Freedom of Choice

[NotaGoth]

My ol lady found this letter in a magazine today:

Quote:

FREEDOM OF CHOICE

IN REGARDS to Two Bob's Worth (SM, Feb '05), Morgan I believe you're completely wrong. As a motorcycle rider you shouldn't have to wear a helmet. I think the only requirement should be footwear and shorts.

I believe bikes are safer than cars in many ways and although I'm a car enthusiast, I don't feel as safe in one on the road as I do on a bike. It's a small group of Valentino Rossi wannabes who give motorcycle riders a bad name.

I wear shorts, t-shirt and helmet when travelling 60km/h or under and always wear full leathers when going above 60km/h but I believe it should be up to the individual to choose what to wear.

Damien Pearse, Benalla, Vic


I'm sure theres been plenty of threads about riders and wether or not they wear the correct gear or not.

But are there any thoughts on this letter?

I just can't manage to agree with this guy. :S


*theresa*

[John]

Sorry to be blunt, but he is an idiot - no matter how good you are you dont control nature or the death drivers (cagers etc)..
Go nuts wear nothing die, cost us more money - eventually you will all die off.

Plain silly, but this is the US so who really gives a shit if they kill themselves off they are causing deaths of heaps of other nationalities due to Iraq war fuck it, if your naked and ride, your a bloody idiot (spot the irony).

my 4c

[NotaGoth]

Sorry to be blunt, but he is an idiot - no matter how good you are you dont control nature or the death drivers (cagers etc)..
Go nuts wear nothing die, cost us more money - eventually you will all die off.

Plain silly.

my 4c

I might write in and ask what drugs hes on.. *thinkZ* i'm really missing out on something.

[John]

I might write in and ask what drugs hes on.. *thinkZ* i'm really missing out on something.
Nah, you would understand if you lived in america I have no idea why they do what they do but it seriously pisses alot of people in other countries off, stupid deaths that we dont need.

[Waylander]

Used to agree wth this guy. Still do on some parts but now I think leathers are necesary atleast for mid to long range rides. And some sets of leathers look damn cool. :D Short rides like down the street or just to the petrol station or dairy are just to short to worry about it. Won't ever wear shorts on a bike though. That just looks silly.

[NotaGoth]

Nah, you would understand if you lived in america I have no idea why they do what they do but it seriously pisses alot of people in other countries off, stupid deaths that we dont need.


sadly I think this is an australian magazine.. best put my foot in it now (is half)

but honestly this guy is soooo asking for it.

[StoneChucker]

Oh heck, here we go again, bloody Americans, stupid bunch, every single one of them (written with extreme sarcasm). Look, trying to get through to some people (American haters) is like trying to smack an elephant with a wooden spoon. Think whatever you want (obviously) and vocalise it so we can all see how you think :whocares: I give up I guess.

As for riding gear, even if I'm riding 3.5kms to the petrol station at the end of my suburb, I put my full gear on. Now, my full gear is full cordura type gear, except for my pants. Those, good ol Levi jeans :no: for the time being...

[NotaGoth]

Used to agree wth this guy. Still do on some parts but now I think leathers are necesary atleast for mid to long range rides. And some sets of leathers look damn cool. :D Short rides like down the street or just to the petrol station or dairy are just to short to worry about it. Won't ever wear shorts on a bike though. That just looks silly.


So what happens the day someone "doesn't see you" hits you and sends you for a lovely skid down the road? O.o

[John]

Used to agree wth this guy. Still do on some parts but now I think leathers are necesary atleast for mid to long range rides. And some sets of leathers look damn cool. :D Short rides like down the street or just to the petrol station or dairy are just to short to worry about it. Won't ever wear shorts on a bike though. That just looks silly.
You know most crashes happen on these 'short trips' as you should well know, even more reason to be kit'd up.

[NotaGoth]

Oh heck, here we go again, bloody Americans, stupid bunch, every single one of them (written with extreme sarcasm). Look, trying to get through to some people (American haters) is like trying to smack an elephant with a wooden spoon. Think whatever you want (obviously) and vocalise it so we can all see how you think :whocares: I give up I guess.

As for riding gear, even if I'm riding 3.5kms to the petrol station at the end of my suburb, I put my full gear on. Now, my full gear is full cordura type gear, except for my pants. Those, good ol Levi jeans :no: for the time being...


australian magazine.. :whistle:

[Waylander]

Well had a realization today that I am a fatalist. If it happens it happens. I'm not gonna spend my time worrying about it though. I still wear a leather jacket when doin the short trips and boots but wont really worry about the armour and full face helmet. That's just me though, it's my choice to do so. You people can do what you want. I like to be able to make that choice though otherwise the matrix may aswell exhist but with more confinement.


2c

[NotaGoth]

Short trips.. I know bout those...

Crashed my car only 2km from home..

[John]

australian magazine.. :whistle:

who cares about the ozzies :killingme

[NotaGoth]

who cares about the ozzies :killingme

prevents the outbursts against americans lol

[Pixie]

The libertarian in me thinks that one should be allowed to do anything one wants,with two important provisos:as long as it doesn't harm or otherwise affect another,and you don't expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab to clean up the results of poor decisions.

[John]

prevents the outbursts against americans lol

The irony being that this is all the americans fault and the fact that australia licks some serious US nuts to try be just like them, sure NZ does it but we dont get out PM to go suck off bush (whoa off topic! HA not so) the fact is in the past people I'm sure wouldnt think like this the fact is it became 'gansta' to ride a motorbike with 'yo' 'hoe' on the back and crap like that, its not cool if you have leathers on you cant see how tough or what color you are :killingme

Let natural selection take care of them, just dont let us be so dumb eh! :drinknsin

Pixies point is also valid I just let him say it instead :msn-wink: save me erm... doing it :yes:

[NotaGoth]

The libertarian in me thinks that one should be allowed to do anything one wants,with two important provisos:as long as it doesn't harm or otherwise affect another,and you don't expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab to clean up the results of poor decisions.

But isn't the taxpayer already picking up the tab because of some peoples stupidity?

No offence. Just a question. :)

[James Deuce]

Well had a realization today that I am a fatalist. If it happens it happens. I'm not gonna spend my time worrying about it though. I still wear a leather jacket when doin the short trips and boots but wont really worry about the armour and full face helmet. That's just me though, it's my choice to do so. You people can do what you want. I like to be able to make that choice though otherwise the matrix may aswell exhist but with more confinement.


2c

Yeah but we don't have a choice about paying your medical insurance. ACC is compulsory and collected from many parts of the tax take and most obviously when we pay our registration. Your attitude is what makes our ACC premiums go up, and they are compulsory. No registration, no ride or drive vehicle without possible repercussions.

Being dragged under the wheel of a car at 50km/hr is going to mean that we get to pay for some substantial plastic and orthopaedic surgery to repair the damage. Motorcyclists already make a far too visible proportion of the ACC claims paid out, both for income protection and rehabilitation, so your freedom of choice attitude is actually the freedom of choice to cost everybody who rides bikes an ever increasing amount to register their motorcycles.

Broken bones are easier to heal than skin, muscle, and soft tissue. Decent protective gear can mean the difference between disfigurement and a comparatively small amount of time in pain and discomfort. Mostly discomfort.

I know I lecture about this all the time, but NZ is different to the US in many ways, ACC being an example that is diametrically opposed to almost any point of view on healthcare and ongoing rehabilitation in the US. We can't sue people for causing motor vehicle incidents, or equipment that injures us in the workplace. If we keep giving successive Governments an excuse to exclude motorcyclists from the ACC scheme then we only have ourselves to blame.

[Big Dave]

prevents the outbursts against americans lol

almost the same - Little johhny howard has turned it into the 52nd state anyway.

[Waylander]

the fact is in the past people I'm sure wouldnt think like this the fact is it became 'gansta' to ride a motorbike with 'yo' 'hoe' on the back and crap like that, its not cool if you have leathers on you cant see how tough or what color you are :killingme

Let natural selection take care of them, just dont let us be so dumb eh! :drinknsin

You must be talking about the sport bike riders in the states. Most guys on cruisers don't talk like that and the ones that do ride harleys because they are rich and stupid. Cruiser riders (the non harley ones) atleast wear some kind of leather that though it may not look it, will protect you somewhat in a wreck.

[John]

You must be talking about the sport bike riders in the states. Most guys on cruisers don't talk like that and the ones that do ride harleys because they are rich and stupid. Cruiser riders (the non harley ones) atleast wear some kind of leather that though it may not look it, will protect you somewhat in a wreck.
Yea its all image dont miss the point - I just am not good at expressing my thoughts on print.

[Waylander]

Yea its all image dont miss the point - I just am not good at expressing my thoughts on print.

Niether am I.


Jim2

I think things like the ACC are completely pointless anyway. Health coverage should not be paid by other people but how much you yourself can pay should not decide how much help you get in an emergency.

Maybe something inbetween the states healthcare system (HA!!) and NZ ACC is needed but what are the odds of that happening? Probably about the same as LTNZ developing common sense or the American DMV becoming efficiant. (SP?)

[NotaGoth]

Jim sounds really brainy so I'm just gonna agree with him..

:-P

[250learna]

Every time i think about not putting my gears on i think about how many layers of skin that will cost me in an accident, at verly least i will put on a pair of jeans, i hope to soo get some draggin jeans for a more casual look than the cordura pants.
As for top i take the inners out of the jacket if its warm, or wear it with innners if cold, dont like going out without it.
Gloves always
Helmet always
Boots when going for joyrides or longer rides, or to show off :msn-wink:

On some occasions i consider putting a pillow in the pants to protect the groin from the tank but have yet to do this :whistle:

Ohh and thats realy well said Jim2 :niceone: thumbs up for you

[James Deuce]

Niether am I.


Jim2

I think things like the ACC are completely pointless anyway. Health coverage should not be paid by other people but how much you yourself can pay should not decide how much help you get in an emergency.

Maybe something inbetween the states healthcare system (HA!!) and NZ ACC is needed but what are the odds of that happening? Probably about the same as LTNZ developing common sense or the American DMV becoming efficiant. (SP?)

It doesn't matter what you think should happen. I understand your frustration, but I prefer a non-litigious society. The ACC scheme was bought in via Act of Parliament. You and I don't have a choice about paying ACC premiums and aren't ever likely to. The mounting body of historical evidence the ACC has collected tends to suggest that motorcyclists are dispropotionately represented in injury "accidents", so they have to pay more for their cover. Anything any of us can do to limit the damage we take in accidents will help in the long run. Emergency services and hospital staff certainly treat you differently if you are wearing the correct gear.

You can't have freedom without personal responsibility and in this case the responsibility is to fellow motorcyclists.

[NotaGoth]

Every time i think about not putting my gears on i think about how many layers of skin that will cost me in an accident


Thats actually a good way to think of it :niceone:

Think you'd much prefer to scrape the shit out of your leathers rather than your body.

Or at least save yourself from as much damage as possible.

[Waylander]

It doesn't matter what you think should happen. I understand your frustration, but I prefer a non-litigious society. The ACC scheme was bought in via Act of Parliament. You and I don't have a choice about paying ACC premiums and aren't ever likely to. The mounting body of historical evidence the ACC has collected tends to suggest that motorcyclists are dispropotionately represented in injury "accidents", so they have to pay more for their cover. Anything any of us can do to limit the damage we take in accidents will help in the long run. Emergency services and hospital staff certainly treat you differently if you are wearing the correct gear.

You can't have freedom without personal responsibility and in this case the responsibility is to fellow motorcyclists.

That would mean that it's not personal resposibillity. Also if things like the minichoppers or pocket bikes wern't clased as road legal motorcycles then the premiums would drop aswell. As for the parliment thing why do you think they don't have one in the states. If you get enough people behind an idea then it should be made into law. Only problem comes with currupt beurocrats and idiot politicions. And ofcourse "motorcyclists are dispropotionately represented in injury 'accidents'" when a bike is hit by a car odds are people in the car don't get hurt. Anyway my head hurts now trying to make all this make sense the way it does in my head so I'm gonna call it quits for this.

[Pixie]

But isn't the taxpayer already picking up the tab because of some peoples stupidity?

No offence. Just a question. :)
Yeah we are.I'm just refering to my ideal world ,my utopia (means nowhere in greek)

[Pixie]

Yeah but we don't have a choice about paying your medical insurance. ACC is compulsory and collected from many parts of the tax take and most obviously when we pay our registration. Your attitude is what makes our ACC premiums go up, and they are compulsory. No registration, no ride or drive vehicle without possible repercussions.

Being dragged under the wheel of a car at 50km/hr is going to mean that we get to pay for some substantial plastic and orthopaedic surgery to repair the damage. Motorcyclists already make a far too visible proportion of the ACC claims paid out, both for income protection and rehabilitation, so your freedom of choice attitude is actually the freedom of choice to cost everybody who rides bikes an ever increasing amount to register their motorcycles.

Broken bones are easier to heal than skin, muscle, and soft tissue. Decent protective gear can mean the difference between disfigurement and a comparatively small amount of time in pain and discomfort. Mostly discomfort.

I know I lecture about this all the time, but NZ is different to the US in many ways, ACC being an example that is diametrically opposed to almost any point of view on healthcare and ongoing rehabilitation in the US. We can't sue people for causing motor vehicle incidents, or equipment that injures us in the workplace. If we keep giving successive Governments an excuse to exclude motorcyclists from the ACC scheme then we only have ourselves to blame.
The blameless, no fault/no responsibility society.
ACC is one aspect of one faction's attempt at a utopian goal,
Mine is just diferent,I think people should be responsible for their actions/decisions.

[John]

The blameless, no fault/no responsibility society.
ACC is one aspect of one faction's attempt at a utopian goal,
Mine is just diferent,I think people should be responsible for their actions/decisions.
So in essence do you mean that An ideal would be without ACC and have us pay our plastic surgery/rehab etc after we get hit by a car at the lights etc, or do you mean that the others would have to pay - because if you do that then that induces legal fees to process a forced payment so I dont know maybe expand your point?

[Pixie]

It doesn't matter what you think should happen. I understand your frustration, but I prefer a non-litigious society. The ACC scheme was bought in via Act of Parliament. You and I don't have a choice about paying ACC premiums and aren't ever likely to. The mounting body of historical evidence the ACC has collected tends to suggest that motorcyclists are dispropotionately represented in injury "accidents", so they have to pay more for their cover. Anything any of us can do to limit the damage we take in accidents will help in the long run. Emergency services and hospital staff certainly treat you differently if you are wearing the correct gear.

You can't have freedom without personal responsibility and in this case the responsibility is to fellow motorcyclists.
We were on the road to having a choice until this gumint canned the changes to the ACC act instituted by the previous gumint.
Empoyers were given the right to opt for private insurance.
ACC means never having to say you were responsible for fucking up someone's life. :mad:

[Pixie]

So in essence do you mean that An ideal would be without ACC and have us pay our plastic surgery/rehab etc after we get hit by a car at the lights etc, or do you mean that the others would have to pay - because if you do that then that induces legal fees to process a forced payment so I dont know maybe expand your point?
This is the way it is in the rest of the western world.If you don't have insurance you don't hold a license.If you are a major risk because you are a c**t on the road ,because you drink etc.you don't get insurance.
Responsibility is forced upon you.
It is not perfect by any means.Some people will drive unlicensed,for instance.
We pay a lot more for our ACC "premium" than a private insurance Co ,who is in a competitive environment would require.
ACC has a monopoly of the best kind,we can't refuse to pay.
And now they try not to pay lump sums by dragging the claimants through the courts.

[John]

This is the way it is in the rest of the western world.If you don't have insurance you don't hold a license.If you are a major risk because you are a c**t on the road ,because you drink etc.you don't get insurance.
Responsibility is forced upon you.
It is not perfect by any means.Some people will drive unlicensed,for instance.
We pay a lot more for our ACC "premium" than a private insurance Co ,who is in a competitive environment would require.
ACC has a monopoly of the best kind,we can't refuse to pay.
And now they try not to pay lump sums by dragging the claimants through the courts.
Yea I just didnt under what you said properly thanks for that - I'd prefer to be paying insurance instead of the dork taxes that even take away all my money be it registration or whatever.

Change will eventually occur the ACC was designed to fail the government knows it.

[zeRax]

i take the freedom of choice path

sure accidents can and do happen, and dissapointingly too frequent.
situations vary, i dont live in a big city, i live in blenheim, its fucking tiny.

for me its far too much effort to put gear on just to quickly go get something in town from a shop or something, when for me when im going to town and back its part of the convience of having a bike in the first place.

sure you can get hurt at low speeds, but in blenheim in 50 limit area's ? im pretty confident ill be fine. heck, i doubt id take a helmet with me if it wasnt a requirement, and thats the attitude that makes things more convenient, and also one that could possibly get you hurt, but that could happen anywhere anytime on and off the road

im not talking about not wearing gear, im talking about times of convenience

i think only a person on a death wish wouldnt wear gear on a long or highspeed ride :P
just dont like ppl getting all angst on others peoples business, the worlds policed enough as it is why join the parade, lifes short and holds no meaning, try not to stress about it guys ;)

are you a betting man?

[Big Dave]

i take the freedom of choice path

Me too


are you a betting man?

'I don't get no respect, I went to gamblers anonymous - they gave me eight to one I don't make it' - Dangerfield R (RIP)

[Motu]

Well I agree with freedom of choice - I would like to be able to make decisions on what I do by myself,not have my life mapped out by the Nanny State.Some decisions will be smart,some stupid...and I like to think I would make smart choices,I always felt I was a step ahead in what I was doing and in a way still do,finances permitting.Personal responsability....or be led by the hand throughout life - it'd nice to have the choice.

[James Deuce]

I'll be sending that hat round to you "freedom of choicers" to pay my next rego, OK?

[Lou Girardin]

Be careful what you wish for folks. Thugby players paying for their own injuries? All sports people, in fact. M/Cyclists not being covered unless we wear Govt approved gear all the time, it could happen. The original ACC scheme was nothing like we have now. Greed, new-right ideology and penny-pinching Governments have reduced the original idea to a farce. We have given away the right to sue in exchange for a pittance. ($10,000 or $20,000 for the loss of an arm, I believe) See my thread "ACC Scum".
PS Benella Vic would be Aust, not USA, I'd say.

[Pwalo]

It's hard to believe that this whole thread came about because of some self righteous prat trying to justify his lack of common sense in what to wear on his bike.

Hope you guys managed to get some sleep.

[250learna]

I'll be sending that hat round to you "freedom of choicers" to pay my next rego, OK?

yeah, i wouldnt mind some of that action. its $30 more for my 250 to be registerd than my "sports car" as government classifys it :mad:

[Big Dave]

I'll be sending that hat round to you "freedom of choicers" to pay my next rego, OK?

Sure. I'll conform just for you.

[Yarg]

there were some statistics published a while ago (don't know where) that most accidents happen within 5km of home. Any one else read this?? :ride:

[Motu]

Be careful what you wish for folks. Thugby players paying for their own injuries? All sports people, in fact. M/Cyclists not being covered unless we wear Govt approved gear all the time, it could happen. The original ACC scheme was nothing like we have now. Greed, new-right ideology and penny-pinching Governments have reduced the original idea to a farce. We have given away the right to sue in exchange for a pittance. ($10,000 or $20,000 for the loss of an arm, I believe) See my thread "ACC Scum".
PS Benella Vic would be Aust, not USA, I'd say.

Poor old Norm will be turning in his grave over ACC - he had no idea that there were people in this country who weren't honest and hard working like him,he really thought he was setting up a great system,a legacy of his term in office.Now people can live their whole life in luxury never having worked a day in their life - the whole system suppoted by a guttless Government too scared to do anything about it.

I have some money in my account last week for a job we haven't even completed yet,I have to stack the price of the job up 50% because WINZ pay out before completion,I need to cover my arse in case of problems - they are happy with that,the owner was told he couldn't afford the payments,so they increased his benefit to cover the extra.I'm paying the customer to get a job done in my own shop....

[FROSTY]

Guys I'd suggest we don't deal in apsolutes.
I beat my chest right alongsie you lot. We MUST wear full riding gear all the time. We must ride in a manner that is safe etc etc etc.
Yet I've found myself riding a borrowed bike with an ill fitting helmet a tee shirt and street shoes.
funny thing was i was so accutely aware of how poorly I'd be if i fell off i think I could hear a bee buzzing 150m away.
Yep it mighta been that one time some idiot......
I think it comes down to risk management.

[eliot-ness]

Quote/ I wear shorts, t-shirt and helmet when travelling 60km/h or under and always wear full leathers when going above 60km/h ??????????????


Obviously a quick change artist. Love to see him do it on the motorway.





----------------------
Ninety seven point six percent of statistics are made up on the spot

[Lou Girardin]

I don't know what the climate's like in Benella, but you couldn't wear full protective gear in the warmer places, unless you can keep your speed up. I rented a bike in Samoa, and cooked even in t shirt and shorts.

[MSTRS]

I don't know what the climate's like in Benella, but you couldn't wear full protective gear in the warmer places, unless you can keep your speed up. I rented a bike in Samoa, and cooked even in t shirt and shorts.
Whilst I agree with that, we don't wear the stuff for reasons of temperature, do we?

[Lou Girardin]

Whilst I agree with that, we don't wear the stuff for reasons of temperature, do we?

True, but heat stroke might cause you to bin. So, while you'll die, your corpse will be ungrazed.

[zadok]

[QUOTE]
IN REGARDS to Two Bob's Worth (SM, Feb '05), Morgan I believe you're completely wrong. As a motorcycle rider you shouldn't have to wear a helmet. I think the only requirement should be footwear and shorts.


What a drongo this guy is. I couldn't even imagine riding a bike without a helmet even if the law said you could. Minimum, a helmet and closed in shoes, I reckon. :nono:

[MSTRS]

True, but heat stroke might cause you to bin. So, while you'll die, your corpse will be ungrazed.
Can't argue with that.....

[Motu]

Quote/ I wear shorts, t-shirt and helmet when travelling 60km/h or under and always wear full leathers when going above 60km/h ??????????????


Obviously a quick change artist. Love to see him do it on the motorway.

When I started riding the law was you had to wear a helmet when doing over 30 mph (50kph) So it was no helmet around town and put the helmet on for the open road - of course we never did because that would mean carrying a helmet when not in use.I never got a ticket for no helmet,and never heard of anyone else getting one either.

Funny...no helmet in the most dangerous period in my life and I'm still alive....

[Lou Girardin]

Funny...no helmet in the most dangerous period in my life and I'm still alive....

Ain't that a fact. My worst bin was without a helmet. Didn't get a scratch, damn sore nuts though. Bent double holding them in front of the chickies I was trying to impress was not a good look.

[chickenfunkstar]

IN REGARDS to Two Bob's Worth (SM, Feb '05), Morgan I believe you're completely wrong. As a motorcycle rider you shouldn't have to wear a helmet. I think the only requirement should be footwear and shorts.

I believe bikes are safer than cars in many ways and although I'm a car enthusiast, I don't feel as safe in one on the road as I do on a bike. It's a small group of Valentino Rossi wannabes who give motorcycle riders a bad name.

I wear shorts, t-shirt and helmet when travelling 60km/h or under and always wear full leathers when going above 60km/h but I believe it should be up to the individual to choose what to wear.

Damien Pearse, Benalla, Vic



I agree to his point of view to a certain extent.
Provided he and people like him don't expect other people (i.e. ACC) to pick up the tab for his medical bills etc, I don't have a problem.

I think that anyone who doesn't wear appropriate gear is an idiot.
Thats only my opinion though.
He'll only harm himself if he does come off.

[Motoracer]

I don't know what laws there are in Aussie but if there was a guy who had the same opinion here in NZ, I would have told him "UP YOURS!"! Fine, let him grate the skin off his body like soft cheese AT 60kmph. But who pays the hospital bills? ACC that's who. Who pays the ACC levies? WE DO! So in other words, moron like these who carry on in this manner are doing it in our expence!! So there should be no freedom of choice on wether you wear a helmet (AT LEAST) or not.

Anyway, ask Draco or Speedmedic or RiffRaff about the cases they see of people having to go to the A&E from "low speed" bins on scooters and motorbikes while wearing minimal protection. 60kmph might sound and seem like very slow but when you hit the deck at 60kmph with out the protective gear, it is pleanty fast enough to cause serious damage. Imagine a brick being chucked at your head at 60kmph, how big of a mess will that be? Now imagine you being chucked at a brick wall head on at 60kmph on a bike. Both are the same.

[MacD]

We pay a lot more for our ACC "premium" than a private insurance Co ,who is in a competitive environment would require.

In a private competitive environment, you would be required to pay significantly more for personal injury insurance as a motorcyclist. The risk of injury is significantly higher and the rate of claims is 10 times higher for motorcyclists than car drivers in NZ. ACC cross-subsidises the cost of motorcycle injury payments from other sources. Private insurance would not do this.

Look at how private health insurance works, as you get older your premiums increase with your risk. Private health insurance companies have steadily removed cross-subsidisation between age-groups over the past decade or so. The result is that the proportion of the population with private health insurance has been decreasing in NZ despite the apparent under-provision of state-funded health care as evidenced by waiting lists for surgery, chemotherapy etc.

Also while ACC is a "no fault" system, private injury insurance becomes a "somebody else's fault system" leading to the situation in the USA where if somebody slips over on the footpath outside your house you will be sued for negligence.

With regard to private injury insurance, be very careful of what you wish for! What do you think an insurance company would do if they found out that your injury accident occurred above the legal speed limit and on one wheel? Or maybe even "knee-down" on a public road?

ACC isn't perfect, but it is by no means the worst system in the world.

[Waylander]

In a private competitive environment, you would be required to pay significantly more for personal injury insurance as a motorcyclist. The risk of injury is significantly higher and the rate of claims is 10 times higher for motorcyclists than car drivers in NZ. ACC cross-subsidises the cost of motorcycle injury payments from other sources. Private insurance would not do this.

Look at how private health insurance works, as you get older your premiums increase with your risk. Private health insurance companies have steadily removed cross-subsidisation between age-groups over the past decade or so. The result is that the proportion of the population with private health insurance has been decreasing in NZ despite the apparent under-provision of state-funded health care as evidenced by waiting lists for surgery, chemotherapy etc.

Also while ACC is a "no fault" system, private injury insurance becomes a "somebody else's fault system" leading to the situation is the USA where if somebody slips over on the footpath outside your house you will be sued for negligence.

With regard to private injury insurance, be very careful of what you wish for! What do you think an insurance company would do if they found out that your injury accident occurred at above the legal speed limit and on one wheel? Or maybe even "knee-down" on a public road?

ACC isn't perfect, but it is by no means the worst system in the world.

That's why I mentiond there should be something in between. Unfortunatly with the system this country has in place the people have little to no power to change things.

[Lou Girardin]

That's why I mentiond there should be something in between. Unfortunatly with the system this country has in place the people have little to no power to change things.

Au contraire, you have a choice of several political parties who will all do the same thing. Only the rethoric differs.

[Waylander]

Au contraire, you have a choice of several political parties who will all do the same thing. Only the rethoric differs.

Pretty much the same in the states, difference is if you want a law changed you start up a pettition then form a commitee. Works most of the time when the people arn't to lazy to actually do something.

[Wolf]

Au contraire, you have a choice of several political parties who will all do the same thing. Only the rethoric differs.
We are a democracy - we are free to choose which of the identical policys we want.

[MSTRS]

Pretty much the same in the states, difference is if you want a law changed you start up a pettition then form a commitee. Works most of the time when the people arn't to lazy to actually do something.
Someone's siggy covers that, something like "A committee is somewhere that good ideas are sent to be quietly strangled to death"

[Waylander]

Someone's siggy covers that, something like "A committee is somewhere that good ideas are sent to be quietly strangled to death"

That's whe nthe government forms the comittee. When it's made up of concerned citisens(sp?) then they usually work. Then it's just up to congress to "quietly strangle" it to death.

[Biff]

Two words...Arse Biscuits.
:no:

[Sniper]

Im just gonna say......... arsehole

[MSTRS]

That's whe nthe government forms the comittee. When it's made up of concerned citisens(sp?) then they usually work. Then it's just up to congress to "quietly strangle" it to death.
Any committee is structured along the lines of an incomplete skeleton - you know.
The Knuckle bones that knock everyone else
The Jaw bones that do nothing but talk
The Arse bones that sit around & do nothing
The Back bones that actually do something

That is not a recipe for long term success is it?

[Lou Girardin]

Pretty much the same in the states, difference is if you want a law changed you start up a pettition then form a commitee. Works most of the time when the people arn't to lazy to actually do something.

We have those too. Tens of thousands sign a petition, then the Govt ignores it.

[Waylander]

Any committee is structured along the lines of an incomplete skeleton - you know.
The Knuckle bones that knock everyone else
The Jaw bones that do nothing but talk
The Arse bones that sit around & do nothing
The Back bones that actually do something

That is not a recipe for long term success is it?

The ones that I've been involved in mostly just had the knuckle bones and backbones. All the ones against us had the rest of those. Anyway the only way things change is by when you go and do it. Don't expect others to do it for you.

[Skyryder]

ACC means never having to say you were responsible for fucking up someone's life. :mad:

Where'd you get that idea from. You injure or kill someone on the road and you can bet your sorry arse you're going to have to explain yourself. If that explanation is unsatisfactory charges will be laid. And if you think ACC is going to come to your defence..................think again.

Skyryder

[Coldkiwi]

60kmph might sound and seem like very slow but when you hit the deck at 60kmph with out the protective gear, it is pleanty fast enough to cause serious damage. Imagine a brick being chucked at your head at 60kmph, how big of a mess will that be? Now imagine you being chucked at a brick wall head on at 60kmph on a bike. Both are the same.

you got it mate. The bloke who wrote that letter is clearly living on another planet. If you picked him up in the back of a truck one day and said 'You're about to get pushed out the back at 60kmhr, do you want to wear these leathers and a full face helmet or go in that t shirt?' you can bet his backside he'd take the leathers

all the letter writer is really saying is 'i'm too stupid to know what hurts'

[curious george]

Gotta add my 2c here...

IF I'm riding under 50kph, (local, nothing motorway like), than I'm quite happy with jeans.
I don't use the full gear, except for a helmet, gloves and sometimes a cordura jacket.
I dont feel unsafe at all.
I can ride my bicycle at about that speed with less protective clothing, and still feel safe too.
Why is that?
I work in the operating rooms at a Hospital, and see at least one biker crash a week, I know the damage that can be done, the pain, the cost.....
I have crashed myself a couple of times, (motorbike and bicycle), so I also know firsthand how it feels....

Still don't feel unsafe putting about town despite massive amounts of evidence detailing most crashes occur within 5km or closer of home.

[That Guy]

You mean like when you're at the end of a long drive from Taupo; 3 kms from home and you drive thorugh a red light? That kind of accident CG? That kind? Really? Never...... :rofl:

[curious george]

Ahem...
I still don't feel like a dickhead riding in jeans, I know the risks, accept the penalties, and would feel like a right cahn if I did crash.....

As for some people suggesting there should be some sort of compulsory law with safety gear....I would probably agree with you.
So long as we can also limit you bike to under 100kph, and the HP, and in the near future limit it in 50kph zones with the GPS your bike will have to have fitted.

Oh well. Cant stay wrapped up in cotton wool for ever.

[curious george]

You mean like when you're at the end of a long drive from Taupo; 3 kms from home and you drive thorugh a red light? That kind of accident CG? That kind? Really? Never...... :rofl:
Bstard. Just like that kind OF GENUINE MISREAD THE LIGHTS, BUT NOTHING HAPPENED accident. *still sorry about that - really I am...* :weep:

Proves the point though. Accidents often happen close to home, when they should'nt really.

[oldrider]

The guy in the letter is confused, he just wants freedom of choice.

Motorcling is an expression of "FREEDOM". Safety is an expression of "EXPERIENCE". If he doesn't get the first one right and lives through it, he certainly will begin to appreciate the second. I have and have got the scars to proove it. Ouch!!!!

[dame]

G’day,
I’m the person who actually wrote this, my letter was published in street machine magazine.

I believe that you cant/shouldn’t out law stupidity and that other people shouldn’t suffer because of a few stupid people. OLDRIDER got it 100% right in that that’s all i want is freedom of choice.

i understand that wearing shorts, t-shirt and helmet is taking a risk and understand the risks involved with riding a motorcycle. but its not something I’m going to change.

we can kill ourselves by smoking, taking drugs, by alcohol or by not wearing protective gear when riding. i just happen to choose the last one

its like that saying "i don’t believe there should be capital punishment for stupidity, what we should do is remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort it self out"


damien pearse

[NotaGoth]

G’day,
I’m the person who actually wrote this, my letter was published in street machine magazine.

I believe that you cant/shouldn’t out law stupidity and that other people shouldn’t suffer because of a few stupid people. OLDRIDER got it 100% right in that that’s all i want is freedom of choice.

i understand that wearing shorts, t-shirt and helmet is taking a risk and understand the risks involved with riding a motorcycle. but its not something I’m going to change.

we can kill ourselves by smoking, taking drugs, by alcohol or by not wearing protective gear when riding. i just happen to choose the last one

its like that saying "i don’t believe there should be capital punishment for stupidity, what we should do is remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort it self out"


damien pearse


all i can say is.......



DICKHEAD


:bash:

[SixPackBack]

I wonder what the collective view is after reading this unfortunate gentleman's story.....certainly made my mind up for me! THIS IS GRAPHIC
http://www.cmyoung.com/bikewreck.html

[NotaGoth]

I believe that you cant/shouldn’t out law stupidity and that other people shouldn’t suffer because of a few stupid people.



Fact is BRIGHT people are suffering because theres STUPID people like you riding bikes.





*makeZ* wanking gesture

[marty]

yuou do a lot of wanking kitti! and how are bright people suffering because of damien ?

that idiot was doing 100mph in shorts. hes paid in $$$ and skin for being said idiot.

i'm with motu - self responsibility. i wear t-shirt shorts and sneakers all the time around town. keeps me aware and my speed down. if i wear the violators i ride like a squid. always wear my arai though.

i did 200kmh today - had full leathers on (jacket and pants and boots and gloves). all of just meant i would have been an unscratched corpse.

*makeZ* BJ gesture

[NotaGoth]

yuou do a lot of wanking kitti! and how are bright people suffering because of damien ?

that idiot was doing 100mph in shorts. hes paid in $$$ and skin for being said idiot.

i'm with motu - self responsibility. i wear t-shirt shorts and sneakers all the time around town. keeps me aware and my speed down. if i wear the violators i ride like a squid. always wear my arai though.

i did 200kmh today - had full leathers on (jacket and pants and boots and gloves). all of just meant i would have been an unscratched corpse.

*makeZ* BJ gesture

think about it


*MakeZ* wanking gesture aimed at you for like the ZILLIONTH time

[marty]

now THAT'S an exxageration. i've only counted 5

[NotaGoth]

now THAT'S an exxageration. i've only counted 5

*makeZ* wanking gesture



now thats six

[marty]

taken into the chat room

[NotaGoth]

taken into the chat room

umm.. "who cares?" :shake:

[NotaGoth]

umm.. "who cares?" :shake:


Ok Marty this is an official apology from me. I'm sorry for being mean. And no I don't hate you. I'm just a cranky cow.

[Lou Girardin]

So how much choice do the anti's on this thread propose to take away?
The ultimate progression is to ban bikes.
Don't think for an instant it can't happen.
Fight for the smallest right as if it were the greatest.

[Lou Girardin]

i did 200kmh today - had full leathers on (jacket and pants and boots and gloves). all of just meant i would have been an unscratched corpse.

gesture

And you survived?
How can this be?
Could it be that speed isn't invariably fatal?

[marty]

nah - that's just 2/3rds of its top speed! it was under controlled conditions of course. wouldn't think of doing it otherwise. i was on my best squidly behaviour

[tracyprier]

It doesn't matter what you think should happen. I understand your frustration, but I prefer a non-litigious society. The ACC scheme was bought in via Act of Parliament. You and I don't have a choice about paying ACC premiums and aren't ever likely to. The mounting body of historical evidence the ACC has collected tends to suggest that motorcyclists are dispropotionately represented in injury "accidents", so they have to pay more for their cover. Anything any of us can do to limit the damage we take in accidents will help in the long run. Emergency services and hospital staff certainly treat you differently if you are wearing the correct gear.

You can't have freedom without personal responsibility and in this case the responsibility is to fellow motorcyclists.
...what he said. You big smart Jim2 :)

No I don't want NZ to turn into the ligitious USA either, hopefully we still (as a nation) have too much common sense for that.

As for gear. Every time I get on the bike it all goes on and to be honest it is just a habit now, not something I even think about.

Saw a guy on a sprotbike yesterday going down Symonds St: helmet, tshirt, shorts, trainers... must say I give an involuntary shiver when I see that!

[marty]

I LOVE~ riding the busa/TL around town in shorts/t-shirt/sneakers/helmet. feels so free. a bit like surfing without a wetsuit. or having sex without a condom.

[MrMelon]

umm.. "who cares?" :shake:

Grow up.... jesus.

[terbang]

I allways wear my gear when riding as I see it has to improve my chances if and when I go down onto the cheese grater (again)! Had an interesting perspective when I was on a layover in New York recently and visited a friend who lived in Conneticut. I was kindly loaned his Missus's Harley so that we could do a bit of riding around the state (a boys trip). I had no gear as I was travelling lightly and was wearing Jeans and sweatshirt when I arrived. Mauri looked surprised at my enquirey about a helmet and admitted that he didn't own one and loaned me a denim jacket and a robust pair of sunnies as a token for protection. The guy isn't a dick, he is a safety thinking, responsible person in his world, who for a living, commands a large business jet in the NY area. However when it came to wearing leathers and a helmet on his bike he had never given it much thought and was of the culture of his region. Over 4 days riding I enjoyed riding a Harley for the first time and followed Mauri with his gentle style of touring in a nice part of the world, though I never got comfortable not wearing a helmet. Guess its all about what you are used to and, through the eyes of Americans, "freedom of choice".

[Jackrat]

I allways wear my gear when riding as I see it has to improve my chances if and when I go down onto the cheese grater (again)! Had an interesting perspective when I was on a layover in New York recently and visited a friend who lived in Conneticut. I was kindly loaned his Missus's Harley so that we could do a bit of riding around the state (a boys trip). I had no gear as I was travelling lightly and was wearing Jeans and sweatshirt when I arrived. Mauri looked surprised at my enquirey about a helmet and admitted that he didn't own one and loaned me a denim jacket and a robust pair of sunnies as a token for protection. The guy isn't a dick, he is a safety thinking, responsible person in his world, who for a living, commands a large business jet in the NY area. However when it came to wearing leathers and a helmet on his bike he had never given it much thought and was of the culture of his region. Over 4 days riding I enjoyed riding a Harley for the first time and followed Mauri with his gentle style of touring in a nice part of the world, though I never got comfortable not wearing a helmet. Guess its all about what you are used to and, through the eyes of Americans, "freedom of choice".

Interesting,,,he wouldn't like living in NZ but,,wouldn't like this site either,,,people here don't want you or anybody else to have freedom of choise,,,an they all practice the company line daily just so their ready when somebody that does want freedom of choise,,,or freedom of anything else for that matter, comes along.
But of course the road rules an the police are all/both fucked an THEY should be able to do what THEY want.:thud:

[marty]

I LOVE~ riding the busa/TL around town in shorts/t-shirt/sneakers/helmet. feels so free. a bit like surfing without a wetsuit. or having sex without a condom.

tell me about it. i've received more red bling for this post than i had TOTAL before it.

PC wankers.

[Macktheknife]

,people here don't want you or anybody else to have freedom of choise,,,an they all practice the company line daily just so their ready when somebody that does want freedom of choise,,,or freedom of anything else for that matter, comes along.
But of course the road rules an the police are all/both fucked an THEY should be able to do what THEY want.:thud:
Freedom of choice in spelling perhaps? lol
Seriously though, choice is a funny thing and I find it really amusing that you and others here are choosing to defend the right to be stupid!
This is not freedom, nor is it a rational thing to defend, surely you do not wish us to think of you as someone who chooses to be stupid? If you should have the right to be stupid by choice, what right should I have if your choice offends me?
Is it reasonable for you to watch a person risk their life and well-being because they have the right to be stupid if they want to be? Any rational, reasonable person would at least warn the idiot concerned, and try to get them to choose differently.
If you wish to die slowly and in great pain, while putting your friends and family though hell with all the 'If only...' things that always follow an accident... then please reconsider. I, like others here, am not trying to remove anyone's rights, we are just pointing out that the 'right to stupidity' is something like fucking for virginity. (to steal a phrase) You may not like the fact that someone has pointed out that stupidity but that does not change the nature of it, or the fact of it.
By the way ACC, is probably one of the best things that we could have here in NZ, and you would be foolish to want a private system. When it was tried the private companies that entered the market to compete did what insurance companies always do and spread the risk by re-insuring. When the true cost of accidents started to show it caused 2 of the largest european insurance companies to go broke because they could not cover the amounts involved. ACC is expensive true, but its better than the current options.
All I or anyone else here is saying is freedom always carries responsibility, and that responsibility is not only to oneself, live with it.... or dont.
:calm:

[Ixion]

Have you considered the irony of posting this in a motorcycle forum? Where everyone reading it chooses to indulge in a pastime that is , by the standards of the vast majority of society stupid , pointless ,and almost certain to cause us to die slowly and in great pain, while putting our friends and family though hell.

Be careful what you wish upon others , for you may end up getting it for yourself.