaremongering I bet there is a shit load more 4T's ( road and trail) that smash up valves and pistons because of timing chain tensioner, timing chain and valve failiers. But I will admit I'm guessing there.

Look we can all start quoting extreme cases?? and go tit for tat or case vs case?? My post was (my opinion only) on the overall cost of running a 2T vs a 4T. The thread was "2 stroke vs 4 stroke maintenance". Look you guys on 4T's good on ya!! If I was young enough to race MX I'd be on one too ( i've never owned anything but a 4T road bike!) and I have a CRF150 now! But I stand by my opinion a 2T is simply cheaper to own, for twice the power, for the same CC rating, over the life of the bike. Nuff said I don't want to turn this into a argument?

[barty5]

next time your in the shop ill show what a damaged power valve looks like that i pulled from a motor last year trashed the barrel and the piston

[B0000M]

hondas more recent power valves have very few moving parts to fail

[cheese]

next time your in the shop ill show what a damaged power valve looks like that i pulled from a motor last year trashed the barrel and the piston

That would have to be a pretty rare case I'd say. More likely to have a ring break on a 2 stroke than that happen.

[bogan]

That would have to be a pretty rare case I'd say. More likely to have a ring break on a 2 stroke than that happen.

yeh, by design powervalves are non-interference so even if they fail, they should not be expensive to fix, cept those bloody rotary ones where all the stems snap off of them :bash: I recently noticed the bike I bought a year ago had poorly adjusted valves, they were open at low revs, then tried to go even more open at high revs (fandangle spring arrangement meant they did't poke holes in side of engine cos of this) I though she was pretty quick before too! fucking rocket ship now :D

[KevinD]

Daily Maintenance should be similar on both depending on your handbook specs but I did hear oil changes on 4t's are more often? My 200exc is every 20hrs I do it between 10 and 15 hrs which is quite a few rides.
But clean bike, air filter and Airbox, oill fork tubes and chain after every ride even if the hour meter only shows 2 hrs riding. Brakes, tyres, forks, shocks should be similar between the 4t and 2t as well. I agree with Rupe clean filter every ride, very important on any bike!!!

My smokers get stripped every 50 hours usually its a piston kit then next 50 only rings depending on how it measures up (high revving 125's need more). Now that I'm on an exc I could shift that out to 100 hrs but I probably won't be able to help myself from looking in there, somewhere between 50 and 100 hrs. Bearing in mind Danger got 400 hours out of his 200exc and he is a lot quicker than me and runs much finer tuning. So the production 2T enduro bike should be much cheaper in the long haul to maintain!

Replacing a piston and rings is very similar between the two in time and money, which is being constantly put forward as a case for maintenance being similar?? But the way I see it this is simply not the case, sooner or later you will need to do valves, valve springs, timing chain, chain tensioner valve reseat/grind and all that goes with it. Whether that be at 50 hours or 250 hours??

If you can afford to buy a new bike put 100 or 150 hrs on it then flick it off then all well and good! But a lot of people are finding that they can only afford to buy this bike, instead of a new one, and they are the ones getting caught with the 2K top end refurbish that they cannot do themselves or get a mate to do. Because it is a 4T a shop has to do it. Sooner or later somewhere along the ownwership chain this will happen, so no one can convince me a 4T is comparable over its life to a 2T in regards to maintenance, and as per a previous comment thats why the shops like selling them. Mind you I do hear (true or not??) that Ktm (and to a large extent because they have stuck to their 2smokers) are now the highest selling dirt bike worldwide, with the 300exc being the bike of choice. I predicted that the japs would regret their decision to trash 2T's and go after the big bucks, the market is deciding.

Now touching quickly on ride-ability there is no doubt in my mind the 4T delivers its power better for overall speed than the 2T. I'd probably climb those hills better at the sandpit on a 4T and even make it up more than I do now. If I was racing MX its a 4T for sure they are simply faster because of their power delivery. But for me there's much more fun in dancing 2T over the whoop's at speed and feeling the sting of the power even if it means I don't make it up the odd sandhill, which is a rider failure not the bikes. With the power valve adjustment and tuning I have just changed my bike from a sedate kdx type bike to a much more smack you in the arse type bike its a completely different bike from say when Boom or A&R rode it last. I can't see you doing this so easily to a 4T either, they don't have a power valve and if you tune them rich they don't lug around like a 2t they simply don't go. My 2hundy will lug a bit like a 4t I just keep forgetting to not twist the bloody throttle. So its 2smokers for me they are simply more fun to play with, on and maintain.
Just wait till direct injection (or similar) hits, its looking like same power delivery and power out of a 250 2T as a 450 4T delivers. Mark my words when they stop 2smokers from smoking you will all be riding them, there is simply no way do deny the efficiency and power output of the engine.
Everyone knows I'm a 2smoke man but have tried to keep the above as balanced as I can. Just my 2c??

I still cannot see why non-competition dirt bikes went to water cooling and all the extra crap that goes with that. Aircooled 2 strokes (& 4 strokes) produce more than enough power for non-competition use. I would have a air cooled 2 stroke like shot if they ever started making them again. I'd even humble myself for a 750cc V4 similar to an Yamaha RZ500, they were great, just short of 150Mph in 1984 - stand by brothers here I come, is the greatest feeling when you screw the arse off a big two stroke road bike, and the sound. Personally I preferred the Kawasaki H2 750 rough as guts, but so much fun......... I'm off to take my pills :) However back to the point in hand, I support the view the simpler the better in the bush. When was the last time you saw a 2 stroke drop a valve, or break a cam chain, which means two strokes win in my view.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm off to take my pills :) However back to the point in hand, I support the view the simpler the better in the bush. When was the last time you saw a 2 stroke drop a valve, or break a cam chain, which means two strokes win in my view.

Sounds like you need to get yourself a lovely old air cooled 2 stroke vmx bike!235641

[oldguy]

Funny thing about 2 stroke riders, is most of the time they are chasing the guy on the 4stroke :woohoo: unless its me:facepalm:
you would have thought KTM would of gone the 2 stroke way, and made a bike to race in the AMA, instead of making a 350f or have 2strokes been ruled out in the AMA supercross?

[scott411]

they have not been ruled out, they just have to be 250cc, and you can not get them to beat 250F's on slick dry tracks like the sx's are

[Crasherfromwayback]

they have not been ruled out, they just have to be 250cc, and you can not get them to beat 250F's on slick dry tracks like the sx's are

Hell yeah. Now that they've got 4 strokes light enough...they just hook up so much better eh! I've had the same old argument here with a certain KX500 rider (can't remember his name...but he's got a Busa as well), that a modern 450 is faster than his KX500. His argument is KX500 = 102Kg's and 64hp. RMZ = 112?kgs and approx 56hp?. But he no listen about drive out of corners = speed down straight.

[Jay GTI]

'tis true, my Kato makes about or if not a little less power than my old RM, but by fecksicles is it a faster bike to ride. The RM would just turn it's power into roost, the SX-F just hooks up and goes.

Then there's the lack of arm pump, considerably less vibration, far less aggressive power, ability to stay fresh and ride all day without fatigue, blah blah...

... although I do sometimes miss the 'holy shit' moments of pure 2-smoke snot...

[Crasherfromwayback]

... although I do sometimes miss the 'holy shit' moments of pure 2-smoke snot...

Yep. Don't get me wrong...I'm a huge 2 stroke fan (there's still nothing like the feeling of a strong one coming on song), but for dirt usage...4 strokes are faster and here to stay.

[meteor]

I just had a look at the spreadsheet I run for the maintenance/cost/hours of the bikes. My son's KX85 cost me $2.6K and to date (from Aug 08) has cost $2.4K in maintenance... full rebuild, top end twice, gaskets, suspension seals, tyres etc etc. Whereas my trusted old XR was bought for $3.8K in Jan 09 and has so far cost me $170. And $70 of that was for a petrol cap that I lost (don't ask!).

[Stylo]

hondas more recent power valves have very few moving parts to fail

No power valve in my CR500 but the KX500 has one , guess the difference is down to the paperwork and the math's . I have a 40 hour KX500 last model '04 and, being my 5th 500 it still puts a smile on my face in 5th gear at over 100kmh when it lifts the wheel when I roll it on ... , wooohooo !, traction permitting , of course..

It's the powerband that keep's me smiling , go the two strokes and guys, you ain't kicking ass unless you're mixing gas . My 5 cents ...

[B0000M]

I just had a look at the spreadsheet I run for the maintenance/cost/hours of the bikes. My son's KX85 cost me $2.6K and to date (from Aug 08) has cost $2.4K in maintenance... full rebuild, top end twice, gaskets, suspension seals, tyres etc etc. Whereas my trusted old XR was bought for $3.8K in Jan 09 and has so far cost me $170. And $70 of that was for a petrol cap that I lost (don't ask!).

an xr vs a kx isnt a fair comparison.

how about we compare a kx85 vs a CRF150R - both being a youth sized competition designed mx bike

kx will be a cheaper bike to own

[Reckless]

an xr vs a kx isnt a fair comparison.

how about we compare a kx85 vs a CRF150R - both being a youth sized competition designed mx bike

kx will be a cheaper bike to own

Agreed and I was also thinking that when the Xr finally needs doing from top to bottom (as its had nothing done) it's gonna cost quite a few a bucks in one big hit.

[Crasherfromwayback]

No power valve in my CR500 but the KX500 has one , guess the difference is down to the paperwork and the math's ..

Are the running costs similar for both ya 5 hundies?

[meteor]

... when the Xr finally needs doing from top to bottom (as its had nothing done) it's gonna cost quite a few a bucks in one big hit...

Probably true but my point was for the OP and even so I still reckon the XR would be less in the long run. But as Boooom says, apples with apples. Maybe a KDX v XR then? Haven't got the figures for that tho'

[Stylo]

Are the running costs similar for both ya 5 hundies?

Good question Crashman.....funny how the Honda costs a lot less to run , hmmmm

Maybe it's jetted a little lean ? :-)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Good question Crashman.....funny how the Honda costs a lot less to run , hmmmm

Maybe it's jetted a little lean ? :-)

I'm guessing it's faster than your KX too? I've done a lot of beach racing and road racing against Craig Wilkie. He was always CR mounted, and I was always on KX's.

His CR was always quite a bit quicker up top...with the power valved KX driving better out of corners. He beat me at the beach, but never on tar.

[Stylo]

I'm guessing it's faster than your KX too? I've done a lot of beach racing and road racing against Craig Wilkie. He was always CR mounted, and I was always on KX's.

His CR was always quite a bit quicker up top...with the power valved KX driving better out of corners. He beat me at the beach, but never on tar.


Can't say if the CR's the quicker bike 'cos it's still in the crate mate .

Nice to have a bit of both in the shed though mate, must admit ..I've always been a KX fan though the Honda's the prettier of the two '500 s...again my 5 cents

[Crasherfromwayback]

Can't say if the CR's the quicker bike 'cos it's still in the crate mate .

Nice to have a bit of both in the shed though mate, must admit ..I've always been a KX fan though the Honda's the prettier of the two '500 s...again my 5 cents

No. Even though I'm a KX fan...I'd agree with you that the CR is the better looker of the two. Keep it in the crate too mate. Be worth really good money one day. I keep my CR in my lounge!236009

[Stylo]

No. Even though I'm a KX fan...I'd agree with you that the CR is the better looker of the two. Keep it in the crate too mate. Be worth really good money one day. I keep my CR in my lounge!236009

Nice Bike Crasher ....awesome :yes: