Where is biking going, is the direction what we are prepared to live with?

[Conquiztador]

Things are changing. Bikes are changing. Rules are changing. The ones who ride are changing.

If we are looking to become mainstream, more accepted by society, then all is fine. Bikes are less noisy. They use less fuel. They pollute less. Noisy 500cc+ 2 stroke bikes are out. And 1500cc+ bikes sound like a Ford Fiesta (I remember first time I did IRL see the new Triump Rocket. There was 3 of them. I waited for ages for the owners to come out and start them so I could hear the mighty roar! When they started the beasts and took off in a "pffffttttt" I could not believe it!)

I am old skool. Black leathers and sunnies. Ride rain or shine when I want to. Can't be bothered with a bunch of high tech gear. Have a long oil skin as rain gear.

But I digress. Stray even...

Now electric bikes are coming out. 150km's radius. Who would ride only 150k's? And on something that has no sound?

I sit here with my gray hair, my JD and my Biggles goggles and recon that todays riders are missing the point. Group rides in dayglow below speed limit is not what it was about.

I remember reading a Sci Fi story some years ago about a group of bikers that had removed them self from society and the rules. They rode noisy smoking bikes. No dayglow. They rode because they wanted to, because that was their life. They were not dangerous to them selves or anyone else. But society and the rules deemed their look at things unacceptable. And so they were hunted.

At times I feel that this is what is happening. The ones of us who do not accept the rules that are bestowed up on us are getting labelled. We need to be erased. Taken out of the equation. Not because we are dangerous on the road. But because we do not fit in anymore.

At times I hate it all. The riding around making sure I follow all rules: lights on, speed limits, distance, helmets, max dB, numberplate in a specific way...

But I have no say. Being an individual is so old fashion. Like me I suppose.

[SMOKEU]

We are living in an ever increasing nanny state; the government is forcing the police to reach certain "performance targets", and things will be getting worse for us on a yearly basis. Higher ACC levies, and a more aggressive (traffic) police presence combined with cagers who are becoming even stupider by the day will make riding more expensive and dangerous.

[CookMySock]

Go do as you choose. No one is forcing you to do anything - and that will never change.


Steve

[mattian]

The times are a changing all the time. You can either adapt, and go with the flow or, you can reminesce, about days gone by and "how it used to be"
This is why the kiwibiker website is such a great tool for bikers of every experience level and generation. Because we can all come togehter and share our wisdom and expertise.
For newbies this is invaluable. For alot of you old timers, I expect you get quite bored and a little cynical sometimes.

[Motu]

I don't know where it's going,and don't really care,just so long as I can ride sometimes.

It's a bit like music (going into a metaphor here,bail out when you can) in that it has progressed over the decades.You can come into it anytime and enjoy what's happening for that time period,and then progress along with it from there.Or you might enjoy that particular genre so much that you just stay there....or maybe you move around experimenting and dabbling in different genre as the mood takes you.

There's still a lot more I want to do with bikes,so I'll just plod along as time and money permits.

[Headbanger]

I don't know where it's going,and don't really care,just so long as I can ride sometimes.

It's a bit like music (going into a metaphor here,bail out when you can) in that it has progressed over the decades.You can come into it anytime and enjoy what's happening for that time period,and then progress along with it from there.Or you might enjoy that particular genre so much that you just stay there....or maybe you move around experimenting and dabbling in different genre as the mood takes you.

There's still a lot more I want to do with bikes,so I'll just plod along as time and money permits.



Man........that is deep.

[Hitcher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

[Ixion]

Wherever its going I'm going the other way. I've always travelled a different road.

[rainman]

Although sometimes "fuck the rules" doesn't work out too well: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/06/06/1248097def65 :)

[Motu]

Man........that is deep.

You were told to bail out - sucker.

[Headbanger]

You were told to bail out - sucker.

But....I liked it.

[Virago]

We must all conform to the Biker Code, which is to be non-conformist.

Oh, wait...

[dogsnbikes]

Things are changing. Bikes are changing. Rules are changing. The ones who ride are changing.

But Freedom never will thats what I get from my bikes,the sound they produce informs me of there statis and is my music on a ride its like a 2wheeled IPOD in stereo

still you get some who are as individual as thier bikes,other's are as individual as the group they ride with or who ever thier chossen GP/superbike superstar Racer is .....
where-ever they fine thier own idividuality it still defines them as biker's through the eye's of the people wished for that same identity and same freedrom


regardlees wether I'm a loner (most of the time) out on the road or an occassion group (aka ashhusrts ride) I'm still free and that is something I will never loose regardless of what changes are happening around me

[Urano]

Bikes are less noisy. They use less fuel. They pollute less.

well... are harleys forbidden in nz? :D :D
no seriously... about the less pollution, it's still debated. a french study seems to demonstrate that on the average a bike pollute MORE than a car, considering the exhaust emissions. but on a city trip, because of various reasons (time of trip, less time to search for a park, less time at lights...) they finally pollute less than a car. on country trips the emissions are similar.
as for the fuel, evenly, it's not so clear: my ninja 650r which was a very frugal bike, permitted me to travel at 20-24 km per liter, but it was a 650. consider that my wife's 1400 diesel goes from 18 to 20 km per liter. gettin even the displacement it's not so on the bike side...


now, the point of your thought...
rules.
rules are almost never for "us", are quite always for "the others", i mean, for bad things we can do to others.
light, speed limits, distance...
the main problem is that when driving (or riding) was a very complicated and expensive thing, the ones capable to do that were enough skilled to understand where slow down and where to speed.
now we have too many people on the road, too many people on the world, and the average of men is just like that: "average", middle.
so maybe you can understand that speeding before a hill or a turn is not a good idea, but the one behind you thinks "WTF, i've got a bmw X5, it's big, it's fast, fuck the world!" and kills a mother with the baby just turned the corner...
rules are necessary because people are stupid. because if you permit 10 there is always someone that goes 12. and if you say "well, let's permit 12, is not a big difference" there will be people that will go 15.
and the helmet or the seat belts? well, if you're in the us, and you'll pay for your hospital... it's your business. but in italy (donno in nz) if someone is stupid and don't lock the helmet and remains on a wheelchair, i'll have to pay for his invalidity retirement for the rest of his life, and the medicals, and the hospital...

so, it's sad, but is always been this way: if one make a stupid thing all the team will be punished.
rules are made beacuse there are stupid persons, and we all have to pay for them.

you in nz have a big advantage on this: you are few.

[Conquiztador]

But....I liked it.

Me too! Not enough of deep shit anymore! I remember when... Hmmm, maybe another time. ;)

[Cayman911]

its not just the bikers, and its not which way we are heading, its which way we are being dragged by the hippies

[Katman]

The internal combustion engine has been living on borrowed time for a while now. If electric motors are the way of the future we can only hope that there are still two wheeled vehicles around to be powered by them.

The survival of Motorcycling will be determined by far greater issues than whether you get to continue enjoying your motorcycle's exhaust note.

[Paul in NZ]

Of course its changing - change is natures usual state of being. I'd be more worried if it was not changing.

The problem is - very often, once you take something up you flounder about until you reach your ideal comfort zone and then you get a bit miffed to find the thing keeps changing and you get left behind in your time warp... alone.... gulp! Pretty soon you become irrelevant to the topic and you start asking daft questions regarding the course the thing is taking yet knowing full well you no longer capable of influencing it.. In short, you are irrelevant.

On the up side - once you achieve this state of non relevance the world is your oyster and you can pick and choose at will... its wonderful ;-)

[McWild]

Or perhaps today's young, sportsbike generation doesn't really give a shit about being considered badass and manly, and ride "in dayglow group rides below the speed limit" because they are riding for THEMSELVES and not to the old stereotype that some members of the older generation can't seem to remove from their heads.

Basically the only purpose this thread serves is to come out and say "Yadda yadda all you young'uns are pussies who don't care about biking the way I do, they aren't INDIVIDUAL like I am". And what a load of bollocks. If you need to buy bikes and dress a certain way in order to feel like an individual, I feel sorry for you.


But because we do not fit in anymore.

Being an individual is so old fashion. Like me I suppose.

What.

[Katman]

Wherever its going I'm going the other way. I've always travelled a different road.

Hence my concern of you being at the forefront of an organisation entrusted with the future development and very survival of motorcycling.

[Conquiztador]

Or perhaps today's young, sportsbike generation doesn't really give a shit about being considered badass and manly, and ride "in dayglow group rides below the speed limit" because they are riding for THEMSELVES and not to the old stereotype that some members of the older generation can't seem to remove from their heads.

Basically the only purpose this thread serves is to come out and say "Yadda yadda all you young'uns are pussies who don't care about biking the way I do, they aren't INDIVIDUAL like I am". And what a load of bollocks. If you need to buy bikes and dress a certain way in order to feel like an individual, I feel sorry for you.




What.

Not my point at all. I try to clarify: Laws and rules are put in place all around us. Our individuality is being squashed, the area we can move in is getting smaller by the day. Soon there is no option but to either follow all the rules or opt out. Or the third option: rebel and do what you want to and then suffer the concequences.

When did we become a mass that were not able to make right decisions anymore without it all being in print and policed? Here I was in the belief that the human race was becoming more intelligent and educated. But somehow it does not match with what is happening. New rules and regulations are passed on regular basis. And for what reason? To save us from our selves? I dont need someone else to save me. I have done that by my self all my life successfully.

Cities in Europe are now removing roadsigns, crossings, sidewalks and the accident rates are dropping at an amazing rate. Why? Because suddenly people have to once again take responsibility of their decisions, be more alert and considerate to each others.

[Katman]

It has been the lack of regard for anything that resembles a law shown by a small number that has resulted in more laws being imposed upon the many.

[Conquiztador]

It has been the lack of regard for anything that resembles a law shown by a small number that has resulted in more laws being imposed upon the many.

No disrespect at all Katman. I know this is your view and you will keep on pushing this message until the end. But I tend to disagree. The ones you are referring to could not give a shit re any new rules. They did not care re the old ones so why would they give a shit re the new ones? Nothing else is achieved than making more of us lawbreakers as new laws are passed. It will all become like Rugby Union. So many rules that nobody can keep up.

[Katman]

No disrespect at all Katman. I know this is your view and you will keep on pushing this message until the end. But I tend to disagree. The ones you are referring to could not give a shit re any new rules. They did not care re the old ones so why would they give a shit re the new ones? Nothing else is achieved than making more of us lawbreakers as new laws are passed. It will all become like Rugby Union. So many rules that nobody can keep up.

I never said that the people who disregarded the old rules would suddenly obey the new ones. I'm merely pointing out who we have to thank for the current crop of rules.

[McWild]

When did we become a mass that were not able to make right decisions anymore without it all being in print and policed? Here I was in the belief that the human race was becoming more intelligent and educated. But somehow it does not match with what is happening. New rules and regulations are passed on regular basis. And for what reason? To save us from our selves? I dont need someone else to save me. I have done that by my self all my life successfully.



Because there are stupid people out there. A lot of them. And living in a functional society requires catering for all comers. A beaucracy is the most simple and effective way to maintain such a society, and again I feel that it's immature to judge one's individuality on materialistic ideals.
It's very easy to say let natural selection sort them out, or that you can fend for yourself and have always done so but the reality is that if you could truly and completely fend for yourself and were a fan of Darwinism then you'd move to somewhere like Somalia. If you want to enjoy the luxuries of money and social security then you have to pay the price of having certain restricitions imposed on your freedom. I think people have too much of a sense of entitlement at the moment, but you can't have everything.

Total and complete freedom can never work. There is a reason why social hierarchy keeps returning to human society, it's because it works.

And it woud be interesting if you could provide a link to your comment on "cities in Europe".

[Blinkwing]

well... are harleys forbidden in nz? :D :D
no seriously... about the less pollution, it's still debated. a french study seems to demonstrate that on the average a bike pollute MORE than a car, considering the exhaust emissions. but on a city trip, because of various reasons (time of trip, less time to search for a park, less time at lights...) they finally pollute less than a car. on country trips the emissions are similar.

I wonder if that study took into account the fact that emissions technology in motorbikes is still catching up to the tech in cars.

[McWild]

Although I would like to agree that the latest bikes have absolutely nothing on the bikes of old. Harleys should have kick starts. In fact so should sportsbikes.

[Conquiztador]

And it woud be interesting if you could provide a link to your comment on "cities in Europe".

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2143663,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/0331/What-happens-when-you-remove-all-traffic-signs-A-German-town-finds-out

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-2068722.html

[Gibbo89]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2143663,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/0331/What-happens-when-you-remove-all-traffic-signs-A-German-town-finds-out

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-2068722.html

the idea is good, but you can't assume it will work in every place where there are traffic lights? i.e rush hour in the main centres in NZ. though i'm not doubting it wouldn't work in certain areas.

although the europeans are always trying new ideas, they seem pretty flexible. i could see a lot of kiwis hating on the idea of no more traffic lights.

[McWild]

That's really cool, although for some reason I have trouble imagining it working in New Zealand - not that it couldn't at all, but I don't think a lot of New Zealand drivers, particularly young drivers, have the experience, education, or maturity to safely handle themselves. Although on the flipside it could thus enforce a stricter licence acquiring process. Which would be good in the current road system anyway.

Although I don't see any connection between road signs and individuality. Yes it encourages thinking before doing, but hopefully most of us are doing that anyway. Removal of road signs also doesn't imply removal of law. All it would do is make the law's presence less noticeable. France, for example has some of the strictest highway patrol and ticketing procedures in the world. You speed there, you are f'd. I will look for a link if you want me too.

Your main point was the direction that biking is heading in, and I think that just because the concept of individuality has changed, doesn't mean that it has disappeared altogether. If anything, more laws and restrictions on motorcycling and motorcycles would surely mean that only the truly dedicated would remain passionate about them? I think perhaps that biking is more special now than ever for the young generation.
From the sound of it (I wasn't alive so I can't comment), riding back in its heyday in New Zealand, as in 70s 80s, was so popular because bikes were what young people could afford, it was the easiest most acquirable and socially popular mode of transport. Now I estimate the amount of bikes that turn up to uni, at Canterbury, in all weathers day in day out to be less than 30 across campus. Maybe even less than 20.
So for the ones who are riding it's more individual than ever.

I don't think it's so much the regulations and restrictions preventing young people from getting into bikes, I think it's more the fact that cheap, often fast cars are just more popular.

[hayd3n]

iKqpvriKZuA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKqpvriKZuA

[AD345]

Meh

Little changes except perception. It has been just under 30 years since I started riding and there's nothing I did then that I can't do now. I do do somethings differently but that is only (not mostly - ONLY) because I'm a different rider.

My days of blatting hither and yon on a 750 Katana (my first real bike) have become days of blatting hither and yon on a 1600cc cruiser.

I get the same, perhaps even more, enjoyment as I did then. I spend the same amount of time worrying about the direction of motorcycling as I did then, which is none.

The sky is not falling

[Ocean1]

Cities in Europe are now removing roadsigns, crossings, sidewalks and the accident rates are dropping at an amazing rate. Why? Because suddenly people have to once again take responsibility of their decisions, be more alert and considerate to each others.

References?

Edit: ah, I see, cheers.

[Swoop]

I am old skool. Black leathers and sunnies. Ride rain or shine when I want to. Can't be bothered with a bunch of high tech gear. Have a long oil skin as rain gear.

But I digress. Stray even...
The problem with modern bikers' is that too many sit down to piss.

It has been the lack of regard for anything that resembles a law shown by a small number that has resulted in more laws being imposed upon the many.
So, have you berrated the motorcycle gangs' like Highway 61, Mongrel Mob, Black Power, etc, about their behaviour on the roads?

[Dare]

Also from Europe: shared space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space (Auckland council is considering this)
What is this? Giving drivers to use their actual brains? IT CAN'T BE DONE!

Meanwhile in a country where the opposite is happening... http://gizmodo.com/5550982/woman-suing-google-over-walking-directions-that-got-her-hit-by-a-car

I know where I would rather live.

[avgas]

Yep its like I have always said.
"......finally you place the wedding ring over the piston, the wedding rings purpose is to slow the bike down so much that you can't keep the bike and end up buying a car........"
Its about time New Zealand got a haircut and got real job.

Now all NZ has to wait for it to grow old and die.

[Kickaha]

So, have you berrated the motorcycle gangs' like Highway 61, Mongrel Mob, Black Power, etc, about their behaviour on the roads?

Whens the last time you saw any of them on the roads?

[Katman]

And since when were the Mongrel Mob and Black Power motorcycle gangs?

:scratch:

[Maha]

And since when were the Mongrel Mob and Black Power motorcycle gangs?

:scratch:

They used to be way back when didnt they?
Before they went all girly and opted for cars.
I remember as a kid, seeing bikies being escorted by police between Dannevirke and Napier, bitches on the back holding the beer crates.
Fuck knows which gang they were.

[Swoop]

And since when were the Mongrel Mob and Black Power motorcycle gangs?

:scratch:
So you are not telling them to be "reponsible road users" or "responsible motorcyclists'" then?

[Kickaha]

They used to be way back when didnt they?


No they didn't

[slofox]

Meh

Little changes except perception. It has been just under 30 years since I started riding and there's nothing I did then that I can't do now. I do do somethings differently but that is only (not mostly - ONLY) because I'm a different rider.

My days of blatting hither and yon on a 750 Katana (my first real bike) have become days of blatting hither and yon on a 1600cc cruiser.

I get the same, perhaps even more, enjoyment as I did then. I spend the same amount of time worrying about the direction of motorcycling as I did then, which is none.

The sky is not falling

I agree.

42 years after I first got a bike I enjoy it as much as ever I did. I can still do now all that I did then. Actually, I can do more because the technology is soooo much better than way back then.

Like AD345, I don't fret. At all.

[Conquiztador]

I agree.

42 years after I first got a bike I enjoy it as much as ever I did. I can still do now all that I did then. Actually, I can do more because the technology is soooo much better than way back then.

Like AD345, I don't fret. At all.

Interesting view. And at the same time I have on KB stated that when petrol becomes $10/litre, when rego is $2K/year I will still ride. As only the dedicated will be on the roads there will be so much more space.

I still enjoy the riding as much as ever. It is all the stuff around the riding that gets to me at times. I just hate when a bit here and a bit there is chipped away. And it is done in such way that most do not even notice. Slowly we are herded in to a confinment and only when the gate closes will people wake up. But it will be too late.

[EJK]

Introducing a new 8 stroke 3000cc bike soon maybe?

[Katman]

I still enjoy the riding as much as ever. It is all the stuff around the riding that gets to me at times. I just hate when a bit here and a bit there is chipped away. And it is done in such way that most do not even notice. Slowly we are herded in to a confinment and only when the gate closes will people wake up. But it will be too late.

We've whined for so long that our misfortunes are everyone elses fault (and been led by an organisation intent on nurturing that belief) that the government have decided to step in and save us from ourselves.

Mark my words - the next step will be compulsory flouro vests.

We need to lose the victim mentality and start taking responsibility for our own well-being.

[Conquiztador]

Mark my words - the next step will be compulsory flouro vests.


Only after cars have compulsory lights on and only day-glow paintjobs are allowed on all cages.

[Spearfish]

Only after cars have compulsory lights on and only day-glow paintjobs are allowed on all cages.

They have sort of started, look at all the ads about side airbags etc, technology replacing skill or even worse, responsibility.

In time I see bikes as being seen as so inherently dangerous to the point the cage fleet, with every conceivable safety device, legally/socially has a diminished responsibility.

Say: If airbags (and every other skill replacing device) become compulsory making cages safe as brick shyt houses (but the operator as safe as a shyt brick house) then if a cage knocks off a rider causing injury the injury component becomes the bikers choice not the cagers and not an aggravating component to the crime.
It think that mentality is fairly deeply entrenched already look at how ACC provide solutions and a certain police sarge admitted being defeated by the shyt driving standard/skill level that he suggested the cage driving so so bad governed scooters are unsafe.
I know many here disregard mopeds/scooters and like the police sarge see them as unsafe so their methodology is working well, small steps make it all easy to make something normal.
could bikes capable of over 200kph be seen as unsafe?
will everything get governors one day or certain class of bikes be unregistrable for the road as track only rides?
Katman can sound like he enjoys using vice-grips on nerve endings but unless biking backs up its claims and stance as the perpetual victim of circumstances or more simply grows up and stops fucking it up, we wont have any real control where biking is going.
Katman will say, probably with great regret, "I TOLD YOU SO".

[slofox]

Interesting view. And at the same time I have on KB stated that when petrol becomes $10/litre, when rego is $2K/year I will still ride. As only the dedicated will be on the roads there will be so much more space.

I still enjoy the riding as much as ever. It is all the stuff around the riding that gets to me at times. I just hate when a bit here and a bit there is chipped away. And it is done in such way that most do not even notice. Slowly we are herded in to a confinment and only when the gate closes will people wake up. But it will be too late.

Riding is my therapy. It's how I get away from the loony world and become sane..(some might argue it's the other way round but then they're just bastards anyway...)

There's nothing quite like winding into a corner, squeezing the throttle open a smidgen and feeling the horses surge forward - that's existence for me. I don't care if I have to wear ATGATT - I'd do that anyway. Fluro vests? I daresay that once I had it on I wouldn't notice any more. Even if I do think they suck at the moment. But nothing will stop me experiencing that moment of "flight" - that little piece of existence where the motion becomes the world. That's what I ride for. The rest I don't notice.

[R-Soul]

Things are changing. Bikes are changing. Rules are changing. The ones who ride are changing.

If we are looking to become mainstream, more accepted by society, then all is fine. Bikes are less noisy. They use less fuel. They pollute less. Noisy 500cc+ 2 stroke bikes are out. And 1500cc+ bikes sound like a Ford Fiesta (I remember first time I did IRL see the new Triump Rocket. There was 3 of them. I waited for ages for the owners to come out and start them so I could hear the mighty roar! When they started the beasts and took off in a "pffffttttt" I could not believe it!)

I am old skool. Black leathers and sunnies. Ride rain or shine when I want to. Can't be bothered with a bunch of high tech gear. Have a long oil skin as rain gear.

But I digress. Stray even...

Now electric bikes are coming out. 150km's radius. Who would ride only 150k's? And on something that has no sound?

I sit here with my gray hair, my JD and my Biggles goggles and recon that todays riders are missing the point. Group rides in dayglow below speed limit is not what it was about.

I remember reading a Sci Fi story some years ago about a group of bikers that had removed them self from society and the rules. They rode noisy smoking bikes. No dayglow. They rode because they wanted to, because that was their life. They were not dangerous to them selves or anyone else. But society and the rules deemed their look at things unacceptable. And so they were hunted.

At times I feel that this is what is happening. The ones of us who do not accept the rules that are bestowed up on us are getting labelled. We need to be erased. Taken out of the equation. Not because we are dangerous on the road. But because we do not fit in anymore.

At times I hate it all. The riding around making sure I follow all rules: lights on, speed limits, distance, helmets, max dB, numberplate in a specific way...

But I have no say. Being an individual is so old fashion. Like me I suppose.

Are you a fashionista or a rider?

FFS we all love riding. Some of us just have family to live for. Excuse us for trying NOT to be statistic...

What part of riding is it that you like? The sheer power and feel of the bike, and the zensualness of the twisties when taken in just the right way? The idea of us being brotherhood united in our passions for riding? These appeal to me.

Or the wild west image of bikers, and the idea of us being brotherhood united in our passions for posing? I dont care for the last one. I do my own thing and let others pose as much as they want.

[Katman]

Or the wild west image of bikers, and the idea of us being brotherhood united in our passions for posing? I dont care for the last one. I do my own thing and let others pose as much as they want.

http://lamoraenterprises.com/_wizardimages/fonzie.jpg

[Conquiztador]

Are you a fashionista or a rider?

FFS we all love riding. Some of us just have family to live for. Excuse us for trying NOT to be statistic...

What part of riding is it that you like? The sheer power and feel of the bike, and the zensualness of the twisties when taken in just the right way? The idea of us being brotherhood united in our passions for riding? These appeal to me.

Or the wild west image of bikers, and the idea of us being brotherhood united in our passions for posing? I dont care for the last one. I do my own thing and let others pose as much as they want.

At times it can be hard to get across what one is talking about in writing on a message board. So I forgive you. ;) I thought I made sense. Katman, who is no fan of mine, understood and added his bit that I take as an approval of my statement.

But for you:
I ride because I enjoy riding. I care not re fashion statements, bling (even if I have been known to have bikes in shows), conforming to anything. For me it is a very selfish experience. I only ride because it makes me feel good. I could not care less what my riding does to others, or what others feel when riding.

My point was simply that I can feel the walls closing in on bikers. Bit by bit what we take for granted is chipped away. Often in such small chips that we dont even notice. We will all one day wake up and say: Shit, what happened, how did it ever come to this? If it stops at day glow vests and restrictors we can probably count our self lucky. But I have a suspicion that it will not stop there; I can see roads that do not allow motorbikes, no pillions allowed, huge insurance fees if we do not adhere to all regulations. Even to a stage where if we did not have a reflex on our wheel the insurance is void. I can se only factory bikes allowed (no individuality and customising. If you think this can not happen, Germany already has this in place). I can se no overtaking allowed when on bikes, yearly training to be allowed to ride, dayglow bikles only, cc restrictions (I expect 650cc), bikes that do not have latest brakes and bits not being allowed. I can also see each bike equipped with a chip that police can read to see if we did speed and follow by satellite to figure out where we been.

Am I dreaming? Nightmares these are. But sadly I think it is all coming just a question of when.

[Katman]

I could not care less what my riding does to others

Unfortunately, that's precisely the attitude that has brought us to where we are now.

[Berries]

My point was simply that I can feel the walls closing in on bikers. Bit by bit what we take for granted is chipped away. Often in such small chips that we dont even notice.
You listed lights on and helmets in your OP. All the other stuff like speed limits and dB levels affect all road users. Apart from the ACC issue what has been chipped away ? I only ask because Katman keeps saying the end is nigh and yet I can’t see it.

[Katman]

You listed lights on and helmets in your OP. All the other stuff like speed limits and dB levels affect all road users. Apart from the ACC issue what has been chipped away ? I only ask because Katman keeps saying the end is nigh and yet I can’t see it.

Do you have no imagination whatsoever?

Compulsory hi-viz vests?
Cap on horsepower?
Cap on cc rating?
Further registration increases?
Draconian impounding laws?

For anyone who says it could never happen - ask yourself who there's more of. Smokers or motorcyclists?

[crystalball]

biking is going towards 2000cc gliding above the ground with no wheels.

[oldrider]

Do you have no imagination whatsoever?

Compulsory hi-viz vests?
Cap on horsepower?
Cap on cc rating?
Further registration increases?
Draconian impounding laws?

For anyone who says it could never happen - ask yourself who there's more of. Smokers or motorcyclists?

You make me realise that I am getting toward the end of my natural life cycle Katman!

Three score years and ten! (plus 10% for neatness)

Posts like yours above make me appreciate that my generation, (in this country) have had the best that life could ever have offered anyone!

When I finally go I shall be wearing the biggest grin that has ever graced a human face!

Thank you for reminding me how lucky we have been! :banana:

Sorry about the mess we have left for all you guy's and guyesse's that are following behind! :sick:

I promise to mention your plight to the big fella, during my welcoming interview! :yes: Well.......yeah right! :shifty: If you know what I mean! :whistle:

[Berries]

Do you have no imagination whatsoever?

Compulsory hi-viz vests?
Cap on horsepower?
Cap on cc rating?
Further registration increases?
Draconian impounding laws?
I've got imagination and can come up with lots of possible examples like you have there - no pillions, leg protectors, daytime use only, neck braces, air suits, strobe light on your head etc etc. I was asking what else had been done that was chipping away at riding a motorbike. All the rest is just crystal ball gazing (no pun intended). The only place I have heard about compulsory ATGATT and hi-viz is on KB. That's one way of shitting in your own nest I suppose.

[Berries]

When I finally go I shall be wearing the biggest grin that has ever graced a human face!
And a hi-viz ?

[Katman]

I've got imagination and can come up with lots of possible examples like you have there - no pillions, leg protectors, daytime use only, neck braces, air suits, strobe light on your head etc etc. I was asking what else hadbeen done that was chipping away at riding a motorbike. All the rest is just crystal ball gazing. The only place I have heard about compulsory ATGATT and hi-viz is on KB. That's one way of shitting in your own nest I suppose.

Yeah, it's a bit hard to see what's happening around you when your head's firmly wedged up your arse.

[Berries]

Lucky helmets are compulsory then eh ?

[R-Soul]

At times it can be hard to get across what one is talking about in writing on a message board. So I forgive you. ;) I thought I made sense. Katman, who is no fan of mine, understood and added his bit that I take as an approval of my statement.

But for you:
I ride because I enjoy riding. I care not re fashion statements, bling (even if I have been known to have bikes in shows), conforming to anything. For me it is a very selfish experience. I only ride because it makes me feel good. I could not care less what my riding does to others, or what others feel when riding.

My point was simply that I can feel the walls closing in on bikers. Bit by bit what we take for granted is chipped away. Often in such small chips that we dont even notice. We will all one day wake up and say: Shit, what happened, how did it ever come to this? If it stops at day glow vests and restrictors we can probably count our self lucky. But I have a suspicion that it will not stop there; I can see roads that do not allow motorbikes, no pillions allowed, huge insurance fees if we do not adhere to all regulations. Even to a stage where if we did not have a reflex on our wheel the insurance is void. I can se only factory bikes allowed (no individuality and customising. If you think this can not happen, Germany already has this in place). I can se no overtaking allowed when on bikes, yearly training to be allowed to ride, dayglow bikles only, cc restrictions (I expect 650cc), bikes that do not have latest brakes and bits not being allowed. I can also see each bike equipped with a chip that police can read to see if we did speed and follow by satellite to figure out where we been.

Am I dreaming? Nightmares these are. But sadly I think it is all coming just a question of when.

OK I got you this time - sometimes its duifficult getting feelings across in black and white. So your main concern is how personal liberties and individual freedom of choice are being eroded. I agree. Sadly this is not just happening in motorbikes. It is happening in society in general. Look at the way cars are going too. Electronic sensors that can detect roads and steer for you, cars that network with each other and latch onto the back of each other electronically so that following speeds are safely maintaned, sensors for auto braking to maintain following distance, acohol breath detctors, eye tiredness detectors, etc.

When cars are viewed as a networked arrangement of vehicles that interact electronically with each other to get to the place they are going in the most efficient and safe manner, and even interact with traffic lights to maximise traffic flow, then you can see how freedom of car driving will be restricted. Probably much safer and quicker and less jams, but also much more restricted. The only freedom of choice left is what color the car is, and where you are going.

I guess when you chuck a 200bhp cruise missile with a potentially inexperienced rider and a devil may care attitude in to this mix, we become a bit like a "turd in the drinking water" to the law...

Vehicles (and esp. bikes) by their very nature are unsafe. There has to be a balance between freedom and safety. But this balance is affected by incidents. For example I might be a lot more open to networked traffic if my children were involved in a car accident due to reckless driving. The balance is affected when riders do stupid things on the roads that should only be done on tracks, and the government has to cough up for it.

Thats why riders have to act like adults in order to not be treated like children.

[Spearfish]

OK I got you this time - sometimes its duifficult getting feelings across in black and white. So your main concern is how personal liberties and individual freedom of choice are being eroded. I agree. Sadly this is not just happening in motorbikes. It is happening in society in general. Look at the way cars are going too. Electronic sensors that can detect roads and steer for you, cars that network with each other and latch onto the back of each other electronically so that following speeds are safely maintaned, sensors for auto braking to maintain following distance, acohol breath detctors, eye tiredness detectors, etc.

When cars are viewed as a networked arrangement of vehicles that interact electronically with each other to get to the place they are going in the most efficient and safe manner, and even interact with traffic lights to maximise traffic flow, then you can see how freedom of car driving will be restricted. Probably much safer and quicker and less jams, but also much more restricted. The only freedom of choice left is what color the car is, and where you are going.

I guess when you chuck a 200bhp cruise missile with a potentially inexperienced rider and a devil may care attitude in to this mix, we become a bit like a "turd in the drinking water" to the law...

Vehicles (and esp. bikes) by their very nature are unsafe. There has to be a balance between freedom and safety. But this balance is affected by incidents. For example I might be a lot more open to networked traffic if my children were involved in a car accident due to reckless driving. The balance is affected when riders do stupid things on the roads that should only be done on tracks, and the government has to cough up for it.

Thats why riders have to act like adults in order to not be treated like children.

You didn't get that across to badly.
I'm not sure I "want" to agree bikes are inherently dangerous, it just depends on what the benchmark is, but I'm not sure that statement isn't just me not wanting to agree?
I'm a commuter not a weekend Rossie so maybe I see biking differently through a jaded visor, but to be honest I find commuting on a bike has more personal hardship that risk eg: getting gear on and off each end, weather etc, and being forced to get on the job of riding and leaving job shyt behind.(not that the last one is bad)

[R-Soul]

You didn't get that across to badly.
I'm not sure I "want" to agree bikes are inherently dangerous, it just depends on what the benchmark is, but I'm not sure that statement isn't just me not wanting to agree?


I am a commuter too- I know what you mean- but its worth it anyday. So far...
I guess danger is relative. When you think about it, moving at anything above sprinting speed with minimal protection is pretty dangerous,, purely because lots of things can go wrong, and the human body is not adapted for impacts at those speeds.

Lets face it, life is relatively a bit more risky when you dont drag a steel cage and four armchairs around with you...

Interestingly enough, a cheetah would probably not find it that dangerous as they run at 120km/h and jump into gazelles backs, and roll with them as part of a days work of feeding themselves. Although if they hit a lamp post... (a bit off topic I know, but the concept caught my imagination).

As an aside, why DONT some sports bikes come out with a (small) steel cage and lots of air bags within them?

[Gibbo89]

i don't think they would be called 'sports' bikes after that modification.

[pritch]

Group rides in dayglow below speed limit is not what it was about.



As far as I know it still isn't.

Is it? :whistle:

[R-Soul]

i don't think they would be called 'sports' bikes after that modification.

Fair enough - what if it was a light, sexy cage?

[Conquiztador]

Fair enough - what if it was a light, sexy cage?

Like this you mean...

http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/883707/8360309/0/1237711042/Elegant_150cc_Scooter_With_Roof.jpg

[R-Soul]

Like this you mean...

http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/883707/8360309/0/1237711042/Elegant_150cc_Scooter_With_Roof.jpg

Nope.
Which part of "light and sexy" didn't you understand?

[Conquiztador]

Nope.
Which part of "light and sexy" didn't you understand?

Well... I have no idea how a light and sexy cage looks like. In fact, I can not think of once I have seen a cage and it had made my willy stand.

[avgas]

I blame the (insert name here) party!!!!
Bunch of fucking losers.
I wish they would fuck off and die.

[R-Soul]

Well... I have no idea how a light and sexy cage looks like. In fact, I can not think of once I have seen a cage and it had made my willy stand.

Good point. But there must be a designer somewhere that can do it. I have a few ideas myself...

[Gibbo89]

Good point. But there must be a designer somewhere that can do it. I have a few ideas myself...

lets see your ideas! draw em up and scan them up on here...

[R-Soul]

lets see your ideas! draw em up and scan them up on here...

I am first pondering patent protection... although I would never get one of the manufacturers to try it - they are too fat cat I reckon...