Ohlins electronic suspension spotted

[imdying]

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2010/June/jun0410-spy-shots-multi-suspension-blade-spotted/_/R-EPI-124522

Hopefully a revolution isn't too far away?

[Devil]

Wait, what?
So it's the same as the multistrada but someone dork has glued an iPhone to it? Sounds reliable...

[AllanB]

Fuck it - you don't need that crap at 104kms per hour! And we all know it is dangerous to travel over that speed.

Maybe the electronics will make it all easier to adjust and set up your bike, download a map for your bike, type in your body weight and road conditions then the computer sets it all up for you. Actually I like that idea. But I won't like the price.

[tri boy]

Ohlins probably stole the idea from YSS:shifty:

[NordieBoy]

Ohlins probably stole the idea from YSS:shifty:

Or Hagon.

Hagon are coming up with some trick stuff for the VMX scene.

[schrodingers cat]

If fitted to a bike with a seat covering tension meter it can sense how hard you are clenching buttocks and adjust accordingly.

Brilliant stuff and made in Sweden and not with slave labour and supported by the best suspension techs in the world and cheaper if you grey import it but really, play the game and just agree with me.

Have I covered everything?

[Mishy]

Have I covered everything?

Not quite - but we'll have to open the box to find that answer . . . . . . . . .

[Robert Taylor]

Im glad suspension techs were mentioned. With new and often complex technology requiring specialised knowledge Id be going to the people that are actually factory trained. Later this year we are sending a technician to the factory in Sweden to be trained in this new electronic suspension. Only one person in NZ will have this direct factory training.

Im also glad grey importing was mentioned. Several weeks back we got a call from a BMW owner who had grey imported his Ohlins shock. He saved perhaps only $100 to $150 through not buying off the local Ohlins distributor who has local knowledge of our roading conditions and provides backup for the products sold through the distribution channel.
The spring rate was incorrect for him and also the shock required a slight revalve to make it work better again on our high ratio of bumpy and challenging roads. As he hadnt bought it off ourselves he had to pay for the new spring and the revalving, the thick end of $400. Had he bought the shock off ourselves that specialised setup for our conditions would have been done automatically at no extra cost or later at no extra cost, as required. This is a local setup issue, not a warranty issue and is why you have local factory trained technicians with specialised product knowledge and knowledge of local conditions.

I dont apologise for having a scathing opinion of those who have contempt for doing things properly.

[SS90]

Im glad suspension techs were mentioned. With new and often complex technology requiring specialised knowledge Id be going to the people that are actually factory trained. Later this year we are sending a technician to the factory in Sweden to be trained in this new electronic suspension. Only one person in NZ will have this direct factory training.

Im also glad grey importing was mentioned. Several weeks back we got a call from a BMW owner who had grey imported his Ohlins shock. He saved perhaps only $100 to $150 through not buying off the local Ohlins distributor who has local knowledge of our roading conditions and provides backup for the products sold through the distribution channel.
The spring rate was incorrect for him and also the shock required a slight revalve to make it work better again on our high ratio of bumpy and challenging roads. As he hadnt bought it off ourselves he had to pay for the new spring and the revalving, the thick end of $400. Had he bought the shock off ourselves that specialised setup for our conditions would have been done automatically at no extra cost or later at no extra cost, as required. This is a local setup issue, not a warranty issue and is why you have local factory trained technicians with specialised product knowledge and knowledge of local conditions.

I dont apologise for having a scathing opinion of those who have contempt for doing things properly.

...............

[imdying]

I dont apologise for having a scathing opinion of those who have contempt for doing things properly.How about apologising for posting up the same old boring shite instead of offering some interesting technical insight then. You're not actually required to post in every Ohlins related thread, so if you're just going to rehash the same old same old we've heard a million times before, then don't.

[avgas]

So will this new fancy suspension bike be faster around the track than a bike with no suspension?

[Robert Taylor]

How about apologising for posting up the same old boring shite instead of offering some interesting technical insight then. You're not actually required to post in every Ohlins related thread, so if you're just going to rehash the same old same old we've heard a million times before, then don't.

It was I thought quite relevant to quote the negative example of grey importing as someone else had mentioned it. This is affecting all supension distributors, as it happens.
As soon as I have more info on the electronic suspension I will indeed post details.

[Robert Taylor]

So will this new fancy suspension bike be faster around the track than a bike with no suspension?

Well at least I posted something with information and real world experience for readers to ponder

[imdying]

It was I thought quite relevant to quote the negative example of grey importing as someone else had mentioned it. This is affecting all supension distributors, as it happens.
As soon as I have more info on the electronic suspension I will indeed post details.Screw those haters, give us the good oil!!!

Sure someone will be bringing this gear in off their own back soon enough, just be happy that's their problem, and make some money off em when it all turns to custard :shifty:

[Marmoot]

Im also glad grey importing was mentioned. Several weeks back we got a call from a BMW owner who had grey imported his Ohlins shock. He saved perhaps only $100 to $150 through not buying off the local Ohlins distributor who has local knowledge of our roading conditions and provides backup for the products sold through the distribution channel.
The spring rate was incorrect for him and also the shock required a slight revalve to make it work better again on our high ratio of bumpy and challenging roads. As he hadnt bought it off ourselves he had to pay for the new spring and the revalving, the thick end of $400. Had he bought the shock off ourselves that specialised setup for our conditions would have been done automatically at no extra cost or later at no extra cost, as required. This is a local setup issue, not a warranty issue and is why you have local factory trained technicians with specialised product knowledge and knowledge of local conditions.

I dont apologise for having a scathing opinion of those who have contempt for doing things properly.

Can you maybe not sput this on virtually every single post you make?

Don't get me wrong, I entirely and wholeheartedly respect your knowledge and skills in the area, and the fact that you are the authorized Ohlins dealer/service/person. But it really starts to sound very similar to the broken record they call "road safety advertising" on TV.

Seriously, dude, you're not the only shop in the world and chances are there are 3.9 million people in NZ that do not know you even exist. People buy stuff from everywhere. If they ask you to service it and they are willing to pay $400 then (1) you're $400 richer, (2) they become Ohlins convert and happy riders, and (3) there is one more person in the world on Ohlins. I don't see a problem there. Do you?
Or you're just pissed off there are other people selling Ohlins on trademe/ebay/interweb/yellowpages? You simply can't control those things. It's 2010 and the world has gone global.

I can understand if the "Ohlins" they sell are knockoffs. But as long as they are genuine and come from Ohlins factory, they are still Ohlins. There are reasons people don't buy off you in the first place, and big chances are it is not just about saving money. Four million people in this little NZ, probably almost or more than a hundred thousand of them ride bikes, which about more than 10 thousands are interested in Ohlins, and how many do you know of these?


I have the same feeling about some of the motorcycle dealers treating people who come to them for service as "criminals" just because they did not buy the bikes off them. Wtf....

[sugilite]

Im glad suspension techs were mentioned etc, etc
Robert, while many do not realize just how lucky we are in NZ to have such a dedicated suspension technician such as yourself offering service well beyond and above the call of accepted NZ service standards, I'm starting to feel that your responding to every blatantly obvious baiting troll is starting to hurt your well deserved good rep thus eroding your Mana so to speak. Please do keep posting your fascinating and informative tech issues, as I feel that is what adds to your status as one of the leading suspension guru's in the country. You cannot expect to educate every gray import/overseas importing misguided noodle through Kiwibiker. When these types do end up on your doorstep, help them, charge them a fair amount for your services (alluding to you constantly under charging for your services here, not the other way around) and let the results of that service do the main talking. You responding to all these trolls is getting a bit tiresome IMHO. (and when I do get enough disposable cash to resume racing, I'll be straight over to see you)

[Robert Taylor]

To be honest I thought the example I quoted was relevant to point out, just so people are forewarned of what can go wrong and what does go wrong. That is good information. I didnt give this guy a hard time at all for buying overseas and in fact gave him a bit of a deal, he went away happy but also aware that buying offshore actually cost him more money.
Yes the world is a very different place but its fair to point out the negatives of grey imports and purchasing off those who have no specific model training and / or direct access to the manufacturers.

[bogan]

so whats the theory behind electronic suspension? is it adjustable valving, adjustable preload/'spring' rate. I'm guessing it self adjusts as you ride over rougher bits or braking right?

[Marmoot]

To be honest I thought the example I quoted was relevant to point out, just so people are forewarned of what can go wrong and what does go wrong. That is good information. I didnt give this guy a hard time at all for buying overseas and in fact gave him a bit of a deal, he went away happy but also aware that buying offshore actually cost him more money.
Yes the world is a very different place but its fair to point out the negatives of grey imports and purchasing off those who have no specific model training and / or direct access to the manufacturers.

Maybe, in a different place and time. This thread is about electronic suspension, so let's stick to the topic eh?

Is it anything like what Audi has developed with magnetically-controlled suspension oil liquidity (with tiny metal particles suspended in the oil) to control the damping force dynamically?

[sugilite]

OK, I will try this again. With regards to this "electronic Ohlins suspension" thread, you are actually responding to the troll, as you do in just about every single suspension thread. I did not intimate that you gave the customer a hard time either, and on top of that you confirmed your under charging ways in the same breath. If course feel free to inform customers turning up on your doorstep in 3D of the perils of gray imports etc, I just feel you do not need to do so on every single suspension thread on kb.


To be honest I thought the example I quoted was relevant to point out, just so people are forewarned of what can go wrong and what does go wrong. That is good information. I didnt give this guy a hard time at all for buying overseas and in fact gave him a bit of a deal, he went away happy but also aware that buying offshore actually cost him more money.
Yes the world is a very different place but its fair to point out the negatives of grey imports and purchasing off those who have no specific model training and / or direct access to the manufacturers.

[bogan]

Maybe, in a different place and time. This thread is about electronic suspension, so let's stick to the topic eh?

Is it anything like what Audi has developed with magnetically-controlled suspension oil liquidity (with tiny metal particles suspended in the oil) to control the damping force dynamically?

at the risk of bringing this thread back on topic ill add my 0.5c ;)

kinda like this shit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me5Zzm2TXh4) you mean? think thats been round in suspension for ages IIRC the late 80s ford laser TX3's had something similar, by the look of the wiring my guess is on the fly damping adjustment.

[Marmoot]

by the look of the wiring my guess is on the fly damping adjustment.

You mean closed-loop adaptive suspension damping control where there is a little servo continuously turning the adjuster left and right?
(ooh I feel geeky)

[bogan]

You mean closed-loop adaptive suspension damping control where there is a little servo continuously turning the adjuster left and right?
(ooh I feel geeky)

thats what my money is on, though it's probably more complicated than a servo the theory remains the same

[steelestring]

You mean closed-loop adaptive suspension damping control where there is a little servo continuously turning the adjuster left and right?
(ooh I feel geeky)

Yup thats the one. My old 89 Mitsubishi Mirage Cyborg had the same setup but the rear units died... ...sport mode!! 30 more horse power by the push of a button! (vibrations giving the illusion that loose change and rattles sped me up hehehe)
The shock units were very super heavy and bulky.... I was glad to see them go. Cool idea though and it worked.

[schrodingers cat]

Th autootive world has been experimenting with (essentially) varible viscosity oil. It has metallic magnetic particles in it and by enducing a charge, the partical behaviour 'stiffens' the oil. Not suggest this is how O****s are doing it just mentioning interesting technology

[NZsarge]

Commonly know as magnetic ride control, other than Audi it's also seen in Ferrari and HSV Holden. Developed by Delphi.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok guys, this is what I have learnt about it so far, some of this material has already been in several international publications plus snippets of info that I learnt while in Stockholm last September.
Ohlins have a CES system ( continuously controlled electronic suspension ) that they started work on way back in 85 and have now supplied quantities in ''telephone number'' figures to leading automotive manufacturers such as Audi, Ford, Volvo etc.
The system that they have been developing for motorycles is quite different and falls under the title of ''Mechatronics'', a combination of electronic and mechanical control. Basically it is adapted as a retrofit to existing TTX suspension units and one would suspect that it has been a master plan ever since they introduced TTX technology ( twin tube recirculating damping ) As the flow rate through TTX valves is approximately 5 times that of a conventional single tube displacement shock it means that the bandwith of adjustment afforded by the external clickers is dramatically wider than those conventional shocks. So such a shock lends itself to electronic actuation.
Basically the existing TTX valves will be replaced with valves that have electronically controlled stepper motors on them to vary the click position according to the required circumstances. For example if you wish to brake as late as possible into a corner the ideal scenario is that the compression clicker is closed off at or near completely in the front forks, as you peel into the corner and the bike leans over the clicker position then needs to be somewhat freer flowing to afford the rider good feel and to maximise response so that the wheel and tyre both follow surface imperfections and there is still enough pressure placed on the tyre to deliver maximum possible grip. In the latter stages of acceleration off the corner the front end is operating higher in its stroke and the rebound needs to be suitably free so the tyre can continue to find the downramp of bumps and any small surface ripples to keep it interlocked as much with the pavement. There is more traction on tarmac than there is in air!
Similarly in the rear end you dont want the rear end topping out too readily under braking so momentarily the rebound damping can be closed inwards a few clicks. Coming off the turns the rebound clicker will be opened out significantly to let the tyre find those downramps again and to amximise drive off the turns.
The system still has a tunable shim stack and that sets the basic character of the shock, contrary to popular misconception those external clickers are not a magic fix all, they dont magically revalve the shock externally! But as said above the TTX concept and its bandwith of adjustment lends itself rather nicely to this new technology.
Theres an optimum clicker setting in both rebound and compression for braking, mid corner transition, acceleration off corners etc. So with current clickers that dont continuously and automatically adjust for each part of the track and scenario it rather proves that clicker settings are a big compromise.
When briefly used in WSBK with Team Yamaha a couple of seasons back it was linked through a transmitter on the bike, transmitters strategically placed around the track and to a GPS satellite, plus various other electronic aids on the bikes. A fail safe default setting was also built in.
The system was very successful and Haga I think won two races on it and it should have been a third but for an engine chernobyling. This all prior to it being banned. Under braking at Donington Troy Corser found that he could brake into one particular corner 5 metres later with the system switched on. On a subsequent lap where he switched the system off he promptly fell off on that same corner when he tried to brake at approximately the same point! Off the corners the rebound clickers in the rear shocks were wound out to full open to maximise wheel extension response and therefore grip. They were driving off the corners better than the yardstick at that time, the Ducatis.
As all racers would know if you completely released rebound on a current rear shock the rear end would try to swap ends on braking and would be a wobbly jelly mid corner. So the essential ideal dynamics are more rebound control on corner / braking entry, a setting for chassis composure and sidegrip in transition / mid corner and release it off to maximise grip on exit.
Frankly this is all very exciting, especially as the system is going to be available as a retrofit for all current TTX36 shock absorbers.
The system promptly got banned in WSBK not so much because of the Ohlins system but because the rulemakers / governing body were much more concerned with the knowledge that companies like BMW could bring from their Mechatronics experience in Formula 1 car racing.
The production version of Ohlins Mechatronics will have to be affordable to the man in the street so GPS system is out but there are other ways and means. Until though there is a formal release of the aftermarket system ( pending later this year ) they are being pretty tight lipped.
There will of course be the negative naysayers ( youve only got to evidence this thread for sillyish but I hope good humored comments ) But the reality is electronic controls are happening more and more in motorcycling and that is the way everything is heading.
Ten or more years back you had a box full of jets and needles and had to laboriously fiddle with changing and rechanging them in banks of flat slide carburetors, nowadays with electronic injection its a few leystokes on a laptop to ''rejet''. If a poll was taken Id lay odds on what most racers prefer! This is broadly where it is ultimately heading with suspension and we will ultiamtely see it introduced in future years on more and more production motorcycles.
Bring it on!

[Robert Taylor]

Th autootive world has been experimenting with (essentially) varible viscosity oil. It has metallic magnetic particles in it and by enducing a charge, the partical behaviour 'stiffens' the oil. Not suggest this is how O****s are doing it just mentioning interesting technology

I have to study that one a little more and I wonder how well it modulates mass flow. Varying oil viscosity is roughly akin to varying orifice size. Smallish bypass bleed orifices are required for chassis control at low velocity damper shaft speeds. But when you approach curb strike velocities of say 800mm/ second or more there is a whole lot more flow area required that in a regular damper is modulated by large piston ports and a deflective shim stack. Id be interested to know how they are doing it, do you have a link?

[schrodingers cat]

Ten or more years back you had a box full of jets and needles and had to laboriously fiddle with changing and rechanging them in banks of flat slide carburetors, nowadays with electronic injection its a few leystokes on a laptop to ''rejet''. If a poll was taken Id lay odds on what most racers prefer! This is broadly where it is ultimately heading with suspension and we will ultiamtely see it introduced in future years on more and more production motorcycles.


Essentially 3D mapping then as opposed to mechanical 2D tuning?

If it makes it to production bikes I would assume that you'd get a certain number of 'presets' or a slider marked Harley Davidson - MotoGP

I will take a look for some reading re the varible viscosity oil. You have to admit that as a simple (crude) fudge for road riding it would be fairly effective. It may not optimise traction is all situations as you say but it would influence 'feel'

Found this for you http://www.gizmag.com/go/5752/
Note the effect isn't passive. They are suggesting a response rate of 1kHz

Also http://www.lord.com/Home/MagnetoRheologicalMRFluid/tabid/3317/Default.aspx

[Robert Taylor]

Essentially 3D mapping then as opposed to mechanical 2D tuning?

If it makes it to production bikes I would assume that you'd get a certain number of 'presets' or a slider marked Harley Davidson - MotoGP

I will take a look for some reading re the varible viscosity oil. You have to admit that as a simple (crude) fudge for road riding it would be fairly effective. It may not optimise traction is all situations as you say but it would influence 'feel'

Found this for you http://www.gizmag.com/go/5752/
Note the effect isn't passive. They are suggesting a response rate of 1kHz

Also http://www.lord.com/Home/MagnetoRheologicalMRFluid/tabid/3317/Default.aspx

Thanks for that. As soon as more information is available from Ohlins and embargos of information are lifted I will post.
WP also had a prototype system up and running ready to test in WSBK but that all went to ground after the ban. I have no doubt that as one of the leaders in motorcycle suspension they had something that was clever.

[Marmoot]

Would be keen to know if they are actually testing it for MotoGP-type application (i.e., $250k bikes), or for road/mundane/mortal/trackday type development (i.e., sub-$50k bikes).

[JMemonic]

Maybe the electronics will make it all easier to adjust and set up your bike, download a map for your bike, type in your body weight and road conditions then the computer sets it all up for you. Actually I like that idea. But I won't like the price.

Umm thats kind of how I was told the Multistrada works, you set you mode, if you fit the panniers it asks the weights in them, if you have a pillion you enter that and it sets a mapped setting up.

[onearmedbandit]

Interesting reading Robert, thanks. I look forward to reading further developments.

[vindy500]

haha i can see it now, pick up your pillion, now what did you say you weighed again?

[Pixie]

Th autootive world has been experimenting with (essentially) varible viscosity oil. It has metallic magnetic particles in it and by enducing a charge, the partical behaviour 'stiffens' the oil. Not suggest this is how O****s are doing it just mentioning interesting technology

Bose have been selling true electric suspension for some time.
They use linear motors instead of springs and dampers.
This video is quite impressive -especially at the end where they make a Lexus jump over a curb on a flat bit of road:

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http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/21/video-bose-suspension-in-action/

[bogan]

Bose have been selling true electric suspension for some time.
They use linear motors instead of springs and dampers.
This video is quite impressive -especially at the end where they make a Lexus jump over a curb on a flat bit of road:


fuck thats cool, is active suspension rather than reactive so there has to be ground mapping sensors etc. Bet the jumping feature ain't standard!

[Pixie]

Here's more detail:http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-suspension9.htm

[onearmedbandit]

That's some interesting shit in that video Pixie.

[imdying]

*snip some good shit*Now that's what I'm talking about, thanks for taking the time to add that for us, appreciated :yes:

[Robert Taylor]

The Bose and other similiar systems are indeed interesting. Without benefit of intimately studying it Id surmise that currently it is more promising for high performance passenger cars where ride quality and reasonable chassis stabilityare paramount.
If people in MotoGP and WSBK wanted to embrace the technology their very first hurdle would be getting it past the rulemakers and in the current environment I cant see that happening in a hurry.
And then theres packaging on a motorcycle and the power supplies to run it, not insurmountable problems but existing problems nonetheless. ABS systems are an example, they have merit but with weight and bulkiness.
Race bikes require quite specific damping curves for each circuit and many other variables that can be arranged with specific bleed passages, piston designs and shim stack arrangements. At this point I surmise that the Bose system cannot emulate those curves unless someone has studied it in detail and can tell me otherwise.
Certainly its not being currently embraced with open arms by all suspension manufacturers so I am guessing that there are still limitations or issues as described above that it still cannot address, but will with the passage of time and resources. Thats not in any way being skeptical but it still appears that we will have modulating shim stacks for some time ( albeit with electronic aids ) as they still do an excellent job at reasonable cost.
Whichever, the future looks exciting.

[bogan]

Race bikes require quite specific damping curves for each circuit and many other variables that can be arranged with specific bleed passages, piston designs and shim stack arrangements. At this point I surmise that the Bose system cannot emulate those curves unless someone has studied it in detail and can tell me otherwise.

while I havent done an in-depth look at the bose system (prolly only selected bose employees could do that) I am familiar with the concept. Basicaly it is as different as jets are from props! None of the fluid daming etc need apply as you have a voice-coil type actuator which provides whatever force you need almost instantaneously, so you could simply emulate any curve you wanted if you only look at wheel displacement. However this type of system means you can provide active (rather than the conventional reactive) suspension, which scans ahead and determine what the road surface is doing, going over a bump means changing the force applied by the shock to allow the wheel to rise and fall, but maintaining a constant force applied to the chassis. That's the theory behind active suspension anyway, and in most cases it is possible to recover much of the force needed which greatly reduces the power draw, though I imagine it would still be quite significant.

[schrodingers cat]

Active on a bike would be quite tricky. The positioning of the ride height lasers for a start. Unlike a car which has overhangs and a relitively wide contact patch, a bike travels on a ribbon which is a bit harder to track esp with the bike heeled over.
The main funtion of active (in racing applications) is to preserve aerodynamic efficiency given that the cars are more missles than automobiles.
This technology IMHO is better utilised in a reactive system - particularly as the rider inputs have a far greater effect than that of a driver - esp where and how they transfer weight

[bogan]

Active on a bike would be quite tricky. The positioning of the ride height lasers for a start. Unlike a car which has overhangs and a relitively wide contact patch, a bike travels on a ribbon which is a bit harder to track esp with the bike heeled over.
The main funtion of active (in racing applications) is to preserve aerodynamic efficiency given that the cars are more missles than automobiles.
This technology IMHO is better utilised in a reactive system - particularly as the rider inputs have a far greater effect than that of a driver - esp where and how they transfer weight

have to disagree, if you are going to add all the extra systems you want a significant benefit over conventional suspension, you won't get that using it in a reactive system. The sensors will be very lightweight and with some additional computing power will be able to be interpreted to provide proper active suspension.

[schrodingers cat]

Ummmmm. The sensors are already very small, light and not very expensive. Computing power likewise is neither here no there since it is reliable, cheap and duable these days.
The trouble is writing the code to get the desired result without spitting the rider into the scenery.

What would you be looking for from an 'active' system as an improvement over a reactive system?
What are the key paramaters they need to be addressed?
Would the added complexity actually translate into speed?

Interestingly the Lotus system developed was a true active suspension with a focus more on ride control than optimising chassis attitude. The Williams AP derived system, by their own admission, was a reactive system but ultimatly the more effective solution

Before entering the discussion be sure that 'active' isn't synomous with 'Holy Grail'

[bogan]

Ummmmm. The sensors are already very small, light and not very expensive. Computing power likewise is neither here no there since it is reliable, cheap and duable these days.
The trouble is writing the code to get the desired result without spitting the rider into the scenery.


and with good enough hardware I don't see the coding being a problem, the physics involved are relatively simple and a slow process (donning flame suit now!)



What would you be looking for from an 'active' system as an improvement over a reactive system?
What are the key paramaters they need to be addressed?
Would the added complexity actually translate into speed?


maintaining constant contact and constant force on the road surface would be the improvement, how effective it determine how constant the forces are, and yeh course it translates into speed on a track, but on the road you don't need more speed, just more stability/feel/comfort.

[Robert Taylor]

Ummmmm. The sensors are already very small, light and not very expensive. Computing power likewise is neither here no there since it is reliable, cheap and duable these days.
The trouble is writing the code to get the desired result without spitting the rider into the scenery.

What would you be looking for from an 'active' system as an improvement over a reactive system?
What are the key paramaters they need to be addressed?
Would the added complexity actually translate into speed?

Interestingly the Lotus system developed was a true active suspension with a focus more on ride control than optimising chassis attitude. The Williams AP derived system, by their own admission, was a reactive system but ultimatly the more effective solution

Before entering the discussion be sure that 'active' isn't synomous with 'Holy Grail'

Yeah its interesting comparing the automotive side to motorcycles. With Formual 1 and Indycars etc everything is subservient to aero function and making sure the centre point of pressure doesnt migrate too much.
I think the real issue is not so much the control systems with active suspension, its reading whats ahead. Not so difficult on a closed race course, as was the case with the compound active and reactive Ohlins and WP systems. But a real can of worms on the road, e.g how many ripples are there on the 500metre section of road ahead? What is the profile of each ripple and what velocity would it deflect the suspension at? What is the unit time between each ripple / bump? How much more low speed compression damping is going to be required to stop the chassis g-ing out on the upramp of that hill?
At the back of my mind the systems such as Bose would meet their ultimate challenge on our high proportion of bumpy roads, the same challenges that face our current reactive units.
Its interesting just watching the dynamics of tyre sidewall compression, especially for example if you are following a badly spriung or totally unsprung trailer. With any suspension deflection its actually the tire sidewall that moves first, every brand and type of tire inputs different energies and frequencies into the suspension, something road racers grapple with all the time. Thats another factor of many.
Active will be a holy grail sometime in the future but theres a lot of work to do yet!

[imdying]

Ummmmm. The sensors are already very small, light and not very expensive.That Bosch linear potentiometer hanging off the fork is about $800 for the cheap model. Does it need to be that precise (read expensive), I don't know...

[cowpoos]

the physics involved are relatively simple and a slow process



No...quite complex physics actually...I thought you would understand that being a pyhsics student and all??...and what sch-cat is saying about rider inputs is the key...you will need alsorts of sensors and a physic ball to predict what the rider will do. minor rider inputs have a large influence on how a bike reacts to anything.

[Robert Taylor]

That Bosch linear potentiometer hanging off the fork is about $800 for the cheap model. Does it need to be that precise (read expensive), I don't know...

Thats of course for the datalogging and it generally has to be military spec to be durable enough. The frequencies that are occuring are also pretty extreme. But given time the real cost of all of this stuff will come down in price, which it needs to!

[bogan]

No...quite complex physics actually...I thought you would understand that being a pyhsics student and all??...and what sch-cat is saying about rider inputs is the key...you will need alsorts of sensors and a physic ball to predict what the rider will do. minor rider inputs have a large influence on how a bike reacts to anything.

"relatively simple" is what I said, have you seen what they done with the su37? yeh, I'd say this is simple in comparison. And I'm a mechatronics grad, not a physics student, cover similar shit though. Would you need to predict the rider inputs though? maintaining the bike in a neutral position regardless of rider inputs could be done as simply as a proportional control system, and add the bump prediction adjustments after that would still provide vast benifits, no braking dive allows later braking into corners etc.

[Robert Taylor]

"relatively simple" is what I said, have you seen what they done with the su37? yeh, I'd say this is simple in comparison. And I'm a mechatronics grad, not a physics student, cover similar shit though. Would you need to predict the rider inputs though? maintaining the bike in a neutral position regardless of rider inputs could be done as simply as a proportional control system, and add the bump prediction adjustments after that would still provide vast benifits, no braking dive allows later braking into corners etc.

I think also there has to be a point that is defined as ''good enough''. Achieving decent ride height and pitch control plus bump compliance in a fast passenger road car is relatively straightforward and you can achieve ''good enough'' easily. But in road racing of bikes we already work within very fine parameters and sometimes frustrating compromise in terms of grip, chassis stability, tyre temperature and life. Racing is certainly the hardest discipline to test new technology and good enough doesnt stay good enough for too long.
Also when I say compromises the new possibilities that mechatronics opens up shows just how much of a compromise current suspension actually is. It will be like having a suspension tuner on board to adjust your clickers at every point of the track, in real time.
How long has the term ''mechatronics'' been coined?

[bogan]

I think also there has to be a point that is defined as ''good enough''. Achieving decent ride height and pitch control plus bump compliance in a fast passenger road car is relatively straightforward and you can achieve ''good enough'' easily. But in road racing of bikes we already work within very fine parameters and sometimes frustrating compromise in terms of grip, chassis stability, tyre temperature and life. Racing is certainly the hardest discipline to test new technology and good enough doesnt stay good enough for too long.
Also when I say compromises the new possibilities that mechatronics opens up shows just how much of a compromise current suspension actually is. It will be like having a suspension tuner on board to adjust your clickers at every point of the track, in real time.
How long has the term ''mechatronics'' been coined?

yeh, it'll certainly be interesting to watch what comes out in the near future, even more interesting if I manage to get amongst it :yes: Not sure exactly how long, but massey has been offering a mechatronics major for over 10 years anyway, though robotics majors is essentially the same thing.

[schrodingers cat]

That Bosch linear potentiometer hanging off the fork is about $800 for the cheap model. Does it need to be that precise (read expensive), I don't know...

The sophistication we're talking about here comes at a price premium. A really good data logging system for example can easily have $30 000 dollars sunk into it. At certain levels the belief is they get a benefit from it rather than a $1000 system.
Given the amount of development and the effectiveness/reliabilty from current hydraulic systems I think we're a loooooong way from seeing this stuff on road bikes other than as a marketting hype. The ticket price of a bike compared to a car isn't high enough to absorb the premium pricing required.i.e An 'Active' bike would be a large percentage more expensive than a conventional and realistically - not much different on the road.

RT is right - if the rulemakers allow it a benefit will be extracted but with huge investment. The reason it is banned is due to the current economic climate. A single dominant team/rider/manufacturer is bad for the sport


"relatively simple" is what I said, have you seen what they done with the su37? yeh, I'd say this is simple in comparison. And I'm a mechatronics grad, not a physics student, cover similar shit though. Would you need to predict the rider inputs though? maintaining the bike in a neutral position regardless of rider inputs could be done as simply as a proportional control system, and add the bump prediction adjustments after that would still provide vast benifits, no braking dive allows later braking into corners etc.

Everything is easy when you underestimate the true nature of the problem.

I'm not taking a stab, I just think that you should probably stand off a wee bit and let the warning lights come on. There are obviously a few folks commenting on this thread who know a thing or two and have had an involvement with this sort of stuff

I admire your confidence but assure you the devil is in the detail. As you start to understand exactly what is involved in this challenge you may wish to revise your opinion

[bogan]

Everything is easy when you underestimate the true nature of the problem.

I'm not taking a stab, I just think that you should probably stand off a wee bit and let the warning lights come on. There are obviously a few folks commenting on this thread who know a thing or two and have had an involvement with this sort of stuff

I admire your confidence but assure you the devil is in the detail. As you start to understand exactly what is involved in this challenge you may wish to revise your opinion

and everything is too difficult if you a) don't understand what is possible with todays technology b) believe it's too hard. If you hadn't seen the bose video would you have beleived it was possible to get such and improvement on the bumps over a conventional system?

Also, where the fuck has the kiwi 'give it a go' attitude gone? John Britten was a fucking legend, have attitudes changed so much since then we will never see anyone else get close?

[Pixie]

The Bose and other similiar systems are indeed interesting. Without benefit of intimately studying it Id surmise that currently it is more promising for high performance passenger cars where ride quality and reasonable chassis stabilityare paramount.
If people in MotoGP and WSBK wanted to embrace the technology their very first hurdle would be getting it past the rulemakers and in the current environment I cant see that happening in a hurry.
And then theres packaging on a motorcycle and the power supplies to run it, not insurmountable problems but existing problems nonetheless. ABS systems are an example, they have merit but with weight and bulkiness.
Race bikes require quite specific damping curves for each circuit and many other variables that can be arranged with specific bleed passages, piston designs and shim stack arrangements. At this point I surmise that the Bose system cannot emulate those curves unless someone has studied it in detail and can tell me otherwise.
Certainly its not being currently embraced with open arms by all suspension manufacturers so I am guessing that there are still limitations or issues as described above that it still cannot address, but will with the passage of time and resources. Thats not in any way being skeptical but it still appears that we will have modulating shim stacks for some time ( albeit with electronic aids ) as they still do an excellent job at reasonable cost.
Whichever, the future looks exciting.

The Bose system uses linear motors with the electronics mounted direct on the suspension units.If you look at the picture in the link on post #37,you can see the finned heatsink on the unit.The power requirements are quite low as the units are regenerative -as the bump drives the unit up it generates electrical power that is stored for future use.
Damping functions are provided by controlling the force the motor applies to the wheel -basically if you wanted to, you could stop the upward movement dead,the video showed the system has the power to jump a 2000 kg car off the ground.You could even chock the body and lift the wheel to do a tyre change a la old Citroens.
I guess the software engineers are the guys that do the job of "building shim stacks" and fitting new "springs".

[Robert Taylor]

The Bose system uses linear motors with the electronics mounted direct on the suspension units.If you look at the picture in the link on post #37,you can see the finned heatsink on the unit.The power requirements are quite low as the units are regenerative -as the bump drives the unit up it generates electrical power that is stored for future use.
Damping functions are provided by controlling the force the motor applies to the wheel -basically if you wanted to, you could stop the upward movement dead,the video showed the system has the power to jump a 2000 kg car off the ground.You could even chock the body and lift the wheel to do a tyre change a la old Citroens.
I guess the software engineers are the guys that do the job of "building shim stacks" and fitting new "springs".

Its pretty clever alright. Pardon the bad pun but theres a few bumps along the way though with any new applications of technology, including but not restricted to further development, packaging for varying installations and that old bogey, price