Nelson blitz on bikers... [Archive]

rustyrobot

19th June 2010, 16:36

Looked but didn't see it posted yet...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3831632/Blitz-on-bikers-sparks-tension

Blitz on bikers sparks tension

Some Nelson motorcyclists say they are "disgusted" by a 100-day police campaign to target riders even if they are not doing anything wrong.

The campaign is a result of a large number of motorcycle crash fatalities in the Tasman police district over the past nine months.

Police say that, unusually, all 11 of the fatalities since last September were the fault of the motorcyclist. In the five cases where other vehicles were involved, the drivers of those vehicles were not at fault.

Tasman district road policing manager Inspector Hugh Flower said that from July 1, police would be asked to spend 15 minutes of their shift time to stop and check motorcycle and moped riders.

This would enable officers to ascertain the rider's licence status, check their vehicle for road safety compliance, and pass on the message to take care on the roads.

"We want to indicate to them that we don't want to be scraping them off the road."

However, the president of the Nelson Ulysses motorcycle club, Lorraine Lindsay, said most accidents were caused by inattentive motorists rather than motorcycle riders.

"We are all pretty disgusted by this. I have been riding 47 years, and the only accident I have had is by a car backing out of a driveway. They are such bad drivers in New Zealand."

Anger in the motorcycle community has also been stoked by comments by Tasman district commander Superintendent Gary Knowles, who said motorcycle crashes were a "middle-aged man thing".

"[Riders] just appear to be coming up here, if I'm brutally honest, with their midlife crisis and riding around and dying," he said.

Mr Knowles said the region had a disproportionate number of motorcycle fatalities compared with the rest of the country.

Last year, 13 per cent of all road deaths nationally, or 48 deaths, involved motorcyclists, compared with 28 per cent of fatal road accidents, or six deaths, in the Tasman police district.

Tony McIntosh, who was seriously injured by a utility turning into a driveway at Pakawau this year, said most of the people he rode with had owned bikes when they were younger.

"Then you get married and have kids and get rid of the bike. When you get older, you buy another bike, but with my [accident], there was nothing I could do. I had taken every precaution but still I got hit."

Mr McIntosh's right leg was broken and his pelvis was broken in four places. In March, the ute's driver, Gary Climo, 56, of Pakawau, was fined $2500 and disqualified from driving for seven months.

Mr McIntosh said the motorcyclists he knew took every precaution when riding, including taking safe driving courses. "When you are riding a bike, you a defensive driver plus. You have to be because you are that much more vulnerable."
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Tasman District Council road safety co-ordinator Krista Hobday said accidents were increasing as more motorcycles came on the roads. The number of motorcycles and scooters in the Nelson region has increased by 70 per cent over the past five years, and the number of crashes involving them has doubled.

"It's definitely not good, but we are continuing to run campaigns and training courses to make sure motorcyclists know what the issues are," she said.

onearmedbandit

19th June 2010, 17:04

I think the figures stand for themselves. 11 fatalities in the past 9 months, and every one of them determined to be the riders fault. Motorcyclists have identified themselves as a target, I'm sure the response to this would be positive if it was 'boy-racers' instead of motorcyclists. I'm a bit bewildered by the response from the Nelson Ulysses rep, it's obviously not the other road users who have contributed to this isolated spate of fatalities. Surely they would be better seen to say that riders need to take responsibility for their own actions on the road, and not point the finger at all other road users by saying "They are such bad drivers in New Zealand".

rustyrobot

19th June 2010, 17:11

When I was in Melbourne last October I was surprised to see so many billboards targetting motorcyclists - and I dont think I saw any targetting car drivers. It was a little off-putting, all those reminders of your vulnerability, but it seems like a sensible way of reminding riders to take care of themselves. Also a lot less intrusive than being pulled over and having your bike checked over for 'road safety compliance' and getting the third degree from Mr.Plod.

Ixion

19th June 2010, 17:17

Theres a lot of tourism in the Nelson diatrict. And a big bike hire business.

I wonder how many riders were riding their own bikes on a NZ licence.

Not an anti, just that NZ roads are maybe a bit different to what they are uaed to, and on a strange bike, with maybe on the opposite side of the road to what theyre used to. Which means left handers become right handers and vice versa. Jolly confusing.

onearmedbandit

19th June 2010, 17:20

Katman

19th June 2010, 17:20

Ocean1

19th June 2010, 17:25

While I don't agree with just pulling over people even if they are doing no wrong, I don't know of any other way they could bring this to peoples attention as well as this has obviously done (in Nelson).

Be interested in a legal opinion on whether it boiled down to harasment. I don't believe they've got any business buttonholeing motorists going about their business.

Did nobody see this coming? The day they invented ACC cover for road accidents it became inevitable they'd decide they needed to control your behaviour.

Suckers.

Coldrider

19th June 2010, 17:26

"This would enable officers to ascertain the rider's licence status, check their vehicle for road safety compliance, and pass on the message to take care on the roads."

Unless these items were found to be the root cause of the fatalities, the pigs may as well hand the motorcyclists lollipops.

Genie

19th June 2010, 17:30

On any given Sunday there are literally hundreds of bikes on the roads in paradise....surely with so many bikes on the road the crash rate would rise. Best I go pop the 'L' plate back on. Be extra vigiliant whenever you are ridng.

scumdog

19th June 2010, 17:35

Be interested in a legal opinion on whether it boiled down to harasment. I don't believe they've got any business buttonholeing motorists going about their business.

"Any where - any time"

Of course they could instead just send out letters to motorcyclists asking:
Are you sober?
Do you have a full motorcycle licence?
Does you bike have a current WOF?

And thereby saving the effort of actually stopping any motorist going about their own business.:whistle:

Woodman

19th June 2010, 17:36

Well if the flange did nothing about 11 fatalities in 9 months they would not be doing their job would they?

I live in Nelson and support it, if you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to worry about, mind you I wonder how many were local vs passing through riders?

scumdog

19th June 2010, 17:38

Looked but didn't see it posted yet...

peasea probably pissed off the wrong cop..:shifty:

sinned

19th June 2010, 17:52

peasea probably pissed off the wrong cop..:shifty:
You're doing well scumdog. BTW you need to update your signature - 10,000 posts. :yes:

Ixion

19th June 2010, 18:27

"Any where - any time"

Of course they could instead just send out letters to motorcyclists asking:
Are you sober?
Do you have a full motorcycle licence?
Does you bike have a current WOF?

And thereby saving the effort of actually stopping any motorist going about their own business.:whistle:

Not quite . Any where any time at an individual level , but overall it has to be non discriminatory, human rights complaint, all that sort of stuff. For instance, if it were found that a police district stopped Maoris (or gingas , or <insert minority of choice>) 10 times as often as other groups, relative to population, then that could be considered harassment.

Or, to put it another way, it could be argued that stopping road users for compliance checks (or breath checks) is OK, any where any time. But, if those compliance checks were just waving through a select group of road users without checking (say, drivers of European cars, or drivers with the local football club sticker in the windscreen), then that would be a corrupt practice.

So, if cops want to check vehicles for compliance checks, then they need to check all vehicels that go through the check point. No letting vehicles with four wheels get off.

JATZ

19th June 2010, 19:11

Interesting........
Personaly it doesn't bother me, whats an extra couple of minutes to the journey anyway ?
BTW where does the law stand on riding with an L plate when you have your full ?

rustic101

19th June 2010, 19:25

may as well hand the motorcyclists lollipops.

I predict riders may receive small packets of yellow and black jelly beans or wine gums or maybe even jet planes...

rustic101

19th June 2010, 19:32

So, if cops want to check vehicles for compliance checks, then they need to check all vehicels that go through the check point. No letting vehicles with four wheels get off.

What they are trying to achieve is no different than past campaigns. Recently the Tasman District identified a similar issue with the heavy trade. As a result set up a road side stop and mobile target of all heavy vehicles. This was conducted in association with other professional bodies and was a huge success in both education and compliance.

Personally I love sharing the road with users that are safe, aware and complying to the rules the remainder of us meet.

Like speeding, if you comply you have nothing to fear.

Rogue Rider

19th June 2010, 19:49

I agree with the comments that the popo have to respond with some sort of proactive action to curve the trend of motorcyclists smashing themselves up and dieing on the roads.
I am of coarse curious about the stats, as they a certainly not reflective of the norm. It would be fair in my view point that most motorcycle accidents are actually not a direct result of the motorcyclists actions. Often what is forgotten is that sometimes, frequently, evasive actions have to be applied to avoid impending accidents from other traffic or external elements such as animals.
Yes, agreed some muppets shouldn't be riding, in fact some shouldn't even be breathing, however they are so we need to get passed that.
Riders who have been off the horse for a while, most certainly should re school themselves in rider training and experience. They should choose appropriate rides and not exceed there riding ability until they are re acquainted. I have seen some atrocious riding from middle aged men+ who jump back on a bike after a 30yr absence. It's a bloody scary idea, as the bikes a different, more powerful, and they themselves aren't as sharp in the ability or reflex department, some even have vision issues.

I think popo are warranted and justified to pull riders over at random points to make a point. It does create awareness, and it does sink in. I do think that there is too much emphasis on ticketing these days over education and encouragement. When was the last time a popo gave you positive feedback, and some good advice. Mostly you get silent treatment, a barreling, or just an arrogant ignoramus.
Just because one is in law enforcement doesn't nec mean you have to be a dick all your life about things lol.

Memo to all the old bastards and re entrants into riding...... Take care out there, and don't be a bloody statistic. Stay alive and keep your family happy......... or tortured, whichever you are.

To Learners, take time to learn, listen to sound advice, bigger isn't better, unless your a puppet and waiting for a hand to thrust up your jaxi. Go on group rides, and follow lines and good riding educate. If you want to ride good, learn from someone who is good, not a dick with a bike full of viagra. If you do, you'll blow yourself all over the road.

Corse1

19th June 2010, 19:56

red mermaid

19th June 2010, 20:03

Absolute rubbish, as there is already a group in the police that in the majority stop and inspect only one type of vehicle.

This tactic is simply targetting to risk.
Motorcycle riders in Tasman district have shown from the fatal crash stats to be an at risk group, so they have made themselves a group to be checked for compliance.

Or, to put it another way, it could be argued that stopping road users for compliance checks (or breath checks) is OK, any where any time. But, if those compliance checks were just waving through a select group of road users without checking (say, drivers of European cars, or drivers with the local football club sticker in the windscreen), then that would be a corrupt practice.

.

Ixion

19th June 2010, 20:16

Incorrect. As usual.

The legal justification for CVIU stopping trucks lies in the fact that they are checking things like log books, loading etc that are only relevant to trucks.

You are arguing (for instance) that CVIU are entitled to stop trucks driven by Maoris and ignore ones driven by whites . Which would be illegal.

Motorcycles have little that specifically distinguishes them from cars. One example that would be legal would be to stop all motorcycles to check engine capacity,whilst ignoring cars since motorcyclists have limits on engine size and cars do not.

But, as we know that you make the law up as you go along to suit yourself, such minor bagatelle as the Human Rights Act , Bill of Rights, etc are no doubt of no interest to you .

Coldrider

19th June 2010, 20:18

I predict riders may receive small packets of yellow and black jelly beans or wine gums or maybe even jet planes...Quite a few years ago there was a campaign where lollipops were handed out by popos to motorists who displayed good judgement. Maybe you did not receive one to suck off.

Roadsafe Nelson

19th June 2010, 20:20

Whilst out riding with friends a couple of months ago, we were pulled over at one such checkpoint in the Whangamoas (heading towards Blenheim). Motorcyclists were taken to the side, our rego/wof/riding gear & licences were checked. Bottled water & refreshments were offered.

In attendance at the checkpoint were a variety of people. The Police, The Tasman District Council & the local Nelson Injury Prevention Office for ACC. They were interested in collecting information from the motorcyclists stopped, on what our concerns were when riding on the road.. eg: gravel/road works & lack of signage, other road users, road conditions etc. Feedback from this collected information is to be handed onto the relevant organisations concerned.. eg: roading companies

As a result of the information collected a flier has just been released locally with relevant contact details available for motorcyclists to contact & raise their concerns to.

To note.. ALL traffic was stopped at this checkpoint & ALL licence's/rego & wofs were checked, not just motorcyclists.

Feedback I heard from the TDC was that a very high proportion of the bikers stopped were correctly licenced & had current rego/wofs.. & were wearing appropriate gear.

Personally I felt heard & respected by the people conducting the checkpoint.

Coldrider

19th June 2010, 20:29

This tactic is simply targetting to risk.
So out of the motorcyclists killed, most had an invalid class of licence, and/ or had no Wof for this tactic to work, just as well no thinking is involved.

edit, reads like being a middle aged man on a motorcycle in the Nelson district is a going to have you stopped on the roadside as well.

Ixion

19th June 2010, 20:30

Personally, I would see nothing wrong with that. All vehicles were being stopped. Police offered advice relevant to the vehicle . They might equally have offered (for example) advice about child restraints to people with children in the car. Or advice about towing trailers to those doing so.

A different matter to singling out a specific class of road user for "blitzing" .

They had a thing like thta up here about a year ago, and they were dishing out free hi-viz jackets. I actually went out riding looking for them to try to score a free jacket (got to be worth something on Trademe). Couldn't find the bastards. Never there when you want them eh, :shifty:

oldrider

19th June 2010, 20:31

Well frankly I don't mind if they pull me up for a routine check etc because everything is in order anyway and I gave up being a pisshead long long ago!

Now if they could just tow one of those little coffee trailers (with a toilet attached of course) around so that we could kill two or three birds with one stone, it could probably be quite a social event!

Somebody we know would make a great "barista", he could wear his skull mask and tassels just to add to the atmosphere and hand out hot "blueberry" :Police: muffins as a token of goodwill.

Yep, I am warming to this idea, the more I think about it, the more I like it!

I just can't wait for this new initiative to spread on down this way! :Police::ride::grouphug::ride::Police:

Ixion

19th June 2010, 20:32

rustyrobot

19th June 2010, 20:32

Now if they could just tow one of those little coffee trailers (with a toilet attached of course) around so that we could kill two or three birds with one stone, it could probably be quite a social event!

I can just see it now... the call goes out on kiwibiker and every rider in the district turns up for a free coffee :)

Ixion

19th June 2010, 20:34

I'm not at all sure that the one we had up here didn't have coffee as well as free jackets. I was really pissed off that I missed out.

dipshit

19th June 2010, 20:55

I am of coarse curious about the stats, as they a certainly not reflective of the norm.

They are typical. This is what happens when you have a urban rural split.

In urban areas you have more multitable vehicle accidents in which a significant percentage is indeed the fault of a car drivers. These accidents tend to be at lower speeds and result in more minor injuries rather than the serious or fatal ones.

In rural areas it is more single vehicle motorcycle accidents and they typically happen at higher speeds. Usually a motorcycle flailing to take a corner and runs into a ditch or oncoming car. These accidents result in more of the serious injuries or fatales.

You can see in these MoT stats that 75% of motorcycle fatalities were the fault of the rider.
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

BRONZ and the like are talking complete bullshit when they say things like "it's all the car drivers fault - our shit doesn't stink". If you are stupid enough to believe those idiots - then that's your problem. It doesn't actually make it true though no matter how many deluded motorcyclists believe it.

JATZ

19th June 2010, 21:02

Actually, that flyer (in 'Roadsafes' post) is excellent. First class work, Tasman District Council.

I will pass a copy on to Auckland City Council, and tell them to get off their arses and emulate it.

T.D.C. seem quite keen on upskilling. All 3 of the riders in our house have done roadsafe courses organized by the council, the boys done 2. I think they even provide some degree of funding to meet some of the costs, I'm sure RoadsafeNelson will correct me if I'm wrong.
Now if only they could fix their damn roads to a proper standard then some of the accidents wouldn't happen, maybe, but thats another story

Roadsafe Nelson

19th June 2010, 21:07

Also just launched in Nelson this week is a 24 page Road Safety newspaper, showing a variety of local crash hotspots, changed road layouts, pages on sharing the road with various other road users, including 2 full pages on motorcycles.

see attached

scumdog

19th June 2010, 21:11

Ixion

19th June 2010, 21:12

It just gets better. If one district can do intelligent and helpful stuff like that why can't others. Not sure how much effect it will have, cynically I suspect the people who are the problem on the roads (two wheels or four), can't read. But at least its trying in an intelligent fashion.

You don't happen to have a contact name for the TDC person responsible by any chance?

Roadsafe Nelson

19th June 2010, 21:34

Roadsafe, TDC & ACC have been working very closely together for the past 5 years to bring professional rider training to the motorcyclists of Nelson & beyond.

Our courses are held in very high regard, with people on the waiting list for upcoming traininig days.

Since launching my business (Roadsafe Nelson) at the end of last year, in partnership with Roadsafe Wgtn.. I have been very busy with people wanting to get training & do the BHS test for their Learners Licence.. I have also had a number of on road assessments & people wanting coaching in preparation for their Restricted & Full Licence Test with the testing officer. Quite a number of my trainees are people who have been riding for years without a licence & now want to be road legal, or who rode years ago & are wanting to get back into riding.. as well as complete newbies

The feedback I have received from my trainees is incredibly humbling to say the least. The main bike shops here are very supportive of Roadsafe, & I receive calls nearly every day from people who have been referred to me.

I love what I do. I am deeply grateful for the opportunity I have been given by Roadsafe Wgtn & all the wonderful people who have made my new career possible. & I am dedicated to doing my best to help motorcyclists be safer on our roads.. one biker at a time :yes:

Attached is a letter that was published in the paper this week from Krista Hobday, our Road Safety Co-Ordinator at the TDC. We are currently working on other initiatives & further TDC & ACC sponsored training weekends as well.

scumdog

19th June 2010, 21:36

Roadsafe, TDC & ACC have been working very closely together for the past 5 years to bring professional rider training to the motorcyclists of Nelson & beyond.

Our courses are held in very high regard, with people on the waiting list for upcoming traininig days.

Since launching my business (Roadsafe Nelson) at the end of last year, in partnership with Roadsafe Wgtn.. I have been very busy with people wanting to get training & do the BHS test for their Learners Licence.. I have also had a number of on road assessments & people wanting coaching in preparation for their Restricted & Full Licence Test with the testing officer. Quite a number of my trainees are people who have been riding for years without a licence & now want to be road legal, or who rode years ago & are wanting to get back into riding.. as well as complete newbies

The feedback I have received from my trainees is incredibly humbling to say the least. The main bike shops here are very supportive of Roadsafe, & I receive calls nearly every day from people who have been referred to me.

I love what I do. I am deeply grateful for the opportunity I have been given by Roadsafe Wgtn & all the wonderful people who have made my new career possible. & I am dedicated to doing my best to help motorcyclists be safer on our roads.. one biker at a time :yes:

.

Of course with my daughter being part of said Roadsafe it HAS to be good!:msn-wink:

Roadsafe Nelson

19th June 2010, 21:50

You don't happen to have a contact name for the TDC person responsible by any chance?

Krista Hobday
Tasman District Council
035438551

Ixion

19th June 2010, 22:12

Thanks. I'll call her.

Woodman

19th June 2010, 22:18

Gee I never knew tdc were doing all this, makes me happier about paying my rates now...

Ixion, your argument about discrimination is imho one of those silly hyperthetical academic arguments that really have no place in reality.

Roadsafe Nelson

19th June 2010, 22:27

The Road Safety newspaper was a group effort put together by:

Tasman District Council
Nelson City Council
ACC
Land Transport Agency
& The Nelson Mail

Ixion

19th June 2010, 22:32

Silly hypothetical arguments that have no basis in reality are what we call a "constitutiom". Its what distinguishes proper laws from the stuff that the scaley gentlewomam makes up as she goes along

All part of those silly hypothetical thimgs like feedom, liberty and such like.

fossil

19th June 2010, 23:12

Hi Jen, I hear on the grapevine that Motorcycling New Zealand has been working hard to get a better deal for motorcyclists in your area,even presenting to the Regional Land Transport Committee and the TDC, any truth?

miloking

20th June 2010, 02:20

Quite a few years ago there was a campaign where lollipops were handed out by popos to motorists who displayed good judgement. Maybe you did not receive one to suck off.

Was it that part where after you pulled over and rolled down your window ...cop unziped his pants and told you to open your mouth??? Yeah i had couple of those stops for sure...and since then i decided its better to be on a bike.

red mermaid

20th June 2010, 11:06

And now you are making up that we have a constitution?

Silly hypothetical arguments that have no basis in reality are what we call a "constitutiom". Its what distinguishes proper laws from the stuff that the scaley gentlewomam makes up as she goes along

All part of those silly hypothetical thimgs like feedom, liberty and such like.

cold comfort

20th June 2010, 11:17

You're an expert at making excuses, aren't you?

Actually despite your facetious comment, i would be interested to know the stats. I was speaking to the owner of "a bike hire company" in Nelson who described the spectacular carnage caused by two "overseas" riders not being able to get to grips with the correct side of the road (and the stern safety briefing) actually running into each other.

davereid

20th June 2010, 11:46

And now you are making up that we have a constitution?

We certainly don't have a single constitution document in the American Style.

But the 1986 Constitution Act ties together a number of separate Acts, all of which taken together form a constitution. This includes the 1990 Bill of Rights Act.

It also Enumerates the Rights of Citizens against the state; enacts into law some of New Zealand's obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Basically, New Zealanders have the right to be able to go about their business without being subject to random search and seizure.

The Police and Government have taken the view that the Bill of Rights is not supreme legislation, indeed that was how it was written.

But the Courts are not always accepting that principal, indeed they have regularly taken the view that it is de-facto supreme legislation, and can only be overturned with extreme cause.

So far, no one has ever challenged traffic stops.

But there have been several very quiet ruling about Fisheries.

Fisheries officers have for many years conducted random searches of vehicles, boats and people who they believe have been fishing. Generally speaking fisheries officers rely on section 192 of the Fisheries Act , which enables them to conduct warrant-less searches.

They exercised this right against United Fisheries, when they seized a swath of records and computer equipment.

Interestingly, the Judge was not convinced that Fisheries had overstepped the mark, as they had some good evidence that the law had been broken. But nonetheless, he found the seizure to be in-conflict with the Bill of Rights. He ordered the Ministry of Fisheries NOT to examine the seized equipment or records, until they had proven their case to the court. The main reason being, in a very complex judgement, that their may be material seized that is not relevant to the "due cause" used to justify the search.

In another ruling, a man was stopped at a fisheries checkpoint.

He refused to allow his vehicle to be searched, and Fisheries officers arrested him for obstruction, and searched his vehicle anyway.

The court ruled that refusing to allow a search is not obstruction. If the officer has the legal power to conduct the search he can do it without the authority of the vehicle owner. If he does not have the legal authority, then it is not obstruction to deny the search.

It would only become obstruction, if the search was being conducted legally, and the vehicle owner attempted to stop it.

In this case, the court also found that the fisheries officer did not have "due cause" to search the vehicle. The fact that the chap had been to the beach was not due cause to believe he had broken fisheries legislation.

The point of the rant ?

The search and surveillance bill was introduced as the government was very aware that many of the search and seizure events conducted every day by law enforcement officials were possibly illegal. Now its been sent back. Random stopping of individual groups, may well breach the Bill of Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Watch this space as they say.

Roadsafe Nelson

20th June 2010, 13:07

Attached are 2 pages of stats from NZTA for the years 2004 - 2008 for:

Tasman District
& Nelson City

I will try & get more up to date info this week.

I do know that a lot of riders from out of town (either foreign or other parts of NZ) do increase our stats here, unfortunately!! People are drawn to come here to ride our awesome roads, but they get caught out with their cornering, with many losing control & running off the road.. as shown on the Tasman stats.. 40% are reported as single vehicle crashes.

Smifffy

20th June 2010, 13:34

LOL Feedom - yup that's wot we has in good ole NZ alright...

Silly hypothetical arguments that have no basis in reality are what we call a "constitutiom". Its what distinguishes proper laws from the stuff that the scaley gentlewomam makes up as she goes along

All part of those silly hypothetical thimgs like feedom, liberty and such like.

Ocean1

20th June 2010, 16:51

40% are reported as single vehicle crashes.

That's pretty good.

Given that there's a shit load more real estate down there to hit than traffic...

Edit: I believe it's also about the natoinal average.

Woodman

20th June 2010, 16:55

We certainly don't have a single constitution document in the American Style.

But the 1986 Constitution Act ties together a number of separate Acts, all of which taken together form a constitution. This includes the 1990 Bill of Rights Act.

It also Enumerates the Rights of Citizens against the state; enacts into law some of New Zealand's obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Basically, New Zealanders have the right to be able to go about their business without being subject to random search and seizure.

The Police and Government have taken the view that the Bill of Rights is not supreme legislation, indeed that was how it was written.

But the Courts are not always accepting that principal, indeed they have regularly taken the view that it is de-facto supreme legislation, and can only be overturned with extreme cause.

So far, no one has ever challenged traffic stops.

But there have been several very quiet ruling about Fisheries.

Fisheries officers have for many years conducted random searches of vehicles, boats and people who they believe have been fishing. Generally speaking fisheries officers rely on section 192 of the Fisheries Act , which enables them to conduct warrant-less searches.

They exercised this right against United Fisheries, when they seized a swath of records and computer equipment.

Interestingly, the Judge was not convinced that Fisheries had overstepped the mark, as they had some good evidence that the law had been broken. But nonetheless, he found the seizure to be in-conflict with the Bill of Rights. He ordered the Ministry of Fisheries NOT to examine the seized equipment or records, until they had proven their case to the court. The main reason being, in a very complex judgement, that their may be material seized that is not relevant to the "due cause" used to justify the search.

In another ruling, a man was stopped at a fisheries checkpoint.

He refused to allow his vehicle to be searched, and Fisheries officers arrested him for obstruction, and searched his vehicle anyway.

The court ruled that refusing to allow a search is not obstruction. If the officer has the legal power to conduct the search he can do it without the authority of the vehicle owner. If he does not have the legal authority, then it is not obstruction to deny the search.

It would only become obstruction, if the search was being conducted legally, and the vehicle owner attempted to stop it.

In this case, the court also found that the fisheries officer did not have "due cause" to search the vehicle. The fact that the chap had been to the beach was not due cause to believe he had broken fisheries legislation.

The point of the rant ?

The search and surveillance bill was introduced as the government was very aware that many of the search and seizure events conducted every day by law enforcement officials were possibly illegal. Now its been sent back. Random stopping of individual groups, may well breach the Bill of Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Watch this space as they say.

Understand all this , but the flange are not stopping individual groups of people, they are targetting a certain type of motor vehicle. They even have special areas for trucks.
Motor vehicles don't have rights, and nor can they read. It is no secret that there is a campaign here targetting motorcycles.
Its not personal, there is a problem and they are trying to fix it.

red mermaid

20th June 2010, 17:05

Mom

20th June 2010, 17:26

I can just see it now... the call goes out on kiwibiker and every rider in the district turns up for a free coffee :)

Geeze, they had better not try something like that in the Mahawatu, the locals will simply follow them around :D

I was speaking to the owner of "a bike hire company" in Nelson who described the spectacular carnage caused by two "overseas" riders not being able to get to grips with the correct side of the road (and the stern safety briefing) actually running into each other.

I do know that a lot of riders from out of town (either foreign or other parts of NZ) do increase our stats here, unfortunately!! People are drawn to come here to ride our awesome roads, but they get caught out with their cornering, with many losing control & running off the road.. as shown on the Tasman stats.. 40% are reported as single vehicle crashes.

I see an opportunity here Jen.

LBD

20th June 2010, 18:13

I endorse the "motives" of the police in this instance but I object to the means eg ...I object to being stopped and subjected to an inspection solely because I am on a MC ....with a view to checking if my bike is "Safe" especially considering it is not so much the bikes condition and safety, than the riders judgment that has been at fault ...

Coldrider

20th June 2010, 18:22

Dead right, they have found a problem and are trying to fix it and all the so called 'experts' on KB is criticise instead of coming up with some ideas on how to stop fellow m/cyclists killing themselves.

Plus, they are only stopping bikes, not searching them as is the topic of the rant quoted above.well if I continually get pulled over by the plod then I will be death free. Shit in that case I can ride like I want cos I have no worries.

More likely some top cop in Nelson has had his butt kicked for so many motorcycle deaths in his distict, and a knee jerk reaction to save face.

red mermaid

20th June 2010, 18:23

But then the police have proven from inspections of HMV's that it can have an effect, and reduce the crash rate.

Katman

20th June 2010, 18:25

More likely some top cop in Nelson has had his butt kicked for so many motorcycle deaths in his distict, and a knee jerk reaction to save face.

When in fact it should be the motorcyclists that have their butts kicked for dying in throngs.

duckonin

20th June 2010, 18:31

...surely with so many bikes on the road the crash rate would rise.

Why should this be so Genie ?

Coldrider

20th June 2010, 18:35

When in fact it should be the motorcyclists that have their butts kicked for dying in throngs.While they are dying or after they're dead ?

Katman

20th June 2010, 18:36

While they are dying or after they're dead ?

I'm easy. <hgvhgvhjv>

Coldrider

20th June 2010, 18:38

Either way it is too late to find out why they wanted to give up motorbikes.

Ixion

20th June 2010, 18:46

LOL Feedom - yup that's wot we has in good ole NZ alright...

Not a lot. And thyat only at the price of ceasless vigilance. But, a hell of a lot more than we'd have if people like the scaley gentlewoman had their way.

Ixion

20th June 2010, 18:49

Understand all this , but the flange are not stopping individual groups of people, they are targetting a certain type of motor vehicle. They even have special areas for trucks.
Motor vehicles don't have rights, and nor can they read. It is no secret that there is a campaign here targetting motorcycles.
Its not personal, there is a problem and they are trying to fix it.

There's a problem with child abuse , too. And it's statistically more prevalent amongst Maoris. So, on the basis that it's fine to ignore the law if there's "a problem" do you support police and CYPS raiding Maori peoples' houses (only Maoris, mind) to check on the kids ?

Ixion

20th June 2010, 18:59

And now you are making up that we have a constitution?

Oh , yes , indeed we do. Defined , as Mr DavidReid has perspiciously noted, in the Constitution Act 1986. And it's predecessor , Constitution Act 1852. Y'see it's been around for a little while .

Parliament thinks we have a constitution, too. Read about it at http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/AC9829DF-32D8-4569-A672-FFEFA2BC6278/6641/2005Constitutionupdate1.pdf

It's what gives validity to the laws that Parliament passes. The real laws, not the ones you make up on the back of your ticket book

Are you claiming that you've never heard of it? You should have, it's your job to know the law. Better go see Sarge again. More training required. Cos , even though you don't see any need to know the laws parliament passes, on account of you make up your own to suit, thing is that judges may not know about your laws.

So, let's see. So far, in this thread alone, you've denied the validity of the Human Rights Act, the Bill of Rights (let alone the real Bill of Rights), and the constitution.

So, basically, as you go about your duties as a cop, you are ignoring peoples human rights, their civil rights, and the law . Only one other organisation I know of goes that far, and thats the Klu Klux Klan. Don't happen to have a white sheet hanging the wardrobe , do you?

What other Klan principles do you and NZ Police put into practice , pray tell?

red mermaid

20th June 2010, 19:24

To quote from the Pdf, you have quoted;

New Zealand does not have a “written constitution” which has the status of superior law, governing all other law and requiring procedures (such as binding referenda or a two thirds majority in the legislature) for amendment1.
New Zealand is one of only three countries in the world which do not have a written constitution,

Genie

20th June 2010, 19:26

Ixion

20th June 2010, 19:48

well there you go, learn something new everyday!

No. You don't . Because the scaley gentlewoman is doing her usual tricks of leaving out the important bit.

The passage she has quoted goes on to say (very next sentence). My emphasis .

However, like those countries, New Zealand does have a constitution. It is composed of some documents together with various unwritten components including the common law and conventions.

A typical example of how she (and the police in general, all too often) pervert the law .

Still want to claim that New Zealand doesn't have a constitution , madam? . In defiance of the law, and of Parliament? Remember, this isn't some poor truck driver you're bullying. You can't make up for stupidity and ignorance by abuse of power here.

Woodman

20th June 2010, 19:58

There's a problem with child abuse , too. And it's statistically more prevalent amongst Maoris. So, on the basis that it's fine to ignore the law if there's "a problem" do you support police and CYPS raiding Maori peoples' houses (only Maoris, mind) to check on the kids ?

Like I said, they are targetting a vehicle type not a person. With child abuse they are targetting child abuse through various publicity campaigns/educational campaigns etc.
Same strategy really.

Actually I do support cyps and police raiding the houses of people responsible for child abuse, as long as their is some evidence, and if there are more raids on a certain type of people then so be it. Just like stastically more motorcyclists get injured than car drivers.

jahrasti

20th June 2010, 20:02

No. You don't . Because the scaley gentlewoman is doing her usual tricks of leaving out the important bit.

The passage she has quoted goes on to say (very next sentence). My emphasis .

A typical example of how she (and the police in general, all too often) pervert the law .

Still want to claim that New Zealand doesn't have a constitution , madam? . In defiance of the law, and of Parliament? Remember, this isn't some poor truck driver you're bullying. You can't make up for stupidity and ignorance by abuse of power here.

So by your own admission you are saying that truck drivers are poor and easily bullied?

Genestho

20th June 2010, 20:06

So by your own admission you are saying that truck drivers are poor and easily bullied?
And that women are scaley and gentle???:confused::chase:

Woodman

20th June 2010, 20:14

Pardon my ignorance, but....... Who the fcuk is the scaley gentlewoman????

Genie

20th June 2010, 20:21

I presume that would be Red Mermaid...

now back to this blitz...

at least they are being proactive and having a good look at this and yeah, if they pull me over (should I ever get on my bike again) then i'll know they care

:sick:

Katman

20th June 2010, 20:24

Pardon my ignorance, but....... Who the fcuk is the scaley gentlewoman????

You don't want to enter Ixion's psyche.

:wacko:

Woodman

20th June 2010, 20:28

You don't want to enter Ixion's psyche.

:wacko:

I don't want to enter any part of ixion........

Just remebered that my bike isn't registered. Bloody Blitz is unfair.

miloking

20th June 2010, 20:44

When in fact it should be the motorcyclists that have their butts kicked for dying in throngs.

We are allowed to die in throngs its our lives not yours!...when will you morons finaly understand that there is a thing called "free will" so yes its up to the authorities to educate novice motorcyclists to keep as safe as possible but not to discriminate all riders because of this!

miloking

20th June 2010, 20:48

Pardon my ignorance, but....... Who the fcuk is the scaley gentlewoman????

Umm i understand...its not that hard to figure out

Scaley=snakes are scaley...so must be traffic police

Gentlewoman=probably Paula Rose or Judith Collins or both :)

Am i right Ixion.lol

scumdog

20th June 2010, 20:51

We are allowed to die in throngs its our lives not yours!...when will you morons finaly understand that there is a thing called "free will" so yes its up to the authorities to educate novice motorcyclists to keep as safe as possible but not to discriminate all riders because of this!

Yep, bang up the ACC levy to pay for the deaths I say..free will/ costly injuries and deaths

miloking

20th June 2010, 21:00

Yep, bang up the ACC levy to pay for the deaths I say..free will/ costly injuries and deaths

Bulllshit and you know it scummy....ACC levies going up are highly unjustified (since we know stats presented were just lies and included farm vehicles, MX bikes, crashes caused by cars etc) also they have nothing to do with more motorcycle related accidents in Tasman District

....the fact is its just nice place to ride so there is more bikers there, therefore more chance of accidents.

The truth is ...this is a major inconveniece to local police so they decided to discourage people from all over NZ to ride there by this blitz and disguise it as "we care for your safety" bullshit!

LBD

20th June 2010, 21:04

While they are dying or after they're dead ?

Flogging a dead horse type thing?

Yep, bang up the ACC levy to pay for the deaths I say..free will/ costly injuries and deaths

Correct me if I am wrong but I did not think AAC pay for deaths, only injuries?

Katman

20th June 2010, 21:04

We are allowed to die in throngs its our lives not yours!...when will you morons finaly understand that there is a thing called "free will" so yes its up to the authorities to educate novice motorcyclists to keep as safe as possible but not to discriminate all riders because of this!

When your actions impact upon my motorcycling freedom then you can go fuck yourself.

miloking

20th June 2010, 21:06

When your actions impact upon my motorcycling freedom then you can go fuck yourself.

Ohh so sorry ...because i have died so many times already to ruin your motorcycling! WFT is your logic?

ALSO

Its now about "your motorcycling" and not our collective safety????? get your story straight guys...

Genestho

20th June 2010, 21:26

Correct me if I am wrong but I did not think AAC pay for deaths, only injuries?
Yes ACC do payout for deaths, case by case basis, was going to link to details but the site's down. Can't even access the "getting help after someone dies from an injury" publication.

Basically a funeral grant upto $5000
One off survivors grant for spouse
One off survivors grant for dependants

Weekly compensation for both (60%) spouse and (20%) children either upto 5 years or until children leave home or turn 18.
Like I say it is case by case.

ukusa

20th June 2010, 21:51

I fail to see how pulling up riders & checking wof & rego will keep them safe. Another load of pc bullshit made up by some wanker behind a desk with nothing better to do.
I'm one of the so called "mid life crisis" blokes. How many years back on the road am I supposed to do before I'm not labelled? Is there a number that some wanker sitting behind a desk has made up for this too?
The fact is people will die, our roads are shit quality, and some riders.drivers are either not very good, are very loose & don't give a toss, or both.
Me, I've done 20,000 kms on road in the last 3 years + countless hours on a dirtbike. On top is the 10 years previous riding experience, never had an off (dirtbike excluded, but that's part of the fun), no speeding tickets on a road bike and I'm still labeled as some sort of novice having a mid life crisis.
They can go fuck themselves.
Cops telling us to ride safe will never save lives, it's like telling a drunk not to drink more.

Ragingrob

20th June 2010, 22:11

miloking

20th June 2010, 22:24

Don't have a problem with cops pulling people over for no direct reason at all, as long as they're doing it with a friendly and positive attitude. If people don't have a license or a road-worthy vehicle then too right they should be getting the fuck off the public road.

Funnily enough..there was no mention that those who died on those roads in past year ...didnt have WOFed bikes and licences.

So their reasons for "random" checks only on motorcyclists must be something else....hmmm what could it be? Try to guess...

Woodman

20th June 2010, 22:51

Funnily enough..there was no mention that those who died on those roads in past year ...didnt have WOFed bikes and licences.

So their reasons for "random" checks only on motorcyclists must be something else....hmmm what could it be? Try to guess...

Look I understand that you think the Police are picking on you just so you can't have fun, but can you please tell me what you would do if the roads you patrolled had a higher than average accident rate.

There seems to be an element here on KB that just seem to hate the Police. Shit maybe the cops come on here and think that attitudes like yours are representative of all motorcyclists.

They aren't by the way.

Toaster

20th June 2010, 22:58

Absolute rubbish, as there is already a group in the police that in the majority stop and inspect only one type of vehicle.

This tactic is simply targetting to risk.
Motorcycle riders in Tasman district have shown from the fatal crash stats to be an at risk group, so they have made themselves a group to be checked for compliance.

Exactly right. It was complete rubbish that was quoted and you a right on the money. Police a acting in a fair manner to help people get things right with their bikes, licences, WOF, roadworthiness etc - all necessary and good stuff aimed at safer riding.

NONE of us want more bikers to die and it is good to see responsive proactive policing trying to prevent more of OUR deaths and injury.

What as individuals do you now do to reduce the chances of your death or injury on the roads? As the signs say, enjoy the ride, not the race.

Real racers go to the track, where it belongs.

Ride safe this Winter.

miloking

20th June 2010, 23:01

Look I understand that you think the Police are picking on you just so you can't have fun, but can you please tell me what you would do if the roads you patrolled had a higher than average accident rate.

There seems to be an element here on KB that just seem to hate the Police. Shit maybe the cops come on here and think that attitudes like yours are representative of all motorcyclists.

They aren't by the way.

Yeah you are right, if i was a cop and my "patrol area" had a high accident rate because its popular destination for motorcyclists...i would also make it extremely unpleasant place to ride just so those damn aucklanders go back to where they belong! Is it what you meant?

Because checking WOFs and Regos is not going to save any lives and we all know it!

most of those bikes will be quite expensive cruisers since they are riden by "middle aged men" as per local policemens comment...so they are likely all WOFed and excuse that they are checking "roadworthiness" just doesnt fly....

(BTW this has nothing to do with my personal disgust for police...i only agree with the rest of bikers that are also quite outraged by this "blitz")

Ragingrob

20th June 2010, 23:11

miloking

20th June 2010, 23:12

I dunno? You tell me? No problem if you're not doing anything illegal so what's the angst?

Let me spell it to you ...new "R.E.G.O F.E.E.S" but quite likely the reasons are even worse...to make it unpopular place to ride because local cops dont want it to be "their" problem anymore...thats what all the "middle aged" comments indicate.

Ragingrob

20th June 2010, 23:15

Let me spell it to you ...new "R.E.G.O F.E.E.S"

Yeah and? I guess if you haven't paid it then it'd be a bummer huh. It's obviously not the reason for the blitz as why would they go out the month of the fee hike, it ain't as if everybody's rego just expired and people have had to fork out the new levy!

miloking

20th June 2010, 23:19

Yeah and? I guess if you haven't paid it then it'd be a bummer huh. It's obviously not the reason for the blitz as why would they go out the month of the fee hike, it ain't as if everybody's rego just expired and people have had to fork out the new levy!

Umm..did you read the article at all?

"90" day blitz starting now... so there about right time for regos to start expiring and people putting them on hold...as promised during protests! (also 90 days can easily become 190 days but they expect to have it sorted by then..just before summer)

And no i havent paid and wont...but iam from auckland,so iam safe right? wrong! ... it seems that you are all fucking so shortsighted, what happens in Nelson can happily happen everywhere else....

Just like saying "why protest ACC fees now" as its too late....forgeting that they will try to put them up again within two years to the amount Mr.Smith originaly wanted...but by then all the morons with attention spans of gold fish will forget that regos just went up last year.

HenryDorsetCase

20th June 2010, 23:26

I listened to the radio today and started ranting about fascism. So I turned off the radio. But its still fascism.

Ragingrob

20th June 2010, 23:30

Umm..did you read the article at all?

"90" day blitz starting now... so there about right time for regos to start expiring and people putting them on hold...as promised during protests! (also 90 days can easily become 190 days but they expect to have it sorted by then..just before summer)

And no i havent paid and wont...but iam from auckland,so iam safe right? wrong! ... it seems that you are all fucking so shortsighted, what happens in Nelson can happily happen everywhere else....

Just like saying "why protest ACC fees now" as its too late....forgeting that they will try to put them up again within two years to the amount Mr.Smith originaly wanted...but by then all the morons with attention spans of gold fish will forget that regos just went up last year.

I also read about the number of deaths in the area at the motorcyclist's own fault... Hmmm I'd probably prefer people having to pay fines than dying but hey that's me :)

miloking

20th June 2010, 23:32

I also read about the number of deaths in the area at the motorcyclist's own fault... Hmmm I'd probably prefer people having to pay fines than dying but hey that's me :)

I would prefer that too!!! but they need to target right things...and paying fines is not going to save lives.

BTW seems i didnt read the article properly myself..i realy was under impression its 90 days but the stuff article actualy says 100 day blitz...

sinfull

20th June 2010, 23:38

I would prefer that too!!! but they need to target right things...and paying fines is not going to save lives.

BTW seems i didnt read the article properly myself..i realy was under impression its 90 days but the stuff article actualy says 100 day blitz...
Raise your protest with one better !

Ragingrob

20th June 2010, 23:39

miloking

20th June 2010, 23:51

K what are the right things to target? If the riders are killing themselves, then how can it be targeted without pulling the riders over?

Ok why do you think riders die? (or have serious accidents)

Most accidents that are not caused by other vehicles and are "fault" of the rider are caused by enviromental factors like road condition,visibility etc and some are purely due to lack of skill or rider error...

Now tell me how is pulling only bikers over going to stop all the reasons above?

Is the officer also going to magicaly teach all the pulled over bikers all the needed skills in those 10 minutes while giving them ticket for no rego???

So things to target should be....

improving road condtions or at least signpost hazardous areas, (not like coro loop where there are patches of fresh gravel all over with no "road works" signs to be seen) and then of course biker education...for those ones starting up fresh or coming back to motorcycling after many years. (by this i mean what many organisations are doing already quite effectively)

And rest is up to people themselves...some things are just fate also!

Berries

20th June 2010, 23:53

I'm one of the so called "mid life crisis" blokes. How many years back on the road am I supposed to do before I'm not labelled? Is there a number that some wanker sitting behind a desk has made up for this too?
Eight.

10 chars

Ragingrob

21st June 2010, 00:04

Ok why do you think riders die? (or have serious accidents)

Most accidents that are not caused by other vehicles and are "fault" of the rider are caused by enviromental factors like road condition,visibility etc and some are purely due to lack of skill or rider error...

Now tell me how is pulling only bikers over going to stop all the reasons above?

Is the officer also going to magicaly teach all the pulled over bikers all the needed skills in those 10 minutes while giving them ticket for no rego???

So things to target should be....

improving road condtions or at least signpost hazardous areas, (not like coro loop where there are patches of fresh gravel all over with no "road works" signs to be seen) and then of course biker education...for those ones stating up fresh or coming back to motorcycling after many years. (by this i mean what many organisations are doing already quite effectively)

And rest is up to people themselves...some things are just fate also!

Well if the riders were riding to those conditions such as low visibility then they wouldn't crash the majority of the time. So even if the road is shit the rider would be to blame unless it's a situation such as coming around a blind corner onto a big patch of diesel.

I know that roads aren't the best and can lead to crashes, and that NZ doesn't put enough funding into decent roads etc etc... But a 100 day "blitz" of coppers just checking peoples licenses etc ain't the end of the world. That's just like saying all drink driving stops are a scam.

sinfull

21st June 2010, 00:10

Well if the riders were riding to those conditions such as low visibility then they wouldn't crash the majority of the time. So even if the road is shit the rider would be to blame unless it's a situation such as coming around a blind corner onto a big patch of diesel.

I know that roads aren't the best and can lead to crashes, and that NZ doesn't put enough funding into decent roads etc etc... But a 100 day "blitz" of coppers just checking peoples licenses etc ain't the end of the world. That's just like saying all drink driving stops are a scam.
Mate, The cops are at a loss as to how to stop the carnage ! Only thing they aint tried is re-educating riders, so all they have is presence ! Try an slow em down with phsychological crap ! Cops at a loss, we know it's education, why don't the gubberment ?

ukusa

21st June 2010, 00:14

Yeah and? I guess if you haven't paid it then it'd be a bummer huh. It's obviously not the reason for the blitz as why would they go out the month of the fee hike, it ain't as if everybody's rego just expired and people have had to fork out the new levy!

so if it's not the reason, explain to us dumbasses how a roadside wof & rego check will somehow save lives. Here's a question for you, how many of the recent motorcycle deaths in the Marlborough area involved bikes with no wof/reg?

I have a wof & a rego, and it wouldn't worry me getting pulled over & checked either, but you're on another planet if you think the checks will save lives.

Ragingrob

21st June 2010, 00:15

Mate, The cops are at a loss as to how to stop the carnage ! Only thing they aint tried is re-educating riders, so all they have is presence ! Try an slow em down with phsychological crap ! Cops at a loss, we know it's education, why don't the gubberment ?

Yeah so the same people complaining about the blitzing of cops causing fines etc and funding the govt will be complaining about having to pay for education and licensing they don't think they need either. Why do I know the dangers of riding etc and manage to navigate my way thus far without killing myself, when so many people don't? Education must be out there somewhere but at the moment it's a choice as to whether someone takes part in it or not. I hear that people don't like their choices being taken away!

sinfull

21st June 2010, 00:19

Yeah so the same people complaining about the blitzing of cops causing fines etc and funding the govt will be complaining about having to pay for education and licensing they don't think they need either. Why do I know the dangers of riding etc and manage to navigate my way thus far without killing myself, when so many people don't? Education must be out there somewhere but at the moment it's a choice as to whether someone takes part in it or not. I hear that people don't like their choices being taken away!
No ! And your right i don't want my choices taken away ! But put me on a course that would challenge me and i'd pay you to do it !!!!!!!!!!
Hello, wanna start something here or should we leave it to the radicals ?

miloking

21st June 2010, 00:19

Well if the riders were riding to those conditions such as low visibility then they wouldn't crash the majority of the time. So even if the road is shit the rider would be to blame unless it's a situation such as coming around a blind corner onto a big patch of diesel.

I know that roads aren't the best and can lead to crashes, and that NZ doesn't put enough funding into decent roads etc etc... But a 100 day "blitz" of coppers just checking peoples licenses etc ain't the end of the world. That's just like saying all drink driving stops are a scam.

I agree with you regarding the essential rider skills consist of knowing the limits of not just yourself but also the bike and the road etc

..and that "blitz" isnt end of the world in the scale of things.

...but its still quite retarded thing to do expecting it will lower biker accidents and its still a discrimination against minority.

Ragingrob

21st June 2010, 00:19

so if it's not the reason, explain to us dumbasses how a roadside wof & rego check will somehow save lives. Here's a question for you, how many of the recent motorcycle deaths in the Marlborough area involved bikes with no wof/reg?

I have a wof & a rego, and it wouldn't worry me getting pulled over & checked either, but you're on another planet if you think the checks will save lives.

I'm not saying that they'll save lives, I'm saying they won't ruin them! But a higher police presence in general should play a positive part in road safety I'd think, yes.

"This would enable officers to ascertain the rider's licence status, check their vehicle for road safety compliance, and pass on the message to take care on the roads."

As I said, if they're doing this with the right attitude then good on them.

miloking

21st June 2010, 00:26

As I said, if they're doing this with the right attitude then good on them.

Let hope they do! ....i hope they wont start their conversation with pulled over biker by saying things like "we are sick and tired of motorcyclists killing themselves here" or "we are sick and tired of you middle aged fucks coming down here and making us look bad" etc.

Ragingrob

21st June 2010, 00:30

No ! And your right i don't want my choices taken away ! But put me on a course that would challenge me and i'd pay you to do it !!!!!!!!!!
Hello, wanna start something here or should we leave it to the radicals ?

Hmmm well there's the Ride Right Ride Safe course, which has a pretty good rep and seems quite good for riders of all levels. And then there's also the Advance Rider Training days, dunno much about them but learning about yourself and your bike on a track must do a hell of good.

sinfull

21st June 2010, 00:32

I'm not saying that they'll save lives, I'm saying they won't ruin them! But a higher police presence in general should play a positive part in road safety I'd think, yes.

"This would enable officers to ascertain the rider's licence status, check their vehicle for road safety compliance, and pass on the message to take care on the roads."

As I said, if they're doing this with the right attitude then good on them.
Well put ! Message to some would be "like to ask you to take it slow on these here roads ! You may or may not have read the article on stuff, where stats show the born again crew are killing themselves on our unforgiving roads" " you ride safe now " !

Or some of the gayer few may take it as "we're here to fuck you over, gimme some attitude you shit head biker scum" !

whichever way it's taken there is/will be a presence and it may save lives Pfffft !

miloking

21st June 2010, 00:33

Hmmm well there's the Ride Right Ride Safe course, which has a pretty good rep and seems quite good for riders of all levels. And then there's also the Advance Rider Training days, dunno much about them but learning about yourself and your bike on a track must do a hell of good.

Trackdays are great way to learn about yourself and the bike not to mention awesome amount of fun... the only problem is that some people think they are Rossi after attending some and then take it to the road :D

sinfull

21st June 2010, 00:43

Trackdays are great way to learn about yourself and the bike not to mention awesome amount of fun... the only problem is that some people think they are Rossi after attending some and then take it to the road :D Now your talking !

There has been a number of debates on this subject for numerous years ! think you will find that after a few, you wont want to ride road anymore ! Too many cops aye Ross !

Look ! No matter how you look at it, we're all in much the same mind ! Those that controll these actions have no real idea how to stem the flow of riders who seem hell bent on cutting themselves under the current laws !

You wanna make noise, lets make noise and petition gubberment to change the laws re licencing ???
I'm happy to take riders out and have them slide on a padock, build a wall of doom so they know how falling off feels ! Soon pick the crash test dummies out and put a X by their name too !

miloking

21st June 2010, 00:55

think you will find that after a few, you wont want to ride road anymore ! Too many cops aye Ross !

So true ;) its kind of like going 120km/h and then coming to 50k zone....feels realy slow, only after trackday 120km/h feels realy slow, haha

I do ride much less on the road these days...its not as much fun anymore, because if I realy did what i actualy wanted i would definately be arrested already.

Only wish there were trackdays over winter...never uderstood why there isnt enough demand for them, only in summer.

You wanna make noise, lets make noise and petition gubberment to change the laws re licencing ???
I'm happy to take riders out and have them slide on a padock, build a wall of doom so they know how falling off feels ! Soon pick the crash test dummies out and put a X by their name too !

Hmm compulsory track day with your full licence...i dont think it would be bad idea at all, or compulsory MX day so you know what falling of a bike feels like....

Actualy it doesnt even need to be compuslory, just recommended or subsidised (hey that would be good way to spend some of that ACC fund that collects 3million a year from bikers that Ixion was talking about..)

ACC could run those track days and provide on site education as well....ohh well, dreaming is free i guess...

onearmedbandit

21st June 2010, 01:17

Come to Christchurch. Only about $100 for any Tuesday or Friday at Ruapuna. Half that if you're a member of the Canterbury Car Club.

sinfull

21st June 2010, 01:20

So true ;) its kind of like going 120km/h and then coming to 50k zone....feels realy slow, only after trackday 120km/h feels realy slow, haha

I do ride much less on the road these days...its not as much fun anymore, because if I realy did what i actualy wanted i would definately be arrested already.
I do what i want Milo !
I do my best not to be caught doing something i maybe want to, but society says i cant ! But i wont cry on your shoulder if my bike gets taken off me ! You may bag HD's but mine has slowed me down to a cruising speed of 120 and (maybe my dick has got bigger but) i'm enjoying it ! I aint even mounted my radar on the HD, cops (yes them scum of the earth that all want to kill you and take your licence off you) now flash their headlights at me and point, rather than throw their lights on and do a dangerous U turn to chase me ! Wow perhaps i've saved lives by buying an HD ?
I dont care !~ (of course i'm talking about me and the Mrs out riding lol) Every day i'm a different persona, yes i'm drinkin, but all my friends are online with me ! I just don't take them out anymore !

Might break the speed triple out for a hoon soon ! A ride up to taupo and whip the detector off, ask Sue to look after it for me and thrash the fucker round the track sounds great ! Or i might jump the ditch and ride the top of the south .
If i'm stopped i might have one of two things to say, one might be "On ya mate, cheers for the heads up, i will take it easy then and yes it has been 20 years since i rode these roads"

Or i might sulk and say "fuckin detector" !

But i wont say fuckin cops shouldn't be there !

sinfull

21st June 2010, 01:39

Aint there football on in twenty minutes or am i alll alone here ? You would think there might be a pom or two that would like to discuss this for another few minutes at least aye ! Awwww come onnnnn entertain a dutchman !

miloking

21st June 2010, 02:07

Come to Christchurch. Only about $100 for any Tuesday or Friday at Ruapuna. Half that if you're a member of the Canterbury Car Club.

Yeah, i would for sure but they wont let me take my blade as "carry on" on the plane :) ... ohh how i miss kiwitrackdays...

miloking

21st June 2010, 02:22

I do what i want Milo !
I do my best not to be caught doing something i maybe want to, but society says i cant ! But i wont cry on your shoulder if my bike gets taken off me ! You may bag HD's but mine has slowed me down to a cruising speed of 120 and (maybe my dick has got bigger but) i'm enjoying it ! I aint even mounted my radar on the HD, cops (yes them scum of the earth that all want to kill you and take your licence off you) now flash their headlights at me and point, rather than throw their lights on and do a dangerous U turn to chase me ! Wow perhaps i've saved lives by buying an HD ?
I dont care !~ (of course i'm talking about me and the Mrs out riding lol) Every day i'm a different persona, yes i'm drinkin, but all my friends are online with me ! I just don't take them out anymore !

Might break the speed triple out for a hoon soon ! A ride up to taupo and whip the detector off, ask Sue to look after it for me and thrash the fucker round the track sounds great ! Or i might jump the ditch and ride the top of the south .
If i'm stopped i might have one of two things to say, one might be "On ya mate, cheers for the heads up, i will take it easy then and yes it has been 20 years since i rode these roads"

Or i might sulk and say "fuckin detector" !

But i wont say fuckin cops shouldn't be there !

I get your sentiment....each time i am riding bit faster than i should i remember wise words i've heard once "dont race it if you are not prepared to loose it" so i know the bike can be taken off me anytime for my stupidity
...i also mostly ride alone so iam not responsible for anyone or dont get in to the pack mentality which always brings the worst i me.
Probably not ready for HD yet, not sure i every will be into the cruiser thing...but who knows.

And i dont hate cops for doing their job and trying to stop me for doing retarded stuff...
but i hate when they assume i am just another "evil biker" just because iam sitting on a motorcycle, and dont appreaciate being treated like a scum for it....but i guess i also think most cops are scum so its only fair :)

miloking

21st June 2010, 02:24

sinfull

21st June 2010, 02:31

1:0 ....doin good so far, we shall see how long before they run out of steam!If you hold my shirt i will fall over and cost you a goal ! Now know why i dont watch this shit !

sinfull

21st June 2010, 02:52

Well all i can say is the south island police are being more proactive than the all whites are ! Move it on up !!!

miloking

21st June 2010, 04:01

If you hold my shirt i will fall over and cost you a goal ! Now know why i dont watch this shit !

Ohh well it seems that cost us victory against world champions :(

sinfull

21st June 2010, 04:03

We are the world champions ! ?

miloking

21st June 2010, 04:07

We are the world champions ! ?

italy was :) but as far iam concerned all whites could be as well now...

HenryDorsetCase

21st June 2010, 09:27

Come to Christchurch. Only about $100 for any Tuesday or Friday at Ruapuna. Half that if you're a member of the Canterbury Car Club.

or Motorcycling Canterbury

Roadsafe Nelson

21st June 2010, 14:16

HenryDorsetCase

21st June 2010, 14:28

As I said, if they're doing this with the right attitude then good on them.

You could cut some slack to the poor old po po who has to pull you over because of this misguided direction from on high. Of course the "we're only following orders" defence didnt work and shouldn't work at Nuremberg, and shouldn't be accepted here.

Lets just get this straight: A reasonable, responsible tax and rate paying citizen, out and about on a perfectly legitemate recreational activity can be expected to be pulled over, harassed, and in fact targeted for harassment, based only on their preferred recreational vehicle: and some of you are OK with that? What the hell?. It is outright fascism, nothing more or less.

So no matter what their attitude is, they're wrong.

Ixion

21st June 2010, 14:45

Worse, once stopped (based on vehicle choice), the degree of harassment apparently depnds on your age and gender. That loud Gah, thunk is the Human Rights Commissioner having a conniption fit

Though I think that it could be done legally and approriately.

Instead of "Officer Bumblebee, I hates them bloody middleaged Jafas coming down here on their bloody motorbikes, and crashing, making me have to fill in lots of paperwork, and my stats look bad. Make sure you harrass their arses off, so they don't come back",

one could have "Officer Bumblebee, please stop any motorcyclists that may not be familiar with our roads and explain that , whilst we are very pleased to see them enjoying our wonderful roads, said roads can be a bit tricky, and some people have recently come to grief. And offer assistance and advice to faciliate their having a happy and safe motorcycling experience".

Same result, very different appraoch. the latter is entirely legal and appropriate IMHO. And I must state that I am not entirely clear where on a spectrum between those two attitudes the actual events in Nelson fall.

fossil

21st June 2010, 14:58

"Whilst out riding with friends a couple of months ago, we were pulled over at one such checkpoint in the Whangamoas (heading towards Blenheim). Motorcyclists were taken to the side, our rego/wof/riding gear & licences were checked. Bottled water & refreshments were offered.

In attendance at the checkpoint were a variety of people. The Police, The Tasman District Council & the local Nelson Injury Prevention Office for ACC. They were interested in collecting information from the motorcyclists stopped, on what our concerns were when riding on the road.. eg: gravel/road works & lack of signage, other road users, road conditions etc. Feedback from this collected information is to be handed onto the relevant organisations concerned.. eg: roading companies

As a result of the information collected a flier has just been released locally with relevant contact details available for motorcyclists to contact & raise their concerns to.

To note.. ALL traffic was stopped at this checkpoint & ALL licence's/rego & wofs were checked, not just motorcyclists.

Feedback I heard from the TDC was that a very high proportion of the bikers stopped were correctly licenced & had current rego/wofs.. & were wearing appropriate gear.

Personally I felt heard & respected by the people conducting the checkpoint."

This was from post #23 on this thread.
Ixion,You really do need to stop listening to your own publicity and spiel. It is no wonder that the message gets lost in the Bronz translation most of the time.

Ixion

21st June 2010, 15:06

Big, big difference.

From the post you quoted

To note.. ALL traffic was stopped at this checkpoint & ALL licence's/rego & wofs were checked, not just motorcyclists.

Whereas the newspaper reprot definately implies ONLY bikes (granted, that may be journalistic licence).But "police would be asked to spend 15 minutes of their shift time to stop and check motorcycle and moped riders." seems pretty clear on bikes only.

Just occured to me, also, - mopeds? How many of these evil baby-raping crashing middleaged returning riders are on MOPEDS FFS ? That seems to make his whole attitude pretty suss. Looks a lot more like just an anto-two-wheeler crusade.

CookMySock

21st June 2010, 16:02

My 17 y/o kid (class 1,6) regularly gets stopped by the fuzz and gone over with the fine tooth comb. He enjoys smirking at them as they go through his docs and find him squeaky clean. :niceone:

Steve

Roadsafe Nelson

21st June 2010, 16:20

Just occured to me, also, - mopeds? How many of these evil baby-raping crashing middleaged returning riders are on MOPEDS FFS ? That seems to make his whole attitude pretty suss. Looks a lot more like just an anto-two-wheeler crusade.

Crikey Ixion.. settle pettle.. before you pop a fu fu.. step away from the computer.. breathe.. & have a nice cup of tea...

This is the local Police in little ole Nelson we're talking about.. not the firing squad in central Ak

My Roadsafe posters, brochures & cards are in the local Police stations.. & riders are being made aware of training opportunities at the check points.

The traffic Police here know me & support me 100% with traffic management for the Rescue Helicopter Charity Ride I organise. They are not a bunch of biker haters! & this is not a witch hunt! several of them ride bikes themselves.

Yes, bikers are going to be getting pulled over & their bikes, rego,wof, licences etc checked.. but if you are all licenced correctly, you ride responsibly, & you take responsibility for yourself & your actions instead of all out blaming other people for accidents.. then what have you got to worry about!

red mermaid

21st June 2010, 16:25

I think he may have been sniffing his expense account at BRONZ too closely and its all gone to his head.

Crikey Ixion.. settle pettle.. before you pop a fu fu.. step away from the computer.. breathe.. & have a nice cup of tea...

This is the local Police in little ole Nelson we're talking about.. not the firing squad in central Ak

My Roadsafe posters, brochures & cards are in the local Police stations.. & riders are being made aware of training opportunities at the check points.

The traffic Police here know me & support me 100% with traffic management for the Rescue Helicopter Charity Ride I organise. They are not a bunch of biker haters! & this is not a witch hunt! several of them ride bikes themselves.

Yes, bikers are going to be getting pulled over & their bikes, rego,wof, licences etc checked.. but if you are all licenced correctly, you ride responsibly, & you take responsibility for yourself & your actions instead of all out blaming other people for accidents.. then what have you got to worry about!

Ixion

21st June 2010, 16:45

.. Yes, bikers are going to be getting pulled over & their bikes, rego,wof, licences etc checked.. but if you are all licenced correctly, you ride responsibly, & you take responsibility for yourself & your actions instead of all out blaming other people for accidents.. then what have you got to worry about!

Now I am worried. Whenever anyone comes up with the "if you're doing nothing wrong what have you to worry about" line you know that somebody's liberty is in danger.

I remember a previous cop, Gideon Tait.

Here's a quote of his tactics
I saturated the place with tough cops. I told them to concentrate on drink. Book them if they showed signs of drunkenness; watch for motorbikes in an unsafe mechanical condition. The tactic was to keep at them and force them out of town. Drink won't work now, so subsitute licences. Sounds familiar.

I also remember the effect that these campaigns had on the ordinary mortorcyclist. It was common to be refused service at gas stations or shops in smaller towns . The locals had been briefed by the local police .

Sometimes groups of motorcyclists, not gangs , just friends out for a ride, would be stopped on the outskirts of towns and told to turn back the way they came. Or else. Riders (once again, just ordinary motorcyclists not gang members) would be stopped , sometimes a dozen times in a day. The interrogations (that is the only term suitable) were prolonged , threatening and aggressive. Calculated to try to elict a response, which could then justify an arrest.

So, that's what I have to fear.

Sure, that's not happening in Nelson, now. Not now. How about next month, or next year ?

Oh, and Mr Tait also had his problems with cops who symapthised with bikers

There was also a tendency for some of the immature police and traffic officers to become too friendly with the goons on the bikes He soon put a stop to that.

How many of the Nelson crashes have involved mopeds, anyway?

dipshit

21st June 2010, 17:01

Now I am worried.

This is what Ixion is worried about... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/124732-Are-you-registering-your-bike?p=1129786007#post1129786007

Roadsafe Nelson

21st June 2010, 17:01

Now I am worried. Whenever anyone comes up with the "if you're doing nothing wrong what have you to worry about" line you know that somebody's liberty is in danger. I remember a previous cop, Gideon Tait. Here's a quote of his tactics

Personally I feel you are blowing this way out of proportion. Remember, I live in Nelson & I deal with several of these people quite regularly, they are not who you are trying to make them out to be. I am out on the bike nearly every day.. so I will be keeping an eye out on how things go when these checks all start happening & I will report back with my findings & observations ok.

I also remember the effect that these campaigns had on the ordinary mortorcyclist. It was common to be refused service at gas stations or shops in smaller towns . Sometimes groups of motorcyclists, not gangs , just friends out for a ride, would be stopped on the outskirts of towns and told to turn back the way they came. Or else. Riders (once again, just ordinary motorcyclists not gang members) would be stopped , sometimes a dozen times in a day. The interrogations (that is the only term suitable) were prolonged , threatening and aggressive. Calculated to try to elict a response, which could then justify an arrest.

Now this is just silly Ixion ! :oi-grr:

Katman

21st June 2010, 17:03

Now this is just silly Ixion ! :oi-grr:

Get used to it.

scumdog

21st June 2010, 17:09

Now I am worried. Whenever anyone comes up with the "if you're doing nothing wrong what have you to worry about" line you know that somebody's liberty is in danger.

I also remember the effect that these campaigns had on the ordinary mortorcyclist. It was common to be refused service at gas stations or shops in smaller towns . The locals had been briefed by the local police .

Sometimes groups of motorcyclists, not gangs , just friends out for a ride, would be stopped on the outskirts of towns and told to turn back the way they came. Or else. Riders (once again, just ordinary motorcyclists not gang members) would be stopped , sometimes a dozen times in a day. The interrogations (that is the only term suitable) were prolonged , threatening and aggressive. Calculated to try to elict a response, which could then justify an arrest.
?

And what about THIS century, ??

red mermaid

21st June 2010, 17:09

jahrasti

21st June 2010, 17:22

Personally I feel you are blowing this way out of proportion. Remember, I live in Nelson & I deal with several of these people quite regularly, they are not who you are trying to make them out to be. I am out on the bike nearly every day.. so I will be keeping an eye out on how things go when these checks all start happening & I will report back with my findings & observations ok.

Now this is just silly Ixion ! :oi-grr:

He needs something to crap on about while atop his soap box.

Good on them for trying to do something proactive. I've seen idiots turn up to the track with the carcass of their tyre showing and throwing a hissy fit when told about it.

I've seen road bikes with no brakes, no brake lights (not an old bike), and needing to 'hold the revs at 3grand' to stop it dying.

People may or may not have known about the problems, but ignorance is not bliss when it comes to sharing the roads with them.

jahrasti

21st June 2010, 17:24

His silly quotes from Gideon Tait would be selective ones from the book Tait published in the 1970's about the gang problem in NZ of that time.

Hardly an applicable comparison.
One was a public order problem, the other is a road safety problem.

Must have taken a real big sniff from his BRONZ expense account...be ready for the subs to go up!

You now need to crap on about selective quotes and then launch into a personal attack about his profession and anything else that can be attacked.

Ixion

21st June 2010, 17:29

Personally I feel you are blowing this way out of proportion. Remember, I live in Nelson & I deal with several of these people quite regularly, they are not who you are trying to make them out to be. I am out on the bike nearly every day.. so I will be keeping an eye out on how things go when these checks all start happening & I will report back with my findings & observations ok.

Now this is just silly Ixion ! :oi-grr:

I imagine that people said much the same back in the early 70s. But I saw with my own eyes what effect it had. They that ignore history are condemned to relive it, and we have here, in our own scaley gentlewoman proof that Mr Tait's attitude is still alive and well in the police force.

However, I'm happy to take your word for the benevolence of the Nelson police. If for no other eason than that I don't live there so I can't really say what the attitude is. BTW there is no BRONZ Nelson, so jibes at BRONZ are irrelevant. If there were it would be up to them to formulate a response, if they deemed it necessary.

Big Dave

21st June 2010, 17:34

'BRONZ expense account' - good one.

paulmac

21st June 2010, 17:36

miloking

21st June 2010, 20:38

Since when in Nz are the police known as "po po" or flange !! Is this another american slang that people feel the need to adopt ? Sounds fucking stupid !
If I get a ticket it is because I have done something wrong. I know the rules and speeding, reg and wof are all something within our control,

I've heard term popo for years but localy they are more likely known as "those arrogant cunts" so thats why there might be some confusion....

And nobody said getting ticket is wrong but being pulled over for no reason or "hunch" is wrong...the end.

Woodman

21st June 2010, 20:50

You could cut some slack to the poor old po po who has to pull you over because of this misguided direction from on high. Of course the "we're only following orders" defence didnt work and shouldn't work at Nuremberg, and shouldn't be accepted here.

Lets just get this straight: A reasonable, responsible tax and rate paying citizen, out and about on a perfectly legitemate recreational activity can be expected to be pulled over, harassed, and in fact targeted for harassment, based only on their preferred recreational vehicle: and some of you are OK with that? What the hell?. It is outright fascism, nothing more or less.

So no matter what their attitude is, they're wrong.

My God you really know how to blow things way way out of proportion. The Police in conjunction with the TDC and roadsafe are trying to help ffs.

Find a decent conspiracy theory like the moon landing or something if you want to make up stuff.

BRONZ......No longer have my support sorry.

scumdog

21st June 2010, 20:55

And nobody said getting ticket is wrong but being pulled over for no reason or "hunch" is wrong...the end.

Nice troll.

Cops always find the drunk driver without any reason to stop them - or stopping them on a "hunch"....(is a hunch a safe place to stop someone?:blink:)

fossil

21st June 2010, 20:59

"However, I'm happy to take your word for the benevolence of the Nelson police. If for no other eason than that I don't live there so I can't really say what the attitude is. BTW there is no BRONZ Nelson, so jibes at BRONZ are irrelevant. If there were it would be up to them to formulate a response, if they deemed it necessary."

I am surprised there is no BRONZ in Nelson. Surely the hometown of the Minister for ACC would be a priority area to have a presence! Or is it that the locals have found that tee shirts come in colours other than black?

miloking

21st June 2010, 21:07

Nice troll.

Cops always find the drunk driver without any reason to stop them - or stopping them on a "hunch"....(is a hunch a safe place to stop someone?:blink:)

Nope, the drunk is driving erratically..so popo has suspicion that its a drunk and therefore reason to pull the person over...

Being on a bike itself is not a reason good enough to pull people over.... its just discrimination.

scumdog

21st June 2010, 21:15

Nope, the drunk is driving erratically..so popo has suspicion that its a drunk and therefore reason to pull the person over...

Mwahahaha....and how far is a cop meant to follow somebody before he can say "Ooo, his driving was erratic - NOW I can stop him!"?

(and not looking good for any new drivers/old people/tourists eh!)

TONS of drunks get pulled over well before their driving indicates they're drunk

So stop trolling

or stop being niaive/stupid........

miloking

21st June 2010, 21:29

Mwahahaha....and how far is a cop meant to follow somebody before he can say "Ooo, his driving was erratic - NOW I can stop him!"?

(and not looking good for any new drivers/old people/tourists eh!)

TONS of drunks get pulled over well before their driving indicates they're drunk

So stop trolling

or stop being niaive/stupid........

If the drunk is driving well enough that you cant spot it right away then its likely not a drunk...if somobody is twice the limit or even just bit over limit you can tell they are drunk quite easily.

And i never troll...you should know that by now :) (erm..pot meet kettle...comes to mind)

BTW funny that you mentioned that...but if new drivers/old people/turists are driving badly and you see it...you should put down your radar gun or donut or cock ..or whatever you are holding at the time and stop them and perhaps talk to them about it.

scumdog

21st June 2010, 21:32

If the drunk is driving well enough that you cant spot it right away then its likely not a drunk...if somobody is twice the limit or even just bit over limit you can tell they are drunk quite easily.

And i never troll...you should know that by now :) (erm..pot meet kettle...comes to mind)

Wow, the booze-bus guys will be snapping YOU up and ditching all those un-needed breath-testing gizmos.....:rolleyes:

Woodman

21st June 2010, 21:37

..if somobody is twice the limit or even just bit over limit you can tell they are drunk quite easily.

How?.............And if its that easy why don't the police just stand on the side of the road and wave down JUST the drunk drivers instead of spending all that dosh on booze busses etc.

And also why don't they just pick out all the bad riders instead of all of them here in Nelson.

Maybe you are right all along..............

Padmei

21st June 2010, 21:40

Wow & to think all I was gonna do was keep my head down, make sure the bike was warranted & wait till it blows over.
Man I'm naive...
BTW not seen any cops around here pulling anyone up the last week, bike or otherwise...

You really Scummy's daughter Jen?

miloking

21st June 2010, 21:41

How?.............And if its that easy why don't the police just stand on the side of the road and wave down JUST the drunk drivers instead of spending all that dosh on booze busses etc.

And also why don't they just pick out all the bad riders instead of all of them here in Nelson.

Maybe you are right all along..............

Now you are talking, how about using those resources on solving real crime first..then drunks, then speeders...and then when all is done then on pulling up motorcyclists that havent done anything wrong at all.

Ragingrob

21st June 2010, 22:05

You could cut some slack to the poor old po po who has to pull you over because of this misguided direction from on high. Of course the "we're only following orders" defence didnt work and shouldn't work at Nuremberg, and shouldn't be accepted here.

Lets just get this straight: A reasonable, responsible tax and rate paying citizen, out and about on a perfectly legitemate recreational activity can be expected to be pulled over, harassed, and in fact targeted for harassment, based only on their preferred recreational vehicle: and some of you are OK with that? What the hell?. It is outright fascism, nothing more or less.

So no matter what their attitude is, they're wrong.

But that's obviously not the right attitude is it?

A reasonable, responsible tax and rate paying citizen, out and about on a perfectly legitemate recreational activity can be expected to be pulled over, a quick check of license and wof, a friendly chat about whatever the hell they want, and a simple enjoy your ride and ride safe message given.

Yes I am OK with that. Because that is the right attitude.

Ragingrob

21st June 2010, 22:07

Now you are talking, how about using those resources on solving real crime first..then drunks, then speeders...and then when all is done then on pulling up motorcyclists that havent done anything wrong at all.

But drunk driving probably incurs more deaths than "real crime"... Lol seriously I'm just guessing though but yeah.

warewolf

21st June 2010, 22:25

Notice they said "unusually the 11 fatalities were the motorcyclists fault". The latest analysis I read says over half are the fault of another motorist (and that both motorcyclists and the police need training to avoid the "red mist" syndrome).

Some analysts suggest NZ is too small to generate reliable stats sometimes; the 11 in 9 months probably falls into that category. So next year, when the pendulum swings the other way and unusually all the fatalities are caused by other motorists, will the police start pulling over motorists at random, checking their paperwork and having a chat to them about looking out for bikes? Somehow, I seriously doubt they'd ever do that. Hence, discrimination: they are acting differently based on some differentiating factor other than suspicion of guilt.

Back when random breath testing started in Australia, it required the rules (constitution?) modifying to give police the power to stop people without due cause (that's what the random bit means). One of the points raised was that the police could go on fishing expeditions for paperwork irregularities while they were at it. So it was specifically denied them: they had to state you were stopped for an RBT and then they were specifically not permitted to check paperwork... it was an RBT (a powerful road safety tool), nothing more. Thin end of the wedge: of course now they are pretty much required to do full paperwork checks, and they do "random licence/wof testing" operations. Ixion knows of what he speaks.

To top it all off, it is out-of-towners who are over-represented in the Tasman stats. Yet here they are running an op for 100 days, almost exactly all winter, when the out-of-towner count is likely to be at a minimum, and those on the roads in the difficult winter conditions are likely to be the most seasoned, careful & reasoning riders. ie the sensible locals are gonna cop the brunt of the campaign, and they aren't the target audience!!!

warewolf

22nd June 2010, 13:22

How apropos:

<object height="385" width="640">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ns-CpxNsA3k&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="385" width="640">[/URL]</object>

and

<object height="385" width="640">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VruWHHEnZGw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="385" width="640">[URL="http://www.youtube.com/v/VruWHHEnZGw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"] (http://www.youtube.com/v/Ns-CpxNsA3k&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1)</object>

Both good efforts, I thought.

Katman

22nd June 2010, 14:16

Both good efforts, I thought.

That second one is easily the best motorcycle ad I've ever seen.

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 14:27

But that's obviously not the right attitude is it?

A reasonable, responsible tax and rate paying citizen, out and about on a perfectly legitemate recreational activity can be expected to be pulled over, a quick check of license and wof, a friendly chat about whatever the hell they want, and a simple enjoy your ride and ride safe message given.

Yes I am OK with that. Because that is the right attitude.

Sorry, incorrect: What you're saying is "I havent done anything wrong, I dont need to worry": you are in fact parroting Fatty Broad's line "If you havent done anything wrong you dont need to worry".

The issue here, and the problem is not whether you have done anything wrong (and like me, you probably havent), the issue here is specific targeting of a group for special treatment EVEN THOUGH they havent done anything wrong.

Here is a thought exercise for you (and yes, its meant to be provocative, it illustrates my point very well I think):

We're going to target Maoris now. Every Maoriwe see on the street is going to be stopped, asked for proof of ID, and asked what they are doing and where they are going. There is an ongoing menace in Nelson with these types, why in the last eight months eleven have been killed dead. Dont worry Maoris, if you havent done anything wrong and you are carrying your ID and whatnot, you dont have anything to worry about"

See what I mean? See why I am so angry?

Katman

22nd June 2010, 14:29

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 14:30

That second one is easily the best motorcycle ad I've ever seen.

Hell yeah! I like that a LOT.

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 14:31

Pretty much like shops with the sign 'No school bags allowed'.

Private property, the owner or occupier can impose what terms and conditions they see fit for entry

red mermaid

22nd June 2010, 14:54

If you are going to rely on this principle it is already way to late.

I spend just about my whole working day stopping vehicles that have committed no offences, and by and large have been doing so since 1983.
The drivers I deal with, when I explain what is going on have no problem with it, and quite often thank me.

Sorry, incorrect: What you're saying is "I havent done anything wrong, I dont need to worry": you are in fact parroting Fatty Broad's line "If you havent done anything wrong you dont need to worry".

The issue here, and the problem is not whether you have done anything wrong (and like me, you probably havent), the issue here is specific targeting of a group for special treatment EVEN THOUGH they havent done anything wrong.

Here is a thought exercise for you (and yes, its meant to be provocative, it illustrates my point very well I think):

See what I mean? See why I am so angry?

onearmedbandit

22nd June 2010, 15:16

That second one is easily the best motorcycle ad I've ever seen.

Second that. It's got real impact, excuse the pun. No reason why the NZ powers that be can't borrow it from the Aussies. They don't mind borrowing anything from us!

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 16:33

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 16:37

scumdog

22nd June 2010, 16:46

The issue here, and the problem is not whether you have done anything wrong (and like me, you probably havent), the issue here is specific targeting of a group for special treatment EVEN THOUGH they havent done anything wrong.

To harp on a bit: So all the drunk-drivers/disqualified drivers picked up by random stopping should not have been prosecuted because they were doing nothing wrong up until the point they were stopped?

red mermaid

22nd June 2010, 16:47

Ragingrob

22nd June 2010, 16:55

Sorry, incorrect: What you're saying is "I havent done anything wrong, I dont need to worry": you are in fact parroting Fatty Broad's line "If you havent done anything wrong you dont need to worry".

The issue here, and the problem is not whether you have done anything wrong (and like me, you probably havent), the issue here is specific targeting of a group for special treatment EVEN THOUGH they havent done anything wrong.

Here is a thought exercise for you (and yes, its meant to be provocative, it illustrates my point very well I think):

See what I mean? See why I am so angry?

I'm just gonna be a dick and say: Yeah, if eleven Maori had committed suicide in Nelson in the last eight months, and I was Maori, I would not have a problem with strolling down a street and a cop pulling over and just asking how my day was going and telling me to have a good one.

And how can you say I'm "incorrect"? What kinda powerhouse do you think you are? If people are dying, I have no problem with cops targeting that group to pass a safety message on, and once again I'm stating this in the context of the cops doing it with a friendly Kiwi attitude. How the fuck can you say I am incorrect?

Targeting a group that haven't done anything wrong? Errr last time I heard, dying wasn't exactly the right thing to do.

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 16:58

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 17:07

I'm just gonna be a dick and say: Yeah, if eleven Maori had committed suicide in Nelson in the last eight months, and I was Maori, I would not have a problem with strolling down a street and a cop pulling over and just asking how my day was going and telling me to have a good one.

And how can you say I'm "incorrect"? What kinda powerhouse do you think you are? If people are dying, I have no problem with cops targeting that group to pass a safety message on, and once again I'm stating this in the context of the cops doing it with a friendly Kiwi attitude. How the fuck can you say I am incorrect?

Targeting a group that haven't done anything wrong? Errr last time I heard, dying wasn't exactly the right thing to do.

I think you are incorrect. Your logic does not follow.

I am anything but a powerhouse by the way.

HenryDorsetCase

22nd June 2010, 17:12

Fuck! you'll have to take as read my brilliant post and flawless logic about this: bloody computer froze and I lost it and I cbf typing it again. Lets talk about boobies some more.

davereid

22nd June 2010, 17:31

And I can hardly wait for you to start ignoring that other stupid law of having to keep left, and just drive where you want.
The point I was originally making is that the ability to stop vehicles at random has always been in force. It was only the authority in law to breath test drivers at random that was not in existence.

We certainly catch drunks and unregistered / licensed drivers with random stops. To many, that's justification enough to be able to conduct them.

I'm sure police regularly "tip out" cars, and conduct searches as well, and they may well from time to time find drugs, stolen property or other contraband. To many this would justify giving police the right to random stop vehicles and search them.

Its not a big step, to allow random searching of people then, is it? If you can search the car at random, why not allow searching the person ?

If you can search the person who is driving a car, and its showed itself to be an effective way of finding contraband, or criminals, why not extent it to situations where the person is not in a vehicle ?

If you can randomly search a person or a vehicle, why not extend the power to randomly search homes ? You could just about end drug use, receiving stolen property, and a myriad of other crimes by simply having this power.

The postie spends 30 sec a day at my house, thats 150 minutes a year. You would need a "random search squad" equivalent to the number of posities in the country, and every 3 or so years, you would have the manpower to conduct a "random" 8 hour search, of every house in the country. Take a copy of the HDD on the p.c. while you are doing it.

You would find lots of crime then ?

Only criminals would have to fear it !

scumdog

22nd June 2010, 17:36

If you can randomly search a person or a vehicle, why not extend the power to randomly search homes ? You could just about end drug use, receiving stolen property, and a myriad of other crimes by simply having this power. !

They would not be in a public place if they were in their own home - quite a difference to driving down the road.

ukusa

22nd June 2010, 17:44

Why don't we just request they start only pulling over only Harley's because they're more likely to be stolen. Cops could then pass the message on to make sure you lock your bike securely. It'll probably save around the same number of lives.
The only way this dumbass move will save lives in the Marlborough area is by annoying the riders so much they go to another province to kill themselves. Again I havn't got a problem with the getting pulled over part, it's the whole approach to revenue gathering/road safety that's fucked, and while that still exists, people will still kill themselves.

Flip

22nd June 2010, 18:20

I'm not really interested in hypothetical situations, this is not the 70's when bikie gangs were a issue, and if HD's were being stolen speaking as a HD owner I would like the Rozza to pull over every one they see.

This is the 21st century, there have been a lot of bike accidents in Nelson and the cops are targeting bike riders in this area. Good on them for taking an interest in our safety.

If you want to ride around on a un-registered, un-warranted, probably un-insured bike possibly without a motorcycle drivers license then more fool you. All the Rozza can do is police the road regulations, thats all they can do. If the problems' with the road conditions take it up with the Transport Minister and the local RCA. If the problem is the other road users learn to ride more defensively.

I bet that this will significantly reduce the motor cycle accident rate in Nelson and prove or strongly suggest that the problem was the motorcyclists all along.

red mermaid

22nd June 2010, 18:30

Be careful, I'm sure there is a conspiracy behind that lamp post down the road!

So people really do get carried away with their own conspiracy theories.

We certainly catch drunks and unregistered / licensed drivers with random stops. To many, that's justification enough to be able to conduct them.

I'm sure police regularly "tip out" cars, and conduct searches as well, and they may well from time to time find drugs, stolen property or other contraband. To many this would justify giving police the right to random stop vehicles and search them.

Its not a big step, to allow random searching of people then, is it? If you can search the car at random, why not allow searching the person ?

If you can search the person who is driving a car, and its showed itself to be an effective way of finding contraband, or criminals, why not extent it to situations where the person is not in a vehicle ?

If you can randomly search a person or a vehicle, why not extend the power to randomly search homes ? You could just about end drug use, receiving stolen property, and a myriad of other crimes by simply having this power.

The postie spends 30 sec a day at my house, thats 150 minutes a year. You would need a "random search squad" equivalent to the number of posities in the country, and every 3 or so years, you would have the manpower to conduct a "random" 8 hour search, of every house in the country. Take a copy of the HDD on the p.c. while you are doing it.

You would find lots of crime then ?

Only criminals would have to fear it !

ukusa

22nd June 2010, 18:31

I'm not really interested in hypothetical situations, this is not the 70's when bikie gangs were a issue, and if HD's were being stolen speaking as a HD owner I would like the Rozza to pull over every one they see.
I bet that this will significantly reduce the motor cycle accident rate in Nelson and prove that the problem was the motorcyclists all along.

:slap:It was a sarcastic analogy.

A keen betting man I see, but I think the weather conditions would make more of an impact on the no. road deaths at the moment.

Katman

22nd June 2010, 18:36

:slap:It was a sarcastic analogy.

A keen betting man I see, but I think the weather conditions would make more of an impact on the no. road deaths at the moment.

Yeah, you're probably right.

Thankfully we've still got a couple of months still ahead of us before the next killing season starts.

Flip

22nd June 2010, 18:37

Not much riding down here for the next couple of days.

Yes it was sarcastic, it will just be another flash in the pan from the police brass, just like the 104kph at Queens Birthday weekend.

miloking

22nd June 2010, 18:53

miloking

22nd June 2010, 18:57

I'm just gonna be a dick and say: Yeah, if eleven Maori had committed suicide in Nelson in the last eight months, and I was Maori, I would not have a problem with strolling down a street and a cop pulling over and just asking how my day was going and telling me to have a good one.

And how can you say I'm "incorrect"? What kinda powerhouse do you think you are? If people are dying, I have no problem with cops targeting that group to pass a safety message on, and once again I'm stating this in the context of the cops doing it with a friendly Kiwi attitude. How the fuck can you say I am incorrect?

Targeting a group that haven't done anything wrong? Errr last time I heard, dying wasn't exactly the right thing to do.

Very good point! Why arent cops targeting teenage males as potential suicide group(you know pull them over and ask how is everything)...there are way more of them dying every year compare to some 11 motorcyclists in Tasman district....

Nutter34

22nd June 2010, 19:05

The prospect of all this just annoys me. How many times during this period can one reasonably be expected to be pulled over?

The cynical side of me says this won't solve anything. Surely the increased police presence would achieve the same thing... They'll say it's a success when it has nothing to do with the education spiel they'll be giving...

Tell you one thing... I'm not stopping if it's unsafe to do so. The cops gonna have to follow for a while until I deem it safe. Hopefully we don't have another cop u-turn thread out of this either.

A portion of the article not posted

"MOTORCYCLE FATALITIES

Tasman police district From September 2009 to May 2010, there have been 11 motorcycle fatalities: 3 in the West Coast police area 5 in the Marlborough police area 3 in the Nelson Bays police area Contributing factors:
Excess speed on corners
Cutting corners
Inexperience
Unlicensed
Drugs and alcohol
Age group 20 to 40
Day of the week: Saturday
Time of day: 1pm through to 7pm --------------------

scumdog

22nd June 2010, 19:12

Yet another KB "The Sky is Falling" thread....what a sorry bunch some of you are indeed......

miloking

22nd June 2010, 19:17

Yet another KB "The Sky is Falling" thread....what a sorry bunch some of you are indeed......

it has been falling for while now... this is just another "few meters down" just showing us that police realy has no clue when it comes down to road policing...

Genie

22nd June 2010, 19:20

If you know so damn much how about you go march up to the top dog of the nz police and tell him exactly how to do it 'right'.

miloking

22nd June 2010, 19:21

If you know so damn much how about you go march up to the top dog of the nz police and tell him exactly how to do it 'right'.

Um sure..how about this: stop only motorcyclists that are doing something WRONG and leave the ones going about their business peacefuly fucking alone...

I reckon that would work, what do you think...

skippa1

22nd June 2010, 19:28

Katman

22nd June 2010, 19:38

Um sure..how about this: stop only motorcyclists that are doing something WRONG and leave the ones going about their business peacefuly fucking alone...

I reckon that would work, what do you think...

I can't wait to see your reaction when we finally get this. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/125124-Undercover-Cops-on-bikes-Australia

miloking

22nd June 2010, 19:44

I can't wait to see your reaction when we finally get this. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/125124-Undercover-Cops-on-bikes-Australia

i will be joining at that point...fuck it i also want to get paid to hoon around on sprots bike.. no realy i think those guys must be ok since they are bikers themselves, much less cunty then Mr."i hate bikers" plod patroling north shore motorways...

scumdog

22nd June 2010, 19:51

it has been falling for while now... this is just another "few meters down" just showing us that police realy has no clue when it comes down to road policing...

Hmm, after 581 posts you know this????..ah well,,,,

Ragingrob

22nd June 2010, 20:15

Very good point! Why arent cops targeting teenage males as potential suicide group(you know pull them over and ask how is everything)...there are way more of them dying every year compare to some 11 motorcyclists in Tasman district....

Only a couple of teens died from drinking this year, and yeh I believe that after-balls got pretty hard. If several teens committed suicide from a school, yes I reckon cops or somebody would target them to try prevent it.

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 20:17

..
A portion of the article not posted

"MOTORCYCLE FATALITIES

Tasman police district From September 2009 to May 2010, there have been 11 motorcycle fatalities: 3 in the West Coast police area 5 in the Marlborough police area 3 in the Nelson Bays police area Contributing factors:
Excess speed on corners
Cutting corners
Inexperience
Unlicensed
Drugs and alcohol
Age group 20 to 40
Day of the week: Saturday
Time of day: 1pm through to 7pm -------------------- "

So, I suppose as long as we don't ride On saturdays between 1pm and 7pm, we'll be okay?

Lets see if we can make 100 days without a cop u-turn thread....

OK. So, how did "age group 20 to 40" get turned by the police into "middle-aged man thing". "[Riders] just appear to be coming up here, if I'm brutally honest, with their midlife crisis and riding around and dying," he (Superintendent Knowles) said."

Did you 30 somethings know that you were middleaged , complete with mid life crisis? No , nor did I.

Sup. Knowles appears to be using a increase in crash rates to leverage his own personal prejudices, even though his own figures show that the "middle aged" rider (with or without mid life crisis) doesn't even figure in the stats.

As a middle aged rider (without mid life crisis) I suspect that any stop by Nelson police would not be very friendly. And of course, refusal to admit that one does indeed have a "mid life crisis", and is therefore a baby raping crashing menace, will be construed as failing the "attitude test".

Nutter34

22nd June 2010, 20:28

Middle-aged, yes

The only crisis is about the way to ride, the mental battle between the angel and devil on the two shoulders, prompting their arguments for and against certain behaviour...

miloking

22nd June 2010, 21:17

Hmm, after 581 posts you know this????..ah well,,,,

takes 0 post to know that...also i didnt know this was a contest on who makes most pointless posts but looking at your 10,000+ i guess it its...

JATZ

22nd June 2010, 21:21

As a middle aged rider (without mid life crisis) I suspect that any stop by Nelson police would not be very friendly.

Tell ya what Mr Ixion..... I'll go for a ride this w/end on a couple of the roads mentioned elsewhere in this thread :ride: , and I'll report back on monday as to the attitude of the local police if I do get stopped.
No.... no.... don't try to talk me out of it, I feel it is my duty to the wider K.B. community to test this assumption that you have made :D

I do hope your wrong as I'm protesting the acc levy too :shit:

Woodman

22nd June 2010, 21:38

fossil

22nd June 2010, 21:57

Ixion; yesterday you said this : However, I'm happy to take your word for the benevolence of the Nelson police. If for no other eason than that I don't live there so I can't really say what the attitude is. BTW there is no BRONZ Nelson, so jibes at BRONZ are irrelevant. If there were it would be up to them to formulate a response, if they deemed it necessary.

And today you follow it up with this: As a middle aged rider (without mid life crisis) I suspect that any stop by Nelson police would not be very friendly. And of course, refusal to admit that one does indeed have a "mid life crisis", and is therefore a baby raping crashing menace, will be construed as failing the "attitude test".
Its no wonder Bronz has only 242 members.

scumdog

22nd June 2010, 21:59

takes 0 post to know that...also i didnt know this was a contest on who makes most pointless posts but looking at your 10,000+ i guess it its...

So I win?

Great!:woohoo:

(TIP: Not ALL your posts have to be pointless);)

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 22:14

I give up......

Some of you guys are just way too precious...... i wonder if truck drivers think that the cops are picking on them and being big meanies when they stop to weigh the trucks.

They are only pulling over a certain vehicle type not making a personal attack on you.

Get over it.

Hm

Supt. Knowles statement : "middle-aged man thing". "[Riders] just appear to be coming up here, if I'm brutally honest, with their midlife crisis and riding around and dying," he (Superintendent Knowles) said".

When in fact the figures shho that middle aged riders (ie, me) are not represented at all.With or without this "mid life" crisis he's dreamed up.

I reckon that's pretty personal , myself. I'm smack in the target demographic he's attacking, without any justification at all. If I were in Nelson I'd certainly be regarding it as personal.

How does you justify his attack on middleaged riders when the figures show quite the reverse? And how do you justify his smear tactic of "mid life crisis" ?

And , FFS , how many returning middle aged riders go out and assuage their midlife crisis on a MOPED ?

Woodman

22nd June 2010, 22:24

Hm

Supt. Knowles statement : "middle-aged man thing". "[Riders] just appear to be coming up here, if I'm brutally honest, with their midlife crisis and riding around and dying," he (Superintendent Knowles) said".

When in fact the figures shho that middle aged riders (ie, me) are not represented at all.With or without this "mid life" crisis he's dreamed up.

I reckon that's pretty personal , myself. I'm smack in the target demographic he's attacking, without any justification at all. If I were in Nelson I'd certainly be regarding it as personal.

How does you justify his attack on middleaged riders when the figures show quite the reverse? And how do you justify his smear tactic of "mid life crisis" ?

And , FFS , how many returning middle aged riders go out and assuage their midlife crisis on a MOPED ?

Maybe I just don't take things to heart as much as you do.

Without me sounding too much like a wanker, but how would you prefer the Police to handle motorcycles?? considering that the chances of serious injury are high (no matter who is at fault), and a lot of motorcyclists are using public roads for recreational purposes. (including me and I accept the risks).

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 22:29

Maybe I just don't take things to heart as much as you do.

Without me sounding too much like a wanker, but how would you prefer the Police to handle motorcycles?? considering that the chances of serious injury are high (no matter who is at fault), and a lot of motorcyclists are using public roads for recreational purposes. (including me and I accept the risks).

Like I already said :

...
"Officer Bumblebee, please stop any motorcyclists that may not be familiar with our roads and explain that , whilst we are very pleased to see them enjoying our wonderful roads, said roads can be a bit tricky, and some people have recently come to grief. And offer assistance and advice to facilitate their having a happy and safe motorcycling experience".

..

And maybe a map of good local riding roads, with warning notes about the tricky bits where people might come to grief.

Importing a load of codswallop about "mid life crises" and directing the focus onto a group that isn't actually figuring in the stats isn't helpful at all.

Woodman

22nd June 2010, 22:39

Cool, neat, great. How do the cops know who may be unfamiliar? I know nelson can be a bit clicky, but we don't have our own regional numberplates. (yet)

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 22:42

Cool, neat, great. How do the cops know who may be unfamiliar? I know nelson can be a bit clicky, but we don't have our own regional numberplates. (yet)

Other way round , I'd assume. Presumably local cops will recognise locals, it's not that big a place.How many local bikes can there be ? Anyone unfamiliar is probably unfamiliar. Strangers in an area are usually fairly easy to spot.

Bikes with a CoF instead of a WoF would also be a dead give away.

EDIT: If they do stop a local who knows the roads well, no big deal, if the approach is as posted. Doubt any biker could really object to that, especially if it was phrased as a question - "Hi, just wondering if you're familiar with the roads round here?".

Done right, they could have gas stations spread the word for tourists to call in and ask for a copy of said map, probably be regarded as a useful thing.

gammaguy

22nd June 2010, 22:46

Be interested in a legal opinion on whether it boiled down to harasment. I don't believe they've got any business buttonholeing motorists going about their business.

Did nobody see this coming? The day they invented ACC cover for road accidents it became inevitable they'd decide they needed to control your behaviour.

Suckers.

if riders ride like dickheads,they deserve to be treated like them.i see stupid shit all the time,such as overtaking on blind corners,not wanting to be left behind on group overtaking moves etc.

if we tidy our act up,chances are we will be left alone.

Sadly the statistics suggest that aint gonna happen.

while riders balls are bigger than their brains,it will continue.

Woodman

22nd June 2010, 22:50

Other way round , I'd assume. Presumably local cops will recognise locals, it's not that big a place.How many local bikes can there be ? Anyone unfamiliar is probably unfamiliar. Strangers in an area are usually fairly easy to spot.

Bikes with a CoF instead of a WoF would also be a dead give away.

EDIT: If they do stop a local who knows the roads well, no big deal, if the approach is as posted. Doubt any biker could really object to that, especially if it was phrased as a question - "Hi, just wondering if you're familiar with the roads round here?".

Done right, they could have gas stations spread the word for tourists to call in and ask for a copy of said map, probably be regarded as a useful thing.

Thanks for that, You pretty much confirmed to me why they are doing it the way they are doing it. And like you said the locals will find it to be no big deal anyway so no probs.

Roadsafe Nelson

22nd June 2010, 22:51

And maybe a map of good local riding roads, with warning notes about the tricky bits where people might come to grief.

We already have these here too!!!!!!! I hand them out to all my trainees & they are available all around the place :yes:

pics to come shortly

Honestly some of you lot... you seem to have NO IDEA of what actually IS happening round here.. in terms of all the GOOD things that are & have been happening for a while!!!! :doh:

maybe some of you need to TALK less & observe more :shutup:

Roadsafe Nelson

22nd June 2010, 23:01

Other way round , I'd assume. Presumably local cops will recognise locals, it's not that big a place.How many local bikes can there be ? Anyone unfamiliar is probably unfamiliar. Strangers in an area are usually fairly easy to spot.

Done right, they could have gas stations spread the word for tourists to call in and ask for a copy of said map, probably be regarded as a useful thing

For someone who is supposed to know a lot.. you sure don't actually know a lot Ixion.. :confused:

Nelson has the second BIGGEST Ulysses club in the country behind AK !!!!!

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 23:07

Thanks for that, You pretty much confirmed to me why they are doing it the way they are doing it. And like you said the locals will find it to be no big deal anyway so no probs.

Well, that depends. Maybe they are doing it that way but if so they are seriously at variance with their own boss, whose quoted approach sems much more along the lones of "pull them over and compliance them with a fine tooth comb,and if they happen to be.middleaged read them the riot act about how evil they and their mid life crisis are"

Not seeing much of friendly or help in.his approach

Me, if i were a local i'd reckon that a prob, and i would take it personally

98tls

22nd June 2010, 23:08

We already have these here too!!!!!!! I hand them out to all my trainees & they are available all around the place :yes:

pics to come shortly

Honestly some of you lot... you seem to have NO IDEA of what actually IS happening round here.. in terms of all the GOOD things that are & have been happening for a while!!!! :doh:

maybe some of you need to TALK less & observe more :shutup:

What xactly is the "what is actually happening round here" thing?40 odd bikes and almost as many years riding later ive never understood wtf these threads (thankfully theres not been 40 years of the interweb) are about,not having a crack at you at all personally.

98tls

22nd June 2010, 23:11

For someone who is supposed to know a lot.. you sure don't actually know a lot Ixion.. :confused:

Nelson has the second BIGGEST Ulysses club in the country behind AK !!!!!

Whats that got to do with anything motorcycling,nationwide they have probably put more motorcyclists off joining than have ever joined fwiw.

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 23:13

For someone who is supposed to know a lot.. you sure don't actually know a lot Ixion.. :confused:

Nelson has the second BIGGEST Ulysses club in the country behind AK !!!!!

Thats nice. Never claimed to know much about ulysses, never had much to do with them. They're a bit old for me . Maybe one day.

Woodman

22nd June 2010, 23:18

Well, that depends. Maybe they are doing it that way but if so they are seriously at variance with their own boss, whose quoted approach sems much more along the lones of "pull them over and compliance them with a fine tooth comb,and if they happen to be.middleaged read them the riot act about how evil they and their mid life crisis are"

Not seeing much of friendly or help in.his approach

Me, if i were a local i'd reckon that a prob, and i would take it personally

Now your just making quotes up and then using the quote to argue against your own made up quote.

This has got seriously silly

Roadsafe Nelson

22nd June 2010, 23:20

right.. my computer is playing games with me & taking forever to try & download pics from my camera.. so will try & sort pics out tomorrow

The maps clearly show hotspots around the region, pinpointing high risk areas & listing the potential dangers in each of those areas.

FYI.. Roadsafe have been running a Mentoring Programme through the Ulysses Club in Hamilton in conjunction with Ulysses National & ACC for the past 4 years now!!! This programme is currently being taken further, to include several other North Island towns, & has also recently been confirmed by Ulysses head office again with ACC.. to launch the programme in NELSON!!!

We are in the process of collecting application forms from people who feel they may be a suitable Mentor for our local riders.. we will hand select the candidates we feel will be suitable & put them through a special training programme!!!! The Mentors will follow certain procedures & will have to keep a log book of their mentees. They will also undergo yearly training with Roadsafe, to keep upskilled.

There are a lot of people down here who CARE about our riders.. & we are doing a hell of a lot of work to try & improve the situation!!

So.. maybe it's time to get off your soapbox for a while & go have that cup of tea. :niceone:

98tls

22nd June 2010, 23:23

Thats nice. Never claimed to know much about ulysses, never had much to do with them. They're a bit old for me . Maybe one day.

Dont bother fella,im old and gave it a go,only for one ride though.Before setting off on a ride with em i had to rush home grab a pen/paper and saddlebags to write down then store the rules and regs.Highlight of the day was being so bored sitting behind a bloke on a Beemer i thought id rebel and pass only to find i set of his pacemaker resulting in him short circuiting resulting in him clenching his fists and getting well outta hand,bit dangerous i thought.

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 23:32

I'm sure you are doong admirable work, and respect for it.

However your local chief of pplice does seem to be letting the side down with his focis pm middle aged riders and mid life crises.

So long as his attitudes are confined to Nelson, its not a problem for me.

But , police being what they are, said attitude is likely tp be copied by other forces. Like, where i am. And then it does become a problem forme.

I see , BTW, that the local Ulysses president is in the paper condemning the police attitude.

98tls

22nd June 2010, 23:40

Ixion

22nd June 2010, 23:46

Dont bother fella,im old and gave it a go,only for one ride though.Before setting off on a ride with em i had to rush home grab a pen/paper and saddlebags to write down then store the rules and regs.Highlight of the day was being so bored sitting behind a bloke on a Beemer i thought id rebel and pass only to find i set of his pacemaker resulting in him short circuiting resulting in him clenching his fists and getting well outta hand,bit dangerous i thought.

Yes, i dont think you are supppsed to do that.

Many Ulyssians are very nice people, just a bit obsessed with grand childre;n and rules. They seem to have a rather strange riding style, there's probably a rule about it, whicj just doesnt work for me.

Nutter34

22nd June 2010, 23:54

No offence fella.

Lol Jen, I never knew you were a bloke?

There's a part of me that would consider teaching and training new people but the hooligan part keeps it subdued... Maybe when I get to your age, lol...

98tls

23rd June 2010, 00:02

Lol Jen, I never knew you were a bloke?

Just shows ya eh,never judge a book by its cover.

98tls

23rd June 2010, 00:13

Yes, i dont think you are supppsed to do that.

Many Ulyssians are very nice people, just a bit obsessed with grand childre;n and rules. They seem to have a rather strange riding style, there's probably a rule about it, whicj just doesnt work for me. Its that whole "group" thing methinks.The idea of being instructed by a bunch of ex hell raisers that either had no natural ability and kept falling off for no good reason or did have ability but couldnt sober up for more than 12 hours at a time so simply went out and bought cruisers and hooked up with likemindeds just doesnt work for me,worse still they impart this wisdom to those they perceive as lesser mortals.

davereid

23rd June 2010, 08:26

There are a lot of people down here who CARE about our riders.. & we are doing a hell of a lot of work to try & improve the situation!!

Maybe its just me... but every time someone has claimed they "care" for me, they have always wanted to follow that up with advice. Then after the advice, some more rules. And then actual interference with the way I do things. Normally they find a way to stop me doing something I like, and/or take money off me. Still, its for my own good.

duckonin

23rd June 2010, 09:07

i see stupid shit all the time,such as overtaking on blind corners..

That would include a lot of car drivers also would it not ?

warewolf

23rd June 2010, 09:13

The idea of being instructed by a bunch of ex hell raisersNote that that is NOT what RoadSafe are doing. They are bringing external training & skills IN to the Ulysses. (and it is being offered, not enforced)

MY problem with the police in Nelson is that they regularly spout off emotive specious crap in the papers which is at odds with the data. Then they come out with cockameeny schemes like this blitz which are purely about being seen to be doing something, rather than doing something, and just piss off people who are already trying to do the right thing. They are also pushing the boundaries of civil liberties while they are at it.

I see way too many incidences of cops ignoring utterly blatant dangerous driving right under their noses that I just can't believe any of them give the slightest shit about road safety.

And is it just me who's noticed the glaring omission in their justification? They've only mentioned fatalities. Including all the injury crashes, who was at fault??

Katman

23rd June 2010, 09:25

Including all the injury crashes, who was at fault??

You'd probably be disappointed.

roogazza

23rd June 2010, 09:54

Hm

Supt. Knowles statement : "[B]middle-aged man thing". "[Riders] just appear to be coming up here, if I'm brutally honest, with their midlife crisis and riding around and dying," he (Superintendent Knowles) said".

Jesus , that's made my day Ixion, So Knowles made Superintendent ! I recall him (Gary) as a young Police Cadet (in the days they had them) in my class ! Fuck , how old am I ! Gaz.

oldrider

23rd June 2010, 10:07

Most of our protestations about how statistics are being misrepresented against us would get a hell of a lot more traction if:

"we weren't actually contributing to the statistics so much" :mellow:

It would probably be to our advantage to reduce that trend if we want to be appreciated as responsible motorists! :shifty:

So who is it that has the personal responsibility and accountability for that? :ride: :yes:

duckonin

23rd June 2010, 12:04

Its that whole "group" thing methinks.The idea of being instructed by a bunch of ex hell raisers that either had no natural ability and kept falling off for no good reason or did have ability but couldnt sober up for more than 12 hours at a time so simply went out and bought cruisers and hooked up with likemindeds just doesnt work for me,worse still they impart this wisdom to those they perceive as lesser mortals.

Do you actually believe the crap you write ? or are your words of your own experience ?

Ixion

23rd June 2010, 12:16

Note that that is NOT what RoadSafe are doing. They are bringing external training & skills IN to the Ulysses. (and it is being offered, not enforced)

MY problem with the police in Nelson is that they regularly spout off emotive specious crap in the papers which is at odds with the data. Then they come out with cockameeny schemes like this blitz which are purely about being seen to be doing something, rather than doing something, and just piss off people who are already trying to do the right thing. They are also pushing the boundaries of civil liberties while they are at it.

I see way too many incidences of cops ignoring utterly blatant dangerous driving right under their noses that I just can't believe any of them give the slightest shit about road safety.

And is it just me who's noticed the glaring omission in their justification? They've only mentioned fatalities. Including all the injury crashes, who was at fault??

The thread title was 'Blitz on bikers". About what the police are doing.

What Roadsafe and TDC are doing is a completely separate matter.

The latter(Roadsafe/TDC) is entirely commendable IMHO.

The former (police) is more suspect. It might be deprecable or it might not. It really depends on how the individual coppers interpret their bosses very one-eyed attitude. But , at best, it appears to be something that will be of little if any value, other than boosting ticket figures.

But whatever the police do doesn't really impinge on the RS/TDC projects.

I think Nelson does not have bikie cops, so it will always be hard for the Nelson police to establish credibility with bikers. The amount of total (and dangerous) crap about "how to ride a motorbike" that I have solemnly been told by non-riding cops over the years would fill a book.

Ixion

23rd June 2010, 12:19

Maybe its just me... but every time someone has claimed they "care" for me, they have always wanted to follow that up with advice. Then after the advice, some more rules. And then actual interference with the way I do things. Normally they find a way to stop me doing something I like, and/or take money off me. Still, its for my own good.

There are two types of people in the world. Those who, when the man at the door says "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you", open the door wider and invite him in

And those who slam the door in has face and run for the shotgun, knowing thta this is not going to be for their benefit.

I am of the latter persuasion

Flip

23rd June 2010, 12:26

There are two types of people in the world. Those who, when the man at the door says "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you", open the door wider and invite him in

And those who slam the door in has face and run for the shotgun, knowing thta this is not going to be for their benefit.

I am of the latter persuasion

So this has very little to do with bike safety and a lot to do with you making a political statement.

Ixion

23rd June 2010, 12:30

So this has very little to do with bike safety and a lot to do with you making a political statement.

More about bike safety , at any rate, than the police blitz has to do with bike safety, which is absolutely nothing.

Willdat?

23rd June 2010, 12:45

Hi,
As a follow on from feedback from some motorbike riders it was found that riders were unsure on who to contact if they came across a road safety issue whilst out riding. So I have put together some details to let all riders know who to contact and report these issues to. I cannot guarantee we can fix everything, but if we do not know there is an issue then we defiantly cannot fix it.
So to report loose gravel, trees obscuring signs, oils spills etc….
• phone one of the numbers below
• give accurate details of where and what needs fixing
• say you're a motorcyclist

Tasman District roads - 03 543 8400
State Highways - 0800 4 HIGHWAYS
Nelson City roads- 03 546 0200 or www.nelsoncitycouncil.co.nz/fix-a-gram
I have also put this information into a flyer that I have given out to motorbike shops and forwarded for club newsletters. But if you would like to have some of these to give out to other riders then please do not hesitate to contact me.
Krista Hobday
Road Safety Coordinator
Tasman District Council
.

More on the pro-TDC wagon, received this email today :)

Flip

23rd June 2010, 13:09

More about bike safety , at any rate, than the police blitz has to do with bike safety, which is absolutely nothing.

What do you honestly expect the Police to do? All they can do is police the road code, thats all. They do set the regulations or make policy all they do is enforcement.

If you have a problem because your personal ideas about human rights are being questioned take it up with the human rights commission.

If Tasman is a motorcycle accident hot spot, and I appreciate knowing about this because I am from this area, then the only and correct response from the Police is to step up the enforcement in this area.

miloking

23rd June 2010, 13:24

What do you honestly expect the Police to do? All they can do is police the road code, thats all. They do set the regulations or make policy all they do is enforcement.

If you have a problem because your personal ideas about human rights are being questioned take it up with the human rights commission.

If Tasman is a motorcycle accident hot spot, and I appreciate knowing about this because I am from this area, then the only and correct response from the Police is to step up the enforcement in this area.

Yes please, police the fucking road code...but what has stoping ANY bike that is not even breaking any rules to do with policing road code?

Also If tasman is motorcycle accident hot spot...now you know and so do we, and stepping up enforcement is just fine...but again what has stopping all bikes to do with enforcement when they didnt break any rules.

Fuck its like Iam the only one here taking crazy pills or something....doesnt any of you see how this is wrong, assuming guilt where there isnt one based on type of transport people choose!!! (unless of course all this hype about safety is just disguise to check regos...within next 3 months)

fossil

23rd June 2010, 14:17

"Fuck its like Iam the only one here taking crazy pills or something."
Don't worry miloking your'e not alone, Ixion is keeping you company.

Flip

23rd June 2010, 14:36

The Police already have all the authority they like to pull you over and check your license, wof, rego and breath test you when ever they like. They only need reasonable grounds to do a search but thats all.

It's not right or wrong, they are not assuming guilt and you have no choice but to stop (unless you think you can do a runner and get away with it).

You and Ixion really do need to take a few sensible pills.

scumdog

23rd June 2010, 17:15

Fuck its like Iam the only one here taking crazy pills or something....doesnt any of you see how this is wrong, assuming guilt where there isnt one based on type of transport people choose!!! (unless of course all this hype about safety is just disguise to check regos...within next 3 months)

Yes, it IS like you are the only one here taking crazy pills.:blink:

I am waiting to see a post from anybody in the Nelson area that has been stopped by cops - more so if they've been stopped more than once.

And let us know how it felt to have their 'rights' breached - or how it felt to be targetted as a minority.

Most likely they would have more important things in their lives than worrying about that sort of stuff.:yes:

sinned

23rd June 2010, 17:21

It is so long since I have been stopped by a cop (I think my demerits have expired) I thought I might put the bike on the ferry and head to Nelson. Nice roads in them parts.

HenryDorsetCase

23rd June 2010, 17:27

There are two types of people in the world. Those who, when the man at the door says "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you", open the door wider and invite him in

And those who slam the door in has face and run for the shotgun, knowing thta this is not going to be for their benefit.

I am of the latter persuasion

Assuming, as one does, that you have a valid firearm licence, and that you believe that you or another is in imminent danger of their life, then, Bravo!

HenryDorsetCase

23rd June 2010, 17:30

What do you honestly expect the Police to do? All they can do is police the road code, thats all. They do set the regulations or make policy all they do is enforcement.

If you have a problem because your personal ideas about human rights are being questioned take it up with the human rights commission.

If Tasman is a motorcycle accident hot spot, and I appreciate knowing about this because I am from this area, then the only and correct response from the Police is to step up the enforcement in this area.

I think you mean "They do NOT set the regulations...."

Your suggestion to refer to the HRC is a good one, but it would have to be made by one of the exploited. Sadly (or not) I am not from there nor likely to be riding there before summer and the lapse by effluxion of time of this (in my view) retarded policy.

HenryDorsetCase

23rd June 2010, 17:33

Yes, it IS like you are the only one here taking crazy pills.:blink:

I am waiting to see a post from anybody in the Nelson area that has been stopped by cops - more so if they've been stopped more than once.

And let us know how it felt to have their 'rights' breached - or how it felt to be targetted as a minority.

Most likely they would have more important things in their lives than worrying about that sort of stuff.:yes:

strue, innit. I am the Blair Peach of KB. Without, obviously, the being killed by Special Branch or anti-apartheidt protest part.

I am telepathically thinking about my long rant yesterday that started with the Magna Carta, and ended "so there, Howard Broad". I'm sure once you have retreived it telekinetically, you will agree it was brilliant.

HenryDorsetCase

23rd June 2010, 17:35

How about that local sports team?

ten other characters

Genie

23rd June 2010, 20:23

Yes, it IS like you are the only one here taking crazy pills.:blink:

I am waiting to see a post from anybody in the Nelson area that has been stopped by cops - more so if they've been stopped more than once.

And let us know how it felt to have their 'rights' breached - or how it felt to be targetted as a minority.

Most likely they would have more important things in their lives than worrying about that sort of stuff.:yes:

Oh me, I got stopped once by the most handsomest of policemen, very nice and tidy in his delightful blue uniform. Was on a lovely sunny sunday morning in the little township of tapawera. I fair shit myself, I dont' do policemen that well, anyway seems they were just checking warrants, licences and alcohol levels. I was actually impressed.....it meant that no drunk/hungover peeps were on the road with me. He was really nice to me and didn't even tell me off for no 'L-plate'....told me to stay safe and enjoy the sunny weather. I did!!!