Chain and sprockets?

[Hitcher]

I mean, what's that all about?

After over 200,000km ridden on motorcycles, I will shortly be up for my first replacement chain and sprockets.

I know little about chains, other than that they are bastards to keep clean.

What questions should I be asking about replacement chains and what should I be looking to avoid?

[sinned]

It is not as if you are replacing chains and sprockets as often as tyres. They are lasting you so long it is a wonder you have not changed the bike? My recommendation is don't take any risks and replace with the genuine parts for the bike. This may after all be a once in a life time experience and you wouldn't want to cock it up.

Of course this being KB you will get heaps of advice on which are the best types of chain etc. The economics of it are simple - for the life time of the chain a few dollars in price difference makes little difference and the OEM lasts longer than most keep a bike if they are lubed.

[SPP]

I recently bought another set of sprockets and chain to have on hand and did some trawling around. Here's what I found (worth a least 2c, probably as much as 10c)

Before I launch into it I still think OEM sprockets and chain with regular cleaning and lube will last WAAAY longer than a poorly maintained bling set (assuming OEM quality isn’t ‘China cheap’). You’re probably evidence to that. Also bear in mind that sometimes good OEM can cost as much as good aftermarket. Ok, now on to the bling…

Chain and Sprocket changed together
The pretty well accepted practice to change the sprockets and chain at the same time, even if the sprockets don’t look too bad. I’m not sure what is "ok" worn from "too" worn but for me the reassurance of new sprockets is worth the ‘little’ bit’ extra cost for me. The chain is usually the most expensive bit by quite a margin.

Happy with the current gearing, want to change ratios?
It’s common for people to lose a tooth on the front and to add teeth to the rear as well if you're really keen (-1/+2) for more lively gearing. I personally like stock because I commute a lot. If I only used it for Sunday rides or track days then I’d probably be playing around.

Gearing Commander is a really good site for playing around with changes to sprockets, tyre sizes etc. It also calculates chain length and chain wear for chosen sprocket ratios. http://www.gearingcommander.com/

Note: Stock ratios may be different for different markets e.g. CBR US: 16/42, Europe: 16/41 , Japan 16/40 so a US dude using +2 rear is a +3 rear for NZ or +4 rear for Japan.

Sprocket Material (Aluminium or Steel or both?)
It’s common for people to choose aluminium for weight savings or better product range (brand, ratios etc). I’ve heard that Driven and AFAM are good if aluminium is your thing... and Vortex is second tier by comparison.

I've bought full steel both times (but lightweight) because I didn’t think the weight saving was worth any reduced durability. There’s also "Supersprox STEALTH" (Aluminium carrier/Steel teeth) for less weight than full steel and look really bling. http://www.supersproxusa.com/

Chains
My Honda OEM was a 525HV which is an x-ring made by D.I.D. They don’t sell these anymore except as an OEM part now (I am told). An x-ring (or Z-ring) seal does a much better job that than O-Ring. It's debatable whether an O-ring is still more than enough for most people. For me, if OEM was x-ring then my replacement must also be x-ring.

My first chain change was precautionary at 25k because I didn’t want to deal with a snapped chain in the wop wops. I changed it too early IMO. I went with D.I.D 525VM2 which is the equivalent aftermarket with similar tensile strength and durability. It was also cheaper than a "Honda" one. It just so happens that it's gold and looks bling.

Some reputable chain brands are: D.I.D, EK, and RK <others will chime in with more>

Check here for D.I.D specs http://www.didchain.com/specs.htm
Check here for RK specs http://www.rkexcelamerica.com/street_rk_chain.htm

Note: I chose a new chain based on its tensile strength and wear life index, and only used wear life index to compare chains of the same brand e.g. 525VM2 vs 520EVR3 rather than comparing different brands. I didn’t really believe the manufacturer value as an absolute rating e.g.
D.I.D state WLI: standard =100, X-ring premium: 525VM2=3450, 520EVR3=3100
RK state WLI: standard=100, X-ring premium: GB525GXW=1000, GB520GXW=1000

Chain Pitch Conversions (525->520, 530->525/520)
520, 525, 530 relate to the chain pitch but imply thicker side plates and stronger pins for higher strength and better wear. This is not true in all cases since a high spec 520 chain can be stronger than a lower spec 525 or 530.

On my new set of sprockets and chain I went with 520 (from 525). Not for weight saving but because a 520 sprocket was the only pitch in stock with the tooth count I wanted (standard rear and +1 rear). The package price was cheaper than 525 as well even with top spec’d 520EVR3 (stronger than 525VM2 and close wear index). There seems to be a lot of info floating around on the weight advantages of converting to 520 but I’m not so sure average Joe would notice the difference. If going for 520, get a GOOD chain and sprockets.

[Taz]

130,000kms on my BMW R1100 and haven't changed a drive chain yet.

[roadracingoldfart]

Of course this being KB you will get heaps of advice on which are the best types of chain etc. The economics of it are simple - for the life time of the chain a few dollars in price difference makes little difference and the OEM lasts longer than most keep a bike if they are lubed.


So are you forgetting the fact the chain from an OEM source is whats sitting on the shelf from a world renouned chain manufacturer ???

If a chain is for EG; an O.E.M. R.K chain , then i could bet my left testy the bike shop will sell you a chain from the shelf exactly the same type and the same brand. They wont have a chain pacaged in a motorcycle brand box to sell you.

If you went to an industrial transmission wholesaler and got the same brand and same type of chain , i would hazzard to guess its a fair bit cheaper.
Upshot is , the OEM is the same as the aftermarket available , just the price is differant depending where you buy it.

[roadracingoldfart]

130,000kms on my BMW R1100 and haven't changed a drive chain yet.

You should let BMW know what a wonderfull ecconomical bike they made and how gentle it is on chains :innocent: :shifty: :shutup:

[MIXONE]

Just to add to this the next time I have to change my chain/sprockets I want to gear the bike down by about 10%.
Is it better to go smaller front or larger rear?Or both?

[98tls]

Fwiw ive long since used Tri metal sprockets Hitch,you just cant wear them out.:innocent:Then again i only ride an old jap shitter,you have no need for such things.

[98tls]

Just to add to this the next time I have to change my chain/sprockets I want to gear the bike down by about 10%.
Is it better to go smaller front or larger rear?Or both?

Go up on the rear by 2.

[sinned]

It is not as if you are replacing chains and sprockets as often as tyres. They are lasting you so long it is a wonder you have not changed the bike? My recommendation is don't take any risks and replace with the genuine parts for the bike. This may after all be a once in a life time experience and you wouldn't want to cock it up.

Of course this being KB you will get heaps of advice on which are the best types of chain etc. The economics of it are simple - for the life time of the chain a few dollars in price difference makes little difference and the OEM lasts longer than most keep a bike if they are lubed.


So are you forgetting the fact the chain from an OEM source is whats sitting on the shelf from a world renouned chain manufacturer ???

If a chain is for EG; an O.E.M. R.K chain , then i could bet my left testy the bike shop will sell you a chain from the shelf exactly the same type and the same brand. They wont have a chain pacaged in a motorcycle brand box to sell you.

If you went to an industrial transmission wholesaler and got the same brand and same type of chain , i would hazzard to guess its a fair bit cheaper.
Upshot is , the OEM is the same as the aftermarket available , just the price is differant depending where you buy it.

You may well be correct about the manufacturer of the chain, where the OEM comes from and the same chain may be lower priced elsewhere. My point is that as a well lubed chain on a road bike lasts so long the difference in cost over time is not worth bothering with and it takes time to research suitable chains, find a source, go buy it etc. If you value your time (have little spare time) it is just not worth it. In my spare time I prefer to ride.

[roadracingoldfart]

You may well be correct about the manufacturer of the chain, where the OEM comes from and the same chain may be lower priced elsewhere. My point is that as a well lubed chain on a road bike lasts so long the difference in cost over time is not worth bothering with and it takes time to research suitable chains, find a source, go buy it etc. If you value your time (have little spare time) it is just not worth it. In my spare time I prefer to ride.

I just dont like pushing after the cheap chain broke lol.

Stick with a known brand and the product will not let you down , all the readily available brands like DID , RK , Tsubaki , etc are all good.
The other very importand part of a chain is the link , get a good rivet link and make sure its staked correctly.

Paul.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
If a chain is for EG; an O.E.M. R.K chain , then i could bet my left testy the bike shop will sell you a chain from the shelf exactly the same type and the same brand. They wont have a chain pacaged in a motorcycle brand box to sell you. . .

Of course you are right, with the provision that every manufacturer has range of chains varying from damn fine to pretty damn average. Unless you buy Vagina chain which seems only to be smeg (maybe that has changed).


. . . If you went to an industrial transmission wholesaler and got the same brand and same type of chain , i would hazzard to guess its a fair bit cheaper.
Upshot is , the OEM is the same as the aftermarket available , just the price is different depending where you buy it.
There your left testy is on more shaky ground. Industrial chains usually run at a fairly consistent speed, whereas bike chains have to contend with continual botched gear changes & hamfisted wheelie attempts. They are apparently different specs. Mishy may show up at a later date if he's on the net with more info. or Hitcher if you go talk to Andrew at TSS you won't find many with more product knowledge. You will of course need the correct chain riveting tool, or pay someone to do it.

[The Stranger]

I recently bought another set of sprockets and chain to have on hand and did some trawling around. Here's what I found (worth a least 2c, probably as much as 10c)

Before I launch into it I still think OEM sprockets and chain with regular cleaning and lube will last WAAAY longer than a poorly maintained bling set (assuming OEM quality isn’t ‘China cheap’). You’re probably evidence to that. Also bear in mind that sometimes good OEM can cost as much as good aftermarket. Ok, now on to the bling…

Chain and Sprocket changed together
The pretty well accepted practice to change the sprockets and chain at the same time, even if the sprockets don’t look too bad. I’m not sure what is "ok" worn from "too" worn but for me the reassurance of new sprockets is worth the ‘little’ bit’ extra cost for me. The chain is usually the most expensive bit by quite a margin.

Happy with the current gearing, want to change ratios?
It’s common for people to lose a tooth on the front and to add teeth to the rear as well if you're really keen (-1/+2) for more lively gearing. I personally like stock because I commute a lot. If I only used it for Sunday rides or track days then I’d probably be playing around.

Gearing Commander is a really good site for playing around with changes to sprockets, tyre sizes etc. It also calculates chain length and chain wear for chosen sprocket ratios. http://www.gearingcommander.com/

Note: Stock ratios may be different for different markets e.g. CBR US: 16/42, Europe: 16/41 , Japan 16/40 so a US dude using +2 rear is a +3 rear for NZ or +4 rear for Japan.

Sprocket Material (Aluminium or Steel or both?)
It’s common for people to choose aluminium for weight savings or better product range (brand, ratios etc). I’ve heard that Driven and AFAM are good if aluminium is your thing... and Vortex is second tier by comparison.

I've bought full steel both times (but lightweight) because I didn’t think the weight saving was worth any reduced durability. There’s also "Supersprox STEALTH" (Aluminium carrier/Steel teeth) for less weight than full steel and look really bling. http://www.supersproxusa.com/

Chains
My Honda OEM was a 525HV which is an x-ring made by D.I.D. They don’t sell these anymore except as an OEM part now (I am told). An x-ring (or Z-ring) seal does a much better job that than O-Ring. It's debatable whether an O-ring is still more than enough for most people. For me, if OEM was x-ring then my replacement must also be x-ring.

My first chain change was precautionary at 25k because I didn’t want to deal with a snapped chain in the wop wops. I changed it too early IMO. I went with D.I.D 525VM2 which is the equivalent aftermarket with similar tensile strength and durability. It was also cheaper than a "Honda" one. It just so happens that it's gold and looks bling.

Some reputable chain brands are: D.I.D, EK, and RK <others will chime in with more>

Check here for D.I.D specs http://www.didchain.com/specs.htm
Check here for RK specs http://www.rkexcelamerica.com/street_rk_chain.htm

Note: I chose a new chain based on its tensile strength and wear life index, and only used wear life index to compare chains of the same brand e.g. 525VM2 vs 520EVR3 rather than comparing different brands. I didn’t really believe the manufacturer value as an absolute rating e.g.
D.I.D state WLI: standard =100, X-ring premium: 525VM2=3450, 520EVR3=3100
RK state WLI: standard=100, X-ring premium: GB525GXW=1000, GB520GXW=1000

Chain Pitch Conversions (525->520, 530->525/520)
520, 525, 530 relate to the chain pitch but imply thicker side plates and stronger pins for higher strength and better wear. This is not true in all cases since a high spec 520 chain can be stronger than a lower spec 525 or 530.

On my new set of sprockets and chain I went with 520 (from 525). Not for weight saving but because a 520 sprocket was the only pitch in stock with the tooth count I wanted (standard rear and +1 rear). The package price was cheaper than 525 as well even with top spec’d 520EVR3 (stronger than 525VM2 and close wear index). There seems to be a lot of info floating around on the weight advantages of converting to 520 but I’m not so sure average Joe would notice the difference. If going for 520, get a GOOD chain and sprockets.

Ah sprocket science - only on KB can someone make such a meal of such a mundane topic.

You could just ride into your nearest bike shop and ask them to replace the chain and sprockets, pay your money and ride off when the job is done.

[SPP]

Ah sprocket science - only on KB can someone make such a meal of such a mundane topic.

You could just ride into your nearest bike shop and ask them to replace the chain and sprockets, pay your money and ride off when the job is done.

You're welcome, yes a meal alright...ah well

Q. "What questions should I be asking about replacement chains and what should I be looking to avoid?"
A. "Pull out wallet. Pay someone to do something. Ride away when they've finished doing it"

Much cleaner. I like it.

[Hitcher]

Hitcher if you go talk to Andrew at TSS you won't find many with more product knowledge. You will of course need the correct chain riveting tool, or pay someone to do it.

Noted. I plan to pay somebody to do this. I long ago learned the extent of my mechanical competency. This task falls outside of it.

[blackdog]

Hitcher if you go talk to Andrew at TSS you won't find many with more product knowledge.

yup Andrews the man....

[roadracingoldfart]

Of course you are right, with the provision that every manufacturer has range of chains varying from damn fine to pretty damn average. Unless you buy Vagina chain which seems only to be smeg (maybe that has changed).


There your left testy is on more shaky ground. Industrial chains usually run at a fairly consistent speed, whereas bike chains have to contend with continual botched gear changes & hamfisted wheelie attempts. They are apparently different specs. Mishy may show up at a later date if he's on the net with more info. or Hitcher if you go talk to Andrew at TSS you won't find many with more product knowledge. You will of course need the correct chain riveting tool, or pay someone to do it.

Your assuming industrial chain / transmission wholesalers only do the chain in industrial varients. I have a trade background in transmissin supply and in the 90s i was the asshole that started to supply chain to fit a bike off a roll with either rivet or conn link options, i sold so much i had to indent another order via airfrieght and eventually started to sell and stock precut RK chain. The local shops didnt like me much for that lol . I also sold other chains to bike related usage fields and never had a failure that was highlighted to me, old pre unit nortons etc springs to mind. The thing is , all chain manufacturers make industrial and bike aimed chains, they market them to seperate fields for a very good reason . I was working for a Renold chain distributor for about 5 years and they only sold 2 sizes / types of bike aimed chain but others sold the full range.

Your almost correct in your guess about industrial applications being a static speed with some applications experiancing very little torque loading but the same chain can be used in a high torque application with the same expected life.
I think you are in the Hutt (sorry if im wrong there) well you can go to an industrial supply outlet in the area and buy a DID 520 o-ring for a shit load less that the bike shops sell it , fact old chap.
All you need to do is pick a suitable load rated chain and go from there , an industrial chain will not let you down.
As for Misshy , i have been in this game for 25 odd years but i repect his knowledge.
Yes i do agree , a suitable chain staking tool is good but its not the only way to do it if you have experiance.

Paul.

[F5 Dave]

Your assuming industrial chain / transmission wholesalers only do the chain in industrial varients. . .
um, well yeah. Sorry Roadracin gold fart, I'm not an expert here, but have had the ear educated by several, admittedly distributor biased chaps. Mainly my old adversary, arch nemisis & in a previous life flatmate Darrin who you may remember from the same stable. Funny I almost noted that there was a crowd that supplied chain (Shrodaco (sp) I think) from roll but they had stopped doing so. Always thought it was Underwater-Murray who was behind that.

So what have we (collectively) learned here? Fairly safe saying that std industrial chain won't break but will be a poor choice on a motorbike. However Paul reckons that there are grades that may be equivalent to decent bike grades? Or indeed the same chain? Presumably with a different product code?

[NZsarge]

Fwiw ive long since used Tri metal sprockets Hitch,you just cant wear them out.:innocent:Then again i only ride an old jap shitter,you have no need for such things.

*sigh* Them rims are purdy...

[Biggles08]

*sigh* Them rims are purdy...
I can do you a deal Sarge...all you gotta do is ask :-) CARROZZERIA rims really are purdy....and awesome to ride on!

[roadracingoldfart]

Funny I almost noted that there was a crowd that supplied chain (Shrodaco (sp) I think) from roll but they had stopped doing so. Always thought it was Underwater-Murray who was behind that.




Yes it was R.C Schroder & Company (Schrodoco) in Tory St Wgtn, Alicetown L/H and Linns Auto's in Masterton.
We were inundated by cyclists requests and were stocking approx 50 chains per branch pre-packed after i changed to RK . The demand was good from the punters but the reputation was somewhat aggro from the other resellers around , i was marking up from cost to (from memory) 45% and was at the time about
50 odd% cheaper than the local bike shops. All i did was put a small classified add in the Evening Post stating the cost per link and the orders started flowing lol.
As a note , all power transmission equipment suppliers will tell you if the chain they have is or isnt suitable for a bike as a matter of integrity and if they dont i would suggest they are falling into the dodgy catagory of money grabbing bastards.

Paul.

[NZsarge]

I can do you a deal Sarge...all you gotta do is ask :-) CARROZZERIA rims really are purdy....and awesome to ride on!

He he, nice try mate but we've had this conversation already.. y'know, love to but can't afford too etc....

[Brian d marge]

As per R.o.Fart has said
I deal with DID quite a bit and have the design book upstairs ( will edit this post later when i wander up to the office )

but any good quality manufacturer is ok they are all about the same

if, ( I assume ) you are going to drop it off to a dealer , they probably just order one in of said known brand with said mark up , but what you can do to lengthen the chain life is lower the loading for the chain

One of my Enfields uses a 530 on larger/smaller sprokets with a decent cush drive on the rear ( with a version of a scott oiler ) I got 20 000 MILES out of cheap black ( untoleranced ) chain

A happy camper was i

Good luck, and thank you for the comma , 200k on one chain would be awesome !

Stephen

[mouldy]

130,000kms on my BMW R1100 and haven't changed a drive chain yet.

What about your timing chain ?

[schrodingers cat]

[QUOTE=roadracingoldfart;1129798036]

If you went to an industrial transmission wholesaler and got the same brand and same type of chain , i would hazzard to guess its a fair bit cheaper.
QUOTE]

To clarify - I'm hoping RROF is suggesting buying motorcycle chain from industrial transmission wholesaler.

Please DO NOT try using industrial chain on your bike.
Most industrial chain is designed for much slower speeds than what they would experience on your bike. As a result the heat treatment is a bit different (harder but not as 'tough')
You risk the side plates shattering if you try this.
The risk obviously increases with the drive train speed and higher power

Use motorcycle chain on a motorcycle.

Todays safety notice ends.

[Taz]

What about your timing chain ?

What's that :lol: Should be good for the life of the bike as it's not a honda.

[p.dath]

What's that :lol: Should be good for the life of the bike as it's not a honda.

Having replaced my cam chain recently I can tell you there are more reasons to replace it than waiting till it is completely shot.

As the chain stretches it affects the timing, and the bikes performance. My bike is like a different machine to ride now. I had trouble blipping down for the first couple of minutes I rent riding after the cam chain change because there was so much more power.

I changed my cam chain at 70k. I'm thinking of doing it at 50k now I have seen the huge performance difference it makes.