Chinese not like greens..

[Elysium]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3825646/MPs-Tibet-protest-flag-removed

Not surprised this happened when you mix the Greens and protest together.

[BoristheBiter]

As much as I don't like the greens he has got a point.
why should an MP (whether you like him or not) get pushed around by chinese guards, ours should be well up to the task of pushing green MPs around.

[SPman]

Have you seen the size of some of those Chinese guards - not the runty little ones from the South - the "carved from a block of granite 2m high and almost as wide" types from North China.....

[Tank]

Whilst I despise the greens and refuse to side with them on, well, pretty much anything.

In this case, this one time only - they might just have a point.

There is no justification for him being manhandled at all - esp at the home of our government.

If it was the other-way around and we did it in China - the guy who did the pushing would be have shot already.

[slofox]

For some reason, visiting Chinese seem to think they are in charge of NZ...already..

[Elysium]

For some reason, visiting Chinese seem to think they are in charge of NZ...already..

They make our underwear so I think they own us already.

[mashman]

aren't there laws against that sort of thing lol...

[MisterD]

Whilst I despise the greens and refuse to side with them on, well, pretty much anything.

In this case, this one time only - they might just have a point.

They may have a point, but acting in a provocative manner towards an invited guest of the country, is not the sort of behaviour I expect from a party leader on parliament grounds either. Elected representatives should not be behaving like political studies students, even if that's what they once were. Grow up Russel.

[rainman]

why should an MP (whether you like him or not) get pushed around by chinese guards, ours should be well up to the task of pushing green MPs around.

Damn outsourcing! :)


If it was the other-way around and we did it in China - the guy who did the pushing would be have shot already.

Exactly.


aren't there laws against that sort of thing lol...

Yes.... and diplomatic immunity to circumvent them.

[CookMySock]

I'd say he knew he would get some type of negative response, but he went ahead anyway. All they did is pushed him and took his flag.. big deal.. If they pushed his gixxer thou over that would be different.

Steve

[JimO]

they should have chopsuied him

[AllanB]

Poor wee sweetie - got his flag nicked off him! He did get it back though!

It was so scary he probably popped out his Friday night butt-plug.

A big deal about nothing IMO.

[rustic101]

He sounded like a five year old that had just had a toy removed, o and that cut on his hand was so deep...

What a cock, in fact that's an insult to a cock!!

Go protest in China, Wussell

[CookMySock]

They should bunched him in the face LOL

S

[JMemonic]

One should really be asking what gives the Chinese security forces the right to engage in acts that are unacceptable in our country, remember here we have the freedom to protest, there is no reason for them to essentially assault and rob any person because their government disapproves of what is essentially a passive protest.

I am fairly sure the diplomatic protection act, which they will be well educated in before they are allowed to guard the Chinese politician as opposed to NZ police's diplomatic protection squad, does not include the right to manhandle anyone not posing a danger to the physical well being of their charge.

The fact China is upset because they illegally annexed Tibet, an independent nation for centuries and folks around the world take the time and opportunity to stand up for a peoples and say oi you have done wrong, should not hurt the sensibility of a seasoned politician such as Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping. Actions like this might go a long way towards some thinking the government of China feels a little guilty.

[CookMySock]

.. there is no reason for them to essentially assault and rob any person because their government disapproves ofBut its good fun! :lol:

Steve

[motor_mayhem]

Considering China has just signed a big free trade agreement with us, Russell was being f@cken silly, but I don't think the chinese guards should be allowed to disipline anyone who is a NZer in NZ not breaking any NZ laws.

[Scuba_Steve]

If only we could have more Chinese beating our MP's, it would be a much better place...

[Shadows]

They may have a point, but acting in a provocative manner towards an invited guest of the country, is not the sort of behaviour I expect from a party leader on parliament grounds either. Elected representatives should not be behaving like political studies students, even if that's what they once were. Grow up Russel.

Couldn't have put it better myself. What a fucking embarrassment.

[Jantar]

Whether Russel Norman was behaving appropiately or not is a moot point. No-one has the right to manhandle a New Zealand politician on Parliament grounds. I believe the Chineese still think they have the right to rule in New Zealand that they had under the Heil Clark administration.

Welcome to the People's Republic of New Zealand.

[oldrider]

Considering China has just signed a big free trade agreement with us, Russell was being f@cken silly, but I don't think the chinese guards should be allowed to disipline anyone who is a NZer in NZ not breaking any NZ laws.

True! Yes very true!

But wasn't it embarrassing to hear him squealing like a two year old, "GIVE ME BACK MY FLAG" !!! :o

Just imagine how bad it would be if the little Aussie wimp became our prime minister FFS! :Oops: (could happen)

Give him his flag back and an air ticket home as well! IMHO! :lol:

[flyingcrocodile46]

True! Yes very true!

But wasn't it embarrassing to hear him squealing like a two year old, "GIVE ME BACK MY FLAG" !!! :o

Just imagine how bad it would be if the little Aussie wimp became our prime minister FFS! :Oops: (could happen)

Give him his flag back and an air ticket home as well! IMHO! :lol:

Lol. I'd back that plan. Embarrassing the country with his initial actions (as an MP) and then even more so when his whining started.

Whining greenies are why we ended up with untreated timber in our already leaky homes and now have to fork out billions extra to fix decayed timber and pull whole cladding systems off and throw them away because the framing that's behind the cladding can't be left untreated. Fuck you very much Greenies.

We can't afford the ideals of these one eyed political pretenders. They have no or little knowledge about anything other than their environmental concerns. They have no more business in politics than the likes of Brian Tamaki or any other religious lackwits.

[Elysium]

Well police say lack of evidence so I say dear Russel will have to suck it up.

[Jantar]

Well police say lack of evidence ....
I guess seeing it happen on national TV with the Chineese goon's face clearly visible isn'tsufficient evidence. On that basis a speed camera ticket with your number plate clearly visible isn't sufficient evidence either.

[JMemonic]

I guess seeing it happen on national TV with the Chineese goon's face clearly visible isn'tsufficient evidence. On that basis a speed camera ticket with your number plate clearly visible isn't sufficient evidence either.

I like your thinking....

But we both know in reality the police are just bowing to pressure from above and our laws get hammered again but China, interestingly the act that allows these goons to operate in NZ came into being to allow Bill Clinton to visit and use his own protection detail (and have them armed), yet they were told in no uncertain terms NZ allows peaceful protest and demonstration so hands off, yet this massage has repeatedly failed to get through to the Chinese. Our government needs to stand up and say this behaviour is unacceptable here and if China cant follow the rules they don't get to use their own protection details.

[slofox]

But we both know in reality the police are just bowing to pressure from above and our laws get hammered again

Money speaks louder than the rule of law..?

[JMemonic]

Money speaks louder than the rule of law..?

I know who would have thought it happens here.....

[marty]

Russell Norman is an idiot. He has a priveleged position in governmet, and should use those priveleged processes available to him to protest - not some amateurish flag-waving/stunt show-offing waste of time. I believe that if the Chinese security thought their diplomat was in any danger (perceived/real or not) then of course they will take action - if someone turned up with a gun to shoot their diplomat, who do you think would be whipping out the Kalashnikovs? Not the NZ DPS that's for sure. That would apply for ANY big-country diplomat too - not just the chinese.

[marty]

I guess seeing it happen on national TV with the Chineese goon's face clearly visible isn'tsufficient evidence. On that basis a speed camera ticket with your number plate clearly visible isn't sufficient evidence either.

What is 'it'. 'It' is bullshit. They were simply preventing their diplomat from a percieved threat.

[spacemonkey]

What is 'it'. 'It' is bullshit. They were simply preventing their diplomat from a percieved threat.

No that is bullshit..... There was from the video very clearly no threat.
As the National party is apearing to be quite happy for outsiders to manhandle MP's on plarlimentary grounds if you disagree with their message..... I can't wait for someone to do the same to the dishonorable Nick "lets fuck over ACC" Smith.

[tri boy]

http://chinesefood.about.com/library/blvegetables.htm
Chinese DO like their Greens. I'm quite partial to bok choi myself.

[marty]

With the hindsight of video and stills it is easy to make decisions. An unknown person coming towards a diplomat in a somewhat aggressive or intentional manner is going to get his arse kicked forthwith. No question.

Pre-emptive strike is a legitimate defence.

[Elysium]

http://chinesefood.about.com/library/blvegetables.htm
Chinese DO like their Greens. I'm quite partial to bok choi myself.

Hence me thread title :shifty: Those Chinese clearly don't like their greens at all.

[Oakie]

Our government needs to stand up and say this behaviour is unacceptable here and if China cant follow the rules they don't get to use their own protection details.

1) Don't want to get into this too much but I am a little embarassed that a NZ MP would chose this method of protest. I expect a bit of decorum and dignity from our representatives when dealing with the representatives of another nation regardless of the issues involved.

2) I think the Chinese minders acted with a great deal of restraint compared to what would have happened if someone had tried this stunt in China.

3) As far as manhandling an MP in parliament grounds, was it said if Mr Norman acting as a private citizen or as an MP?

4) Would this have been such an issue if it was American minders with Mr Obama or Aussie minders with Mr ummm errr ...Prime Minister. Just wondering if this is just an anti-Chinese beat up?

[JimO]

1) Don't want to get into this too much but I am a little embarassed that a NZ MP would chose this method of protest. I expect a bit of decorum and dignity from our representatives when dealing with the representatives of another nation regardless of the issues involved.

2) I think the Chinese minders acted with a great deal of restraint compared to what would have happened if someone had tried this stunt in China.

3) As far as manhandling an MP in parliament grounds, was it said if Mr Norman acting as a private citizen or as an MP?

4) Would this have been such an issue if it was American minders with Mr Obama or Aussie minders with Mr ummm errr ...Prime Minister. Just wondering if this is just an anti-Chinese beat up?

Norman is a major cock

[Ixion]

Doesn't really matter if it's an MP or just Joe Bloggs. The delegation was here at the invitation of the government, not Parliament (they're not the same thing), so Norman was within his rights.

He was acting lawfully. I'm certainly no greenie, and I've never bothered to find out what all the fuss about Tibet is over (yak butter?); and Norman is undoubtedly a wally.

But he's our wally, and if anyone is going to give MPs the bash, it should be Kiwis (line forms on the left - yes it is very long, isn't it); not some Chinaman.

Sort of redefining laws and freedoms we've had for a good many centuries (and they don't have in China). In NZ you have a right to peacefully protest, unless there's Chinese around. ?

I wonder how we'd collectively feel if Mr Smith had invoked the same logic to order his minders to tear down the BIKEOI! banners and beat up on the bikers protesting ?

[spacemonkey]

I wonder how we'd collectively feel if Mr Smith had invoked the same logic to order his minders to tear down the BIKEOI! banners and beat up on the bikers protesting ?

Well as I've said elsewhere....

Key seems to be fairly indifferent to the shameful scene.
So if manhandling an Mp on parliaments grounds if you disagree with his or her message is acceptable to him, he won’t mind if the same is given to Smith at the next ACC protest then will he?? :o)

I’m picking he’d be Mr outrage at that which = hypocrite to me (although I’m picking smith to be too chickenshit to step outside again anyway).

[oldrider]

Anyone else notice how the TV have toned down the audio level of the loud pathetic "squealing" of "give me back my flag" on all their subsequent playbacks?

I actually agree with his rights but disagree with his behaviour! (that's just my opinion)

If he wants to make a dick of himself, fair enough but purposely toning down his highly audible squeals so that he doesn't sound so bad is a bit over the top IMHO! :oi-grr:

[marty]

I have issue with him gaining access as a pollie, then protesting like a non-pollie. What is the Green's policy on Tibet?

[JMemonic]

1) Don't want to get into this too much but I am a little embarassed that a NZ MP would chose this method of protest. I expect a bit of decorum and dignity from our representatives when dealing with the representatives of another nation regardless of the issues involved.

Granted he is a MP and decorum would be appropriate, I never saw him doing anything other than protest by holding up a flag of a nation that has been annexed by the Chinese, I would say where he lost it was his squealing.



2) I think the Chinese minders acted with a great deal of restraint compared to what would have happened if someone had tried this stunt in China.

That is my point, in comparison to how they would act in China is not a standard we should be holding them to, the standard should be how they are required to act in our country, as we are expected to in theirs.



3) As far as manhandling an MP in parliament grounds, was it said if Mr Norman acting as a private citizen or as an MP?

He is an MP but even as such his protest is none the less no different to the rights granted to all kiwis, it should not matter.



4) Would this have been such an issue if it was American minders with Mr Obama or Aussie minders with Mr ummm errr ...Prime Minister. Just wondering if this is just an anti-Chinese beat up?

Ruddy is the current Aussie, and from my perspective no it would not matter if it was any other foreign representatives security detail, I believe we have a set of standards here that all must follow, and if it was the Americans or Aussies we would not be so accepting of the behaviour.

[cowpoos]

The irony with all this is...Russel Norman and his ilk are/and do push socialist ideals...some that run parallels with communist regimes.

Also his message on the radio interview he did within the hour on Radio live...was pushing the barrow of free democracy. in a democracy the majority rules.
not the minority...like the greens and their rather foolish and misguided approach to most things. Some how believing they have support of more than a couple of people??

[Forest]

What a stupid thing to protest over.

The Chinese have done a huge amount of good work in Tibet.

People like to pretend that Tibet was some kind of mythical paradise, but it really wasn't. A tiny number of land-owners (feudal lords and monasteries) had complete control over an enslaved population of peasants that they controlled through brutality and punishing taxation.

[shrub]

What a stupid thing to protest over.

The Chinese have done a huge amount of good work in Tibet.

People like to pretend that Tibet was some kind of mythical paradise, but it really wasn't. A tiny number of land-owners (feudal lords and monasteries) had complete control over an enslaved population of peasants that they controlled through brutality and punishing taxation.

Actually quite a valid thing to protest over, and yes, Tibet was pretty heinous, but does that mean China should rule them? If having had a previously bad government meant it was OK for China to invade, then China had better get busy there are a lot of countries that need invading.

Go Russel Norman! He had the guts to stand up for what he believes in and challenge the Chinese whereas Homeowner Bill and Perky Rod just want to bend over and assume the position because China has money. "If you buy our shit you can do what you like to us". Maybe China have offered to pay Bill's mortgage and shout Roddy and his girlfriend an overseas trip? Saves you and I from having to do it.

[motor_mayhem]

Actually quite a valid thing to protest over, and yes, Tibet was pretty heinous, but does that mean China should rule them? If having had a previously bad government meant it was OK for China to invade, then China had better get busy there are a lot of countries that need invading.

Go Russel Norman! He had the guts to stand up for what he believes in and challenge the Chinese whereas Homeowner Bill and Perky Rod just want to bend over and assume the position because China has money. "If you buy our shit you can do what you like to us". Maybe China have offered to pay Bill's mortgage and shout Roddy and his girlfriend an overseas trip? Saves you and I from having to do it.

Well no that is utter crap. All of the other politicians understand that we elected them to look after the needs of New Zealand First and Foremost. Free trade with China will advance our economy. When we have some good will with China then we might be able to address the tibet issue but we would need to earn some first.

[BoristheBiter]

What a stupid thing to protest over.

The Chinese have done a huge amount of good work in Tibet.

People like to pretend that Tibet was some kind of mythical paradise, but it really wasn't. A tiny number of land-owners (feudal lords and monasteries) had complete control over an enslaved population of peasants that they controlled through brutality and punishing taxation.

You mean like England and oh i don't know.......... the world.

[888mike]

Who gives a toss about a whiny greeny or tibet, we have enough shit to sort in our own back yard we can't do anything about the biggest country in the world by waving a stupid flag you tosser.

[spacemonkey]

lol attempt to fly reactionary flag fails. (http://www.imperatorfish.com/2010/06/attempt-to-fly-reactionary-flag-fails.html)

[cowpoos]

lol attempt to fly reactionary flag fails. (http://www.imperatorfish.com/2010/06/attempt-to-fly-reactionary-flag-fails.html)

Errr??? thats not funny?

[spacemonkey]

*shrugs* Is to me. :)

[shrub]

I am perplexed as to why the Chinese are suddenly seen as such wonderful people by a few people here. Is it because they're an oppressive regime? Or maybe because they are a major cause of greenhouse gas emissions? Because they're communists? Because they will own us in the future? Or simply because the Green party has clashed with them?

If it was 1938 and Russell Norman had protested against a visit by Rudolf Hess on an official Nazi trip, would Norman still receive the tirade of abuse?

[spacemonkey]

Given the level of anti semitisim that was prevalent world wide back then, quite probably.

[MisterD]

If it was 1938 and Russell Norman had protested against a visit by Rudolf Hess on an official Nazi trip, would Norman still receive the tirade of abuse?

If he was acting like a dick of a student protester rather than upholding the responsibilities of his position, then yes. As many others have pointed out - compare Russ' stunt with the dignified behaviour of Rod Donald.

[shrub]

If he was acting like a dick of a student protester rather than upholding the responsibilities of his position, then yes. As many others have pointed out - compare Russ' stunt with the dignified behaviour of Rod Donald.

Interesting. I remember Rod Donald copping at least as much flack in his day. And if behaving with dignity was a reuirement for political office there would be about 10 people in parliament.

[MisterD]

Interesting.

I don't actually see much criticism of Russel's views on Tibet here, it's all about how he went about creating a gratuitous publicity stunt. Perhaps you're just conditioned to the general ridicule their usual loony-tunes policies receive that that point hadn't registered?

[shrub]

I don't actually see much criticism of Russel's views on Tibet here, it's all about how he went about creating a gratuitous publicity stunt. Perhaps you're just conditioned to the general ridicule their usual loony-tunes policies receive that that point hadn't registered?

You may be right, and while it seems that there are a few people who have citicised him for saying "give me my flag" in a wimpy way, and a few who think it's just not cool for an MP tp protest (he'd be much better taking his partner on a trip), at least as many of the comments I have seen here and on other sites simply criticise him for standing up to China. I think no matter what he would have done he would have been criticised for doing it because a lot of people have an almost pathological hatred of the greens; usually with no real foundation.

[888mike]

Gees shrub sounds like you are a wild tree hugger but i wont hold that against you, I love trees too they keep me warm at night lol.
"I love to burn tyres and trees" yee haa an im a red neck.

[mr_penguin]

Yeah yeah tree's good chop em down dry them out and mil them pump in the toxic's and build houses out of them ! :)

Keeps kiwi's employed and there not chinese made but we can hang a new zealand flag on them! :)

[BoristheBiter]

Gees shrub sounds like you are a wild tree hugger but i wont hold that against you, I love trees too they keep me warm at night lol.
"I love to burn tyres and trees" yee haa an im a red neck.

What Like "white by birth, trash by choice" :)

[Winston001]

With the hindsight of video and stills it is easy to make decisions. An unknown person coming towards a diplomat in a somewhat aggressive or intentional manner is going to get his arse kicked forthwith. No question.

Pre-emptive strike is a legitimate defence.

What he said. Diplomats at a high level have their own protection details and those guys act immediately. No messing around. You may recall President Regan was shot when his detail let the crowd too close. All the Chinese security guards would have seen was a man moving towards their guy - so they stopped him - and removed his flag which might have been cover for something else. They wouldn't know it was a Member of Parliament.

There are far more important things going on in NZ and the world than this petty issue.

[888mike]

Hey Boris nothin wrong with white trash even if im only half white but still not whining about green poofters.

[MisterD]

a lot of people have an almost pathological hatred of the greens;

That would be me, largely because they're a bunch of authoritarian social-engineers with a thin environmental veneer. I'd quite like to see a pragmatic "real" green party able to work with whatever government to advance actual environmental issues in a sensible way. I don't think Russel's rag tag bunch of hippies and communists would allow the genetic engineering required to get those pigs flying though...

[shrub]

That would be me, largely because they're a bunch of authoritarian social-engineers with a thin environmental veneer. I'd quite like to see a pragmatic "real" green party able to work with whatever government to advance actual environmental issues in a sensible way. I don't think Russel's rag tag bunch of hippies and communists would allow the genetic engineering required to get those pigs flying though...

I see, a fairly typical response. How much do you know about the current Green party members, about green ideology or the policies of the NZ Green party? How many of the current Green MPs are communists?

And what does "a bunch of authoritarian social-engineers" actually mean? Is that like National closing down ECan and appointing managers? Or the whole super city thing?

And I think you'll find that the Green party are willing to work with anyone and as I recall were open to working with National, but Perky Rodney and Act threw their toys out of the cot.

[cbrboy]

Who do these greenies think they are they want to turn black the clock and everybody should ride bycicles and walk everywhere. Dont they know this is the 21st century and the chinese are our friends. We cant afford to piss them off or they will stop trading with us and then well have to buy everything from britain and America and pay twice as much. Russell Norman should get real and realise he's hurting NZ with his stupid behavior.

[cowpoos]

How many of the current Green MPs are communists?
kieth locke........Interestingly....gareth hughes mother is...Robyn Hughes.
Co-leader Metiria Turei....is a ex- candidate for the McGillicuddy Serious Party and also the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party....so from that we know shes a retard!! and someone you can not take seriously!!

and as for mr....give me back my flag....give me back my flag....give me back my flag....give me back my flag...he needs to grow up...and get some life skills!!

[shrub]

Who do these greenies think they are they want to turn black the clock and everybody should ride bycicles and walk everywhere. Dont they know this is the 21st century and the chinese are our friends. We cant afford to piss them off or they will stop trading with us and then well have to buy everything from britain and America and pay twice as much. Russell Norman should get real and realise he's hurting NZ with his stupid behavior.

Very good, the greenies are evil because they want us to walk and cycle everywhere. Actually, they don't, but never let the truth get in the way of a good prejudice, and out of all of the parties they probably have the most vision and commitment to technology and development.

And international free trade agreements are very complex documents, and not as simple as you think. For example, my HP laptop (made in China) was purchased from Noel Leeming, who in turn purchased it from someone representing HP who are a multinational company based in (from memory) the US, and the Chinese are about as likely to say "we won't make your laptops any more because Russel Norman pissed us off" as Her Majesty the Queen is to release a hip hop song.

[shrub]

kieth locke........Interestingly....gareth hughes mother is...Robyn Hughes.
Co-leader Metiria Turei....is a ex- candidate for the McGillicuddy Serious Party and also the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party....so from that we know shes a retard!! and someone you can not take seriously!! !

Keith Locke is a communist? Really? I know his mother was, but then my mother was a nurse, and I'm not a nurse, so there goes that argument. And Turei may well have been a member of McGillicuddys - it shows she has a sense of humour and at one stage in her life didn't take things seriously. But your past means nothing - I was a founding member of the Act Party and thought Roger DOuglas was an OK kind of guy with some great ideas. Then I started studying politics and economics.

Nice try though, thanks.

[cowpoos]

Keith Locke is a communist? Really? I know his mother was, but then my mother was a nurse, and I'm not a nurse, so there goes that argument. And Turei may well have been a member of McGillicuddys - it shows she has a sense of humour and at one stage in her life didn't take things seriously. But your past means nothing - I was a founding member of the Act Party and thought Roger DOuglas was an OK kind of guy with some great ideas. Then I started studying politics and economics.

Nice try though, thanks.

well at the end of the day...we live in a democracy...which is something the greens support...as part of their own charter...the majority of this democracy think the greens are full of crap...and vote accordingly. Shows New Zealanders arn't stupid as a majority.

[Forest]

I am perplexed as to why the Chinese are suddenly seen as such wonderful people by a few people here. Is it because they're an oppressive regime? Or maybe because they are a major cause of greenhouse gas emissions? Because they're communists? Because they will own us in the future? Or simply because the Green party has clashed with them?

The Chinese government is moving hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

Can you even begin to realise the magnitude of this task?

It's a multi-generational process. In order to make the process equitable they need to maintain an authoritarian government so they can prevent the society fragmenting along economic and regional boundaries.

[shrub]

The Chinese government is moving hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

Can you even begin to realise the magnitude of this task?

It's a multi-generational process. In order to make the process equitable they need to maintain an authoritarian government so they can prevent the society fragmenting along economic and regional boundaries.

I am very aware of the complexity and magnitude of the task facing the Chinese government with a population of 1.33 bn, a land area of 2.5 m hectares, numerous languages (although the majority speak Mandarin) and a decentralised fiscal system which is essentially where local bodies fund health and education. From memory 500 million Chinese have been lifted from poverty, and on the face of it, that's a good thing. For a start, a functioning middle class is one of the key requirements of a successful democracy, and as inglehart identified, the wealthier a nation the more likely they are to adopt post-materialist ideologies (statistically most greenies are well educated and prosperous).

However the rising wealth in China is presenting some interesting problems (along with exciting opportunities). As consumption of goods and use of the ecosystem as a waste sink rises, air and water pollution is becoming a major problem, the amount of arable land in China has decreased by 20% over the last few decades, water shortages are becoming serious and rising ineuality is producing increasing civil unrest; something that has been exacerbated by the restrictions placed on urban migration because all the money to be made is in the cities.

And it's interesting watching the impact of China on the NZ dairy industry. I have a good friend who's a resource management consultant, and a lot of his job involves helping dairy farmers manage their available water and access new water supplies, and he is convinced that within 10 years Canterbury will be facing a major environmental problem from nitrification and depletion of the aquifers, mostly caused by massive increases in dairy which in turn is driven by increased demand and increased prices. Which impact on the price you and I pay for a pint of milk and a slab of cheese.

As a nation where our greatest resource is water, we need to manage the consumption of that water carefully because in the future it will place us in a very strong position. Because all farming is essentially converting water and sunlight into food, and thereby exporting that water, it may be that we need to move away from dairy into vegetables or even back to grains and cereals (grain is the most efficient way to export water). We also need to develop technologies that can increase the efficiency of our agriculture (including GE) and export our technological expertise, which is why the Greens are so gung-ho on science and technology (although I disagree with their position on genetic engineering).

[shrub]

well at the end of the day...we live in a democracy...which is something the greens support...as part of their own charter...the majority of this democracy think the greens are full of crap...and vote accordingly. Shows New Zealanders arn't stupid as a majority.

Not really. From my observation the majority of people don't really understand any of the parties or have read any of their policies (I did a degreen in politics a few years ago, and had to read and analyse them all for an assessment), and have based their position on the Greens on what their mates at the pub reckon, Sue Bradford stopping them from hitting kids and Nandor Tancoz smoking pot. And life is not a binary, so just because you don't vote for a party doesn't mean you think they're "full of crap". I didn't vote for National because I think they're weak and unimaginative, and potentially even more duplicitous than Labour, but there are a lot of things I like about National and National policies and don't think they're "full of crap".

But even if the majority do think "the greens are full of crap", representative democracy is about representing the diversity of opinions in society, and 7.5% of the population support the Greens, and that is a significant percentage. The Greens will never be the government, and that's a good thing. Their role as a smaller party is to influence the decisions of the big catch-all parties and provide checks and balances - and the same applies to Act. Both Act and the Greens are important voices in parliament, although I think Peter Dunne is surplus to reuirements and I am unsure of the value of the Maori party.

[Winston001]

As a nation where our greatest resource is water, we need to manage the consumption of that water carefully because in the future it will place us in a very strong position. Because all farming is essentially converting water and sunlight into food, and thereby exporting that water, it may be that we need to move away from dairy into vegetables or even back to grains and cereals (grain is the most efficient way to export water). We also need to develop technologies that can increase the efficiency of our agriculture (including GE) and export our technological expertise, which is why the Greens are so gung-ho on science and technology (although I disagree with their position on genetic engineering).

Thoughtful post and I agree. Our pastoral farming business is bucolic and relatively green compared with other nations. Nevertheless it is not particularly efficent in terms of food production. Market gardening produces far more nutrition per hectare than sheep, beef, or dairy farming. I don't know the statistics for grain but suspect you are right - its a very efficient way of producing and shipping food.

The thing about water is we can use it much more cleverly than the broadcast irrigation schemes you see from the road. For example spot irrigation run between 10pm and 8am when the soil is cool avoids evaporation. Spot irrigation is a system of small water spray points dotted over a pasture. In a garden this can be permanent but on a farm it needs to be moveable so some work is required moving lines around. Heavy hooved animals such as cows can be a problem but I'm sure there are solutions.

Another issue is soil type. In NZ we have a variety of soils, some consisting of deep loam, others being light and porous such as Canterbury. Its a glacial outwash plain with thin soil deficient in humus and thus unable to retain moisture. Same with the Mackenzie Country. Yet people want to dairy farm in these places??!! Insanity.

The simple rule is to respect nature and work with it. Dry desert conditions? Sow drought-resistant grasses. Its not rocket science.