Free Schepelle Corby Petion

[Skyryder]

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/corby

Skyryder

[Rainbow Wizard]

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/corby

Skyryder
Weight of evidence: guilty
Her past is an indication that she has the character to be guilty, that cannot be changed and probably dissuaded any possible doubt in the judiciary's mind. We'd be better putting our names to having that corrupt Islamic cleric of Bali bombing conspiracy fame jailed for a term that's more appropriate to his crime. He got 2 years, Corby got 20; there's the travesty. Freed she should not be!

[Hitcher]

Sounds like a Weetbix offer: "Free Schapelle Corby with every box purchased in May!"

Seriously though, her defence sucked.

[GSVR]

90% of ozzys think shes innocent and I'd say 90% of Bali folk would say shes guilty for sure.

I say they do the honourable thing and go to war. I'm sure the Australian army can whip them and if not call in the americans to sort it out. :ar15:

[Timber020]

We only give a shit because shes damn sexy. Now if she was a abo guy I bet it wouldnt have made it into the papers at all. Funny how we always want to save the hot chicks and cute furry animals.

[Eurodave]

We only give a shit because shes damn sexy. Now if she was a abo guy I bet it wouldnt have made it into the papers at all. Funny how we always want to save the hot chicks and cute furry animals.


TOUCHE'!!!! WOT HE SAID :niceone:

[justsomeguy]

We only give a shit because shes damn sexy. Now if she was a abo guy I bet it wouldnt have made it into the papers at all. Funny how we always want to save the hot chicks and cute furry animals.

Are you allowed to say that aloud?? I thought management said leave this matter to the marketing people.

[Sutage]

We only give a shit because shes damn sexy. Now if she was a abo guy I bet it wouldnt have made it into the papers at all. Funny how we always want to save the hot chicks and cute furry animals.

Well if your ever put into a similar position i hope you rot in some fucking stinking jail cell, without anyone knowing your there or give a toss about you.

[justsomeguy]

Well if your ever put into a similar position i hope you rot in some fucking stinking jail cell, without anyone knowing your there or give a toss about you.

Hmm.. good point Sutage.

Honestly though it's nice to know I have your support for when I get mistakenly caught with a few kilos of drugs stashed in my luggage when I'm travelling overseas.:yes:

[Eurodave]

Still, signing the petition is unlikely to do anything more than ease our collective consiences[sp?]
Those bloody Noggies are hard liners when it comes to drugs & good on them!!!
Its a shame other countries arn't as hard on drug smugglers!!

[Timber020]

Well if your ever put into a similar position i hope you rot in some fucking stinking jail cell, without anyone knowing your there or give a toss about you.

Mate, I probably will because Im not sexy enough for the media to give a crap about. The fact is that there is only this much interest because shes so damn pretty. Remember the Aussie vietnamese guy that got the death sentance last year? No? Oh thats right, he didnt have a pretty set of tits for you and the rest of us to be interested in.
Its terrible whats happening to her, but it happens to people all over the world, shes just lucky enough to have been born pretty.
Read some books on psychology, this phenomonon is well documented.

[Skyryder]

Still, signing the petition is unlikely to do anything more than ease our collective consiences[sp?]
Those bloody Noggies are hard liners when it comes to drugs & good on them!!!
Its a shame other countries arn't as hard on drug smugglers!!

There's nothing wrong with a hard line on drugs but when the victim has to proove their innocence, that's the bit I have a problem with.

I just wonder what reaction we all would have if it was a kiwi instead of an Aussie. Or perhaps a kiwi sporstman.

Skyryder

[Eurodave]

I just wonder what reaction we all would have if it was a kiwi instead of an Aussie. Or perhaps a kiwi sporstman. [/QUOTE]


As sportsmen & other high profile people seem to be treated as way, way more important than us mere mortals I would say all sorts of pressure from our "government" would be bought to bear in a concerted attempt to bid for their freedom
"WE ARE ALL BORN EQUAL, ITS JUST THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"!!

[James Deuce]

Well if your ever put into a similar position i hope you rot in some fucking stinking jail cell, without anyone knowing your there or give a toss about you.

They won't for me - I'm bald, fat, white, and middle aged. The only people that would give a crap would be my immediate family. I guarantee it.

[Suney]

she better put out if we manage to successfully free her

[Biff]

I'd donate a few $$'s for her to hire a real defence lawyer.

[StoneChucker]

It's a tricky subject to debate. How do we know for sure that she is innocent? What I mean is:

The customs agents' testimony was that when he asked her to open the bodyboard bag she immediately said no and looked very uncomfortable. If this testimony is infact true, then you must ask yourself if she really is innocent?

BUT, and a big but, that in my opinion is probably not true. And if it were, maybe she had noticed the drugs before then (after they were planted) and just didn't know what to do?
I just don't know. I do hope she is guilty, as the alternative is unbearable to think about. 20 years in a shithole jail, in a shithole country while being innocent! A good thing she's on suicide watch, as I'd be contemplating that! Even if her appeal is successful, it can take up to 11 months (I think, 5 for the court which convicted her and 6 months for the highest court's decision). That a long time in jail!

What also worries me is that the presiding judge, on all of his 500 narcotics cases, has NEVER found anyone innocent! Those figures smell terribly of corruption. Looks pretty good sending all those terrible drug dealers to jail, which is why he can "be happy and sleep well at night". Her defence? What defence! The defence would not confirm whether they had ever even won a case, and if so how many! I heard the Australian government have offered two QC's, pro bono (one with specific experience in Indonesian law). I hope they accept this offer, and I'm wondering why it wasn't extended in the first place? (if it was, why wasn't it accepted?). Shit thing is, if the appeal is lost, she can get the death penalty! They were interviewing who I assumed to be a homeless guy - turned out to be the prosecutor!

I ask you this, why does a drug carrier get 20 years, and a "Bali Bomber" get 2 years? Oh, and as for someone's suggestion of going to war with them. Obviously it was in jest, but you'd be suprised at their military capabilities. Alot of these third world countries are third world because they spend all their money on military/defense.

Watching her pain on TV, I find it very hard to make jokes, and comment on her looks.

[justsomeguy]

Oh, and as for someone's suggestion of going to war with them. Obviously it was in jest, but you'd be suprised at their military capabilities. Alot of these third world countries are third world because they spend all their money on military/defense.


Nah get the americans in - as soon as they "save" Iraq and "capture" Osama bin laden - they will sort them out.

Not saying get the americans in - saying American $$$$ and they still can't capture one guy or bring peace to a country or win their war against countries way poorer than Indonesia. So forget anyone attacking anybody - even as a joke.


Watching her pain on TV, I find it very hard to make jokes, and comment on her looks.

She may be guiltier than the devil or as innocent as Mother Teresa - her situation is really scary none the less... and being "pretty" may not be too good a thing in those situations - womens rights aren't as developed as they could be......:no:

[What?]

... the presiding judge, on all of his 500 narcotics cases, has NEVER found anyone innocent! Those figures smell terribly of corruption...
Or it just smells of personal pride. To the judge, it is a matter of huge pride that he has convicted everyone who has come before him. If he were to aquit an accused drug traffficker, he would consider himself a failure.
In many places around the world, you are guilty if accused - to be aquitted, the accused has to provide the evidence. This is more the case in countries dominated by certain religions :raghead:
So, now can someone explain what the point of a petition is? Do you really think the Indonesians give a damn?

[justsomeguy]

So, now can someone explain what the point of a petition is? Do you really think the Indonesians give a damn?

No, not really but people like fighting for something...

[marty]

No, not really but people like fighting for something...

it's called operating in your sphere of concern. some people should spend more time operating in their sphere of influence - it's much more satisfying.

[Fart]

Her advisers handled the entire case badly.

The only way to free her was to keep the case out of the media limelight and pay a substantial amount of funds into the Judge's Swiss bank account. Thats how things are handled over there. The only law in Indonesia is the law of money.

[Hitcher]

Rule 1: Never go to war against wog nations. Particularly wog nations that are reasonably affluent AND who have better kit than you do.

[vifferman]

The fact is that there is only this much interest because shes so damn pretty.
I find her rather unappealatising.

[James Deuce]

Rule 1: Never go to war against wog nations. Particularly wog nations that are reasonably affluent AND who have better kit than you do.
I thought that was; "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."

[Paul in NZ]

I thought that was; "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."

I thought it was "Never get involved with Wogs that have better kilts than you"...

[Paul in NZ]

Up until now I have refrained from even thinking about this whole thing because I don’t believe that there is enough genuine information available to people like me to come to any sensible conclusion.

However, my thinking thus far is thus..…

It is very interesting (if not predictable) that the ‘media’ have seized this story and presented it as they have. This whole thing has taken on (in my eyes anyway) the flavor of a not particularly good episode of Neighbours or Cath and Kim.. ie Designed to sell magazines and TV time and no one really gives a hoot if she rots in jail or not, just as long as they can spin out the story. Because of the way it has been handled, the average aussie is ‘outraged’ at her treatment and sure of her innocence yet there is a very good chance she may actually be guilty AND the punishments, should you be found guilty of such a crime in Indonesia are well publicized.

Lets face it anyone with access to a library or the internet could find out in 10 minutes what sort of place Indonesia is. (note I’m not saying it is necessarily a bad place but it is NOT Australia or NZ)

It is definitely an ‘interesting’ place with some very different values to ours. Corrupt? Well that depends upon how you view things, yes, there is an unofficial economy that works very differently to ours but to the average Indonesian, that’s pretty normal. Sadly it is so different to ours (NZ) that our company (among many) found it virtually impossible to do business there at one time.… That’s not always because of corruption though, it’s just they way it works there and you can’t go in blathering about how it’s not ‘right’ etc because you will just offend the locals who may just not see a problem with it… And it IS a sovereign nation (well it was when I checked)

Now… Bali is an interesting creature…. It’s Indonesia with a very thin (and gaudy) paint job and some dodgy bars and clubs designed to strip $$ from rich white people. It’s become this mythical place where vacuous westerners can go and leer up on a warm beach and get away with shit they could not / would not do at home all at a reasonable price… It’s been heavily promoted for years by travel companies, magazines and the ‘media’ as one of ‘the’ places to go (yet if you really had serious $$ you would avoid it like the plague – go figure). These same organizations know very well the risks you run if it goes pear shaped and all the other problems yet they gloss over all that in an obscene effort to get your holiday $$.

Of course having encouraged the huddled masses to go to a thinly disguised shit hole like Bali the same media are sure to be shocked and outraged at something like this.. Maybe a picture is emerging here…

So, knowing how it is run and what can happen… Why would you go there?

You go there because it is good value, relatively safe and for years the government of Indonesia has turned a blind eye to some of the goings on because they were getting what they needed from the place.. Now I think we are seeing a bit of a change. Aussie has been a bit more militant; Indonesia has been in conflict with Aussie and they have their own internal issues. Tolerance is wearing a bit thin on both sides perhaps?

Honestly. I’m NOT surprised that it was a shapely woman that is in this situation. Culturally they (the Muslim Indo’s) would probably find that highly offensive.

Anyway! What the hell would I know? It’s not really my cup of tea as a place to go to. Give me the local garden bar on a fine day anytime.

Paul N

Ps – Just be a bit careful when making cross cultural value judgments. Just remember that us euros have a bad habit of strutting about assuming our ways are the civilized ways. We expect Asian people to adopt our ‘ways’ when they come here (bloody asian drivers etc) it’s reasonable to accept their ways when we visit them…

[mangell6]

PaulInNZ - Whats wrong with our colonial values????

BTW Well said.

[Hitcher]

I thought that was; "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
Yours is more succinct. And probably more PC, given that I can't think of any non-wog nations in Asia...

[justsomeguy]

PaulInNZ - Whats wrong with our colonial values????



Well Mangell6 the following cliches spring to my attention:

- To each his own.

- One mans mead is another mans poison.

Very well said Paul.

[Biff]

OFFICIAL TEN MOST CORRUPT NATIONS LEAGUE TABLE


WORST TEN
Bangladesh (1.2)


Nigeria (1.6)


Paraguay (1.7)


Madagascar (1.7)


Angola (1.7)


Kenya (1.9)


Indonesia (1.9)


Azerbaijan (2.0)


Uganda (2.1)


Moldova (2.1)




-- Scores out of ten. 10 being very trustworthy.



This table is compiled annually and is based upon information supplied by the UN and other organisation such as the IMF, ITO and several human rights agencies. It included, but is not limited to: Commercial reports, the propensity of law enforcement agencies to accept bribes, blackmail of tourists and residents by said law enforcement agencies etc etc.

Snuff said?

[Ms Piggy]

Well if your ever put into a similar position i hope you rot in some fucking stinking jail cell, without anyone knowing your there or give a toss about you.
Others have before her - we were talking about it today at Uni. There was the NZ woman - Cohen. She had her son with her when she was jailed & her and son lived in the jails for years and evetually they came back NZ. http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=2544 Just found this.
Slightly different I guess b/c she was clearly guilty.

I'm undecided as to her guilt or innocence but sadly it's the legal system of that country - pretty inconsistent.

I've also heard that some Aussies are asking for all their donations back that they gave during the Tsunami. :no: It's a sad, sad world we live in.

[Biff]

And just out of interest - the most trustworthy:


TOP TEN
Finland (9.7)


Denmark (9.5)


New Zealand (9.5)


Iceland (9.4)


Singapore (9.3)


Sweden (9.3)


Canada (9.0)


Netherlands (9.0)


Luxembourg (9.0)


United Kingdom (8.7)

[Ixion]

OFFICIAL TEN MOST CORRUPT NATIONS LEAGUE TABLE


WORST TEN
..

Indonesia (1.9)

..

Snuff said?

These tables can be a bit misleading though. One man's corruption is another's social custom.

I've found in Indonesia that if you want anything done you have to accompany the request with a "present". Usually for me only 20 or 50 000 Rupiah (about $50). So not a big sum, though I guess at higher levels the presents are larger.

But I'm not sure that I'd call it "corruption". In general the present won't get an official to do something that's actually wrong or let you get away with actual illegality (at any more than parking ticket level)

It's more of a queue jumping/ instant fine sort of thing. If you don't pay it, your application/request will stick at the bottom of the queue. Or, you give the parking warden a 20k backhander instead of getting a 50k fine.

There seems to be a sort of general understanding of what's acceptable "presents" and what's actually bribery.

It's not so many years ago that English custom condoned the same attitude. read Pepys' Diary and not his attitude towards "presents".

[Clockwork]

I tend to think shes not guilty, simply because I can think of no reason why anyone would transport thousands of dollars of anything to a country where its barely worth hundreds. :confused:

[justsomeguy]

You see in certain countries corruption is a necessary way of life.

Just like in America tipping is considered an actual part of the waiters salary - meaning it is expected to be given.

In some countries the govt' agents etc are paid so poorly that for them to live a decent life they need some sort of extra compensation. This starts at a small level and grows as you climb up the corporate food chain, slowly getting bolstered by politics, greed and envy until it reaches levels that cannot be overcome.

That has been the way of the land for decades and anybody who tries to blaze his/her own trail is made to either get with the program or shut up shop and leave.

[Paul in NZ]

I tend to think shes not guilty, simply because I can think of no reason why anyone would transport thousands of dollars of anything to a country where its barely worth hundreds. :confused:

No, thats not the case.

There was an article in the paper about this issue and it is very worthwhile to import grass into Bali.

Cheers

[justsomeguy]

I tend to think shes not guilty, simply because I can think of no reason why anyone would transport thousands of dollars of anything to a country where its barely worth hundreds. :confused:

It's definitely one of "those" cases. Too many that's too stupid to be true scenarios in this case.

[Biff]

I've found in Indonesia that if you want anything done you have to accompany the request with a "present". Usually for me only 20 or 50 000 Rupiah (about $50). So not a big sum, though I guess at higher levels the presents are larger.

Likewise whenever I deal with Indonesia it's a given that there are several 'mouths to feed' before anyone does a single thing. And I'm talking about politicians and their hoards of so called 'advisors' that pop out of the woodwork. All leaches In my book.


But I'm not sure that I'd call it "corruption". In general the present won't get an official to do something that's actually wrong or let you get away with actual illegality (at any more than parking ticket level)

I *ahem* know first hand that all it takes it a backhander to get around legalities and official beauracracy. And this in itself is illegal under Indonesian law. And indeed international trade law. Alledgedly.

[mikey]

They won't for me - I'm bald, fat, white, and middle aged. The only people that would give a crap would be my immediate family. I guarantee it.

nah mate id give A SHIT, I WANT YOUR BIKE!

[mikey]

It's definitely one of "those" cases. Too many that's too stupid to be true scenarios in this case.


I tend to think shes not guilty, simply because I can think of no reason why anyone would transport thousands of dollars of anything to a country where its barely worth hundreds. :confused:

wong!!!!!!!!!!! I MEAN wtrong!!!!!!!!!!! I MEAN WRONG........... GOT IT AT LAST, SHOULDN BE DRIBNKING THIS EARLY IN THE MORNING.

AS PUAL SAID THERE WAS A ARTICLE IN PAPER

it said its a fucking good business ijmporting pot into bali, she was just stupid how she did it (if she did or not thats not the point) its a fucking good business

WHY...................

firstly,

there is fuck loads of shit horse pot in bali, what was in shcalpel or whoevers bag was hydroponically growen wqith some huge buds, not the shit the natives grow,

secondly,

westerners have growen wary off buying pot oiff natives as it could be a cop (an its pretty shit stuff as previously mentioned) they pay as much if not more than what we pay here for good hydroponically growen pot, from westerners as there is less chance of it beinga copper in disguise or should i say a copper on duty :rofl:

thirdyl;

i dont no another reason

NOTE READ FIRST NOT LAST [IF YOUR MEMORY IS AS GOOD AS MINE]

when i say westerners i mean white p[eople just doesnt sound as racist

[Clockwork]

Thanks for the input, Mikey. That puts a whole other spin on things.

[Lou Girardin]

Weight of evidence: guilty
Her past is an indication that she has the character to be guilty, that cannot be changed and probably dissuaded any possible doubt in the judiciary's mind. We'd be better putting our names to having that corrupt Islamic cleric of Bali bombing conspiracy fame jailed for a term that's more appropriate to his crime. He got 2 years, Corby got 20; there's the travesty. Freed she should not be!

What past?

[Marmoot]

Regardless of guilty or not, I think the whole media spin was actually the one putting this case into trouble.

I am talking in respect to jurisprudence and precedent that this case would set, in the case that she got set free.
If she got set free, then every one of drug smugglers that gets caught will plead ignorance and had to be set free even with similar(ly weak) defense.
And that would put the "justice" system (that they are desperately trying to repair) into jeopardy.

One avenue that can be accepted is to convict Corby as usual and to send clear signal to drug smugglers that the court cannot be taken lightly. Afterwards, the President can actually grant remission or even just to cut the sentence (significantly) shorter based solely on good behaviour. This move will not set any precedent and thus will not have long term effect on justice system, as it is solely President's prerogative rights to do so.

So, in light of this, I reckon any appeals would be worthless, and could even carry heavier penalties to act as further deterent.

If the case hasn't been spun out of proportion, they actually might have gotten off with lesser sentence quietly.

And, on the other angle, President or Aussie Prime Minister would not be able to interfere with the justice system as they are supposed to be independent. So in this respect any petition would be worthless.

P.S.
Aren't we supposed to lock our baggages and be extra vigilant? And, moreover, 4.1kg of things would be very noticeable, wouldn't it?
Either she is guilty, or she is very stupid. Unfortunately, both ways carry hard consequences.

[Lou Girardin]

Gee Mikey, you think it's good business to buy a product for thousands and sell it for hundreds.
I've got a bridge you might be interested in.

Reasonable doubt doesn't seem to be a concept in Indonesian law. I bet some would like to see that system here.

[mikey]

[QUOTE=Lou Girardin]Gee Mikey, you think it's good business to buy a product for thousands and sell it for hundreds.
I've got a bridge you might be interested in.

[QUOTE]

it depends doesnt if lou.

if you pay 10 lots of a thousand for a kg, or grow the shit yourself.....

an sell it off at 200 lots of a hundred then yess it doexs mkae fucking sense.

read the article in dominion post saturday about why people bring pot into bali.

its a lucrative business, or thats what im lead to believe.

if you were in bali who would you rather buy off......

some shit tinny full of stalk from a local who might be a cop or

from a westerner who has hydro growen huge buds, for a little more for peace of mind andfuck loads more potent

you decide

[onearmedbandit]

Nah, I'll just stick to gettimg mine here in NZ.

And now for a bit of fence sitting. Unlike some here, I don't know ALL the facts relating to this particular case so therefore am unable to offer a position. Other than, if she's guilty she should do the time and vice-versa. However, I like what someone said (I think it was the first reply) in regards to the Bali Bomber geting 2yrs and Corby getting 20...

[Paul in NZ]

Nah, I'll just stick to gettimg mine here in NZ.

And now for a bit of fence sitting. Unlike some here, I don't know ALL the facts relating to this particular case so therefore am unable to offer a position. Other than, if she's guilty she should do the time and vice-versa. However, I like what someone said (I think it was the first reply) in regards to the Bali Bomber geting 2yrs and Corby getting 20...

Ya got to look at it from their point of view..

To some he (the bomber) is a working class hero blowing evil rude wankers to pieces while doing gods work on earth... She is an evil drug peddler bringing misery and death to millions (and not giving out 'presents' either which is REALLY bad form).

Unless you are in their lives you can't see it the way they do! Their values systems are not our but in the case of drugs it is written in VERY big letters every place you enter their country. Ray Charles could not have missed it!

[Fart]

Ps – Just be a bit careful when making cross cultural value judgments. Just remember that us euros have a bad habit of strutting about assuming our ways are the civilized ways. We expect Asian people to adopt our ‘ways’ when they come here (bloody asian drivers etc) it’s reasonable to accept their ways when we visit them…

That is the most sensible and intelligent statement anyone has ever said in this KB forum on ethic issues. :niceone: I may use your quote for the signature. :niceone:

[Lou Girardin]

I'm afraid that wrong is wrong regardless of culture.

[Biff]

I'm afraid that wrong is wrong regardless of culture.

Woman 'Allowing' themselves to be raped in the eyes of some Middles Eastern and African nations is punishable by death. We see the person being raped, not as being wrong, but as being a victim. Not so the govts and peoples of these countries.

We believe it's wrong to perform genital mutilation. Others believe vaginal circumcision is more than acceptable, despite the horrific side effects this can cause.

What's right for some, is barbaric and so utterly wrong for others, and is wholly dependant on your culture.

[Paul in NZ]

Woman 'Allowing' themselves to be raped in the eyes of some Middles Eastern and African nations is punishable by death. We see the person being raped, not as being wrong, but as being a victim. Not so the govts and peoples of these countries.

We believe it's wrong to perform genital mutilation. Others believe vaginal circumcision is more than acceptable, despite the horrific side effects this can cause.

What's right for some, is barbaric and so utterly wrong for others, and is wholly dependant on your culture.

I totally agree with you here. Right and wrong are subjective. Until you understand this you are doomed to forever be trapped in a circle of violence. "Charge lads, remember god is on our side!"

Ah hem..

The problem is that cultural mores are exploited by unscrupulous people to justify evil deeds. That is common across all cultures.

HOWEVER - If you look deeply or spend time with the common folk you will discover that most 'ordinary' peoples, regardless of creed or religion share more in the way of common values that there are differences.

Cheers

[StoneChucker]

Ok, I agree Right and Wrong are subjective. But then you have to ask, what sort of society condones execution of rape VICTIMS and genital mutilation??? :weird:

Ah, :whocares: , they're only women... :weird: *

* Said with sarcasm, just incase anyone didn't pick that up..........

[jazbug5]

I think you will find that there are local initiatives concerned with changing these practises/beliefs in the countries concerned; actually, in certain African countries (I will admit, I am thinking of a documentary I saw last year and can't remember specifics) the Church is actively involved in persuading families not to do this to their children. I thought at the time it was great to see the Church doing something so positive- it even had some residential schools for girls who felt in danger of being forced to be circumcised against their wishes.
Okay, this stuff is sensitive, and I'm not sure I'd feel justified in marching into a country and telling them what to do, but I'm pretty sure there are quite a few brave souls who oppose these things in their own countries. Good for them. They stand more chance of changing things and have more right to than me- and probably wouldn't feel they needed my help anyway...
Rambling a bit. Sorry.

[Hitcher]

I'm afraid that wrong is wrong regardless of culture.
I think that could be debated endlessly, without resolution. Regardless of culture...

[Hitcher]

Ya got to look at it from their point of view..

To some he (the bomber) is a working class hero blowing evil rude wankers to pieces while doing gods work on earth... She is an evil drug peddler bringing misery and death to millions (and not giving out 'presents' either which is REALLY bad form).

Unless you are in their lives you can't see it the way they do! Their values systems are not our but in the case of drugs it is written in VERY big letters every place you enter their country. Ray Charles could not have missed it!
Isn't this the same point Jim2 was making on the other Schapelle thread that seemed to ignite a particularly nasty exchange?

[Skyryder]

Isn't this the same point Jim2 was making on the other Schapelle thread that seemed to ignite a particularly nasty exchange?

No it's not. An injustice is an injustice reguadless of what legal system is used.

If an innocent person is found guilty in our system that makes it no better or worse if an innocent person is found guilty in another judical system. However the burdon of proof is greater here than 'there.'

Values 'are' relative in how we ascertaiin right from wrong. While there is no doubt that dope was found in Corby's bag there is 'doubt' (no eveidence) that she placed or even knew it was there. Now I believe that most people reguardless of culture would not consider a conviction in those circumstnces (Corbys) as being just, and, I dare suggest that most, like myself would consider it unjust. This in essence is the crux of the matter. It is not whether Corby recieved a fair trial it's whether and innocent female has been jailed for twenty years for something she did not do.

Sometimes when events occur outside of our control I am reminded of the saying "There but for the Grace of God go I."


Skyryder

[Hitcher]

It is not whether Corby recieved a fair trial it's whether and innocent female has been jailed for twenty years for something she did not do.
Are you saying that she could have received a fair trial AND STILL be jailed for 20 years for something she did not do?

[Skyryder]

Are you saying that she could have received a fair trial AND STILL be jailed for 20 years for something she did not do?

No I am not.

Skyryder


PS But it has happened here. Fair trial + false evidence= injustice. Ask Arther Allan Thomas. There is also some doubt about Peter Ellis, Scot Watson and some would say Bain's. A fair trial will not garantee justice it's just that it will in most cases.

Skyryder

[James Deuce]

No it's not. An injustice is an injustice reguadless of what legal system is used.



It is the same point I tried to make before you deliberately started the selective quoting and tangential interpretation of what I was saying.

[Enn]

They won't for me - I'm bald, fat, white, and middle aged. The only people that would give a crap would be my immediate family. I guarantee it.
And all the k'bers that would miss yer... unless you could have a 'puter in yer cell,then....... :whistle: :rofl:

[Paul in NZ]

Ok, I agree Right and Wrong are subjective. But then you have to ask, what sort of society condones execution of rape VICTIMS and genital mutilation??? :weird:

Ah, :whocares: , they're only women... :weird: *

* Said with sarcasm, just incase anyone didn't pick that up..........

Ours - I was circumcised without my permission!

[StoneChucker]

Ours - I was circumcised without my permission!
DON'T even get me started on THAT!!! I see it EVERY week, I just can't understand it! Why put your child at risk of death with an unnecessary procedure? Wonder what those "parents" would feel like if their child died of a reaction to the anaesthetic... sigh

However, I do differentiate between circumcision in a first world hospital and mutilation next to a mud hut in a third world country. While my views on the former are strong, I will admit it's 99% safe. But, if I were a parent, I certainly wouldn't gamble with 1% odds of killing my child.

[Hitcher]

I will admit it's 99% safe. But, if I were a parent, I certainly wouldn't gamble with 1% odds of killing my child.
You'll be joining the anti-vaccination, hand-knitted hemp underwear brigade at this rate...

[StoneChucker]

You'll be joining the anti-vaccination, hand-knitted hemp underwear brigade at this rate...
Nah ;) I just got my flu vaccination the other week, and you can wear whatever underwear you like as far as I'm concerned, as long as they are clean :whistle:

[Lou Girardin]

DON'T even get me started on THAT!!! I see it EVERY week, I just can't understand it! Why put your child at risk of death with an unnecessary procedure? Wonder what those "parents" would feel like if their child died of a reaction to the anaesthetic... sigh

However, I do differentiate between circumcision in a first world hospital and mutilation next to a mud hut in a third world country. While my views on the former are strong, I will admit it's 99% safe. But, if I were a parent, I certainly wouldn't gamble with 1% odds of killing my child.

Anaesthetic Hah!
It used to be done without anaesthetic, probably still is in the Jewish community.

[Eurodave]

Ours - I was circumcised without my permission!

What is the jewish priests motto after performing a circumcision?








"WE KEEP THE PIECE!!!"

[Eurodave]

After that, what do they do with all those foreskins?








Turn them into burger rings!!

[StoneChucker]

ahhhh, thats just sick :niceone:
I love it :rofl:

[Lou Girardin]

[QUOTE=Eurodave]After that, what do they do with all those foreskins?








Make more politicians!

[Lou Girardin]

Why couldn't they circumcise Winstone?











There's no end to the prick.

[Paul in NZ]

DON'T even get me started on THAT!!! I see it EVERY week, I just can't understand it! Why put your child at risk of death with an unnecessary procedure? Wonder what those "parents" would feel like if their child died of a reaction to the anaesthetic... sigh

However, I do differentiate between circumcision in a first world hospital and mutilation next to a mud hut in a third world country. While my views on the former are strong, I will admit it's 99% safe. But, if I were a parent, I certainly wouldn't gamble with 1% odds of killing my child.

OK. So what we have here is a society that is told by it's doctors that the benefits of male circumcision in our 'hospitals' outweigh the risks...

Can't you understand that in their culture the parents are told a similar thing. To you the problems are obvious but to them (believe me, they want the best for their child) it's not so clear cut. (ouch nasty pun there) You have to get past the gasp horror shock brigade and try to understand whats really going on. These people have been doing this a long long time and are not going to stop because some outsider says STOP you are wrong! You would be offended if their specialist (the Shaman) told you what we do is repugnent to them.

I don't 'like' it either but getting people to change is not as simple as you might think!

[StoneChucker]

OK. So what we have here is a society that is told by it's doctors that the benefits of male circumcision in our 'hospitals' outweigh the risks...

Can't you understand that in their culture the parents are told a similar thing. To you the problems are obvious but to them (believe me, they want the best for their child) it's not so clear cut. (ouch nasty pun there) You have to get past the gasp horror shock brigade and try to understand whats really going on. These people have been doing this a long long time and are not going to stop because some outsider says STOP you are wrong! You would be offended if their specialist (the Shaman) told you what we do is repugnent to them.

I don't 'like' it either but getting people to change is not as simple as you might think!
Mate, I've got no qualms admitting that some of what I do is repugnant ;)

[Indiana_Jones]

Frank Bullitt can crack this case.

I like Steve McQueen Too much :whocares:

But I don't know if she's innocent or not, the media won't give the details.

-Indy

[Fart]

DON'T even get me started on THAT!!! I see it EVERY week, I just can't understand it! Why put your child at risk of death with an unnecessary procedure? Wonder what those "parents" would feel like if their child died of a reaction to the anaesthetic... sigh

However, I do differentiate between circumcision in a first world hospital and mutilation next to a mud hut in a third world country. While my views on the former are strong, I will admit it's 99% safe. But, if I were a parent, I certainly wouldn't gamble with 1% odds of killing my child.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have our up bring and education as most of us do in NZ. Rather than degrade and attack those that have differences, maybe we should show some understanding and assist them in their needs. Most in the third world struggle dayly to get enough food to feed themselves and their families let along understand the politics of right and wrong. Maybe we should travel abit before we make judgements.

[StoneChucker]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have our up bring and education as most of us do in NZ. Rather than degrade and attack those that have differences, maybe we should show some understanding and assist them in their needs. Most in the third world struggle dayly to get enough food to feed themselves and their families let along understand the politics of right and wrong. Maybe we should travel abit before we make judgements.
True. I agree, there are much bigger problems - I guess the main being the millions of starving people. I know that what I said previously is my view of things, and I didn't intend to try change anyone's mind.

Don't think for one minute that I don't know/care about those starving/persecuted people out there. I do. (Just nothing I can do about it, so don't spend much time thinking about it).

[ManDownUnder]

I don't know enough to sign it one way or the other... so I won't.

Give me al the facts so I can make up my own mind on stuff - but the trial by media isn't enough for me. Prima Facea she seems to have been framed... but like I say - that's the media's version of event...

Good luck to her and I honestly hope she gets what she deserves - whichever way that might be.

MDU

[Skyryder]

It is the same point I tried to make before you deliberately started the selective quoting and tangential interpretation of what I was saying.

Oh I see. Not content with accsuing me of the ambush, now you want to take the credit for something I wrote.

Let me refesh you with the facts of this thread. I was responding to Hitchers interpeation of my post. But now you fire your bullets at me. Excuse me, but sounds like an ambush......................missed.

Now I fire back.

Tangential interpretation...........what a load of codswallop....sounds like a load of intellectual drivel. No just plain drivel.

Skyryder 1 Jim2 0 Now go away


Skyryder

[James Deuce]

Oh I see. Not content with accsuing me of the ambush, now you want to take the credit for something I wrote.

Let me refesh you with the facts of this thread. I was responding to Hitchers interpeation of my post. But now you fire your bullets at me. Excuse me, but sounds like an ambush......................missed.

Now I fire back.

Tangential interpretation...........what a load of codswallop....sounds like a load of intellectual drivel. No just plain drivel.

Skyryder 1 Jim2 0 Now go away


Skyryder

I think you are taking this a little bit seriously. I've tried to point out that it was my opinion, but you took it personally for some reason.

We can either admit to both taking it too far in regard to the way we have addressed each other, or I'll just continue to dread logging on to kiwibiker.

[Skyryder]

I thought we had buried the hatchet in the other post but you dug it up again.

I don't take anything personal here Jim2. This forum is pure entertainment. Some humour, :rofl: : some drama, :ar15: bit of ol' time religion :devil2: and most of all camaraderie. :grouphug:




Stay sharp stay cool and most of all stay alive.


Skyryder

[Hitcher]

No I am not.

Skyryder


PS But it has happened here. Fair trial + false evidence= injustice. Ask Arther Allan Thomas. There is also some doubt about Peter Ellis, Scot Watson and some would say Bain's. A fair trial will not garantee justice it's just that it will in most cases.

Skyryder
Point 1: The law isn't about justice. It's about due process. "Justice" is incredibly subjective, a point made by many others (some quite eloquently) in regard to the various Schapelle Corby threads. Due legal process is an attempt at objectivising the judicial process. It is less than perfect on some occasions.

Point 2: False evidence provides the basis for an appeal. A trial that convicted or acquitted on the basis of incomplete or inaccurate evidence yet still followed due process is subject to appeal, just as a trial that did not follow due process may also be appealed. If the outcome of an earlier trial is changed on appeal, then the first trial is by definition unfair.

As a further point of clarification, Arthur Thomas got a Royal Pardon -- as a result of the ultimate form of appeal in New Zealand.

[Skyryder]

Point 1: The law isn't about justice. It's about due process. "Justice" is incredibly subjective, a point made by many others (some quite eloquently) in regard to the various Schapelle Corby threads. Due legal process is an attempt at objectivising the judicial process. It is less than perfect on some occasions.

Point 2: False evidence provides the basis for an appeal. A trial that convicted or acquitted on the basis of incomplete or inaccurate evidence yet still followed due process is subject to appeal, just as a trial that did not follow due process may also be appealed. If the outcome of an earlier trial is changed on appeal, then the first trial is by definition unfair.

As a further point of clarification, Arthur Thomas got a Royal Pardon -- as a result of the ultimate form of appeal in New Zealand.


The law is about justice. Justice is acheieved by due process.

Hitcher if I thought for one minute you had something to say of importance I would be willing to debate with you on any subject. However your last two posts have confirmed that you are unable to interpretate my comments correctly. As such I humbly suggest that you go cast your line in another direction where you may get a better bite.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

The law is about justice. Justice is acheieved by due process.

Hitcher if I thought for one minute you had something to say of importance I would be willing to debate with you on any subject. However your last two posts have confirmed that you are unable to interpretate my comments correctly. As such I humbly suggest that you go cast your line in another direction where you may get a better bite.

Skyryder
Your humility overwhelms me to such an extent that I shall have to go and prostrate myself before the altar of Your Greatness. Forgive me for wasting your time, oh One of Huge and Immeasurable Intellect, for I am not worthy to offer opinions within your purview.

[Ixion]

The law is about justice. Justice is acheieved by due process.

..

Law and Justice may on occasion meet in the same courtroom, but seldom do more than salute each other before departing by separate doors.

[Biff]

Lighten up chaps......

http://img116.echo.cx/img116/5113/343016rv.gif

[Skyryder]

Your humility overwhelms me to such an extent that I shall have to go and prostrate myself before the altar of Your Greatness. Forgive me for wasting your time, oh One of Huge and Immeasurable Intellect, for I am not worthy to offer opinions within your purview.

Just gave you a rep point for this.

Have a good one Hitch. :drinkup: :drinkup:


Skyryder

[Indiana_Jones]

http://distrb.sideways.co.nz/rs0019.jpg

-Indy

[John]

http://distrb.sideways.co.nz/rs0019.jpg

-Indy
HAHAHAHHA YOU ARE MY NEW GOD INDY TAKE ME!