It's official - there are some heinous drivers out there

[shrub]

From today's Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10649114

They could have asked any of us.

[Katman]

They could have asked any of us.

Yeah, cos we're all angels.

[shrub]

Yeah, cos we're all angels.

Hello Katman, I wondered how long you'd take. I agree, a lot of motorcyclists are pretty stupid and should get trainer wheels and speed limters fitted just like a lot of car drivers are bloody good at what they do, but I think if you took the average biker and the average citizen cage driver, and compared their skill level and degree of defensive driving engaged in, we'd come out way ahead. Also if I hit a car while riding my T Bird I'm unlikely to kill anyone other than myself, whereas if I hit a car driving my mighty Bluebird I'll cause one hell of a lot of damage.

[SMOKEU]

I don't really think that much will happen to these dangerous drivers, because we all know that burnouts and noisy exhausts are far more dangerous than driving on the wrong side of the road around blind corners. The government told me so.

[Katman]

I agree, a lot of motorcyclists are pretty stupid and should get trainer wheels and speed limters fitted just like a lot of car drivers are bloody good at what they do, but I think if you took the average biker and the average citizen cage driver, and compared their skill level and degree of defensive driving engaged in, we'd come out way ahead.

Really?

We make up 2% of the road going fleet but are involved in 10% of all road accidents.

Doesn't sound like an overwhelming display of great skills or defensive riding to me.

[shrub]

Really?

We make up 2% of the road going fleet but are involved in 10% of all road accidents.

Doesn't sound like great skills or defensive riding to me.

Sadly motorcycles are inherently dangerous for a number of reasons, and in some cases no matter how good the rider they are going to have an off (pea gravel in the middle of a corner is a common one this time of year) so maybe we shouldn't ride the things.

Or maybe we should recognise that most long term riders are careful and skilled and haven't had an off for a long time, and that there are a small percentage of riders who are bloody awful. Or beginners - in my first year I came off regularly, although a lot of that was caused by a pretty awful bike with apalling brakes that were either on or off and a frame with hinges everywhere combined with square Chinese tyres (I couldn't understand why other bikers spent so much money on tyres).

[SMOKEU]

We make up 2% of the road going fleet but are involved in 10% of all road accidents.


Is that so? I've driven about 20,000km in total in cages and I've caused 3 crashes, and I've done about 15,000km in total on bikes without incident. Therefore, bikes are safer than cages as a bike has less surface area than a cage in which it can hit an object.

[Katman]

Sadly motorcycles are inherently dangerous for a number of reasons, and in some cases no matter how good the rider they are going to have an off (pea gravel in the middle of a corner is a common one this time of year) so maybe we shouldn't ride the things.



Defensive riding as about learning to avoid accidents - even the ones that we feel we had no blame in.

[shrub]

Is that so? I've driven about 20,000km in total in cages and I've caused 3 crashes, and I've done about 15,000km in total on bikes without incident. Therefore, bikes are safer than cages as a bike has less surface area than a cage in which it can hit an object.

Personally driving my cage scares me. Horrible, dangerous things and I am scared shitless of taking someone out. They're huge great things, have no visibility, are as slow as a wet week and you can't find an escape route.

[MSTRS]

Really?

We make up 2% of the road going fleet but are involved in 10% of all road accidents.

Doesn't sound like an overwhelming display of great skills or defensive riding to me.

Without seeming to be an apologist for motorcyclists, that is too simplistic.
We all know that there are 'millions' of things that can go wrong for a rider, that would hardly even register on the whoops meter for someone in a car.

[shrub]

Defensive riding as about learning to avoid accidents - even the ones that we feel we had no blame in.

Precisely, and my argument is that most experienced motorcyclists ride defensively. You don't get to be an experienced biker without defensive riding skills, whereas a huge number of citizens have been driving 20 and 30 years but still have no idea about defensive driving.

[bogan]

no need to argue guys, we were mentioned in that article too


On one occasion the truckie snapped a woman pushing a pram in front of an oncoming truck; on another, a motorcyclist texting while riding.

I tried that once, my impression was it was no more dangerous than texting while driving, though I was ready to chuck my phone if needed.

And mixed feelings on the gorge thing, there are places where its safe to pass (100m vis after), but only if you are following a slow vehicle and are on a decent bike or sports car. So In saying that though, of th 54 they snapped I'd be willing to be very few, if any actually passed someone, and even less would indicate when they do!

[schrodingers cat]

Precisely, and my argument is that most experienced motorcyclists ride defensively.

Gee I've seen some pretty offensive riding :innocent:

Its not just bikes that need to watch out. Driving sedatly yesterday towing a trailer on a long straight peice of road (that we specialise in down this way) in broad daylight, excellent visability, very low traffic volume when a Hilux Surf that had been stationary on the side of the road pulled out directly into my path. I had to brake hard enough to make the dogs complain. It wasn't a cockie. It was a moron. Mirrors are for pussies obviously. Another case of SIDSY.

It was outside the prison so perhaps they were celebrating another sucessful drugs drop.

[Katman]

Precisely, and my argument is that most experienced motorcyclists ride defensively.

If that were truly the case our accident stats would read completely differently.


Without seeming to be an apologist for motorcyclists, that is too simplistic.
We all know that there are 'millions' of things that can go wrong for a rider, that would hardly even register on the whoops meter for someone in a car.


Go re-read post #8 John.

[MSTRS]

... go re-read post #8.

I did read it. I note the word 'learning' in there. Which is indicative of making mistakes until one gets it right...
Your point, again?

[Flip]

Is that so? I've driven about 20,000km in total in cages and I've caused 3 crashes, and I've done about 15,000km in total on bikes without incident. Therefore, bikes are safer than cages as a bike has less surface area than a cage in which it can hit an object.

Can you let us know what sort of car you drive so we can keep away from you, please?

I have driven about a million miles and have never had an accident. I have ridden about 1/3 million miles and fell off in gravel in 86 and was knocked off the Harley in town last year (the driver was charged with careless causing).

I live out of town near Christchurch and every day I have to avoid some complete fucking wanker driving on the wrong side of the road. They are usually late middle aged men driving 4WD vehicles taking racing lines. there are some terrible drivers out there and whats worse they are practiced bad drivers.

[Katman]

I did read it. I note the word 'learning' in there. Which is indicative of making mistakes until one gets it right...
Your point, again?

Learning doesn't have to mean making mistakes.

[MSTRS]

The stats say otherwise....
Young riders and returning riders are the standout features.

[sinfull]

Learning doesn't have to mean making mistakes.


The stats say otherwise....
Young riders and returning riders are the standout features. Have to agree with KM statement though John the stats say Motorcyclists need to have more defencive training or a FAR harder licencing test !
Mistakes is whats costing young and old riders lives, there own and not recognising other drivers mistakes, before it's too late and they wear the consequences !

[MSTRS]

I'm not disagreeing, though. Just clarifying the point that no-one gets good at defensive riding without practice. Practise is learning.
Learning means getting things wrong, as in making mistakes. As we all know, mistakes on motorcycles can be very unforgiving. Much more so than making a similar mistake in a car.
Hence, to an extent, why we show so highly in the accident stats.

[T.W.R]

Is that so? I've driven about 20,000km in total in cages and I've caused 3 crashes, and I've done about 15,000km in total on bikes without incident. Therefore, bikes are safer than cages as a bike has less surface area than a cage in which it can hit an object.

That's scary causing 3 accidents on a average of every 6666.67kms :shutup:


Yeah, cos we're all angels.

Righteous crusader it'll continue in the after life :shifty:

[Flip]

Righteous crusader it'll continue in the after life :shifty:

I hope thats not a HONDA step through.

[Katman]

Hence, to an extent, why we show so highly in the accident stats.

We feature so highly in the accident stats because we all too often fail to learn from our own mistakes as well as the mistakes of others.

How many times do we need to see something go wrong before it sinks in?

[MSTRS]

Now, that I can agree with....

[shrub]

If that were truly the case our accident stats would read completely differently.

Have you read Charley Lamb's research? i think you'll find that the data supports my argument.

[Katman]

Have you read Charley Lamb's research? i think you'll find that the data supports my argument.

Yes, I've read it.

I've also expressed my opinion of it.

[shrub]

We feature so highly in the accident stats because we all too often fail to learn from our own mistakes as well as the mistakes of others.

How many times do we need to see something go wrong before it sinks in?

In Charley's research the mode for bike capacity was 250cc - starter for 10: Who rides 250cc motorcycles? The researchh conducted both here and overseas shows a significant negative correlation between accident rate and experience - something we all know intuitively, so you're wrong; we are learning.

[shrub]

Yes, I've read it.

I've also expressed my opinion of it.

And what is your opinion?

[Katman]

And what is your opinion?

My opinion is that Professor Lamb thinks more of staying onside with motorcyclists than he does of his professorial integrity.

[Grubber]

It's a matter of how many dorks ride and drive is the problem.I am no saint on my bike but i do tend to be very selective as to where i play up. My feeling is that there is plenty of idiots riding, as there is driving, but i do tend to think that there is a slightly higher percentage that ride bikes and i think that is just the nature of the beast in many ways. It's just a bigger buzz to ride than drive. My 2c worth. None of us are perfect enough to judge others me thinks.

[MSTRS]

In Charley's research the mode for bike capacity was 250cc - starter for 10: Who rides 250cc motorcycles? The researchh conducted both here and overseas shows a significant negative correlation between accident rate and experience - something we all know intuitively, so you're wrong; we are learning.

But when KM says that we take too long to learn, and/or we don't learn from the mistakes that others make, he is right.
Naturally, the majority of 250 riders will be relatively inexperienced and will have some (nasty) avoidable crashes. A significant number who make it through will make a quantum leap onto a big bike, thinking they can handle it and use what they learned on their 250 = disaster.
Then there's the ones who manage to avoid disaster, perhaps by sheer good luck. That can only last for so long...
And lastly, we have the ones who actually learned (from all sources) and can be considered 'safe' riders. Those are ones we'd like eveyone else to become...

[shrub]

My opinion is that Professor Lamb thinks more of staying onside with motorcyclists than he does of his professorial integrity.

Ah. Then you don't know Professor Lamb or understand the process that his research went through. That explains a lot, and I suspect the main reason you are incorrect is you are unwilling to accept an argument that is contrary to your position regardless of the basis of that argument.

Believe me, Charley would not publish his research if it could be faulted - his professional reputation as an academic is worth much more to him than the opinion of a few motorcyclists.

[Katman]

Believe me, Charley would not publish his research if it could be faulted - his professional reputation as an academic is worth much more to him than the opinion of a few motorcyclists.

Plenty of us have faulted his research.

[bogan]

It's a matter of how many dorks ride and drive is the problem.I am no saint on my bike but i do tend to be very selective as to where i play up. My feeling is that there is plenty of idiots riding, as there is driving, but i do tend to think that there is a slightly higher percentage that ride bikes and i think that is just the nature of the beast in many ways. It's just a bigger buzz to ride than drive. My 2c worth. None of us are perfect enough to judge others me thinks.

thats worth a lot more than 2c I reckon.

[shrub]

Then there's the ones who manage to avoid disaster, perhaps by sheer good luck. That can only last for so long...
And lastly, we have the ones who actually learned (from all sources) and can be considered 'safe' riders. Those are ones we'd like eveyone else to become...

Precisely, if you aren't a competent and safe rider you won't be a rider for long, or you'll be smart enough to pull your bike out a couple of times a year to go to a rally somewhere, drink piss and go home and back to your cage. My argument is that the average experienced motorcycle rider is significantly more skilled than the average experienced car driver, and that skill is not about how fast you can get to Akaroa on a Sunday afternoon, but is probably more a case of how you respond to the dangers around you - a good rider may well be the last one to Akaroa.

I have seen some riding that shits me to tears, and it's often men on large American cruisers or people of indeterminate gender on high powered sportsbikes. The question I ask myself, is how long will they continue to ride?

[Swoop]

the stats say Motorcyclists need to have more defencive training or a FAR harder licencing test !
We have been saying exactly that for years. The "licence from a cornflakes packet" approach that we have had for far too long, is producing the drivers/motorists' that we see and complain about on a regular basis. These "skills" (or lack thereof) are being passed onto further generations who see this as acceptable practice.
It's not like any government is going to do anything about that though...

Ah. Then you don't know Professor Lamb or understand the process that his research went through.

Believe me, Charley would not publish his research if it could be faulted...
That is why peer reviews are conducted on research prior to it being published. If his findings upset some people, so be it.

[shrub]

Plenty of us have faulted his research.

Oh? How? His data source was pretty sound, his data analysis method was rock solid and his conclusions fit all the validity criteria I'm aware of. I know Charley would be keen to get any valid criticism he can because his reputation as an academic is dependent on the strength of his research, and if his reseach is flawed he'll want to know.

[schrodingers cat]

Learning doesn't have to mean making mistakes.

Totally disagree. You may wish to modify your statement to 'Learning doesn't have to mean making injury causing mistakes'. Then we can agree

Also worth noting that the old chesnut -' Practise makes perfect' is inaccurate.
Pratice makes Permanant.
Perfect practice makes perfect

That is all

[Katman]

Oh? How? His data source was pretty sound, his data analysis method was rock solid and his conclusions fit all the validity criteria I'm aware of. I know Charley would be keen to get any valid criticism he can because his reputation as an academic is dependent on the strength of his research, and if his reseach is flawed he'll want to know.

It's in your own Motorcycle Accident Myths thread. From about page 10 onwards.

[Katman]

Totally disagree. You may wish to modify your statement to 'Learning doesn't have to mean making injury causing mistakes'. Then we can agree


Plenty of learning can be done through careful study and analysis of others mistakes.

Mistakes do not have to be made by the learner.

[schrodingers cat]

Plenty of learning can be done through careful study and analysis of others mistakes.

Mistakes do not have to be made by the learner.

Agree in part. Sooner or later the learner will have to try for themselves at which point they WILL make mistakes. Hopefully the prior learning and preparation will mean that the outcome of the mistake is mitigated.

'A wise man learns from others mistakes'
'The man who has never made a mistake has made fuck all'


Think carefully and use your words now

[T.W.R]

Plenty of us have faulted his research.

Charley lamb would be intelectually a far bigger man than you'll ever be and probably more of a motorcyclist too. He doesn't get on here bleeting self righteous ramblings like yourself he actually stood up and did something solid on motorcyclist's behalf.....take a leaf out of his book and step up, do something instead of continously making noise here.

Empty vessels make the most noise

[Flip]

I have no problems with Charley's research, it was very well done. What did he say, motorcycling is dangerous, inexperienced, unskilled or riders who fail to understand the risks associated with riding have bad accidents. It's just applied eugenics, stupid riders don't pass their stupid jeans on.

There are bold riders and old riders but no old bold riders.

Ride like a fool and die.

I really do support compulsory rider training say every 10 years, no training pass no class 6 license. I also think if you cause a accident you loose your license until you have redone the training.

[shrub]

It's in your own Motorcycle Accident Myths thread. From about page 10 onwards.

Well that was a waste of time. I read the petulent bleatings of a couple of people who disagreed and who made it quite clear that they have neither access to the kind of data Charley has, nor have any apparent understanding of statistical analysis.

[shrub]

I have no problems with Charley's research, it was very well done.

But it didn't say that almost all motorcycle accidents are the fault of the rider, so he's wrong. Or so KM would have us believe.

[T.W.R]

Plenty of learning can be done through careful study and analysis of others mistakes.

Mistakes do not have to be made by the learner.

Step up cyber giant

[BoristheBiter]

there are some terrible drivers out there and whats worse they are practiced bad drivers.

+1
This is why we should have to resit our licence every 10 years or to get out of the bad habits picked up i the preceding years.

[bogan]

Well that was a waste of time. I read the petulent bleatings of a couple of people who disagreed and who made it quite clear that they have neither access to the kind of data Charley has, nor have any apparent understanding of statistical analysis.

would you mind explaining such statements in that thread? as I was one of those not entirely satisfied with the report. I wrote a big post #215 summarizing my take on the stats.

[Genie]

and some of them drive here...
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/7326975/police-catch-54-motorists-driving-on-wrong-side/

[Katman]

Well that was a waste of time. I read the petulent bleatings of a couple of people who disagreed and who made it quite clear that they have neither access to the kind of data Charley has, nor have any apparent understanding of statistical analysis.

Hey, I'd love to hear Professor Lambs response to the questions raised about his manner of research.

Or is he so intellectual that he doesn't feel the need to explain his methods to the likes of us?

[BoristheBiter]

Precisely, if you aren't a competent and safe rider you won't be a rider for long, or you'll be smart enough to pull your bike out a couple of times a year to go to a rally somewhere, drink piss and go home and back to your cage. My argument is that the average experienced motorcycle rider is significantly more skilled than the average experienced car driver, and that skill is not about how fast you can get to Akaroa on a Sunday afternoon, but is probably more a case of how you respond to the dangers around you - a good rider may well be the last one to Akaroa.

I have seen some riding that shits me to tears, and it's often men on large American cruisers or people of indeterminate gender on high powered sportsbikes. The question I ask myself, is how long will they continue to ride?

Where I agree with what you have said you have also missed out the overconfident experienced riders.
Just because you have done something for a long time does not make you good at it.

[Flip]

Thats a little too black and white for me. What he did say, and I don't have a copy in front of me, is that in all cases the rider failed to recognize and correctly identify the hazardous situation they were in. This has nothing to do with blame, or who was at fault. Hazard identification and taking the correct action is a black art when you have to do it in real time, some riders have the knack, most do not.

How do you teach wisdom?

[Spearfish]

This subject gets put through the wringer almost as often as a cop bashing thread.
I thought the author of the article had an appropriate name this time.

So according to some here a progressive training school would only be able to move onto the next level once the trainees have left hospital, Really??

No one would agree on how the training should be done anyway.
Why should bikers be forced to train anyway, its:
the road conditions
cagers
popo
GOVT
ACC
Group rides
HD riders
Scooters
Sport bike riders
Recreational riders
off road riders
commuter riders

but its not me though, aye.

[Ixion]

.. I really do support compulsory rider training say every 10 years, no training pass no class 6 license. I also think if you cause a accident you loose your license until you have redone the training.

But who is to provide that training? AA ? I wouldn't let an AA trained rider within 50 foot of a bike. Riding schools. Most are OK for basic training , to pass the full license. Which is not a very exciting standard And about as much use as the AA after that. Mr Katman ? He claims to be the universal expert. I think that would totally destroy motorcycling. If only because no other motorcyclist would ever meet his (self proclaimed) standard of total personal perfection.

My observation is that most "motorcycle trainers" tend to follow the Ulysses model. Ride slowly in the middle of the lane and pretend to be a two wheeled car. The only ones I would have any faith in , or be willing to follow myself would be the Police riding trainers. And that won't ever happen.

I think there is too much faith placed in the complacent phrase "training". There is nothing really teaches roadcraft and survivability other than hours in the saddle. In all road contexts. Night, heavy traffic (how are you going to train riders to deal with heavy , Auckland type traffic, if they live in Westport? ) , open road . You can't go on a X hour course to get all that.

"Training" is a nice phrase, but real training takes years.

[Katman]

Hazard identification and taking the correct action is a black art when you have to do it in real time, some riders have the knack, most do not.

How do you teach wisdom?

There's nothing 'black art' about it.

Those who don't work at developing their situational awareness and hazard identification skills are just plain lazy or inherently stupid.

[danielle]

In regards to the article, i think its awesome the cops are actively trying to reduce crashes by undertaking this sort of research

In regard to the motorcycle vs car, im more actively aware of what im doing on my bike than when im in my car, but thats just because when im in my car i have the false comfort of four walls. I beleive its me being actively aware of my surroundings that makes me a competent rider, as im not the most experienced and i have no false comforts.

Just my 2cents

[SMOKEU]

Can you let us know what sort of car you drive so we can keep away from you, please?



Don't worry, I've given up on cages. Too thirsty and unreliable.


That's scary causing 3 accidents on a average of every 6666.67kms :shutup:



I only wrote 2 of those cars off, the other one didn't have THAT much chassis damage to it.

[Flip]

This subject gets put through the wringer almost as often as a cop bashing thread.
I thought the author of the article had an appropriate name this time.

So according to some here a progressive training school would only be able to move onto the next level once the trainees have left hospital, Really??

No one would agree on how the training should be done anyway.
Why should bikers be forced to train anyway, its:
the road conditions
cagers
popo
GOVT
ACC
Group rides
HD riders
Scooters
Sport bike riders
Recreational riders
off road riders
commuter riders

but its not me though, aye.

No its always us-we-me, I am the only thing in common with all these hazards and I have no (direct) control over any of the above list. The only thing I can and do asses the risks and take all steps necessary to eliminate or minimize the hazard so that it does not hurt me.

I am ultimately responsible for my own road safety.

[Katman]

I am ultimately responsible for my own road safety.

Hurrah!!!!!!!

[T.W.R]

I only wrote 2 of those cars off, the other one didn't have THAT much chassis damage to it.

still that equates to an accident every 4mths on a generalised average amount of kms per year basis which equals BAD/Dangerous driving habits

[bogan]

But who is to provide that training? AA ? I wouldn't let an AA trained rider within 50 foot of a bike. Riding schools. Most are OK for basic training , to pass the full license. Which is not a very exciting standard And about as much use as the AA after that. Mr Katman ? He claims to be the universal expert. I think that would totally destroy motorcycling. If only because no other motorcyclist would ever meet his (self proclaimed) standard of total personal perfection.

My observation is that most "motorcycle trainers" tend to follow the Ulysses model. Ride slowly in the middle of the lane and pretend to be a two wheeled car. The only ones I would have any faith in , or be willing to follow myself would be the Police riding trainers. And that won't ever happen.

I think there is too much faith placed in the complacent phrase "training". There is nothing really teaches roadcraft and survivability other than hours in the saddle. In all road contexts. Night, heavy traffic (how are you going to train riders to deal with heavy , Auckland type traffic, if they live in Westport? ) , open road . You can't go on a X hour course to get all that.

"Training" is a nice phrase, but real training takes years.

but perhaps any sort of training would also change the attitudes, having to work to get a license may make some thing perhaps this is some serious shit and I should pay more attention.

[Katman]

Mr Katman ? He claims to be the universal expert.

Care to point out where I make that claim?

Or are you just full of shit?

[MSTRS]

Experienced motorcyclists will read between the lines (it's part of their hazard awareness skills)...

[BoristheBiter]

My observation is that most "motorcycle trainers" tend to follow the Ulysses model. Ride slowly in the middle of the lane and pretend to be a two wheeled car. The only ones I would have any faith in , or be willing to follow myself would be the Police riding trainers. And that won't ever happen.



"Training" is a nice phrase, but real training takes years.

If you have faith in the model why would you not follow it?
This is not a troll Ixion i would realy like to know why if you think this is the best you wouldn't do it.
It just seems a little odd.

[Flip]

But who is to provide that training? AA ? I wouldn't let an AA trained rider within 50 foot of a bike. Riding schools. Most are OK for basic training , to pass the full license. Which is not a very exciting standard And about as much use as the AA after that. Mr Katman ? He claims to be the universal expert. I think that would totally destroy motorcycling. If only because no other motorcyclist would ever meet his (self proclaimed) standard of total personal perfection.

My observation is that most "motorcycle trainers" tend to follow the Ulysses model. Ride slowly in the middle of the lane and pretend to be a two wheeled car. The only ones I would have any faith in , or be willing to follow myself would be the Police riding trainers. And that won't ever happen.

I think there is too much faith placed in the complacent phrase "training". There is nothing really teaches roadcraft and survivability other than hours in the saddle. In all road contexts. Night, heavy traffic (how are you going to train riders to deal with heavy , Auckland type traffic, if they live in Westport? ) , open road . You can't go on a X hour course to get all that.

"Training" is a nice phrase, but real training takes years.

Training is only the start of motorcycle wisdom and it does take decades to gain these skills. Teach, practice and review at the appropriate say beginner, intermediate and advanced rider skill level would be a suitable but not perfect training frame work to use. The skills necessary to pilot a moped through Auckland traffic are completely different to those necessary to pilot a heavy laden touring bike down the west coast of the south island at high speed but they are not mutually exclusive.

I do like Andrew Templeton's Ride Safe course, it was by far the best course I have ever done, this sounds a lot like the Police course. I have just ordered the Police Roadcraft book from the UK and are looking forward to reading it.

You forget there is also the BRONZ way, criticize anything that anybody else does then do nothing when it all gets too hard.

[SMOKEU]

still that equates to an accident every 4mths on a generalised average amount of kms per year basis which equals BAD/Dangerous driving habits

We all used to be young and stupid, some more than others.

[FJRider]

How do you teach wisdom?

Wisdom is a little like experience ... you don't get it untill just after you need it ...

[T.W.R]

Care to point out where I make that claim?

Or are you just full of shit?

Poor old skatman loosing the plot

Intelectual genius at work even the eloquence of the delightful rep for post #42 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/124277-It-s-official-there-are-some-heinous-drivers-out-there?p=1129771301#post1129771301)

2nd June 2010 12:04
Katman Thread: It's official - there...
Get fucked retard.

[bogan]

Poor old skatman loosing the plot

pffft, thats not losing the plot, thats his SOP :laugh:

[Elysium]

Gotta love the Gorge. Can't think of any manawatu rider who hasn't crossed the centre line while riding(racing) the gorge, including me :innocent: There're some parts of the gorge where passing is safe as you can see quite far ahead of you on some corners, but of course it's easy on a bike unlike a car.

My gripe is with trucks that to me are far too big and long to be using the gorge as I've had to avoid a few trucking comming onto my side of the road from around blind corners.

[T.W.R]

pffft, thats not losing the plot, thats his SOP :laugh:

The tone of his rep was either an admission that he's an empty vessel or he hasn't got the balls to actually take his cynical ramblings out into the public arena and put his money where his mouth is.
If he's so devout about what HE believes is the right & only way to approach motorcycling he should step upto the mark and do something solid towards his beliefs and put it in the public's eye.
After a few decades of motorcycling you see people like him come & go, and generally they do as much damage as good.
Around here on KB he's like the party drunk that ridicules many yet preaches sanctimoniously about making motorcycling stronger.
Put the sqeeze on someone like that they'll usually show their true colours eventually.......just like his wee slip-up rep

[Katman]

just like his wee slip-up rep

You reckon that was a slip-up?

You're obviously more retarded than I thought.

[Punchy]

Please, if you are going to keep throwing the word 'intellectual' around, at least spell it right. Irony is delicious.

And I pass people that do 40km/h in the Gorge. You don't explode and burst into flame the second you cross the yellow lines, but rest assured I ensure there is enough time and space to make it safely.

[T.W.R]

You reckon that was a slip-up?

You're obviously more retarded than I thought.

Keep it coming and show your true colours muppet

[Flip]

Please, if you are going to keep throwing the word 'intellectual' around, at least spell it right. Irony is delicious.

And I pass people that do 40km/h in the Gorge. You don't explode and burst into flame the second you cross the yellow lines, but rest assured I ensure there is enough time and space to make it safely.

You don't?

My fav is "accommodation" see how many hotels and motels get it wrong on signs.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I don't really think that much will happen to these dangerous drivers, because we all know that burnouts and noisy exhausts are far more dangerous than driving on the wrong side of the road around blind corners. The government told me so.

That and 4kph over the limit. In Soviet Russia it is Gulag for 4 kmh over limit, western decadence imposes only a small fine.

[Punchy]

In Soviet Russia, double yellows pass on you.

[Flip]

In Soviet Russia, double yellows pass on you.

Nobody rushes in Russia.

[Ixion]

If you have faith in the model why would you not follow it?
This is not a troll Ixion i would realy like to know why if you think this is the best you wouldn't do it.
It just seems a little odd.

*I* would be delighted to do it. Tell me where to sign up ! But the police High command would never permit the police instructors to run a public course - at any rate one that was more then a half hour lecture. The official police policy is that any sort of advanced training is bad because it makes people speed. Seriously.

[bogan]

Gotta love the Gorge. Can't think of any manawatu rider who hasn't crossed the centre line while riding(racing) the gorge, including me :innocent: There're some parts of the gorge where passing is safe as you can see quite far ahead of you on some corners, but of course it's easy on a bike unlike a car.

My gripe is with trucks that to me are far too big and long to be using the gorge as I've had to avoid a few trucking comming onto my side of the road from around blind corners.

guilty! the odd time we obeyed the yellows though, and went bout 20kmhr on the straights, and somewhat quicker on the twisty bits. Probably didn't help much with the cager/biker relations with the guys behind us on the straights though :shifty:

yeh, but thats poor road design rather than truckies fault, and the other options from hb to palmy are even worse!

[Ixion]

[QUOTE]

Well, not exactly nothing when it come to rider training. BRONZ runs Ride Right Ride Safe, about the only permanent not-for-profit rider survival training scheme there is . A full days practical training , plus a free Road Code for $60. Not 'pass your license practical' training, but 'don't get squashed' training, which is a different thing.

[rastuscat]

Just a thought.

I'm a car driver and a bike rider. My decision making is the same on both vehicles. Trouble is, a minor balls up in the car is easily survived, but the same balls up on a bike is way more dangerous. The same numpty (for example, me) make the balls up, but the circumstances (i.e. I'm on a bike) make it worse.

Maybe that's why the stats say we are worse drivers, when is fact we are actually the same, but subject to the risks of riding.

Harumph.

[PirateJafa]

Nobody rushes in Russia.

I beg to differ.

Having lived there for several years, Russian drivers can make New Zealand drivers look positively pedestrian in comparison.

[BoristheBiter]

*I* would be delighted to do it. Tell me where to sign up ! But the police High command would never permit the police instructors to run a public course - at any rate one that was more then a half hour lecture. The official police policy is that any sort of advanced training is bad because it makes people speed. Seriously.

Cheers for that I was just wondering.
You guys do the rrrs course, have you thought for get an old police instructor or the like and run the course for the public?

[Ixion]

It gets complicted, cos of the legalities. Strictly, it's illegal to offer instruction for payment without an instructors endorsement. We did look at doing it for free , but there are expenses which we couldn't cover. And the training at RRRS isn't according to the NZTA syllabus (or whatever they use ). I think one of the 'instructors' is ex MoT. But that's one man. For the whole country.

It's also not easy to find people who have the necessary experience and are good at instructing. Bearing in mind, what we are talking about is not "what the road code says " stuff, nor is it "how to go round corners really fast" either. .

[shrub]

I think the thread has lost it's way (as is often the way with the interwebnet). Katman, Charley Lamb was completely wrong and motorcycling is so incredibly dangerous that none of us should do it unless we're on speed-limited GN250s with trainer wheels wearing high vis vests and have completed a minimum of a brazillian hours rider training. Happy?

My observation was that finally the cuntstabulary are openly admitting that there are a lot of bloody icompetent drivers, and maybe the biggest cause of accidents is incompetent drivers.

[Elysium]

I think the thread has lost it's way (as is often the way with the interwebnet). Katman, Charley Lamb was completely wrong and motorcycling is so incredibly dangerous that none of us should do it unless we're on speed-limited GN250s with trainer wheels wearing high vis vests and have completed a minimum of a brazillian hours rider training. Happy?

My observation was that finally the cuntstabulary are openly admitting that there are a lot of bloody icompetent drivers, and maybe the biggest cause of accidents is incompetent drivers.

This sums it up. http://www.easymobilityco.com/images/pride_scooters/legend/3b.jpg

[shrub]

This sums it up. http://www.easymobilityco.com/images/pride_scooters/legend/3b.jpg

Nice piece of kit! Damn we'd all be so safe on that puppy - all we need is a nice little man to walk in front of us carrying a red flag and motorcycling will be safe.

[Katman]

I think the thread has lost it's way (as is often the way with the interwebnet). Katman, Charley Lamb was completely wrong and motorcycling is so incredibly dangerous that none of us should do it unless we're on speed-limited GN250s with trainer wheels wearing high vis vests and have completed a minimum of a brazillian hours rider training. Happy?

My observation was that finally the cuntstabulary are openly admitting that there are a lot of bloody icompetent drivers, and maybe the biggest cause of accidents is incompetent drivers.

You're clearly as retarded as that T.W.R. clown.

The biggest cause of motorcycle accidents is a combination of poor motorcyclists attitudes and poor motorcyclists hazard awareness skills.

[shrub]

You're clearly as retarded as that T.W.R. clown.

The biggest cause of motorcycle accidents is a combination of poor motorcyclists attitudes and poor motorcyclists hazard awareness skills.

Yes, of course it is. That and the fact that motorcycles are dangerous and fall over. And isn't it great that finally the authorities are recognising that a hell of a lot of car drivers are incompetent? Maybe we will start seeing a break from the "deal with speeding and you deal with vehicle crashes" mentality.

[Katman]

Yes, of course it is. That and the fact that motorcycles are dangerous and fall over. And isn't it great that finally the authorities are recognising that a hell of a lot of car drivers are incompetent? Maybe we will start seeing a break from the "deal with speeding and you deal with vehicle crashes" mentality.

I've never said "deal with speeding and you deal with vehicle crashes".

I've always said "deal with the grey matter that (hopefully) resides between the motorcyclists ears and you'll deal with motorcycle accidents".

[shrub]

I've never said "deal with speeding and you deal with vehicle crashes".

I've always said "deal with the grey matter that (hopefully) resides between the motorcyclists ears and you'll deal with motorcycle accidents".

Um, Katman, this isn't about you. This is about the authorities (which you're not).

[Katman]

That and the fact that motorcycles are dangerous and fall over.

No they're not.

My bike can sit there for hours on end and never fall over.

[bogan]

Yes, of course it is. That and the fact that motorcycles are dangerous and fall over. And isn't it great that finally the authorities are recognising that a hell of a lot of car drivers are incompetent? Maybe we will start seeing a break from the "deal with speeding and you deal with vehicle crashes" mentality.

:lol: can't wait for that day, but doesnt seem likely atm. You heard what they are doing to combat the (whatever holiday weekend this is) road toll? no excuses policy and ticketing for 4 kmhr over the limit, wonder how many accidents will be caused by drivers watching thier speedo too closely, or how many real issues police will miss while theyve pulled people over.

[shrub]

:lol: can't wait for that day, but doesnt seem likely atm. You heard what they are doing to combat the (whatever holiday weekend this is) road toll? no excuses policy and ticketing for 4 kmhr over the limit, wonder how many accidents will be caused by drivers watching thier speedo too closely, or how many real issues police will miss while theyve pulled people over.

4 kmh over the limit? I wondered when that would happen - all you need to do is look at the TV ads of the retard driving his Corolla to show that they were winding up to a lower tolerance tax take.

And in the meantime driver inattention and lack of skill are ignored.

[bogan]

4 kmh over the limit? I wondered when that would happen - all you need to do is look at the TV ads of the retard driving his Corolla to show that they were winding up to a lower tolerance tax take.

And in the meantime driver inattention and lack of skill are ignored.

exactly, that ad pisses me off as it highlights the bullshit message about speed, he was doing 60kmhr round a blind fucking corner (or if it wasn't blind it was lack of attention, funny how those ads never show the full corner init), it wasn't his doing 60kmhr on the straight that made him crash, but going too fast for the conditions. Incidentaly, going around a slightly sharper, slightly more blind corner at 50kmhr would have exactly the same fucking result, but now all the numpties will think it fine to do that cos the ads tell them it is.

[scumdog]

4 kmh over the limit? I wondered when that would happen - all you need to do is look at the TV ads of the retard driving his Corolla to show that they were winding up to a lower tolerance tax take.

And in the meantime driver inattention and lack of skill are ignored.

Meh, if he'd had that flash 'stbility control' shit he'd have been sweet but noooo, he had to drive a dunger...

[T.W.R]

You're clearly as retarded as that T.W.R. clown.

The biggest cause of motorcycle accidents is a combination of poor motorcyclists attitudes and poor motorcyclists hazard awareness skills.

As I said keep it up, arrogance is your master play. you delight in dishing out crap towards others yet when someone sets a play at you you're like a rat in a corner.
Speaks volumes in it's self really how you childishly start with the insults

Truth be known you probably couldn't ride a hot knife into butter let alone handle a bike properly.


Nothing retarded about calling you out, just the fact it got a retarded response or was it a taste of your actual intellect
Maybe you can't get your over indulged ego around the fact of putting your money where your mouth is, come on front up and get out in the big wide world and preach to the masses instead of spouting out loud here to a percentage of motorcyclists. get out from hiding behind your computer screen and show us what you're made of empty vessel :not:

[Katman]

Blah, blah, blah.............,

:tugger: <hgvhgvhjv>

[shrub]

exactly, that ad pisses me off as it highlights the bullshit message about speed, he was doing 60kmhr round a blind fucking corner (or if it wasn't blind it was lack of attention, funny how those ads never show the full corner init), it wasn't his doing 60kmhr on the straight that made him crash, but going too fast for the conditions. Incidentaly, going around a slightly sharper, slightly more blind corner at 50kmhr would have exactly the same fucking result, but now all the numpties will think it fine to do that cos the ads tell them it is.

He was also cutting the corner which is why he had to swerve to avoid a correctly parked car. he is an incompetent driver who isn't paying attention. His speed is a side issue, but Our Masters are softening us up to remove the 10kmh buffer

[BoristheBiter]

It gets complicted, cos of the legalities. Strictly, it's illegal to offer instruction for payment without an instructors endorsement. We did look at doing it for free , but there are expenses which we couldn't cover. And the training at RRRS isn't according to the NZTA syllabus (or whatever they use ). I think one of the 'instructors' is ex MoT. But that's one man. For the whole country.

It's also not easy to find people who have the necessary experience and are good at instructing. Bearing in mind, what we are talking about is not "what the road code says " stuff, nor is it "how to go round corners really fast" either. .

Have you been in contact with thet lady from the NS council. Lisa somebody I think.
She was asking about recommendations after my complaints about the training day at Hampton Downs.
I think i have her email around somewhere, you could always get on to her in the Bronze role and see if you can really sort out proper training for riders both new and experinced. it has to start somewhere, like a defensive course just for bikes and not like the one fits all there is at the moment.
I know its complicated when dealing with govt department, When i was with the NZDA some of our subs went to funding lobbyists and even that was hard work.

[BoristheBiter]

He was also cutting the corner which is why he had to swerve to avoid a correctly parked car. he is an incompetent driver who isn't paying attention. His speed is a side issue, but Our Masters are softening us up to remove the 10kmh buffer

Don't forget the dick that just opens his door without looking while parking his car on the bend.

[T.W.R]

:tugger: <hgvhgvhjv>

mature response & a good indication of how hollow you really are

And you don't need to indulge us in your favourite pastime

[T.W.R]

but Our Masters are softening us up to remove the 10kmh buffer

That's been gone for quite a while now :yes:

[shrub]

That's been gone for quite a while now :yes:

I don't think so - they were talking to a woman from the Police this morning on the National Programme and she said that we still had it, although I think ultimately it is up to the discretion of the tax collector concerned. Sean Plunkett asked her if it was a lead up to removing the 10 kmh buffer and she was very evasive. He also asked if it was going to cause people to spend all their time watching their speedos, and she said that would not be a problem because people would be driving much more carefully. Personally I think "driving carefully" and "staring at my speedo" are two very different things, and I for one will be avoiding the roads this weekend in cage or bike because I really don't want to get pinged for 54 kmh whenI go and get the milk and I don't want to be hit by someone who is watching his speedo and not me.

[T.W.R]

although I think ultimately it is up to the discretion of the tax collector concerned.

That's pretty much it.
Though a whilst back they mentioned a reduction on the open road from 110km/h allowance to 105km/h.
Just like my last ticket albeit nearly 10yrs ago for 111km/h :blink: couldn't be naffed argueing the point with the plod......his excuse was feeble and I saw him before he locked me on & I'd been trotting along so took it on the chin :yes:

[BoristheBiter]

That's pretty much it.
Though a whilst back they mentioned a reduction on the open road from 110km/h allowance to 105km/h.
Just like my last ticket albeit nearly 10yrs ago for 111km/h :blink: couldn't be naffed argueing the point with the plod......his excuse was feeble and I saw him before he locked me on & I'd been trotting along so took it on the chin :yes:

So how fast should be able to speed before you get a ticket?

[bogan]

I don't think so - they were talking to a woman from the Police this morning on the National Programme and she said that we still had it, although I think ultimately it is up to the discretion of the tax collector concerned. Sean Plunkett asked her if it was a lead up to removing the 10 kmh buffer and she was very evasive. He also asked if it was going to cause people to spend all their time watching their speedos, and she said that would not be a problem because people would be driving much more carefully. Personally I think "driving carefully" and "staring at my speedo" are two very different things, and I for one will be avoiding the roads this weekend in cage or bike because I really don't want to get pinged for 54 kmh whenI go and get the milk and I don't want to be hit by someone who is watching his speedo and not me.

I won't be riding, but will be watching my speedo closely when i go to hb, also paying extra attention to the centerline in the gorge :lol: least I'll be in a bright yellow van so I shouldn't get the smidsy!


So how fast should be able to speed before you get a ticket?

in an ideal world it would depend on the conditions :yes:

[MSTRS]

I don't think so - they were talking to a woman from the Police this morning on the National Programme and she said that we still had it, although I think ultimately it is up to the discretion of the tax collector concerned. Sean Plunkett asked her if it was a lead up to removing the 10 kmh buffer and she was very evasive. He also asked if it was going to cause people to spend all their time watching their speedos, and she said that would not be a problem because people would be driving much more carefully. Personally I think "driving carefully" and "staring at my speedo" are two very different things, and I for one will be avoiding the roads this weekend in cage or bike because I really don't want to get pinged for 54 kmh whenI go and get the milk and I don't want to be hit by someone who is watching his speedo and not me.

The toll could go either way. But not for the reasons 'they' think.
Down - like above because less people on the road.
Up - MORE divided attention.

Either way, like I said in my first post, this change is a big fail.

[shrub]

I'm heading down tomorrow to stick a years rego on the T Bird, then immediately putting the rego on hold and taking her off the road for a bit of cosmetic loving and excuses to spend more time in the shed and less time working or here. I get scared driving my cage over 40 kmh (terrifying bloody things, can't see why people drive them so much), so I'll be fine.

[Katman]

I'm heading down tomorrow to stick a years rego on the T Bird, then immediately putting the rego on hold and taking her off the road for a bit of cosmetic loving and excuses to spend more time in the shed and less time working or here. I get scared driving my cage over 40 kmh (terrifying bloody things, can't see why people drive them so much), so I'll be fine.

Why would you pay a years rego and then put it straight on hold?

:scratch:

[shrub]

Why would you pay a years rego and then put it straight on hold?

:scratch:

You might remember that in July the cost of registration goes through the roof and so I'm buying the last rego at the old price. I think I can buy 15 months, in which case that's what I'll buy. By putting it on hold when I finish lovin the Bird I'll have 15 months of rego waiting for me before I have to pay silly prices.

[Katman]

You might remember that in July the cost of registration goes through the roof and so I'm buying the last rego at the old price. I think I can buy 15 months, in which case that's what I'll buy. By putting it on hold when I finish lovin the Bird I'll have 15 months of rego waiting for me before I have to pay silly prices.

I don't think that's the way it works.

[shrub]

I don't think that's the way it works.

OK, I may be wrong, so how does it work? I always believed that putting your rego on hold meant you didn't use up any of the rego you had meaning that the end date of your period of registration was extended by the period it was on hold. I don't believe that I would continue to use up my registration while it's on hold.

[MSTRS]

The hold period BEGINS when the rego expires...

[BoristheBiter]

in an ideal world it would depend on the conditions :yes:

And in an ideal world we wouldn't have the need for police.

[shrub]

The hold period BEGINS when the rego expires...

I've just checked with the evil empire, and you and Katman are right. Bugger.

[BoristheBiter]

OK, I may be wrong, so how does it work? I always believed that putting your rego on hold meant you didn't use up any of the rego you had meaning that the end date of your period of registration was extended by the period it was on hold. I don't believe that I would continue to use up my registration while it's on hold.

You put your reg on hold when it runs out. it can be on hold from 3 to 12 months. vehicles on hold do not get penelitys on them nor do you have to pay back rego. they can be re-regoed at any time, still with no peneltys. if you put it on hold after it runs out i think you have to pay for the rego you have missed.

[Berries]

So how fast should be able to speed before you get a ticket?
Although I have heard stories about cops using their discretion and then finding the same person has ploughed off the road a few km's later I do believe that the traffic guys should have a decent feel as to what is a 'safe' speed. There are massive differences between some of our roads and blanket enforcement of an arbitary limit just winds people up. By all means pull them over, but while giving them the patter you should be able to tell whether the person/vehicle can cope with that speed at that location in those conditions and then use your discretion. It is still a contact. Ticket for 106km/h in a passing lane ? That's going to win you a lot of friends. So basically, there is no magic number, apart from 220km/h for me if you can fix it ?

Tickets at 105km/h are going to further impact on the public's view of the Police, particularly when other offences, you know, like the ones that add to the road toll on holiday weekends, go unpunished because they are in the too hard basket.

[BoristheBiter]

Although I have heard stories about cops using their discretion and then finding the same person has ploughed off the road a few km's later I do believe that the traffic guys should have a decent feel as to what is a 'safe' speed. There are massive differences between some of our roads and blanket enforcement of an arbitary limit just winds people up. By all means pull them over, but while giving them the patter you should be able to tell whether the person/vehicle can cope with that speed at that location in those conditions and then use your discretion. It is still a contact. Ticket for 106km/h in a passing lane ? That's going to win you a lot of friends. So basically, there is no magic number, apart from 220km/h for me if you can fix it ?

Tickets at 105km/h are going to further impact on the public's view of the Police, particularly when other offences, you know, like the ones that add to the road toll on holiday weekends, go unpunished because they are in the too hard basket.

Ok so we put the speed limit on the open road up to 110km then ping everyone for 111km then everyone goes on about a ticket for 1km over the limit, and what about 50km zones? do we raise the limit or just give out tickets for 55km.
It is the same as the drinking age being lowered, most have no problem but the ones that do make it shit for eveyon else.
There has to be a line and on the open road it is 100, at least there is discrection.

[T.W.R]

So how fast should be able to speed before you get a ticket?

Well how fast do you normally travel on the road? and your question is like asking why do you need the use of a latest edition race replica for a roadbike?
And there's plenty here who consistantly travel in excess of posted limit signs
It isn't and wasn't about that side of the issue..... as a measure at that point in time the discretion was 11% over the limit according to the radar but how accurate was the radar? how long since it'd be checked for calibration etc and when there are only 2 vehicles as far as the eye could see on that particular piece of dead straight road a flash of the lights or a slow down wave would have been more suitable instead of a addition to his daily revenue collection quota. There's a difference between minor indiscretions and blatant disrepect for the law

[HenryDorsetCase]

So how fast should be able to speed before you get a ticket?

Here's a concept. No speed limit. You're the rider/driver, you decide how fast you should go. But if you are careless, reckless or dangerous, in the opinion of the state official concerned with abserving and admonishing such behavior then you get to argue your case in front of a neutral third party. You know, like we used to have before it became about "infringements" and "quotas" and all that shit.

[BoristheBiter]

Well how fast do you normally travel on the road? and your question is like asking why do you need the use of a latest edition race replica for a roadbike?
And there's plenty here who consistantly travel in excess of posted limit signs
It isn't and wasn't about that side of the issue..... as a measure at that point in time the discretion was 11% over the limit according to the radar but how accurate was the radar? how long since it'd be checked for calibration etc and when there are only 2 vehicles as far as the eye could see on that particular piece of dead straight road a flash of the lights or a slow down wave would have been more suitable instead of a addition to his daily revenue collection quota. There's a difference between minor indiscretions and blatant disrepect for the law

I was looking at it the other way but I get what you mean. I have had a few times when the lights have been flashed or the finger waved so i do think it comes down to the cop at the time.

[Katman]

Here's a concept. No speed limit. You're the rider/driver, you decide how fast you should go. But if you are careless, reckless or dangerous, in the opinion of the state official concerned with abserving and admonishing such behavior then you get to argue your case in front of a neutral third party. You know, like we used to have before it became about "infringements" and "quotas" and all that shit.

Wow, chaos on our roads.

Yeah, I can see that working.

[MSTRS]

Wow, chaos on our roads.

Yeah, I can see that working.

Well, the standard of driving would improve. Once the incapable were 'removed'.

[Katman]

Once the incapable were 'removed'.

Along with the innocent?

[FJRider]

Too often the incapable remain ... but take out the innocent ....

[MSTRS]

No matter what one does, there's ALWAYS a downside...

[FJRider]

No matter what one does, there's ALWAYS a downside...

Would you still call it "a downside" if you were "the innocent" one ... ????

[MSTRS]

That depends...doesn't it?

[Katman]

That depends...doesn't it?

Actually, that's true.

I can think of a few 'Upsides'.

:whistle:

[MSTRS]

Actually, that's true.

I can think of a few 'Upsides'.

:whistle:
What? No-one left to argue with you , on a logical basis, instead of pure emotionally charged retaliation? Assuming, of course, that you are spared from being one of the innocent...

[Flip]

What makes me chuckle is you all blame the rozza for enforcing the road code. Well that's their job and if the twits were not out there pushing the envelope on the roads there would be more cops available for the other rozza duties. If anybody has a problem take it up with the Goverment specifically the Minister of Police (and give them a laugh).

Personally I would not ever like to see the speed limit go any higher than 100kph. There are enough morons out there on the road who can not safely drive at 100 without making it any worse.

Buy a bike with cruise control.

[Swoop]

...and what about 50km zones? do we raise the limit or just give out tickets for 55km.
It is interesting that Queensland has 60kmh areas around residential housing areas where we have 50kmh.

Either their vehicles have better brakes or their drivers are licenced through tougher processes' and get decent training...

Freeways are 110.

[Katman]

What? No-one left to argue with you , on a logical basis, instead of pure emotionally charged retaliation? Assuming, of course, that you are spared from being one of the innocent...

John, I'm shocked!

I've never seen you as one of the 'Upsides'.

:msn-wink:

[BoristheBiter]

It is interesting that Queensland has 60kmh areas around residential housing areas where we have 50kmh.

Either their vehicles have better brakes or their drivers are licenced through tougher processes' and get decent training...

Freeways are 110.

And there discrestion is only 5k over.
But yes to the above.

[Spearfish]

I am ultimately responsible for my own road safety.

Yeah we are at the moment lets hope, for the most part, we learn enough to keep it that way.