Competitive F3 bike set-up costs?

[nz_rider]

My other half and I have been living here for a while now, and are missing the race scene.

So we are looking at setting up an F3 bike. We are wanting to gear one up that is going to be competitive and a lot of fun.

What sort of money are people spending on F3 bikes over here? Are there many people building spec bikes to be competitive in the nationals series? And if so how much is it costing you?
Is it a worth while class to be in if you are going to spend a bit of money, or should we look at a different class?

Cheers:Punk::Punk:

[lostinflyz]

depending where your wanting to compete depends your costs alot.

club racing: sub 10 grand is easy for a near front running bike. most people are running stock SV's or slightly uprated 400's. nothing very flash and not huge money.

nationals: I did it on a stock-ish 400 with good-ish suspenders. was 50kmph down at places, you cant make that up no matter how hard you try. im no flash racer but it was a bit silly. Am currently building a new bike too as close to the limit of f3 as i can afford and it wont be any less than 25k. Most others have spent close to this or more on the national level, and few have been near the front.

I've always liked nice toys but there are plenty out there doing the club racing scene on really small budgets and doing well. but not at nats level. There almost 2 different classes at that level. As i have said else where the difference between podium nationals and club times is anywhere from about 5-8 seconds down south, depending on the track.

[Ozzy27]

Am currently building a new bike too as close to the limit of f3 as i can afford and it wont be any less than 25k. Most others have spent close to this or more on the national level, and few have been near the front.

Sorry but Sketchy won 3 races including the TT at NZ's fastest track on a bike that cost less than $12k to put on track! You just have to be clever and patient when buying the bike and parts to get it up to top spec. I have a 2006 R6 sitting here that would win any club Race as a 450 for $9.5K and for about another 2-3k it would be capable of winning a Nats race with the right rider.
Dont always believe what rumours are around about the cost of some F3 bikes. You have to remember the top guys have a spare engine to the same spec or close and thing like flash wheels are only good for less that a couple of tenths per lap. So unless you can run in the top 2 forget about all the big numbers people talk about and learn to ride faster!!! Spend your money on tyres and track time as this will help a huge amount more than 2hp or 2 kgs
:yes:

[CHOPPA]

depending where your wanting to compete depends your costs alot.

club racing: sub 10 grand is easy for a near front running bike. most people are running stock SV's or slightly uprated 400's. nothing very flash and not huge money.

nationals: I did it on a stock-ish 400 with good-ish suspenders. was 50kmph down at places, you cant make that up no matter how hard you try. im no flash racer but it was a bit silly. Am currently building a new bike too as close to the limit of f3 as i can afford and it wont be any less than 25k. Most others have spent close to this or more on the national level, and few have been near the front.

I've always liked nice toys but there are plenty out there doing the club racing scene on really small budgets and doing well. but not at nats level. There almost 2 different classes at that level. As i have said else where the difference between podium nationals and club times is anywhere from about 5-8 seconds down south, depending on the track.

Shit thats alot!! I spent that on a full spec 600, i could build a superbike capable at running at the front for that!

[nz_rider]

[
nationals: I did it on a stock-ish 400 with good-ish suspenders. was 50kmph down at places, you cant make that up no matter how hard you try. im no flash racer but it was a bit silly. Am currently building a new bike too as close to the limit of f3 as i can afford and it wont be any less than 25k. Most others have spent close to this or more on the national level, and few have been near the front."

Yeah I was sort of thinking around the $30k mark.
It seems to be a lot of money to be outlaying. As you don't get anything back on it when you sell them. But it is an awesome sport.
How do people fund these adventures here in New Zealand?
We had a bike back in the UK and a lot of people seemed to get into a bit of debt over there with the racing scence.

[CHOPPA]

[
nationals: I did it on a stock-ish 400 with good-ish suspenders. was 50kmph down at places, you cant make that up no matter how hard you try. im no flash racer but it was a bit silly. Am currently building a new bike too as close to the limit of f3 as i can afford and it wont be any less than 25k. Most others have spent close to this or more on the national level, and few have been near the front."

Yeah I was sort of thinking around the $30k mark.
It seems to be a lot of money to be outlaying. As you don't get anything back on it when you sell them. But it is an awesome sport.
How do people fund these adventures here in New Zealand?
We had a bike back in the UK and a lot of people seemed to get into a bit of debt over there with the racing scence.

Why would you want to spend so much to race F3?

[lostinflyz]

ok to clarify.

1.) Yep sketchy did win a nats race (and TT none the less) on a cheaper bike. But as he has shown he has an exceptional talent on a motorcycle, which i for one will admit i do not have and doubt i could ever get.

2.) f3 is no less expensive than supersport on a nationals scale. Its really a function of the rules as they are written and the fact your do more to a bike than in any other class. You could go compete on a properly competitive bike in supersport for about the same (prob less, depending on your preperation). But if your not a classy rider with the time to commit you will be in the arse end of the field in SS. Personally there's some guys in SS doing some classy things, which i don't think i could ever do, especially if i had to update my bike every 2-3 years. Thus the reason i elected to continue in f3 rather than jump to SS (baseless or not??)

Ozzy is correct 100%. If you get a good bike and are a very solid rider you can win in F3. But if your just alright then you need to spend the dosh, as you will be competiting against bikes in a much higher specification. Remember Sketchy is the only person i know of thats won a nationals race on a cheap(ish) bike. In my memory outside the glen/glen/terry/jason sqaure who has won a f3 race in the past 4 or so years??

You can wait for parts and grab them as they come up cheap but you may have to wait a while and at times the market can drive the price upwards (or downwards if your lucky). The 600/450 concept is good as parts and accessories are much more available than most other bikes. I quoted the price on a brand new bike (newer is always betterer).

I fund all my racing adventures out of my own pocket (somehow???). I have some people (racesupplies.co.nz) who help me out a heap making life cheaper but in the end every penny i spend is outta my pocket. Passion (idiocy) has a price

[CHOPPA]

I suppose it is a good point that you can just run the same bike for ages, how long has Terry had his SV?


I think the new superstock class would be looking like a pretty good class to do, if you got a new bike you could have it on the track for under 20k and its going to be able to run at the front for atleast 3 years. You will be able to sell it for 10k in 3 years so only just over 3k per year devaluation.

[lostinflyz]

yep choppa your dead right. it looks like there should be some good competitive riders in it too, which should help the class grow too.

its important to remember f3 is a place for the tinker'er with money. Its certainly not an easy class to get setup in and competitive in on a nationals scale, but the story is very different at a club scene.

[CHOPPA]

yep choppa your dead right. it looks like there should be some good competitive riders in it too, which should help the class grow too.

its important to remember f3 is a place for the tinker'er with money. Its certainly not an easy class to get setup in and competitive in on a nationals scale, but the story is very different at a club scene.

Well its all about fun at the end of the day! I suppose all classes cost much the same at the pointy end so i suppose you gotta pick the class that best suits ya

[nz_rider]

Some good discussion. And some good points to think about. As I say we are just trying to get a bit of a feel for the racing scene over here at present time.

Lostinflyz: You must have a fairly well paying job to be able to just fork out $25k plus that easily. Good on you mate. Or you have a nice partner who is letting you spend the savings!!! Lol.

The point about it being about fun is also very important. That is what it should be about I feel. But I understand that the money has to come into it somewhere. Although I was thinking it would be around the $30k mark that people would say I was bloody hoping that it would be quite a bit under. Although I am sure with a bit of research and shopping around you can probably do it for less. Got to be patient I guess.

[lostinflyz]

yea its all about having a good time in the end.

I wish i had a big paying job to pay my racing bills. Im ploughing pretty well my entire years salary into racing,outside rent and food. but as choppa alluded too i should be able to i should be able to keep my bike competitive-ish for a good while without that investment year on year. I don't have a missus to remind me im an idiot though so it makes it easy. but thats roughly the money it takes to play at nats level, just usually it don't come all from the one bank account.

if your willing to wait great deals on all sorts of bikes come up with time. But that means sitting on the sidelines waiting for something which i just cant do.

[nz_rider]

yea its all about having a good time in the end.

I wish i had a big paying job to pay my racing bills. Im ploughing pretty well my entire years salary into racing,outside rent and food. but as choppa alluded too i should be able to i should be able to keep my bike competitive-ish for a good while without that investment year on year. I don't have a missus to remind me im an idiot though so it makes it easy. but thats roughly the money it takes to play at nats level, just usually it don't come all from the one bank account.

if your willing to wait great deals on all sorts of bikes come up with time. But that means sitting on the sidelines waiting for something which i just cant do.


Well I must say that is dedication if you are sinking a years salary into it. You have obviously put some good thought into it then as you saved up. Good on you. Although I am not quite that ready to forgo on all other luxuries at the moment just to have the bike, although it is that bit easier with two salaries. So props to you for making it work.
The missus is fine with the bike idea, she has her requests of the new diamond ring she has had designed, but that can be factered in somewhere, down the line. Haha.

But cheers for the advice and the comments. All very helpful.

[koba]

Well I must say that is dedication if you are sinking a years salary into it. You have obviously put some good thought into it then as you saved up. Good on you. Although I am not quite that ready to forgo on all other luxuries at the moment just to have the bike, although it is that bit easier with two salaries. So props to you for making it work.
The missus is fine with the bike idea, she has her requests of the new diamond ring she has had designed, but that can be factered in somewhere, down the line. Haha.

But cheers for the advice and the comments. All very helpful.

Pro Twins is another option, It seems around ten grand gets somthing you can have a good shot on, you could spend more or less though.

[Deano]

Pro Twins is another option, It seems around ten grand gets somthing you can have a good shot on, you could spend more or less though.

Yep - my PT owes me 10K. It has nearly as much as you can do to it (bar cam timing adjustment and full race exhaust). Also including spare wheels and tyres.

At VMCC Club level, Pro Twins are always up the front of the field with the F3 bikes. (unless GW is there)

[Ivan]

Yep - my PT owes me 10K. It has nearly as much as you can do to it (bar cam timing adjustment and full race exhaust). Also including spare wheels and tyres.

At VMCC Club level, Pro Twins are always up the front of the field with the F3 bikes. (unless GW is there)


ip and also put to there are a few pro twins for sale allready speced ready to go and could be used as a f3 bike and still be competive I mean look at Geoff at Nats

[lostinflyz]

yep a pro twin is pretty close to there but even booth and co are usually at least 1-2 sec off the pace of the front of nats f3. and in finding those few seconds are what cost serious money.

[Ivan]

yep a pro twin is pretty close to there but even booth and co are usually at least 1-2 sec off the pace of the front of nats f3. and in finding those few seconds are what cost serious money.

Yeah but there is a competitve bike from the start and you could then build it up from there gixxer front heads cams etc but you have a good base line bike

[Pace Cadet]

Sorry, just deviating a little from the topic here.

Someone mentioned turning a 600 into a F3 bike...

Whats the story there? Old 400 engine in a modern frame? 600cc engine sleeved down to 450?

[xr-rider]

Sorry, just deviating a little from the topic here.

Someone mentioned turning a 600 into a F3 bike...

Whats the story there? Old 400 engine in a modern frame? 600cc engine sleeved down to 450?
there is 2 ways i have seen this done. taking a 600 and dropping a cylinder. the other is a 600 with a shorter stroke. both intresting ideas. and what ive seen very fast

[Dogboy900]

Sorry, just deviating a little from the topic here.

Someone mentioned turning a 600 into a F3 bike...

Whats the story there? Old 400 engine in a modern frame? 600cc engine sleeved down to 450?

I believe they take a 600 and "block off" one of the cylinders. Not sure of all the details but I think usually the piston is left in but the cylinder is not fuelled or firing. I am sure someone who has a clue about these things can probaly explain it better. It gives you a modern bike with readilly available spares and hot parts that meets F3 requirements. :)

[lostinflyz]

everyone so far i know has turned a modern 600 into a 450 by dropping a cylinder, but has anyone done it by short stroking a motor???

I looked at doing it but it was going to be quite expensive and i have no idea how well it'd go.

I don't know how you'd go about about sleeving one down as as the valves would strongly disagree with it.

Ivan your right, the SV has so far shown to be pretty much the best baseline f3 bike, for both club and nats.

[xr-rider]

everyone so far i know has turned a modern 600 into a 450 by dropping a cylinder, but has anyone done it by short stroking a motor???

I looked at doing it but it was going to be quite expensive and i have no idea how well it'd go.

I don't know how you'd go about about sleeving one down as as the valves would strongly disagree with it.

Ivan your right, the SV has so far shown to be pretty much the best baseline f3 bike, for both club and nats.
Yep. the latest bike rider magazine has one in it. Glen williams done the test. great read

[nz_rider]

I don't have a missus to remind me im an idiot though so it makes it easy..

Not all missus think that racing is a dumb idea. Some are rather encouraging of it all, and find it interesting. If you find a women who is prepared to travel to race events, and spend time standing in the cold and wet watching you race, and finding out about the sport and your bike, you have a keeper. And I don't think people come across many women like that in their lives. Lol.

[GSVR]

My advice would be to get a Protwin bike and race that for a while. You race against F3 and if you then feel you want to outlay alot more cash to be competitive in F3 at National level then upgrade to F3 spec depending on what that current rules are when you do.

Having said that its probably easier to be competitive in F3 than Protwin at club level. At least at the Vic Club anyway as Protwn bikes feature more at the pointy end until the end of the season when the nationals guys come out to get set up for the Nats.!

All the best F3 riders come from Central North Island LOL

[lostinflyz]

Glen williams has the aritcle on the short stroked 450 on his website. very interesting. Its cool that someone actually did it and i have to say good job. Hopefully they can sort more power.

When i looked into it i came up with a red line somewhere around the 18-19k redline mark for max mean piston speed, which would be interesting to try acheive.

[sharky]

Glen williams has the aritcle on the short stroked 450 on his website. very interesting. Its cool that someone actually did it and i have to say good job. Hopefully they can sort more power.

When i looked into it i came up with a red line somewhere around the 18-19k redline mark for max mean piston speed, which would be interesting to try acheive.


Yeah it's Greg Percival whose bike it is. That test in the article was at the end of last year. Greg has done more development now and is steadily improving it and still has a lot more to do....... will be interesting to see where he gets with it. At the last round of AMCC he was on par with a ZXR450 and FZR450 at the front. Lap times at Puke about 1m06 - Sketcky in the TT on Ozzy's one 1m03???

[froggyfrenchman]

Not all missus think that racing is a dumb idea. Some are rather encouraging of it all, and find it interesting. If you find a women who is prepared to travel to race events, and spend time standing in the cold and wet watching you race, and finding out about the sport and your bike, you have a keeper. And I don't think people come across many women like that in their lives. Lol.

My lovely wife wouldnt be seen dead standing in the cold watching.
She is more into standing around in leathers and lining up on the grid.
With two of us having the bug there is no arguments about the money involved (Pay mortgage, buy food, all remainder is for racing!)
Now thats a keeper!

[Deano]

Not all missus think that racing is a dumb idea. Some are rather encouraging of it all, and find it interesting. If you find a women who is prepared to travel to race events, and spend time standing in the cold and wet watching you race, and finding out about the sport and your bike, you have a keeper. And I don't think people come across many women like that in their lives. Lol.

My wife encouraged me to get into it. She didn't like the way my mates and I were riding on the road. She absolutely loves coming to the track to watch and enjoys the whole atmosphere.

[discodan]

If you want to get a cheapish competitive F3 bike I think a 450 is the way to go at the moment. They are fast enough in a straight line and have supersport handling.

If you want to race in pro-twins and still do well at club level F3 then get a 650, but to make a 650 competitve in F3 at National level will take big $$$ and effort.

[neil_cb125t]

If you want to get a cheapish competitive F3 bike I think a 450 is the way to go at the moment. They are fast enough in a straight line and have supersport handling.

If you want to race in pro-twins and still do well at club level F3 then get a 650, but to make a 650 competitve in F3 at National level will take big $$$ and effort.

shame no one wants to see someone get into a real F3 bike......ZXR400 - beats pro twins everynow and then... current VMCC long track record holder... and that was only the first time id been on it for 2 years.. a whole second faster than some nats pro twin champ.... geoff someone???? hehehe

Anything that you take to nats needs BIG money spent on it - i still haven't spen the same as a pro twin bike YET on mine...... i will have after the next bill come in as i rebuild it from scartch for the first time for nats.

simply put if you are new to racing F3 or pro twin are the way to go to get into it, if you have 10k and like tractor sounding things then pro twin is for you - or 3-4k will get you a 400setup and good to go. good place to start - easily sellable when or if you want to upgrade.... to what ever.

[codgyoleracer]

If this threads original thread question can be interpreted as " whats the cheapest way to build a national title winning F3 bike " , then ..........., as of current date

Cheapest: Ozzy450 Triple
Next cheapest: A cranked/striked 600/450
Next cheapest: 400/4 (450) on steroids
Next cheapest: RS250GP bike (if allowed)
Modified 250 2stroke production bike
Next cheapest: Modified SV
Next cheapest: Some sort of hybrid eng/frame combo

Now before you all jump up and down and try to reorganise the order above, keep in mind the question , and also that the base bike must be able to win a national series title & require modofications made to it so that it can beat all of the other bikes on the list.

If the question then is , which one will be fastest from the list above , then the 250 GP bike is a no brainer.

[quickbuck]

If this threads original thread question can be interpreted as " whats the cheapest way to build a national title winning F3 bike " , then ..........., as of current date

Cheapest: Ozzy450 Triple
Next cheapest: A cranked/striked 600/450
Next cheapest: 400/4 (450) on steroids
Next cheapest: RS250 (if allowed)
Modified 250 2stroke production bike
Next cheapest: Modified SV
Next cheapest: Some sort of hybrid eng/frame combo

Now before you all jump up and down and try to reorganise the order above, keep in mind the question , and also that the base bike must be able to win a national series title & require modofications made to it sio that it can beat all of the other bikes on the list.

If the question then is , which one will be fastest from the list above , then the 250 GP bike is a no brainer.

All assuming the rider is actually capable of and consistent enough to ride at National Level....
But that is a whole different question that one has to find out I guess.

[neil_cb125t]

If this threads original thread question can be interpreted as " whats the cheapest way to build a national title winning F3 bike " , then ..........., as of current date

Cheapest: Ozzy450 Triple
Next cheapest: A cranked/striked 600/450
Next cheapest: 400/4 (450) on steroids
Next cheapest: RS250 (if allowed)
Modified 250 2stroke production bike
Next cheapest: Modified SV
Next cheapest: Some sort of hybrid eng/frame combo

Now before you all jump up and down and try to reorganise the order above, keep in mind the question , and also that the base bike must be able to win a national series title & require modofications made to it sio that it can beat all of the other bikes on the list.

If the question then is , which one will be fastest from the list above , then the 250 GP bike is a no brainer.

Prob best person to listen to on this one - Glen may have some experience on the matter.....

[codgyoleracer]

All assuming the rider is actually capable of and consistent enough to ride at National Level....
But that is a whole different question that one has to find out I guess.

Agreed.
lets assume that a rider 'Joe Bloggs" is a capable fella/girl , and has the potential to win national title races in a number of classes on the right day , and can run at close to lap rec pace when pushed. So it ssafe to assume that "Joe" has plenty of experience.

So we line up all of the above list of machines in front of "Joe "

- Which one would he/she pick , as the bike that over a full series will most likely provide them with a title, given that they are all theoretically capable of winning ?

heres a clue, one stands out like a clydesdales balls on a chihuahua

[quickbuck]

heres a clue, one stands out like a clydesdales balls on a chihuahua

Hmmm, if I was as good as Joe Bloggs, I would go for the RS250 (if allowed)...

reason: It was designed for the track in the first place. There was no compromise build in for: Road, Mass Markets, Extended Service intervals... and the list goes on, but I think i have made enough points.

All the rest are Road bikes that have been tinkered with to varying degrees.

Do i get a chocolate fish? Or, a re-alignment of thoughts? ;)

EDIT (3 Hours later): Just read the thread about the proposed rule changes..... so I see where you are comming from Glen.

[Billy]

Agreed.
lets assume that a rider 'Joe Bloggs" is a capable fella/girl , and has the potential to win national title races in a number of classes on the right day , and can run at close to lap rec pace when pushed. So it ssafe to assume that "Joe" has plenty of experience.

So we line up all of the above list of machines in front of "Joe "

- Which one would he/she pick , as the bike that over a full series will most likely provide them with a title, given that they are all theoretically capable of winning ?

heres a clue, one stands out like a clydesdales balls on a chihuahua

Aaaaah!But what if your Chihuahua and his horselike testies had a minimum weight restriction of 125kgs as I have suggested!!!

What then??and how do you know how big a Clydesdales balls are you PERVERT

[codgyoleracer]

Aaaaah!But what if your Chihuahua and his horselike testies had a minimum weight restriction of 125kgs as I have suggested!!!

What then??and how do you know how big a Clydesdales balls are you PERVERT

You trying to tell me you dont look when horses drop there fith leg put Billy ......... :-)

[RG Racer 123]

Hi there. I have a 2002 SV 650 Pro Twin, it is a waste of top in pro twin because it is the carbed model SV and is alot slower than a fuel injected model. I also have a 2007 SV 650 which i am turning into a Pro Twin. Being fuel injected it comes standard alot quicker than the carbed model, and then there is more you can do to a fuel injected model i.e power commander. I will be building this to the highest spec for Pro-Twin. I also have a 2007 Yamaha R6 done 2000km which i am currentley having turned into a 450 F3 bike.
After the conversion the R6/450 will owe me $7500 including buying the bike and i can race it and be competitve in F3. The top spec Protwin when finished will owe me $12000+ .
if you are wanting to be competitve in F3 i would recomend the 450, comes from the factory as almost a race bike. An SV is just a commuting bike. to make an SV handle like a 600/450 you would need to build a custom frame like Glen Williams, something i don't think all of us can afford

[quickbuck]

An SV is just a commuting bike. to make an SV handle like a 600/450 you would need to build a custom frame like Glen Williams, something i don't think all of us can afford

That would be why he put it at #7, and last on his own list.... ;)

[Mental Trousers]

My 450 cost me less than $4000 (not counting the beer that went into building the motor) with a pile of spares, including a spare petrol tank. I have no idea if it's competitive or not in F3 as I've never raced in that class, but I can tell you that I'll be saving a truck load of cash because the brakes are already fantastic (braided lines are standard), I haven't needed to do anything to the suspension (switching to full Ohlins would get better tyre life but the Kayaba front and rear tweaked are easily up to the job) etc. It's definitely a cheap way to get on track (provided you know someone who isn't a numb nuts when it comes to bolting engines together).