The difference between men and women.

[Edbear]

Wasn't sure which forum to post this in and I have an idea it may head in a certain direction. However my previous threads, such as "What is a man?" provoked a lot of thought and some very interesting responses.

So I'd like to know your thoughts on the differences between men and women and why they are so.

In most Mammals the male of the species is larger and stronger than the female and this is the rule in human beings. At first you may laugh and scoff, but if you think about it, why are men bigger and stronger than women? Why are men's brains, emotional makeup and mental processes different from women's?

These are physical differences and nothing to do with personal preferences, general intelligence or the odd exception to the rule.

If you take your time and ponder over this before you post, you may be surprised at what you find out.

[Winston001]

It all comes down to genetics. Our genes need to be expressed and survive into the next generation.

To do so, the male must be physically strong in order to overwhelm protein sources (meat), defend himself, and protect his mate and their children. Provide and protect. Additionally the male isn't particular about who bears his children so is always ready for a spot of extra procreation just to ensure his gene pool dominates.

Women do not need the physical mass of the male as their energy is focused on harvesting seeds, berries etc, cherishing the children, and providing a safe place for all of them to live. Bearing another man's child is fraught with danger because she cannot rely upon the other man, and her mate will reject both her and the child.

There are variations such as lionesses which are more fierce than the males, but still don't grow as large.

[rainman]

So I'd like to know your thoughts on the differences between men and women and why they are so.

In most Mammals the male of the species is larger and stronger than the female and this is the rule in human beings. At first you may laugh and scoff, but if you think about it, why are men bigger and stronger than women?

Because it made evolutionary sense: women bore children and cared for them (couldn't hunt to the degree men did as they were protecting the sprogs), men went out and hunted/foraged. Wimpy men turned into sabre tooth snacks, wimpy women couldn't handle the rigours of childbirth (tougher then than now, and it's not a walk in the park now). Big women were at an evolutionary disadvantage as they needed more food (although there is an interesting thought there about co-operation I might come back to), big men were more successful so were selected for, but up to basic biological and food efficiency limits. (What's the relationship between body mass and calorific requirements? Linear or non-linear?)

This logic holds true for all of the species I can think of where females bear and nurture offspring - particularly true for us given gestation period and relative helplessness of newborn humans, of course.


Why are men's brains, emotional makeup and mental processes different from women's?

Before I can answer that - in what key ways do you think they are different? I agree they are - just not sure of what perspective you are bringing here. It's easy to do real science with body mass and physical strength - more subjective measures like "emotional makeup" are open to a great deal more interpretation.

[Edbear]

That is what many if not most people would respond with, but physical size is really irrelevant to your points. As your example of the Lion suggests. The Lioness does most of the hunting, but is not necessarily more fierce than the male. An aroused male is virtually unstoppable though appears to have less stamina than the female generally.

In humans there is no reason why it should be the way it is from the purely physical side of the equation.

You make an interesting point though,as regards the male protecting the female. Why? Again he does not need to be physically larger than the female to do so, this is an instinctive trait of men in general and unrelated to size.

Why is the woman smaller and weaker? She need not be. My thread about "What is a Man?" explored why are men not only physically stronger but also mentally and emotionally stronger. Why is man dominant?

[Winston001]

Why is the woman smaller and weaker? She need not be. My thread about "What is a Man?" explored why are men not only physically stronger but also mentally and emotionally stronger. Why is man dominant?

Say whut?? You must be having a laugh Ed. The genders are balanced, no dominant/weak split. If you were right, the dominance would be more of one sex than the other - which doesn't happen.

Your core question should be - why are there two sexes?? Even among plants. Why has evolution removed the ability to self-propagate?

[Edbear]

Rainman your answer is also the normal response, but passes over some salient points. Mankind has not just been hunter-gatherers, but has always harvested both animals and crops and lived in societies for mutual benefit. His superior intelligence has ensured his survival and prosperity when his physical vulnerability would otherwise have led to his extinction.

Regards emotional strength, while it may at first appear to be abscure, it is a medically proven fact that men are indeed stronger in every way generally than women. Ther are exceptions certainly and there are some very weak men and some very strong women, but I'm talking as a species.

[Edbear]

Say whut?? You must be having a laugh Ed. The genders are balanced, no dominant/weak split. If you were right, the dominance would be more of one sex than the other - which doesn't happen.

Your core question should be - why are there two sexes?? Even among plants. Why has evolution removed the ability to self-propagate?

That is also an interesting question. Why are there male and female in any species?

However, as I said it is scientific that there are the differences I have posted between the sexes and it is undeniable that men are the dominant creature on this planet. This cannot be solely attributed to physical size and strength as it is a simple thing for a woman to kill a man and even easier for most animals to kill a man.

[Fatt Max]

One of us have beards and willies, the other is the male....

That is, of course, if you are living in Iran

[Winston001]

Mankind has not just been hunter-gatherers, but has always harvested both animals and crops and lived in societies for mutual benefit. His superior intelligence has ensured his survival and prosperity when his physical vulnerability would otherwise have led to his extinction.

This is fun, good on you Ed. Ok - crops as such only appeared when agriculture was discovered about 12000 years ago. Very recent invention. Prior to that it was hunter/gatherer nomadic survival for hundreds of thousands of years. Man is a communal animal as are the chimpanzees. Intelligence appears to be linked to firstly tool use and secondly the discovery of language.


Regards emotional strength, while it may at first appear to be abscure, it is a medically proven fact that men are indeed stronger in every way generally than women. Ther are exceptions certainly and there are some very weak men and some very strong women, but I'm talking as a species.

Sources please.

[Edbear]

This is fun, good on you Ed. Ok - crops as such only appeared when agriculture was discovered about 12000 years ago. Very recent invention. Prior to that it was hunter/gatherer nomadic survival for hundreds of thousands of years. Man is a communal animal as are the chimpanzees. Intelligence appears to be linked to firstly tool use and secondly the discovery of language.



Sources please.

Okay, but it's my bedtime I'll post again tomorrow. My purpose was to get people thinking and have a bit of fun at the same time. Sorry I can't stay up later, I'm usually in bed by about 7pm these days.

[howdamnhard]

Your core question should be - why are there two sexes?? Even among plants. Why has evolution removed the ability to self-propagate?

Sex allows species to mix their gene pools and provide variation. If we self replicated/propagated we would be essentially clones with one immune system.Apparently we can smell a potential partners immune sys and pick partners with the most different from our own. One strain of disease coming along would wipe out the entire race. With variety only some of the race would die out due .

[SS90]

Why is the woman smaller and weaker? She need not be. My thread about "What is a Man?" explored why are men not only physically stronger but also mentally and emotionally stronger. Why is man dominant?

WTF?

You still think that men are emotionally and mentally stronger than women?

Really, dude, what sort of chicks do you hang out with......?

[SS90]

Why is the woman smaller and weaker? She need not be. My thread about "What is a Man?" explored why are men not only physically stronger but also mentally and emotionally stronger. Why is man dominant?

WTF?

You still think that men are emotionally and mentally stronger than women?

Really, dude, what sort of chicks do you hang out with......?

[Edbear]

WTF?

You still think that men are emotionally and mentally stronger than women?

Really, dude, what sort of chicks do you hang out with......?

Not based on personal experience, mate. Sure, I'm stronger than my wife, but it doesn't mean my wife is weak or doesn't have a voice and a strength of her own. Most women I know are independent thinkers with intelligence and their own strengths and weaknesses just like men.

I know men who are weak whimps and I know women who are domineering and strong-willed, but as I said, if you look at mankind as a species, the male is the stronger, dominant one, if he weren't women would rule the world instead. Note my point in post #7 above.

For a bit of controversy, try this... IMHO too many men are whimps, unwilling for selfish reasons to act like men, that is as a protector and nourisher of women due to sexual desire and see women as bodies, not people. Too many offer weak excuses to abdicate their role because they just want to be animals and have sex with as many women as possible for as long as possible with no thought of what is in the woman's best interests. In short, too many men let their dicks do their thinking for them.

Where is their self-discipline, their self-control for the common good?

[Edbear]

Sex allows species to mix their gene pools and provide variation. If we self replicated/propagated we would be essentially clones with one immune system.Apparently we can smell a potential partners immune sys and pick partners with the most different from our own. One strain of disease coming along would wipe out the entire race. With variety only some of the race would die out due .

Not really, if you look at self-propagation, in every species of plant or animal, reproduction is effectively accomplished whichever way it is done. Nature is beautifully balanced and incredibly designed for survival. My point is why things are the way they are, not that the way they are works well.

So, yes, mixing the gene pool and the huge variety in mankind is good and beneficial, but that is because of the way man is physically. So is the fact that we have so much variation in our preferences and in what we find attractive, otherwise we would all be after the same type of partner.

[Number One]

Boys are Smelly :innocent:

nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah

*skips away with pigtails and petticoats flying*

[avgas]

Boys are Smelly :innocent:

nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah

*skips away with pigtails and petticoats flying*
Girls have kooties

[Genie]

men are men, though some think they are women.

women are women...though some think they are men

all in all, we're human.

[Teflon]

Boys are Smelly :innocent:

nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah

*skips away with pigtails and petticoats flying*
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[avgas]

Google Martina Lee.....

[rainman]

Mankind has not just been hunter-gatherers, but has always harvested both animals and crops and lived in societies for mutual benefit.

Winston's beaten me to this, but sorry, that's just flat wrong. Agriculture/civilisation is but a recent mistake.


His superior intelligence has ensured his survival and prosperity when his physical vulnerability would otherwise have led to his extinction.

I think you are confusing causes and effects. We are what was selected for by circumstance. Those ancestors that were physically vulnerable did go extinct, and the stronger lot survived. If cunning assisted that, and was genetically expressed, then it survived too.

Evolution isn't moral. Life just happens. Now we've kicked in a significant chunk of societal evolution too you can see that writ large - our economic and political systems select for a bunch of traits that are not of the greatest moral purity, just the greatest utility for achieving success. This is complicated by the fact that success/failure consequences are not real (death) but concern a virtual and fluid concept of money/wealth. We're playing a game, and the winners are the sociopaths.

Same concept with biology: life does what works, not what's "good".


it is a medically proven fact that men are indeed stronger in every way generally than women.

Not trying to be difficult here but two things:
1. To be "medically" (scientifically) proven implies here that there is a specific causation hypothesis being tested (if man then...), and something empirical being measured. What's being measured in these studies?
2. Anecdotally, I'm not so sure. Women endure a great deal of hardship in many contexts and at an emotional level seem better able to deal with this than many men. No, not a scientific pronouncement, but certainly cause to question your thesis.


Why is man dominant?

Ed, I'm sure you have a rational(-ised?) reason for these debates but I have to tell ya, psychologically it is of concern that you seem to need to assert power and dominance (by gender proxy) from time to time. Are you OK?

[Fatt Max]

Women are alright, but they are not like the real thing.......

[Edbear]

Winston's beaten me to this, but sorry, that's just flat wrong. Agriculture/civilisation is but a recent mistake.


Ed, I'm sure you have a rational(-ised?) reason for these debates but I have to tell ya, psychologically it is of concern that you seem to need to assert power and dominance (by gender proxy) from time to time. Are you OK?

a/ I'll get back to this and the science next.

b/ Not at all, please don't misunderstand me, as I said, this is not based on personal experience, it's based on studying human kind and human psychology/biology and observation. As I also said, my wife, while not being as strong as I am, is no weakling and has her own voice. Our marriage is a complementary partnership and I value and appreciate her qualities and her contribution. I readily acknowledge her skills and intelligence and rely upon her input and respect her opinions.

I'd like some input from our female members on this. :yes:

[Slyer]

As said, our different physiology is based entirely on gender roles.
Males fight over who gets to screw the females,
Large males are more likely to win these fights,
Thus, the female's offspring are more likely to share the genetics of the larger males.
Because of this, the offspring are more likely to be larger and better at fighting and the cycle continues. For millions of years.
This is the answer, there's nothing more to it.

I suggest you read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins if you haven't already.

[Edbear]

As said, our different physiology is based entirely on gender roles.
Males fight over who gets to screw the females,
Large males are more likely to win these fights,
Thus, the female's offspring are more likely to share the genetics of the larger males.
Because of this, the offspring are more likely to be larger and better at fighting and the cycle continues. For millions of years.
This is the answer, there's nothing more to it.

I suggest you read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins if you haven't already.

I have a copy of The Selfish Gene and have read it many times. You are quite wrong. At times in the wild with animals such occurs but definitely not among mankind, unless it's in a pub among a couple of drunks and then the female would have to be drunk as well... You're not talking reality here.

While there have been and are societies that demean women to prey and second-class status, I doubt any female member here would agree with you that it is proper or desirable and that they choose their own mates.

[Stirts]

Sex:
Women prefer 30 - 45 minutes of foreplay. Men prefer 30 - 45 seconds of foreplay.

Admitting Mistakes:
Women will sometimes admit making a mistake. The last man who admitted that he was wrong was Gen. George Custer.

Mustaches:
Some men look good with mustaches. Those men are Tom Selleck and Burt Reynolds. There are no women who look good with mustaches.

[Edbear]

Notice that the posts disagreeing with me are by men who bring it all down to sex and their "right" to "screw" any female they can conquer..?

This is simplistic and plain wrong. Ask members who are long term married, or the female members for their views and you will get a completely different perspective.

[avgas]

I have a copy of The Selfish Gene and have read it many times. You are quite wrong. At times in the wild with animals such occurs but definitely not among mankind, unless it's in a pub among a couple of drunks and then the female would have to be drunk as well... You're not talking reality here.

While there have been and are societies that demean women to prey and second-class status, I doubt any female member here would agree with you that it is proper or desirable and that they choose their own mates.
Have to agree here. Most women go out, date, sleep with, have babies with.
Weak, ugly pathetic morons.
These morons breed as much as possible.

[Edbear]

Sex:
Women prefer 30 - 45 minutes of foreplay. Men prefer 30 - 45 seconds of foreplay.

Admitting Mistakes:
Women will sometimes admit making a mistake. The last man who admitted that he was wrong was Gen. George Custer.

Mustaches:
Some men look good with mustaches. Those men are Tom Selleck and Burt Reynolds. There are no women who look good with mustaches.

Hmmm. I like to play for as long as possible... :innocent:

I allus admit my mistakes, it's just I rarely make any... :shutup:

Agreed, although a barely discernable line can look fine on some women. A manly look tends to be a bit off-putting... :yes:

[Edbear]

Have to agree here. Most women go out, date, sleep with, have babies with.
Weak, ugly pathetic morons.
These morons breed as much as possible.

That's another puzzle, actually. Are real men is such short supply and so hard to find that women go from one bad relationship to another, endlessly hoping this one will be better..? I personally know several women who can't seem to find the right guy and jump into a relationship too quickly or ignoring the warning signs because they are desperate for a relationship.

[Stirts]

men <s>who</s> say <s>bring it all down to</s> it's all about sex <s>and</s> it is their "right" to "screw" <s>any</s> and conquer as many females as they possibly can!

Fixed it for you :D

[Fatt Max]

Mustaches:
Some men look good with mustaches. Those men are Tom Selleck and Burt Reynolds. There are no women who look good with mustaches.

Apart from Susan Boyle, she has a mo you could lose a badger in...Imagine snogging her after she has dined on a crusty pie....crumb heaven and no mistake.....phhhooooaaaarrrrr..............!!

[Stirts]

Imagine snogging her after she has dined on a crusty pie....crumb heaven and no mistake.....phhhooooaaaarrrrr..............!!

Even crusty fish pie?

[Fatt Max]

Even crusty fish pie?

ESPECIALLY crusty fish pie......

[Stirts]

ESPECIALLY crusty fish pie......

Well there you go, all it takes to tempt a man is a crusty fish pie!

[Fatt Max]

Well there you go, all it takes to tempt a man is a crusty fish pie!

As long as it is hanging out of Susan Boyle's mo.....

I hear she has hairy bollocks as well.....ooohhhhhh

[avgas]

That's another puzzle, actually. Are real men is such short supply and so hard to find that women go from one bad relationship to another, endlessly hoping this one will be better..? I personally know several women who can't seem to find the right guy and jump into a relationship too quickly or ignoring the warning signs because they are desperate for a relationship.

Right so we have found a similarity in a difference here.
To summarize

Men - desperate for a fuck
Women - desperate for a relationship

Fuck I feel sorry for women now, at least us men have an obtainable, real world goal. Women are hunting for some-kind of mysterious Unicorn they made up in their minds.

[Number One]

Girls have kooties

We do and boys LOVE them!

[Stirts]

Women are hunting for some-kind of mysterious Unicorn they made up in their minds.

Unicorns are very real....
http://www.lesbiansexstory.tv/sex-toys/images/NW/1899-1.JPG

[Number One]

212671
Mustaches: There are no women who look good with mustaches.

SO true...even this hotty can't rock her (green) mo....

[Edbear]

As long as it is hanging out of Susan Boyle's mo.....

I hear she has hairy bollocks as well.....ooohhhhhh

Sometimes I worry about you mate... :bye:

[Maha]

Dead easy.....
Men have balls...
Women do not!

[Edbear]

Dead easy.....
Men have balls...
Women do not!

Actually they do, which raises another question. Why are men's outside and women's inside...? :mellow:

[Genie]

Dead easy.....
Men have balls...
Women do not!

I beg to differ....

http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/14c/8/AAAAAlcYuigAAAAAAUyBrg.jpg


...and they come in a mulitude of colours and sizes!

[avgas]

Dead easy.....
Men have balls...
Women do not!
Helen Clarke..............

[Edbear]

I beg to differ....

http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/14c/8/AAAAAlcYuigAAAAAAUyBrg.jpg


...and they come in a mulitude of colours and sizes!

Unfortunately I'm all repped out for a while... :niceone:

[Maha]

Actually they do, which raises another question. Why are men's outside and women's inside...? :mellow:

So women dont really exist, they are hermaphrodites?


I beg to differ....
...and they come in a mulitude of colours and sizes!

Different sizes? They would have to in some cases.


Helen Clarke..............

She had Peter no balls.

[Edbear]

So women dont really exist, they are hermaphrodites?.

I was meaning the ovaries...

[Hans]

Actually they do, which raises another question. Why are men's outside and women's inside...? :mellow:

Biology 101. Sperm production requires a narrow temperature range and the baseline temp is lower than your body core temp. Your ballsack gets closer to or further away from your body to maintain that temp. That's why budgie smugglers fuck your sperm count.

[Edbear]

Biology 101. Sperm production requires a narrow temperature range and the baseline temp is different to your body core temp. Your ballsack gets closer to or further away from your body to maintain that temp.

You're right of course and you can watch the sack moving on a cold day as it adjusts. But this doesn't answer my original question, which is why such things are so.

Why the differfences between men and women? If we are equal, why are men bigger, stronger, tougher when they don't need to be?

I know, I sound like a 4 year old - they are always asking "Why?", but isn't that how scientific discoveries are made? Why? How? Who? I seek to stimulate the mind rather than merely accepting what is just because it is. If we can answer why things are as they are, won't we really find a lot more?

[Edbear]

This is fun, good on you Ed. Ok - crops as such only appeared when agriculture was discovered about 12000 years ago. Very recent invention. Prior to that it was hunter/gatherer nomadic survival for hundreds of thousands of years. Man is a communal animal as are the chimpanzees. Intelligence appears to be linked to firstly tool use and secondly the discovery of language.

Sources please.

Let's look at some of the science. Here's a quote from Wikipedia summarising the differences between man and animal.

"Humans are known taxonomically as Homo sapiens (Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man"),[3][4] and are the only extant member of the Homo genus of bipedal primates in Hominidae, the great ape family. However, in some cases "human" is used to refer to any member of the genus Homo.

Humans have a highly developed brain, capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, and problem solving. This mental capability, combined with an erect body carriage that frees the hands for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make far greater use of tools than any other species. Mitochondrial DNA and fossil evidence indicates that modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago.[5] With individuals widespread in every continent except Antarctica, humans are a cosmopolitan species. As of May 2010[update], the population of humans was estimated to be about 6.8 billion.[6]

Like most higher primates, humans are social by nature. However, humans are uniquely adept at utilizing systems of communication for self-expression, the exchange of ideas, and organization. Humans create complex social structures composed of many cooperating and competing groups, from families to nations. Social interactions between humans have established an extremely wide variety of values, social norms, and rituals, which together form the basis of human society.

Humans are noted for their desire to understand and influence their environment, seeking to explain and manipulate natural phenomena through science, philosophy, mythology and religion. This natural curiosity has led to the development of advanced tools and skills, which are passed down culturally; humans are the only animal species known to build fires, cook their food, clothe themselves, and use numerous other technologies."

[Edbear]

Here's a perspective on some of the differences...

http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/Difference_between_male_and_female_structures__men tal_and_physical__a613_f0.html

[Teflon]

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[Hans]

There's a lot that could be said about this topic, but the basics are just that - simple. The differences between men and women largely come down to the established roles they used to play in earlier times...
Men used to hunt, wage war and protect against those seeking to do the same.
Women used to forage, keep the household /cave, whatever/ and give birth and raise the kids.
Hence men are stronger, faster, physically tougher, have better spatial orientation, can hear certain sounds better than women etc...
Women are more sensitive to certain parts of the visible light spectrum (red - berries), can hear certain other sounds better (crying babies) and arguably have better social skills (empathy etc..)

The interesting part for me personally is, how these predetermined traits and "modes of operation" often don't serve us well in modern society. And how, among other things, we are selectively breeding out the traits that are really important for the long term survival of society. But that is almost another whole new topic.

[Number One]

It's official...

I now know an uncomfortable amount about what it feels like to have a ball sack..

My dear tidy unappendaged genitals how I do prefer you to the awkward, floppy tender danglings that the boys deal with. I mean, I just can't even imagine always having to two foot jump with my knees apart! :shit:

OMG KB is so edumacational

[SS90]

but as I said, if you look at mankind as a species, the male is the stronger, dominant one, if he weren't women would rule the world instead.

I feel like I am picking on you a bit on this point, but I assure you I am just voicing my honest opinion..... Man, I just don't get how you can assert that men are the dominant sex in this world.

Edbear, I could sit here and type line after line on just how women actually rule the world, but i will use a really common example, which is really just an expansion of my previous one on the other thread you started.

On any Friday or Saturday night, in any country, (that is not Muslim perhaps) go out to a bar in the city, and say nothing, sit alone, with out your mates, and observe a few groups of women.

I can assure you, you will see groups of single women, get drink after drink brought for them, line after line thrown at them, macho action after macho action out on for their benefit, and male after male perform for their amusement.

The women drink for free, the men empty their pockets, and the girls go home.

In the words of Paul Weller.....

"NOW THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!"

This is just one Social example, in "normal life" women also rule the waves.

As men, we are subject to the weakest urge, that of procreation. It's a fact, and we cannot change it.

Women, from an early age learn just how to exploit that to their advantage.

Women are (generally) physically weaker, and, to survive in this world, they have to outwit their peers (Males), or face sexual abuse on a grand scale. The way to do that is to collectively have all the men believe that women are the "weaker sex", thereby lulling the more stupid males in to thinking that women are "weaker".

It's a simple process, since, "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" (women rock the cradle most of the time), right form birth we are trained be passified with our ego's (open this jam jar, I'm too weak, lift this bag of groceries etc), when, in reality, men are being trained to (falsely) believe women are weak.

It carries on through life, and, by the time you are adult, the "spell" is complete.

Women, at will (most of the time) can make (most) men "fall in love" (really simple actually), when this is achieved, you find yourself with kids etc. (which is a good thing by the way)

You will find that women actually control you.... most of the time, they keep your ego up, laugh at you jokes etc (in doing so, this controls your emotions (think about it), and, at their whim, they can also make you feel down (critisise you for something that they normally don't mention, instantly causing an endorphean cut off to your brain, making you feel "hurt"... (again, controlling your emotions)..... when you are in this "hurt phase", you are so much more to suggestions than normal.

Another way to achieve the same emotional state as hurting your pride is to dissapoint you (claim they always wanted to try something exciting, but always decline when you want to arrange it, or tell you how they always like this kind of sexual position, but "oh, it was better with my last boyfriend"

Don't believe me?

You where raised well mate!

Sorry Edbear, again Women are the superior sex, no doubt about it.

WHY DO THEY DO IT?.........

BECAUSE THEY CAN!

[Number One]

much anger and paranoia have you young jedi...men are just as capable of that emotional blackmail shit as women are and btw whenever I ask for help to do something that I 'can't do' it ain't about stroking anyones ego...sad to think you feel so many men are so fragile....and no I didn't have perfect parents...
http://kelseyblogs.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/yoda.jpg

[Genie]

I can see where he is coming from but not all women are like that. Some of us actually find the kind of situation he has described as disgusting. some of us actually stand on our on two feet. some of us actually have been taken for a right royal ride by the male species.

Face it, we're all the same but we're all different.

How confusing to be human...how about forget the intricacies of the human make-up and enjoy living. Make the most of every day and every opportunity you are presented with, if it doesn't go the way you would like then,move on.

(or ride your bike)

[avgas]

You're right of course and you can watch the sack moving on a cold day as it adjusts. But this doesn't answer my original question, which is why such things are so.
I think this also can happen to ovaries......See attached diagram212708http://lowercasemarcus.com/blog/images/RipleyAlien.jpg

[Love my Bonnie]

It's official...

I now know an uncomfortable amount about what it feels like to have a ball sack..

My dear tidy unappendaged genitals how I do prefer you to the awkward, floppy tender danglings that the boys deal with. I mean, I just can't even imagine always having to two foot jump with my knees apart! :shit:

OMG KB is so edumacational

I agree
Glad I ain't got one

[rainman]

Notice that the posts disagreeing with me are by men who bring it all down to sex and their "right" to "screw" any female they can conquer..?

Not true. I disagree with you on several things and don't agree with the statement above.


If we are equal, why are men bigger, stronger, tougher when they don't need to be?

I know, I sound like a 4 year old - they are always asking "Why?", but isn't that how scientific discoveries are made? Why? How? Who? I seek to stimulate the mind rather than merely accepting what is just because it is. If we can answer why things are as they are, won't we really find a lot more?

We aren't equal. The reasons why (gained after a fair bit of study of evolution and related disciplines) are given in the posts above. Asking "Why?" is indeed great for scientific discovery, but you have to be open to consider the answer, too!

Another good scientific question is "OK, how could I break that?"


Let's look at some of the science.....

I'm confused, none of that significantly contradicts the science given earlier in the thread.


There's a lot that could be said about this topic, but the basics are just that - simple. The differences between men and women largely come down to the established roles they used to play in earlier times...
Men used to hunt, wage war and protect against those seeking to do the same.
Women used to forage, keep the household /cave, whatever/ and give birth and raise the kids.
Hence men are stronger, faster, physically tougher, have better spatial orientation, can hear certain sounds better than women etc...
Women are more sensitive to certain parts of the visible light spectrum (red - berries), can hear certain other sounds better (crying babies) and arguably have better social skills (empathy etc..)

The interesting part for me personally is, how these predetermined traits and "modes of operation" often don't serve us well in modern society. And how, among other things, we are selectively breeding out the traits that are really important for the long term survival of society. But that is almost another whole new topic.

Yup, you're on to it. Our modern life and diet is not what we evolved to suit, and we have changed too much too quickly. But we are today what we evolved to be back then. Easy.


How confusing to be human...how about forget the intricacies of the human make-up and enjoy living. Make the most of every day and every opportunity you are presented with, if it doesn't go the way you would like then,move on.

Absolutely, we're a weird lot. I like your advice, which I'd state as "be fully present, here and now", but introspection can be fun too. An unexamined life is not worth living.

[mashman]

isn't it all to do with the body's chemistry and it's genetics? Chromosomes, hormonal balances (and vice verse) and mental pathways going a huge way to determining what and who we are as well as how we think and act... try living with a woman who's just go onto the contraceptive injection, that 3 month thing... the chemicals and hormones, in general, seem to drive mood (this is ONLY MY observation)... the way we fuel ourselves also seems to be a mood changer, what we eat, what we drink etc... The dominance seems to be societal, inherited from the monkeys, but that's changed over the last 100 years or so with women being given the right to vote/express themselves without the cencures of the male dominated hierarchy...

[SS90]

some of us actually have been taken for a right royal ride by the male species.

Face it, we're all the same but we're all different.



(or ride your bike)

Actually, yes, I must admit, It would have been correct to say that Women are not alone in this behaviour, but, in truth, they are better at hiding it than men.

If any one is wondering, I'm not airing some deep emotional scars on this, just writing observations and experiences.

If any one is interested, such behaviour is more prevalent in Europe than anywhere else in my experience.

It is really sad, back in NZ I have a good friend that is "whipped" by every girlfriend (one is now his wife), who treats him like property, and for years I wondered why (If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny actually), and the best I can come up with is that he let's it happen to himself, (every girl for the 20 odd years I have known him) and the natural instinct of humans takes over (get an inch, take a mile)......

In NZ, since we have agencies specifically set up to stop "Male on Female violence", we are constantly bombarded with "examples of male violence", but you never hear about the other way round (not so much physical, but mental abuse is really common)....about 15 years ago when I was still in my apprenticeship, I was required to deliver a new motorcycle to an address in Christchurch.

It was a nice big house in a pretty good suburb, I knocked on the door, and the meakest man you will ever see in your life opened the door, the person to contact was a woman, and I was led in through a nice, clean house, to a room with 5 more men, with similar demeanour, and then upstairs to a really friendly woman, who I delivered the keys and explained the bike.

Curiosity got the better of me, and I asked what this place was (she wouldn't tell me), and I eventually, years later found out that it was actually a "men refuge" type set up where men who have been physically, emotionally and financially abused by their female partners come to live.

These guy where pitiful, and I sometimes still feel sadness for these demasculated guys.

Someone said to me that some women treat some men like that, because they where abused by men when they where young girls, and "take it out" on men in later life.

Two wrongs make a right?

[Genie]

oh dear....

[Forest]

Why pay for a cow when you can get the milk for free?

I've been in long-term relationships in the past, but I have no desire to ever do so again. My life has become inestimably better as a result.

[Edbear]

Why pay for a cow when you can get the milk for free?

I've been in long-term relationships in the past, but I have no desire to ever do so again. My life has become inestimably better as a result.

You're very young, right...?

[kit]

I'd disagree that woman are emotionally weaker...... more men committ suicide than woman, most of the time because of an inabitity to cope with the reality of something that has happened in their life.

[imdying]

Brutal reality but a fair point.

[Edbear]

I'd disagree that woman are emotionally weaker...... more men committ suicide than woman, most of the time because of an inabitity to cope with the reality of something that has happened in their life.

This is a modern problem and suicide by the sexes is that more men commit suicide, but more women attempt it. Women attempt it usually, but not always, as a cry for help, men do it because they intend to kill themselves. Depression is a complex study and I have had extensive experience and study in this field.

My OP was more to so with the "Why?" than the "what" of the differences between men and women. The fact that men ans women are so different is clear, but what is behind the differences is the question.

[kit]

Not all people whom committ suicide suffer from clinical depression, a lot of it is circumstancial. Take the person out of the circumstance and the persons attitude to life changes...

Why the difference between men and woman? Maybe you should have been an anthropologist.

[Edbear]

Not all people whom committ suicide suffer from clinical depression, a lot of it is circumstancial. Take the person out of the circumstance and the persons attitude to life changes...

Why the difference between men and woman? Maybe you should have been an anthropologist.

With teenagers particularly, you will often if not always, find that when their "whole life is ruined" and they "just want to die!", there will be one particular issue that they cannot deal with and if you help fix that, their "whole life" is much better and they are happy again.

Suicide is linked to depression as it requires the typical thought processes from depression. Many women threaten suicide, but are not clinically depressed, as a cry for help and understanding and an alert person can usually tell the difference. Consolation and care works in these cases, whereas depression leading to suicide is very hard to deal with and requires professional help.

I am interested in anthropology and I have spent years studying life. My purpose in posting the thread is to provoke thought and find out how others view life and in particular human life. We spend much of our lives simply going through the motions and with our minds and eyes closed, thereby missing out on much richness and awe in wonder at how life on Earth functions. Our relationships are constrained and lack the fulfillment they could otherwise enjoy by literally stopping to smell the flowers. When was the last time you bent down to smell a rose, paused to follow the flight of a bee, lay on your back in the grass and gazed up at the stars? By losing our childish perspectives and ceasing to ask "Why?", we miss much of the joy of life and living.

When did you last sit down with your wife, husband, mother, father, brother or sister and really listen to them? Hear their story?

[kit]

Many men also use suicide as a form of emotional blackmail.....I have first hand experience at it....my eyes aren't closed. There are a lot of interesting people in the world with a lot of knowlege to contribute, and impart, but i think that experiencing life and learning through experience is the best teacher. You will find like minded people attract like minded people...or maybe there are lessons to be learned so you attract the people that teach them to you, and you evolve as a person individually.

[Banditbandit]

When did you last sit down with your wife, husband, mother, father, brother or sister and really listen to them? Hear their story?

Tried that once. I went to sleep. When I woke up she hit me with the pan and I had a black eye for ages ... hurt when I tried to pull on my helmet ...

[Banditbandit]

These two pixs sum up, for me, the essential difference between men and woman ...

http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/8966269.gif


http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/8788194.jpg

[Edbear]

Many men also use suicide as a form of emotional blackmail.....I have first hand experience at it....my eyes aren't closed. There are a lot of interesting people in the world with a lot of knowlege to contribute, and impart, but i think that experiencing life and learning through experience is the best teacher. You will find like minded people attract like minded people...or maybe there are lessons to be learned so you attract the people that teach them to you, and you evolve as a person individually.

You're not wrong, of course. Both sexes can use EB very effectively. My wife uses it when she wants to play on my laptop because hers won't play a particular game she likes... I can feel the vibes from her and I know my time is up... :laugh:

Seriously though, men are particularly skilled at EB as evidenced by the number of women who remain in abusive relationships and go back again and again to the monster. Such women need a lot of help and support to break free where they can come to realise the power they were under.


Tried that once. I went to sleep. When I woke up she hit me with the pan and I had a black eye for ages ... hurt when I tried to pull on my helmet ...

LOL!!! Done that once. I started snoring... :yes: She has forgiven me... :innocent:

[Forest]

You're very young, right...?

Mid thirties.

[Edbear]

These two pixs sum up, for me, the essential difference between men and woman ...

http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/8966269.gif


http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/8788194.jpg

Well it works for me... :shutup:

[Edbear]

Mid thirties.

Same age as my son. He's been through a bad marriage and is divorced and is rather gun-shy these days. However casual realtionships don't work for your long term happiness and become empty and unfulfilling. You find yourself just using women after a while. BEtter to look for and find someone you like and can spend time with as a friend and soul-mate.

I've been married 32 years, brought up three kids, two of them married, and speak from experience. My marriage, while solid and happy today, has been through tough times and I don't give myself all the credit for its longevity, but the benefits of sticking it out and working on it far outweigh those times when you wanted to walk away. Now, my family is as close as one could be and my wife and I are inseperable. NO criticsm of anyone who has had to walk away, (as I said, my son is divorced and he went beyond what most would have to resolve the problems), as I do not know the circumstances and it takes two to make it work, but from my exprerience, if you have a good partner, fight to keep them and grow with them.

[Banditbandit]

Same age as my son. He's been through a bad marriage and is divorced and is rather gun-shy these days. However casual realtionships don't work for your long term happiness and become empty and unfulfilling.

How's that ? I've never had a casual relationship long enough to find it unfulfilling ... :yes:

[Edbear]

How's that ? I've never had a casual relationship long enough to find it unfulfilling ... :yes:

LOL!!! Well the other thing to consider is that NZ is right up there in the STD stakes and unwanted pregnancies.

[Fatt Max]

Actually they do, which raises another question. Why are men's outside and women's inside...? :mellow:

Because God was a woman, only a woman would do that....

I assume you are talking about jandals, Mrs Max always brings hers in, I leave mine by the front door.....

[Edbear]

Because God was a woman, only a woman would do that....

I assume you are talking about jandals, Mrs Max always brings hers in, I leave mine by the front door.....

:blink: .........

[munterk6]

" Wasn't sure which forum to post this in " Quote....
uhh how about the pointless drivel one?
Kiwi women have ugly faces, fat guts, smell bad, and really bad attitudes towards the Kiwi bloke.
Kiwi men are spineless whimps that cower in the presence of women.
See, simple. :yes:

[Winston001]

My OP was more to so with the "Why?" than the "what" of the differences between men and women. The fact that men ans women are so different is clear, but what is behind the differences is the question.

Ed - I respect and admire your sincerity. Good for you raising an interesting topic.

Respectfully, I think clear and cogent answers have already been given above by SS and Rainman among others. May I suggest you read Richard Dawkins "The Ancestors Tale". It is an update on The Selfish Gene which was written 3 decades earlier. He may not be correct on every point but this later book has solid scientific references. The only doubt I have is that genes (a molecule of amino acids) actually desire to be continually expressed ie. want to survive into the future. That's a big leap.

And I repeat - evolutionary psychology answers all of your questions. :D

[Winston001]

Seriously though, men are particularly skilled at EB as evidenced by the number of women who remain in abusive relationships and go back again and again to the monster. Such women need a lot of help and support to break free where they can come to realise the power they were under.




No no no. Look underneath. The typical woman who bonds to an abusive man had an abusive father whom she loved but was desperately hurt by. She is trying to repair her child-hood experience by shaping a father-symbol into a good man. Its so common and equally sad. But occasionally it works out.

[Edbear]

No no no. Look underneath. The typical woman who bonds to an abusive man had an abusive father whom she loved but was desperately hurt by. She is trying to repair her child-hood experience by shaping a father-symbol into a good man. Its so common and equally sad. But occasionally it works out.

I very much doubt this. In the case of my eldest daughter, she married a very charming young man who showed himself to be a caring, witty and intelligent person. The day after their wedding, the monster emerged. He had won his prize and she was a possession to do with as he pleased. He was an alcoholic and drug user who had hidden this side of himself from his family, and from us.

It was staggering to me to witness how such abusers act and speak and it was hard for me to understand how my daughter could go back to him time and again. It wasn't until I came home to find her hiding in my closet that I realised how serious the situation was and I forbade her to go back to him. He would have killed her if she had stayed with him. To cut a very long and sad story short, she is now happily remarried to a very good man and has given us our first grandchild and is now pregnant with our second.

Abusers are often kind and charming to snare their victims who are bewildered that such a winderful person could behave the way they do. EB then becomes the weapon by which the abuser keeps his victim under his control. My daughter was brought up in an atmosphere of unconditional love in a very close family and I was certainly as far from being an abusive father as it is possible to get.

[Banditbandit]

I very much doubt this. In the case of my eldest daughter, she married a very charming young man who showed himself to be a caring, witty and intelligent person. The day after their wedding, the monster emerged. He had won his prize and she was a possession to do with as he pleased. He was an alcoholic and drug user who had hidden this side of himself from his family, and from us.

It was staggering to me to witness how such abusers act and speak and it was hard for me to understand how my daughter could go back to him time and again. It wasn't until I came home to find her hiding in my closet that I realised how serious the situation was and I forbade her to go back to him. He would have killed her if she had stayed with him. To cut a very long and sad story short, she is now happily remarried to a very good man and has given us our first grandchild and is now pregnant with our second.

Abusers are often kind and charming to snare their victims who are bewildered that such a winderful person could behave the way they do. EB then becomes the weapon by which the abuser keeps his victim under his control. My daughter was brought up in an atmosphere of unconditional love in a very close family and I was certainly as far from being an abusive father as it is possible to get.

Me, I wouldn't have been amazed at how often she went back to him .. I would have taken him on a "bonding day" and he would have never come back ...

[kit]

I very much doubt this. In the case of my eldest daughter, she married a very charming young man who showed himself to be a caring, witty and intelligent person. The day after their wedding, the monster emerged. He had won his prize and she was a possession to do with as he pleased. He was an alcoholic and drug user who had hidden this side of himself from his family, and from us.

It was staggering to me to witness how such abusers act and speak and it was hard for me to understand how my daughter could go back to him time and again. It wasn't until I came home to find her hiding in my closet that I realised how serious the situation was and I forbade her to go back to him. He would have killed her if she had stayed with him. To cut a very long and sad story short, she is now happily remarried to a very good man and has given us our first grandchild and is now pregnant with our second.



Abusers are often kind and charming to snare their victims who are bewildered that such a winderful person could behave the way they do. EB then becomes the weapon by which the abuser keeps his victim under his control. My daughter was brought up in an atmosphere of unconditional love in a very close family and I was certainly as far from being an abusive father as it is possible to get.


Not a nice situation, most guys like this have a massive inferiority complex which breeds jealousy and control..... dangerous situation. Glad your girl came out of it ok :D

[Edbear]

Me, I wouldn't have been amazed at how often she went back to him .. I would have taken him on a "bonding day" and he would have never come back ...

I had a few offers to "take care" of him. The Police were great! He came at me once but backed down when I didn't flinch and told him what was going to happen if he tried to hit me... He's a coward as abuser's are. They pick on the defenseless. He was abusive to the animals as well, which is a sign now recognised as a precurser to violence towards women. Space doesn't permit the telling of the full story, but suffice to say he is well out of teh picture today. My daughter and son-in-law celebrated their 6th Anniversary in March, and Ben, her husband has our respect for the way he took her on and supported her through her recovery. He's a good young man!


Not a nice situation, most guys like this have a massive inferiority complex which breeds jealousy and control..... dangerous situation. Glad your girl came out of it ok :D

Most do, certainly, but in Matthew's case, the ex., he was used to getting his own way and getting away with whatever he did. However, more than that he had a cruel streak nurtured by alcohol and drugs and a violent temper. I didn't see in him an inferiority complex, but certainly total selfishness.

It's amazing how many do suffer an inferiority complex which comes out as putting others down.

[Winston001]

....The day after their wedding, the monster emerged. He had won his prize and she was a possession....


Abusers are often kind and charming to snare their victims who are bewildered that such a winderful person could behave the way they do.

Glad your daughter found her way out of that awful situation but only with your strength and help.

I suggest you are making a couple of mistakes in reasoning. Firstly don't attribute general behaviours to personal situations. There is no one-size fits all. I agree your daughters experience wasn't trying to repair her paternal relationship.

I suspect she was dealing with a socio-path (psychopath) because your description is straight out of a text book.

Secondly, women go back to abusers for complex reasons. Your daughter was confronted with a mistake of her own judgement of the perfect guy, and naturally tried time and again to get that good guy back. Its hard to admit she could be so wrong.

Other women saw their mums treated the same way so think its normal. Yet others consider abuse to be attention and become grateful for it. And then there are the women who dislike themselves and believe they deserve the abuse.

But overall daughters look for their fathers and try to heal/change the things they needed as a child. This isn't deep stuff although its hard to accept.

[Edbear]

Glad your daughter found her way out of that awful situation but only with your strength and help.

I suggest you are making a couple of mistakes in reasoning. Firstly don't attribute general behaviours to personal situations. There is no one-size fits all. I agree your daughters experience wasn't trying to repair her paternal relationship.

I suspect she was dealing with a socio-path (psychopath) because your description is straight out of a text book.

Secondly, women go back to abusers for complex reasons. Your daughter was confronted with a mistake of her own judgement of the perfect guy, and naturally tried time and again to get that good guy back. Its hard to admit she could be so wrong.

Other women saw their mums treated the same way so think its normal. Yet others consider abuse to be attention and become grateful for it. And then there are the women who dislike themselves and believe they deserve the abuse.

But overall daughters look for their fathers and try to heal/change the things they needed as a child. This isn't deep stuff although its hard to accept.

To a large extent, I understand your points, however I have, as a result of my daughter's experience, done a considerable amount of study on the subject, esp. as to finding out why women do go back. What was also unsettling was that I got flack from all sides, including my wife for a while, over the fact that I would not let her go back. Few seemed to appreciate the danger my daughter was in and I was on my own for a while in making my stand to keep her safe.

Abuser's use of EB includes outpourings of remorse and promises to change and turning in the charm again anf again until the victim returns. Matthew even agreed to attend anger management courses as directing by the court. Each time she returned it was only a matter of days, even hours before the violence and abuse, (both emotional and physical), atarted again.

Fathers and mothers here, may appreciate what it does to you to come home and find your daughter hiding in your closet, crying and shaking and begging you not to let him find her. Yet even after this, she would have gone back, so damaged was she emotionally.

It is a very complex subject and suffice to say, it has taken years and a huge amount of support from both family and professionals to heal her and allow her to live again. Victims must be given full access to professional help as well as the unrelenting support of their families.

My son was amazing and I know he was a literal body guard for his sister and if Matthew had tried to hurt her again, I don't know how far my son would have gone. I do know I wouoldn't want to be on the receiving end of my son's anger, he's built!