Chance to have another go at the POPO

[rastuscat]

Go on then have another go at the POPO for pursuing a cage driver.

One more chase, one more death.

Whose fault is it, the POPO or the perpetrator?

[wysper]

Go on then have another go at the POPO for pursuing a cage driver.

One more chase, one more death.

Whose fault is it, the POPO or the perpetrator?

Might just be me, but I blame the runner.

[MSTRS]

You got the reason wrong. I suppose it's still the filth's fault...but it's because they dropped the 4kph tolerance thing. Did you not see how many deaths in the last few days?

[CookMySock]

Kids are kids, mate. They don't think. If the fuzz are going to chase them then they are going to run - it's 50% fun and 50% "it will never happen to me."

Adults must learn that kids aren't going to get it. You can't fix this. You have to find another way.

I don't get it - if the pigs have their rego plate then why not post the ticket to them in the mail? So fucking what if they don't to pull him over - build a fucking bridge.

If chasing them down is going to be a disaster then why do it, other than just on principle? I'd hazard a guess there is far more likely to be a horrific outcome in the chase-down then if they just let them go.

Why not apply legislation to fix it? Take the drink-driving situation for example - a driver refuses to supply a blood sample and faces a far more hefty fine than if they had just taken the hit. Why not have an "evading police" charge, where a vehicle clearly attempts to evade police then they face a far more hefty fine than if they just had stopped. Surely it's not hard to run a camera in the patrol unit? Why not just triple the fine for "failing to stop"? That will make them think.



Steve

[duckonin]

Who cares anymore ? just suck it up, it happens to often same old same old..Police are never at fault !!

[rastuscat]

Interesting reply DB.

The reg plate thing is reflected in KB threads. Have a look at the thread about evading S.118 of the Land Transport Act. Lots of people have made suggestions about how to beat the POPO request for drivers details.

Then there's another thread asking people to be honest about how they have evaded the POPO after being detected breaking the rules. And lots have admitted having done it.

There really is a number of complete conflicts in this issue. If you make the penalty for failing to stop greater, you increase the incentive to try to escape. If you stop the POPO from chasing, you simply encourage people to not stop. The ones who will suffer are the ones who comply with the law.

Then again, that's how it always has been. E.g. firearms laws don't stop criminals from using firearms, they simply make it more difficult for the law abiding to comply. Anti-smacking laws don't stop children being beaten to death, they simply remove an option on disciplining children from the law abiding.

Tickets only penalise the people who pay them. Higher penalties for not stopping just encourage people to not get caught.

I don't know what the answer is.

[The Stranger]

One more chase, one more death.

Whose fault is it, the POPO or the perpetrator?

What is the role of the Police?
Despite them having several definable roles, either way you look at it they exist to keep the populace safe.
Surely this is yet another example of an unequivocal FAIL.

The definition of insanity - doing the same thing every day and expecting a different outcome.
Got to make you wonder doesn't it?

[Devil]

This isn't a driving problem, or a police pursuit problem.
It all stems from youngsters not respecting authority. That is the issue that needs fixing.

[MSTRS]

Kids are kids, mate. They don't think. If the fuzz are going to chase them then they are going to run - it's 50% fun and 50% "it will never happen to me."
... Why not just triple the fine for "failing to stop"? That will make them think.


You really don't understand kids, do you. If they "don't think" then increasing/introducing a fine isn't gonna make any difference.
And this is ChCh...boi-racer capital of the world.

[scracha]

It's a cops job to catch people. We should be like the states : if a cop, pedestrian or passenger is killed as a result of a pursuit (whether is the runner or the cops who kill someone) then the runner is charged with manslaughter.

[ynot slow]

The kids who do a runner are thick idiots,probably in the slllllowwww class at school(if they went)but get this the only things they read and take in is when the police inspector says basically if speeds get too fast for the area the cops will abandone said chase,so these dipshits know go hard the cops will cancel the pursuit.

And most of these dipshits have no job,have $15000 fines and if caught get 3mths jail if community work hasn't been done satisfactory,(usually fines wiped at $100hr/community work)so they bleat about losing their car,tough shit losers.I have a $120 fine due in next 3 weeks or so,hmmm 1 hour community service please.

[bogan]

This isn't a driving problem, or a police pursuit problem.
It all stems from youngsters not respecting authority. That is the issue that needs fixing.

reckon that about sums it up, TPTB could change policy to make it a lot easier to respect cops, or the youngsters could take some personal responsibility, unfortunately we seem to be going in the opposite direction in both cases.

[rastuscat]

I have a retro view on this. Years ago it used to be that people tried to get away for one of these reasons

1. Stolen car
2. Disqualified driver
3. Drunk or drugged
4. Wanted on warrant

You can't know why someone is failing to stop unless they actually stop or crash. Sad as that is, it's largely true.

I have no idea what caused this one, but these days it's impossible to know what caused the decision to try to get away. Young men give it a go for seemingly insignificant reasons, too many to list.

Then the cop goes under the cosh for chasing them in the first place.

Sad all round.

[rastuscat]

I have a retro view on this. Years ago it used to be that people tried to get away for one of these reasons

1. Stolen car
2. Disqualified driver
3. Drunk or drugged
4. Wanted on warrant

You can't know why someone is failing to stop unless they actually stop or crash. Sad as that is, it's largely true.

I have no idea what caused this one, but these days it's impossible to know what caused the decision to try to get away. Young men give it a go for seemingly insignificant reasons, too many to list.

Then the cop goes under the cosh for chasing them in the first place.

Sad all round.

[CookMySock]

Tickets only penalise the people who pay them. Higher penalties for not stopping just encourage people to not get caught.Maybe, but they do cause a massive amount of fallout within the family. Even if they don't get paid, I think you underestimate their usefulness.


You really don't understand kids, do you. If they "don't think" then increasing/introducing a fine isn't gonna make any difference. There's no need to be rude. Kids do think about fines and keeping their drivers' license - it's very important to them.

What they don't get, is how they are at risk. All kids think they are invulnerable - it's just how they are wired.

Steve

[marty]

Kids do think about fines and keeping their drivers' license - it's very important to them.



and if they don't have a driver's licence?

further, my experience is that once they have an unpayable amount of fines (say over $1000 worth) they no longer care, as the writing is on the wall. increasing driving age to 18, roadside removal of licence if breached or offended against, or removal of the car if they have no licence, would go a long way to reducing problems.

[MSTRS]

Who's being rude? I just pointed out the contradiction in your post.
Whilst most would be worried about extra penalties etc, and/or would stop anyway, there are a significant number who just don't care. They are the ones we hear about getting fines wiped etc, and would drive whilst disqualified too. That number is increasing. And in ChCh appears to be a huge problem. (how many boi-racer problems do we hear about compared to that city?)

[Katman]

I have no problem with someone who kills themselves while trying to evade the police.

I have a very real problem though, if an innocent person is killed as a result of the pursuit.

It's all well and good saying that it would then be the fault of the person doing the runner, but it certainly doesn't bring that innocent person back.

This is why I feel the police need to take a very close look at the way they conduct their pursuits.

[CookMySock]

and if they don't have a driver's licence?

further, my experience is that once they have an unpayable amount of fines (say over $1000 worth) they no longer care, as the writing is on the wall. increasing driving age to 18, roadside removal of licence if breached or offended against, or removal of the car if they have no licence, would go a long way to reducing problems.Agreed. I wouldn't loan my car to an unlicensed driver with a "history."

My kids are do-gooders in comparison to what you're talking about, so thats out of my league.

Steve

[ynot slow]

What they don't get, is how they are at risk. All kids think they are invulnerable - it's just how they are wired.

Steve

True,and how often at a party do you see kids sitting listening in awe at older folks driving/riding exploits of years gone by,when the mk3 zephyr would just do the ton,the bsa similar,all the while the person hopped into the car pissed and drove home,knowing unless they did a stupid act the cops couldn't pull them up for dic.I know my uncle only got pulled up for dic 30yrs ago as he went down a newly made 1 way street the wrong way lol.

Times have changed but now the kids have cars capable of 2000km plus,with power steering,power disc brakes,airbags etc,all aids not available 25-30yrs ago,and the plethora of front wheel drive cars.The old escort,cortina etc was fun to try handbrakes,sliding etc in a paddock,also same with the dirt bikes we had on farms.

[Ixion]

Persoanlly, I'm really conflicted on this.

On the one hand, I figure that having a "no pursuit" policy is an invitation for dangerous or drunk drivers to think "I can get away with it, if a cop tries to stop me , I'll just run, and they can't chase me". Not to mention the real bad buggers with warrants out, or a car loaded with drugs or firearms. And, the reason that the cops have noticed the vehicle in the first place , is maybe because of dodgy driving. So just leaving it alone may be dangerous to the general public anyway.

But on the other hand , pursuits do seem to have a habit of ending in tears. That's not a question of blame , just practical reality. Is chasing going to cause more grief overall than letting someone 'get away with it ' ? . Bearing in mind, we can say that a driver who gets killed running 'deserves it', but often completely innocent people end up getting caught up in the action and killed or injured. I dunno.

I don't see the "get the rego, send a ticket" as being much help. It's pretty easy to have an untraceable number plate (or stolen plate/vehicle) , and people who are going to be all legit in that respect probably aren't the ones who are going to run anyway.

And there are already extra penalties for 'failing to stop'.

I do think that probably the introduction of demerits and the 28 day license suspension thing for 140kph has made running a lot more attractive.

When I was young , very few vehicles could sustain more than 150 kph for any length of time.If they could get there at all, few could. So a speed dangerous charge wasn't likely to be an issue. No demerits, no licence suspension, it made sense to stop and cop the fine.

But now it's real easy to find yourself north of 140kph, maybe without even intending to. So , if you're looking at suspension anyway, or if you're on 80 or 90 demerits, then running seems a lot more attractive.

And of course, we only hear of the ones that fail. A hell of a lot of the time, it works.

The old story , that legislators have wrestled with (or should wrestle with) since Mr Draco's epic fail. Increase the penalties for anything, and you make evasion more attractive.

I do note that those who crash often seem to be very bad drivers/riders. Or maybe pissed/stoned. And oddly, many of the crashes are NOT high speed ones (eg, < 200kph) . Often the pursued driver seems to lose it at relatively low speeds.

[Hiflyer]

Adults must learn that kids aren't going to get it.


Obviously neither are the adults

[duckonin]

True,and how often at a party do you see kids sitting listening in awe at older folks driving/riding exploits of years gone by,when the mk3 zephyr would just do the ton,the bsa similar,all the while the person hopped into the car pissed and drove home,knowing unless they did a stupid act the cops couldn't pull them up for dic.I know my uncle only got pulled up for dic 30yrs ago as he went down a newly made 1 way street the wrong way lol.

Times have changed but now the kids have cars capable of 2000km plus,with power steering,power disc brakes,airbags etc,all aids not available 25-30yrs ago,and the plethora of front wheel drive cars.The old escort,cortina etc was fun to try handbrakes,sliding etc in a paddock,also same with the dirt bikes we had on farms.


Good post, the first bit is 100% kids have ears,yep...

[onearmedbandit]

Install remote 'cut-off' switches in all vehicles, including motorcycles. Any sign of failing to stop, the car/bike is killed. Sure, it invades personal liberties. Sure it targets everyone, including the law abiding citizens who would never run. Sure a motorcycle that instantly loses power may drop. But no one will ever do a runner again. There's your answer.

Note - I don't agree with this, and I fear the day legislation like this is introduced. But this is the only way you will eliminate 'runners'.

[Ixion]

I didn't vote BTW. I think the issues are far more complex than a simple point-the-finger blame assignment.

[onearmedbandit]

I did. I boiled it down to the basics. Which are (in my eyes), police doing their job to protect the public, driver fails to pull over (chooses to ignore the laws required of them). Police persue said driver (could be anything from a little old lady who had an extra brandy at her friends to a child rapist with a boot load of 7yr olds). Driver fails to stop, crashes and dies. How can the police be to blame for that? Should they just have got his rego plate and waited until he disposed of the bodies and hope he opens his mail, or still lives at that address? Should the police have backed off until they received an evaluation of the driver?

Or should the driver just have pulled over when requested?

As much as we don't like certain road laws. As much as we think some police are arseholes. As much as we talk shit onlne about what wankers the police are but wouldn't say boo to their faces (does this sound like someone you know of?). As much as we think the laws don't apply to us, they do. You break them, that's your choice. But be prepared for the police to do their job, which is apprehending those that pose a risk to the general public. Sure, in an ideal world pursuits would always end with the criminal with his swagbag and mask apprehended and no one else involved/injured/killed. But in an ideal world there would have been no criminal in the first place...

[neels]

It's a problem that will never be solved, regardless of policy, penalties etc. At least this time they didn't take anybody else with them.

It sounds like calling this one a chase is stretching the description, more a case of the police turned on the lights and u-turned to chase, the driver took off and the police arrived at the accident scene to clean up the mess. It's pretty hard to blame the police for the dead one driving way too fast and crashing their car just because they did their job and attempted to stop someone driving erratically. There's a big difference between being right on the bumper of the car when it crashes, and being 800m away and not even seeing it happen.

And as previously posted, it's easy to do scary fast speeds in a modern car which is all good until you abruptly run out of talent. When I was a foolish young driver my cortina could do 100mph, but you damn well knew you were doing it and wouldn't have dreamed of trying to run from the cops in the thing, now 160kph is no big deal.

[Ixion]

The Government is hinting at tougher penalties for fleeing drivers


Like, tougher than going dead ? Let's try Logic 101 shall we

At present : If you're good you get away. Score. If not, you crash and die.
But, lots of people think the odds are good enough to chance it

Proposed: Tougher penalties. If they catch you. But if you're good you get way.Score. If not, you crash and die. So, why will people think ithat "tougher penalties" will make it not worth it?

I despair of the intellectucal capabilities of our illustrious leaders.

[onearmedbandit]

Agreed 100%. Tougher penalties are not the answer. Education won't work either. Back to my remote shut-down device. That'll work.

[jahrasti]

Like, tougher than going dead ? Let's try Logic 101 shall we

At present : If you're good you get away. Score. If not, you crash and die.
But, lots of people think the odds are good enough to chance it

Proposed: Tougher penalties. If they catch you. But if you're good you get way.Score. If not, you crash and die. So, why will people think ithat "tougher penalties" will make it not worth it?

I despair of the intellectucal capabilities of our illustrious leaders.

So thats it is it? You get away or you crash and die.

I despair of the intellectucal capabilities of our illustrious posters!

[Ixion]

Very technically difficult to do that on older vehicles, in a way that can't easily be bypassed.

If one wan'ted to be a devil's advocate one could suggest that if all NZ vehicles were governed to a max speed of (say) 120kph, and limited to (say) 50bhp for bikes and 100bhp for cars; except cop vehicles, then that would do it,and also probably have some beneficial effects on the road toll.

I'd VERY strongly oppose such a regime, but it's a slippery slope once you start down it.

[miloking]

I did. I boiled it down to the basics. Which are (in my eyes), police doing their job to protect the public, driver fails to pull over (chooses to ignore the laws required of them). Police persue said driver (could be anything from a little old lady who had an extra brandy at her friends to a child rapist with a boot load of 7yr olds). Driver fails to stop, crashes and dies. How can the police be to blame for that? Should they just have got his rego plate and waited until he disposed of the bodies and hope he opens his mail, or still lives at that address? Should the police have backed off until they received an evaluation of the driver?

Or should the driver just have pulled over when requested?

As much as we don't like certain road laws. As much as we think some police are arseholes. As much as we talk shit onlne about what wankers the police are but wouldn't say boo to their faces (does this sound like someone you know of?). As much as we think the laws don't apply to us, they do. You break them, that's your choice. But be prepared for the police to do their job, which is apprehending those that pose a risk to the general public. Sure, in an ideal world pursuits would always end with the criminal with his swagbag and mask apprehended and no one else involved/injured/killed. But in an ideal world there would have been no criminal in the first place...

Do you realy believe that rapist with boot load of 7yr olds will pull over because he is scared of some tougher penalty? So you are realy just targeting that old lady that had bit more brandy than she shouldnt...and we are back to square one.
Real offenders will never stop running until they are all dead or in jail!...and no amount of "tougher penalties" or "revisions of pursuit policies" is going to change that.

So real question is ARE YOU willing to risk lives of innocent people to pursue these serious offenders...till they crash and die and potentionaly take few people with them? Collateral damage in name of "justice" right?

I think its wrong!

BTW kill switch to stop cars? Every new technology can be bypassed/hacked..its only designed by people in the end.

[onearmedbandit]

Do you realy believe that rapist with boot load of 7yr olds will pull over because he is scared of some tougher penalty? So you are realy just targeting that old lady that had bit more brandy than she shouldnt...and we are back to square one.
Real offenders will never stop running until they are all dead or in jail!...and no amount of "tougher penalties" or "revisions of pursuit policies" is going to change that.

So real question is ARE YOU willing to risk lives of innocent people to pursue these serious offenders...till they crash and die and potentionaly taking few people with them? Collateral damage in name of "justice" right?

I think its wrong!

Where did I say I advocated tougher penalties for fleeing drivers? But I will say that if you are breaking the law while in your vehicle you should expect to get pulled over, and if you choose not to then you are the one endangering the public. Simple.

[miloking]

Go on then have another go at the POPO for pursuing a cage driver.

One more chase, one more death.

Whose fault is it, the POPO or the perpetrator?

NEITHER...

POPO is just following directions of scaly gentlewoman (thanks Ixion :D)

PERPETRATOR is just retarded and doesnt want to lose his car/bike/licence/job/money/freedom (so its almost understandable why he runs..so much at stake for price of so little)

WHO is at fault are people (politicians) that created pursuit policies, harsh punishments for traffic offences, harsh punishment for running (irony, i know but lots of people will impulsively start to run and then its hard to stop knowing you are going to jail anyway)...so all this made running worth while.

[Indoo]

harsh punishment for running .

And what harsh punishment would this be?

[The Stranger]

It all stems from youngsters not respecting authority. That is the issue that needs fixing.

Be careful what you wish for.
Youngsters should challenge authority. That is a part of an evolving society. If youngsters don't challenge we wind up with a society like the aborigines in Ausie - 200,000 yrs of doing everything the same until the white man came along.
It would be nice if they respected it whilst doing so, but that's not always possible.

[miloking]

Where did I say I advocated tougher penalties for fleeing drivers? But I will say that if you are breaking the law while in your vehicle you should expect to get pulled over, and if you choose not to then you are the one endangering the public. Simple.

no you didnt say that, i re-read the whole thread properly and it was someone else...so my bad for quoting your post.

anyway, tougher penaties are not a solution...

And i understand the "if you break the law, expect to be pulled over" and "if you run its YOU who endangers public" ...but the problem is it doesnt matter if the responsibility is yours or popos..

Innocent people died that had nothing to do with chase and they shouldnt have been put in that position by neither "runner" or popo....(not in this case i know but lots of passengers and people in other cars were killed before)

And since popo actualy has some responsibility towards protecting public they need to be the ones to stop the chase...if its too dangerous, and their training should tell them exactly at what point that is...

[miloking]

And what harsh punishment would this be?

$10000 and 3 months in jail... i believe? is that correct...

[Genestho]

NEITHER...

POPO is just following directions of scaly gentlewoman (thanks Ixion :D)

PERPETRATOR is just retarded and doesnt want to lose his car/bike/licence/job/money/freedom (so its almost understandable why he runs..so much at stake for price of so little)

WHO is at fault are people (politicians) that created pursuit policies, harsh punishments for traffic offences, harsh punishment for running (irony, i know but lots of people will impulsively start to run and then its hard to stop knowing you are going to jail anyway)...so all this made running worth while.

Bullshit, it begins and ends with 'you' if you don't respect the laws, when you screw up - man up - don't make excuses, and don't make it everybody elses problem.

More serious offenders are risking and taking lives - without pursuits, a cop could've stopped the drunk that killed my man, I'd have also had two friends alive as well.

Seven deaths out of how many succesfull pursuits? Anybody got that number?

And no - I'm not advocating harsher penalties here - just to make that clear.

[onearmedbandit]

True. Apportiating blame doesn't fix the problem. Remote cut-off devices, that fixes the problem. (Before you think I'm advocating those, I'm definitely not. But they would be the only way to eliminate runners. And even then the guy could get out of the car and run into a river holding a 5yr old hostage and kill them both.

[bogan]

no you didnt say that, i re-read the whole thread properly and it was someone else...so my bad for quoting your post.

anyway, tougher penaties are not a solution...

And i understand the "if you break the law, expect to be pulled over" and "if you run its YOU who endangers public" ...but the problem it doesnt matter if the responsibility is you or the popo..

Innocent people died that had nothing to do with chase and they shouldnt have been put in that position by neither "runner" or popo....

And since popo actualy has some responsibility towards protecting public the need to be the ones to stop the chase...if its too dangerous, and their training should tell them exactly at what point that is...

you haven't thought it through, if the cops don't try to catch you when you run, why wouldn't you run? in fact, if you take off or replace the plate why would you bother with the laws at all?

How bout creative penalties, 3 strikes law, but instead of crushing your car you are sterilised and car sold or crushed too for good measure, selective breed the scum out of society (a stike accumulates from any criminal conviction btw). Or another outside the box solution, if you run, the cops choose the place and take you out, less innocent bystanders hurt that way.

[miloking]

Bullshit, it begins and ends with 'you' if you don't respect the laws, when you screw up - man up - don't make excuses, and don't make it everybody elses problem.

More serious offenders are risking and taking lives - without pursuits, a cop could've stopped the drunk that killed my man, I'd have also had two friends alive as well.

Seven deaths out of how many succesfull pursuits? Anybody got that number?

And no - I'm not advocating harsher penalties here - just to make that clear.

YEAH i agree..it begins and ends with "me" the runner...but innocent people can still get hurt regardless of who is at fault! So are you happy to sacrifice those lives to get the the "speeder" or drunk or even the rapist behind bars?

[CookMySock]

Youngsters should challenge authority. That is a part of an evolving society. If youngsters don't challenge we wind up with a society like the aborigines in Ausie - 200,000 yrs of doing everything the same until the white man came along. It would be nice if they respected it whilst doing so, but that's not always possible.Fully agree here. I think it's important to not overtly hold youngsters to authority - it just makes them angrily back up against the wall and stand up to you no matter what happens - that's not a good thing.

I admit it's hard showing "authority" to kids and not being rough about it, but there has to be a way, unless we'll create a society full of hard-nosed assholes who respect no one, least of all themselves. How will the law handle those people?

Steve

[OnCam]

i didnt read from the beginning, but i think its both police and speeding drivers fault.. the speeder is putting his and public lives at risk, breaking the speed limit.. yet the police are encouraging the situation (or "trying to stop it") by now becoming involved you have 2 high speeding cars, flashing lights or not the physics of driving doesnt change nor does human error, now we almost all know that death or a huge accident is the outcome of some pursuits, see it all the time.. but yes there is the chance to evade an yes occasionally ive heard of the people being caught, some have even been let off with a warning with from the horses mouth "i thought you were a drug dealer hence the speed" (black zx6r clocked at 135kph) NO SHIT! an was let off with a slap on the wrist after he tried to gap it down a no exit road an lost them for 15mins hiding out.. so some cops are chasing even just to give a warning WTF.. i know of another one like this also

there needs to be another way, i think they are doing a good thing by reducing the costs of fines an increasing the demerits though, but chasing and pursuing is another level of experience way out of the general police experience, so many variable factors that come into driving a car at full pace.. these police (humans) not bloody greg murphy +9999 do not practise racing on a track, from what i know some cone work is done in training an some basic pursuit manouvers but doesnt involve streets with real people cars traffic intersections etc

correct me if you know a cop who can actually drive the balls off those commodors SAFELY around a real environment, i dont mean in top speed/in a straight line

[imdying]

What they don't get, is how they are at risk. All kids think they are invulnerable - it's just how they are wired.Nah mate, you're right about kids being kids, but kids being kids means they'll just drive without a license, they already do!

[Taz]

It's just another dead person. He wasn't in my monkey sphere....

[onearmedbandit]

No one is saying don't stand up to authority, if that's your kick. And it was/still is mine. But don't go blaming everyone else when YOU fuck up.

[CookMySock]

Nah mate, you're right about kids being kids, but kids being kids means they'll just drive without a license, they already do!Yeah well now we're talking about the adults being responsible. I'll let my kids break the law in very small amounts - we all do anyway, and we have a good idea about what is smart or wise, and we have the ability to think, and usually I'll give them a solid lecture, I mean safety briefing beforehand.

Steve

[Genestho]

Here's some perspective - Data is old and not applicable to this year - which is possibly not much use.

Police Pursuit Review 04 - 07 (http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2007/pursuits-policy-review/index.html)
Injuries & Fatalities
The following information relates to recorded serious injuries and fatalities. In 99 percent of cases there was no serious injury or fatality associated with the outcome of the pursuit. In the 63 cases where crashes occurred, 106 people in offending vehicles were reported to have been seriously injured. Fatalities to those in offender vehicles accounted for 0.2 percent of all pursuit outcomes (10 crashes in which 12 people in offender vehicles were killed). There were no police officer fatalities from pursuits and only one reported injury crash, involving 3 police officers. Similarly, no other road users or pedestrians were killed during these pursuits, although 14 people not involved in the event were reported as seriously injured.

[Genestho]

YEAH i agree..it begins and ends with "me" the runner...but innocent people can still get hurt regardless of who is at fault! So are you happy to sacrifice those lives to get the the "speeder" or drunk or even the rapist behind bars?
I do believe I said "And no - I'm not advocating harsher penalties", there are other ways.

[Littleman]

no you didnt say that, i re-read the whole thread properly and it was someone else...so my bad for quoting your post.

anyway, tougher penaties are not a solution...

And i understand the "if you break the law, expect to be pulled over" and "if you run its YOU who endangers public" ...but the problem is it doesnt matter if the responsibility is yours or popos..

Innocent people died that had nothing to do with chase and they shouldnt have been put in that position by neither "runner" or popo....(not in this case i know but lots of passengers and people in other cars were killed before)

And since popo actualy has some responsibility towards protecting public they need to be the ones to stop the chase...if its too dangerous, and their training should tell them exactly at what point that is...

Perhaps if you got less hysterical and emotiional about the matter theres a chance(outside) that you might put a more cogent argument forward.

Deep breaths.

[Littleman]

What is the role of the Police?
Despite them having several definable roles, either way you look at it they exist to keep the populace safe.
Surely this is yet another example of an unequivocal FAIL.

The definition of insanity - doing the same thing every day and expecting a different outcome.
Got to make you wonder doesn't it?

Your logic is excellent if every pursuit resulted in a death I guess.

[schrodingers cat]

Your logic is excellent if every pursuit resulted in a death I guess.

Can we legislate for that?

I actually subcribe to the rule of law. Greatest good for greatest number etc. I'm not perfect. The police, being human, aren't either. I accept that. I'd rather have an imperfect Police force than none at all.

Please stop making excuses for 'young people' In life you make choices and accept the consequences - it's always been that way.
This young fellow made a bad choice. The law of the jungle got him - hard!

As always, my sympathy is with the family and the families of the two 'victims' he had in the car with him. As for him - he's dead and a far more effective lesson to his peers than any fine or whatever.

Have you ever noticed how every young person that dies is a promising model citizen?

It is a priviledge to use the roads - not a right. We all know the rules. We all make invidivual choices. We all accept that there consequences and that we don't always know what they will be

[The Stranger]

Your logic is excellent if every pursuit resulted in a death I guess.

I was kind of hoping that the Police could learn before it got to that stage.

Here I was thinking the Police were out to reduce road deaths - The Police have to be about the 3rd or 4th leading cause of road deaths by now don't they?

[The Stranger]

Fully agree here.

Uh oh, now I know I'm wrong.

[Rogue Rider]

We could learn alot from the USA. Over there they have several means to pursuits and catching crims. The Popo over there are very dedicated, and have no problem using force, and using force effectively.

Policing the roads requires common sense and sound decision making. They need to determine safe standards.

If a pursuit is going to occur, first they need to ascertain that it is safe to do so. If it is safe, pursue with the intent to stopping the vehicle. If the vehicle refuses to stop, chase should be withdrawn and helicopter or backup collected ahead. Follow ups at speed a sensless as it just makes driving and drivers more erratic.


in usa they use road spikes, helicopters, cars as weapons and forcing cars off roads, and guns. They seem to be affective, and not kill too many bystanders either..........................

Perhaps popo here should use more of the Eagle helicopter instead of pushing young dumb ass drivers.

[Littleman]

Uh oh, now I know I'm wrong.

I know we all enjoy stats.....

give us these ones. XXXX

[The Stranger]

I know we all enjoy stats.....

give us these ones. XXXX

The stats for me being wrong? You know that's statistically insignificant - much like the number of times I've lied about cooking dinner.

[Woodman]

Can't blame the police on this, although what ixion says about it being complex is correct.

At the end of the day the cops requested by way of their sirens that these guys pull over.
They chose to ignore that request.
If they had pulled over one of them would be stilll alive.

There has to be a solution somewhere, but it cannot be in favour of the criminal. That is just wrong.

[CookMySock]

In 99 percent of cases there was no serious injury or fatality associated with the outcome of the pursuit.What is a "pursuit" ? Is it when an officer turns his lights on and pulls a car over, or is it when he is involved in a high-speed extended chase?

Steve

[Ixion]

That's a very good point. It has a major effect on the stats.

Say I am tootling along somewhat illegally, and Officer Bumblebee spots me, but has to turn round and wait for a gap etc etc , so that I am a couple of kilometres away before he gets after me. He belts up the road with his lights and siren on , whilst I am still tootling along oblivious to the fact that he's trying to catch me (let's assume he's a mufti). But, when I do see him behind me, I immediately pull over and stop. Which is pretty much the story with 99% of cases, I imagine.

Now, is that a pursuit?

Because if it is , the 99% figure quoted somewhere (by TGW I think) is sort of meaningless. What one would like to know is how many actual *chases*, ie where the naughty person is actually running, end up in tears.

[miloking]

That's a very good point. It has a major effect on the stats.

Say I am tootling along somewhat illegally, and Officer Bumblebee spots me, but has to turn round and wait for a gap etc etc , so that I am a couple of kilometres away before he gets after me. He belts up the road with his lights and siren on , whilst I am still tootling along oblivious to the fact that he's trying to catch me (let's assume he's a mufti). But, when I do see him behind me, I immediately pull over and stop. Which is pretty much the story with 99% of cases, I imagine.

Now, is that a pursuit?

Because if it is , the 99% figure quoted somewhere (by TGW I think) is sort of meaningless. What one would like to know is how many actual *chases*, ie where the naughty person is actually running, end up in tears.

i thought its not considered pursuit until driver is made aware without any doubt that he is being signaled to stop..so in theory up until mr.bumblebee catches up with you its not a pursuit.

However if you notice in the news article it lists Mr.Brown's "accident" as a victim of police pursuit...and we all know that it couldnt have been one until the mystery ute was aware of being signaled to stop. But i guess its sounds better that way..."victim of pursuit" vs "victim of police stupidity"... and speaking of stupidity, kind of wonder how is that "investigation" coming along there Mr.Tooman

[Ixion]

Eh? What news article. I assumed that the OP was about this one . (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10653216)

No Mr Brown and no ute.

[miloking]

Eh? What news article. I assumed that the OP was about this one . (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10653216)

No Mr Brown and no ute.

I didnt read the nzherald one, there was a clone of that article on stuff...and at the bottom they had listed last years pursuit accidents that cost lives...and one of them was Mr.Brown, and several others including few where innocent people died that were not the "runners"...mostly passengers etc.
but yeah... probably just media labeling things as it suits them.

[onearmedbandit]

Actually, I'm going to campaign the government on fitting 'remote-kill' devices to all road vehicles. I'm going to do this tomorrow. I don't care whether it saves lives or not, but it will end threads like this one.

[The Stranger]

Actually, I'm going to campaign the government on fitting 'remote-kill' devices to all road vehicles. I'm going to do this tomorrow. I don't care whether it saves lives or not, but it will end threads like this one.

While you're at it can you do something about the waving, oil, chain lube and "please help me cause I'm too stoopid to decide which bike I want" threads.

[miloking]

While you're at it can you do something about the waving, oil, chain lube and "please help me cause I'm too stoopid to decide which bike I want" threads.

i dont mind the oil/chain lube threads but those "getting my full what bike to get" are killing me too :D

[Genestho]

What is a "pursuit" ? Is it when an officer turns his lights on and pulls a car over, or is it when he is involved in a high-speed extended chase?

Steve
I found the following definition/ info in a report - "Pursuits the case for change"> link (http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2005/pursuits/pursuits-the-case-for-change.pdf)- dated 05, it's got some good info including a study and data from pg 44 regarding fatal pursuits from '96 to 2002

"Neither the Crimes Act nor the Land Transport Act defines the word “pursuit”. "


“A pursuit exists when the driver of a motor vehicle knowing that they are being
signalled by a police officer to stop, fails to stop, takes deliberate action to escape
apprehension and Police commence action to pursue the escaping vehicle.”

"The key ingredients of a pursuit are the intention by one party to flee or
try to escape and the intention by another party to pursue and apprehend."

Looking at the original 04 - 07 police pursuit summary I posted previously..it shows:

"Maximum pursuit speeds spanned a wide range, from 15 to 230 km/hr; however, fewer than 2 percent were under 50km/hr.

-Less than 1 percent were over 200km/hr.
- 51.9% of cases maximum speeds were between 75 and 125km/hr
- 34.4% were reported to have been between 125 and 175 km/hr.
- 29.9% - The largest single category was 100-124km/hr
- 22% percent at 75-99/hr"


That's a very good point. It has a major effect on the stats.

What one would like to know is how many actual *chases*, ie where the naughty person is actually running, end up in tears.
Indeed, from the original quote and link I posted - should've have been bolded also:

(So, from 04-07, there were 6000 recorded "pursuits")

"In the 63 cases where crashes occurred, 106 people in offending vehicles were reported to have been seriously injured.

Fatalities to those in offender vehicles accounted for 0.2 percent of all pursuit outcomes (10 crashes in which 12 people in offender vehicles were killed).

There were no police officer fatalities from pursuits and only one reported injury crash, involving 3 police officers.

Similarly, no other road users or pedestrians were killed during these pursuits, although 14 people not involved in the event were reported as seriously injured."
(Apologies for the rather large post!)

[davereid]

I would be absolutely wild if a police pursuit resulted in the death or injury of an innocent member of my family.

But I think a failure to pursue would result in an even greater rate of run-offs, resulting in even more risk for me and other innocent people.

What has changed over the years ?

1) Higher penalties create a motive to flee.
When I was younger, I seldom stopped for the Traffic Department until I had "had a go". But I never tried to get away at 10/10ths of my ability, because the penalties were not that serious. I was unlikely to lose my license/vehicle etc on the side of the road if caught. It was never going to happen that if caught my car would be confiscated, or crushed. And the fine was never that high that it was beyond reasonable reach. So I would "have a go", but would soon stop if it got dangerous.

2) The affordable car is now fast and reliable.
Many 20 year old cars with only minor tweaking are now a match for the standard police car. The runner has become popular because it is so often successful.

3) We spend 18 years telling young kids they are special, and they can't be disciplined, hurt or made to feel threatened. They believe it.

4) All young people know they wont crash.

[Patrick]

Kids are kids, mate. They don't think. If the fuzz are going to chase them then they are going to run - it's 50% fun and 50% "it will never happen to me."

Adults must learn that kids aren't going to get it. You can't fix this. You have to find another way.

I blame these kids parents - for not smacking them up side of ear at a young age....

I don't get it - if the pigs have their rego plate then why not post the ticket to them in the mail? So fucking what if they don't to pull him over - build a fucking bridge.

Coz the address changed 5 houses ago, coz the car is stolen, coz the driver is drunk/being a dickhead/disqualified or all of these, coz the ticket means nothing.... just a few ideas.....

If chasing them down is going to be a disaster then why do it, other than just on principle? I'd hazard a guess there is far more likely to be a horrific outcome in the chase-down then if they just let them go.

Just so long as its a disaster only to the lawbreaker. That would be sweet.

Why not apply legislation to fix it? Take the drink-driving situation for example - a driver refuses to supply a blood sample and faces a far more hefty fine than if they had just taken the hit. Why not have an "evading police" charge, where a vehicle clearly attempts to evade police then they face a far more hefty fine than if they just had stopped. Surely it's not hard to run a camera in the patrol unit? Why not just triple the fine for "failing to stop"? That will make them think.

Yer what? The penalty is the same. The outcome is the same. They don't even have to pay analysts fees or doctors fees if they refuse outright. They actually win.... As for the camera idea, now that is a great idea.. Next thing you know, those cops in the States will be doing that.... hang on.... what??? They have already had them for over 30 years???? What is NZ's excuse for not having them then??????????????????
Steve


The kids who do a runner are thick idiots,probably in the slllllowwww class at school(if they went)but get this the only things they read and take in is when the police inspector says basically if speeds get too fast for the area the cops will abandone said chase,so these dipshits know go hard the cops will cancel the pursuit.

And most of these dipshits have no job,have $15000 fines and if caught get 3mths jail if community work hasn't been done satisfactory,(usually fines wiped at $100hr/community work)so they bleat about losing their car,tough shit losers.I have a $120 fine due in next 3 weeks or so,hmmm 1 hour community service please.

Make that 10 minutes community work for that $120 - time off for good behaviour................


I have no problem with someone who kills themselves while trying to evade the police.

I have a very real problem though, if an innocent person is killed as a result of the pursuit.

It's all well and good saying that it would then be the fault of the person doing the runner, but it certainly doesn't bring that innocent person back.

This is why I feel the police need to take a very close look at the way they conduct their pursuits.

You should see the policy. Viewed and reviewed, compulsory training for all...., The vast majority do stop..... just the oxygen thieves don't, and that is the problem......


$10000 and 3 months in jail... i believe? is that correct...

Maximum. No one gets maximums.............. or anywhere near a maximum............... Convicted and Discharged was the norm, so that really taught them........................ NOT!!!!!!

The only change was on 1 Dec 2009, when the law changed for Failing to Stop. There is now a mandatory additional disqualification added, to be on top of ANY disqualification imposed for any other charge.


Your logic is excellent if every pursuit resulted in a death I guess.

So long as it is the oxygen thief.... that would be good.


We could learn alot from the USA. Over there they have several means to pursuits and catching crims.

The PITT maneouvre? Had it here, and the bosses said, "nah, it scratches the paint so you had better stop that....." And they shoot em over there....... Hey! There is a fix.....

........ chase should be withdrawn and helicopter or backup collected ahead. Business as usual then.....? Except there is only the one copper chopper in NZ. And Auckland has that.....

in usa they use road spikes, so do we.....helicopters, so do we.... but only in Auckland......cars as weapons and forcing cars off roads, so DID we..... up until 1997..... and guns.(Yep.... got them too.... but not really allowed to use them...... They seem to be affective, and not kill too many bystanders either..........................

Perhaps popo here should use more of the Eagle helicopter instead of pushing young dumb ass drivers.

Perhaps people should see just how often the helecopter is used for pursuits, armed robberies, burglars on, whatever you like, in a city of over a million, 24/7.... only in Auckland though....... One chopper can only be used in one place at one time. Pursuits go off all too often....... in different parts, at the same time.... at times......


i thought its not considered pursuit until driver is made aware without any doubt that he is being signaled to stop..so in theory up until mr.bumblebee catches up with you its not a pursuit.

Correct......

However if you notice in the news article it lists Mr.Brown's "accident" as a victim of police pursuit...and we all know that it couldnt have been one until the mystery ute was aware of being signaled to stop. But i guess its sounds better that way..."victim of pursuit" vs "victim of police stupidity"... and speaking of stupidity, kind of wonder how is that "investigation" coming along there Mr.Tooman

Surprised the media didn't use that as a headline......

On Closeup, they mentioned that Mr Oxygen Thief was already disqualified. An independant witness was saying how bad his dickhead driving was already and that the crash was done and dusted before the cops pulled into view.......

NO loss.

And according to the cross his dipshit mates have put up for him, he has a Fucking Tiny Penis apparently......