View Full Version : 5 S? A lean machine?
What is your experience of it?
Ocean1
6th July 2010, 19:12
A passing fad, the boss's latest buzzword.
It's common sense really, what's often not common is funding / resources for implimentation...
Mully
6th July 2010, 20:15
Like six-sigma.
In as much as anyone who uses it deserves a swift kick in the nuts and a disdainful look.
It is really just common sense....
If ya dont use it, biff it...
Keep your workspace clean...
everything has a place...
simple common sense stuff really
Every season has its fads, think back to the likes of "one minute manager", just in time manegment etc....
There is always something you can take from them and implement into your situation, and any improvement helps, even if its just placement of a broom...
nallac
6th July 2010, 20:25
total waste of time and funds at my workplace..more Bullshit from above.
more Bullshit from above.
Ah, the perfect answer, and one I would love to explore. Why?
nallac
6th July 2010, 20:35
Ah, the perfect answer, and one I would love to explore. Why?
Why.....from my experience its a way for some/all managers to try and justify their jobs...
most normal people keep there work place tidy and organised around how they need it.
Its a fucking factory not a repco..(as was wanted by above)...yeah waste money why don't ya.
Mully
6th July 2010, 21:07
Great answer, nallac.
Short answer IMO, it's a reasonable idea, ruined by management's overzealous desire to be seen doing something.
scumdog
6th July 2010, 21:14
What is your experience of it?
Is it like 'ticks the box', 'classic' and all those other naff trendy expressions??
Cos' I've never heard of 5 S
Mully
6th July 2010, 21:18
Is it like 'ticks the box', 'classic' and all those other naff trendy expressions??
Cos' I've never heard of 5 S
Run this us the flagpole....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5S_%28methodology%29
scumdog
6th July 2010, 21:20
Run this us the flagpole....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5S_%28methodology%29
Yep, right up there with 'tick the boxes'....
Mully
6th July 2010, 21:30
Yep, right up there with 'tick the boxes'....
Maybe we should have a Brown Bag meeting, to get buy-in from all stakeholders from the ground floor?
MadDuck
6th July 2010, 21:32
This one hasnt hit us yet....but it wont be long before some snotty nosed graduate at Head Office will get hold of it. Oh JOY!!!!
I really cannot understand the mentality being employed in this thread....surely if something is going to improve your workplace then it has to be for the good of the company and through that your own future...
We as a country are falling behind the line because of our kiwi attitude that basically states if it aint broken dont fix it....well history has shown us that countries can go from third world to powerhouses just by a shift of attitudes, example in point: Japan post WW2...The whole country has embraced the "Kaizen" scheme which is basically small inmprovements all the time, and look what that created...A country that is now one of the biggest players in technology and automotive production!
Just as they can go ahead in a few generations we are falling behind....and what is the cause of that, ATTITUDE! The Kiwi attitude sucks...we dont take too kindly to improvement through change...That has to change!
MIXONE
6th July 2010, 21:52
Fuck I hope my boss doesn't see this thread!
MadDuck
6th July 2010, 21:59
I really cannot understand the mentality being employed in this thread....surely if something is going to improve your workplace then it has to be for the good of the company and through that your own future...
I dont think the Kiwi attitude sucks. Just like I dont think that when some nob comes up with a hair brained idea we accept it. Its called thinking for ones self.
Oh and I WILL NOT sing the company song with my hand on my heart....EVER
schrodingers cat
6th July 2010, 22:12
I don't have any problems with 5S per se. I just don't think it is the be all, end all. Like most of these things it is worthwhile to study, understand and adopt what is applicable to you and your organisation. A slavish adherance to to management 'religious fads' isn't useful. Neither is a bloody minded 'We've always done it this way' mentality. I realise if it ain't broke don't fix it but if you aren't actually moving forward, you're going backwards.
Western Manufacturing has had a love affair with (essentially) Toyota manufacturing methodolgy. Interestingly, their corporate culture failed spectacularly in F1.
A bit of crystal ball gazing - the next big thing is going to be trying to adopt Indian 'good enough, fit for purpose' idealoogy
I don't have any problems with 5S per se. I just don't think it is the be all, end all. Like most of these things it is worthwhile to study, understand and adopt what is applicable to you and your organisation. A slavish adherance to to management 'religious fads' isn't useful. Neither is a bloody minded 'We've always done it this way' mentality. I realise if it ain't broke don't fix it but if you aren't actually moving forward, you're going backwards.
Western Manufacturing has had a love affair with (essentially) Toyota manufacturing methodolgy. Interestingly, their corporate culture failed spectacularly in F1.
A bit of crystal ball gazing - the next big thing is going to be trying to adopt Indian 'good enough, fit for purpose' idealoogy
No one system is going to work in its entrity with everyone...there is no magic cure...The thing is with these ideas is to take out of them what works for you and discard what does not...a bit of playing about so to speak until you get a system that works in your settings.
All I am suggesting is we need to be open to ideas and change to develop a better work ethic and a better economy...every little bit helps
mashman
6th July 2010, 23:13
No one system is going to work in its entrity with everyone...there is no magic cure...The thing is with these ideas is to take out of them what works for you and discard what does not...a bit of playing about so to speak until you get a system that works in your settings.
All I am suggesting is we need to be open to ideas and change to develop a better work ethic and a better economy...every little bit helps
doesn't that mean that we all have to sing from the same hymn sheet... I have difficulty singing.
Scouse
6th July 2010, 23:48
Shit we delt with that old chestnut when I was a NZ Dairy Foods back in 1998 then when I was at Gilmours it was brought in in 2006 they even got the same yarpie bloke that run the sessions at Dairy Foods to run it at Gilmours As he recorgnised me from NZDF he tried to rope me in to champion the shite at Gilmours with no luck.
onearmedbandit
6th July 2010, 23:58
They use it at my g/f's company, an enviromental testing lab, with great success. It has only been implemented in the last 12mths and they have seen benefits already (ie reduced wastage of product, better stock control resulting in less capital tied up, better position to serve customers in a time-critical industry.
Katman
7th July 2010, 12:31
The Kiwiw attitude sucks...we dont take too kindly to improvement through change...
Tell me about it.
:whistle:
scumdog
7th July 2010, 16:30
Maybe we should have a Brown Bag meeting, to get buy-in from all stakeholders from the ground floor?
Just about coughed me Moro bar all over the monitor when I read that - a real dose of shiney-bum clap-trap!! Well done!
schrodingers cat
7th July 2010, 17:19
I've seen all of this from all corners having been an employee, an employer and (to my shame) an educator.
One of the things I would like to say about attitudes is that holding the cheque book and having the buck stop with YOU changes your perspective mightily.
I realise that not everybody is geared to own a business and see the other side of the coin but digging ones toes in and nurturing a them and us mentality doesn't help things.
So yes, filter the 'shiny bum clap trap' jargon and take heart from the fact that they even want to 'get the guys together and explain what we're trying to achieve and get their opinions'
KiwiRat
7th July 2010, 17:31
Try this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way
It makes 5S look like a walk in the park. This is has recently been implemented at my workplace, leaving me barely enough time to do the job I was employed to do.
scumdog
7th July 2010, 17:46
I've seen all of this from all corners having been an employee, an employer and (to my shame) an educator.
One of the things I would like to say about attitudes is that holding the cheque book and having the buck stop with YOU changes your perspective mightily.
I realise that not everybody is geared to own a business and see the other side of the coin but digging ones toes in and nurturing a them and us mentality doesn't help things.
So yes, filter the 'shiny bum clap trap' jargon and take heart from the fact that they even want to 'get the guys together and explain what we're trying to achieve and get their opinions'
I know where you're coming from - it's not the message, it's how it's told ( the buzz-words).
schrodingers cat
7th July 2010, 17:58
I know where you're coming from - it's not the message, it's how it's told ( the buzz-words).
I know. It's the language of exclusion. We all do it in one form or another to make OUR peer group seem better/more exclusive
It another form of jargon and should be rewarded with a slap on the ear with a fillet of cold cod
Mully
7th July 2010, 18:21
I actually agree with theories like Constant Imporvement and whatnot. I try to do this myself.
Where I have issues is where an underworked "manager" (and I use that term loosely) comes across these things and rams them down your throat. Or has no idea how your job is done, but insists on new KPIs or reporting methods which are pointless.
nothingflash
7th July 2010, 18:38
Fuck I hope my boss doesn't see this thread!
I'll say...
Keep them coming guys, I have seen it work, seen it not work and cost shed loads of money in the process of not working.
What about workplace culture?
Fill your boots...
MIXONE
7th July 2010, 19:17
I'll say...
Fuck it...
marty
7th July 2010, 19:23
Western Manufacturing has had a love affair with (essentially) Toyota manufacturing methodolgy. Interestingly, their corporate culture failed spectacularly in F1.
Have a look at their current culture - rushed, clean at expense of safe, covering things up to save face....
mashman
8th July 2010, 09:01
Be thankful that you're not in Italy (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/odd/7533934/corporate-firewalk-ends-with-burnt-feet-in-italy/) lol
neels
8th July 2010, 17:30
We're getting a similar, although less buzzwordish message at work about tidiness. We are told to chuck stuff away if it's broken or it's bits left over and not leave it lurking in that box under the desk just in case it comes in handy one day.
Interestingly, several times that one day has come along but we no longer have a couple of bits that we need or a dead one to pull apart to burgle parts off or get part numbers to repair another one, so we end up buying stuff in instead.
More efficient and cost effective apparently.
schrodingers cat
8th July 2010, 18:09
We're getting a similar, although less buzzwordish message at work about tidiness. We are told to chuck stuff away if it's broken or it's bits left over and not leave it lurking in that box under the desk just in case it comes in handy one day.
Interestingly, several times that one day has come along but we no longer have a couple of bits that we need or a dead one to pull apart to burgle parts off or get part numbers to repair another one, so we end up buying stuff in instead.
More efficient and cost effective apparently.
You do know that it is one of the cornerstones of the universe - the day you throw away the mouldering 6 year old pile of shit in the corner is the week you'll need some of it...
Seriously though, this is where a bit of common sense comes into play. Used brake pads/spark plugs/stripped bolts/worn bushes/empty boxes/broken pallets, lets face it, they're rubbish and should be chucked.
I 'work to my rubbish bin'. As I'm doing a job I assess what is shit and throw it away. If worth keeping it gets labled and placed in a logical storage place. Occasionally I biff something I should have kept but don't lose any sleep over it.
Simple procedures can make a massive difference. When I had my workshop I ensured the guys put stuff back as soon as they had finished using it. 20 seconds putting something back was cheaper than 5 guys walking in circles for 4 minutes saying 'where the fuck is the ....?'
AD345
8th July 2010, 18:15
5S
It is the essential first step to building a culture of continuous improvement
It is not an end in itself nor is it a quick fix for productivity for profit improvement or operational effectiveness
Done right it is an invaluable tool for instilling cultural change, engaging staff and beginning a very worthwiile journey
Done wrong it is a complete waste of time and money and can be very DIS engagng as promises made are not sustained
Mom - PM me if you want to go somewhere with this. This (CI, TQM, TCO, 6 Siigma and more jargon than you can shake a stock at) is what I do and I do OK with it.
neels
8th July 2010, 18:19
Used brake pads/spark plugs/stripped bolts/worn bushes/empty boxes/broken pallets, lets face it, they're rubbish and should be chucked
20 seconds putting something back was cheaper than 5 guys walking in circles for 4 minutes saying 'where the fuck is the ....?'
I have to admit that I quite often keep one shagged part, in case I need to take it into the idiots at repco when I need one to put it on the counter and show them that the one their computer says is the right one is not the right one.
But in general I agree, and I should do it more often, it would save me a lot of time sorting out my garage.
My dad even throws stuff away now, which is a major achievement. But after sorting out his workshop and finding he had 50 odd cortina tie rod ends and out of those about 12 good ones (enough to keep his car on the road for another century) he decided it probably wouldn't hurt to chuck some things away.
schrodingers cat
8th July 2010, 18:30
http://www.despair.com/viewall.html
mashman
8th July 2010, 18:37
What about workplace culture?
lol, usually a myriad of policies and procedures brought in by new management... policies and procedures that don't actually fit the "culture" of the workplace... but they know best :) they're experienced managers :rofl:...
I would venture that the main departmental performance indicator (snigger) would be staff turnover... something that isn't taken serious enough (oh and happy bday :))
ynot slow
10th July 2010, 08:32
When I worked for a nationwide company the company had national dept guys,for various depts,under our manager who was national manager soft furnishings we had another few,one decided that starting at my desk this was how we are setting them out.The idea was she or any other person(14 of us)could be dropped from Welly to Invers and step into functionality immediately.The price folders in compartment 2,invoice books 3,quotes in file 4 etc.Was a good idea,till I suggested that I was left handed and desk set up that way,although ambidextrous at times,and my term was maternity replacement,seems she hadn't thought of that,just wanted safe uncluttered work areas,never mind you could be working on quote 1 and Mrs Smith wants to query her job,MrJones rings and gives go ahead etc,might take 10 mins to get it done but her idea was clear each file straight away.Me I was happy to have them all at my reach,then wouldn't forget the Jones file because it ws at hand.And after being in the field for 20 yrs within 3 companies thought I had it pretty streamlined,but the manager in her wisdom(6mths)deemed any ideas but her own were WRONG,until her ideas were Wroong,then it was someone elses idea.
Shit we delt with that old chestnut when I was a NZ Dairy Foods back in 1998 then when I was at Gilmours it was brought in in 2006 they even got the same yarpie bloke that run the sessions at Dairy Foods to run it at Gilmours As he recorgnised me from NZDF he tried to rope me in to champion the shite at Gilmours with no luck.
Well it's back. Now it is been rebranded as "Operation Excellence" modelled from Toyota. It's a nice idea but can't see it working cos the negativity of those that aren't the champions.
The 5s part is being done by people who don't even do the job. Other people laying out your work area and tasks.
Sort of time and motion stuff.
Time will tell.
Subike
10th July 2010, 08:58
Does this practice acually have a label?
Amazing...
I'm not taking the piss out of it, but
in my experiance of having a workshop where these were not instituted meant that,
the cost of replacement tools due to being lost was high,
lotsof small injuries which could have been avoided .
Unnessesary cleaning presonel had to be employed,
The cost of the "she will be right" discipline meant production time lost
The difference betweem making a profit and just wasting time trying to make a profit is S5
A clean workshop, with just the right tools inmediatly at hand with continuous spick and span cleaning , constant reminders of saftey and employee discipline meant that profit was made,
osh was happy the workers got paid top rates, and it was a fun place to work.
Not a fad, but 5 S should be in every workplace as a mater of course it you want to operate a profitable business.
Assembly line type workshops are where this profits the most.
Mully
10th July 2010, 11:25
It's a nice idea but can't see it working cos the negativity of those that aren't the champions.
Oh yeah, Champions (capital is important). We call them Green Belts and Black Belts (depending on their level) in our madhouse.
Not a fad, but 5 S should be in every workplace as a mater of course it you want to operate a profitable business.
Agreed, but the trouble is, it's not the workers who are driving it (and who should be as a matter of course) - it's the "Champions" (who are usually "managers" with nothing to do) who insist upon it.
I had a "manager" who decided that he wanted everyone's desk cleaned (not just tidied) before they went home each night. He actually seriously suggested that we could all effectively stop working at 1630h every day so we could have our desks clean by 1700h. I had to go over his head and make the owner over-rule him because he failed to see how stupid that is.
I've worked in freight forwarding for over 10 years - as a rule of thumb, anyone with a completely tidy desk isn't pulling their weight (of course there are exceptions). I have trays where files go (to be done, pending XYZ, etc), but at any given time, I might have 20-30 files on the go.
5S is like a lot of things; great ideas if the plebs do it - not so good when it's rammed down their throats.
mashman
10th July 2010, 12:30
Efficiency experts teaching old dogs new tricks... it'll never work lol...
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