ACC protest movement dead?

[cowpoos]

I' going to offend some people..constructively..

I think this ACC protest movement thingy with the bikers is dead.

It seems the majority of bikers don't care. and by not including a larger group of people [non bikers] by manipulating the argument a tiny bit and getting more lobby groups on board..
Annoying the public by taking over parking spots in a mall??? I mean whos fucking dumb idea was that?? it really got the public on side didn't it??...
So yeah...your now left with a couple of dozen people protesting.

Its not achieved much really...other than to teach politicians that Bikers are a push over.

They played the typical ploy of we'll rape,pillage and burn the village....and since they're only raping and pillaging now...everyone seems grateful ?!?

there is an art to this protesting stuff...the media soon get bored...the public don't like to be inconvenienced...hmm

[MSTRS]

The only reason the public aren't on board is because they do not realise the changes to ACC affect them as well. Monetarily, the effect on them is much smaller and the loss of services etc doesn't matter (until you need them, that is).
All protests involving being in front of the public have been aimed at getting them to understand this, but like the bloke on his way to work, negotiating the motorway in his car whilst simultaneously reading the paper, having a shave and getting his caffeine level up, the public aren't paying attention.

[Genestho]

IMO - There is an art, part of it is persistance, realising that you can't and wont please everyone all the time, and keeping on, when alot have given up and moved on.
Life gets in the way, and that's the way it goes.

Knowing when to be controversial - knowing when to be gracefull.
Thinking and trying new ways to garner attention.

To be honest pissing off poli's isn't always the way to go, because communication needs to be wide open to share ideas - shut that down and you really have nothing, at the same time there's no reason to be anyones 'lap dog' as I've read Ixion accuse others of.

[Scuba_Steve]

I say rally up the troops its time for a coup d'état!!!. Whoo!

[CookMySock]

There is an art, part of it is persistance [....] Knowing when to be controversial - knowing when to be gracefull [...] Thinking and trying new ways to garner attention [....] pissing off poli's isn't always the way to go [....] It has been interesting for me to see the art and science of this, but I feel I could do more if the theory was shared a little more with us.

Perhaps it was a case of "the battle plan never survives its' release to the enemy" but the by-product of that was, we don't really know what is going on, and we feel that we can't offer anything since the experts are on the case.

Steve

[AllanB]

Dead, gone and we took it up the arse. It just was not as large as we expected ........ thankfully.

Until the next round I guess. Don't fall off your bikes!

[Quasievil]

Two Words Mr Poos , this says it all

NEW ZEALAND

[bogan]

Two Words Mr Poos , this says it all

NEW ZEALAND

precede them with 'get the fuck out of' and you got a plan!

I wouldn't say it's dead, confused, and lazy yes, but theres still heaps of diehard protestors about. An easy to follow well organised unified campaign could fire up the number again I reckon, but fuck knows how to get one of those :girlfight:

[Mom]

Annoying the public by taking over parking spots in a mall??? I mean whos fucking dumb idea was that?? it really got the public on side didn't it??...

Dpex...say no more. It never happened btw.

[avgas]

I don't have time to protest. I am still trying to find time to ride the damn thing......or fix it for that matter.

[cowpoos]

Dpex...say no more. It never happened btw.

Well it made it on to radio live news?!? Not saying your wrong mom...but it was reported [maybe as a planned event...callers to talk back decided bikers were a pack of childish wankers after hearing that]

[cowpoos]

I don't have time to protest. I am still trying to find time to ride the damn thing......or fix it for that matter.

Try spending less time on KB making excused for not riding?? :P

[cowpoos]

Two Words Mr Poos , this says it all

NEW ZEALAND

No...your wrong....it should be political correctness and this fricken belief that everyones a winner.....its ingrained in a number of generations now...don't know how to fight to win or achieve a goal or ambition. Scared to aspire to be someone or something...because the PC brigade will try to drag you down to their lazy pitiful fucking making excuses for being lazy and thick as shit level...

[Mom]

Well it made it on to radio live news?!? Not saying your wrong mom...but it was reported [maybe as a planned event...callers to talk back decided bikers were a pack of childish wankers after hearing that]

It never happened, he is and was full of shit. He underestimated the damage his "protest wank" would have on the general population, though he is very proud of it. He has little credence with the media as a result of the non-event he announced. It was widely and totally condemned by bikers too.

But poos, I am not about to argue with you tonight, by all means be my guest and continue to "offend constructively" the ones that continue to say what is happening to ACC is not on.

[Headbanger]

The only reason the public aren't on board is because they do not realise the changes to ACC affect them as well.

Or.

They are quite happy for the range of services to be scaled back, and think its fitting that the more "at risk,but with money" slice of the population pay a bit more.

[cowpoos]

"offend constructively".

My interpretation of offend constructively....is that I like and respect alot of people involved with this...but don't necessarily agree with aspects of it or how it was run.

But...I am not going to pretend that I have the all the answers or pretend that I could or would do better.

[Kornholio]

Two Words Mr Poos , this says it all

NEW ZEALAND

Poos is typical 'New Zealand' tho (well from where I come from anyway) :)

[Howie]

I' going to offend some people..constructively..

I think this ACC protest movement thingy with the bikers is dead.

It seems the majority of bikers don't care. and by not including a larger group of people [non bikers] by manipulating the argument a tiny bit and getting more lobby groups on board..
Annoying the public by taking over parking spots in a mall??? I mean whos fucking dumb idea was that?? it really got the public on side didn't it??...
So yeah...your now left with a couple of dozen people protesting.

Its not achieved much really...other than to teach politicians that Bikers are a push over.

They played the typical ploy of we'll rape,pillage and burn the village....and since they're only raping and pillaging now...everyone seems grateful ?!?

there is an art to this protesting stuff...the media soon get bored...the public don't like to be inconvenienced...hmm

So what would you suggest is done to unite Bikers, and others to protest not just the increase to bike levies, but all the changes to Acc?

The art of protesting is to get and keep a large number of people involved. If you read up on all the changes they well at some stage probably affect most New zealanders, but with out a united front from a large number you get changes made, the only way I see of doing that is to make it an election issue somehow.


The only reason the public aren't on board is because they do not realise the changes to ACC affect them as well. Monetarily, the effect on them is much smaller and the loss of services etc doesn't matter (until you need them, that is).
All protests involving being in front of the public have been aimed at getting them to understand this, but like the bloke on his way to work, negotiating the motorway in his car whilst simultaneously reading the paper, having a shave and getting his caffeine level up, the public aren't paying attention.

Do you really think they aren't paying attention, or just don't know what to do about it. If you look at a lot of the crrent changes individually, they all attack minority groups, that are easy to control individually. What is needed is a united front from everyone, but to do that needs a good leadership base. I have no idea how uniting such diverse groups to have a joint protest could be organised. The message is still going out by individual groups of people about how the changes affect them.

I notice at the head of this forum that there is a mailing list of over 16000 address that has been created tby this forum is that list avaliable to the other organisations that are linked on the header to get more information out from them? Is it even legal to let them use it?



precede them with 'get the fuck out of' and you got a plan!

I wouldn't say it's dead, confused, and lazy yes, but theres still heaps of diehard protestors about. An easy to follow well organised unified campaign could fire up the number again I reckon, but fuck knows how to get one of those :girlfight:

I would tend to agree that it is confused, so how do we find the leadership to unconfuse it and present a united front to the Govt? we as one group of a small minority seem to have many different views on what is the best way forward.

Attached are some excerts from the latest "the Transport worker" which is the RMTU (rail and maritine union) magazine. These make interesting reading.

211527 211528
These first two pages are about how ACC classes some work place motor vehicle accidents as motor vehicle accidents, and not as work place accidents, so that they come out of the motor vehicle fund, and not the emplyors leviy

211526 211529

These two describe some of the changes that come into effect as of the 1st of july 2010.

The full magazine can be downloaded Here ( http://www.rmtunion.org.nz/publications/documents/TTW2-FINAL.pdf) as a pdf file but it is about 3.7 MB

[MSTRS]

Or.

They are quite happy for the range of services to be scaled back, and think its fitting that the more "at risk,but with money" slice of the population pay a bit more.

Somewhere in the middle, probably. The old "I'm all right. It's not costing me much"...
Perhaps Mrand Mrs Average don't get off their arse is because they are not part of an organised, affected collective (like bikers, for instance), so they don't consider they have a voice?

[avgas]

Try spending less time on KB making excused for not riding?? :P
haha not going to happen. I would have to look like I'm working then.

[onearmedbandit]

Two Words Mr Poos , this says it all

NEW ZEALAND


No...your wrong....it should be political correctness and this fricken belief that everyones a winner.....its ingrained in a number of generations now...don't know how to fight to win or achieve a goal or ambition. Scared to aspire to be someone or something...because the PC brigade will try to drag you down to their lazy pitiful fucking making excuses for being lazy and thick as shit level...

When I first read Quasies post I thought 'another person knocking NZ in a wild generalisation'. But then I thought of Italy, where if they don't like a law they ignore it, if they can't ignore it they change the government. Remember the protests in France with the truckers? Because (I think) of our national history, we are a bunch of push overs. Not so in Italy.

[miloking]

I moved on to my private protest...REGO on HOLD for all my vehicles, and i suggest you all do the same.

And fuck paying the fines right away, i will contest them in court if you have to...try to pay them off $10 a week if i end up getting any.

[bogan]

I moved on to my private protest...REGO on HOLD for all my vehicles, and i suggest you all do the same.

And fuck paying the fines right away, i will contest them in court if you have to...try to pay them off $10 a week if i end up getting any.

Some of us don't have that option (public parking, etc), and those the do take that way out mean revenue goes down, but expenses stay the same, I'm guessing they'll put up the rego's for those still paying to compensate in a few years. And put up the fine for no reg even sooner.

[Waxxa]

bikers will re-unite when we get hit with another $300+ increase on our regos next year.

The public will unite when they realise all the services are gone and will have to stump up money for their rehabilitation.

[GOONR]

This (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10655132) in the harold might kick a few up the arse!

[bogan]

This (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10655132) in the harold might kick a few up the arse!

i knew bout the bikes bit, but did not know vans were going up 46% thats fucking tempting to put it on hold for the amount i use it

[Pixie]

I' going to offend some people..constructively..

I think this ACC protest movement thingy with the bikers is dead.

It seems the majority of bikers don't care. and by not including a larger group of people [non bikers] by manipulating the argument a tiny bit and getting more lobby groups on board..
Annoying the public by taking over parking spots in a mall??? I mean whos fucking dumb idea was that?? it really got the public on side didn't it??...
So yeah...your now left with a couple of dozen people protesting.

Its not achieved much really...other than to teach politicians that Bikers are a push over.

They played the typical ploy of we'll rape,pillage and burn the village....and since they're only raping and pillaging now...everyone seems grateful ?!?

there is an art to this protesting stuff...the media soon get bored...the public don't like to be inconvenienced...hmm

They are just kiwis
they would rather bend over and be fucked up the arse than get off their arse

[Mom]

i knew bout the bikes bit, but did not know vans were going up 46% thats fucking tempting to put it on hold for the amount i use it

You just wait, there are so many areas that are affected by the changes to ACC, I think people are naive to think that the issues have gone away, I believe they are only just beginning.

[Pixie]

I don't have time to protest. I am still trying to find time to ride the damn thing......or fix it for that matter.

Well,let the PTB get their way,and in a few years you won't even need to find the time for that.

[bogan]

You just wait, there are so many areas that are affected by the changes to ACC, I think people are naive to think that the issues have gone away, I believe they are only just beginning.

so why are bikers the only ones getting fired up about it? It's not like others haven't been informed, they just don't seem to care, must reckon tptb know whats best I spose.

[BoristheBiter]

It is standard divide and conquer.
They got us to jump up and down about our ACC costs and left out the bit about the cars vans etc.
So while we were doing our protests car drivers were going "not going to effect us" and now its just to late.

we lost momentum after the bikeoi. it should have been every week until now, not lets see what happens.
we also focused too much on us (allthough to be fare we were being hit the hardest) and while we said "who's next" we didn't get enough of the rest of NZ behind our campain by showing them what they would be paying.
We also let the media control what was seen by the rest of NZ.

after the bikeoi we should have gone harder untill they backed down but as we do in NZ we got upset, talked about it, and just took it up the arse, and there is no point getting the nats out and labour back in as they have already said they wont change it back.

[Mom]

so why are bikers the only ones getting fired up about it? It's not like others haven't been informed, they just don't seem to care, must reckon tptb know whats best I spose.

Apathy, pure and simple, combine that with ignorance and hey presto no reaction. The bikers were slammed hard deliberatly to get a huge reaction. This was so big it overshadowed all the other changes to a degree, people saw us complaining and protesting and did not investigate any changes that were affecting themselves. Then they reduced our increases hoping that would be the end of it. I really hope it is not the end of it. Even the unions had trouble mustering a BIG protest in Wellington, despite paying for advertising.

[bogan]

Apathy, pure and simple, combine that with ignorance and hey presto no reaction. The bikers were slammed hard deliberatly to get a huge reaction. This was so big it overshadowed all the other changes to a degree, people saw us complaining and protesting and did not investigate any changes that were affecting themselves. Then they reduced our increases hoping that would be the end of it. I really hope it is not the end of it. Even the unions had trouble mustering a BIG protest in Wellington, despite paying for advertising.

Yes I think you are right, were NZ'rs always this apathetic? One of the annoying things is your average worker has been hit with a bigger increase than the bike rego (iirc), still they do nothing about it. The union protest was pathetic, ntohing against the organisers, just the lazy fuckers who didn't show up, us bikers who basically only came to rubberneck just about outnumbered the unionists.

[MSTRS]

Yes I think you are right, were NZ'rs always this apathetic? One of the annoying things is your average worker has been hit with a bigger increase than the bike rego (iirc), still they do nothing about it. The union protest was pathetic, ntohing against the organisers, just the lazy fuckers who didn't show up, us bikers who basically only came to rubberneck just about outnumbered the unionists.

I believe there was some 300 of us, but only some 50 unionists.
It was a sad joke...

[Bald Eagle]

I believe there was some 300 of us, but only some 50 unionists.
It was a sad joke...

Wasn't worth the days annual leave it cost me to outnumber the unionists. won't be relying on them for anything in the future.

[Fatt Max]

Wasn't worth the days annual leave it cost me to outnumber the unionists. won't be relying on them for anything in the future.

Must admit that was a shit poor show by those guys. Never really got to the bottom of why there numbers were so small.

Look, it is tough but surley we must carry on. IMO we need to be seen as the flag bearers for all New Zealanders and that has been the focus of the last couple of rides. The BRONZ meet at the weekend was an attempt at rarking some numbers (and for that there should be a measure of credit) but the effect is still not getting through.

The 'divide and conquer' comment made earlier is so true. We are fighhting spin docters here who are good at turning things to their advantage, ie bikers bickering between themselves etc etc, that is primo ammunition for these people.

So, unite as a community, not a club, organisation, gang or whatever, a COMMUNITY. Get some media involved and push the 'We Are Here For All NZ'ers' and spread the message as to how we are all getting it up the jacksy. Jeez I know it is a romantic thought, can you imagine all bikers joining up with the country behind us, co-ordinated protests across all the main centres. Letters to every MP, lobbying local and national government, chipping in and getting a full page ad in the main newspapers, FFS starting a political party ($500 fee and some signatures)........

I for one am still with this action. I believe in ACC being put right because it needs to be so, that way I know my boy will be ok when he grows up. The system belongs to the people of this great country, thats right kiddywinks, you and me....about time we went and got it back....

[Bald Eagle]

I agree with everything you say, what leaves me puzzled is how some of the other fringe causes manage to get big money suport tv and print adverts etc.
What we need is to tap into the people who have the resources but i don't know who they are.

We need a new post "Underwriter required for protest campaign."

[Fatt Max]

True, it really is who you know in that regard. There must be people who know media bods...at the very least the name and office location of someome we can hassle the shite out of.

Its momentum, thats the key. Something visual that spreads the message, something that the COMMUNITY could wear I suppose, some kind of symbolism. The target with the bike was great, maybe we swap the bike for a map of NZ. Kiwis sit up when they see the country represented especially if there is a threat aimed at it.

I dunno, just spouting ideas, the guys and gals I have been involved with are brilliant, none of us want to give up, its just battle plans need to be looked at.

At the end of the day, I do not want to see bikers divided over this, our great community needs to stay strong, we will never 100% agree with every little thing that is said or written, but at the very least be a single unit.

Thats my take on it peeps......cant we just all get along....?

[cowpoos]

Two Words Mr Poos , this says it all

NEW ZEALAND

I change my mind...your right

[FROSTY]

No...your wrong....it should be political correctness and this fricken belief that everyones a winner.....its ingrained in a number of generations now...don't know how to fight to win or achieve a goal or ambition. Scared to aspire to be someone or something...because the PC brigade will try to drag you down to their lazy pitiful fucking making excuses for being lazy and thick as shit level...
Bloody hell Poos I agree with every single word

[Paul in NZ]

Personally Im still extremely pissed off at the heavy handed fashion in which this was done...

However - I'm not sure the protests were very effective. I mean seriously do you think Dr Nick really gives a shit about bikers other than we were a great smoke screen for cars and vans?

Sadly, many people would only be too happy to see open piped cruisers and over fast sports bikes off the road as their experience of them has been 100% negative. I'd like to see some ads or publicity relating to shit people do understand... I dunno, pictures of iconic motorcycle faces like Burt Munro, John Brittan, and others with a theme that under a national govt ACC scheme there would never have been a Burt Munro

[MSTRS]

... a great smoke screen for cars and vans?


Wasn't for any want on our part to 'educate' the masses. No big money for advertisements and denied affective, realistic coverage in the media...we really were up against it. As witness a letter in our paper last night...some poor SUV owner shocked at how much his rego is now. He reckons it's totally unfair and suggests 'everyone' should get in touch with their MP etc to complain.

[MSTRS]

Here's that letter and my response

Re John Montgomerie (letter 6.7) and his angst over the ACC levy on his diesel ute. Petrol carries a 9.9c/litre levy at the pump, but not so with diesel, and ACC want their pound of flesh. This goes some way towards explaining the extra hike.
JM registers shock - why, I don’t know. The actual amount is certainly extreme, but it’s not like there was no warning.
Motorcyclists were faced with a $500 increase, which we protested about and it was reduced to $175. We also tried to educate the public with the Who’s Next campaign. Mike Noon of the AA refused to accept a $100 increase for cars, and being the frontman for a powerful lobby group, got their increase reduced to $30. Proof that numbers talk.
Despite all the rhetoric, ACC is not broke and never was. Not even close. Yet it was on this premise that levies have been raised in all areas of collection. This, and the separating of vehicles into various sub-groups with varying levies. Smaller sub-classes reduce the voice of the affected.
Motorcyclists warned the country of this while it was still just a proposal, but very few were listening.
Be warned, this will all happen again next year. The greed of this government and it’s cashcow knows no bounds.
Are you listening now?

[pc220]

Some of us don't have that option (public parking, etc), and those the do take that way out mean revenue goes down, but expenses stay the same, I'm guessing they'll put up the rego's for those still paying to compensate in a few years. And put up the fine for no reg even sooner.

cop out excuses, you do have that option.

[Toaster]

I lost the best part of a years income fighting ACC, and like everyone keeps facing price increases in so many areas.... food, petrol, everything... and now interest rates creep up + emission taxes to boot. Competitive market my arsebiscuit.

Yes more action needs to be taken and votes cast accordingly. Otherwise we are nothing but a cash squeezed doormat.

Oh and nice pay rise for the MP's again. Where's mine?

[Mom]

There may or may not be a meeting planned for this coming weekend to expand plans for further protest action.

[KelvinAng]

i knew bout the bikes bit, but did not know vans were going up 46% thats fucking tempting to put it on hold for the amount i use it

I drive a van to complement my bike, but fuck me, I knew nothing about this 46% increase in van rego charges. What's the rationale for that increase then? Surely a van isn't a "death-trap" with the regular vanner earning $80k/yr and breaking his/her back in a typical vanning accident requiring huge payouts from ACC?

[Pixie]

I drive a van to complement my bike, but fuck me, I knew nothing about this 46% increase in van rego charges. What's the rationale for that increase then? Surely a van isn't a "death-trap" with the regular vanner earning $80k/yr and breaking his/her back in a typical vanning accident requiring huge payouts from ACC?
THE DIESEL VAN IS A DEATH TRAP!!!!!
The same way an 1800cc cruiser is more dangerous than a 600cc sport bike

[Pixie]

Personally Im still extremely pissed off at the heavy handed fashion in which this was done...

However - I'm not sure the protests were very effective. I mean seriously do you think Dr Nick really gives a shit about bikers other than we were a great smoke screen for cars and vans?

Sadly, many people would only be too happy to see open piped cruisers and over fast sports bikes off the road as their experience of them has been 100% negative. I'd like to see some ads or publicity relating to shit people do understand... I dunno, pictures of iconic motorcycle faces like Burt Munro, John Brittan, and others with a theme that under a national govt ACC scheme there would never have been a Burt Munro
Burt Munro would have told the Govt. to fuck itself.

He probably never registered any bike he owned

[fossil]

Burt Munro would have told the Govt. to fuck itself.

He probably never registered any bike he owned

Theres one of his bikes at Hayes in Invercargill,complete with rego plate.

[Ocean1]

Theres one of his bikes at Hayes in Invercargill,complete with rego plate.

And what do you reckon that cost him?

[fossil]

And what do you reckon that cost him?

He probably made it in his shed

[Danc85]

F*&% the NZ govt, enough said

[MSTRS]

The issue is not dead - yet.
Some of the public here are beginning to question the situation

[mashman]

sad times. concerned citizens?

[kave]

The ACC rates motorcycle protest is dead. I was/am angry at the rises and keen to let the government know. I took days off work to go to Wellington, and enjoyed participating in an extremely well attended protest ride. When I arrived back I was still keen. Unfortunately at that point there was no organisation, increasing factionalism and developing personality cults. There were many protests organised that only 20 or so people heard about, and only 5 attended. The decision was made to broaden the group of people involved from just motorcyclists, and that was an unfortunate failure. The whole movement rapidly became a farce. Perhaps it can be bought back to life, but only if the mistakes of the past are learnt from.


1. We need leadership and an organisation. A one off ride can be organised in a relatively haphazard manner, and go off without a hitch. Unfortunately once the ride is over there is no ability to control the follow-up. BRONZ unfortunately is not this organisation, it runs democratically and is too slow to respond (BRONZ does need to be involved, they just don't have the ability to lead). There should be a leadership group set up solely to deal with the ACC protest movement, one that is small enough to respond quickly.

2. Media is everything. We need to provide and provoke situations that will sell newspapers and advertising space, and we need people that are media savvy and can talk in soundbites. If you cant get your idea across in 5 seconds, then the idea needs to be refined. Your 15 minute soliloquy on the perils of the government messing with ACC will not make the news, half the people protesting probably wont even be interested enough to listen. Public don't give a shit about stats, emotional appeals are quicker and more effective, people hate to think.

3. You need the people behind you. KB is a good place to start recruiting, but you need others. Use the success of the Wellington protest ride as inspiration. Plan something, have it well thought out and start advertising months in advance. Flyer drops, posters, radio time, whatever works. Make protests on the weekend, and preferably aim to start something in fine weather. Make it accessible, its all well and good claiming that if people care enough they will get the time off work, but all we really want is numbers. We dont just want the hardcore elite, we want Joe Average to turn up because he doesnt like paying too much, it's a nice day for a ride and a protest sounds like fun. Once we get them along, then we can try to inspire them, but we need them there first.

[DEVVIL]

sad times. concerned citizens?

Yes we are just waiting for the word....

[mashman]

The ACC rates motorcycle protest is dead. I was/am angry at the rises and keen to let the government know. I took days off work to go to Wellington, and enjoyed participating in an extremely well attended protest ride. When I arrived back I was still keen. Unfortunately at that point there was no organisation, increasing factionalism and developing personality cults. There were many protests organised that only 20 or so people heard about, and only 5 attended. The decision was made to broaden the group of people involved from just motorcyclists, and that was an unfortunate failure. The whole movement rapidly became a farce. Perhaps it can be bought back to life, but only if the mistakes of the past are learnt from.


1. We need leadership and an organisation. A one off ride can be organised in a relatively haphazard manner, and go off without a hitch. Unfortunately once the ride is over there is no ability to control the follow-up. BRONZ unfortunately is not this organisation, it runs democratically and is too slow to respond (BRONZ does need to be involved, they just don't have the ability to lead). There should be a leadership group set up solely to deal with the ACC protest movement, one that is small enough to respond quickly.

2. Media is everything. We need to provide and provoke situations that will sell newspapers and advertising space, and we need people that are media savvy and can talk in soundbites. If you cant get your idea across in 5 seconds, then the idea needs to be refined. Your 15 minute soliloquy on the perils of the government messing with ACC will not make the news, half the people protesting probably wont even be interested enough to listen. Public don't give a shit about stats, emotional appeals are quicker and more effective, people hate to think.

3. You need the people behind you. KB is a good place to start recruiting, but you need others. Use the success of the Wellington protest ride as inspiration. Plan something, have it well thought out and start advertising months in advance. Flyer drops, posters, radio time, whatever works. Make protests on the weekend, and preferably aim to start something in fine weather. Make it accessible, its all well and good claiming that if people care enough they will get the time off work, but all we really want is numbers. We dont just want the hardcore elite, we want Joe Average to turn up because he doesnt like paying too much, it's a nice day for a ride and a protest sounds like fun. Once we get them along, then we can try to inspire them, but we need them there first.

And when they send us away again? That needs to be one hell of a plan.

[NONONO]

CUYOBY..................apparently.

[Hawk]

dead no, regrouping yes
remember summer just round the corner and like bears motorcyclists come out of hibernation then just in time for a election, I hope to recundle the Christchurch boys and girls around then.

[Brian d marge]

Im putting money on the rates stay the same until a new government

The big bike prices will drop and classic Jap bike soar

Stephen

[buellbabe]

Interesting...I was under the impression that there will be another big Welly protest...I'll be there AGAIN.

I have been there for both of the protests at Parliament, been to local ones as well and am currently with-holding rego fees on a bike ... won't say too much about that cos I wouldn't want to draw unwanted attention...

I know quite a few riders that are saying "F U! I would rather risk a $200 fine from the MOT than hand over $$s to ACC".

[Waxxa]

the battle to reduce the levies on the rego's has been lost, so forget about it people. The levies have come in to effect already.

We acheived a reduction from the bikeoi last year and if we wanted more of a reduction or at least a freeze on levies we needed to back up the bikeoi protest straight after and that has passed.

So what is the battle for now? keeping the levies at the new rate without a further increase next year? or to keep ACC as a no-fault principle?

[Maha]

the battle to reduce the levies on the rego's has been lost, so forget about it people. The levies have come in to effect already.

We acheived a reduction from the bikeoi last year and if we wanted more of a reduction or at least a freeze on levies we needed to back up the bikeoi protest straight after and that has passed.

So what is the battle for now? keeping the levies at the new rate without a further increase next year? or to keep ACC as a no-fault principle?

What this Country needs Tony is, a dedicated, elected body to protect and promote Motorcycling in New Zealand.

[NONONO]

What this Country needs Tony is, a dedicated, elected body to protect and promote Motorcycling in New Zealand.

Hmmmm, like that's ever gonna happen eh????

[Brian d marge]

already some people are selling the bikes

what will it take to before the average Kiwi does something

even the French , get of their arses , and they give up at a drop of the hat

Stephen

[MSTRS]

The issue is still quietly bubbling away in the background.
The cartoonist in our local paper occasionally gives it a kick too...

[NONONO]

Think the issue is firmly back on the agenda...
www.mag-nz.org

[Fatt Max]

Think the issue is firmly back on the agenda...
www.mag-nz.org

...and some.....

[Mom]

already some people are selling the bikes

what will it take to before the average Kiwi does something

even the French , get of their arses , and they give up at a drop of the hat

Stephen

I really hope not too long, there are still some of us around that wont stop.

[Brian d marge]

I really hope not too long, there are still some of us around that wont stop.
Sorry if I always sound like a wowser , but I have been banging my head againt that , "still mustn't grumble " attitude , 99 % of kiwis have ( yes 99! most say they do , but actually don't )

Nz was such a nice place until the reforms , I worked my arse off ( and paid for ) protests , but sadly 400 Lincon students on a Wednesday afternoon , doesn't shift the points to allow the political train to alter its course
coupled with the fact that , the bond market is putting pressure on NZ ( who is doing rather well) to reduce the loans

our politicians ( I don't think ) have much room to maneuver , But on saying that ,

ACC is the jewel in the crown of NZ , and We as a people are F"#$ing that up

I will not ( am not ) going to be a part of that destruction

Stephen

[NONONO]

Sorry if I always sound like a wowser , but I have been banging my head againt that , "still mustn't grumble " attitude , 99 % of kiwis have ( yes 99! most say they do , but actually don't )

Nz was such a nice place until the reforms , I worked my arse off ( and paid for ) protests , but sadly 400 Lincon students on a Wednesday afternoon , doesn't shift the points to allow the political train to alter its course
coupled with the fact that , the bond market is putting pressure on NZ ( who is doing rather well) to reduce the loans

our politicians ( I don't think ) have much room to maneuver , But on saying that ,

ACC is the jewel in the crown of NZ , and We as a people are F"#$ing that up

I will not ( am not ) going to be a part of that destruction

Stephen

You sure you won't come with us?
You sound just like Mom...
Have a think...
Night.

[SMOKEU]

I've given up on the thought of protesting. I'm just putting the rego on hold and I'm hoping I won't get snapped.

[Brian d marge]

You sure you won't come with us?
You sound just like Mom...
Have a think...
Night.

Most likely will pay me fee and Join , but Im not in NZ , I voted with my feet , Will come back to retire , with enough to see me right

Stephen

[Hawk]

Acc protest movement dead no, matured yes. The movement is no longer a single issue movement, it has I feel has matured to take on the many issues that face motorcycling. The coming together of groups such as APEG Christchurch and MAG-NZ formally Auckland Action Group can only mean good things for motorcyling, MAG-NZ has already received recognition from other motorcycle representative groups and govt roading committees, this can only be good for motorcyclist.

We have as members some particularly good lobbyist all of which are well respected within govt circles and the motorcycle industry.

Insider knowledge tells me watch this space and all we ask from the motorcycling public is your support.

[Waxxa]

I know quite a few riders that are saying "F U! I would rather risk a $200 fine from the MOT than hand over $$s to ACC".

Unfortunately Buellbabe not registering your bike is a futile exercise. IF the fine of $200 for no rego remains (and I would be very suprised that this fine wont increase in line of the rego increase) you will be stung for $200 which wont go towards your rego. On top of that, if you dont keep your rego current, then you wont be able to get a WOF issued and another $200 fine.

So straight away you are up for $400, none of which will go towards your warrant or rego and this can be issued by a parking warden, you dont have to be riding and doing anything wrong.

So for the sake of another $150 or so dollars plus $35 for a warrant you are defeating yourself!

The increase is 'Bullshit' but we are caught by the short and curlies here. There is nothing us bikers can do but we should keep or bikes road legal all the same (and for insurance purposes too).

[gazmascelle]

as far as i know you dont need rego to get a wof, as long as your bike isnt deregistered. aside from that i agree though. Insurance is probably the only reason i bother paying my rego anymore (which im happy to have, especially after someone reversing into my bike last weekend). Although im not sure what my policy says about rego,.

[MSTRS]

On top of that, if you dont keep your rego current, then you wont be able to get a WOF issued and another $200 fine.

Other way round. You MUST have a WOF to be able to rego.



(and for insurance purposes too).
Usually, insurance is not dependent on rego status.
Generally, only stuff that had a bearing on the accident is considered for declining cover (like not being in WOFable condition - with or without a current WOF sticker).
Individual insurers may vary.

[Brian d marge]

Unfortunately Buellbabe not registering your bike is a futile exercise. IF the fine of $200 for no rego remains (and I would be very suprised that this fine wont increase in line of the rego increase) you will be stung for $200 which wont go towards your rego. On top of that, if you dont keep your rego current, then you wont be able to get a WOF issued and another $200 fine.

So straight away you are up for $400, none of which will go towards your warrant or rego and this can be issued by a parking warden, you dont have to be riding and doing anything wrong.

So for the sake of another $150 or so dollars plus $35 for a warrant you are defeating yourself!

The increase is 'Bullshit' but we are caught by the short and curlies here. There is nothing us bikers can do but we should keep or bikes road legal all the same (and for insurance purposes too).
Can you verify that , as there seems to be a bit of confusion
Stephen ( under the impression that the rego is independent of Wof )

[MSTRS]

Can you verify that , as there seems to be a bit of confusion
Stephen ( under the impression that the rego is independent of Wof )

What is so confusing?

A vehicle must be Vinned or Wof'd (and pass) before it can be registered or renewed.

[bogan]

Can you verify that , as there seems to be a bit of confusion
Stephen ( under the impression that the rego is independent of Wof )

I did a few years ago when I went to get my rego on the way to getting a wof. Answer was no rego before wof.

WOF then (if you want) REGO.

[Waxxa]

I did a few years ago when I went to get my rego on the way to getting a wof. Answer was no rego before wof.

WOF then (if you want) REGO.

Ah, is that what it is! I knew there was some link-up between the two.

regardless, it is futile not to register your bike.

Question: If you dont register your bike for say 3 months (not counting de-registering the bike) and then go and get it registered, do you have to pay up the 3 months that has elapsed before you can register the bike for the coming months ahead?

[Bald Eagle]

Ah, is that what it is! I knew there was some link-up between the two.

regardless, it is futile not to register your bike.

Question: If you dont register your bike for say 3 months (not counting de-registering the bike) and then go and get it registered, do you have to pay up the 3 months that has elapsed before you can register the bike for the coming months ahead?

If you don't put it on hold yes you do - see the nzta web re "vehicles requiring to be continuously licensed"

[Maha]

Ah, is that what it is! I knew there was some link-up between the two.

regardless, it is futile not to register your bike.

Question: If you dont register your bike for say 3 months (not counting de-registering the bike) and then go and get it registered, do you have to pay up the 3 months that has elapsed before you can register the bike for the coming months ahead?

No you dont, if its on hold, for say three months, you get a new rego form in the mail three weks before the 'on hold' expires.

[buellbabe]

Perhaps I should have been clearer, when I mentioned not registering I actually meant putting it ON HOLD and then continuing to ride and risking a fine.

Answer to question is NO you do not have to pay for the previous 3 months that the rego has been on hold UNLESS you re-register WITHIN the on-hold period. So it is NOT FUTILE to juggle your regos and put on hold to suit yourself. This is obviously more useful if you own more than one bike/vehicle.

If you actually do a bit of pre-planning (which I have done!) then you can work out when you want which bike on/off the road and its easy to get the rego period to suit cos all ya have to do is go into a land transport agent and fill out the form that gives you the option of CHANGING the rego expiration date. You can change it for to add as little as an extra day orany time up to an extra 15 mths...

And to refute another comment made.

Having no rego does NOT null and void my insurance.

[MSTRS]

There appears to be some confusion over rego on hold or not...

Your rego is due on (say) 1.10.10. You do nothing, and let the date come and go. 4 months later, on 1.2.11, you think "Shit! I must get the bike rego'd" It will cost you for every day of that 4 months before you get a new rego that takes you forward.

If you had put your rego on hold before 1.10.10, it is simply on hold and there is a 3 month minimum period that this can last. If you want to 'go live' within that period, you will have to pay rego for the lapsed time as well. As the 'on hold' period approaches 12 months I think you get a new rego account sent out. You then pay, or renew the hold.

If your rego is overdue, and not on hold, and then you sell the vehicle, YOU are liable for the arrears, not the new owner.

[buellbabe]

Yea no confusion here mate...I fully understand the whole "on hold" thing and I am using it to my advantage.
Also as I mentioned, I am extending the expiring date when it suits. Like I said its a bit of juggling but I am damned if ACC are gonna get anymore $$s from me than the bare minimum I have no choice in parting with.

[buellbabe]

Also to clarify how I am making the extension of the registration work for me.
Example: My X1 rego runs out a week before the Buell rally in November, I am planning on putting it on hold over Summer for some routine maintenance and ride the CR instead...
BUUUUUT I wanna take the X1 to the Rally so before the rego actually expires I will be going into my local VTNZ and filling out the form (MR21??? I think) and will extend the rego to cover the week leading up to the rally and a few days afterward.

Cheaper than going online and re-registering for the minimum 3 month period when I only need it to be legal long enuf to get to the Rally and back...

Also I don't have the Rego reminder form in front of me at the mo but am I right or wrong in thinking that if you do it in person rather than online, that the printed form lets you re-new your rego for a minimum of 1 month??? Even if that is the case I am still saving myself dollars.

[buellbabe]

Me again, rather than edit my last post I will just add another...dunno why I thought there was a 1 month period...blonde moment... its definately minimum of 3 mth renewal.
So my point is that I am making the system work for me!

[SMOKEU]

Having no rego does NOT null and void my insurance.

It does with my insurance company (NAC), so I'm going to go shopping around for another policy.

[MSTRS]

After hearing that ACC plans to look at risk-rating of cars, I have written another Letter to Ed.

About this time last year motorcyclists learned of massive ACC increases planned for their bike registrations. The “Who’s Next?” campaign was quickly initiated, but few were listening, nor were ACC or Govt answering that one.
Despite a scaling-back of the increase, motorcyclists were still hit with a big rise, a rise that was dependent on the engine size of their bikes. More on that later. Yet still they asked “Who’s Next?”. Nobody was listening. Until the owners of diesel-powered vehicles got their rego demands, that is. That got the attention of quite a few of you, along with some letters to this paper, grumbling about the rise. Think it’s all over now? Think again. RadioNZ reports last Friday 24/7, and I quote, “The Accident Compensation Corporation says legislative changes made earlier this year could allow it to charge motor vehicle levies according to risk and is looking at how this might be put in place.”
This means that owners of older cars without all the safety features of airbags, side intrusion beams, ABS, traction control, etc could be in line for massive increases on their regos. Or owners of more powerful cars, or convertibles, or sub-compacts.
You see, ACC maintain that bigger-engined motorcycles carry a greater risk and they are moving to apply that thinking to every vehicle. The truth about bigger-engined motorcycles is that their owners generally earn more than those of smaller bikes, so the Earnings Compensation in the event of injury is higher. Ironically, those car owners who earn more usually own ‘better’ cars, so they may get a discount on their rego. Which penalises those who can’t afford a new car.
“Who’s Next?” indeed.

[MSTRS]

Well that letter got the attention of no less than a senior manager at ACC, who came out swinging. Trouble is he fell over cos he had both feet in his mouth...

[MSTRS]

I believe he got his arse handed to him...

Re letter (Peter Wood, ACC)
We should all be disturbed by his response to my letter of last week, particularly by it's condescending tone and assumptions over older persons and boy racers. Nor could he get my name right. He also seems to have trouble understanding my intent.
As a motorcyclist, of course I am unhappy about those levies. That fight continues, but right now other sections of the motoring public face their own challenges over levies, and my letter was to draw attention to that issue.

In previous letters, I have warned of the impending loss of ACC as we know it, in terms of it becoming just another insurance company. Readers will have noticed PW’s title. Yet the new model for ACC is not insurance either. Insurance implies individual tailoring of a policy and choice of cover-type. Being risk-based on entire demographics, but ignoring fault and individuals, simply moves the inequities of the scheme in a new direction.

His so-called facts have all been debunked before, but his claims that older drivers can afford ‘better’ cars, and boy racers can’t, is another sad joke. What does age have to do with ability to afford? The term 'boy racer' is to do with behaviour, not the vehicle. And anyone who operates a vehicle is not necessarily the person who pays the registration.
As for fair? Risk mitigation through safety features is a poor substitute for driver behaviour. Vehicles packed with modern safety features are just as likely to cause injury to those not in that vehicle, such as the biker that the inattentive driver didn’t take care to notice. Pigeon-holing people according to their vehicle is totally inequitable. How does PW propose to know what anyone’s driving is like based on the vehicle to which a number plate is attached? What about bikers who protect themselves with good, expensive gear? Will cyclists soon be paying to use the road? I predict that soon there will be talk of levies being based on the number of seats in your vehicle – the more you can transport, the more you can injure.

Yet congratulations must go to recognising that reducing crashes is the way to go. Better drivers/riders through appropriate training. That is something we should all get behind. No matter what vehicle type we operate. Strangely enough, it was motorcyclists that got ACC onto this strategy.

[Scuba_Steve]

My initial question is WHY? should the "old" person pay less than a "boy racer" & that be fair? last I checked it WASN'T a "boy racer" that drove 2km da wrong way up Wellington highway, it WASN'T a "boy racer" who drove the wrong way up Auckland motorway until a 6 vehicle crash with fatalities etc. etc.

[MSTRS]

Indeed. Just yesterday, here in Napier, a 78yo woman driver bowled and killed an 83yo pedestrian.
Dangerous things, these old people. Big risk...better charge them more, eh?

[Scuba_Steve]

Indeed. Just yesterday, here in Napier, a 78yo woman driver bowled and killed an 83yo pedestrian.
Dangerous things, these old people. Big risk...better charge them more, eh?

Damm Giggity, also if I remember correctly old people cost more to repair too. Time for ACC to start their 'Geriatric Tax' lol

[MSTRS]

Not if you kill 'em...

In March this year, a 93yo pedestrian was bowled and killed right outside HB Hospital. The driver was texting at the time. He was young, tho, so must have been a boy racer, eh?

[davereid]

...Time for ACC to start their 'Geriatric Tax' lol

Actually they sort of do.

As I commented in another thread, its actually Nana who cops it the most from ACC levies.

Nanas little run-about costs her a full two weeks of her years income to register. She pays that for a small number of km, mostly at low speeds, around town.

As Nana is on the old age pension, should she have a crash, she is not eligible for income related compensation.

Compare that to her next door neighbour. The self employed guy. His Holden V6 costs him the same to register, (or less if Nanas car is a diesel.)

He gets the GST back, and a 38% tax-back due to his 38% marginal tax rate, so in fact he paid half price. His rego represents less than a day of his income, yet should he bend the car, he is eligible for millions of dollars in earnings related compensation.

If Peter Wood wants a fair system, he could start somewhere other than bashing bikers !

[MSTRS]

If Peter Wood wants a fair system, he could start somewhere other than bashing bikers !

And old people.
In real terms, I guess no system of levying can be fair, but surely the fairest must be all on fuel?
Great post!

[Scuba_Steve]

And old people.
In real terms, I guess no system of levying can be fair, but surely the fairest must be all on fuel?
Great post!

Nope I want all vehicles to have RUC's and all vehicle tax contained within the RUC's this way you pay for what you use and should you have multiple vehicles (like most of us) your ONLY paying for the one being used at the time. This would also free us from paying road tax on generators, weed eaters, lawn mowers, home-made napalm:lol: etc. etc. etc.

[MSTRS]

How many kms are you forced to buy as a minimum?
I guess boaties would become the big anomaly with levy on fuel...but they pay 9.9c/l now.

[MAG-NZ Inc]

Well that letter got the attention of no less than a senior manager at ACC, who came out swinging. Trouble is he fell over cos he had both feet in his mouth...

I am looking forward to his response to my letter. Is it possible for you to post it here too?

We may even encourage a few more people to write a little letter, from small things larger ones grow and all that.

[MSTRS]

Here is the printed format of both responses

[Scuba_Steve]

How many kms are you forced to buy as a minimum?
I guess boaties would become the big anomaly with levy on fuel...but they pay 9.9c/l now.

1000km seems fair it doesn't time expire and that incl everything, ACC, RUC's, vehicle licensing etc. Petrol would just be petrol & GST.

[MSTRS]

How many diesels are out there running around with no credit on their RUC? People being what they are, will just abuse the small amount of trust put in them to purchase RUC.
Better to have it on fuel. Drive-offs are easier to catch up with.

[Scuba_Steve]

How many diesels are out there running around with no credit on their RUC? People being what they are, will just abuse the small amount of trust put in them to purchase RUC.
Better to have it on fuel. Drive-offs are easier to catch up with.

but same thing happens now how many vehicles have no reg? It'll be an easy enough fix yes there will be people who try to "skip" on it but if found it'll be instant impoundment/clamping of the vehicle until RUC's are paid in full incl the 1000km's additional (don't care if your in the middle of the desert road, you'll be walking)

[MSTRS]

True. But you can't move without fuel in the first place, and to me it just seems more efficient to do it this way. Besides, aren't we all tired of the big stick method of enforcement?

[rabidnz]

also, no rego/ruc/etc should mean the pump wont even turn on to give you petrol, rfid \could solve that, and even apply no-claims safe driving discounts at the point of sale

[MSTRS]

Got a RUC label on your 20lt fuel can?

[Scuba_Steve]

True. But you can't move without fuel in the first place, and to me it just seems more efficient to do it this way. Besides, aren't we all tired of the big stick method of enforcement?

true it would have to be a balance, but also currently diesel isn't charged on pump & if electric, hydro etc ever take off there's more trouble doing it at pump there then why should I pay RUC's on petrol for my CR250, motor mower, weed eater, land rover etc all which I cannot use on road? & why should anyone pay more RUC, ACC or licensing for using a less economical vehicle? They use the same amount of road & they'll pay more in petrol for being less economical so again unfair to charge them extra because they prefer a 3.0l to a 1.3l or a Godzilla to a Ka etc

[MSTRS]

Argh! You are right! Just goes to illustrate that no system is fair, foolproof.

[davereid]

True. But you can't move without fuel in the first place, and to me it just seems more efficient to do it this way. Besides, aren't we all tired of the big stick method of enforcement?

Most Kiwis just seem to love the big stick, complicated enforcement and big penalties.

Simple, self enforcing, and reliable ideas like fuel tax seem to be beneath consideration !

Even toll roads could be funded by fuel taxes, by the simple mechanism of allowing private operators access to fuel taxes on a vehicle/km basis.

So for example, you build transmission gully. Its 25km and carries 10,000 vehicles a day. You are eligible for 250,000 vehicle/km worth of fuel tax for that day.

Of course, this would never work, as you don't need ANPR, Electronicc Tags, vehicle tracking or GPS, and everyone would have to pay.

[NighthawkNZ]

So for example, you build transmission gully. Its 25km and carries 10,000 vehicles a day. You are eligible for 250,000 vehicle/km worth of fuel tax for that day..

then you get why should I pay for a road that I will never ever use...?

[davereid]

then you get why should I pay for a road that I will never ever use...?

Why wouldn't you use it ? If you are ever unfortunate enough to be in Wellington it is the fastest way out !

[swbarnett]

then you get why should I pay for a road that I will never ever use...?
Two words - "Public Good".

The increased productivity that a road like this engenders is of benifit to the whole country - wether we use it or not.

[davereid]

Two words - "Public Good".

There is no getting around the fact that roads have to be paid for somehow. Right now, its from rates, fuel taxes and in a small number of places tolls.

Tolls are generally touted, as Nighthawk pointed out, as a way of making the person who uses the road pay for it. It also allows public-private partnerships, as private enterprise can invest in the road and make few quid.

An appealing idea for cash strapped councils and government !.

And at first glance that seems very fair.

But that person has already paid his rates and his fuel taxes, so he is being "double dipped".

Plus, tolls are traditionally very expensive and hard to collect.

Electronic tolling seems a good way around that.

But heres the rub.

As toll roads become the norm, rather than the exception, you will soon reach the situation where every journey involves tolls. A cost per km that you have to factor into your trip.

This will mean that while strictly speaking, you are only paying for the road you are on, when the entire country is taken into consideration, every user is paying a per/km fee.

You have now gone full circle. Paying a fuel tax, was a neat way of reaching exactly the same end result.

Except the cost of doing it was virtually nil.

[MSTRS]

Politicians, bureaucrats and accountants. Having good ideas since never.

[Ocean1]

Paying a fuel tax, was a neat way of reaching exactly the same end result.

Far more betterer, fuel cost is damn close to exactly representitive of the true cost of maintenance on the road for any given vehicle.

[swbarnett]

the person who uses the road
This is where it gets interesting. The group of people that can be considered users of the road is not limited to those that actually drive on it.

The little old lady who sits in her house watching tele and never leaves still "uses" the road. For example, when she orders groceries over the internet the supermarket driver is using the road on her behalf to deliver them. She is a benifiting from the existance of the road.

[davereid]

The little old lady who sits in her house watching tele and never leaves still "uses" the road. For example, when she orders groceries over the internet the supermarket driver is using the road on her behalf to deliver them. She is a benifiting from the existance of the road.

And paying for it, as the prices of everything in the shop reflect the cost of its transport to the shop, and thence to her.

While her contribution is indeed modest, so is her usage and wear and tear on the road !

But overall, she pays the same rates for her $250,000 flat as the next door neighbour do for their $250,000 house. But they have 8 people in that house, using the same ratepayer funded road to the supermarket.

They also use the park 8 times as much, flush their toilets 8 as times as much...

Maybe we should replace rates with a poll tax - the same amount for each individual ?

[MSTRS]

Maybe we should replace rates with a poll tax - the same amount for each individual ?

Ooooh, ACC under Woodhouse.
Nah, it'd never work....

[swbarnett]

And paying for it, as the prices of everything in the shop reflect the cost of its transport to the shop, and thence to her.
Indeed she is. My point is more that it's fairest to all to fund public goods like this on a nation (or council) wide basis rather than trying to work out what each individual (or group) should contribute because we all benifit.

ACC is such a public good. I would rather it was funded from income tax than any form of tax aimed at specific groups.

[MSTRS]

Indeed she is. My point is more that it's fairest to all to fund public goods like this on a nation (or council) wide basis rather than trying to work out what each individual (or group) should contribute because we all benifit.

ACC is such a public good. I would rather it was funded from income tax than any form of tax aimed at specific groups.

You do understand that this was Woodhouse and the original ACC?

[swbarnett]

You do understand that this was Woodhouse and the original ACC?
Indeed I do. The ideal outcome of course would be to go back to that.

[MSTRS]

Well done, Dave

[MSTRS]

I can only imagine the response...
Re your correspondent, D R Reid, and his typical, old people's whinging.
Get over yourself, you leach on society. The taxpayer already supports your no doubt extravagant lifestyle.
What makes him think that ACC is going to allow him, and his ilk, to bludge off us, as well?
If he can't afford the levies on his poxy old car, then he should get a bicycle.
That won't cost him a cent in levies (yet - we're working on that too), he'll get fit and live longer (to continue being a drain on the taxpayer).
ACC might pay towards his medical when a car bowls him, although we'll more than likely deny his claim.
Because chances are, his 'injuries' will be age-related wear and tear, and everyone knows we don't cover that.
Best regards
Peter Wood
Acting (up) Manager
ACC Insurance Corp

[Mom]

I can only imagine the response...

Please tell me you made this up? Or perhaps assure me you didn't :shit:

[Brian d marge]

A bit busy in Nelson today wasnt it ..

Stephen

[MSTRS]

Please tell me you made this up? Or perhaps assure me you didn't :shit:

Of course I did. Any real response would not be quite so 'in your face'...although it would no doubt mean the same, if one was to read between the lines.

[Maha]

I' going to offend some people..constructively..

I think this ACC protest movement thingy with the bikers is dead.

Its not achieved much really...other than to teach politicians that Bikers are a push over.

there is an art to this protesting stuff...the media soon get bored...the public don't like to be inconvenienced...hmm

Probably a fair argument there Ryan to be honest.
I too would like to know how bikers view the whole acc debarcle that once was?
Is it a case of, meh, move on, nothing to see here...?
...or possibly, wow that ride to Wellington was great but um......:corn:

[Bikemad]

yep............the good ol apathetic kiwi eh.........
or is it just me

[Maha]

yep............the good ol apathetic kiwi eh.........
or is it just me

I did hear that term being used about bikers and the acc issue, apathy alive and well etc...

[Voltaire]

I don't think its apathy so much as the realisation that to do battle with the Pollys you need to play by their rules....committees....meetings.....more meetings....paperwork..... and that is how they win.
I see it at work...those who like the whole corporate thing and those who do it out of sufferance.
It takes a certain type to do that and I'm not into it, I'll just pay the ACC moan, winge and bleat on the interweb and go riding.
I do see the ACC charges changing the face of motorcycling....Fecked if I'd pay $600 a year to ride a 125 or 250....cheap transport my arse.

[caseye]

I don't think its apathy so much as the realisation that to do battle with the Pollys you need to play by their rules....committees....meetings.....more meetings....paperwork..... and that is how they win.
I see it at work...those who like the whole corporate thing and those who do it out of sufferance.
It takes a certain type to do that and I'm not into it, I'll just pay the ACC moan, winge and bleat on the interweb and go riding.
I do see the ACC charges changing the face of motorcycling....Fecked if I'd pay $600 a year to ride a 125 or 250....cheap transport my arse.


Say it like you mean it there Voltaire.Fuck Em! Those Pollies that is!
I rode to Welly with Voltaire alongside another mate of ours, we all did it because we'd had enough of Gov't intervention and thought that if enough of us went they might listen.
Well they listened, we didn't get the full whack this time!
The general public though they had access to the same information as the Pollies and the Bikers, did not take sides and preferred to let us wither on the vine, despite we bikers telling them quite catagorically that they would be next.
Now if things are to go anywhere at all, we motorcyclists need the actual /physical support of each and every biker out there to show the Pollies that we are still here and we still want a fair go and to be treated the same as all other road users.
This ideal is what sparked first the Auckland Action Group and subsequently MAG-NZ.
I've been asked why we simply did not take over an existing organisation and go from there,and told, that in some peoples eyes splitting the riders up yet again was counter productive.
I don't think so, but I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong.
Voltaire unfortunately is representative of many bikers out there right now.
They will suffer and continue to pay and ride their bikes.
But I know for a fact that if they could poke the Pollies in the eye in some way that didn't make them public enemy number one , they would!
So if I may, I'll draw your attention to the Riders Are Voters campaign.

http://www.nzrav.org/

Becoming a RAV supporter costs nothing but time and input.
Check it out guys and girls, go sign in and see whats being said.
It'll cost you nothing.
It won't get you blacklisted from your club or organisation.
It might allow you to see another way of getting to the Pollies.
It will allow you to have a say.
It will encourage you to tell other riders about it.
Can't hurt and this way you don't have to just give in, pay up and ride regardless.


PS. RAV is not unique in it's attempt to unify bikers.
Perhaps what is unique is that it can simply be a place that all bikers regardless of which OTHER Organisation they belong to can come along to and say something that might start a landslide victory for a biker freindly political party or even better!@#$??? worse, a bikers Political party
Think about that.

[Voltaire]

Say it like you mean it there Voltaire.Fuck Em! Those Pollies that is!

I find it hard to get angry or even interested over Politics.
When you vote you are basically signing a blank cheque for these guys to Mother you along for three years

I was walking down the street last Saturday and Phil Geoff was outside the shop in his Geoff mobile ( he is the local MP).....I bought the Herald and walked on by......

That's apathy in action.

[superman]

I find it hard to get angry or even interested over Politics.
When you vote you are basically signing a blank cheque for these guys to Mother you along for three years

I was walking down the street last Saturday and Phil Geoff was outside the shop in his Geoff mobile ( he is the local MP).....I bought the Herald and walked on by......

That's apathy in action.

Yes NZ politics are a bit ridiculous. All we do is choose someone who has the closest views to ours (during the election campaign) and then they get 3 years doing what they want with everyones money for all manner of subjects.

At least over in countries like Switzerland any big decision is done via referendum (and binding unlike ours). Therefore the public actually chooses how to progress through a controversial law etc. And if you get I think 50,000 signatures you can force a referendum on whatever you want. :yes:

Wish we got that :angry:

[Voltaire]

At least over in countries like Switzerland any big decision is done via referendum (and binding unlike ours). Therefore the public actually chooses how to progress through a controversial law etc. And if you get I think 50,000 signatures you can force a referendum on whatever you want.

they could run it like 'Political Idle' or 'The Beehives Got Talent'.....vote them in at election time, get the issues televised and the public could text in to pass bills.

So if your out there Simon Cowan.....you got the idea here....( again).

Imagine the joy:yes: of voting Roger Douglas:angry: off..... Living ( if you can say he has a heart) proof that MMP is flawed...

[swbarnett]

At least over in countries like Switzerland any big decision is done via referendum (and binding unlike ours).
The other point about Switzerland is that government is based on concensus politics. All political parties work together to find the best solution, rather than fighting to get your own way.

[KelvinAng]

they could run it like 'Political Idle' or 'The Beehives Got Talent'.....

'Political Idle'... a reality competition to see who can idle the most? :blink:

+1

[idleidolidyll]

too many soft cocks who didn't want to upset the public.

going for rides to protest government tax increases on bikes is like fucking for prostitution

[Voltaire]

too many soft cocks who didn't want to upset the public.

going for rides to protest government tax increases on bikes is like fucking for prostitution

I can see it now " Harden up Bikers ....buy a Yamaha Virago":innocent:

[Maha]

too many soft cocks who didn't want to upset the public.

going for rides to protest government tax increases on bikes is like fucking for prostitution

Probably right Mike, try as we might have a number of times, the end result was, the support was just never really there. My stance on 'organised kaos' has change in recent months. I now have no problem with it at all. Going peacefully does nothing but appease the authorities. 40-50,000 people marched up Queens St earlier in the year on the very same day we did our last protest ride, we had 100 bikes, we had to wait till the greenies had done thier bit and tag on behind them. I have learned alot about protesting and getting results from watching footage of how it was done in years gone by.
I am now off to find short-circuit.

[GOONR]

I am now off to find short-circuit. :clap::clap::clap:

[riffer]

I am now off to find short-circuit.

Johnny 5 is alive?

[Katman]

Even I can't be arsed talking people out of rioting in the streets anymore.

If it works for us - well and good.

If it works against us - I'll still be here saying what I've always been saying.

(Oh, that and "I told you so"). :whistle:

[bogan]

(Oh, that and "I told you so"). :whistle:

surely you wouldn't :blink:

The trick to organised chaos, is its focus I reckon, aim it to piss off the right people and the public won't get offended, aim it to cause public disruption and it's pretty obvious they won't be happy.

It's the difference between, "those bikers really stuck it to the politicians yesterday" and "those fucking bikers held me up for no good reason yesterday, bunch of bastards"

[Mom]

(Oh, that and "I told you so"). :whistle:

For the record, and so there is no confusion about what MAG-NZ are about. We are sticking to what we have been all along. We will not deliberately set out to cause mayhem, or inconvience people. We will however organise and encourage people to attend events that due to their nature may cause some disruption for Joe Public. We acknowledge that sometimes our actions will cause inconvienience but we do not set out to deliberately cause it.

Hope that is clear to everyone.

[Katman]

After seeing on the news tonight the article on the motorcycle charity ride for the Pike River miners families it occurs to me that before any media coverage of motorcyclists causing huge public disruption reaches the public eye they need first to have been bombarded with coverage of every toy run, every SPCA run, every breast cancer run, every rescue helicopter run etc., so they are well aware of the good things that we get together for.

Any of the afore mentioned runs that slip by without media coverage has to be seen as a fail for us.

[James Deuce]

After seeing on the news tonight the article on the motorcycle charity ride for the Pike River miners families it occurs to me that before any media coverage of motorcyclists causing huge public disruption reaches the public eye they need first to have been bombarded with coverage of every toy run, every SPCA run, every breast cancer run, every rescue helicopter run etc., so they are well aware of the good things that we get together for.

Any of the afore mentioned runs that slip by without media coverage has to be seen as a fail for us.
You'll be a media communications consultant before you know it.

[Katman]

You'll be a media communications consultant before you know it.

I say fuck too often.

[Berries]

I say fuck too often.
It is just that kind of behaviour that gives motorcyclists a bad name.

[Fatt Max]

I only ever hear the word 'fuck' in this context..

$20 for a hand job, $100 for a full.......

[pc220]

I only ever hear the word 'fuck' in this context..

$20 for a hand job, $100 for a full.......

Mate hate to see what you getting for that sort of $$$. Fork out a bit more and get some ass with class.:spanking:

[idleidolidyll]

Probably right Mike, try as we might have a number of times, the end result was, the support was just never really there. My stance on 'organised kaos' has change in recent months. I now have no problem with it at all. Going peacefully does nothing but appease the authorities. 40-50,000 people marched up Queens St earlier in the year on the very same day we did our last protest ride, we had 100 bikes, we had to wait till the greenies had done thier bit and tag on behind them. I have learned alot about protesting and getting results from watching footage of how it was done in years gone by.
I am now off to find short-circuit.

I said from the start that only news media coverage of lots of angry bikers would work and organised Chaos is the way to achieve that.
Yes, I DO have a degree in it: Communication majoring in PR

The government played us for suckers and as I predicted back then, people are now saying "oh well, at least they didn't hit us with as much as they said they would"

That was always their plan: divide and conquer, make outrageous claims of tripling the bill so we'd be 'happy' with doubling the bill.

and now as I also predicted and even stood up in that meeting at the waterfront in Auckland and said: they are privatising ACC. Which Aussie insurance company will own another slice of NZ's economy?

I really hope MAG eventually becomes what it is in the UK becuase that is what is needed in NZ, not pussying about with laughable rides.

[idleidolidyll]

For the record, and so there is no confusion about what MAG-NZ are about. We are sticking to what we have been all along. We will not deliberately set out to cause mayhem, or inconvience people. We will however organise and encourage people to attend events that due to their nature may cause some disruption for Joe Public. We acknowledge that sometimes our actions will cause inconvienience but we do not set out to deliberately cause it.

Hope that is clear to everyone.

I see, so you're not actually a real MAG like in the UK; you're kinda a Claytons MAG

[caseye]

In reply Ideli , good things take time and here in NZ it takes longer for people to get MAD enough.
It's going to become the MAG-UK of the Pacific don't worry about that, just not tomorrow.
Your predictions were on the money, your current comments while mildly offensive are quite true and therefore as far as I am concerned anyway they will be taken in the context they were spoken.
I've ridden with you many times, I consider you to be direct and to the point, capable and intelligent, please don't write off what may well be the only group who will orgainse events/rides that are in fact gathering more and more people together as things heat up.
MAG-NZ is not going away that is for sure, I'd rather we had your attention, your input and where appropriate support than that we also had to fight a war of words with you too.

[Maha]

I said from the start that only news media coverage of lots of angry bikers would work and organised Chaos is the way to achieve that.
Yes, I DO have a degree in it: Communication majoring in PR

The government played us for suckers and as I predicted back then, people are now saying "oh well, at least they didn't hit us with as much as they said they would"

That was always their plan: divide and conquer, make outrageous claims of tripling the bill so we'd be 'happy' with doubling the bill.

and now as I also predicted and even stood up in that meeting at the waterfront in Auckland and said: they are privatising ACC. Which Aussie insurance company will own another slice of NZ's economy?

I really hope MAG eventually becomes what it is in the UK becuase that is what is needed in NZ, not pussying about with laughable rides.

Cant and wont argue with that either Mike.

[NONONO]

I really hope MAG eventually becomes what it is in the UK becuase that is what is needed in NZ,
It only took them 36 years.........MAG-NZ has been around, what? 3 months?

[Mom]

[B] [MAG-NZ has been around, what? 3 months?

Good things take time :yes:

[BoristheBiter]

and now as I also predicted and even stood up in that meeting at the waterfront in Auckland and said: they are privatising ACC. Which Aussie insurance company will own another slice of NZ's economy?

Is.

They are not privatising ACC, they are opening it up to competition, a big difference and it is only the work place.

All i can say is well about time . All you people sit here and cry that the ACC levies are too high and then cry when they try and do something about it.

If you don't want to go with another insurer than stay with ACC, no one will be forcing you to change.

And are you with the kiwibank??

[riffer]

They are not privatising ACC, they are opening it up to competition, a big difference and it is only the work place.

All i can say is well about time . All you people sit here and cry that the ACC levies are too high and then cry when they try and do something about it.

If you don't want to go with another insurer than stay with ACC, no one will be forcing you to change.

And are you with the kiwibank??

Firstly, there's a vast difference between Kiwibank and the other banks. You would be better off comparing the difference between the old Post Office Savings Bank and the Aussie banks.

Secondly, my issue is with the biggest money earning part of ACC being opened up to competition - a lot of ACC money at present is invested in NZ business and this will be ripped out of the economy.

Thirdly - insurance companies don't have rehabilitation to consider. Only insurance. Therefore the original concept of ACC can be further whittled away with this.

If the biggest money earner goes away from ACC watch the levies go up even further.

Would you like to pay $1000 a year to rego your bike? It could happen, along with paying $3000 a year for workplace insurance, with nowhere near the same benefits either...

and what's the likelihood the right to sue would return? None.

Wake up and smell the coffee mate. This is not an case where "Everyone Gets a Bargain".

[BoristheBiter]

Firstly, there's a vast difference between Kiwibank and the other banks. You would be better off comparing the difference between the old Post Office Savings Bank and the Aussie banks.

Secondly, my issue is with the biggest money earning part of ACC being opened up to competition - a lot of ACC money at present is invested in NZ business and this will be ripped out of the economy.

Thirdly - insurance companies don't have rehabilitation to consider. Only insurance. Therefore the original concept of ACC can be further whittled away with this.

If the biggest money earner goes away from ACC watch the levies go up even further.

Would you like to pay $1000 a year to rego your bike? It could happen, along with paying $3000 a year for workplace insurance, with nowhere near the same benefits either...

and what's the likelihood the right to sue would return? None.

Wake up and smell the coffee mate. This is not an case where "Everyone Gets a Bargain".

:violin::violin::violin:
Cry me a river.

Like i said if you don't like it stay with ACC no one will be forcing you to change.

FYI when we were able to go with @work for our work place We paid around $3k less each year and when one of our staff had an accident they couldn't do enough to help, paid 90% of his wages and followed up each week, ACC on the other hand pays you only 80%, just wants to stop paying you and never returns phone calls when they fuck up.

[James Deuce]

:violin::violin::violin:
Cry me a river.

Like i said if you don't like it stay with ACC no one will be forcing you to change.

FYI when we were able to go with @work for our work place We paid around $3k less each year and when one of our staff had an accident they couldn't do enough to help, paid 90% of his wages and followed up each week, ACC on the other hand pays you only 80%, just wants to stop paying you and never returns phone calls when they fuck up.

Ahh yes another one who believes that the capitalist model can only produce golden examples of how to look after people. Place where I worked back during the last privatisation attempt , our Aussie based ACC replacement went bust. One of the women at work received multiple fractures of one of her legs in an international sporting event and simply lost her income and had to come into work. We had to to lift her on to the loo amongst other things. I think 80% from ACC is a much better deal than nothing.

I have no faith in profit driven income protection insurance schemes, particularly when you look at how many Aussie insurance companies went broke trying to compete with ACC last time. When those companies go broke people suffer, but I guess that isn't important when you save a buck here and there.

[Owl]

Good things take time :yes:

Say "Cheese":D

[Scuba_Steve]

They are not privatising ACC, they are opening it up to competition, a big difference and it is only the work place.

All i can say is well about time . All you people sit here and cry that the ACC levies are too high and then cry when they try and do something about it.


Wow you are blinded "opening it up to competition" is 1st step towards privatization. I didn't think anyone ever fell for "management" speak, guess I was wrong.

And people we're complaining about the hike for this exact reason, it was unjustified, unneeded & only reason it was done was to have a profit margin worth private insurers time.

[MSTRS]

And people we're complaining about the hike for this exact reason, it was unjustified, unneeded & only reason it was done was to have a profit margin worth private insurers time.

Exactly. It took all of 5 minutes to work out why the levy hikes were happening, way back a year ago.
Few of us were fooled by Nick the Prick's rhetoric about ACC being broke. But how many are we? We'd be in an entirely different place right now, if the rest of the country could be bothered to the extent we are.

[BoristheBiter]

Ahh yes another one who believes that the capitalist model can only produce golden examples of how to look after people. Place where I worked back during the last privatisation attempt , our Aussie based ACC replacement went bust. One of the women at work received multiple fractures of one of her legs in an international sporting event and simply lost her income and had to come into work. We had to to lift her on to the loo amongst other things. I think 80% from ACC is a much better deal than nothing.

I have no faith in profit driven income protection insurance schemes, particularly when you look at how many Aussie insurance companies went broke trying to compete with ACC last time. When those companies go broke people suffer, but I guess that isn't important when you save a buck here and there.

Sorry to hear that you employer was shit at choosing a scheme for their workplace insurance.
I agree that guide lines need to be set and that some will fail badly and that needs to be sorted out by the government before this goes ahead.
And if you still don't want it you can vote the nats out and labour back in.:facepalm: as it will not come into effect until the after the election.

[BoristheBiter]

Wow you are blinded "opening it up to competition" is 1st step towards privatization. I didn't think anyone ever fell for "management" speak, guess I was wrong.

And people we're complaining about the hike for this exact reason, it was unjustified, unneeded & only reason it was done was to have a profit margin worth private insurers time.

See thats where you are so wrong. I am not blinded, I am all in favor of private health insurance.
It would mean that i don't have to put up with the third world health system that you love so much, if thats what we pay for then you can keep it.

[BMWST?]

Sorry to hear that you employer was shit at choosing a scheme for their workplace insurance.
I agree that guide lines need to be set and that some will fail badly and that needs to be sorted out by the government before this goes ahead.
And if you still don't want it you can vote the nats out and labour back in.:facepalm: as it will not come into effect until the after the election.

sorted by the government?I thought the whole idea was the government became LESS involved.Why pay two lots of administration fees?
With the splitting out of individual parts of the whole the whole idea of ACC is weakened,and groups such as ours have to be targeted to make the remainder "stand alone" which is also not part of the overall ideals.

[yungatart]

Sorry to hear that you employer was shit at choosing a scheme for their workplace insurance.
I agree that guide lines need to be set and that some will fail badly and that needs to be sorted out by the government before this goes ahead.


See, that's just it. Employers will want to save as much as they can in these difficult times, so they may opt for the cheapest cover, not necessarily the best...and who will suffer? The employee....

As to Govt setting guidelines and sorting things out before this goes ahead. You what? They are only interested in setting the whole thing up for sale...not who gets hurt in the process

[Scuba_Steve]

See thats where you are so wrong. I am not blinded, I am all in favor of private health insurance.
It would mean that i don't have to put up with the third world health system that you love so much, if thats what we pay for then you can keep it.

I suggest you go watch 'sicko' and the phrase "be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.

[MSTRS]

See thats where you are so wrong. I am not blinded, I am all in favor of private health insurance.
It would mean that i don't have to put up with the third world health system that you love so much, if thats what we pay for then you can keep it.

Just what does that have to do with ACCIDENT cover?

[Mom]

It would mean that i don't have to put up with the third world health system that you love so much, if thats what we pay for then you can keep it.

I cant afford private insurance. So where does that leave me then?

I can tell you.

I have had first had experience of our third world health care this year. Two hospital admittances for completely different things. No waiting, no mucking around, I got sick, I got treated. The staff, nurses and doctors are all wonderful, the only part of this health care system that let me down was ACC, go figure that? They refused to pay for two ambulance trips to hospital because they happened over 24 hours after the "injury" happened.

[BoristheBiter]

I cant afford private insurance. So where does that leave me then?

I can tell you.

I have had first had experience of our third world health care this year. Two hospital admittances for completely different things. No waiting, no mucking around, I got sick, I got treated. The staff, nurses and doctors are all wonderful, the only part of this health care system that let me down was ACC, go figure that? They refused to pay for two ambulance trips to hospital because they happened over 24 hours after the "injury" happened.

In todays system i am glad you haven't had the problems I have had with our health system.
1) Mother was having massive pains in back chest arrive at hospo by ambo.
takes 2 hours to be seen by doctor, 12 hours later she night have gall stones.
1 week later she gets a gangrenous gall bladder removed, infection spread.
2) tried to rip leg off on bike 8 hours to be seen by doctor, 3 hours to sort out whats wrong.

surgical cover for legs to be operated on, straight away, top staff, top food, top equipment, top rehabilitation.

Nothing will suit everyone so we need to have the choice on what we want.
Do i want to see ACC go? no. Do i want to see it sold off? no. Do I want it to be run by some one other than the government? No. Do i want the right to choose my insurer? yes.
You never know I might stay with ACC, they might have the better service but i should have the right to choose.

[avgas]

I cant afford private insurance. So where does that leave me then?
Actually you can Mom.
Cancel the ACC in your rego and your 1/3 the way there.
Aussie health insurance firms aren't as gluttonous as the US ones.
My health insurance there cost less than $1800/year

[mashman]

You never know I might stay with ACC, they might have the better service but i should have the right to choose.

BUT. You can't have both!

Of the people i've spoken with over the last few months are anything to go by. MOST would prefer to choose their own health insurer. This creates a BIG problem for ACC, they're the high earners. The current top end of the ACC revenue stream would then be shared across the entire insurance industry.

Damage the ACC "brand" as best you can, BRAND IS EVERYTHING and it's done! If you're not happy with the service and can afford it, you will probably pay more for your private health cover. They'll guarantee everything, but you can afford it, fair play. That takes revenue away from the ACC. Take revenue away from the ACC, in any substantial numbers (high earners), and ACC Levies will go through the roof! as it's revenue stream would be shared amongst the "competition". Do that with every other account, and the govt of the day will sell ACC, because it will be costing the country a fortune. It will be privatised or left for dead.

At that point in time, we will have fully solved Nicks problem of competing unfairly... as ACC won't be able to undercut the private guys anymore, and won't have any profit to return either.

That's how I see the future. You can fill in the social consequences yourself.

[Ocean1]

BUT. You can't have both!

'Swot I said: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132421-National-opens-ACC-to-private-sector?p=1129939384#post1129939384

[BoristheBiter]

BUT.

That's how I see the future. You can fill in the social consequences yourself.

Social consequences?? What has that got to do with it?

[mashman]

Social consequences?? What has that got to do with it?

Nothing to some.

[mashman]

'Swot I said: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/132421-National-opens-ACC-to-private-sector?p=1129939384#post1129939384

funny that :)

[idleidolidyll]

They are not privatising ACC, they are opening it up to competition, a big difference and it is only the work place.

You believe that bullshit????? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

All i can say is well about time . All you people sit here and cry that the ACC levies are too high and then cry when they try and do something about it.

All they are doing 'about it' is to sell it off to mates for favours. ACC is the envy of the world and National is throwing it away without giving us back the right to sue. Fuck em; they're liars and chaets

If you don't want to go with another insurer than stay with ACC, no one will be forcing you to change.

And are you with the kiwibank??

I'm surprised that such naievity still exists over this subject after the oh so obvious screw over we receive by the smirking monkey and his sidekicks

[BoristheBiter]

I'm surprised that such naievity still exists over this subject after the oh so obvious screw over we receive by the smirking monkey and his sidekicks

You must vote labour as you have no valid facts to base your argument on so you resort to name calling and personally insult others.

Last time when the Nats where in and they opened it up they didn't sell it off, no changers where made to ACC, it just meant you could go somewhere else for your cover.

If you don't like the idea of being responsible for yourself and would like the government to hold your hand and wipe your arse then fine, but like a lot of other people I would like to choose what cover want.

[MSTRS]

Last time when the Nats where in and they opened it up they didn't sell it off, no changers where made to ACC, it just meant you could go somewhere else for your cover.


We can make an educated guess though. It was a 'testing of the waters'. But they didn't stay in long enough to take it further.

[BoristheBiter]

We can make an educated guess though. It was a 'testing of the waters'. But they didn't stay in long enough to take it further.

Yes we can make an educated guess if labour was in we would be even worse off.

[MSTRS]

Could be. Who's to know? One thing is for sure - it would be for different reasons.

How do we educate the public to vote for STV. That is the only way to get a truly representative parliament, and to get rid of the deadweight list members.

[James Deuce]

Yes we can make an educated guess if labour was in we would be even worse off.


Naaah, the only guarantee about any Government is that they'll give themselves pay rises even when the economy is on the verge of foundering and most people have experienced a net reduction in income over the last two years.

You've got to stop thinking National and Labour when you think "Government". It's why things are in such an unholy mess. Be creative. Use those two votes to meld a political vision together instead of relying on narrow interest parties who are firmly wedged in the status quo.

The only party with NZ's future at heart is the Maori Party. You may not agree with their policies and you most certainly won't agree with the essentially racist founding principles but they're the only party committed to maintaining a distinct NZ identity.

[riffer]

The only party with NZ's future at heart is the Maori Party. You may not agree with their policies and you most certainly won't agree with the essentially racist founding principles but they're the only party committed to maintaining a distinct NZ identity.

Be that as it may I have yet to hear one skerrick of information from the MP about economics and/or health issues that impact on anyone other than their current constituents. I fear that they remain tied to their racist founding principles too much to ever deal with more than one element of society's issues.