Corner braking - should I do it or not?

[auvicua]

Being a newbie, I found myself facing a dilemma here.
On the way home this Saturday, after entering a corner, I realised I was going too fast for it. My instinct was slowing down by applying the brakes, but one thing I remember from my BHC was NEVER apply breaks in a concer! You will crash if you do! Instead, I leaned my body/the bike further to get me out of the coner. But it was a pretty close call though, I felt I was really close to get out my lane.
So my question is: should I ever break IN a corner and what should I do if I found I was going too fast after I got into the corner?
Can some experinced riders shed some light on this issue for me! People on this forum have helped me a lot and making my riding so much fun :yes:Thanks guys!
Charlie

[Taz]

I'd say just lean and look thru the corner to where you want to end up. You go where you look. You probably surprised yourself as to how far you could lean and still nothing touvhed down. Other than that I can't add much more as I just ride and don't really analyze it that much.

[2wheeldrifter]

Get Twist of the wrist book 2... and read it!

end of story :)

It's called trail braking what you are meaning, yes you can do it, it's knowing your limits/feel of your brakes before locking up on you... READ THE BOOK!

Maybe as Anthrax has said... maybe it wasn't as bad as you thought?? always look where you want to go and you'll go there...

[Jantar]

As anthrax says, look at where you want to go and push harder on the inside handlebar. That is generally a better option than braking mid corner. Nine times out of ten you'll find that you will get around that bend by following that advice. There are times that I go against my own advice here, although not often. The times that I tend to brake mid corner aren't those where I'm simply too hot, but rather its those times that I'm not looking where I'm going (like admiring the scenery rather than the road), and despite what others may say, it happens to everyone at some stage. In these cases it may be a matter of braking to peel off as much speed as possible, then throwing it into the corner at the last possible moment.

On a good surface, don't be scared to use your brakes while heeled over for the corner, but be prepared for the feeling that you WILL need a lot more pressure on the bars to prevent the bike from standing up. Also let up on the brakes and get onto the throttle before you get down to a speed too slow for the corner.

[R6_kid]

if you're coming into corners too hot then I'd first take your overall speed down a few notches and learn to get set up for corners before entering them, it's much better to go into a corner at a slower more comfortable speed and be on the gas accelerating through the later part of the corner as this actually helps you turn. The main thing once in a corner is not upsetting the bike - strictly speaking, applying the brakes in a corner won't make you crash, unless of course you are too sudden or apply too much pressure for the amount of residual grip you have left, that is usable grip that you are not already using by cornering.

Braking mid-corner affects the geometry of the bike and therefore changes your trajectory, it also affects your speed which in turn will change the radius of turn for a given lean angle. So taking this into account you can see that if you brake, you also have to apply appropriate turning inputs to compensate - this means that you may be using up more of your grip to the point that you run out and end up taking a slide. In simple terms, applying the rear brake will settle the bike and tighten your line, using the front will tend to make the bike 'stand up' and cause you to run wide.

To get your head around this I'd suggest finding a quiet road/cul de sac/industrial area/carpark where you can play with light brake inputs mid-corner at a constant speed (as in, do it many times at the same speed) and feel the affects for yourself, this is the only way you will truly understand it. Remember that no matter what the situation is, when you are braking you need to be smooth and precise, and you can never get enough practice.

[onearmedbandit]

Putting the front brakes on will do the exact opposite of what you want to happen, in other words the bike will want to stand up and therefore run wider. As pointed out above look through the corner and lean the bike in. You can use the rear brake lightly mid-corner, this can tighten your line but unless your proficient at understanding how your bike reacts to change I would not recommend trying this, as it would be far to easy to apply too much pressure and lock the rear.

[R6_kid]

Also let up on the brakes and get onto the throttle before you get down to a speed too slow for the corner.

How can you be too slow for a corner? Any speed at which you come out the other side in one piece is the right speed.

[Jantar]

.... Any speed at which you come out the other side in one piece is the right speed. This part is true. Its how you go about getting down to this exit speed that is important. Pm sent.

[YellowDog]

Well done for not braking mid corner because you might have otherwise had you first practical lesson in the infamous mid-corner 'High side' manoeuvre :)

Being a noob, you may not yet understand countersteering and how to force the bike tio lean further for you.

Reading the book is excellent advice as little snippets and pointers might prove to be counter productive.

Good luck.

[OutForADuck]

Lots of good advice here for you. All of it, pretty much the right stuff to do.

Firstly plan your corners better, if you "find" yourself in a corner going to fast you probably weren't thinking about the corner before you got there.
Just apply good corner technique and go for it (always the best option unless you already have things grinding on the ground)
Leave the front brake alone, it does produce the wrong result compared to what you need and also if you lock it you'll definitely NOT get the result you wanted.
Use the back brake gently, it will wash off speed quite quickly and help tighten the corner for you.

Learn about that Vanishing point.... it might just save you all this drama in the future... not to mention, countersteering, corner sets etc etc.

Good to see you wanting to know how to do it better and also good to see you did the right thing and made it round.... Good stuff!!!

[NighthawkNZ]

Two bits of advice;
1)- Don't listen to what DangerousBastard says if he posts here...
2)- Listen to Jantar...

[crazyhorse]

Lean over more - it will help the bike corner better. If you brake going around a corner, it will make the bike want to stand up and straighten up, so try leaning more and more if you think you're going in too fast. Good luck

[p.dath]

The question has been well answered already. There are free taining courses that run everything week called NASS and SASS (North/South Auckland Street Skills). Come along. They are lots of fun.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/77111-North-Auckland-Street-Skills-NASS

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/117274-South-Auckland-Street-Skills

[CookMySock]

You've done the right thing. As has been mentioned, you need the weight off the front wheel, so look out of the corner, crack a little throttle on, and feel the fear and do it anyway.

You can either use all of your traction cornering, or all of it braking, but if you are going to use both then you only get 50/50, so you have to examine your situation and make you own call. If you use all your traction and time to brake, then you had better hope you can stop in the distance you have at hand, because once you are out of room it's way too late to initiate a turn.

Also your bikes' front suspension and steering geometry is much happier if it's not 90% loaded, hence the need to roll a trickle of throttle on to put the C of G backwards slightly.

What you should ignore on any forum, is people who believe their own opinion is the one true truth, and everyone else is wrong. Collect all opinions, understand, filter for your own truth... but you already know this. ;)

Steve

[Katman]

You should be cornering at a speed that if braking is necessary it can be done safely.

[CookMySock]

You should be cornering at a speed that if braking is necessary it can be done safely.Agree completely, but even the Mighty Katman will have had a surprise mid-corner re-think? Hmmm? Once? ;)

Steve

[doc]

Next time your riding. Try putting more weight on the inside grip, can help with the clenching on the seat. Sometimes

[cowpoos]

You've done the right thing. As has been mentioned, you need the weight off the front wheel, so look out of the corner, crack a little throttle on, and feel the fear and do it anyway.

You can either use all of your traction cornering, or all of it braking, but if you are going to use both then you only get 50/50, so you have to examine your situation and make you own call. If you use all your traction and time to brake, then you had better hope you can stop in the distance you have at hand, because once you are out of room it's way too late to initiate a turn.

Also your bikes' front suspension and steering geometry is much happier if it's not 90% loaded, hence the need to roll a trickle of throttle on to put the C of G backwards slightly.

What you should ignore on any forum, is people who believe their own opinion is the one true truth, and everyone else is wrong. Collect all opinions, understand, filter for your own truth... but you already know this. ;)

Steve

Don't post if you don't know what your talking about....

[Lurch]

In the end, if you HAVE to brake in a corner then so be it. Try to avoid having to but sometimes you screw up and you HAVE to. If you're on a track then sure lean harder and apply throttle progressively, on the road when the surface is shit house at best sometimes this isn't realistic, especially for a 'newbie'.

Braking mid corner should be light on the front and back and preferably together. Gentle rear brake or 'trailing' will lengthen the wheel base of a sport bike and can be used carefully on corner entry with good results..

[Goblin]

An expensive and painful lesson I learnt when I was a noobie was not to suddenly shut the throttle off mid corner. Although I didnt hit the car, I did fall off. Ouch!
As has been said here, look where you want to go and lean further. You'll be surprised how far you actually can lean a bike over.

[R-Soul]

Another aspect to be considered. When I was doing the Advanced rider Training day, one of the instructors was telling us about "tread walking", and that when you go around a corner, the natural tendency is for the corner itself to slow you down when you lean into it (i.e. without using brakes, because it is using kinetic energy in deforming the tyre itself in a corner). Well, he may not have explained it like ths, but this was the way I understood it.

Later that day at Jennian corner, I was in too hot, and consciously held myself away from the brakes and leant over harder- and it was surprising how much speed could be scrubbed off by treadwalking. After that I was into that corner a lot faster with my new knowledge.

Now I am not saying that you should go into corners faster. I am saying that you may not need as much braking as you think before leaning, since leaning itself already does quite a job of braking for you.

[slofox]

Despite what some would have us believe, there is always the odd moment when you need to lose speed in a corner. I have had sheep run out from the side of the road, a car come the other way on my side of the road, a massive pot-hole turn up on my line, and various other scenarios. It pays to have a strategy ready to use in such unforeseen circumstances.

Trail braking - when you keep some positive drive on with the throttle but apply the rear brake against that drive - is a very useful tool to have and is not that hard to do - I think I discovered it some 40 years ago riding through the port hills above Christchurch - probably by accident IIRC...

My first reaction in a corner if I have to lose speed for some reason, is to just back off the throttle a little. This seems to tip the bike into the corner enough to help. I also make more positive use of counter-steering nowadays - it seems to work better on the gixxer than it ever did on the SV - no idea why this should be - maybe just my imagination. Or it maybe the shorter wheelbase of the gixxer reacts more to the input - I dunno.

I would only use the brakes as a last resort - trail braking or no.

As has been pointed out by other posters, the best place to lose speed is before the corner, not in it...having said that, most of the time I get into a corner and end up thinking "w'shit, I could gone through here much harder without any drama". Maybe that is why I am still going after 42 years of it...

[Spearfish]

twist of the wrist II and the DVD are full of info once you get past the two main characters piss poor acting. LoL

Its all a head game, and fighting those "S Rs"

[auvicua]

Thanks for all the great advices! They may just save my life one day......:)

[george formby]

Well done on remembering what you were taught & managing to apply it when you had to. That is half the battle, using your knowledge when you have a "moment" rather than letting untrained instincts dominate. Having to brake / slow mid corner will always provoke a quick cheek clench but if your smooth, confident & brake appropriately a modern bike will usually forgive you. Practice, practice, practice to build your confidence & skills. Your controlling the bike & each little situation requires you to make the right decisions & maintain that control to go where you want i.e. out of harms way. So read the books, watch the DVD's & get out their. Have fun.

[Metastable]

There are many different ways to approach this whole scenario. I think the idea of you practicing is probably the best way to go. Get yourself into a controlled situation where you either:
- go to the track
- find an empty business park or nice road where you have checked the corner(s)

Then start to play with things. Here is what I think.

1 - you CAN brake into and in the middle of a corner, but you have to be smooth... no hamfisting allowed. :D
2 - depending on your bike, tires, etc... your bike might want to stand up, but you can also keep counter steering so that it doesn't.
3 - reading Twist of the Wrist is a good idea.
4 - there are various definitions, but trail braking TO ME it means being on the brakes when entering the corner.... you go from A LOT of brake while you are fairly upright to very little brake as you reach the apex.... regardless of front or back, but the back are just adding extra confusion to a tough situation IMO.

Now, I know you are not a pro, but let me play devils advocate a little. How do you think the pros do it? How late do they apply their brakes for any given corner?
Answer: As long as they have to. It could be before the apex, to the apex or even after the apex (although something out of the norm is going on in that last case).

The quickest way to turn a motorcycle is to actually trail brake and then gently starting to apply throttle. And of course things willl feel smoother too, if you start to tip it in while on the brakes, as opposed to getting on them mid corner. However, this technique is complete overkill for the street.... but it is something you should still learn!

So, for street riding, yes you want to try to do most of your braking while vertical. HOWEVER, don't just NOT USE a tool that is at your disposal. Practice so that you can trail brake into a corner and/or grab some brakes mid corner.

Here is an example.... check at the 1:35 marker. The bike being filmed is me (I had no idea my friend was still there, I'm in the black leathers with red CBR) anyway I'm not 100% sure, but I probably grabbed a little bit of front brake there. It's kind of hard to see, but my closing speed on that S1000RR was pretty quick. I even let him go a bit further in front of the next corner, so that I could build momentum and pass him on the next corner exit. You can see it in HD to have a better look. Bottom line is GRAB AWAY, but before you start doing that... practice lots and get as much info as you can.... and ALWAYS look where you want to go.

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[Metastable]

Here I should have just posted this up... found it after. The guy says what I'm trying to say in a much better and more concise manner. BTW, what he says is SPOT ON!
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[Grasshopperus]

As 2wheeldrifter said read "A twist of the wrist part 2".

I can also recommend meeting some mentors to improve your skills, there are good courses on the North Shore (NASS) and Papakura (SASS) that cater for newbs like us. Pick whichever one is closer for you and go for it

Check the links on the calender http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/calendar.php for Wednesday's.

[Grasshopperus]

Oh, and good stuff for handling it :)

[Subike]

Braking in a corner, yeap I do it, have done for many years,
But I do agree that unless you know how your bike handles when you do this,
Unless you have had practice doing it,
Unless you understand the dynamics ,
Slow down till you do,
I agree whith the majority of what has been posted here about not braking in a corner or you riask a high side.
but have to put into the mix of following another bike into a corner and find you are closing that gap faster than you would like,
Not because you are going too fast for the corner, but the other rider, who you have been following at a reasonable pace, is one who although his bike can handle the speed , slows down way more than is needed.
So brakes on or run into him... no amount of leaning or countersterring will save you.
Im sure this will expand this discussion.
SO what do you guys recomend to do?
when following another bike into a corner at a sensibile pace,
and find he/she has dropped of way more speed than is needed to safley get around the corner.
And allowing for the recomendation of, "dont brake in a corner"
Interesting thoughts???

[Spearfish]

Braking in a corner, yeap I do it, have done for many years,
But I do agree that unless you know how your bike handles when you do this,
Unless you have had practice doing it,
Unless you understand the dynamics ,
Slow down till you do,
I agree whith the majority of what has been posted here about not braking in a corner or you riask a high side.
but have to put into the mix of following another bike into a corner and find you are closing that gap faster than you would like,
Not because you are going too fast for the corner, but the other rider, who you have been following at a reasonable pace, is one who although his bike can handle the speed , slows down way more than is needed.
So brakes on or run into him... no amount of leaning or countersterring will save you.
Im sure this will expand this discussion.
SO what do you guys recomend to do?
when following another bike into a corner at a sensibile pace,
and find he/she has dropped of way more speed than is needed to safley get around the corner.
And allowing for the recomendation of, "dont brake in a corner"
Interesting thoughts???

Shouldn't the following rider be leaving enough room to come to a complete stop in the clear space in view to them?
I know in group riding though, especially in a staggered formation, it can tend to get a bit bunched up if everyone is trying for the best line at the start of bends/curves etc. Just to gain room I seem to enter bends slower than I probably would on my own but thats just group dynamics I think.

[CHOPPA]

Its fine just remember you have less grip to brake on and your bike wont turn very well. At some stage your gonna have to suck it up look where you need to go and turn.

You can drag your rear brake which works well. Try Dragging your rear brake when doing U turns and slow round a bouts it makes your bike really stable.... Try it

[Metastable]

Well I just don't know how someone would highside by applying the brakes into the corner. You will always low side, UNLESS someone just jams on the rear.... but why would anyone hit the rear brake going too hot into a corner makes no sense as the front suspension would be loaded.... and the rear unloaded, so you are asking for trouble if you hit the rear brakes.

Look at the racers again....
Lowside = on the brakes usually front corner entry to apex
Highside = on the gas usually from apex to corner exit

[OutForADuck]

Its fine just remember you have less grip to brake on and your bike wont turn very well. At some stage your gonna have to suck it up look where you need to go and turn.

You can drag your rear brake which works well. Try Dragging your rear brake when doing U turns and slow round a bouts it makes your bike really stable.... Try it

Chopper you're onto it... A tecnique they don't teach here for very slow speed handling is fixed (slipping) clutch and throttle and using the rear brake to control your speed .... works beautifully.

Agree also that you can brake into corners. .really deep... but as you point out... less grip and at some point you are going to have to suck it up or bottle out!!!

[OutForADuck]

Its fine just remember you have less grip to brake on and your bike wont turn very well. At some stage your gonna have to suck it up look where you need to go and turn.

You can drag your rear brake which works well. Try Dragging your rear brake when doing U turns and slow round a bouts it makes your bike really stable.... Try it

Chopper you're onto it... A tecnique they don't teach here for very slow speed handling is fixed (slipping) clutch and throttle and using the rear brake to control your speed .... works beautifully.

Agree also that you can brake into corners. .really deep... but as you point out... less grip and at some point you are going to have to suck it up or bottle out!!!

[hospitalfood]

stay off the front brake, it will stand the bike up.
you can gently apply the rear and hold it on gently untill you feel ready to release it, it will help keep the bike stable as well. when you release gently apply throttle

[Roadsafe Nelson]

A tecnique they don't teach here for very slow speed handling is fixed (slipping) clutch and throttle and using the rear brake to control your speed .... works beautifully.

Agree also that you can brake into corners.

What makes you think that is a technique that is not taught here??? :scratch: Roadsafe teach ALL our students that technique for good slow riding control

Braking needs to be done before the corner while the bike is upright & travelling in a straight line.

This person is a NEWBIE rider, he does not need to learn all about how racers ride... :no:

auvicua.. do yourself a favour & get yourself along to a professional rider training school & learn the correct techniques for road riding, as a new rider!!! :yes:

[Metastable]

I absolutely agree that you want to do all your braking while upright when street riding. However, why not practice trail braking under CONTROLLED circumstances for the OH :gob: $#!T moment? Hopefully a rider doesn't have to use it, but if they do.... they might as well have learned it before hand, because trying to figure it out in a panic isn't going to work all that well. All I'm advocating is practicing/training..

On another note - rear brake (this isn't directed towards anyone, I'm just saying) ..... yes you can use the rear brake to settle the bike down and you want to use it for slow speed stuff.... however if someone is coming too hot into a corner, I would assume, that they are hard on the front brakes..... starting to apply the rear at this point is kind of a bad idea, IMO. They should already be on the back brake if anything.... and starting to lay off of it as the corner approaches.

[Roadsafe Nelson]

why not practice trail braking under CONTROLLED circumstances for the OH :gob: $#!T moment?

Exactly.. but learn & practice the skills in a controlled environment.. with the people who are highly trained & practiced in teaching the correct techniques & skills.. not just any Tom Dick & Harry on the internet, who has an opinion.. & thinks he's right.. :doh:

[Metastable]

:D That's what I'm saying.... if he has the ability to get professional help, awesome. All I'm saying is that it is a valuable skill..... and it shouldn't be viewed as taboo. When I first started riding nothing of that nature was available.

[george formby]

Braking in a corner, yeap I do it, have done for many years,
But I do agree that unless you know how your bike handles when you do this,
Unless you have had practice doing it,
Unless you understand the dynamics ,
Slow down till you do,
I agree whith the majority of what has been posted here about not braking in a corner or you riask a high side.
but have to put into the mix of following another bike into a corner and find you are closing that gap faster than you would like,
Not because you are going too fast for the corner, but the other rider, who you have been following at a reasonable pace, is one who although his bike can handle the speed , slows down way more than is needed.
So brakes on or run into him... no amount of leaning or countersterring will save you.
Im sure this will expand this discussion.
SO what do you guys recomend to do?
when following another bike into a corner at a sensibile pace,
and find he/she has dropped of way more speed than is needed to safley get around the corner.
And allowing for the recomendation of, "dont brake in a corner"
Interesting thoughts???

Get more compatable riding buddie's... Sorry, but you have just stated one of the reasons why group rides make me uncomfortable. A bunch of riders with different bikes, opinions & skill levels always seems to create moments where another rider has to be avoided. The only solution is to ride in lots of space which can be impossible in a group.
Braking & steering mid corner is about feedback & limits, grip, balance, momentum & reaction.
I've had to lock the rear wheel of my bike & let it slide coming into a corner to fast (doh!) so that I would not cross the centre line into oncoming traffic. The bike set up perfectly to square off the corner & get round safely if scarily. I was hard on both brakes throughout until I was facing in the right direction & could get back on the gas & steer. Sounds legendary but I did nothing consciously other than look where I wanted to go, I don't think I could do it if I tried deliberately.
Thats what I mean by practice, thousands of hours (probably) riding on the road & on trails with an attitude to learn coming together in a moment of inattention & saving my skin.
I did stop to change my undies & have a ciggie afterwards. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do when the bike is leant over & something gets in the way.

[sinned]

Get more compatable riding buddie's... Sorry, but you have just stated one of the reasons why group rides make me uncomfortable. A bunch of riders with different bikes, opinions & skill levels always seems to create moments where another rider has to be avoided. The only solution is to ride in lots of space which can be impossible in a group.


+1 and to have compatible riding buddies you need first to know of their capability and maturity to ride within their skill level. A few experiences on KB rides have left me with the view that KB is a great place to meet up online but not as a group on the road. My group rides are with Ulysses or a few riders I know well and with lots of space.

[CHOPPA]

The only way I learn how to do stuff is to do stuff.... Better to try things then get caught out. Your question seemed to be asking if your going to fast for the corner should i still try and brake and turn, well the answer is YES either that or take the other peoples advice and make the decision to take the corner slower when your in the trees.....

Try applying your brakes around corners at normal speeds and see how your bike reacts, go to a track day and possibly a rider training day.

We all think we are experts on here so its hard to know who actually knows what there talking about, also some people that do may suggest techniques that dont suit your riding style.

[Jantar]

stay off the front brake, it will stand the bike up....
That depends on the bike and the steering geometry. On the old Kwaka tripples you just had to think about the front brake mid corner and it would stand right up, but my RE5 of the same year could have brakes applied to the point of locking up the front tyre and there was no hint of standing up. Modern bikes are much more forgiving than those older machines, but its still counter steer first and foremost, and only brake mid corner in very exceptional circumstances.

[Goblin]

The only way I learn how to do stuff is to do stuff....


snip!


We all think we are experts on here so its hard to know who actually knows what there talking about, also some people that do may suggest techniques that dont suit your riding style.Well after watching you braking well hard into turn2 yesterday, I reckon you got a pretty good grasp of it. Thats one wild style! :headbang: :ride:

[CHOPPA]

Well after watching you braking well hard into turn2 yesterday, I reckon you got a pretty good grasp of it. Thats one wild style! :headbang: :ride:

It gotta bit outa shape a few times into there! Where you on the marshal point??

[Goblin]

It gotta bit outa shape a few times into there! Where you on the marshal point??Yeah, Im usually there or turn 6. You and Jason on his motard were freakin amazing! Love watching you guys get so outa shape yet so in control. Poetry in motion!

[lanci]

When I was learning to ride I'd practice braking in corners (at slow speeds) to see the effect of braking in a corner on the bike. I found that applying the front brake stood the bike up and would therefore push me wide either into the curb (right hander) or into the other lane (left hander). The rear brake on the other hand would tighten my line and pull the bike down into more lean. Being a newbie at the time I'd get to a corner with too much speed more frequently than I'd have liked and to try and get me around the corner in 1 piece I would apply a little rear brake. It seemed to work as I got around the corners... I do think that I was lucky that my Hornet's rear brake was so shit that I could never lock it despite the pressure applied as there were times I think I jumped on it a bit too hard. That said, it's generally rider ability that won't get you through a corner as most newer bikes have far more cornering capablities than that of the rider (hell, I've done some track days and still can't get me knee down..... not too important I know but it does have a bit of a pub chat BS factor:shutup:)

[BMWST?]

dont know about "treadwalking" but the fact is that just the act of turning does slow you down....(and has the effect of lowering the gearing cos the diameter of the wheel leaned over is smaller than upright)

[MarkH]

Braking during a turn? Sure, done it plenty of times - more so when I was re-learning riding after a 20 year absence, MUCH less so now because I don't get it wrong entering the corner very often any more. The big problem is that cornering uses up some of your available traction so you just can't brake hard like when you are riding in a straight line, brake too hard and you will crash!

If you have to brake then don't brake too hard, if you can learn to get your entry speed more appropriate to the corner then you will be MUCH safer! If you do it right you should be able to go through the corner with constant throttle and then open the throttle during the exit as you begin to straighten up, the increase in throttle will help the bike to straighten and you will smoothly exit the corner and accelerate back to your straight line cruising speed. Learning to corner well is an important skill, give learning this skill a high priority!

[The Pastor]

when in doubt, power out.

[beyond]

Braking into and through corners is common and no problem "IF" you take into account the following:
1. You're going in to hot like in your case.
2. There is an obstacle or stock or any other impediment to normal progress.
3. You are riding hard, on the track or quicker than normal on the road.

As has been pointed out... it is called trail braking, using either the front or rear brake or both.

Ideal environment:
1. You brake well before the corner so your entry speed is correct.
2. There are no obstacles to require you to brake.
3. You aren't riding so hard that you need to brake.

The ideal is not where most people ride when out and about.

Considerations to take into account:
1. Suspension is sorted for your weight.
2. Tyre pressures are correct
3. Throttle play is correct to ensure smooth throttle control.
4. Engine is tuned so there is no popping, missing or surging.
5. You know how to counter steer: essential when corner braking. (Search for "countersteering").
6. You know how your bike handles and have a good feel for your brakes.
7.The heavier the bike the more you can brake into a corner.
8. The lighter the bike... the higher the chance of the front or rear sliding out depending on what brake you use.
9. You need lots of experience which will take time to get to the techniques below.

Technique.
1. Braking hard with the rear and front brakes will cause the rear to lose traction as the weight comes off the rear wheel which will cause the rear to slide out sideways when braking into a corner and this will cause a lowside. At this point if you snap the throttle off, the rear may regrip but grip so hard it will cause you to highside which if you have a choice is way more painful than a lowside if you don't hit anything solid.
2. Front wheel braking is the best option. You get your weight up near the tank to weight the front wheel more and gradually apply the brakes. The bike will want to stand up so you push the inside bar more to compensate and prevent the bike standing up. This is a learnt technique that you will develop 'feel' for ove time.
3. You trade off braking for grip or grip for braking in every case. Your movements need to be smooth so as not to upset the bikes geometry. The following assumes you are braking at maximum throughout the manouevere bu the percentages are the same in every case. If you go into a corner under brakes you may be starting to enter before turning at 100% braking, as you enter the corner, you must start to release braking pressure assuming you are right on the edge. Your lean angle increases slightly so ypou go to 90% braking for 10% grip. As you go deeper into the corner you get down to 80% braking/20% grip till you need maximum grip near the apex where you will now be down to no brakes and 100% grip. Violate these ratios and you will be be going off road before you know it.

Once you have apexed, you start standing the bike up and as you pass the apex you now use throttle to get 10% throttle for 90% grip and the process is reverses with throttle instead of brake. As you are nearly upright, you will be 90% throttle with 10% grip.
4. You can lean off the bike more as well to increase cornering speed without leaning further but you will be suprised how far you can lean a bike before things start to move under you.

You need to practice in safe areas, how hard you can brake in a straight line, what braking lightly through a corner will do to the way your bike handles and how to counter steer when lightly braking under corners.

Warning: shiny tar, diesel, wet roads, cow shit, gravel, dust or any other dodgy matter on the road will totally screw these ratios.

Controlled and smooth use of these techniques will get you out of the shit in almost every case except when you are being so stupid that going in way to hot for the conditions means you are totally screwed no matter how good you may be.

IF you tyres start to break free, immediately release the brake or brakes and apply more gradually once the tyres have regripped. This requires lightening reflexes as once tyres break free, they go very fast.

[MarkH]

Warning: shiny tar, diesel, wet roads, cow shit, gravel, dust or any other dodgy matter on the road will totally screw these ratios.

I would have thought that the ratios still apply regardless of the total grip, but 90% of a smaller amount of grip is going to be a smaller amount. If you call the total amount of grip on an ideal road 100 and the total amount of grip on a wet road 80 then 90% braking = 90 on a good surface or 72 on a wet road. However you look at it, on a poor surface you will have less braking available and less cornering grip - failing to take that into consideration will generally leave you sliding on your arse.

[beyond]

Correct, but normally when cornering and hitting this crap, you don't have braking or grip :) Usually it's both legs flailing the air and hanging on for dear life :)

[Katman]

I think it's important to remember that when an inexperienced rider asks a question such as the one in the original post that people avoid breaking into a recitation of a thesis on the theory of motion and it's relationship to the forces of gravity.

If things turn ugly mid-corner for a new rider they won't have a shit show of instantly recalling to mind a lot of what is written here and it's likely to all be over before they even have a chance to remember whether the answer was yes or no.

All too often in threads like this it seems that some are more intent on displaying their wealth of knowledge rather than answering the question in a manner that is most useful to the person asking the question.

Therefore, the most important advice to the OP is, while yes you can brake mid-corner it's best to slow down your corner speed while you go about gradually increasing your experience.

[Maha]

'NEVER apply breaks in a corner! You will crash if you do'

Not true, I have successfully applied breaks mid corner on a few occassions.
Dont be affraid to use your brakes at anytime.
Its how they are use that will determine the outcome.
And it all happens quicker than you can process the thought.

If I find myself in that situation, the bike is stood up, gradual but firm front brake and a tad on the rear brake...slows me down real quick.
Some will poo poo the idea of the rear brake, but once you have mastered the technique of using both front and rear, you can then use it to great effect.

[FROSTY]

I think it's important to remember that when an inexperienced rider asks a question such as the one in the original post that people avoid breaking into a recitation of a thesis on the theory of motion and it's relationship to the forces of gravity.

If things turn ugly mid-corner for a new rider they won't have a shit show of instantly recalling to mind a lot of what is written here and it's likely to all be over before they even have a chance to remember whether the answer was yes or no.

All to often in threads like this it seems that some are more intent on displaying their wealth of knowledge rather than answering the question in a manner that is most useful to the person asking the question.

Therefore, the most important advice to the OP is, while yes you can brake mid-corner it's best to slow down your corner speed while you go about gradually increasing your experience.
It had to happen eventually I suppose
I agree with Katman here.
Guys lets KISS it for the poor bloke.

In my limited experience theres a whole bunch of things can be done mid corner if in the OP's situation
.
But in simple terms. 1) lean more 2)and/or stand the bike up and brake then recommit to the corner are two I'd concider using in the Op's situation.

[sugilite]

I 100% agree :yes:


I think it's important to remember that when an inexperienced rider asks a question such as the one in the original post that people avoid breaking into a recitation of a thesis on the theory of motion and it's relationship to the forces of gravity.

If things turn ugly mid-corner for a new rider they won't have a shit show of instantly recalling to mind a lot of what is written here and it's likely to all be over before they even have a chance to remember whether the answer was yes or no.

All to often in threads like this it seems that some are more intent on displaying their wealth of knowledge rather than answering the question in a manner that is most useful to the person asking the question.

Therefore, the most important advice to the OP is, while yes you can brake mid-corner it's best to slow down your corner speed while you go about gradually increasing your experience.

[beyond]

I agree too. My dissertation was merely to help this guy know you can and what to expect once you begin to learn this process which is what he will want to do in time.

[XP@]

This is good advice, what the duck says about the vanishing point is good but I would add don't just look at the place where both sides of the road meet, use it for all the information it has to give:

If it is getting closer to you you should be slowing down or maintaining speed.
If it is staying in the same place you should be maintaining speed or going slower.
If they do not meet then the road dips - slow down.
if it is moving away from you then you should be going faster.


If you still need to use your anchors mid-corner then you must remember it will eat up some, if not all, of your suspention travel. Given that you are already cranked over and a bit nervous I suspect you are not aware of how much or how little clearance you have left. Will you use it all up? Keeping smooth on the gas and observing the vanishing point is probably still your best option.

Final point If you slow in the corner then who / what is behind you? If the rider behind is riding correctly then they will catch you up real fast and you will be putting them and yourself in danger.


Lots of good advice here for you. All of it, pretty much the right stuff to do.

Firstly plan your corners better, if you "find" yourself in a corner going to fast you probably weren't thinking about the corner before you got there.
Just apply good corner technique and go for it (always the best option unless you already have things grinding on the ground)
Leave the front brake alone, it does produce the wrong result compared to what you need and also if you lock it you'll definitely NOT get the result you wanted.
Use the back brake gently, it will wash off speed quite quickly and help tighten the corner for you.

Learn about that Vanishing point.... it might just save you all this drama in the future... not to mention, countersteering, corner sets etc etc.

Good to see you wanting to know how to do it better and also good to see you did the right thing and made it round.... Good stuff!!!