Do we really know just how serious the oil spill is?

[Edbear]

Subject: Re Gulf spill: INTERESTING COMMENT FROM AN ENGINEER


If this engineer is right, this is truly a scary scenario! Here's his story.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heard you mention the oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico this morning, and you (and most everyone else except maybe US talk show host George Noory) are totally missing the boat on how big and bad a disaster this is.

First fact, the original estimate was about 5,000 gallons of oil a day spilling into the ocean. Now they're saying 200,000 gallons a day. That's over a million gallons of crude oil a week!

I'm an engineer with 25 years of experience. I've worked on some big projects with big machines. Maybe that's why this mess is so clear to me.

First, the BP platform was drilling for what they call deep oil. They go out where the ocean is about 5,000 feet deep and drill another 30,000 feet into the crust of the earth. This it right on the edge of what human technology can do. Well, this time they hit a pocket of oil at such high pressure that it burst all of their safety valves all the way up to the drilling rig and then caused the rig to explode and sink. Take a moment to grasp the import of that. The pressure behind this oil is so high that it destroyed the maximum effort of human science to contain it.

When the rig sank it flipped over and landed on top of the drill hole some 5,000 feet under the ocean.

Now they've got a hole in the ocean floor, 5,000 feet down with a wrecked oil drilling rig sitting on top of is spewing 200,000 barrels of oil a day into the ocean. Take a moment and consider that, will you!

First they have to get the oil rig off the hole to get at it in order to try to cap it. Do you know the level of effort it will take to move that wrecked oil rig, sitting under 5,000 feet of water? That operation alone would take years and hundreds of millions to accomplish. Then, how do you cap that hole in the muddy ocean floor? There just is no way. No way.

On the longer-term side of things, there are signs that this largest oil drilling catastrophe could also become the worst natural gas and climate disaster. The explosion has released tremendous amounts of methane from deep in the ocean, and research shows that methane, when mixed with air, is the most powerful (read: terrible) greenhouse gas — 26 times worse than carbon-dioxide. Our warming planet just got a lot hotter.



The only piece of human technology that might address this is a nuclear bomb. I'm not kidding. If they put a nuke down there in the right spot it might seal up the hole. Nothing short of that will work.

If we can't cap that hole that oil is going to destroy the oceans of the world. It only takes one quart of motor oil to make 250,000 gallons of ocean water toxic to wildlife. Are you starting to get the magnitude of this?

We're so used to our politicians creating false crises to fo rward their criminal agendas that we aren't recognizing that we're staring straight into possibly the greatest disaster mankind will ever see. Imagine what happens if that oil keeps flowing until it destroys all life in the oceans of this planet. Who knows how big of a reservoir of oil is down there.

Not to mention that the oceans are critical to maintaining the proper oxygen level in the atmosphere for human life.

Unless God steps in and fixes this. No human can. You can be sure of that!

[Tank]

Interesting site:

http://www.ifitwasmyhome.com/

place the spill over any location to help with the perspective of size. Scary.

[Katman]

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[Mudfart]

its funny how its been 50 days of spill now, and not one news site from anywhere in the world has gone in depth as to what conglomeration owns BP. Yes I know its British Petroleum, but does that mean its a state owned enterprise belonging to the english people, or the Queen?. who are the fat cats that require gutting over this? Why is noone saying anything? Why does noone care who is at fault?
All they say is BP, BP BP!!! with all the joke sarcastic signs, like British Pollution.
Biggest question of all, why is our news so false, predictable, negative, agitative, and shallow?. They never go deep enough and ask the truly hard or really important questions.
John Campbell does, but when the polititians side skirt an answer twice, he then moves on. Go for the throat and don't let the fucker off.

[Gone Burger]

No I don't think we quite realise how major this disaster really is. It won't be until months / years down the track when we are still trying to clean up the incredible mess, that the full scale of it will really become clear.

This image below really gets my blood boiling. What a way to die for such a large amount of wildlife. Slowly, painfully, inhumainly..

It's not over yet... not even close. :no:

[rainman]

We are unable to discuss issues like this (oil enviro damage and scarcity, climate change, etc) logically, because we are aware at some visceral level that oil is in equal parts wonderful and terrible.

My bet is there will be some talk about banning off-shore drilling, even some action on this (has happened in a few places already) but it will be short-lived, and when the media gets bored and goes away, we'll all move on to something more exciting. A truly sane response to the oil issue requires us to make more radical change than we are prepared to, and would kill a few sacred cows along the way. So it won't happen; we'll just "keep on doing what we can, until we can't, and then we won't".

[Genestho]

We are unable to discuss issues like this (oil enviro damage and scarcity, climate change, etc) logically, because we are aware at some visceral level that oil is in equal parts wonderful and terrible.

My bet is there will be some talk about banning off-shore drilling, even some action on this (has happened in a few places already) but it will be short-lived, and when the media gets bored and goes away, we'll all move on to something more exciting. A truly sane response to the oil issue requires us to make more radical change than we are prepared to, and would kill a few sacred cows along the way. So it won't happen; we'll just "keep on doing what we can, until we can't, and then we won't".
Too true, since this happened I've been keeping up with news through the states, and as I was already aware that we do rely on oil, out of interest - I thought I'd see just how far it reaches into our everyday lives, I found there's 4-6000 products we use daily. It's not enough to scream abuse at BP, it additionally requires alot more long term lifestyle change and dedication from consumers, and I don't think people are prepared to change their consumption, to reduce demand.
In America consumption is something like 21% of world consumption alone - depending on what you read.

[BoristheBiter]

While this is a disaster that will be felt for a long time to come, no one (myself included) knows what goes on in the oil fields of third world countries.
I watched with disgust on Monday night the "Ross Kemp looks for pirates".
I could not even begin to describe how bad it was. He was in Nigeria and it was all because of the oil fields and corruption in the government.
I will try and find it on YouTube and post up here.
But it makes you think of what else we are not told about.

[Edbear]

While this is a disaster that will be felt for a long time to come, no one (myself included) knows what goes on in the oil fields of third world countries.
I watched with disgust on Monday night the "Ross Kemp looks for pirates".
I could not even begin to describe how bad it was. He was in Nigeria and it was all because of the oil fields and corruption in the government.
I will try and find it on YouTube and post up here.
But it makes you think of what else we are not told about.

Yup! Check out the Niger Delta, it's an oil-soaked waste

[BoristheBiter]

found some of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzrv-RYELxs

my connection is playing up so haven't checked if it is the right part.

[YellowDog]

I know that BP started out as being British Petroleum however that was when it was a relataively small company. I thought BP stood for Bharat Petroleum Corporation Limited (BPCL), which is among the largest PSU companies in India. The Arab countries (Kuwait in particular) also have a large slice as well as American Banks (JP Morgan being the major holder). BP is just two meaningless initials and from their diverse portfolio of offerings, in the late 1990s they attempted to re-brand BP as standing for Beyond Petroleum (they failed).

What is however very clear is that it has taken 50 days to reduce the destructive oil flow to around 50% of what it was on day one. How can this company get away with not having an effective Disaster Recovery plan? This is catastrophe is not like the Twin Towers going down together. Oil platforms have suffered such serious blow outs before and to be so inadequately prepared is pretty disgusting.

The damage to the environment is irrepairable. What I don't understand is why it has been so easily accepted. The talk will now be about what steps shold be put in place to prevent a similar disaster occurring again in the future. Surely this has already been done more than once and why should anyone believe they will get it right next time?

[Korumba]

Couldn't they just get one of thos $10.00 oil filters from Mt Eden Motorcycles and fix it?

[rainman]

How can this company get away with not having an effective Disaster Recovery plan? This is catastrophe is not like the Twin Towers going down together. Oil platforms have suffered such serious blow outs before and to be so inadequately prepared is pretty disgusting.

That's easy: there is no economic incentive for them to do so. There was a similar leak 25 years ago (or thereabouts, Ixtoc I think) which took months to clear up despite being in shallower water. We did not learn the lessons from that because there is not enough financial incentive to do so. If we priced environmental risk externalities correctly modern society would fall apart.

Capitalism depends on cheap energy, cheap labour, and loose environmental regulations.

[BoristheBiter]

I watched a bit of that interview on with that oil worker that jumped off the rig after it blew up. the bit that suck in my mind was when he saw the rubber from the selas coming up in the pipes he didn't shut it down.
now i have been on the oil platforms off NP and everyone has the right to shut the plant down if they is a risk to the plateform or personel.
Some resposabilty has to come down on the operators out on the rig.

[wysper]

Slowly, painfully, inhumainly..



I have always thought "inhumanely" is one of the most inappropriate uses of language given that humans are quite possibly the most vicious, dangerous, destructive and cruel animal on the planet.

[marty]

if you believe for a minute that the flow is slowing, watch this live link:

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/incident_response/STAGING/local_assets/html/Skandi_ROV2.html

[Gone Burger]

I have always thought "inhumanely" is one of the most inappropriate uses of language given that humans are quite possibly the most vicious, dangerous, destructive and cruel animal on the planet.

Actually, very good point - sad, but rather true

[Naki Rat]

.........
The damage to the environment is irrepairable. What I don't understand is why it has been so easily accepted. The talk will now be about what steps shold be put in place to prevent a similar disaster occurring again in the future. Surely this has already been done more than once and why should anyone believe they will get it right next time?
We are absolutely dependent on cheap hydrocarbon derived energy and as it becomes increasingly difficult to find and extract disasters such as this will become more common. It will happen again and they will become worse :(

Check out this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU) to see where the world is heading as we race towards the depletion of mineral resources with hardly a thought of the future.

[Genestho]

The damage to the environment is irrepairable. What I don't understand is why it has been so easily accepted. The talk will now be about what steps shold be put in place to prevent a similar disaster occurring again in the future. Surely this has already been done more than once and why should anyone believe they will get it right next time?

It's quite hard to know who is a reliable source for records of safety violations with OSHA but:

"BP's problems date back at least to 2005, when the BP refinery explosion in Texas City, Texas claimed 15 lives. When OSHA began an investigation of the industry in 2007, though, it found BP stood apart from its counterparts in the industry, with 872 serious safety violations – 97% of all serious safety violations in the industry since 2007, according to the Center for Public Integrity analysis of OSHA data. What's more, these violations happened at just two BP refineries, in Texas City and in Toledo, Ohio. (Data runs through February 2010, and is restricted to refinery safety violations, so it does not account for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.) Here's a look at how those violations breakdown:

•760 egregious willful
•69 willful
•30 serious
•3 unclassified
Most violations came, according to the Center for Public Integrity, because BP failed to fix the problems identified as the cause of the 2005 Texas City refinery explosion. What does that say about BP's ability to reform following the Deepwater Horizon Gulf oil spill?"



Read more: http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/bp-safety-record-0517#ixzz0qLO7k0bP

And another source link on BP safety violations in the US: http://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2010/05/bps_systemic_safety_problem.php

[Naki Rat]

I watched a bit of that interview on with that oil worker that jumped off the rig after it blew up. the bit that suck in my mind was when he saw the rubber from the selas coming up in the pipes he didn't shut it down.
now i have been on the oil platforms off NP and everyone has the right to shut the plant down if they is a risk to the plateform or personel.
Some resposabilty has to come down on the operators out on the rig.
If you've been out on the rigs you'll also know that the right to shut down the job for safety reasons also comes with the right to find another job off of the rigs when your contract is up.
Also there is two big differences on the Deepwater Horizon situation: The pressure was on hugely due to production delays, and it was in the Gulf Of Mexico where pretty much anything goes.

[BoristheBiter]

If you've been out on the rigs you'll also know that the right to shut down the job for safety reasons also comes with the right to find another job off of the rigs when your contract is up.
Also there is two big differences on the Deepwater Horizon situation: The pressure was on hugely due to production delays, and it was in the Gulf Of Mexico where pretty much anything goes.

Yes but eveyone is going on at BP (and rightly so) but some blame has to go to the on site crew.
when i was on ship the delays were regarded as the worst thing ever, but you were still expected to do your job professionally and to the highest standard becuase the loss of the rig would be worse than a few days down time.

[Taz]

I watched a bit of that interview on with that oil worker that jumped off the rig after it blew up. the bit that suck in my mind was when he saw the rubber from the selas coming up in the pipes he didn't shut it down.
now i have been on the oil platforms off NP and everyone has the right to shut the plant down if they is a risk to the plateform or personel.
Some resposabilty has to come down on the operators out on the rig.

Dude.... Where'd you go to school? :lol:

[BoristheBiter]

Dude.... Where'd you go to school? :lol:

Microsoft spell check via LBC. i must have not never been useing it when i was not looking at typing what i wanted, so it was not seen untill someone had seen it before there was a chance to put it right.

Shit just read that, i should be a spin doctor for BP.
And people go on how bad teachers are nor problems hear.

[oldrider]

We wont be satisfied until the whole world looks like a Nigerian backwater and even then all we will do is look for someone else to blame! :shifty:

Alas, such is life! :mellow:

[sinfull]

I blame the cops !

[Indiana_Jones]

We are absolutely dependent on cheap hydrocarbon derived energy and as it becomes increasingly difficult to find and extract distasters such as this will become more common. It will happen again and they will become worse :(

Check out this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU) to see where the world is heading as we race towards the depletion of mineral resources with hardly a thought of the future.


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-Indy

[Naki Rat]

Excellent movie.... fantasy becoming reality?

Another interesting watch at present is Dead Ahead - The Exxon Valdez Disaster, which somebody has been kind enough to load up on YouTube in 10 installments. Talk about deja vous :angry:

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[Quasievil]

Difference was that was one neglectful captain who was drunk and once ran aground tried to back up ripping the hull open.

[Naki Rat]

Difference was that was one neglectful captain who was drunk and once ran aground tried to back up ripping the hull open.

Different mistake and scenario sure, but check out the actions of the oil company, coastguard, polititians and locals, and the GOM spill is just a replay.

[davereid]

We are absolutely dependent on cheap hydrocarbon derived energy and as it becomes increasingly difficult to find and extract disasters such as this will become more common. It will happen again and they will become worse :(

Check out this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU) to see where the world is heading as we race towards the depletion of mineral resources with hardly a thought of the future.

The Stone Age didn't end for lack of stone, and the oil age will end long before the world runs out of oil.'' Sheik Ahmed Zaki Yamani (Saudi Oil Minister 1970)

The oil age is already almost over. Right now the EU are building a nuclear fusion plant in the South of France. Its a step in the right direction. We can realistically expect fusion technologies to deliver cheap, safe electricity within a lifetime - well before fossil fuels become rare.

The real issue is how do we deal with the bloody god-awful mess in the meantime.

We live better lives, have more food, live longer and enjoy a quality of life only dreamed of a century ago. Cheap energy is responsible.

If we don't continue to find sources of cheap energy, our quality of life will fall. But I use "our quality" much as the Queen speaks of "We".

It wont be my individual quality of life that will fall. Its the quality of life of the poor that will fall, fastest, furtherest, and most irrecoverably.

[Mudfart]

when they started removing oil from the ground in the 1800's, did they know all the scientific data for the reason mother nature had developed oil and what its purpose is, in nature?. I would argue that science was still quite primitive then, and say no.
Hypothetically, what if oil was natures lubricant, that in some deposits, at between bedrock or crust that was part of a tectonic? plate. I cant remember if they are called tectonic.
SO, hypothetically, what if oil in its natural state, reduced the friction caused by movements in the crust? and we replace the oil we have taken with water, or sand?.
I've learned over my 30 odd years that when you take something away from performing its natural "job", and replace it with something completely different, you will eventually get a fuck up beyond all proportions ever imagined.
But then I hear that oil reserves replenish themselves naturally, but I dont beleive anything I hear from the media these days.

[Quasievil]

Different mistake and scenario sure, but check out the actions of the oil company, coastguard, polititians and locals, and the GOM spill is just a replay.

yeah dude, just watching the Youtube now mate. seems that way doesnt it

[MisterD]

Interesting parallels with recent corporate problems here. Both Telecom and BP decided a good few years ago to concentrate of being "brands" and sub-contract the messy business of actually running a network (to Alcatel) or drilling for oil (to Halliburton)...suddenly they find themselves responsible for failures that they'd distanced themselves from really being able to control.

That f'ing Obama's got a brass neck though whining about BP's responsibilities to the American people and adding a bit of snide pom-bashing into the equation. Three words arsehole: Union, Carbide and Bhopal.

[Naki Rat]

Oil is only the leachate from nature's compost heap which is contained in pores in the rock. Lubricant that has an effect on tectonic plates ?? Damn there's some misinformed theories out there:gob:

Sure oil replenishes itself but the time frames of its formation versus our extraction are poles apart. We have depleted millions of years of oil creation in about a century. Go figure.

[Naki Rat]

yeah dude, just watching the Youtube now mate. seems that way doesnt it

And when you turn over rocks in Prince William Sound you still find crude oil today :angry:

[mashman]

Three words arsehole: Union, Carbide and Bhopal. that's 4 dude :shifty:

So it's yet another fuck up... could be the worst of all time... I read the article of the survivor off of the rig (can't imagine how long it must have felt)... he shoulda knocked the dumb fuck out that told him all was "well" and pulled the plug himself (but then he'd have to start looking for a new job)... what's the cost of losing a drilling platform v's the amount of oil being lost in the ocean (which can be recovered)?

You know my usual response to this shit, the pressure for PROFIT fucking up yet another part of the planet, killing innocent people and creating a sideshow that more than rivals the antics of Sideshow Bob... Are you ready to reconsider the future of NZ yet? :rofl:

[Quasievil]

The link says the message

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/05/bp-gulf-spill-now-equaling-exxon-valdez-every-3-days.html

[onearmedbandit]

With the amount spewing out I'm surpried the oil compainies haven't jacked up their prices yet. Maybe that would be bad form at the present time though. 'Hey, we fucked up, we're killing the environment, but it's ok, after putting our prices up we're still making a profit'.

[Naki Rat]

With the amount spewing out I'm surpried the oil compainies haven't jacked up their prices yet. Maybe that would be bad form at the present time though. 'Hey, we fucked up, we're killing the environment, but it's ok, after putting our prices up we're still making a profit'.

World oil production peaked in 2008 at approximately 75 million barrels per day (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5395). 50,000 - 100,000 barrels/day is not goung to figure in oil prices directly, but the cost of the clean-up will find its way to the pump eventually.

[wysper]

Oil is only the leachate from nature's compost heap which is contained in pores in the rock. Lubricant that has an effect on tectonic plates ?? Damn there's some misinformed theories out there:gob:


Hey Naki, I don't think he actually meant that the oil was a lubricant, I believe what he was suggesting was if we remove something from nature and replace it with something else, we may end up with unexpected and potentially catastrophic consequences.

[Naki Rat]

Hey Naki, I don't think he actually meant that the oil was a lubricant, I believe what he was suggesting was if we remove something from nature and replace it with something else, we may end up with unexpected and potentially catastrophic consequences.

Ah, we're not actually replacing the extracted oil with anything, except in the case of gas reinjection to 'stimulate' more oil out of depleted reservoirs..

[wysper]

Ah, we're not actually replacing the extracted oil with anything, except in the case of gas reinjection to 'stimulate' more oil out of depleted reservoirs..

alright, perhaps I will reduce it even more, fuck with mother nature and eventually she will fight back.

from science, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Not directly applicable here perhaps, but the idea is the same.

Spritually, Karma.

Christian, you reap what you sow.

etc

I believe the poster was suggesting that we can't act with impunity, ignorance of consequences will not stave off said consequences. You may not know what effects you actions will have. But they will have repercussions.

I guess it is similar with mining, you cant keep digging holes in the ground without destabilising the area.

[Genestho]

Survivors Account - Interview with CNN...http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/06/08/oil.rig.warning.signs/index.html

And here's the Conspiracy Theory........http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1367.htm

[BoristheBiter]

With the amount spewing out I'm surpried the oil compainies haven't jacked up their prices yet. Maybe that would be bad form at the present time though. 'Hey, we fucked up, we're killing the environment, but it's ok, after putting our prices up we're still making a profit'.

Got a letter from industrial lubricants saying its going up by 4-5%, BP and Castrol logo at bottom of page.

[george formby]

While this is a disaster that will be felt for a long time to come, no one (myself included) knows what goes on in the oil fields of third world countries.
I watched with disgust on Monday night the "Ross Kemp looks for pirates".
I could not even begin to describe how bad it was. He was in Nigeria and it was all because of the oil fields and corruption in the government.
I will try and find it on YouTube and post up here.
But it makes you think of what else we are not told about.

That programme blew me away. As Colonel Kurtz said "the horror, the horror".

If oil is supplanted with Nuclear power to run our electric vehicles what do generations to come have to look forward too?

Apparently a number of oil / methane plumes have been found around the drill head belching massive volumes of gas & oil into the ocean. They have never been seen before, knowbody can say what the consequences of this deluge, spill is to small a word, will be.

On a smaller scale the 3rd world has had to put up with gung ho oil recovery to keep the 1st world in cheap consumer goods for decades, I guess this whole disaster is Karma, a bitter, toxic wake up call.

[Naki Rat]

Survivors Account - Interview with CNN...http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/06/08/oil.rig.warning.signs/index.html

And here's the Conspiracy Theory........http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1367.htm

That CNN interview reinforces the accusations of the electronics tech who was interviewed on 60 Minutes. That bunch of guys are suffering post traumatic stress and grappling with discovering the realities of the 'safety' culture in their previous workplace. My earlier comments about the practicalities of employees who call for work to stop due to their safety concerns would also seem to be founded.

One thought however is that in a dynamic and potentially rapidly worsening situation such as they were faced with stopping is not an option and to try to is probably the worst thing you could do. Sort of like deciding to stop your motorcycle when you slip on a diesel spill, when what you should have done is taken more notice of the slick a km or two back down the road.

The conspiracy theory link doesn't deserve a second glance. Fantasy from the ignorant and/or deranged :bs:

[lorenzo.V]

The spill will be many times larger, with far greater reaching consequences than what people are told, just like any other major disaster, eg Chernobyl was a lot worse than the the russians let on. Only years later did we begin to unravel some of the effects. It's the same here. Accidents happen, but they will always be 'controlled' and played down to what thay think people will accept/tolerate etc.
It's always a PR/image/protection/control/money thing.
Don't trust The Machine!

[mashman]

The spill will be many times larger, with far greater reaching consequences than what people are told, just like any other major disaster, eg Chernobyl was a lot worse than the the russians let on. Only years later did we begin to unravel some of the effects. It's the same here. Accidents happen, but they will always be 'controlled' and played down to what thay think people will accept/tolerate etc.
It's always a PR/image/protection/control/money thing.
Don't trust The Machine!

and there isn't a damned thing you, I or anyone else can or will do about it... there are money and jobs on the line... letting Transocean/BP/Shell etc... fail will cause a depression the likes of which the planet has never known... in this day and age we don't do failure... we just do blame then business as usual...

[SPman]

Some recent quotes

A month after the blow-out, BP has finally been able to control and choke off the press.
BP said it will pay all 'legit' claims. Exxon said that in Valdez. What Exxon paid was a $400 million bonus to their CEO.http://www.gregpalast.com/slick-operator-the-bp-ive-known-too-well/#more-3650
http://www.gregpalast.com/smart-pig-bps-other-spill-this-week/#more-3759

[SPman]

From another site

Schlumberger people on board to do cement bond log told bp that they should kill the well or it'll turn bad, bp refused, schlumberger said "right we're out of here on the next chopper", company man said there's no choppers until next week so get back to work. Schlumberger rings onshore, charters their own chopper to evacuate and six hours after they go the explosion occurs.

anyone else heard this?

And another interesting site
http://drillingclub.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oildrilling

[twotyred]

here's the worst scenario i have yet come across for this catastrophe...


SUMMARY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING

The estimated super high pressure release of oil from under the earth's crust is between 80,000 to 100,000 barrels per day.

The flow of oil and toxic gases is bringing up with it... rocks and sand which causes the flow to create a sandblasting effect on the remaining well head device currently somewhat restricting the flow, as well as the drilled hole itself.

As the well head becomes worn it enlarges the passageway allowing an ever-increasing flow. Even if some device could be placed onto the existing wellhead, it would not be able to shut off the flow, because what remains of the existing wellhead would not be able to contain the pressure.

The well head piping is originally about 2 inches thick. It is now likely to be less than 1 inch thick, and thinning by each passing moment. The oil has now reached the Gulf Stream and is entering the Oceanic current which is at least four times stronger than the current in the Gulf, which will carry it throughout the world within 18 months.

The oil along with the gasses, including benzene and many other toxins, is deleting the oxygen in the water. This is killing all life in the ocean. Along with the oil along the shores, there will be many dead fish, etc. that will have to be gathered and disposed of.

SUMMARY OF EXPECTATIONS

At some point the drilled hole in the earth will enlarge itself beneath the wellhead to weaken the area the wellhead rests upon. The intense pressure will then push the wellhead off the hole allowing a direct unrestricted flow of oil, etc.

The hole will continue to increase in size allowing more and more oil to rise into the Gulf. After several billion barrels of oil have been released, the pressure within the massive cavity five miles beneath the ocean floor will begin to normalize.

This will allow the water, under the intense pressure at 1 mile deep, to be forced into the hole and the cavity where the oil was. The temperature at that depth is near 400 degrees, possibly more.

The water will be vaporized and turned into steam, creating an enormous amount of force, lifting the Gulf floor. It is difficult to know how much water will go down to the core and therefore, its not possible to fully calculate the rise of the floor.

The tsunami wave this will create will be anywhere from 20 to 80 feet high, possibly more. Then the floor will fall into the now vacant chamber. This is how nature will seal the hole.

Depending on the height of the tsunami, the ocean debris, oil, and existing structures that will be washed away on shore and inland, will leave the area from 50 to 200 miles inland devoid of life. Even if the debris is cleaned up, the contaminants that will be in the ground and water supply will prohibit re-population of these areas for an unknown number of years.

(End of scientists information release.) From Tom Buyea FL News Service

http://americanlibertyriders.ning.com/forum/topics/oil-volcano-pressure-too

[SPORK]

Ah yes, I generally DO get my trusted scientific theories from people posting under the username "Terminator Girl" on what seems to be an ill-informed right-wing gathering hole for the stupid.

[Naki Rat]

here's the worst scenario i have yet come across for this catastrophe... Etc etc blah blah


......

You shouldn't believe all that shit you find on the interweb. That drivel goes in the same bin as the North Koreans torpedoing the rig :bs::bs::bs:

[YellowDog]

Well it's not all bad.....

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6573FD20100609

[spacemonkey]

Well it's not all bad.....

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6573FD20100609

Actually it could be pretty bad.......

With a share price drop like that all the finance outfits that BP owes (and there will be a lot outstanding in a company like BP) will start screaming for their money back as it would have been based on the value of the company (as expressed in share price) as security....... Before Bopal no one would have thought that Union Carbide would go under either. And how much did what was left of that company pay towards cleanup/compensation?

[mashman]

Well it's not all bad.....

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6573FD20100609

Pah... it's only money... "BP said last week it has "plenty of" cash to deal with the problem " and yet we're still looking at a well spewing oil... have BP thought about fitting the fishing trawlers, that can't fish, with the rubber skirting required to help "guide" the oil? Anyone know any of these details? it's been a month and a half...

[Naki Rat]

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2AAa0gd7ClM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2AAa0gd7ClM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[BoristheBiter]

Funny

A bit to close to be super funny.

[mashman]

Ping Pong ball ... You're fucked! ha ha haaaaaa

[Genestho]

The conspiracy theory link doesn't deserve a second glance. Fantasy from the ignorant and/or deranged :bs:

Oh don't be like that, history says every major catastrophe needs one!! :lol:
....clearly you haven't read the Top 5 conspiracy theories from the GOM spill (http://myfivebest.com/five-ridiculous-conspiracy-theories-on-the-oil-spill/)........:shifty:

[rainman]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/massive-flow-of-bullshit-continues-to-gush-from-bp,17564/

What would life be without The Onion?

[Genestho]

EDIT: Link shows video of how the thing works..http://www.wwl.com/Kevin-Costner-s-anti-oil-machines-to-be-deployed/7441867


BP has given the green light for funding of a device that can separate oil from water.

Development of the machine, which uses a centrifuge to separate the fluids, has been backed by actor Kevin Costner to the tune of $25 million.

John Houghtaling, Costner's chief partner in the project, told WWL First News that the oil company has ordered 32 of the devices for use in the Gulf of Mexico.

"In a matter of weeks, we can be manufacturing ten of these a week," Houghtaling said. "So we're hoping by the first of August to have all 32 of these things in the Gulf."

[BoristheBiter]

http://www.wwl.com/Kevin-Costner-s-anti-oil-machines-to-be-deployed/7441867


BP has given the green light for funding of a device that can separate oil from water.

Development of the machine, which uses a centrifuge to separate the fluids, has been backed by actor Kevin Costner to the tune of $25 million.

John Houghtaling, Costner's chief partner in the project, told WWL First News that the oil company has ordered 32 of the devices for use in the Gulf of Mexico.

"In a matter of weeks, we can be manufacturing ten of these a week," Houghtaling said. "So we're hoping by the first of August to have all 32 of these things in the Gulf."

But 50 days ago they diddn't what to know.

[Genestho]

But 50 days ago they diddn't what to know.


Wonder if the change in mind has anything to do with this?

"The company is to adopt a new choreography to its oil spill response with Carl-Henric Svanberg, BP’s chairman, expected to lead the company’s political fight to maintain control over its destiny, including key decisions such as the dividend and the level and type of claims it believes are reasonable for it to pay.

Bob Dudley, BP’s managing director and an American from Mississippi, will be in day-to-day control of BP’s Gulf of Mexico response which has been organised into a separate business unit. Mr Hayward, who has been leading BP’s oil spill response in the US for the past 40 days, will return to a more orthodox chief executive’s role at the company’s London headquarters, travelling back to the US on a regular basis. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/7816934/BP-oil-spill-Dudley-to-become-face-of-US-response-as-Svanberg-focuses-on-politics.html

[davereid]

BP has given the green light for funding of a device that can separate oil from water.

You of course are thinking of the machine as able to separate oil from water, thus allowing clean water to be returned to the Gulf.

BP are thinking of the machine as able separate oil from water, thus providing oil without the inconvenience of drilling for it.

And there is plenty of raw product to be working with. Might even be a cash handout from US taxpayers for a few of the machines.


Edit : I have watched the video. I am surprised the device has a patent, as it is a simple centrifuge doing nothing different to the thousands in use every day, making everything from blood products to nuclear (bomb) fuels.

[Naki Rat]

EDIT: Link shows video of how the thing works..http://www.wwl.com/Kevin-Costner-s-anti-oil-machines-to-be-deployed/7441867


BP has given the green light for funding of a device that can separate oil from water.

Development of the machine, which uses a centrifuge to separate the fluids, has been backed by actor Kevin Costner to the tune of $25 million.

John Houghtaling, Costner's chief partner in the project, told WWL First News that the oil company has ordered 32 of the devices for use in the Gulf of Mexico.

"In a matter of weeks, we can be manufacturing ten of these a week," Houghtaling said. "So we're hoping by the first of August to have all 32 of these things in the Gulf."

At 200 or even 400 gallons per minute capacity they are going to need a shitload of these things operating for a bloody long time in the Gulf of Mexico.

And as bad as this situation is, and continues to grow, the shit hitting the fan is going to increase out of sight at the arrival of this season's hurricanes. (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/index.shtml)

[Genestho]

At 200 or even 400 gallons per minute capacity they are going to need a shitload of these things operating for a bloody long time in the Gulf of Mexico.

And as bad as this situation is, and continues to grow, the shit hitting the fan is going to increase out of sight at the arrival of this season's hurricanes. (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/index.shtml)


You really meant oil hitting the fan, eh NR?

Day 52 (June 11) flight over the Gulf with Marine Biologist Carl Safina - President of Blue Ocean Institute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBPIPWqOziw&feature=player_embedded#!

"putting the oil company in charge of the cleanup is like putting the rapist in charge of the abortion.."
Good to see independant journalism coming out.

[YellowDog]

An American friend of mine said to put a wedding ring around the hole so it stops putting out.

But it appears from the live feed that it has either stopped or it has got so much worse that they have changed cameras to show men in orange boiler suits wandering around?

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/incident_response/STAGING/local_assets/html/Skandi_ROV2.html

[Naki Rat]

I expect what you were describing as "men in orange boiler suits" is offshore workers in industry standard hi-viz overalls. That would be because that ROV was back on deck with the camera still online. The overall situation is far from over.

There are 12 ROV feeds available here (http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9033572&contentId=7062605) which are operational depending on whether each particular ROV is in service at the time.

I caught this (http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0009/2327751/sat-20100619-0905-Peter_Maass_Oil-m048.asx) on National Radio yesterday which is of great interest and really puts the overall situation into perspective. For example have you considered the fact that we are wringing our hands over this event on a website that wouldn't exist if not for the oil industry and its products :rolleyes: It's a 40 minute interview so grab a coffee and pull up a chair.

[McWild]

Not sure if it has been posted as I haven't read the whole thread, but I found http://www.ifitwasmyhome.com/ really useful in visualising it. It puts the area of earth affected by the spill over a location of your choosing. Scary shit.

[Genestho]

I expect what you were describing as "men in orange boiler suits" is offshore workers in industry standard hi-viz overalls. That would be because that ROV was back on deck with the camera still online. The overall situation is far from over.

There are 12 ROV feeds available here (http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9033572&contentId=7062605) which are operational depending on whether each particular ROV is in service at the time.

I caught this (http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0009/2327751/sat-20100619-0905-Peter_Maass_Oil-m048.asx) on National Radio yesterday which is of great interest and really puts the overall situation into perspective. For example have you considered the fact that we are wringing our hands over this event on a website that wouldn't exist if not for the oil industry and its products :rolleyes: It's a 40 minute interview so grab a coffee and pull up a chair.

Eh, far from over alright, infact it's looking like it just keeps getting worse, with the talk of fissures in the seabed, air quality declining from the dispersants, methane plumes...
George W Bushes energy advisor commented June 15th link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb2u4_QSblo)

No hand wringing here mate, see post #7, my thoughts have been I'm not so sure that we're being shown the whole picture with allegations of media being banned from the site.

[Winston001]

Good discussion. At the core of the problem as an earlier poster said, is mankinds love affair with oil. Hey, I wouldn't do without it. Plastics, fuel, fertiliser, rubber, the list of oil-derivatives is huge. Companies such as BP push the boundaries of engineering science simply to meet the insatiable demand. These businesses are owned and operated daily by human beings - none of whom have the god-like ability to plug a hole 5000 feet in the ocean floor. It just ain't that simple.

If the demand for oil was more muted - say, like the market for cotton, then oil exploration would proceed at a more careful pace. We have all played a part in this disaster and ironically the USA which is the most oil-addicted nation, for once faces the real life effects. Rather bitter-sweet for countries like Nigeria which have had decades of oil-industry pollution.

[CookMySock]

So much lovely fuel being spilled! :cry:

It reminds me why you shouldn't drink and drive! You might spill some! :lol:

Steve

[mashman]

At 200 or even 400 gallons per minute capacity they are going to need a shitload of these things operating for a bloody long time in the Gulf of Mexico.

And as bad as this situation is, and continues to grow, the shit hitting the fan is going to increase out of sight at the arrival of this season's hurricanes. (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/index.shtml)

Well looks like we're ushering in a new method of collecting oil... a real cynic would say this was the goal all along... that oil platforms etc... cost too much to build, run and a blah blah... chuck a few of these things in the water circling the hole that you're about to drill and presto... instant cost(ner) savings...

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/7429857/bp-deploys-costners-oil-machine-in-gulf-cleanup/

[mashman]

"Methane, a natural gas, dissolves in seawater and some scientists think measuring methane could give a more accurate picture of the extent of the oil spill."

Does that mean if Methane is chargeable under ETS that land locked countries should pay more and islands shouldn't worry about it because the seawater that surrounds the island will dissolve the methane? just wonderin like...


Methane in the Gulf... Still a fuckin mess

"
In some areas, the crew of 12 scientists found concentrations that were 100,000 times higher than normal.

"We saw them approach a million times above background concentrations" in some areas, Kessler said."
"

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/technology/7444945/methane-in-gulf-astonishingly-high-u-s-scientist/

[george formby]

Not sure if it has been posted as I haven't read the whole thread, but I found http://www.ifitwasmyhome.com/ really useful in visualising it. It puts the area of earth affected by the spill over a location of your choosing. Scary shit.

Holy s@#t. at it's narrowest point it stretches from Auckland to Kaitaia!

[marty]

the SKANDI rov's usually give the best pictures on the BP site

[marty]

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/incident_response/STAGING/local_assets/html/Skandi_ROV2.html

direct to player: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:45683.asx?bkup=45684


</EMBED>

[Naki Rat]

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/incident_response/STAGING/local_assets/html/Skandi_ROV2.html

direct to player: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:45683.asx?bkup=45684


</EMBED>

Great improvement to run the feed to Media Player. How to do that with the other ROV feeds?

[oldrider]

Hope this not a repost, I was reading a medical report and this (and many others) clip was on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QwsCHd7Lcg&feature=player_embedded

Serious shit IMHO.

[Edbear]

This story is not going to end anytime soon! The more we hear about it the worse it gets...

[spacemonkey]

Hope you have had your fill of Kai moana of late cos over the next few years (Decades??) the price of seafood is going to go through the roof!!
This continuing spill is nailing one of the biggest fisheries over there causing shortages. The Yanks will start buying in from elsewhere and the importing of seafood is going to put prices under a lot of pressure worldwide.

[marty]

Great improvement to run the feed to Media Player. How to do that with the other ROV feeds?

open the in-web stream, right click on the streaming video and open properties. cut and paste the http that you see into a browser and it will open in the media player. i've saved the media players as favorites - it's a much better picture i reckon

[Naki Rat]

Interesting and disturbing interview (http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0010/2335681/sun-20100627-0840-Carl_Safina_-_Toxic_Soup_in_the_Gulf-m048.asx) on National Radio this morning on the GOM spill, particularly on the use of chemical dispersants :(

[Elysium]

speaking of oil. I found this of interest.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article18948.html

[Neshi]

But then I hear that oil reserves replenish themselves naturally, but I dont beleive anything I hear from the media these days.

it's true, it does replenish. But it takes billions of years.. maybe in our lifetime it will have replenished by a gallon.. or less.

[Naki Rat]

speaking of oil. I found this of interest.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article18948.html

Along similar lines, check out The End Of Suburbia (http://www.endofsuburbia.com/) It gives a well presented exposay of the likely future of civilization as oil supplies run out.

[Winston001]

Along similar lines, check out The End Of Suburbia (http://www.endofsuburbia.com/) It gives a well presented exposay of the likely future of civilization as oil supplies run out.

Yes there are numerous dyspeptic predictions that urban life is doomed. No more cheap air travel, fewer cars, a return to villages and small towns as people become unable to move about. I don't believe it.

Any view of human society shows the dramatic effects of technology. It took hundreds of thousands of years to move from using wood and stone tools to the leap to iron. Then quickly to bronze, taming of horses, agriculture, and recently steel. A century ago motor vehicles were uncommon, electricity was a wonder, and the telephone was becoming accepted. Today small children wander around with cell-phones...... The rise of technology is unstoppable.

So oil will be superceded. The most obvious source of new energy is atomic fusion. Already the Europeans are working on this in France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER. The problems are not easy, nor is how we store and transfer energy. But again there are remarkable ideas being experimented with for future batteries and a technology will be found.

30 years ago Jerry Pournelle pointed out that the complex hydrocarbons in oil are far too valuable to mankind to waste by simply burning. Looks like that realisation is finally coming to fruition.

[Jonathan]

I agree with the above post. It is all basic economics. Supply and demand - costs and benefits. For the time being while this (relatively) cheap and abundant resource continues to gush from the earth there is little impetus for companies to pour time and resources into R & D for alternatives.

Eventually, when oil supplies dwindle and the costs soar and the net benefit of focusing on oil extraction drops below the net cost, oil giants such as BP are not simply going to sit on their hands and fret about it. It will become necessary for these companies' survival to find alternatives at any cost - and as quickly as possible to head off the competition. So, in short, when the oil runs out alternatives WILL be found and these alternatives will quite possibly surpass oil in efficiency and cleanliness.

[Winston001]

.....oil giants such as BP are not simply going to sit on their hands and fret about it. It will become necessary for these companies' survival to find alternatives at any cost - and as quickly as possible to head off the competition.

Its happened already. All of the major oil companies now brand themselves as "energy" businesses and specifically BP rebranded in 2001 - "Beyond Petroleum". These mega companies are pushing and shoving each other to grab the next technology so they don't lose their place in the sun. Pretty astute.

[BoristheBiter]

I agree with the above post. It is all basic economics. Supply and demand - costs and benefits. For the time being while this (relatively) cheap and abundant resource continues to gush from the earth there is little impetus for companies to pour time and resources into R & D for alternatives.

Eventually, when oil supplies dwindle and the costs soar and the net benefit of focusing on oil extraction drops below the net cost, oil giants such as BP are not simply going to sit on their hands and fret about it. It will become necessary for these companies' survival to find alternatives at any cost - and as quickly as possible to head off the competition. So, in short, when the oil runs out alternatives WILL be found and these alternatives will quite possibly surpass oil in efficiency and cleanliness.

I think you have that a bit backwards. I think you mean when the oils costs soar it becomes cost effective for the other companys to research new fuels, as the oil compnys will just put the costs onto the cost of oil and not lose anything.

The problem stems for an idea that we need a fuel in the first place as there is no money in suppling an item that is free to use, nence the move to hydrogen, it might be clean but it will still cost you to get it.

The oil/energy/fuels industrie have no reason to stop doing what they are doing as we will continue to need oil for the hundreds of products they make, lest of all to fuel transport.
This is why the electric cars are such a failure, you have to get it from somewhere, if not it is free and as there is no money in that no on wants to make it happen. Look how long they have had the solar challange going on for, and other than a supplamenty means to heat your pool it is a waste of time unless if you have millions needed to power your home.

[Jonathan]

I think you have that a bit backwards. I think you mean when the oils costs soar it becomes cost effective for the other companys to research new fuels, as the oil compnys will just put the costs onto the cost of oil and not lose anything.
Yep that's what I mean. When the cost of extaction increases to a level that if the oil companies were to pass on the cost to consumers the consumers would find it more economical to turn to alternatives.

[Neshi]

Its happened already. All of the major oil companies now brand themselves as "energy" businesses and specifically BP rebranded in 2001 - "Beyond Petroleum". These mega companies are pushing and shoving each other to grab the next technology so they don't lose their place in the sun. Pretty astute.

really? it's weird that technology at risk management and containment hasn't changed for over 30 years.. All they've advanced is drilling further and deeper..
just look at this, it's agonizing...
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GHmhxpQEGPo&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GHmhxpQEGPo&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[mashman]

Excellent find Neshi... but like you say, agonising to watch... there's no money in safety.

[Naki Rat]

Excellent find Neshi... but like you say, agonising to watch... there's no money in safety.

Likewise, and along the same lines of not having to find an alternative for oil until it is absolutely necessary they also seem to follow the same stategy in their risk management :shit:

[mashman]

Likewise, and along the same lines of not having to find an alternative for oil until it is absolutely necessary they also seem to follow the same stategy in their risk management :shit:

Aye, no money worries = no need to change a fuckin thing... costs less to train a new recruit than it does to implement safety gear i bet :yes:

[SPman]

If you think this spill is bad, wait until next year when they start drilling in the Arctic (BP and Shell are ready and waiting until January, when the temporary moratorium will be lifted by Obama) - a similar occurrence up there would cause transpolar environmental damage on a scale never before seen........

[Winston001]

Likewise, and along the same lines of not having to find an alternative for oil until it is absolutely necessary they also seem to follow the same stategy in their risk management :shit:

I know what you mean but really, there is no "they". Its all of us. We love oil, can't get enough of the stuff. Its cheap and very high energy for its size. There is no other abundant compound on Earth which provides as much bang for your buck as oil. 14 times more efficient than bio-fuel. Solar can't compete either although we live in hope.

The only other option is atomic fission or preferably fusion but these are not easily portable and involve environmental risks.

Oil companies, platforms, wells, tankers etc - none of these would exist if we humans were not entirely reliant upon oil for our lives. So the accidents, the spills, the pollution are mere side-effects, a consequence of our insatiable demand for the stuff. If it's unacceptable then the only way to send that message is for you and I to boycott everything oil.

Good luck with that.

[YellowDog]

There are alternatives for oil usage in many areas. The huge investment in the oil industry and price of oil would drop so significantly should alternative options be made available that there is a strong desire to protect this industry until every last drop has been squeezed out and sold.

[Genestho]

Day 71, 29th June - Tropical Storm 'Alex' on its way to South Texas.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6uw_HTlc04

[avgas]

Excellent find Neshi... but like you say, agonising to watch... there's no money in safety.
Nah it doesn't cost money. In fact the opposite - it costs money not too, but it all depends as to who's signature is on the expense form as to if it gets approved for funding.

WOLF WOLF WOLF!!!! FUCKING WOLF!!!!!

Ah fuck it, no one of value listens.
All the fat cats will look at you as if your a heretic.

[Naki Rat]

This lady is making a lot of sense. She's voicing what a lot of pissed off Americans (and others) are thinking :mad:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DUKlhKG0leI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DUKlhKG0leI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[mashman]

Day 71, 29th June - Tropical Storm 'Alex' on its way to South Texas.

I wonder if "Alex's biggest threat, rain" will be rainbow coloured and awful sticky too?

[marty]

There's a saying in aviation - 'if you think safety is expensive, try making a mistake'

[Madmax]

ethanol
caster oil
synth oil
why do we still drill for it

[mashman]

This lady is making a lot of sense. She's voicing what a lot of pissed off Americans (and others) are thinking :mad:


And yet no news from the American people... She is bloody good...

[mashman]

ethanol
caster oil
synth oil
why do we still drill for it

it's the most economically viable substance. Land costs money. The sea is virtually free.

[mashman]

Nah it doesn't cost money. In fact the opposite - it costs money not too, but it all depends as to who's signature is on the expense form as to if it gets approved for funding.

WOLF WOLF WOLF!!!! FUCKING WOLF!!!!!

Ah fuck it, no one of value listens.
All the fat cats will look at you as if your a heretic.

lol, noone knows what to do, they're all too busy protecting the business, they'll get it tidied up in time, it's only oil, and then realise they have just opened up some nice new condo space for after the cleanup.

[Naki Rat]

All the H2S coming out of that well along with the oil and natural gas, and ending up in the atmosphere will end up as H2SO4 (sulphuric acid) :eek5:

[mashman]

All the H2S coming out of that well along with the oil and natural gas, and ending up in the atmosphere will end up as H2SO4 (sulphuric acid) :eek5:

:gob: got any literature for that (i didn't do chemistry)... sounds like a messy day to be an American.

[Naki Rat]

And yet no news from the American people... She is bloody good...

She's got more balls than Campbell, Sainsberry and the rest of them combined.

[mashman]

The EPA (http://www.epa.gov/bpspill/odor.html) has had reports from people smelling gas, the potential health hazards :shutup:, questioning the source location of the new odour WTF?

[Naki Rat]

:gob: got any literature for that (i didn't do chemistry)... sounds like a messy day to be an American.

H2S is hydrogen sulphide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide), one of the most feared gases in the oil workers' environment. It is probably behind much of the skin blistering, respiratory problems, crop damage (acid rain) and marine life kill that is being reported in the GOM. It combines with oxygen in the body if inhaled with nasty and often fatal effects. Don't know how accurate the mass evacuation plan rumours are but H2S could be a factor there too.

[mashman]

Any idea what it would make if it combines with salt water?

[Naki Rat]

The EPA (http://www.epa.gov/bpspill/odor.html) has had reports from people smelling gas, the potential health hazards :shutup:, questioning the source location of the new odour WTF?

The good side of smelling H2S as 'rotten eggs' is that it indicates it is at sub-lethal levels "At 100–150 ppm the olfactory nerve is paralyzed after a few inhalations, and the sense of smell disappears, often together with awareness of danger".

I notice the EPA link doesn't mention the dispersant Corexit which is also a gas hazard.

[Naki Rat]

Any idea what it would make if it combines with salt water?

From the bottom of the Wikipedia link from my earlier post:

"Hydrogen sulfide has been implicated in some of the several mass extinctions that have occurred in the Earth's past. In particular, a buildup of hydrogen sulfide in the atmosphere may have caused the Permian-Triassic extinction event 252 million years ago.[34]

Organic residues from these extinction boundaries indicate that the oceans were anoxic (oxygen-depleted) and had species of shallow plankton that metabolized H2S. The formation of H2S may have been initiated by massive volcanic eruptions, which emitted CO2 and methane into the atmosphere, which warmed the oceans, lowering their capacity to absorb oxygen that would otherwise oxidize H2S. The increased levels of hydrogen sulfide could have killed oxygen-generating plants as well as depleted the ozone layer, causing further stress. Small H2S blooms have been detected in modern times in the Dead Sea and in the Atlantic ocean off the coast of Namibia."

In other words it will deplete the oxygen in the seawater and raise its acidity.

[mashman]

I notice the EPA link doesn't mention the dispersant Corexit which is also a gas hazard.

sounds like nasty stuff. According to wiki it was used during the exxon valdez incident and left quite an impression.

[b]"Corexit 9527, considered by the EPA to be an acute health hazard, is stated by its manufacturer to be potentially harmful to red blood cells, the kidneys and the liver, and may irritate eyes and skin.[24][13] The chemical 2-butoxyethanol, found in Corexit 9527, was identified as having caused lasting health problems in workers involved in the cleanup of the Exxon Valdez oil spill.[25] According to the Alaska Community Action on Toxics, the use of Corexit during the Exxon Valdez oil spill caused people "respiratory, nervous system, liver, kidney and blood disorders".[15] Like 9527, 9500 can cause hemolysis (rupture of blood cells) and may also cause internal bleeding.[4][/b[" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corexit)

[mashman]

From the bottom of the Wikipedia link from my earlier post:

"Hydrogen sulfide has been implicated in some of the several mass extinctions that have occurred in the Earth's past. In particular, a buildup of hydrogen sulfide in the atmosphere may have caused the Permian-Triassic extinction event 252 million years ago.[34]

Organic residues from these extinction boundaries indicate that the oceans were anoxic (oxygen-depleted) and had species of shallow plankton that metabolized H2S. The formation of H2S may have been initiated by massive volcanic eruptions, which emitted CO2 and methane into the atmosphere, which warmed the oceans, lowering their capacity to absorb oxygen that would otherwise oxidize H2S. The increased levels of hydrogen sulfide could have killed oxygen-generating plants as well as depleted the ozone layer, causing further stress. Small H2S blooms have been detected in modern times in the Dead Sea and in the Atlantic ocean off the coast of Namibia."

In other words it will deplete the oxygen in the seawater and raise its acidity.

uck 10 chars

[mashman]

In other words it will deplete the oxygen in the seawater and raise its acidity.

Heavier than normal seawater?

[Winston001]

There are alternatives for oil usage in many areas.

Yes but No. Give us a list of the alternatives and their cost - eg. a $2/litre substitute for petrol. Google the efficiency of bio-fuel. It's either negative (ie takes more energy to make than it produces) or at best produces 20% more energy. Oil straight out of the ground produces 1400% of the energy required to dig it up.


ethanol
caster oil
synth oil
why do we still drill for it

See above. :D Do some research and look at the figures for producing hydrocarbon alternatives. Same with wind and solar.

Nevertheless the day will come when alternative energy sources such as algae are economic but the technology right now is only getting started. Plus lets be blunt - oil is cheap. Double the price with bio-fuel and see where peoples principles go.....

[Winston001]

This lady is making a lot of sense. She's voicing what a lot of pissed off Americans (and others) are thinking :mad:



Excellent find, bling to you. I wonder how many Americans though will actually see this. Its a big country and intelligent commentary gets lost.

[pete376403]

synth oil
why do we still drill for it

What do you think they make the synthetic oil out of? IE where do the chemicals come from?

[Quasievil]

:shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup:

[Naki Rat]

Fish breath oxygen in seawater so it will kill them, and it will acidify the water.

[mashman]

Yup and then on to where ever the gulf stream goes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream)

[spacemonkey]

Yup and then on to where ever the gulf stream goes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream)

Actually that reminds me of something...... With all the Sepo rants about it in the media drowning out everyone else, I've yet to see or hear anything out of the other carribian nations especially Cuba, and the north shore of Cuba is def going to be made a disaster area by this. :(

[Naki Rat]

Yes but No. Give us a list of the alternatives and their cost - eg. a $2/litre substitute for petrol. Google the efficiency of bio-fuel. It's either negative (ie takes more energy to make than it produces) or at best produces 20% more energy. Oil straight out of the ground produces 1400% of the energy required to dig it up.........

Nevertheless the day will come when alternative energy sources such as algae are economic but the technology right now is only getting started. Plus lets be blunt - oil is cheap. Double the price with bio-fuel and see where peoples principles go.....
The energy contained in crude oil and associated hydrocarbons originally comes from the sun's energy used in photosynthesis by the plants that the oil is made from. This energy is added to by the pressures of gravity (compression) and Earth's internal heat. That energy is essentially free for the taking when we drill holes in the ground for it but it is obviously a finite resource.

To duplicate an energy source synthetically we must input similar amounts of energy, by whatever method, so that we can then release that energy when needed as fuel. The energy source for making fuel may be solar, photosynthetic (algae), chemical, atomic, or whatever, but the process quickly becomes very input heavy and so uneconomical compared to oil. In other words you don't get nothing for nothing and we are rapidly using up the cheap stuff.

[spacemonkey]

The energy contained in crude oil and associated hydrocarbons originally comes from the sun's energy used in photosynthesis by the plants that the oil is made from.

Ahh that's a not totally accurate, as how those hydrocarbons form, and from what, and how long it takes is all still under a lot of debate and is unsettled as a theory,
Scientists are still unsure over the origins as far as I'm aware..... Feel free to correct me if im wrong and the debate over it has been setled. :)

[Naki Rat]

Ahh that's a not totally accurate, as how those hydrocarbons form, and from what, and how long it takes is all still under a lot of debate and is unsettled as a theory,
Scientists are still unsure over the origins as far as I'm aware..... Feel free to correct me if im wrong and the debate over it has been setled. :)

"According to generally accepted theory, petroleum is derived from ancient biomass." See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum) and most other references available.

[Genestho]

sounds like nasty stuff. According to wiki it was used during the exxon valdez incident and left quite an impression.

[b]"Corexit 9527, considered by the EPA to be an acute health hazard, is stated by its manufacturer to be potentially harmful to red blood cells, the kidneys and the liver, and may irritate eyes and skin.[24][13] The chemical 2-butoxyethanol, found in Corexit 9527, was identified as having caused lasting health problems in workers involved in the cleanup of the Exxon Valdez oil spill.[25] According to the Alaska Community Action on Toxics, the use of Corexit during the Exxon Valdez oil spill caused people "respiratory, nervous system, liver, kidney and blood disorders".[15] Like 9527, 9500 can cause hemolysis (rupture of blood cells) and may also cause internal bleeding.[4][/b[" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corexit)
Safety Data Sheet
https://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/posted/2931/Corexit_EC9500A_MSDS.539287.pdf

June 30 Press release from Nalco

"We are pleased that the EPA's (US Environmental Protection Agency) initial testing results of dispersant alternatives continue to show the safety of our COREXIT 9500 dispersants," said Dr. David Horsup, Division Vice President, Research and Development for Nalco's Energy Services division.

In announcing the test results, EPA Assistant Administrator Paul Anastas said the EPA is not recommending any change in dispersants used to fight the Gulf spill's impact."
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nalco-statement-on-epa-dispersant-test-results-2010-06-30?reflink=MW_news_stmp

The tests looked at the dispersants alone and did not look at effects of the chemicals when mixed with oil.

[mashman]

Safety Data Sheet
https://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/posted/2931/Corexit_EC9500A_MSDS.539287.pdf

I would have had a look but it throws me a rather unsavoury certificates error... did you download a copy?

[Neshi]

The only other option is atomic fission or preferably fusion but these are not easily portable and involve environmental risks.


How can you say that? Especially after this spill...
Drilling for oil is as much a hazard for the environment as nuclear power, if not worse..

Chernobyl surroundings nowadays is a haven for wildlife with rare species that have returned there after centuries like the lynx, wild boar, wolves, bears etc. They even made the Exclusion Zone an official wildlife santcuary. The animals examined showed a tolerance for the elaveted radiation levels.
There is no way animals will develop a tolerance for oil in the water.

=====

As for the person asking for an alternative to oil as a source of power. What about an engine running solely on water, reacting with aluminium to create power. The only pollution would be the process of refining Bauxite into aluminium.
"A 900 kg car runs 600 km on 20 litres of water and 1 kg of aluminium."

http://anon99.tripod.com/water_engine/index2.html

Most incredible thing about this is that is was invented in 1981.. so it's been known for 30 years, why haven't we heard about it but are fiddling around with electrolysis and the storage of hydrogen... this solution would put oil industries out of business, while at the moment they can still make money out of oil so I reckon they keep it quiet. All one would need is to buy a car or motorbike with an engine of this, and one would be able to fill it up at home. So the only money would go to the purchase of the vehicle, not the fuel. Any idea why the inventor hasn't been seen or heard of... ?

[avgas]

you gotta love the fact that they spend $$$$$$$'s on getting oil out of dirt - but not willing to spend the same to get it out of water

[Neshi]

I'm having a discussion on another board about the same thing. Someone posted some interesting stuff. Rabbit hole is deep.


Anyone that does any research, and i personally know 2 people, one of which is a direct friend of one of the survivors has explained the situation in much greater detail then even this engineer. The level of corruption is insane, the complete disreguard for safety, life in general even was totally ignored. and they were being directly ordered to do things that majority of the works knew full well they shouldn't do. Which bags the question, why'd they do it? Well considering, it was costing BP and the drillers over half a million dollars PER DAY just to have the rig sitting there. Additionally they were being told to do things they knew would cause an explosion and potential problems. YES the well was several times more powerful, however the well, the casing everything was so purposely and poorly handled it cannot be coincidence since they were repeatedly told to ignore all failsafes. Even the regulations set in place were ignored/voided and cast aside. There was more money to be made by causing this problem then there was to actually get any oil in the first place.

The survivors of the explosion were LOCKED in their hotel rooms for 40+ hours until every single one of them signed confidentiality forms and basically signed the truth away. Some are off record and only to friends around telling a few of the very important bits of information.

Don't forget also this EXACT same company (under a different name) was responcible for the deep (but much more shallow) off shore well drilling with the EXACT same mistakes made with the EXACT same solution and with a near exact same outcome in 1979. You couldn't match them up any better, it's a carbon copy. It's completely sickening.

BP and the sub companies and related companies are making millions off the cleanup that they are doing a horrible job doing. The chemicals they are using to clean up are doing more damage even.

Crude oil in itself is deadly yes, however it is still a natural compound and it breaks down steadily and nature has shown it to right itself.

However with the introduction of these chemicals they are using to "cleanup" it is causing massive devistation, the oil is actually evaporating in many places and sinking in others. The result of which has shown already evidence of oil coming many many miles INLAND and destroying hundreds if not millions of acres of land.


btw heres some video evidence of the same issue occuring.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6Cg3qtT7_Ts&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6Cg3qtT7_Ts&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Winston001]

How can you say that? Especially after this spill...
Drilling for oil is as much a hazard for the environment as nuclear power, if not worse..

Chernobyl surroundings nowadays is a haven for wildlife with rare species that have returned there after centuries like the lynx, wild boar, wolves, bears etc. They even made the Exclusion Zone an official wildlife santcuary. The animals examined showed a tolerance for the elaveted radiation levels.



Very refreshing. You are right but I didn't want to get away from the main theme. In fact the atomic bomb sites of Hiroshima and Nagasaki showed a remarkable resurgence of insect and plant life quite shortly after the explosions. These were places that common belief said would be sterile for 100 years. It ain't true.

Nevertheless for at least 10 years after a nuclear accident or spill, its not a safe place to wande around for humans. Heavy isotopes tend to muck up our DNA rather badly. So nuclear does have its environmental risks, just not as bad as the common belief would have us think.

[Winston001]

Just to put another side to the story, here is a blog which points out Louisiana thrives on the oil industry - loves it, and the spill story is partly driven by media ratings. Oiled flamingos sell.

http://open.salon.com/blog/fay_paxton/2010/06/08/americans_love_bullshit

A clip:

"Oil is as important to Louisiana as seafood, the Brown Pelican and the Mardi Gras.
Louisiana is the hub of the domestic oil industry, so in the wake of an oil spill, why wasn’t Louisiana prepared?
Oil companies spill as much as 700,000 gallons of oil each and every year. Over 50% of those spills are in Louisiana. What do they do about them?

The media seduces the public with heartbreaking pictures of oil soaked pelicans and marsh but never once reported that on April 10^thof this year, a Chevron pipeline leaked some 18,000 gallons of oil right into the Delta National Wildlife Refuge! Pipelines leak all the time.


Democratic strategist, James Carville blasted President Obama, …”he could have been involved with the families of these eleven people”; a reference to the eleven people who died in the BP blast. Less than a month before the oil spill, 29 coalminers died in a coal mine blast in West Virginia. Anybody remember them?"

[Naki Rat]

Just to put another side to the story, here is a blog which points out Louisiana thrives on the oil industry - loves it, and the spill story is partly driven by media ratings. Oiled flamingos sell.

http://open.salon.com/blog/fay_paxton/2010/06/08/americans_love_bullshit

A clip:

"Oil is as important to Louisiana as seafood, the Brown Pelican and the Mardi Gras.
Louisiana is the hub of the domestic oil industry, so in the wake of an oil spill, why wasn’t Louisiana prepared?
Oil companies spill as much as 700,000 gallons of oil each and every year. Over 50% of those spills are in Louisiana. What do they do about them?
The issue of 1,500, 000 gallons/day for 74 days (and counting) puts this on a whole different level.

.......
Democratic strategist, James Carville blasted President Obama, …”he could have been involved with the families of these eleven people”; a reference to the eleven people who died in the BP blast. Less than a month before the oil spill, 29 coalminers died in a coal mine blast in West Virginia. Anybody remember them?"
There has to be an element of suspicion from any US politician commenting on this issue at present due to the substantial oil industry lobby on local senators and the like. But again the combined scale of this disaster tends to put such comments into perspective.

[spacemonkey]

Just to put another side to the story, here is a blog which points out Louisiana thrives on the oil industry - loves it, and the spill story is partly driven by media ratings. Oiled flamingos sell.

That may be, but does the Louisianna ENVIRONMENT thrive on it?

I think not.

[Winston001]

As for the person asking for an alternative to oil as a source of power. What about an engine running solely on water, reacting with aluminium to create power. The only pollution would be the process of refining Bauxite into aluminium.
"A 900 kg car runs 600 km on 20 litres of water and 1 kg of aluminium."

http://anon99.tripod.com/water_engine/index2.html

Most incredible thing about this is that is was invented in 1981.. so it's been known for 30 years, why haven't we heard about it but are fiddling around with electrolysis and the storage of hydrogen... this solution would put oil industries out of business, while at the moment they can still make money out of oil so I reckon they keep it quiet. All one would need is to buy a car or motorbike with an engine of this, and one would be able to fill it up at home. So the only money would go to the purchase of the vehicle, not the fuel. Any idea why the inventor hasn't been seen or heard of... ?

Well this is only a guess after a quick google but I'd say petrol is more efficient per kilo than manufacturing aluminium per kilo. And this engine relies upon hydrogen technology which you'll be aware is still being grappled with by auto-engineers today.


It is NOT POSSIBLE within the known laws of physics to fuel an engine solely with water. Except for fish. But they don't study physics so they don't count.....:D

[spacemonkey]

Turning Bauxite into Aluminium takes serious amounts of electricity, and 1kg or Ally costs more than the same amount of petrol by a long way I'm guessing.

[Naki Rat]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hV0TnjnuFww&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hV0TnjnuFww&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Day 79 and counting :mad:

[mashman]

At least they're using all of the resources they have :mad:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpmi00t3oeI&feature=related

[mashman]

Safety Data Sheet
https://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/posted/2931/Corexit_EC9500A_MSDS.539287.pdf

June 30 Press release from Nalco

"We are pleased that the EPA's (US Environmental Protection Agency) initial testing results of dispersant alternatives continue to show the safety of our COREXIT 9500 dispersants," said Dr. David Horsup, Division Vice President, Research and Development for Nalco's Energy Services division.

In announcing the test results, EPA Assistant Administrator Paul Anastas said the EPA is not recommending any change in dispersants used to fight the Gulf spill's impact."
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nalco-statement-on-epa-dispersant-test-results-2010-06-30?reflink=MW_news_stmp

The tests looked at the dispersants alone and did not look at effects of the chemicals when mixed with oil.

Bit cheesy towards the end, but a contradictory view of Corexit 9500 "safety" claims...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Evqr855igU&feature=related

[mashman]

There's nothing like a good conspiracy theory... According to the interweb (i know i know), weeks before the Deep Horizon disaster, Obama's portfolio managers, BP CEO Tony Hatward and Goldman Sachs all dumped shitloads of BP shares... preparing for the worst perhaps??? who knows...

Other problems? Again, on the interweb, but there are comfirmed rumours (yes i understand how that sounds) of a large Gas Bubble that's building underneath, reports so far are 10 - 20km in width... this is sparking fears that once enough oil has leaked out and the sea pressure is greater, that the hole will fill with sea water, vapourise (it's fuckin hot, ?400 degC?) and increase the pressure causing the bubble to finally pop or explode. This will unleash a Tsunami off the east coast of the US (very low lying areas) and send a deadly gas cloud in whichever direction the wind is blowing...

So much science, so little honesty. Who knows...

[pete376403]

and when these all go off at once...
27,000 Abandoned Wells Lurk Under Gulf
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-news-section/49-49/2373-27000-abandoned-wells-lurk-under-gulf

[Neshi]

There's nothing like a good conspiracy theory... According to the interweb (i know i know), weeks before the Deep Horizon disaster, Obama's portfolio managers, BP CEO Tony Hatward and Goldman Sachs all dumped shitloads of BP shares... preparing for the worst perhaps??? who knows...

Other problems? Again, on the interweb, but there are comfirmed rumours (yes i understand how that sounds) of a large Gas Bubble that's building underneath, reports so far are 10 - 20km in width... this is sparking fears that once enough oil has leaked out and the sea pressure is greater, that the hole will fill with sea water, vapourise (it's fuckin hot, ?400 degC?) and increase the pressure causing the bubble to finally pop or explode. This will unleash a Tsunami off the east coast of the US (very low lying areas) and send a deadly gas cloud in whichever direction the wind is blowing...

So much science, so little honesty. Who knows...

might wipe out the US.. could be a good thing. Nature strikes back and all that.

[mashman]

might wipe out the US.. could be a good thing. Nature strikes back and all that.

You might be right if this is anything to go by...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPmCsZUD5zE

[Naki Rat]

Twelve ROV video feeds (http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9033572&contentId=7062605) and none of them show the flow from the wellhead now that the cap has been removed. Why does that not surprise me ? :rolleyes:

[mashman]

Twelve ROV video feeds (http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9033572&contentId=7062605) and none of them show the flow from the wellhead now that the cap has been removed. Why does that not surprise me ? :rolleyes:

I can only assume that's because they've removed the old well head and are spending the ?next week? trying to fit a new one... could be interesting...

[mashman]

A ray of light?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100713/twl-bp-fit-new-gulf-of-mexico-oil-cap-41f21e0.html

[Winston001]

You know, despite all the angst - and I'd be horrified if this happened off Taranaki, nature will balance itself. Oil is simply concentrated organic molecules which all living organisms are constructed of. It will be eaten by some, suffocate others, but ultimately disperse into the wider environment.

What annoys me is the amount of contrived media hysteria. As quite a few others have pointed out, if this happened in Nigeria (it has) or Malaysia, China, Venezuela etc, it would be a one-week news story. But because there is an oil spill close to the hallowed US of A suddenly its big news. In the country which per capita consumes more oil than any other nation. Ironic huh.

Edit - I have a warm affection for Americans themselves.

[Edbear]

http://theinternettoday.net/videos/man-defies-bp-laws-by-flying-his-plane-over-the-gulf-and-shooting-video/

[Genie]

You're right edbear..that is awful. what i find ironic is that the plane he is flying runs on what????

[Edbear]

You're right edbear..that is awful. what i find ironic is that the plane he is flying runs on what????

LOL!!! Yeah, but you know what I find tragic? All the oil wasted each month would probably run NZ's entire vehicle fleet for a year or more! The technology is there to make significant efficiencies in fuel consumption in all areas of transport, but because of investment costs and competition, there has always been a casual attitude to waste and efficiency. :bye:

[mashman]

News station checks water toxicity... not sure what the numbers really reflect, whether the readings they taken are "harmful" or not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_vG2GJ2Gk

[mashman]

Shitloads of dead fish... Oil Spill?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag0oQm0dhXs

[Neshi]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4466/4ce24240b628d2cf.jpg