Damn scary - new ambulance probe [Archive]

dogsnbikes

17th June 2010, 08:17

Sorry to hear this Kari, sounds as if theres a lot more room for improvement. That's a big error!

Thats for sure.....How basic does basic knowledge of the local area have too be ?Do we really live in a society where we are totally dependent on some eletronic thingymebob to tell us where too go and where we are???

It's not like Tahora isn't well sign posted comming from the stratford end,and for the driver not too know what a rapid number is FFS,not too mention the driver being out of hours.....:shit:

Maybe 43 should be a composary helicopter zone from Tangarakau Gorge to Whangamomona Saddle

Little Miss Trouble

17th June 2010, 08:20

Kari, I'm so sorry to hear that, sending hugs your way.

Rapid numbers have been around for AT LEAST 7 years now, we had one before I escaped Northland in 03

Urano

17th June 2010, 08:35

a bit scary to me.
i've been an emergency volunteer for a while... we started the "modern" emergency service in mid '90s, activating the "118" as unified emergency service and linkin all the resources together.
every call arrives to a triage specialized nurse that assign a code (white, green, yellow, red) to the call and coordinating the actions... with a red code call (life threat) we have a service maximum of 5 minutes on site if within the city, and 15 minutes on site if in the country.
then there are different levels of operation: there's the normal ambulance with a driver a nurse and a m.d. or two nurses if the call is maximum a yellow code, there's the resuscitating unit ambulance, with more specific machines, then there is the medical car, which is a normal fast car used to transport a m.d. and emergency equipment to the injured person to stabilize him and wait for the ambulance to take him to the hospital, and there is the helicopter too.
usually medical car is used to arrange rendez vous with ambulance, to get an m.d. on it or to get the doctor to the site of the accident. helicopters are pretty frequent, we have 3 bases within 100 km.
the triage operator can send the data of the call and the coordinates of the injured directly to the ambulance computer via data link, and it will show the direct route to the driver with gps.
actually the gps connection was so slow, years ago, that a lot of experienced drivers knew the route by their own and did not wait for it...
the situation is pretty good here, but there are areas in the south of italy where there are difficulties even with the unified number...
then there is the problem with localization: we are the only european country where a mobile cannot be tracked automatically by police or emergency services, so if the caller don't know exactly where he is there is no way to find him... it's a shame...

the only thing that makes it work is that we've covered with streets every single meter of soil: so we have very minimal situations of "country calls".
you are in the opposite situation, i think: lot of surface of country yard with solo houses in the middle of nothing.

why don't activate a radiobeacon system for the most lonely places, or keep people aware of their home gps coordinates to communicate to the operator?

BoristheBiter

17th June 2010, 08:45

Now lets put all the good storys about ambos getting there on time and saving a life.
I bet they outway the negitive ones.
Yes it is a shame it happened but we don't live in a perfect world.

first it was cops now ambos, fire will do something wrong next and the media will blow that up with the "our services are all crap" line.

Nasty you do a fantasic job and we would all be crying without you. don't let this get you down.
I know all to well how crap the comms can be sometimes.

BoristheBiter

17th June 2010, 08:47

Oh What is a rapid number?

Mom

17th June 2010, 09:00

Oh What is a rapid number?

http://www.police.govt.nz/tenone/20050722-275/feature_rapid.htm

Completely inexcusable that an emergency response worker in a rural area did not know what a rapid number is.

Urano

17th June 2010, 09:07

http://www.police.govt.nz/tenone/20050722-275/feature_rapid.htm
Completely inexcusable that an emergency response worker in a rural area did not know what a rapid number is.

that's SMART!!! :niceone:
and even simpler than gps...

(i thought that with "rapid" you intended numbers as 911 or 111 or 112... :( what an ignorance... )

Mom

17th June 2010, 09:09

that's SMART!!! :niceone:
and even simpler than gps...

(i thought that with "rapid" you intended numbers as 911 or 111 or 112... :( what an ignorance... )

They are fantastic in a rural area. The number is the distance from the intersection, easy peasy to work out. I am staggered that an ambulance driver in a rural area was not aware of them.

Taz

17th June 2010, 09:13

Oh What is a rapid number?

Your ticket quota I think?

Naki Rat

17th June 2010, 09:16

In depth interview on National Radio now. What a cluster f*ck! - Link here (http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0006/2324769/ntn-20100617-0908-Taranaki_ambulance_delays-m048.asx)

Urano

17th June 2010, 09:21

Nasty, i've understood now the reason of your concern... i'm sorry... couldn't know...

keep though, make noise on it, offer ideas to get it better: you are surely not the only one who want it never to happen again.

boman

17th June 2010, 09:33

That sucks. Despite all your hard work, and the assurances, they are still getting it wrong. For people to have to wait for such a long period is incomprehensible. If it continues like this, it will cost more lives. That is inexcusable, in my opinion.

CookMySock

17th June 2010, 09:45

"An investigation is well under way to ascertain why this has occurred."

"Mr Fletcher had given the dispatcher their Rural Address Property Identification (Rapid) number, which gives the property's distance from Stratford, but the information was not understood by the ambulance driver."

What is there not to get? The driver didn't "understand" the Rapid number - pardon me? How is that possible? It doesn't sound like a systems failure to me, it sounds like a driver fuck up.

Steve

BoristheBiter

17th June 2010, 09:48

http://www.police.govt.nz/tenone/20050722-275/feature_rapid.htm

Completely inexcusable that an emergency response worker in a rural area did not know what a rapid number is.

Oh that, its that what they call it.

Not all numbers work to this. My gps works to these numbers and half of them in TeKuiti don't work, our street up here is numbered backwards, and there are many roads that have other roads joined together.

It is not right that it takes this long to get to someone and something should be done but how do you know that this ambo is not just new to the area, new to the job.

Naki Rat

17th June 2010, 09:54

What is there not to get? The driver didn't "understand" the Rapid number - pardon me? How is that possible? It doesn't sound like a systems failure to me, it sounds like a driver fuck up.

Steve

You've got that spot on. The driver was recently from Hawera (south Taranaki) and had no knowledge of the area, never having been there even in daylight. And he didn't have a clue what a rapid number is :no: He was literally driving blind.

Naki Rat

17th June 2010, 09:59

Oh that, its that what they call it.

Not all numbers work to this. My gps works to these numbers and half of them in TeKuiti don't work, our street up here is numbered backwards, and there are many roads that have other roads joined together.

It is not right that it takes this long to get to someone and something should be done but how do you know that this ambo is not just new to the area, new to the job.
Rapid numbers don't apply to urban areas. They are a simple and effective way to locate rural addresses. For example a road/rapid number of 725 means it is 7.25km from the start of the relevant road and being an odd number means it is on the left side of the road (travelling away from the 'zero' end). Unfortunately the driver in this case was clueless regarding the rapid system.

CookMySock

17th June 2010, 10:04

You've got that spot on. The driver was recently from Hawera (south Taranaki) and had no knowledge of the area, never having been there even in daylight. And he didn't have a clue what a rapid number is :no: He was literally driving blind.Maybe he should buy a motorbike and go do some touring? Perhaps that would be a viable solution to their problem?

Are drivers regularly sent on near-impossible training exercises? If I was training them, I flick them some real fucking curly ones viz "13xblackstump^4+4xblackstump-postoffice" that will make their head spin. :yes:

Geez it's not like they are run ragged all day while waiting for a call is it? They should get on their bike and go figure out where shit is, instead of having another round of bikkies and tea.

Steve

avgas

17th June 2010, 10:06

I love the ambu's.
They are a god sent.
Just felt like saying that - to show that for every fuckup there are probably a million of us who feel the Ambus are doing a good job

CookMySock

17th June 2010, 10:15

for every fuckup there are probably a million of us who feel the Ambus are doing a good jobI agree, but there's a difference between an "oops" and a really dangerous and preventable "oops" that causes ordinary people real consequences.

It's normal to tread hard on people who cause the latter, and if they don't like it they should either re-think their level of commitment to their job, or else get a different one, and thats just the way the world goes around.

Steve

Ixion

17th June 2010, 11:37

http://www.police.govt.nz/tenone/20050722-275/feature_rapid.htm

Completely inexcusable that an emergency response worker in a rural area did not know what a rapid number is.

Oh. I thought those "blue numbers" were something to do with milk tankers. They're really good though, if I have to find somewhere out of town I always ask "what's your blue number". Street numbers and vague descriptions dependant on big trees and herds of Fresian llamas always end in tears.

BoristheBiter

17th June 2010, 12:27

Rapid numbers don't apply to urban areas. They are a simple and effective way to locate rural addresses. For example a road/rapid number of 725 means it is 7.25km from the start of the relevant road and being an odd number means it is on the left side of the road (travelling away from the 'zero' end). Unfortunately the driver in this case was clueless regarding the rapid system.

Well i will keep that in mind when i move into an urban area.

Nasty

17th June 2010, 12:57

I agree, but there's a difference between an "oops" and a really dangerous and preventable "oops" that causes ordinary people real consequences.

It's normal to tread hard on people who cause the latter, and if they don't like it they should either re-think their level of commitment to their job, or else get a different one, and thats just the way the world goes around.

Steve

I think it goes a bit deeper than a lot of the thoughts here. To me there is a systemic fault that is happening and without proper analysis (which I don't feel happened with Grubs case fully) they won't find the problem.

The level of analysis done through Root Cause Analysis is good. Its used in aviation and been adapted for health.

It is easy to deal with the issues that can be "seen" from the problems around, but finding the systemic fault is harder and often, I think, brings some home truths that people don't want to hear, those people who head these organisations or front them. It is far easier to deal with the surface than delve down into the guts of what is going wrong.

scott411

17th June 2010, 13:25

Oh. I thought those "blue numbers" were something to do with milk tankers. They're really good though, if I have to find somewhere out of town I always ask "what's your blue number". Street numbers and vague descriptions dependant on big trees and herds of Fresian llamas always end in tears.

the blue numbers you talk about are Dairy Company numbers are only on dairy farms, the rapid numbers are on white back grounds with red numbers, they are on most farm gates now,

i deal with getting alot of ambluences to remote area's with the trail rides and mxers i run, and have asked to get some kind of rapid number listed with st johns to arrange quicker location identity with the call centre's, in remote area's we always send someone to the closest major intersection to bring them in,

bmwilly

17th June 2010, 13:27

Ronin

17th June 2010, 13:40

You've got that spot on. The driver was recently from Hawera (south Taranaki) and had no knowledge of the area, never having been there even in daylight. And he didn't have a clue what a rapid number is :no: He was literally driving blind.

Then it is a system failure as the driver should never have been put in this position. Yes the driver messed up but there should be a requirement for any person responding to rural calls to have a knowledge of the rapid system.

BoristheBiter

17th June 2010, 14:02

I think it goes a bit deeper than a lot of the thoughts here. To me there is a systemic fault that is happening and without proper analysis (which I don't feel happened with Grubs case fully) they won't find the problem.

The level of analysis done through Root Cause Analysis is good. Its used in aviation and been adapted for health.

It is easy to deal with the issues that can be "seen" from the problems around, but finding the systemic fault is harder and often, I think, brings some home truths that people don't want to hear, those people who head these organisations or front them. It is far easier to deal with the surface than delve down into the guts of what is going wrong.

And yet everyone just continues to blame the ambo driver.

IMHO it comes from a business model when, although there is a similarity, it is not a business.
It will never make money and running it on systems where this is the end result is just asking for trouble.

The top brass just say “make it happen" but the resources needed to implement changes or new systems are not there.
FFS the air ambos are all run on donations so tells you a lot.

yungatart

17th June 2010, 15:21

So was the ambulance single crew as well?
All the more reason NOT to have single crew ambos.
A second person aboard could have saved lots of time looking for the place and also driven the ambo back.
All the more reason for double crews on ALL ambos.

JMemonic

17th June 2010, 16:00

I am thinking Nasty has it right, its systemic faults at issue.

Dispatch/comms should have had a system that provides better awareness of the area with maps on display , they should have systems that would give them rough idea of the travel times and be asking the driver/crews part way through the journeys about locations.

Crews need to be confident they can ask comms for information and direction an get the right info. The problems lay in management and 'modern' management methods. Employing consultants to fix problems that staff could give the solutions to (and often do give to the consultants) then having no money in the budget to implement the solutions. Bring back a couple of the old hands and see how they worked around the issues in the past, they must have had a solution back then, and see how it can be implemented today.

Sometimes, just sometimes the answer is simple, its the question that's hard.

Nasty I don't know you personally but I felt, remembering the effort you put in to getting them to address this issue, upon reading the article you must have been let down immensely, don't give up go back to them and say why have you not solved this yet? Keep pushing and maybe just maybe something other than talk will be done.

Nasty

17th June 2010, 19:33

I love the ambu's.
They are a god sent.
Just felt like saying that - to show that for every fuckup there are probably a million of us who feel the Ambus are doing a good job

Thing is that they are doing a great job .. but wouldn't it be better if they actually did an awesome job and were enabled to do it. :)

Mom

17th June 2010, 19:54

Thing is that they are doing a great job .. but wouldn't it be better if they actually did an awesome job and were enabled to do it. :)

I would never, ever complain about the ambulance service. I have had to use them twice recently and am so, so thankful they were there to take me to hospital. Infact I even wrote a thank you letter to the crews that picked me up, the sound of that siren, and knowing it was coming to help me is a sound I will never forget. I am certain my breath came easier as I heard the siren approach.

Enabled to do a fantastic job! Absolutely! That poor ambo driver should never have been put in a place where he was sent to a call out with no friggen idea where he was going, well hang on, that is not right, he should have gone immediately, but have been pointed accurately to the scene as he went. I still cant believe he did not understand rapid numbers. That is fundamental knowledge.

nadroj

18th June 2010, 13:14

The irony of this incident is that Bob & Annie are bikers (Rusty Nuts) some may have met when they had the Kaieto cafe open.

The criminal action is that of management, sending an ambo into a rural area without ensuring they had training on the Rapid or Fontera numbering systems.

avgas

18th June 2010, 14:18

I agree, but there's a difference between an "oops" and a really dangerous and preventable "oops" that causes ordinary people real consequences.
Not really - if there is your job is too easy.
In mine, a fuck-up is a fuck-up. Its just as easy to do, regardless of the consequences.
Best thing you can do is minimize the amount of times a particular fuck-up can happen, and minimize the fallout from the problem.
You can never negate the problem out.
To assume otherwise is foolish.

avgas

18th June 2010, 14:22

Thing is that they are doing a great job .. but wouldn't it be better if they actually did an awesome job and were enabled to do it. :)
Yes, so let the inquiry happen without noses being poked in.
There is a difference between an inquiry and a witch-hunt. An inquiry will find the problem and look for a solution, a witch-hunt merely pointed out "who's fault it was".
I would rather they come out and say "we integrated a new system that checks with the ambulance the gps co-ordinates every 10 minutes" that "It was this guys fault".

I will say it again. The ambu's do a bang up job, they are allowed to fuckup - they simply need to run an inquiry whenever they do.
This is what they are doing.
What are people problems here? Fix your own life no others.

Naki Rat

19th June 2010, 08:26

This article (http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/3830698/Ambulance-driver-blame-is-unfair) in the local newspaper sums up the ambo's situation - no GPS, no cellphone, no radio, and Wellington actual watched the ambulance's progress past its destination and were powerless to advise the driver :no:

An ambulance volunteer worker says his colleague has been unfairly hung out to dry by the Taranaki District Health Board.

The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said there were others in the organisation who should be taking some of the blame after Tahora woman Annie Fletcher waited five hours for an ambulance to arrive last Saturday.

The Taranaki District Health Board has blamed driver error for the incident, the second time emergency services have been unable to find a patient in the area in less than two years.

The DHB said it was investigating why the driver had not been able to locate the Fletchers' home with an onboard GPS system.

However, the man who contacted the Taranaki Daily News yesterday said while the driver had made a mistake, he was being treated unfairly.

Others within the service should be taking some of the blame and systemic problems also contributed, he said.

"The driver made a mistake but he couldn't have used GPS – he didn't have one."

"The GPS system is available only to ambulance communications in Wellington," the man said.

"It is for tracking the ambulances, not for plotting a course.

The system meant communications staff could only watch as the lost ambulance driver drove right past the patient's home and 60 kilometres further into the back country.

"There is no cellphone or radio coverage out there," the caller said.

"There was no way they could get hold of him.

"It was a big stumbling block sending a single-crew ambulance."

A second crew member could have helped read the map or kept an eye out for the address, he said.

Taranaki DHB hospital and specialist services general manager Joy Farley said the DHB were not placing all of the blame on the ambulance driver and were doing all they could to support him.

Communications staff had noticed the ambulance was drifting off course but had been unable to contact him by cellphone or radio.

"Under normal circumstances, GPS is not needed because we are able to contact the drivers," she said.

"If ambulance officers have their own GPS system, they are allowed to use it but it must have a verbal alert.

"We don't want our drivers looking at a screen while they are driving, sometimes at speed, and perhaps worried about a patient."

Ms Farley said the issue of ambulance crewing had been looked at in depth in recent years and Mrs Fletcher's case was not considered serious enough to warrant sending a double crew.

"She was classified as being priority three which is non-urgent and there was a first responder present," she said.
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"Her husband was also there and the decision to send a single crew is one I agree with."

p.dath

19th June 2010, 09:45

I thik it is bad that the mergency services failed to respond in an adequate time - but if it was me, I woiuld have put the wife on the back seat of the car and started driving to Hospital. Why wait for the ambulance?

p.dath

19th June 2010, 09:50

BoristheBiter

19th June 2010, 10:24

FJRider

19th June 2010, 10:35

Naki Rat, that story does not add up. If Ambulance staff in Wellington were able to watch the ambulance drive past the property then it meant the onboard GPS system was able to transmit the co-ordinates back to Wellington.

If it could transmit the co-ordinates, then there was a working comunication system. How do ambulances transmit the co-ordinates? The cell phone network (most common method I know of)?

It seems to me if there was a communications network available, and there obviously was, then this was entirely avoidable.

As I understand those tracking systems ... they are not using telephone based networks to transmit their location. These systems are often installed in commercial companys (couriers/delivery vehicles/trucks) to monitor vehicle movements progress to their destination... or "unauthorised diverting" from their route. They usually are installed with no input by the driver (turning it off) possible.

p.dath

19th June 2010, 14:28

As I understand those tracking systems ... they are not using telephone based networks to transmit their location. These systems are often installed in commercial companys (couriers/delivery vehicles/trucks) to monitor vehicle movements progress to their destination... or "unauthorised diverting" from their route. They usually are installed with no input by the driver (turning it off) possible.

You've missed the point. If they are transmitting their location, then they were in range of a communications network - otherwise they couldn't transmit their location. This was a preventable situation.

rustic101

19th June 2010, 15:15

This is not a good situation, however it needs to be put into perspective.

This was not a systemic failure but rather a Human Biological Interface Issue in that the Driver got it wrong.

A large amount of work has been undertake to correct the wrongs of the past and mitigate as much error as possible. It is nearly always impossible to achieve that.

Recently Fire, Ambulance and Police have signed off on a multi agency agreement to use an InterCARD system, driven by Police, to facilitate responses requiring multi agency support. This system has just been nominated for yet an other award after winning local and international awards. This system was designed and created after a number of high profile incidents some of which we know have deeply affected members of our KB community.

All of the Emergency Services do the best they possible can, use the tools at their disposal, but there will, unfortunately still be failings. No one starts their shift not giving a fats rats arse.

Some times its hard for us to push past our emotions and look at the great work that each service does everyday.

Pussy

19th June 2010, 15:51

As I understand those tracking systems ... they are not using telephone based networks to transmit their location. These systems are often installed in commercial companys (couriers/delivery vehicles/trucks) to monitor vehicle movements progress to their destination... or "unauthorised diverting" from their route. They usually are installed with no input by the driver (turning it off) possible.

Yep... same system as the flight following system that the company I used to fly for uses. Done by satellite tracking

FJRider

19th June 2010, 17:53

You've missed the point. If they are transmitting their location, then they were in range of a communications network - otherwise they couldn't transmit their location. This was a preventable situation.

NO ... YOU missed mine ...

Read the first line in post #38 ... The Ambo had a (satellite)tracking device. Not a (satellite)communication device fitted...

Naki Rat

19th June 2010, 20:25

Yep... same system as the flight following system that the company I used to fly for uses. Done by satellite tracking

I would therefore assume that HQ was monitoring the ambulance's location via satellite, and if the ambulance didn't even have a GPS navigation system there's no way he's going to have a satellite phone (which would have been the only way of contacting the ambulance).

Urano

19th June 2010, 20:27

no GPS, no cellphone, no radio,
"There is no cellphone or radio coverage out there," the caller said.

this is actually unbelievable and unforgivable.
ambulance is not a service you can do without a constant communication with base or the site you are aiming at.
if there are areas without radio or mobile coverage (and i could even understand there are) you MUST put a fuckin' antenna at the top of the highest mountain around, or at least equip the ambulances with a sat phone.
no way to do it differently.

"Her husband was also there and the decision to send a single crew is one I agree with."

second point.
there is NO WAY to do a decent ambu service with one person only on that thing.
it's a very old concept.

back in the last 70s initial 80s, the ambulances here were nothing more than a van with a bed and maybe an oxy bottle in it. the concept was: blast faster than you can to the sick person and take him to the hospital burning the tyres on the tarmac...
in that conditions you could even have the driver only on the ambu.
nowadays we've all understood that there's no way to take an infartuated person to a proper structure in time to save his life. you have to take the HOSPITAL to the site of the sick person. you have to go there, stabilize him and only AFTER take him to the hospital. there are several cases in which you stay on the site workin on the patient MORE than the time you'd need to take him to the hospital, but this is the right way.
you have to equip the ambu with resuscitator, immobilization devices, monitoring devices, a selection of first aid drugs (i've done a lot of narcan injection in the neck of overdosed person: they'd be surely dead if you'd have had to take them to the hospital...).
how can you drive all this stuff if the only person on the car is busy driving the ambu?
the minimum ambulance crew HAVE TO be three persons. one drives, two on the back with the injured person. TWO is not enough: you'd have difficulties to make a proper RCP all alone if conditions are just less than perfect, try to imagine to be alone, in the back of a van with someone that you have to keep on this world takin him by his hair, maybe losing blood, maybe vomiting and you don't know why, maybe his sick (aids or hepatitis) and you have to be aware to be safe for your self, all this flashing at 120 kmh to the hospital...
impossible to give a decent service.

one person crew is simply not acceptable.

EDIT:
i've found the web page of a volunteer association in mountains near modena.
http://www.avapmontecreto.org/Automezzi.htm
there are pictures of a modern ambu and an old one... ;)

Urano

19th June 2010, 20:30

I would therefore assume that HQ was monitoring the ambulance's location via satellite, and if the ambulance didn't even have a GPS navigation system there's no way he's going to have a satellite phone (which would have been the only way of contacting the ambulance).

the only place where i had problems with an inmarsat or an iridium phone was when we were volunteering in albany during the balkan war.
but the reason was that americans were jamming the signal cause of the bombing...

can't at all believe someone could have problems with a sat phone in NZ

Ixion

19th June 2010, 20:41

nadroj

19th June 2010, 21:41

Bob and Annie live on the top of the Tahora saddle, so radio reception would have been possible if he had found them. I am also sure they would have given the "Kaeito Cafe" as a location as it is well signposted. They would have been hoping for the chopper, as it is a slow windy road especially for anyone in pain, and there is a helicopter landing pad at their property (Tom Cruise has been there several times).
I stand by my previous statement: The criminal action is that of management, sending an ambo into a rural area without ensuring they had training on the Rapid or Fontera numbering systems.

Pussy

19th June 2010, 22:37

I would therefore assume that HQ was monitoring the ambulance's location via satellite, and if the ambulance didn't even have a GPS navigation system there's no way he's going to have a satellite phone (which would have been the only way of contacting the ambulance).
Nup... I had a satellite flight following system in the Fletcher. The unit itself transmits. Nothing at all to do with the communication system

BoristheBiter

20th June 2010, 09:40

I want to know why the husband diddn't just drive her to hospital?
It would have been quicker in the first place.
It was only a cat 3 call.
why was someone not at the gate to meet the ambo?
And this doesn't just happen it the sticks, it happens all over town as well.

I have all the time in the world for our emergancy service's but all you have to do is watch the shows on tv to see what resoruces they have at there disposal.
All you bagging the driver need to get off your soap box and direct it at the DHB. Have you never been lost? have you never had to try and find somewhere you had no knowledge of. do you know all the street names and where they go in your area.
Yep sat phones would be good and should be in all units but there not, why? because money is deemed to be better spent somewhere else.

We all went on a ride to wellywood to voice our disapproval on the rego going up but sit back and take it when our services are crap.
WHY?

FJRider

20th June 2010, 10:05

The criminal action is that of management, sending an ambo into a rural area without ensuring they had training on the Rapid or Fontera numbering systems.

The Rapid numbering system was introduced to stop this very thing happening ... wasn't it ... ???

Yet one branch of the emergency services is not training their staff to use it. I would have thought that would have been the very first part of driver training ... how to find your patient. They can't help them if they can't find them ...

Total reliance on cell phone/radio networks is evident ... which I hope the driver concerned has learned ... is not always possible.

BoristheBiter

20th June 2010, 10:41

The Rapid numbering system was introduced to stop this very thing happening ... wasn't it ... ???

Yet one branch of the emergency services is not training their staff to use it. I would have thought that would have been the very first part of driver training ... how to find your patient. They can't help them if they can't find them ...

Total reliance on cell phone/radio networks is evident ... which I hope the driver concerned has learned ... is not always possible.

How could you fault a metal plate nailed to a tree/post/gate.

FJRider

20th June 2010, 10:46

How could you fault a metal plate nailed to a tree/post/gate.

you can't ...

I thought the call centre's priorty question is ... what is your street/rapid number .. ??

Naki Rat

20th June 2010, 11:14

the only place where i had problems with an inmarsat or an iridium phone was when we were volunteering in albany during the balkan war.
but the reason was that americans were jamming the signal cause of the bombing...

can't at all believe someone could have problems with a sat phone in NZ
The problem I was alluding to was that the ambulance would not have a very expensive Satphone, seeing as how they didn't even have a GPS unit for their in vehicle navigation. Reception to satellites was obviously available given that HQ was able to monitor the vehicle's progress, but it was only being used to receive the vehicle's GPS sender unit.

Nup... I had a satellite flight following system in the Fletcher. The unit itself transmits. Nothing at all to do with the communication system
Your tracking system was 'communicating' data via satellite but you didn't have the ability to use this comm's link to send voice data (say for example if your radio died), which would have put you in the same situation as the ambulance, but in his case he also lacked a navigation system (other than a road map) :confused:

Naki Rat

20th June 2010, 11:27

I am very surprised that ambulances do not have GPS units. I'd sort of assumed it as a given. This is after all the 22nd century, we must all move with the times, and GPS are cheap as chips now.

Is that policy (no GPS) universal across the country?
This statement from the newspaper article would indicate that the ambulance service are still very much in the last century in regard to GPS technology:

"Under normal circumstances, GPS is not needed because we are able to contact the drivers," she said.

"If ambulance officers have their own GPS system, they are allowed to use it but it must have a verbal alert.

"We don't want our drivers looking at a screen while they are driving, sometimes at speed, and perhaps worried about a patient."

The only GPS units that don't have verbal alert capabilities now are of the 'cheap and nasty' variety and certainly don't have any place in an emergency vehicle.

Coincidentally it would be interesting to know from one of our police KB members what the prevalence of GPS navigation units is in Police vehicles ??

ynot slow

20th June 2010, 12:49

You've got that spot on. The driver was recently from Hawera (south Taranaki) and had no knowledge of the area, never having been there even in daylight. And he didn't have a clue what a rapid number is :no: He was literally driving blind.

Oh FFS,I lived in Hawera for over 40 yrs,still knew most of the Naki roads,certainly knew the main roads,ie.Wiremu,Eltham,South etc.
The RAPID numbers were a godsend to everyone from couriers/truckies to emergency services,when I had to deliver to rural areas,we'd ask what's the dairy company number,if not a cow cocky it was fun,usually got head passed xyz rd,turn left/right then look for blue roof/cream house and we're the 4th on left.The rapid system meant you knew the house was x km away form start of road,also left or right side,if a marker was missing(and easy to miss with vegetation or damage)you kept an eye on numbers close to destination,i.e if rapid no is 340 keep an eye on speedo reading,then around 2.7km you know it is within 1km.

To me first thing any emergency volunteer or professional requires is knowledge of district,and how rural number system works,not knowing the minor roads is not an issue,but knowing how to get there is a priority from main road.

I worked in Stratford for 4 years,there were many eastern naki roads I wasn't familiar with but a look at the map helped prior to doing delivery or installation,think my old boss would've been very pissed had I left for Tahora and ended up in Ohura.

Also maybe a sat phone for any areas in kiwiland where emergency services could be in black out situations for communications.

Think the ambos are great,but human error is always there,be it comms or driver.

When the rescue chopper was being investigated,Allan Beck would drop and go with his chopper,when we got a truly dedicated chopper almost everything from broken leg to stroke,from bruised ankle to heart attack meant chopper was despatched,just to prove funding the chopper was required,seems strange comms decided not to send chopper given back pain and a nice bumpy slow journey to hospital.

Toot Toot

20th June 2010, 13:58

Geez it's not like they are run ragged all day while waiting for a call is it? They should get on their bike and go figure out where shit is, instead of having another round of bikkies and tea.

You have NO idea how run ragged the service is do you? This is the singly most offensive post in this entire thread.

Dispatch/comms should have had a system that provides better awareness of the area with maps on display , they should have systems that would give them rough idea of the travel times and be asking the driver/crews part way through the journeys about locations.

Crews need to be confident they can ask comms for information and direction an get the right info.

Comms have a very comprehensive and amazingly accurate mapping system which is always up on one of the multiple screens at their disposal. This (mapping) was not the issue here.
Crews are more than confident to query direction/location.

Naki Rat, that story does not add up. If Ambulance staff in Wellington were able to watch the ambulance drive past the property then it meant the onboard GPS system was able to transmit the co-ordinates back to Wellington.

If it could transmit the co-ordinates, then there was a working comunication system. How do ambulances transmit the co-ordinates? The cell phone network (most common method I know of)?

It seems to me if there was a communications network available, and there obviously was, then this was entirely avoidable.

It is called AVL (Automatic Vehicle Location), a commonly used tool amongst all sorts of industries involving vehicles. It transmits its position via satillite back to the communications room, plotting itself onto the dispatchers mapping system. It has nothing to do with cell phone or radio network coverage.

I am very surprised that ambulances do not have GPS units. I'd sort of assumed it as a given. This is after all the 22nd century, we must all move with the times, and GPS are cheap as chips now.

Is that policy (no GPS) universal across the country?
GPS navigation systems such as Navman are permitted as a navigation aid, so long as it does not distract from the safe operation of the vehicle. They are SOMETIMES purchased for the vehicle by various organisations, or the officers may use there own personal one. It is not standard practice for the company to purchase these items as the budget is not big enough to allow it at this point.

At the end of the day....two errors in nearly two years????? Sounds like a pretty low error rate to me.

RiderInBlack

20th June 2010, 15:52

Here's an Idea. Instead of looking someone to blame, how about we get behind them and help by raising funds for a GPS unit for their Ambo. We could also help raise funds for them so they can fund the Ambo's better and Volunteer our help, so that they might be able to staff the Ambo's better.
Too many people spend too much time complaining about what is wrong and to little time trying to be part of the solution.
Bitch Less & Pitch In More is the best way to really get anything done.

p.dath

20th June 2010, 16:03

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=royalblue]Here's an Idea. Instead of looking someone to blame, how about we get behind them and help by raising funds for a GPS unit for their Ambo.

They said they wont allow them to have a GPS because it distracts the driver. It's not an issue about money, or getting behind them.

FJRider

20th June 2010, 16:09

Actually ... they don't allow GPS IF it distracts the driver ... one's with verbal alerts are allowed

RiderInBlack

20th June 2010, 16:26

They said they wont allow them to have a GPS because it distracts the driver. It's not an issue about money, or getting behind them.I would disagree with ya there. Lack of funding and resources is why they can't afford to have two or more crew per Ambo for most call-outs. Because they often only have single crews, there is no-one spare ta monitor a GPS (well at least not without taking their eyes off the road). So exactly how is this not an Issue about money or resources?

Ixion

20th June 2010, 18:31

GPS navigation systems such as Navman are permitted as a navigation aid, so long as it does not distract from the safe operation of the vehicle. They are SOMETIMES purchased for the vehicle by various organisations, or the officers may use there own personal one. It is not standard practice for the company to purchase these items as the budget is not big enough to allow it at this point.

At the end of the day....two errors in nearly two years????? Sounds like a pretty low error rate to me.

Saw some the other day for $158 (new). Doesn't seem that big a hit in the context, but , granted, organisations like St Johns are sometimes running very close to the line. In which case, it could maybe be a good thing for bikers to organise a run to buy some. If the ambo bosses would allow them to be fitted. Cos, OK, two incidents that hit the big news in two years. But, I'd assume there'd be LOTS of incidents where the ambo spends an extra 5 or 10 minutes trying to find the address they're after. Probably usually no big deal, but 5 minutes is all eternity if you're watching a loved one in extremis and waiting. Cutting some of the "WTF is that street" has got to be good, surely

Urano

20th June 2010, 19:53

The problem I was alluding to was that the ambulance would not have a very expensive Satphone, seeing as how they didn't even have a GPS unit for their in vehicle navigation.

so there are budget problems (as everywhere...) and this...

Here's an Idea. Instead of looking someone to blame, how about we get behind them and help by raising funds for a GPS unit for their Ambo. We could also help raise funds for them so they can fund the Ambo's better and Volunteer our help, so that they might be able to staff the Ambo's better.

...is a good idea.

just a curiosity: is the ambu service public in there or you have private associations or volunteer associations?

... is growing in me the idea that much of your general difficulties, not in this field only, are caused by the fact that you are "FEW"...

yungatart

21st June 2010, 07:49

so there are budget problems (as everywhere...) and this...

...is a good idea.

just a curiosity: is the ambu service public in there or you have private associations or volunteer associations?

... is growing in me the idea that much of your general difficulties, not in this field only, are caused by the fact that you are "FEW"...

AFAIK St Johns is a private organisation, partly funded by Govt. They provide ambo services to about 85% of NZ. Manned by permanent and volunteer staff.
Wellington, Taranaki and Wairarapa have their own seperate ambo service.

scracha

21st June 2010, 09:49

Oh What is a rapid number?

Similar to a house number in town but indicates the distance along the road. I think they run from the most North or West direction.

In all fairness to the emergency services, you'd be gobsmacked how many people around here don't know their own rapid number. They give you their bleedin dairy number or describe it as the "Green roofed house after such and such intersection" etc etc. Makes GPS bloody useless and you end up looking at local farm maps (has peeps surnames) or Tumonz to find them.

Not that this makes any excuse for the ambo incident.

GPS :- Can't see how a nice lady squalking, "in 600m take the next road right" distracts anybody. Quite the opposite in fact as you can concentrate on driving and not wondering if you're at the 4th left turn or the 5th.

Urano

21st June 2010, 20:14

AFAIK St Johns is a private organisation, partly funded by Govt. They provide ambo services to about 85% of NZ. Manned by permanent and volunteer staff.
Wellington, Taranaki and Wairarapa have their own seperate ambo service.

so you have practically one association only to give the service to the most of nz?... and they have those service levels?...

...it would be great to organize an association to give ambu service with higher standards if you believe your area is not properly covered.

riderinblack had a good idea, but remember that you can decide the use of the founds you should raise up...

i'd be happy to help too, if needed...

Urano

21st June 2010, 20:14

double. again.

The Moth

24th June 2010, 20:58

If you need to know why my husband could not just drive me to hospital then you are a dick head for asking .As i was paralized from the waist down and carste on my bed i couldn't go any where i needed help big time and for you to say it was more than a cat 3 call some other dickhead made that call who assumed it was nothing . I have a thyroid medical condition and high blood pressure so pull your head keep your opinion to yourself. and as for the ambo i feel for him it wasnt his fault and i for gave him even if it was under the influence of laughing gas. getting really piss off with all the bullshit and the hollow sorrrys.

Nasty

24th June 2010, 21:07

The Moth

24th June 2010, 21:24

Naki Rat

24th June 2010, 21:43

The hollow sorrys never stop ... they are pathetic .. there are some real political issues happening up in the naki around the ambo service at the moment .. and hopefully they will resolve that shit soon and get a group in who are happy to provide service that should be there.

The Taranaki District Health Board's shortcomings extent way beyond their ambulance service too. I can list numerous people who have had follow-up specialists' appointments run months overdue, and then it is often rectified by the patient following up rather than the hospital. That's bloody third world service and absolutely inexcuseable when it includes cancer treatments!

As I said to you Kari during our chat, the TDHB manager (Joy Farley) that I grilled a few days ago over the latest ambulance fiasco, couldn't or wouldn't realise that their ambulance system is fatally flawed due to equipment that is reliant on cellular or radio coverage, both of which don't exist in much of Taranaki's more 'challenging' country. In short she didn't want to know :mad:

The Moth

25th June 2010, 12:45

naki rat do i know you ?did you every come to our cafe when we where operating i would be interested to know what Ms Joy Farley has to say!!!! on the matter she sounds like a arogant bitch if you ask me.

The Moth

25th June 2010, 15:32

well there was nothing about god sending him to me

The Moth

25th June 2010, 15:38

p.dath

25th June 2010, 15:54

even when he got here he could not even get them on his mobile phone he had to use our land line ,fGs do people not relize how remote we are out here i think they should all get on there bikes or cars and just find out for themselves and if they are doing atrip just be very aware of the situation tell there mates.

I know you'll beat me up for this, but playing Devil's Advocate; knowing that you are so remote, and knowing that situations will arise, is there not something you guys can do to help yourselves? You know, personal responsibility? You already know the ambulance service is likely to let you down. Why wait for it to happen?

Perhaps the local community could fund raise for a local cell phone tower if you want more comms? Perhaps the local community could get involved in the CB radio movement to help each other?

How about getting something as simple as an PLB/ELT so you can be located via satellite?

Could the local community not go and visit the local emergency services from time to time to make sure they know how to locate rural people?

Could you not make an arrangement with the last neighbour that you have in cell phone range? Send emergency services there and have them help find the final address?

Does it always have to be someone elses problem and responsibility?

... flame suit on ...

The Moth

25th June 2010, 20:58

Naki Rat

25th June 2010, 21:18

I know you'll beat me up for this, but playing Devil's Advocate; knowing that you are so remote, and knowing that situations will arise, is there not something you guys can do to help yourselves? You know, personal responsibility? You already know the ambulance service is likely to let you down. Why wait for it to happen? These people actually had a helipad on their property. How more prepared can you be!

Perhaps the local community could fund raise for a local cell phone tower if you want more comms? Perhaps the local community could get involved in the CB radio movement to help each other? You obviously haven't got a clue about the area.

How about getting something as simple as an PLB/ELT so you can be located via satellite? Just how is this going to help if the ambulance driver is lost to start with?

Could the local community not go and visit the local emergency services from time to time to make sure they know how to locate rural people? Could the emergency services not upskill and equip their drivers so they are able to find rural addresses?

Could you not make an arrangement with the last neighbour that you have in cell phone range? Send emergency services there and have them help find the final address? Considering that the nearest cellphone coverage is probably 50km away that probably is not a viable option :rolleyes:

Does it always have to be someone elses problem and responsibility? Because we pay taxes and ACC

... flame suit on ...

The root cause of the problem is political within Taranaki Area Health Board but the effects are risking lives in the Naki :mad:

ynot slow

25th June 2010, 21:35

The root cause of the problem is political within Taranaki Area Health Board but the effects are risking lives in the Naki :mad:

Yep one A.Beck chopper pilot extroadenaire(sp)offered his services years ago,but the idiot who organised the rescue chopper 10yrs ago or so decided we(area)needed a dedicated chopper,ffs Beck would drop anything and respond asap in an emergency,also more than once defied authorities to airlift climbers off Mt Egmont in dodgy weather.

Re CB radios etc,guys look outside your damn windows,the backblocks of Taranaki(eastern)have no cell coverage,only landline,also parts of highway around Mokau to Te Kuiti is cell coverage deprived,so those who think the emergency services are fine and dandy,hope you never require help around the outer fringes of coverage.

Similar around Gisborne way,and more than likely heaps of kiwi regions have limited cell coverage.

RiderInBlack

26th June 2010, 08:21

Similar around Gisborne way,and more than likely heaps of kiwi regions have limited cell coverage.Aye, quite a few choice roads up here in the Norf are Cell-less. When Cracker come down South of the Kauri Forest, I didn't get cover until I hit Dargaville. Cracker was lucky ta come down outside a Farmer's Home, and that the Farmer was near his house. He didn't need a Ambo (thankfully). When TIE come off on Russell Road the Local Ambo, Local Police, Local Firemen and the Heli-Ambo found us easily because we give them the Rapid Location Number, and they were very familiar with the area they were covering. TIE was badly concussed and got taken straight to the Hospital.
Not heard of having the same delays with Ambo up here, yet we would have similar problems with finding a place. That can only mean that our Ambo staff are ether better equipped or trained. This of course means that someone in Management must also have made better decisions.

ynot slow

26th June 2010, 09:32

Agree RIB maybe a bit of common sense prevailed up your way,so the calls go to a call centre type comms,but once relayed hopefully the ambos have reasanable knowledge of the area to go to.Local knowledge is a boon in emergency.

AD345

26th June 2010, 13:46

Some pretty grim reading but it doesn't seem like there are insurmountable problems given the will and some resource.

A big part of what I do is Root Cause Analysis and problem solving, albeit in manufacturing but the principles are the same. From the evidence thus far is seems pretty straightforward which systems have failed.

1. Training. The most common systems failure and not suprising to find here. The driver was not sufficently trained in that he did not know the RAPID system, nor was this identified as a gap.

2. Communications. Poor or no coverage areas do not appear overnight, they are known in advance and the system is not designed to cope with them. The service has already admitted that they send a crew out with no communications as a matter of course. This is a huge gap and combined with the previous lack of training it is a certain recipe for disaster. Communications have to be provided for. At a very least there needs to be a satellite phone at each base (or at least each base with a no-coverage area within its area of responsibility). If fundraising is needed than this is where the funds shoiuld go

3. Labour. The service has admitted that they have blanket labour resourcing for all areas. This means that there has been no differentiation between a code 3 in an urban area where back-up is more easily available if needed and a code 3 in a rural area where there is no or limited back up. God help ya if the caller got the information wrong or the driver trips up to the steps into the house and sprains their ankle - you're fucked at that point.

It was the combination of failures in all 3 of those systems that lead directly to the problems in this case. If any one of them had functioned correctly (or been in place as the case may be) there would have been no issue

If all THREE systems were operating at that level you would have something very close to a Poke-yoke system (japanese for idiot-proof but meaning that failure is designed OUT of the system)

The processes for this type of analysis and investigation are more than 70 years old and in common use all across the world

Here is hoping they get used

BoristheBiter

26th June 2010, 14:51

well you live in the north shore lucky you .you have no idea what you are talking about pull your head in because you are just talking a lot of shit . what part do you not understand NO MOBILE PHONE COVER . We are the point of reference for ambo and helicopter pickup
in times of emergencys they Know where to COME. Would you ring 111 if you needed them? would you expect them to arrive in the time given?Im sure i would not ring 111 if i didn't need them.

Now that you have had your litttle go at pDath.
You live in the sticks your choice deal with it.
As for calling ambos out if you are in a remote area, i had to drive my other half 45min to Whangarei after she had come off her dirt bike. she had broken ribs, collapsed lung and a ruptured liver.
I knew i would be waiting a while for them so i drove her there myself. No bitch about ambos, dhb's or the first aiders on scene. I knew i would get there quicker then they could get to me.

You still have not said why someone was not waiting at the gate, which i would have thought was standard pratcice, it was when i trained.

And to Naki rat "Does it always have to be someone elses problem and responsibility? Because we pay taxes and ACC"
If you want to sit back and let everyone doe things for you then expect shit to happen. the Naki isn't specail when it comes to shitty DHB's, just ask anyone thats been to any hospital lately and they could give you some horror stories.

ynot slow

26th June 2010, 17:07

Boris the comment about waiting at gate is fine in theory,but remember these folks are approx 70km from Stratford,thus combined with lack of cell coverage(for the ambo to tell comms his location)the guys at comms would have no idea when the ambo would be in the area.And it(the road)isn't like saying 70km might take 45mins,more like 1-11/2 hours,and waiting for an hour to decide to head outside in a freezing East Naki countryside aint that flash,I have spent a bit of time camping in the area mid winter,so know how chilly it gets under a bivvy,let alone roadside.

BoristheBiter

26th June 2010, 18:52

ynot slow

26th June 2010, 20:18

No only single crew ambo,combine that with going over duty hours for him made a driver change needed as well.You would think if the ambo was stopped by the cops they'd understand the driving hours oversite,but not the St Johns (especially if the ambulance crashed)so he was forced to do driver change.I don't want to berate the service,just the way they go/went about the call out that night,which highlights the areas in this ountry which have no cell phone coverage,that is the crux of the matter,the driver was lost(didn't understand rapid system is a fail,no way to contact the driver is a fail)and having travelled in an ambulance from Hawera to New Plymouth on a major highway the ride wasn't to comfy,and my reason was illness not accident and was able to sit up.Can only imagine the road trip from Tahora to Stratford would be the longest 1hour or so.

Paul in NZ

27th June 2010, 10:12

This is very sad but if you have some knowledge of the way emergency services are organised in NZ it is hardly surprising.

Communications is always going to be an issue here - face it, cell technology cannot and has not ever been 100% reliable due to the population density, topography and cost. GPS has limitations to but cheap systems have more limits. A couple of years back I demo'd a hybrid Radio / GPS / Cell / Satellite system but its just too expensive.

Communication and sharing of information resources between the Police, Fire and Ambulance services can be tricky as they have trouble agreeing on a standard system. I'm guessing this is partly to do with how the various organisations are funded and set up and also from a distrust between the management of the various organisations. IMHO the Police should run the systems and call centre and the gear funded into the ambos free by the govt.

I believe the AA was involved at one stage collecting rural addresses etc and I wonder where that info ended up??

The Moth

27th June 2010, 15:24

I think you have a bit of verbal diarrhoea so take a bit of meds for it.

tri boy

27th June 2010, 15:36

Amateur short wave/long band radio use springs to mind to me.
Can be easily linked to central comms/different frequency pick ups etc.
Works all around the planet. Hell, Kiwi operators have relayed emergency messages from Istanbul on to International Red Cross.
The back blocks of the Naki must reeeeealllll special.
Flame away Moth. heheh, flame/moth, get it, get it.

Paul in NZ

5th July 2010, 20:05

I think you have a bit of verbal diarrhoea so take a bit of meds for it.

Well - if you are referring to moi.... Yeah - I'd know fuck all - I just built most of the gateway systems that the emergency system uses to transit the land based networks (from the last manual boards onwards), the original answering points (including development) and toll rooms, the recent transition to newer units and have assisted with development of multi service in vehicle sytems in australia and the usa.

I have actual knowlwdge of systems used and developed by our company in Japan and systems developed in the USA to

Oh sorry - yeah, this is KB, I'm talking rubbish

Pixie

6th July 2010, 09:53

BoristheBiter

7th July 2010, 07:32

Yeah! and ignore the occasional fuck up so it never gets fixed.

It's the kiwi way

NO its ignore the reason for the fuck up and hang some poor fucker out to dry, and sit on a forum crying like baby's at how bad it all is.

Thats the Kiwi way.

Naki Rat

9th July 2010, 09:01

Part of the reason (http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/3900260/TDHB-to-subcontract-ambulance) for underresourcing of Taranaki District Health Board ambulances has now become clearer. Hopefully a contracted service will provide better performance.

Meanwhile the donation of GPS units (http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/3900297/Painful-ordeal-leads-to-GPS-donation) by community groups has been accepted by the TDHB but the organisation still maintain the denial of the ambulance system shortfall by failing to back the GPS units up with driver training in their use it would seem :angry:

Paul in NZ

9th July 2010, 14:08

This makes a lot of sense and partly supports my earlier post..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/3902511/Telecom-calls-for-Govt-oversight-of-111-calls

avgas

9th July 2010, 14:19

Nasty

9th July 2010, 14:57

I was going to read this thread. And thought fuck it. I have had a good run with Ambo's - and imagine I will have a good run with future service by the ambo's.

Aren't the rest of you moaners late for you interviews on Cambell live or Target?

1. I have had good service from the ambo - when I am in Wellington and they can find me easy enough.
2. Get over yourself - and may you not suffer due to the systemic failures that are still happening.
3. With that attitude I think that you have been more lucky than anything else.

avgas

9th July 2010, 15:40

1. I have had good service from the ambo - when I am in Wellington and they can find me easy enough.
2. Get over yourself - and may you not suffer due to the systemic failures that are still happening.
3. With that attitude I think that you have been more lucky than anything else.
Your 1 contradicts 3.

vifferman

9th July 2010, 16:45

Now lets put all the good storys about ambos getting there on time and saving a life.
Well, I dunno whether my life needed saving, but they were blardy good when my wife phoned them when my heart was being spastic (lots of atrial fibrillation). The ambulance arrived within a few minutes, and while they were on their way, the person in the telephone kept my wife calm, got her to check my pulse, tell her what meds I was on, and give me some aspirin. When the ambulance turned up, the paramedics were efficient, reassuring, friendly and very professional. :niceone:

Mom

9th July 2010, 16:51

When the ambulance turned up, the paramedics were efficient, reassuring, friendly and very professional. :niceone:

I have had 2 ambo trips in the very recent past, my first one complete with a rendevous with a rapid response paramedic at Oteha Valley Road, I too can vouch for the care and reassurance. Infact the reassurance was the best bit, I thought I was going to die :pinch:

That is all good though, we live urban, easy to find locations.

kina

19th September 2010, 16:24

i ride, i choose to ride, i choose not to live in the hospital grounds in case of emergency, traffic crashes happen, Illness and home accidents happen, everyone tries their best to help.
everything you do comes with an amount of risk, if you ride and fall off you may be injured or worse, that is not the fault of anyone else, you choose to ride..... If you live in a remote location, then there are certain risks attatched to that as well, weigh up the risk, if you ride /Live around the hospital then help is close at hand, if you ride /live in the back blocks then help is further away.

I would advise all to check their house number, urban or rural, people give little attention to this, and it can be challenging at times to say the least, to find an address, in the dark or poor visibility. Even in the middle of a town with local knowledge.

Just have a look around your neighbourhood at the poorly numbered properties, and you will see what I mean.
Be carefull, but enjoy

kina

19th September 2010, 16:32

\think if the ambo was stopped by the cops they'd understand the driving hours oversite,but not the St Johns (especially if the ambulance crashed)so he was forced to do driver change.I don't want to berate the service,just the way they go/went about the call .

This service was not St John, bro:mobile:

Nasty

19th September 2010, 17:26

This service was not St John, bro:mobile:

Thats right it was a taranaki DHB ambulance from my understanding. there was also a lot of political crap up there at the time, with the DHB wanting to get out of the direct provision of these services.

MSTRS

20th September 2010, 08:39

This service was not St John, bro:mobile:

Your point is...?
All services are subject to the same rules around driver hours. Nor does a driver have to have been driving. Just being on duty counts towards total hours allowed.

Pixie

20th September 2010, 09:33

NO its ignore the reason for the fuck up and hang some poor fucker out to dry, and sit on a forum crying like baby's at how bad it all is.

Thats the Kiwi way.

No,Trim some of the fat you find in any modern NZ organisation and use the money to better resource the front line.

For example around thirty years ago any hospital in NZ was run by the head nurse and head doctor.

Now there are 4 managers for every 10 working employees (nurses doctors scientists technicians)

BoristheBiter

20th September 2010, 09:38

No,Trim some of the fat you find in any modern NZ organisation and use the money to better resource the front line.

For example around thirty years ago any hospital in NZ was run by the head nurse and head doctor.

Now there are 4 managers for every 10 working employees (nurses doctors scientists technicians)

I thought this thread had died.

But thats what i meant. the guys on the front line always get the short end of the stick, no backup no funding as it all goes to the layers of managers above sitting in there little office.

Bounce001

20th September 2010, 13:15

I thought this thread had died.

But thats what i meant. the guys on the front line always get the short end of the stick, no backup no funding as it all goes to the layers of managers above sitting in there little office.

Yep

Everyday a small ant arrives at work very early and starts work immediately.
She produces a lot and was very happy.
The chief, a lion, was surprised to see that the ant was working without supervision.
He thought that if the ant can produce so much without supervision, wouldn’t she produce even more if she had a supervisor!
So he recruited a cockroach who had extensive experience as a supervisor and who was famous for writing excellent reports.
The cockroach’s first decision was to set up a clocking in attendance system.
He also needed a secretary to help him write and type his reports and…
He recruited a spider who managed the archives and monitored all phone calls.
The lion was delighted with the cockroach’s reports and asked him to produce graphs to describe production rates and to analyse trends, so that he could use them for presentations at board meetings.
So the cockroach had to buy a new computer and a laser printer and …
Recruited a fly to manage the IT department.
The ant who had once been so productive and relaxed, hated this new plethora of paperwork and meetings which used up most of her time.
The lion came to the conclusion that it was high time to nominate a person in charge of the department where the ant worked.
The position was given to the cicada, whose first decision was to buy a carpet and an ergonomic chair for his office.
The new person in charge, the cicada, also needed a computer and a personal assistant, ho he brought form his previous department, to help him prepare a Work and Budget Control Strategic Optimisation Plan…
The department where the ant works is now a sad place, where nobody laughs anymore and everybody has become upset.
It was at that time the cicada convinced the lion, of the absolute necessity to start a climatic study of the environment.
Having reviewed the charges for running the ants department, the lion found that there was much less production than before.
So he recruited the owl, a prestigious and renowned consultant to carry out an audit and suggest solutions.
The owl spent three months in the department and came up with an enormous report, in several volumes, that concluded: ‘The department is overstaffed’.
Guess who the lion fires first?
The ant of course, because she showed lack of motivation and had a negative attitude.

The characters in this are fictional. Any resemblance to real people or facts within the corporation are purely coincidence…

BoristheBiter

20th September 2010, 15:03

Yep

Everyday a small ant arrives at work very early and starts work immediately.
She produces a lot and was very happy.
The chief, a lion, was surprised to see that the ant was working without supervision.
He thought that if the ant can produce so much without supervision, wouldn’t she produce even more if she had a supervisor!
So he recruited a cockroach who had extensive experience as a supervisor and who was famous for writing excellent reports.
The cockroach’s first decision was to set up a clocking in attendance system.
He also needed a secretary to help him write and type his reports and…
He recruited a spider who managed the archives and monitored all phone calls.
The lion was delighted with the cockroach’s reports and asked him to produce graphs to describe production rates and to analyse trends, so that he could use them for presentations at board meetings.
So the cockroach had to buy a new computer and a laser printer and …
Recruited a fly to manage the IT department.
The ant who had once been so productive and relaxed, hated this new plethora of paperwork and meetings which used up most of her time.
The lion came to the conclusion that it was high time to nominate a person in charge of the department where the ant worked.
The position was given to the cicada, whose first decision was to buy a carpet and an ergonomic chair for his office.
The new person in charge, the cicada, also needed a computer and a personal assistant, ho he brought form his previous department, to help him prepare a Work and Budget Control Strategic Optimisation Plan…
The department where the ant works is now a sad place, where nobody laughs anymore and everybody has become upset.
It was at that time the cicada convinced the lion, of the absolute necessity to start a climatic study of the environment.
Having reviewed the charges for running the ants department, the lion found that there was much less production than before.
So he recruited the owl, a prestigious and renowned consultant to carry out an audit and suggest solutions.
The owl spent three months in the department and came up with an enormous report, in several volumes, that concluded: ‘The department is overstaffed’.
Guess who the lion fires first?
The ant of course, because she showed lack of motivation and had a negative attitude.

The characters in this are fictional. Any resemblance to real people or facts within the corporation are purely coincidence…

What is the saying,

Many a true word spoken in jest.