Racing - relative risks? (Split thread)

[Edbear]

I don't want to sound critical of one who was so obviously a nice guy and well liked and respected, but I have a question that perhaps only those who race can answer. Perhaps, too, I am influenced by my own recent crash and the fact that I very nearly died.

I understand, as a rider, the thrill and enjoyment of riding and too, of going fast, so I fully understand the love of racing by those who race, and I do watch the MotoGP. However, most racing is done on race tracks which are designed for it and it is rare for a rider to be killed on the track due to the safety features. The IoM TT is a notoriously hazardous circuit and the number of deaths and serious injuries testify to the heightened risk of racing in such an environment.

My question, as a husband and father, is regarding the wisdom of placing oneself at needless risk in light of the real chance of bereaving one's family. How are the children expected to feel and cope with the loss of their father? The potential consequences would stop me from pursuing activities that greatly increase the risk of death or serious injury.


Please don't rabbit on about daily risks. I am suffering a broken back and the guilt - even though not my fault - of nearly dying and thus bereaving my own family. Rather, I'm referring to choosing an activity that greatly increases the risk when one has family responsibilities which should be one's first priority.

[Edbear]

Mate there's a time and a place for questions like that...............this is neither of them.

Sorry I don't mean to offend, I'm just saddened by the premature death of such an obviously well liked person.

[Vegetableman]

Whilst I can see your argument I would say you have to be your own person.
Yes, in this case it does cause alot of sadness to the family and friends. However to me this is better than waking up one morning in 30 or 40 years time thinking 'I wish I had done...'
I think families would rather if they had to loose a loved one it would be in a situation where the family member died doing something they felt so strongly about.
Not to lessen in any way the impact this is having, just my personal feelings on the matter.
To quote Andy Dufresne (Not sure of the original speaker) 'Get busy living, or get busy dying.'

[PirateJafa]

Edmund Hillary should have stayed safely in front of his fireplace, sipping hot cocoa, yes. For his family's sake.

Robin Knox-Johnston should have kept living on his yacht, tied safely up in England. Rather than becoming the first person ever to sail around the world non-stop, by himself.

Charles Lindbergh should have stayed as a small-time airmail pilot, rather than becoming the first person to fly solo across the Atlantic.

And don't even get me started on Christopher Columbus. That "discovering the New World" shit be dangerous!

Not everyone gets a kick out of crochet, I'm afraid.

[miloking]

I don't want to sound critical of one who was so obviously a nice guy and well liked and respected, but I have a question that perhaps only those who race can answer. Perhaps, too, I am influenced by my own recent crash and the fact that I very nearly died.

I understand, as a rider, the thrill and enjoyment of riding and too, of going fast, so I fully understand the love of racing by those who race, and I do watch the MotoGP. However, most racing is done on race tracks which are designed for it and it is rare for a rider to be killed on the track due to the safety features. The IoM TT is a notoriously hazardous circuit and the number of deaths and serious injuries testify to the heightened risk of racing in such an environment.

My question, as a husband and father, is regarding the wisdom of placing oneself at needless risk in light of the real chance of bereaving one's family. How are the children expected to feel and cope with the loss of their father? The potential consequences would stop me from pursuing activities that greatly increase the risk of death or serious injury.


Please don't rabbit on about daily risks. I am suffering a broken back and the guilt - even though not my fault - of nearly dying and thus bereaving my own family. Rather, I'm referring to choosing an activity that greatly increases the risk when one has family responsibilities which should be one's first priority.

Why dont you race cages instead until the kids are 18 and then if you are still up for it you can go back to racing bikes.....either way its your choice to make, whether you going to live your whole life based on caring for others or by living it your way...still there is always a third option.

[blackdog]

I don't want to sound critical of one who was so obviously a nice guy and well liked and respected, but I have a question that perhaps only those who race can answer. Perhaps, too, I am influenced by my own recent crash and the fact that I very nearly died.

I understand, as a rider, the thrill and enjoyment of riding and too, of going fast, so I fully understand the love of racing by those who race, and I do watch the MotoGP. However, most racing is done on race tracks which are designed for it and it is rare for a rider to be killed on the track due to the safety features. The IoM TT is a notoriously hazardous circuit and the number of deaths and serious injuries testify to the heightened risk of racing in such an environment.

My question, as a husband and father, is regarding the wisdom of placing oneself at needless risk in light of the real chance of bereaving one's family. How are the children expected to feel and cope with the loss of their father? The potential consequences would stop me from pursuing activities that greatly increase the risk of death or serious injury.


Please don't rabbit on about daily risks. I am suffering a broken back and the guilt - even though not my fault - of nearly dying and thus bereaving my own family. Rather, I'm referring to choosing an activity that greatly increases the risk when one has family responsibilities which should be one's first priority.

we must do that which we love

[Headbanger]

Follow your own road, leave others to ride theirs.

[Mystic13]

If you want to minimise risks that would mean giving up driving, going for swims at surf beaches, etc.

The IoM TT is a challenge and were it scheduled pretty much anywhere else in the world would probably be gone.

Some people choose to LIVE more than others. I ride motorcycles because I love it and the feeling I get from it.

We did a family skydive last year for the first time. My kids 16,14 and 9 decided to jump and my 15 year old decided not to. My 9 year old made his own choice and loved it. personally I really wanted to say to him "no I'm not letting you do it" and came close. I was wrapped to see him touch down safely.

I think it's part of being human to LIVE LIFE to the level that you want to.

I had a guy in his late 50's admiring my bike and as we got to talk you could see the passion he had for bikes and really wanting one. I then learnt he hadn't ridden. He explained when he was younger his mum wouldn't let him. So I said so why don't you learn now. He replied "my wife won't let me". Now that's not living.

The funny thing is as a parent I can see what my kids are like. The 15 year old (who didn't jump) is most likely to have money problems, relationship problems and I think will choose to have a tougher life. Her fears and being limited by what others think seems to me to be more of a problem. I don't for one minute think she should be more adventurous because me and my wife are.

[CHOPPA]

I was thinking the same thing and i personally would never ride there although i sorta want to.

It put things into perspective when i read Pauls wifes press release. That race ultimately cost him his life but on the flipside it seemed that it was a huge part of his life and sorta what he lived for. His wife said that for the other 48 weeks of each year they would be planning the next years event so it was a family thing, obviously they had talked about the risks as a family and had decided that if the worst was to happen that his ashes remained at the place he loved and that his death should not be mourned but his life celebrated. It put things into perspective for me....

Racing was his and his familys life.....

[scott411]

im with CHoppa on this one, i would never race at the Isle of Man, but i respect the rights of those that want to, although i think someone with a family and children should take those risks into account it is ultimately their decision, I have stopped racing top level mx in nz because i can not afford to be hurt now, when you are racing seriously you need to be able to take risks if you want to be at the pointy end of the field,

i do not think other people (except medical specialists) should tell you when to stop racing, it should be a personal decision,

[Matt Bleck]

Funny I was talking about this in the weekend, I would personally love to race there, but when it was highlithed to me what my family would be going thru for two weeks each year it sorta changed my mind.

But if your family understands and is behind you 100% then I personally feel that you should do it,

[rachprice]

i do not think other people (except medical specialists) should tell you when to stop racing, it should be a personal decision,

Even then, a lot of them don't understand
Plus the old paternal approach to medicine is well on its way out
I have always been a fan of quality over quantity including life

And what about mick doohan....if clinica mobile hadn't of saved him he might have lost his leg.....

[Edbear]

I was thinking the same thing and i personally would never ride there although i sorta want to.

It put things into perspective when i read Pauls wifes press release. That race ultimately cost him his life but on the flipside it seemed that it was a huge part of his life and sorta what he lived for. His wife said that for the other 48 weeks of each year they would be planning the next years event so it was a family thing, obviously they had talked about the risks as a family and had decided that if the worst was to happen that his ashes remained at the place he loved and that his death should not be mourned but his life celebrated. It put things into perspective for me....

Racing was his and his familys life.....


im with CHoppa on this one, i would never race at the Isle of Man, but i respect the rights of those that want to, although i think someone with a family and children should take those risks into account it is ultimately their decision, I have stopped racing top level mx in nz because i can not afford to be hurt now, when you are racing seriously you need to be able to take risks if you want to be at the pointy end of the field,

i do not think other people (except medical specialists) should tell you when to stop racing, it should be a personal decision,


Funny I was talking about this in the weekend, I would personally love to race there, but when it was highlithed to me what my family would be going thru for two weeks each year it sorta changed my mind.

But if your family understands and is behind you 100% then I personally feel that you should do it,

I understand your points and Paul's wife's comments were enlightening as she obviously supported him in his racing. I guess the principle that one shouldn't bet money one cannot afford to lose, applies to one's life as well. Some poster's comments fail to see the difference between racing the IoM TT and other endeavours. The fact that this race, as exciting as it is, would be banned in most other countries shows the difference, I believe, and my question is about the wisdom of choosing to do something that genuinely greatly increases the risk of death or serious injury that will mean very sad consequences for those left behind.

Certainly, many activities carry risk - racing in general, climbing mountains, sailing the seas, and we accept that we can't all live boring and "safe" lives, never extending ourselves or exploring the limits in order to discover. But as a husband and father, who has seen first hand and very recently the effect of his own accident and near-death on his wife and children, it is sobering and gives one pause for thought. Life for those left behind is never the same again, and never easy, and I personally feel guilty and upset at what I have put my family through despite it not being my fault and that no-one, including the Police, blames me in any way. For this reason, I would not undertake an activity that has a very real risk of death, a risk out of proportion to the general risk of the activity. WHat I mean is that racing on a track designed for racing, where you see riders crash at high speed and walk away, is not the same as racing at those same speeds on a road that has no consideration for safety and where almost any crash is going to hurt bad or result in death.

People take extensive safety precautions for most adventurous activities, but such as the IoM TT cannot be made "safe". Paeroa and Wanganui are not really in the same league as speeds are much slower there, yet even there it is a street circuit with minimal run-off areas.

[imdying]

m referring to choosing an activity that greatly increases the risk when one has family responsibilities which should be one's first priority.Should? Perhaps 'maybe should' would be better. It's not going to be the end of the world if you die, mum will still be able to look after the kids, and if not, your or your wifes parents. Children will be fine if their father dies, it's not the end of the world, and your wife would just remarry (after a suitable mourning period, or course).

Children are just children, they're not the most important most awesomest thing in the world that requires you to drop your entire life and loves over... sure they need consideration in almost every decision, but you're still your own person.

You don't have a burning passion for motorcycle road racing, so it will never make a lot of sense to you... but maybe some of PirateJafa's examples will help get across that family != end of your life/ambitions, even if those are a little (or a lot) dangerous.

That the IoM would be banned in other countries just shows those countries up as being the frightened little nanny states they are.

[imdying]

He explained when he was younger his mum wouldn't let him. So I said so why don't you learn now. He replied "my wife won't let me". Now that's not living.You're right, not at all... that's called being a pussy whipped beyatch. His mum's decision I can understand and respect, but his wife...? Mind you, I don't blame her... he's the man of the house, the head of the home, he should be telling her what's what, not the other way around, but that aside, who is retarded enough to marry someone who is going to be opposed to living their dreams out?

[Edbear]

Should? Perhaps 'maybe should' would be better. It's not going to be the end of the world if you die, mum will still be able to look after the kids, and if not, your or your wifes parents. Children will be fine if their father dies, it's not the end of the world, and your wife would just remarry (after a suitable mourning period, or course).

Children are just children, they're not the most important most awesomest thing in the world that requires you to drop your entire life and loves over... sure they need consideration in almost every decision, but you're still your own person.

You don't have a burning passion for motorcycle road racing, so it will never make a lot of sense to you... but maybe some of PirateJafa's examples will help get across that family != end of your life/ambitions, even if those are a little (or a lot) dangerous.

That the IoM would be banned in other countries just shows those countries up as being the frightened little nanny states they are.

I think my post immediately before yours may explain things a bit better from my point of view. Certainly if you marry someone with the same passions and interests, as Paul obviously had, it may be a different story. But when you choose to marry someone and bring children into this world you have made a commitment to them to care for them and marriage is a sacrifice of one's own interests for the interests of the other. Too many see marriage as though they're employing a cook, cleaner and lover, while they continue to live the selfish life of a single person.

I'm afraid your post comes across as though from someone who is not married and does not have children and appears too casual and uncaring of the feelings and needs of a wife and children. I may be misjudging you, but have a read of what you've written from the viewpoint of a wife.

[slofox]

You could always do what I have done Edbear - wait until your kids have grown up and gone, wait until your are divorced and living on your own, wait until your health is compromised to the extent that your life expectancy is less than a decade... Then you can take as many risks as you want at no cost to anyone if you fuck up...works for me.

[imdying]

What, because I believe the man to be the head of the home and not letting my wife tell me what I can and can't do? It's a partnership, not a dictatorship, sure take her advice into consideration as you're unlikely to get a more balanced perspective from someone who knows you that well, but to be told you aboslutely "cannot" join biking like you've always wanted to just because of her say so, that's just ridiculous. As far as reading it from a wife's perspective; I wouldn't be foolish enough to marry someone who doesn't share my viewpoint on whether I can make my own decisions.

[R6_kid]

because people race to feel alive, not to live in the fear that they might die.

[Stirts]

But when you choose to marry someone and bring children into this world you have made a commitment to them to care for them and marriage is a sacrifice of one's own interests for the interests of the other.

I don't agree at all with this ..... marriage is about sharing your life/dreams/aspirations with another - making some compromises yes, but sacrificing something that you love/believe in plants the seeds for resentment and unhappiness IMHO.

If you are to partake in something that is life threatening/dangerous like the IoM you make "arrangements" to ensure your family will be looked after...financially/emotionally whatever.

[manxkiwi]

No one's mentioned road racing in Ireland. It's not banned there and probably won't be either. There are quite a number of tracks, fast ones too. Dundrod is currently the fastest circuit in use in the world! I like Guy Martin's comment that if you put cotton wool all around the course so no one could get hurt, no one would go!

Something I like to point out too sometimes, is: statistics. Yeah yeah, you make of them what you will and can use them to put forward your point of veiw. But if you divide miles done by deaths, the Mountain course is the safest track ever raced on! Normally between 500 and 700,000 miles are covered each fornight, multiply that by 103 years and you see the magnitude. How much fun and excitement has been had in all that time?

That's my two cents anyway MK

[Edbear]

You could always do what I have done Edbear - wait until your kids have grown up and gone, wait until your are divorced and living on your own, wait until your health is compromised to the extent that your life expectancy is less than a decade... Then you can take as many risks as you want at no cost to anyone if you fuck up...works for me.

LoL!!! Well the kids are all grown up and gone and my health and body aren't in the best shape but we've decided divorce is too expensive and we're too tired and can't be bothered, so we're staying married... ('Sides, she's still hot...:love:)


I don't agree at all with this ..... marriage is about sharing your life/dreams/aspirations with another - making some compromises yes, but sacrificing something that you love/believe in plants the seeds for resentment and unhappiness IMHO.

If you are to partake in something that is life threatening/dangerous like the IoM you make "arrangements" to ensure your family will be looked after...financially/emotionally whatever.

Maybe "sacrifice" is too strong a word here, yes, we share our lives and our desires and make compromises. I guess for me, my wife and kids come first and I live for them. It doesn't mean I don't do things for myself and for my own pleasure, but nothing comes ahead of my family, and as I said, seeing the fear and pain and tears on their faces as I fought to live in ICU, makes me keenly sensitive to the results of leaving them bereft.

Yes, there have been times I have resented having to sacrifice my own wants for my wife but the long term result is that I have a wife who genuinely appreciates me and wants to support me in things I want to do. Taking over this business meant she had to sacrifice much and endure the stress of struggling to pay bills, while she was the main income earner. She watched our money disappear down a seemingly bottomless pit with no return for months. Yet she has stood by me and done what she could to help me succeed.

I treasure her for that and I would make any sacrifice to give her and my children the best life I can. For these reasons, I would not do anything that would place my life at "needless" risk beyond the daily risks of living. Yes, I've enjoyed my biking, and hope to get back on a bike again. I'd even like to do a track day, but as I've pointed out there is a difference with events such as the IoM TT.

[madbikeboy]

Yeah, it's a dilemma. Cesare Parve once wrote that we don't remember, days, we only remember moments. With this passion, there is a downside; some of the side effects are brutal. We share responsibility for all of those around us who we love and who love us. Your lesson of sitting in ICU is a harsh one, a deciding moment that will influence the way you think in the future.

I wouldn't race at the Isle of Man; and I recall sitting with Paul at dinner a year or so ago in Wellington at a work do discussing him racing there - and I can recall the passion he had for the event. It's a difficult dilemma, matching the needs of everyone involved.

[scott411]

Something I like to point out too sometimes, is: statistics. Yeah yeah, you make of them what you will and can use them to put forward your point of veiw. But if you divide miles done by deaths, the Mountain course is the safest track ever raced on! Normally between 500 and 700,000 miles are covered each fornight, multiply that by 103 years and you see the magnitude. How much fun and excitement has been had in all that time?


but the track is only used a couple of times a year also, not year round like most purpose built race circuits,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Mountain_Course_fatal_accidents

[Maha]

129 have died at the IOM Track so it stands alone on that stat.
While I would not want to see the TT canned, and those that choose to race there know the exact risk, it must be said, why would ya? (yeah yeah, cos its there bla bla)
Barry Sheene wouldn't race there. The track itself has emmense safety issues, but I guess that adds to it.

You race there? there is that chance it will be your last outting.
In summary: Go forth and conquer lads.

[Edbear]

Yeah, it's a dilemma. Cesare Parve once wrote that we don't remember, days, we only remember moments. With this passion, there is a downside; some of the side effects are brutal. We share responsibility for all of those around us who we love and who love us. Your lesson of sitting in ICU is a harsh one, a deciding moment that will influence the way you think in the future.

I wouldn't race at the Isle of Man; and I recall sitting with Paul at dinner a year or so ago in Wellington at a work do discussing him racing there - and I can recall the passion he had for the event. It's a difficult dilemma, matching the needs of everyone involved.

You're right and I mentioned that my recent accident may also be an influence. It has heightened my sense of responsibility and shaken my confidence. I have been accident-free for 40 years apart from a couple of minor incidents, like falling off my bike at walking pace and being forced off a narrow gravel road by a cattle truck, again at very low speed, all over 30 years ago now, so to have such a serious accident at less than 50km/h and to nearly die as a result and experience the helplessness of a spin on oil, has shaken me up for sure. And also to see the effect on my wife and children, was sobering.

A passion for the sport is understandable and I know the thrill of high speeds and exploring the limits on a bike, revelling in the acceleration and watching the speedo climb into triple figures while banging away on the gear lever trying to keep up with the tach as it redlines so quickly in each gear... Yep! Love it! But this is about balancing safety and responsibility, especially where one has family to think about. I was always careful about when and where I let the bike, (or car for that matter), have its head and chose conditions that were conducive to it. I would not race at the IoM for the same reasons.


129 have died at the IOM Track so it stands alone on that stat.
While I would not want to see the TT canned, and those that choose to race there know the exact risk, it must be said, why would ya? (yeah yeah, cos its there bla bla)
Barry Sheene wouldn't race there. The track itself has emmense safety issues, but I guess that adds to it.

You race there? there is that chance it will be your last outting.
In summary: Go forth and conquer lads.

When it came to crashing, Barry was an expert! He broke just about every bone in his body at one time or another. By the end his legs were mostly metal! :yes:

[jellywrestler]

is not the same as racing at those same speeds on a road that has no consideration for safety and where almost any crash is going to hurt bad or result in death.

It is clear that you have a misinformed one eye'd opinion of the ISLE OF MAN TT Course. "no consideration for safety"
Racing and practice takes about ten days, some years there have been 600 competitors per meeting and I know the year I went the practice miles were approx 125000, and race miles approx 54000 in total, average speed was in the 123 MPH area. Apply those same numbers to many other tracks around the world and you'd find this track is not the most dangerous and as for no consideration to safety that's simply a through away comment that whoever utters it should be thrown away with the comment too.
Take Paul Dobbs record there, 37 finishes and prior to his final race he'd had just one DNF. Paul was the most experienced KIWI (interms of race miles)to race there since our first rider in 1910. He knew the risks and so did all those around him, he chose to ride and while I am saddened by his demise I have nothing but admiration for him both in life and now in death for balancing up those odds and making his own decisions.
RESPECT to the man and RESPECT to those who supported him, both then and now
SPYDA

[Edbear]

It is clear that you have a misinformed one eye'd opinion of the ISLE OF MAN TT Course. "no consideration for safety"
Racing and practice takes about ten days, some years there have been 600 competitors per meeting and I know the year I went the practice miles were approx 125000, and race miles approx 54000 in total, average speed was in the 123 MPH area. Apply those same numbers to many other tracks around the world and you'd find this track is not the most dangerous and as for no consideration to safety that's simply a through away comment that whoever utters it should be thrown away with the comment too.
Take Paul Dobbs record there, 37 finishes and prior to his final race he'd had just one DNF. Paul was the most experienced KIWI (interms of race miles)to race there since our first rider in 1910. He knew the risks and so did all those around him, he chose to ride and while I am saddened by his demise I have nothing but admiration for him both in life and now in death for balancing up those odds and making his own decisions.
RESPECT to the man and RESPECT to those who supported him, both then and now
SPYDA

You misunderstand me my friend. I said the road has no consideration for safety as I was contrasting it with a purpose designed race track. I know well how serious the officials and racers' take safety in racing and the efforts at the circuit to minimize the risk as much as possible. But everyone acknowledges the circuit is an unforgiving one and racer's compete knowing the heightened risk of racing on a public road at speeds the road was never designed for. The difference in a "proper" race track and the safety record of them testifies to the fact that the IoM TT is a far more inherently dangerous place with a corresponding increase in risk.

[Tony.OK]

Ed you have obviously had a profound moment in regards to your accident, and its made you see things in a new light.

For some people that happens, in any sport or situation, and they either decide to stop doing whatever they do, or keep going and try and be better.

Most people I would hazzard a guess live their whole lives without having an absolute passion, and thats just fine, but I think when someone has something that strong in their life and then meets someone that is prepared to support, love or just be there, its kinda special. I'm not just talking racing, you and your wife for eg sound like you have that in your own way.

Sure some will view a racer as being in a way selfish, but look at the other side, its not selfish if your partner/family fully supports and makes sacrifices for you to follow your dream...................thats true love dude, knowing what could happen, I think makes that even more special..............I'm no experienced racer but I know that my wife supports me regardless in whatever I choose to do, which rocks! When I decided to go racing she was so supportive (and is now my pit crew), we actually became much closer, yep she knows the risks, and has seen me takin off the track in an ambulance, but there has never been an inkling of dissaproval uttered from her lips.

Ahhh.......see now ya got me soundin all sappy........don't tell the missus:innocent:

On a comparative note...........what about rugby? How many injuries does that account for? Do partners have huge concerns about their partner/kids being hurt?
At the end of the day its all about perpective and who's it is really aye?

[Edbear]

Ed you have obviously had a profound moment in regards to your accident, and its made you see things in a new light.

For some people that happens, in any sport or situation, and they either decide to stop doing whatever they do, or keep going and try and be better.

Most people I would hazzard a guess live their whole lives without having an absolute passion, and thats just fine, but I think when someone has something that strong in their life and then meets someone that is prepared to support, love or just be there, its kinda special. I'm not just talking racing, you and your wife for eg sound like you have that in your own way.

Sure some will view a racer as being in a way selfish, but look at the other side, its not selfish if your partner/family fully supports and makes sacrifices for you to follow your dream...................thats true love dude, knowing what could happen, I think makes that even more special..............I'm no experienced racer but I know that my wife supports me regardless in whatever I choose to do, which rocks! When I decided to go racing she was so supportive (and is now my pit crew), we actually became much closer, yep she knows the risks, and has seen me takin off the track in an ambulance, but there has never been an inkling of dissaproval uttered from her lips.

Ahhh.......see now ya got me soundin all sappy........don't tell the missus:innocent:

On a comparative note...........what about rugby? How many injuries does that account for? Do partners have huge concerns about their partner/kids being hurt?
At the end of the day its all about perpective and who's it is really aye?

Okay, I won't tell... :shutup:

Thanks for that. I think you understand my point and as I mentioned, Paul's wife's press release was interesting.

I guess it is down to perception and one's life experiences and I do admire the skills of racer's, I'm not knocking racing, per se, but asking the question of those who race and have families to consider, whether the risk of such courses as the IoM are worth it. Shaun knows first hand about this as a survivor, and has decided to quit racing. I'd be interested in your thoughts, Shaun, as someone I have a great deal of respect for, both for your talent as a rider and your efforts in rehabilitation and rebuilding your life since.

Yes, maybe I'm a bit of a woose since my accident - I know it's going to take some time to get my mojo back, but I also know that the accident has changed me, more so perhaps than the other 4 times I've nearly died... Maybe I'm just getting old... :shifty:

[dipshit]

It has been said that the IoM is the reason there hasn't been many British world champs.

Someone I knew and used to race with was killed over there some years ago. http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database/competitors.aspx?ride_id=4373

It partly in turn made me think there was more to life than motorcycling and I took a break away from it for a few years and pursued other interests.

[Grubber]

Should? Perhaps 'maybe should' would be better. It's not going to be the end of the world if you die, mum will still be able to look after the kids, and if not, your or your wifes parents. Children will be fine if their father dies, it's not the end of the world, and your wife would just remarry (after a suitable mourning period, or course).

Children are just children, they're not the most important most awesomest thing in the world that requires you to drop your entire life and loves over... sure they need consideration in almost every decision, but you're still your own person.

You don't have a burning passion for motorcycle road racing, so it will never make a lot of sense to you... but maybe some of PirateJafa's examples will help get across that family != end of your life/ambitions, even if those are a little (or a lot) dangerous.

That the IoM would be banned in other countries just shows those countries up as being the frightened little nanny states they are.

Obviously not a Father.....thank Christ for that.

[SPman]

But when you choose to marry someone and bring children into this world you have made a commitment to them to care for them and marriage is a sacrifice of one's own interests for the interests of the other. Too many see marriage as though they're employing a cook, cleaner and lover, while they continue to live the selfish life of a single person.


I don't agree at all with this ..... marriage is about sharing your life/dreams/aspirations with another - making some compromises yes, but sacrificing something that you love/believe in plants the seeds for resentment and unhappiness IMHO.
I did all that - trying to keep some part of me sane - I saw out the kids through to leaving school. I was snowboarding, and taking more and more risks and not giving a damn! My older son said, when I told my wife "that's it, I'm through"...."if you were any lower (spiritually), you'd be under the floor!".
It almost destroyed me - it took several years of intensive bike riding to rebuild my soul!
Shared dreams and involvement of those concerned, knowing the risks - life is not a bag of cotton wool!
Immense respect, not just to Paul, but to his whole family!
It's too easy to give it all up for the sake of others and regret it all later........

[Edbear]

I did all that - trying to keep some part of me sane - I saw out the kids through to leaving school. I was snowboarding, and taking more and more risks and not giving a damn! My older son said, when I told my wife "that's it, I'm through"...."if you were any lower (spiritually), you'd be under the floor!".
It almost destroyed me - it took several years of intensive bike riding to rebuild my soul!
Shared dreams and involvement of those concerned, knowing the risks - life is not a bag of cotton wool!
Immense respect, not just to Paul, but to his whole family!
It's too easy to give it all up for the sake of others and regret it all later........

If I read you right, and do correct me if I'm wrong - you admit you were being selfish and putting your own interests first in your life to the detriment of your family? Your post is of one who should never have got married in the first place.

Women and children are people too, with their own dreams and desires and when you make a commitment to a family, you simply can't live as a single person selfishly and expect to have a happy family life. Maybe I have missed out on some things I'd have liked to do, but I fell in love, married and after 33 years, (this Oct.), I have an amazing family! My 3 children are all grown up and I was closely involved in that and I now have the joy of a grandson and another grandchild on the way. My wife is my best friend and companion and we are closer and more in love now than ever. My family is inseparable, each with their own life, two daughters married, but the love and bond we share makes the last 33 years well worth all the effort and sacrifice and anxiety that goes into a long term relationship.

I'm sure that anyone here who has been married a long time and has grown up children will appreciate all this. The truth of life is that you simply can't have it all, life is a compromise at the best of times and living only for oneself leaves you alone and empty in the end.

I don't criticise Paul for the choice he made as it was with the support of his wife, well, perhaps a wee bit for the sake of his children who had no say in his career, but I didn't know him personally so I won't judge him, as I won't judge anyone.

It is interesting to note comments by those who have been injured in racing and have reconsidered their career because of it. I know such as Shaun have earned huge respect for their decisions but also note that those who feel I am wrong or being unfair, are those who haven't raced and crashed as husbands and fathers.

People generally do what they believe is right for them which makes criticism unwelcome and many are defensive feeling they are being attacked or that the one critical of their choices has no right to be so. My purpose, as always, is to provoke thought, to challenge, to promote discussion so that we may hear other's views and perhaps see another viewpoint. The good thing about forums like KB is that there is a wide variety of people and opinions, of age and experience, and by having discussions like this we may gain a better understanding of issues and perhaps modify our own to our betterment.

[Kickaha]

It is interesting to note comments by those who have been injured in racing and have reconsidered their career because of it. I know such as Shaun have earned huge respect for their decisions

Shaun has been advertising for a sidecar on a UK site and looking to race one at the isle of Man so it doesn't look as though he has given up anything

[Edbear]

Shaun has been advertising for a sidecar on a UK site and looking to race one at the isle of Man so it doesn't look as though he has given up anything

Interesting, I'd like him to comment.

[Dutchee]

What about the young kid, who'd had so many concussions he got told to give up rugby or be in a chair for the rest of his life. Because he loved the sport, he decided the doctor hadn't said anything about touch rugby, so continued to play that. A couple of years later, he got killed by someone who decided to drive his car into a group of young kids.
He gave up something he loved for the right reasons, but he still died. That wasn't fair, he hadn't lived his life yet (he was 19).

I'm saddened by the loss of a friend, but also know how much he loved bikes & racing. I'm glad Bridget was with him this year.

I'm glad you're still around, and had Paul been in the same boat, things might've been different. But that's the way things have turned out for him and his lovely family, and we will never know any differently. My first memory when I heard the news was of him when we were talking with the girls at TRRS last year :)

[hellokitty]

My husband races and he had a big crash last year - luckily only a lot of minor injuries but it could have been so much worse. I had made a promise when I first met him not to make a fuss if he had an accident. I hated every minute of being strong at the hospital, crying quietly behind his back. I used to enjoy watching him race but now I just go in case something happens.
The weird thing is that the few crashes he has had is only when I am not there............
I knew what he did before we got together, and I know how much he loves it.

I agree with Edbear on one hand, but I also think (in my case) you shouldn't try to wrap the one you love in cotton wool (but damn I wish I could)

[Edbear]

What about the young kid, who'd had so many concussions he got told to give up rugby or be in a chair for the rest of his life. Because he loved the sport, he decided the doctor hadn't said anything about touch rugby, so continued to play that. A couple of years later, he got killed by someone who decided to drive his car into a group of young kids.
He gave up something he loved for the right reasons, but he still died. That wasn't fair, he hadn't lived his life yet (he was 19).

I'm saddened by the loss of a friend, but also know how much he loved bikes & racing. I'm glad Bridget was with him this year.

I'm glad you're still around, and had Paul been in the same boat, things might've been different. But that's the way things have turned out for him and his lovely family, and we will never know any differently. My first memory when I heard the news was of him when we were talking with the girls at TRRS last year :)


Life can be cruel and often unfair which probably leads people to take risks in order to have a "full" life and do things they love even if it carries higher risk reasoning, "I can die crossing the road, so why not have fun!" I understand that, but for me, despite facing death 5 times now, I still try to minimize risk as reasonably as I can. I have an aversion to pain and dying, so I wouldn't skydive or engage in other past-times that carry a good chance of getting hurt. But that's me.

As I said, maybe I'm a woose or just getting old, but really I'm talking about extra high risk activities. I've said I enjoy motorcycle racing in general, but on tracks designed for it, road racing is an order of magnitude greater in risk and circuits like the IoM, as beautiful and appealing as it may be to those who race there is inherently very dangerous.

[Edbear]

My husband races and he had a big crash last year - luckily only a lot of minor injuries but it could have been so much worse. I had made a promise when I first met him not to make a fuss if he had an accident. I hated every minute of being strong at the hospital, crying quietly behind his back. I used to enjoy watching him race but now I just go in case something happens.
The weird thing is that the few crashes he has had is only when I am not there............
I knew what he did before we got together, and I know how much he loves it.

I agree with Edbear on one hand, but I also think (in my case) you shouldn't try to wrap the one you love in cotton wool (but damn I wish I could)

You've hit the nail on the head, love!

My wife and kids went through the same with my accident. Now the irony here is that I nearly died obeying all the road rules and driving according to the conditions and no other person was involved, so some may think I am being unjustified with my concerns. But as I posted above, the difference is where one chooses an activity that carries a very great risk of harm, and such events as the IoM TT is noted and accepted as being a class above the norm where risk is concerned.

I got a PM from someone who's partner, (term used to disguise gender), made the hard choice to quit racing after a bad accident due to the effect on them and their children. Kitty if your husband were to read your post, what do you think he'd say?

[hellokitty]

You've hit the nail on the head, love!

My wife and kids went through the same with my accident. Now the irony here is that I nearly died obeying all the road rules and driving according to the conditions and no other person was involved, so some may think I am being unjustified with my concerns. But as I posted above, the difference is where one chooses an activity that carries a very great risk of harm, and such events as the IoM TT is noted and accepted as being a class above the norm where risk is concerned.

I got a PM from someone who's partner, (term used to disguise gender), made the hard choice to quit racing after a bad accident due to the effect on them and their children. Kitty if your husband were to read your post, what do you think he'd say?

He would tell me to harden the f up! He says I am too sensitive, and cry too easily. And yes I am too senstive and cry too easily - I told him that makes me the woman he wanted to marry.
I know my parents worry about me riding - my Mum in particular never got over a bad car accident I had a few years back - that is hard for her but I am going to do what I want to do.

I can see the selfishness on both our parts ..... I have lived my life scared of everything and all the risks involved. It is only in the past few years I have said to hell with it and just done it.
In fact, since meeting my husband and all the things I have wished I could do, he has encouraged me to do them.
reminded me of a post in this thread about the skydiving - the 15 year old kid that will never take the risk- sounded like me and I felt so bad for the parent who can see the limitations that the child will have in their life (sorry I can remember who it was - will go check)

[hellokitty]

The funny thing is as a parent I can see what my kids are like. The 15 year old (who didn't jump) is most likely to have money problems, relationship problems and I think will choose to have a tougher life. Her fears and being limited by what others think seems to me to be more of a problem. I don't for one minute think she should be more adventurous because me and my wife are.

This is the post I meant. This kid sounds like me - poor kid. But what can you do? Nothing, you just have to let them be.

[Berries]

Yes, maybe I'm a bit of a woose since my accident - I know it's going to take some time to get my mojo back, but I also know that the accident has changed me, more so perhaps than the other 4 times I've nearly died... Maybe I'm just getting old... :shifty:
Maybe you are.:msn-wink:
Risk is relative, and what is an acceptable level of risk is different for every one of us. You are still going to ride your bike right ? To many people that means you are a crash waiting to happen. Those people would never understand the TT, mind you, I am not sure that you do either. I know that I wouldn't have the balls to ride the circuit at full chat, but have immense respect for those that do.

There are things you can do where the consequences of getting it wrong can be final. In my view it is those same pastimes where the feeling of getting it right feeds the dopamine addiction to such an extent that you will keep on doing it, even after you get married and 'settle down'. And that is what life is all about. As an ex skydiver however I don't think you can compare that and the TT. Most of the risk has been taken out of jumping, it is just a perception based on how things were in the bad old days, a bit like riding bikes in the 70's.

[Edbear]

Maybe you are.:msn-wink:
Risk is relative, and what is an acceptable level of risk is different for every one of us. You are still going to ride your bike right ? To many people that means you are a crash waiting to happen. Those people would never understand the TT, mind you, I am not sure that you do either. I know that I wouldn't have the balls to ride the circuit at full chat, but have immense respect for those that do.

There are things you can do where the consequences of getting it wrong can be final. In my view it is those same pastimes where the feeling of getting it right feeds the dopamine addiction to such an extent that you will keep on doing it, even after you get married and 'settle down'. And that is what life is all about. As an ex skydiver however I don't think you can compare that and the TT. Most of the risk has been taken out of jumping, it is just a perception based on how things were in the bad old days, a bit like riding bikes in the 70's.

I agree, and well said. Not the bit about getting old... :innocent: I can understand as a rider who has "explored the limits" of my riding and the bike, the thrill of "getting it right" and feeling the bike at its limits, so if you extrapolate that to racing and seeing the faces of the riders after they have won a race, I can understand how a rider can look at the challenge of such a circuit and feel elated to have "conquered" it. However the consequences of failure are dire and far worse than a purpose-designed race track where most crashes see the rider scrambling to his feet and trying to restart the bike, even at speeds over 200km/h.


I guess it is, in the end, up to us as individuals to decide what is "acceptable risk". My personal view is that for me, I try to ensure I live as long as possible in as good a health as possible in a world where accidents occur and death is indiscriminate. So because of my family relationship and my own priorities, I wouldn't race at a venue where I consider the risk too great. I would love to try a track day at a race track where it is designed for it, but wouldn't race a road circuit.

However having said that, I think the record of Paeroa, despite the sad fatality at the last one, shows that a tighter circuit where speeds are much lower can be fun.

[slowpoke]

Those who understand need no explanation, for those who do not understand no explanantion is possible. (poorly paraphrased)

Sorry Ed, you obviously have an opinion/philosophy on how to "live" your life and seem to be defending/advocating it. Good luck with that.

Others have a different way of living their lives, get used to it.

For an explanantion closer to home: Craig Shirriffs at Hampton Downs recently. To you he would seem to be defying every sensibility, to me he was inspirational. So, do you wanna be a sensible Dad....or an inspirational Dad?

[Edbear]

Those who understand need no explanation, for those who do not understand no explanantion is possible. (poorly paraphrased)

Sorry Ed, you obviously have an opinion/philosophy on how to "live" your life and seem to be defending/advocating it. Good luck with that.

Others have a different way of living their lives, get used to it.

For an explanantion closer to home: Craig Shirriffs at Hampton Downs recently. To you he would seem to be defying every sensibility, to me he was inspirational. So, do you wanna be a sensible Dad....or an inspirational Dad?

I'd like to be a Dad for as long as possible, inspirational or not. I see your point, but I think you, as others here have missed mine.

My point is about choosing an activity that has a very high chance of death or serious injury when one has family responsibilities. Note I have already made the difference between racing on tracks or circuits designed for it and have said I'd like to do a track day. I'm not advocating the "cotton wool" approach to life. My accident clearly illustrates the hazards of daily life and it won't stop me driving or riding.

Craig, as with many other riders make their choices as to acceptable risk, and even Valentino can break his leg along with the best of them. Would Craig and Valentino race the IoM TT?

I'm talking about circumstances over and above the "norm", not living in a bubble. Maybe my aversion to skydiving is more personal than based on safety - as has been pointed out it is fairly safe these days - but then I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do.

Try to understand my viewpoint here.

As to being a "Sensible" Dad, I have mentioned I have nearly died 5 times, and the circumstances and situations I have been through and survived, have resulted in my children, sons-in-law, my wife and extended family to call me an inspiration to them. My children and my siblings call me their hero. I'm not gloating, as I simply feel I've had some tough times but I'm no different from many others who have likewise suffered and endured setbacks of all kinds including noted and respected members of this forum.

As a family we have always been outgoing and adventurous, enjoying NZ's environment from mountain to sea, my wife and I have enjoyed many miles of biking together, and I've already said more than once that I'd like to experience a track day. So you're being a bit unfair to insinuate I am a passive spectator to life and not an inspiration to my family.

Please, again, understand that I am differentiating between doing an activity, in this case motorcycle racing, in a purpose designed environment as against an unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error, where the risk factor jumps by an order of magnitude. Okay if one is single without family to care for perhaps, but these children have lost their beloved Dad, and it should give us all pause to think.

[Stirts]

My point is about choosing an activity that has a very high chance of death or serious injury when one has family responsibilities.

With choosing an activity the risk perception of said activity is a very individual thing. And as you said “I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do”

What you see as “unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error” and “over and above the "norm" Paul and others that race the IoM TT see a place to test their skill level amongst their peers. Your perceived risk of IoM TT and that of the men who race there would of course differ.

Does having a family change the way we perceive risk? For some of course it does, but not for all.

[Edbear]

With choosing an activity the risk perception of said activity is a very individual thing. And as you said “I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do”

What you see as “unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error” and “over and above the "norm" Paul and others that race the IoM TT see a place to test their skill level amongst their peers. Your perceived risk of IoM TT and that of the men who race there would of course differ.

Does having a family change the way we perceive risk? For some of course it does, but not for all.

I don't think it's a matter of perceived risk, I think you'll find that even the most avid of the racer's would acknowledge the higher risk level of the TT. It's noted around the world as being an unforgiving circuit and anyone would agree that compared to a purpose designed race track, it's a case of chalk and cheese.

There has been concern at the highest level, both by Govt. and organisers at the way the speeds have crept up over the years with many new records of laptime, max speeds and average speeds, becoming too fast for the circuit, yet there is a real reluctance to either cancel the event or limit the size of bikes racing there. The IoM TT is an icon, and a dilemma for the organisers and the Govt. as to how best to manage the risk.

Now you've got 600's posting +120mph laps. Bikes are getting faster and better and more and more, accidents are likely to be fatal, it's a simple matter of physics. Some have posted the history of the circuit, but you must remember it started when bikes were struggling to top 60mph, now they're topping out at 3x that speed. Even purpose built race tracks are being modified to cope with the speeds attainable on modern machinery with improvements to run-offs and barrier materials in an effort to keep the riders as safe as possible. You can't do that at the TT or most road circuits for that matter.

[slowpoke]

Exactly what are these "responsibilities" you speak of?

If you asked just about anybody to rank qualities they'd like to see in a parent/partner I reckon "longevity" would be waaaaay down the list.

Nah, quite frankly I don't care what you think is important. You seem intent on defending your life choices and deriding others so there is no winning this argument.

And for the record, Craig won a Best Newcomer Award for his efforts at the IOM. It's part of why he and Stroudy (another IOM competitor) are head and shoulders above the rest of the current racers in NZ. They have the drive to not only persue their dreams but also the hard won skills to achieve them. What better example could you set?

But do what ever helps ya sleep at night mate, and let others do the same.
I'd like to be a Dad for as long as possible, inspirational or not. I see your point, but I think you, as others here have missed mine.

My point is about choosing an activity that has a very high chance of death or serious injury when one has family responsibilities. Note I have already made the difference between racing on tracks or circuits designed for it and have said I'd like to do a track day. I'm not advocating the "cotton wool" approach to life. My accident clearly illustrates the hazards of daily life and it won't stop me driving or riding.

Craig, as with many other riders make their choices as to acceptable risk, and even Valentino can break his leg along with the best of them. Would Craig and Valentino race the IoM TT?

I'm talking about circumstances over and above the "norm", not living in a bubble. Maybe my aversion to skydiving is more personal than based on safety - as has been pointed out it is fairly safe these days - but then I may choose other activities that other people wouldn't want to do.

Try to understand my viewpoint here.

As to being a "Sensible" Dad, I have mentioned I have nearly died 5 times, and the circumstances and situations I have been through and survived, have resulted in my children, sons-in-law, my wife and extended family to call me an inspiration to them. My children and my siblings call me their hero. I'm not gloating, as I simply feel I've had some tough times but I'm no different from many others who have likewise suffered and endured setbacks of all kinds including noted and respected members of this forum.

As a family we have always been outgoing and adventurous, enjoying NZ's environment from mountain to sea, my wife and I have enjoyed many miles of biking together, and I've already said more than once that I'd like to experience a track day. So you're being a bit unfair to insinuate I am a passive spectator to life and not an inspiration to my family.

Please, again, understand that I am differentiating between doing an activity, in this case motorcycle racing, in a purpose designed environment as against an unforgiving environment not designed for such high speeds and with precious little room for error, where the risk factor jumps by an order of magnitude. Okay if one is single without family to care for perhaps, but these children have lost their beloved Dad, and it should give us all pause to think.

[Berries]

I'm talking about circumstances over and above the "norm", not living in a bubble.
But whose norm ? You'd like to do a track day at some point. Riding a motorbike on a racing circuit ? Utter madness in the eyes of some people.

I don't think you will ever get an answer to your question, because everyone is different. There is no norm, other than on Cheers.

[Edbear]

Exactly what are these "responsibilities" you speak of?

If you asked just about anybody to rank qualities they'd like to see in a parent/partner I reckon "longevity" would be waaaaay down the list.

Nah, quite frankly I don't care what you think is important. You seem intent on defending your life choices and deriding others so there is no winning this argument.

And for the record, Craig won a Best Newcomer Award for his efforts at the IOM. It's part of why he and Stroudy (another IOM competitor) are head and shoulders above the rest of the current racers in NZ. They have the drive to not only persue their dreams but also the hard won skills to achieve them. What better example could you set?

But do what ever helps ya sleep at night mate, and let others do the same.

Sigh... Why is it that some can't get over the person and see the post. Did you read my post immediately above yours?

Each person has to decide what, for them, is acceptable risk, balancing the odds. I have done no more than point out what is well known, understood and recognised about the IoM. Recognized and acknowledged by the racers themselves and the organisers and the Govt. Recognized and acknowledged around the world - as so many have said the event would be banned in most other countries. I am not in any way a minority in my opinion nor am I trying to impose my views on others. Mentioning my own life's experiences is only to respond to the implication I am spectator wanting to wrap everyone in cotton wool.

You are being facetious and betraying a strange view that longevity is not important to "just about anyone". You may be a hard-hearted person but everyone I know doesn't want to lose their mate or anyone they love and care about, and do not normally participate in death-defying acitivities just to be "an inspiration". A dead hero, is just that, and his talents and his influence for good, his character that made him popular have also died. The loved ones left behind to grieve.

Now try to understand, life sucks at times and my own recent accident is testimony to that. You miss the point that I am referring to circumstances beyond the "norm" and see my response to Berries for that.


But whose norm ? You'd like to do a track day at some point. Riding a motorbike on a racing circuit ? Utter madness in the eyes of some people.

I don't think you will ever get an answer to your question, because everyone is different. There is no norm, other than on Cheers.

Yeah, I'm not referring to life itself, and the 'norm' I refer to is daily life, which obviously involves activities carrying risk. The road toll in NZ testifies to the risk of driving/riding on the open road, yet we do it every day. We fly planes, race all manner of machinery, dive, climb mountains, explore... and as you say we all have differing views on what is 'sane' and 'safe'.

But as I said to slowpoke above, as regards road racing and in particular circuits such as the TT, everyone including the racers, acknowledge the far higher risk of a circuit not designed for the very high speeds now being achieved as opposed to a purpose built track.

So I question that those who have a loving family to consider, weigh up the potential cost. I can, as I've said, fully understand the attraction, the thrill, the desire to race and I'm not opposed to that per se, and some of the responses have been enlightening and I appreciate many of the opinions expressed. Some, though display an attitude that would make me hope they are not married with children...

[Shaun]

Sorry I don't mean to offend, I'm just saddened by the premature death of such an obviously well liked person.


I 100% agree with Tony on this

[Dare]

This whole thread.

I think what it comes down to is would you rather die doing what you love or live doing what you don't?
People are not the same. You can't force them to be either.

The best sometimes die, but if they didn't do what they did, they wouldn't be the best. That is who they are.
If Picasso didn't paint because it would be too risky, would he be happy? Would he be remembered?

[Edbear]

I think what it comes down to is would you rather die doing what you love or live doing what you don't?
People are not the same. You can't force them to be either.

The best sometimes die, but if they didn't do what they did, they wouldn't be the best. That is who they are.
If Picasso didn't paint because it would be too risky, would he be happy? Would he be remembered?

Your point is quite valid of course and I understand why people do what they do. My point was re: balancing responsibilities when making such decisions.

I have asked the Mods to delete the split thread following discussions with a KB member whom I have a great deal of respect for due to the sensitive timing. And I would like to apologise to anyone concerned if I have sounded insensitive. It was never my intention to do so.

[imdying]

I have asked the Mods to delete the split thread following discussions with a KB member whom I have a great deal of respect for due to the sensitive timing. And I would like to apologise to anyone concerned if I have sounded insensitive. It was never my intention to do so.That's a shame; it appears you've scared the crap out of yourself in your off and this has given you the opportunity to work some things out in your own mind. If that's the case, then it's nice that in at least some small way some good might have come out of what is a shit time for the people concerned... it's also likely that you're not alone in these thoughts, so the thread has quite likely helped not only just yourself.

[Edbear]

That's a shame; it appears you've scared the crap out of yourself in your off and this has given you the opportunity to work some things out in your own mind. If that's the case, then it's nice that in at least some small way some good might have come out of what is a shit time for the people concerned... it's also likely that you're not alone in these thoughts, so the thread has quite likely helped not only just yourself.

Thanks mate. I think you're quite right and I hope something positive has come out of it. But I know there are people hurting at present and I was made aware of this by a well respected KB member who himself has been an inspiration to most of us here.

[Stirts]

I am in agreement with Imdying. I think you should retract your request to the mods for removal. As you said "it should give us all pause to think"

[jellywrestler]

your biggest worry edbear looks like RSI from all your typing.

[slowpoke]

Your point is quite valid of course and I understand why people do what they do. My point was re: balancing responsibilities when making such decisions.

I have asked the Mods to delete the split thread following discussions with a KB member whom I have a great deal of respect for due to the sensitive timing. And I would like to apologise to anyone concerned if I have sounded insensitive. It was never my intention to do so.


That's a shame; it appears you've scared the crap out of yourself in your off and this has given you the opportunity to work some things out in your own mind. If that's the case, then it's nice that in at least some small way some good might have come out of what is a shit time for the people concerned... it's also likely that you're not alone in these thoughts, so the thread has quite likely helped not only just yourself.


I am in agreement with Imdying. I think you should retract your request to the mods for removal. As you said "it should give us all pause to think"

Nup, it's offensive, hurtful and judgmental from someone who knows very little about the activity and/or people involved. You think someone enters the IoM without "pausing to think"? Fool.

[Edbear]

Nup, it's offensive, hurtful and judgmental from someone who knows very little about the activity and/or people involved. You think someone enters the IoM without "pausing to think"? Fool.

What was that they say about opinions? You're quite entitiled to yours, but it would appear that you are in the minority in your humble opinion...

I have had a discussion with the member I mentioned who was much more diplomatic than you and I respect his opinion highly as one who is personally involved. It was following this discussion that I have apologised for any offence I may have caused and asked for the thread to be deleted. This member, contrary to your good self, understands that I meant no offence and had good intentions and we remain friends. Posts such as yours are those from someone who is reactionary and judgmental, quick to criticise and factually incorrect, making assumptions about people you don't know.

I have followed the IoM TT for as long as anyone here, and know quite a lot about it, and the people who organise and race there, thank you.

The judgment of the Mod, who pointed out to me site policy, is that the thread should remain and I accept his decision. I'm sure members on the whole will agree with the decision and won't be upset. Of course everyone is free to comment and by expressing themselves can only bring understanding and balance to what is obviously a sensitive topic.

[Kiwi Graham]

Its was me that asked for your posts to be removed from the initial thread.

It was insensative, poorly timed and not required.

Its is perfectly correct that your comments are in a seperate thread.

The reason the "majority" are agreeing with you is because the 'minority' (who actually get out there and participate) feel getting into this debate is pointless and remains in bad taste at this time.

No further comment from me.

[sinfull]

I recently did a skydive, sure it was a tandum and there hadn't been an accident in thousands and thousands of jumps, but there was a risk of one . There are ppl who say "bugger that your mad "I" wouldn't do one, if shit happens you could die" ! That's their choice !
I smoke ! Ppl say to me "your mad, it could kill you" , but i choose to smoke !
Recently the gubbermunt decided that they would try to enforce a give up smoking tax to price smoking out of many budgets, taking away ppls freedom of choice, That grates me !
Many of your posts on this thread have stated in a round about way that perhaps the IOM organisers or the gubberment should rethink whether the race should perhaps be canned or limited to slower bikes ? Why ?
Many parts of the world are overpopulated to the point where many children starve, it almost seems inhumane to let them have children, shall we enforce sterilisation apon these ppls ?

The racers who race the IOM choose to do so, they're not forced ! What your implying is to take away their freedom of choice !

[FROSTY]

Edbear trying to explain our addiction to racing or mountain climbing,skydiving etc is in reality impossible (in my opinion) You either get it or you don't.
Would I race IOMTT? IN AN INSTANT. Not even a moments hesitation. WILL I race it ? I plan to.

[Stirts]

You think someone enters the IoM without "pausing to think"? Fool.


I recently did a skydive, sure it was a tandum and there hadn't been an accident in thousands and thousands of jumps, but there was a risk of one . There are ppl who say "bugger that your mad "I" wouldn't do one, if shit happens you could die" ! That's their choice !
I smoke ! Ppl say to me "your mad, it could kill you" , but i choose to smoke !
Recently the gubbermunt decided that they would try to enforce a give up smoking tax to price smoking out of many budgets, taking away ppls freedom of choice, That grates me !
Many of your posts on this thread have stated in a round about way that perhaps the IOM organisers or the gubberment should rethink whether the race should perhaps be canned or limited to slower bikes ? Why ?
Many parts of the world are overpopulated to the point where many children starve, it almost seems inhumane to let them have children, shall we enforce sterilisation apon these ppls ?

The racers who race the IOM choose to do so, they're not forced ! What your implying is to take away their freedom of choice !

The way I interpreted some of Edbears posts was simply that we should ALL reflect on what is important to us, what we are passionate about and live life that way. I didn't read it as an attack on the IoM TT or the people who race.

As Bridget Dobbs said she had no regrets as "our lives have been immeasurably enriched by the TT and the Isle of Man". "Dobsy died doing what he most loved, in a place he loved and felt at home and surrounded by people he loved and admired.

What a way to live your life - truly awesome!!!

[Shaun]

Hi, It was ME that asked Ed to remove this thread, AS I KNOW WHAT FAMILY AND FRIENDS are going to do, to try and hang on to our mate as long as possible YES I DO KNOW!

Ed understood my logic, and agreed to ask for it to be removed, so the FAMILY AND FRIENDS do NOT have to read our thoughts on the subject!!!!!!!

Maybe in time start it again, but PLEASE put it to bed for now

[imdying]

Nup, it's offensive, hurtful and judgmental from someone who knows very little about the activity and/or people involved. You think someone enters the IoM without "pausing to think"? Fool.You jumped up little prick, what a fucked up way to twist what that person wrote.

Offensive hurtful and judgemental would be "What sort of stupid fuckwit goes off and kills themselves playing at motorcycle racing in the most dangerous place in the world when they've fuck all chance of winning, just like the last 30+ races". That post was nothing like that so get off your high horse and stick your wanky post up your arse.

[sinfull]

The way I interpreted some of Edbears posts was simply that we should ALL reflect on what is important to us, what we are passionate about and live life that way. I didn't read it as an attack on the IoM TT or the people who race.

As Bridget Dobbs said she had no regrets as "our lives have been immeasurably enriched by the TT and the Isle of Man". "Dobsy died doing what he most loved, in a place he loved and felt at home and surrounded by people he loved and admired.

What a way to live your life - truly awesome!!! Point taken and i appologise Ed , there was only one post where you hinted they may have to look at limitations !

[Shaun]

Mods please delete this thread fast

[onearmedbandit]

At the request of the OP and other members this thread is now locked.