Organising an Endurance event - fuck off if you're going throw stones...

[madbikeboy]

Okay, this is a bit of a project that's been gestating for a while.

In my youth (when the world was in black in white and coke was drunk, not snorted), I used to like endurance racing. You know, old bikes being ridden around the racetrack late into the wee smalls.

I've been working with the good folks at a race circuit; it's a good 'un, to put on a long endurance event. Classes would be split (to make it interesting) between 80/90's bikes, displacement (running in the normal splits and classes).

Racing would start in the afternoon, and either race to dusk, or to dawn - yes, that's right, a component of this would be in the dark.

The question is - would anyone be keen to do this. Realistically it needs around 60 entrants to make if financially viable. There is camping and proper accomodation on site (as well as Ambo's etc).

Any thoughts or advice, let me know. if you're going to be an asshole, do it somewhere else.

Cheers, MBB

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think it's a splendid idea...and I hope it all comes together for you!

[madbikeboy]

I think it's a splendid idea...and I hope it all comes together for you!

I think the interesting thing here is determining what would be quickest over the duration - full on race bikes versus almost stock production bikes, versus sports tourers that are easier to ride and easier on tires...

Bikes would require lights of course - but it's also the logistics of running a 4 person team over that duration and managing fuel consumption and tire wear.

It would also give the manufacturers a chance to run basically stock bikes...

[LBD]

Mate....If it ever coincided with a trip home (March or Oct ish)....or when I live closer....definately count me in...

[jeremysprite]

Although I have never ridden on a race track, have no bike, and have no money to fund a race team... Count me in!
Oh and it would have to be staged in Queenstown, is that possible?

Seriously though I would pay my $ to come watch at the very least.

[shrub]

I'll be there. Not as a competitor, but as a spectator. Mate, that is a legendary idea

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think the interesting thing here is determining what would be quickest over the duration - full on race bikes versus almost stock production bikes, versus sports tourers that are easier to ride and easier on tires...

Bikes would require lights of course - but it's also the logistics of running a 4 person team over that duration and managing fuel consumption and tire wear.

It would also give the manufacturers a chance to run basically stock bikes...

Sport tourers have no chance. Race bikes with large fuel tanks and lights will own the race. I'll watch your progress with interest!

[Gremlin]

AMCC did 1 a season or two ago, but only a few hours. Ended up having a lot bins when it started raining (riders did comment they were tired etc), didn't get enough entries etc. So how long do marshals have to stay up? :D

[madbikeboy]

3-4 riders per team - looking at approx 5 hour event - 2 hours in the light, then twighlight/sunset (which is the only dilemma), and then approx 2 hours in the dark. Camping on the in-field - and big bbq etc afterwards.

It's intended as a family event, to promote the racetrack, motorcycling generally, and for fun.

The Marshalls will need to stay up past their normal bedtime...

[Kiwi Graham]

I'm a fan of endurance racing, count me in if it gets of the ground. Don't have a 80-90's bike though.

[madbikeboy]

I'm a fan of endurance racing, count me in if it gets of the ground. Don't have a 80-90's bike though.

Run what you brung. Classes would include 80/90's, plus normal classes. Ideally a big field of different bikes - a litre racebike may not be the fastest on the day when you take tires and fuel consumption into account...

[breakaway]

If you ever get this organised give me a pm, sounds interesting!

[Madmax]

what about one off bikes, made for it (old engines moden frames ETC)

[schrodingers cat]

Endurance events always appeal for a variety of reasons - total cost per k is cheaper due to one only lot of travel accomodation.
Some questions - how did you arrive at est 60 entrants?
Would anyone like to speculate at a budget to run a bike - tyres, fuel brake pads, running gear (chain/sprox etc) lubricants etc - Please try for total real cost, not how cheaply you think you can do it because that is misleading and not helpful.

Possibly, with 4 riders, a higher entry fee could be charged as each rider would be sharing costs. The success or failure of the event for the bulk of riders would be based on the money they have to spend

Another trick is to have a major race distance of say 5 hours but allow folks to enter a two hour race also. All start together and at two hours, a minor winner is announced (can't win the 2 hr and the 5 hr) This encourages folks to 'put their toe in the water.

Also, and this is a more contentious one - allow folks to re-enter the race for the final hour if they have a drama and can get themselve re-sorted.

So long as the focus is on fun and bang for buck you'll be onto a winner. There will always be folks who will front up and aim to crush all before them. DON't structure the race for them - focus on the base of the pyramid.

Organise a band, BBQ, piss-up and bouncy castle when it is finished and take deposits for the next event which everyone will be asking you about

[FROSTY]

I think itll depend on the track and the lighting on it. a couple of tracks are pretty deadly for sunstrike at/around dusk.
Unless there was a compulsary stop for 30 minutes maybee --just on that dusk mark. --I can imagine my bike with a massive lighting rig ready to go on for the two hour night session.

[dave o]

im down like a clown charlie brown

[Katman]

My concern about an all-comers free-for-all would be the massive top speed differentials you'd find between bikes.

[TOTO]

Keen


________________

[R6_kid]

I'd be keen for sure.

[Gremlin]

yeah, katman does have a point there. Having bikes (circuit dependent, basically the straights) with big speed differentials definitely increases the risk, as we've sadly seen it before.

[Katman]

yeah, katman does have a point there. Having bikes (circuit dependent, basically the straights) with big speed differentials definitely increases the risk, as we've sadly seen it before.

And combine that with a big skill differential............

[schrodingers cat]

And combine that with a big skill differential............

Careful - you nearly threw a pebble there.

Its a fact of life. I just don't think anyone would be interested in reducing the risk and playing 5 hours of PS3 MotoGP (just like the real thing)

[vtec]

Awesome idea, there's an endurance race that the BADD people do at the end of the year usually. I'm a gun for hire if someone wants a good team mate. Only doing summer racing these days for money reasons.

[dave o]

could have smaller/slower bikes in an enduro during the day (say 1pm to 6pm or something?) then the bigger/faster bikes from 7 to 12 or whatever you wanted.

[cowpoos]

Realistically it needs around 60 entrants to make if financially viable.

Great Idea...

I'm not sure you will be allowed 60 bikes on a tack at the same time. possibly 35.

[Gubb]

Great Idea...

I'm not sure you will be allowed 60 bikes on a tack at the same time. possibly 35.

60 Entrants with teams of 3 to 4 is only 20ish bikes on the Track. (I assume this is what MBB is thinking.)

I'd certainly be interested in putting together a team on a bodged 80's 400.

[scracha]

60 Entrants with teams of 3 to 4 is only 20ish bikes on the Track. (I assume this is what MBB is thinking.)

I'd certainly be interested in putting together a team on a bodged 80's 400.

I'm keen, but can we make it that entrants must have 3 recent entries in their log books?

And 5 hours....c'mon. 24 hours. I want bonfires, strippers and fireworks.

[Foxzee]

Would this be run as a MNZ permitted event?

[madbikeboy]

So, here are some more details –

The event needs to be run in accordance with "reasonably" normal rules, so I’m putting a proposal to the motorcycle club that I belong to in order for them to run the event. The race committee meets next week to hear my proposal, so we’ll find out pretty soon if it’s doable.

Okay, 60 bikes – no, I’m meaning 60 bikes on the track – I’m working with the racetrack to determine the maximum number of people allowed on the track at any given time. More news to follow on this – however, the intention is for a large scale event for a number of reasons – the first is that with more people involved, the event will become more affordable – the afterparty will be better as well. The second reason is for obvious critical mass for sponsorship etc. The third reason is that a large event will be more inclusive and interesting for wider families. There is the possibility of having other events on the property at the time, for example Paintball, a 4wd course, archery, clay pigeon shooting. Think carnival atmosphere. There is accommodation onsite. I’m trying to see if we can organise a band of some sort, and a comedian isn’t out of the question either. The underlying intention here is to have fun, to include our wider support groups in the fun (and make it a good experience for everyone).

Budget for running an endurance bike. Ignoring the cost of actually acquiring the bike – I’d budget for my own bike (GSXR600) a couple sets of tires, and fuel (lots of it). I wonder if we can get a tire deal, anyone know any friendly people over at Pirelli or Metzler? It’s an endurance event, some people will treat it like a series of sprint races, others (my team included) will be viewing it as a hare and tortuous event (meaning consistent and conserving the bike).

V-Tec – you’re already pencilled in for my team, along with ZXRider (sorry Lance).

The sunset issue is still a problem – sunstrike may call for a 30 / 45 minute break in the middle of the event (Frosty, minds thinking alike). Logistically, this is a pain in the ass – and the main issue will be ensuring the staggered start accurately reflects the times of the staggered finish.

From my proposal, there will be awards (meaning $5 trophies) for the top 3 teams in each class, a peoples award for the best bike, an award from me for sportsmanship of the day award, and also an award for the Lantern Rouge – the slowest finishing team.

As for bikes – again, the classes are going to be very loose, this is intentional to make it interesting. I want to see creativity and interesting solutions for the bikes run. It will be mindlessly boring if we end up with a field of GSXR's. There will be some who will be as serious as cancer about running – hence us offering no prize purse, only glory. Sportsmanship and enjoying the event should be the key motivation. Since it's my baby, the trophies will be "interesting...".

Finally, the most logical suggestion about skill levels and bikes is to provide a 150% ruling – that is, to qualify for the event, you can be no more than 150% of the fastest bike’s time. Clearly, that is still a massive speed differential, so common sense will need to prevail. All people running will need to have attended a track day at the course, and a day licence type system is envisioned. This is possibly the most complex part of the proposal, so any suggestions on how to make this work will be appreciated.

This prosposal has immense goodwill from everyone involved thus far – the people at the track have been incredible flexible and supportive, and with momentum and support this will happen.

[javawocky]

At the very least would go along to watch.

No stones just a possible suggestion to deal with speed differentials. Perhaps having a fast lane / slow lane down the straights? "You fast boys on GSXRs stick to the right hand side, and you slow pokes on Hondas :Pokey: down the left."

[lostinflyz]

hehe sounds fun.

Bikes would be a trouble though as all race bikes have no lights, pretty much. Plus closing distances with speed differential would be almost impossible to judge at night if you had much difference.

In some euro endurance car races they have a group qaulification rules. Basically all pilots have to set a qaulifying time and the best combination is your qaulification time, but also no driver can be outside something like 20-25% of the fastest time, and less than 10-15% off class leading times.

Anyway would be a mint day/weekend. if i could find a bike id be in

[sidecar bob]

Id be a starter.
I would do it on an aincent BMW R100rs if it would fit the classes avaliable.

[Biggles08]

Finally, the most logical suggestion about skill levels and bikes is to provide a 150% ruling – that is, to qualify for the event, you can be no more than 150% of the fastest bike’s time. Clearly, that is still a massive speed differential, so common sense will need to prevail. All people running will need to have attended a track day at the course, and a day licence type system is envisioned. This is possibly the most complex part of the proposal, so any suggestions on how to make this work will be appreciated.

Hey Madbikeboy, I like your enthusiasm and your general idea but realistically if it were to run as you are proposing it is a big accident waiting to happen (and I doubt MNZ would have a bar of it).

A few ideas to make it safer:
1) don't run it into the night or low light as doing big speeds at night with only headlights and massive speed variances between bikes is super dangerous. If there was a track with flood lighting then it may be viable but imagine if there was an accident way out the back of the track and the bikes headlight was take out...no one could see them, no one could see the flags (i guess different colored lights could be used instead) and if the rider was injured ow could you tell?
2) reduce the margin of speed difference to within 115% of the fastest qualifier (as it is with normal racing) to minimize a fatal collision...it happens in the day time so I for one would not like to be on a racetrack where the speed difference is 150%...and at night!
3) even though you intention is for a 'carnival' feel you need to realize it still is a race and people will want to win no matter how much you tell them to be careful...racing is a dangerous sport and I think there needs to be a minimum requirement for contestants to have a MNZ race license with three recent stamps in their logbooks to ensure other riders safety is not compromised.

Like I said, its a great idea and if it was put together with safety as your prime concern, I would be interested to enter.

Biggles

[schrodingers cat]

Supply each bike (or make them buy) with 2 LED bicycle lights to fit fnt and rear. Have different flashing patterns per class. That way at night you know how fast/slow the other bike you're looking at is.

Some solid thinking so far - good luck!

[scracha]

1) don't run it into the night or low light as doing big speeds at night with only headlights and massive speed variances between bikes is super dangerous. If there was a track with flood lighting then it may be viable but imagine if there was an accident way out the back of the track and the bikes headlight was take out...no one could see them, no one could see the flags (i guess different colored lights could be used instead) and if the rider was injured ow could you tell?

Sorry Biggles, but if it's gonna be done, it should be done properly. You wanna attract top riders? 24 hours I say. We race in $hit light at the VMCC so what's the difference. Your eyes do adapt. Perhaps 2 x 20 minute rider change/tyre/safety check when the sunstrike is at its worst?
http://www.race24.com/



2) reduce the margin of speed difference to within 115% of the fastest qualifier (as it is with normal racing) to minimize a fatal collision...it happens in the day time so I for one would not like to be on a racetrack where the speed difference is 150%...and at night!

115% of guys like Stroudy, Chopper and Shirrifs will mean there'll be a handful of bikes out there.

> 600cc limit and 3 recent stamps on the MNZ license would be sensible.
[/QUOTE]

Additional LED lights (working "normal" front and rear lights would be obligitory) are a great idea. Might suggest simply a different colour LED instead of flashing as it'll be too distracting otherwise. Reflective stickers on helmets and boots compulsory. Aside from reflective vests, how about night sticks for flaggies?

A pace car would also be essential.

[sidecar bob]

Supply each bike (or make them buy) with 2 LED bicycle lights to fit fnt and rear. Have different flashing patterns per class. That way at night you know how fast/slow the other bike you're looking at is.

Some solid thinking so far - good luck!
Great idea, maybe different colours for different classes & reflector tape on front, rear, left right & top & bottom of bike.

[steveyb]

Get on board with the Taupo Road Race Spectacular guys and gals to give them another body helping with the workload.
You will learn heaps about a really good event and maybe you can then become part of that team and slowly expand the Endurance race there without reinventing the wheel or even expand it to a small endurance series?
Have a good look around and at the history.
In recent history Endurance racing in NZ has been very poorly supported, no matter what the armchair champions on here say.
Does not mean it can't be done, but starting off with something that is already working would be smarter than trying to start off something new.

[cowpoos]

The sunset issue is still a problem – sunstrike may call for a 30 / 45 minute break in the middle of the event (Frosty, minds thinking alike).

Your taking the piss right??? seriously...if someone is objecting because of sunstrike...they will have excuses for not entering aswell...sunstrike is not...and is not...and is not an issuse!!

Riding in the dark at high speeds would be much much more of an issuse....but still no excuse for not entering.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

keen. the longer the better. let natural selection sort out the race result. but where would the marshalls shit?

[paulmac]

I can get a team. Mainly harleys tho. Most have race experience but no mnz licences. And we like to party !!

[Grumph]

I'm not familiar with the resource consent regs for most of the NI circuits but I'd love to know which has consent for racing after dusk...

Teretonga could be a real possibility - run it on the longest day & you probably wouldn't need lights

[vtec]

Just got a message from The Guzzi Widow, and sounds like they aren't holding their endurance race this year. This would be a great replacement.

6 hours is pretty nuts, but would be awesome would need 2 sets of tyres. I'd settle for the usual 3 hour endurance with 2 man teams. but 6 hours would be kick ass. Also, as others have mentioned, running motorbikes on the circuits into the night I don't believe will work. As others have said, depth perception and speed judgement turn to custard with fading light, and as others have mentioned it will be difficult to get lights onto all the race bikes.

I'm pumped for it though. Endurance racing is my specialty.

[Kickaha]

6 hours is pretty nuts, but would be awesome would need 2 sets of tyres. I'd settle for the usual 3 hour endurance with 2 man teams. but 6 hours would be kick ass.


6 hours used to be the standard, they were run at Manfield until the late eighties

[satchriossi]

I think a daytime event would be better and i like the idea of a 6 hour race. I would've thought the night racing idea would exclude alot of established club racers who wouldn't be able to enter their racebikes without trying to suss out a totally reliable lighting system to wire up and mount in their race fairings. My machine only has wiring for the charging and ignition systems for example. Though of course if someone really wanted to compete in a night race they'd do what needed to be done to make their bike fit for event and i'm sure many riders would be keen.

More endurance racing in NZ would be great - i hope this plan takes off, i spectated at the last BADD 3 hour and thought the whole day was mightily cool. I also thought it was mint how many top riders entered. Having a double World Superbike champion in the race was a bonus too!

[steveyb]

I'm pumped for it though. Endurance racing is my specialty.

No, Jason, you are just 'special'.
And anyway, Endurance? That's not what your missus told me....... (an oldie I know...)

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

real men (SLOW riders )use their road bikes on the track so lighting issues arent a problem!

[sidecar bob]

Just got a message from The Guzzi Widow, and sounds like they aren't holding their endurance race this year.
Its a shame the organisers didnt get a chance to tell us that first.
Good old kettle drums eh.

[scracha]

Its a shame the organisers didnt get a chance to tell us that first.
Good old kettle drums eh.

Aw fucksticks. I wanted to try and finish the bloody thing this year :-)

Purty please can someone who has a fuggin clue what they're dong organise this

[sidecar bob]

Aw fucksticks. I wanted to try and finish the bloody thing this year :-)

Purty please can someone who has a fuggin clue what they're dong organise this
These things dont just come around like Christmas, somebody has to organise it. Maybe theyre not this year.

[jellywrestler]

6 hours used to be the standard, they were run at Manfield until the late eighties Kick man is talking of the castrol six hour which more often than not was preceded by a three hour at pukekohe.
Serious shit in it's day with many interesting tricks and rule bending...
They used to chill the petrol so they could get more into a tank till one GPZ900, from my vague memory, had the motion lotion expand at a rate faster then the bike could use it and split the tank down the back straight at puke.
Those were the days when men were men and so were the women

[unhingedlizard]

sounds like a great idea. I'd be keen.

[scracha]

These things dont just come around like Christmas, somebody has to organise it. Maybe theyre not this year.
Kinda BADD form they've just dropped it without telling anyone as I'm sure given enough notice and a bit of hand-over assistance, someone else could have taken up the mantle.

[jellywrestler]

Kinda BADD form they've just dropped it without telling anyone as I'm sure given enough notice and a bit of hand-over assistance, someone else could have taken up the mantle. fact is there hasn't been any desicion whether or not the BADD endurance race is on so anything on kiwibiker till now is PURE SPECULATION. simple as that

[sidecar bob]

Kinda BADD form they've just dropped it without telling anyone as I'm sure given enough notice and a bit of hand-over assistance, someone else could have taken up the mantle.

Refer to my earlier post. Maybe if they were given enough time to make a decision & announce it before someone gaps them to it, we could avoid people suggesting they have bad form.
Maybe some of the "mentor" types could organise something for a change.

[scracha]

ts a shame the organisers didnt get a chance to tell us that first.
Good old kettle drums eh.



Refer to my earlier post. Maybe if they were given enough time to make a decision & announce it before someone gaps them to it, we could avoid people suggesting they have bad form.
Maybe some of the "mentor" types could organise something for a change.

Sorry, I got told Kiwi's didn't do sarcasm so missed that out in your earlier post.

[sidecar bob]

Sorry, I got told Kiwi's didn't do sarcasm so missed that out in your earlier post.

Who told you that? I got told the Scots didnt do moaning bitch too.

[Biggles08]

Who told you that? I got told the Scots didnt do moaning bitch too.

ahhhhh...is that what noise comes out of his mouth?!?! And here's me trying to understand him thinking its actually words?!?!

[scracha]

Who told you that? I got told the Scots didnt do moaning bitch too.
I'll do any moaning bitch as long as she's got good tits.

[Paul in NZ]

Team it up with a festival, band etc and a road riders rally where folks can camp out overnight and you have a winner...

[jellywrestler]

Team it up with a festival, band etc and a road riders rally where folks can camp out overnight and you have a winner... That's exactly what the Taupo Road Race spectacular is...
have you been to one?

[quickbuck]

Meh,
6 Hours is nothing... We do it on Mopeds ;)
And, it only takes a small team to organise..... Well, it is a small Air Force.
Anyhow, if somebody has got the skills to grab this and run with it, I would be keen to enter... Would be great to run in an enduro I didn't have to organise....

To be fair though, we get away with quite a few shortcuts when we run a mopedathon on Base.