250 production racing.

[FROSTY]

I'm looking for feedback from you lot on a new (actually no so new ) racing class for NZ road racing.
250 Production.

I believe we need to reintroduce a 250 production class to road racing
The bikes I'm thinking of are twin cylinder 4 strokes.
1) a gsx250 or zzr250 or Vtr250 or The Hyu sung (sp) are well under 7 grand to buy new.. so the cost is (relatively ) low.-and keep in mind that those on a budget could buy second hand
2) By being production --Ie no modifications allowed at all.It would be a cheap class to run in and the cheque book racers would have no advantage.
3) Tyres would be control brand/type.By having control tyres--and the event being sponsered by a tyre maker again the big buck guys have no way of gaining. -no slicks just say as an example all must run GPR70's this season. -There are good comercial reasons for an importer to support this as long as the tyre isn't flavour of the month.
4) by keeping it to 250cc the speeds are relatively slow which is perfect for a novice racer but everybodys in the same boat so it encourages close racing
5) Commercially speaking the manufacturers have a lot to gain by having a bike that joe bloggs can buy brand new out winning races That hopefully could mean the manufacturers getting behind the whole deal.
6) exposed front sprocket compulsury -making it very difficult to run different gearing.
7) the zero mods would not allow after market air filters,cdi boxes lightened cranks etc but would allow fibreglass replica fairings. crash bungs,stock height,position handlebars,exact copy footpeg brackets (No rearsets)
Removal of road gear would be allowed to the point it still looks like the road bike No fancy lightweight tail units etc.
Suspension would be stock components allowing only fork oil changes
Exhaust system must be stock and no jetting changes or special air filters allowed.
8)WITH the support of the importers/manufactureres elligable bikes would be named at begining of the season. Only those bikes will be allowed in the class This will prevent homologation (sp) specials being brought in that are truck loads faster than everybody elses bikes -and at 600 supersports pricing to purchase.
9) scrutineering MUST be no more complicated than any other class

The whole idea is a safeish ,cheapish class for beginner racers and those on a limited race budget.It would produce very close racing in that it would be rider ability rather than trick handling or extra HP that wins the races.
20 years ago right up to 10 years ago 250 production (2 strokes) was the biggest class and one of the most hotly contended.
Im talking feilds of 40 or more bikes at the nationals.
To the point I think we had to have A and B grade at some meetings to cope with the number of entrys.
Feedback please

[John]

Yup I would dearly love to see this class back up and going I would defiantly take up the racing when I get my full - with the amount of money I've spent on the ZXR I'd love to be able to keep it and use it for racing.

As you said It would be a cheap racing class since there are so many parts flying around for them, would make racing a lot more accessible.

Great Idea Frosty.

[FROSTY]

Yup I would dearly love to see this class back up and going I would defiantly take up the racing when I get my full - with the amount of money I've spent on the ZXR I'd love to be able to keep it and use it for racing.

As you said It would be a cheap racing class since there are so many parts flying around for them, would make racing a lot more accessible.

Great Idea Frosty.
John--the idea is to limit it to 250 twins--why you ask??
Keep the HP low and ensure the bikes are available new. To the point that the top 3 bikes on the day would be dyno tested to ensure they aint putting out more HP than the other bikes.
Think of this --Advert inb the paper to bring spectators to a club race round
Whilst you're watching the close racing get your bike dyno'd for only xxx$
It would help bring in the crowds so sorely missed

[John]

John--the idea is to limit it to 250 twins--why you ask??
Keep the HP low and ensure the bikes are available new. To the point that the top 3 bikes on the day would be dyno tested to ensure they aint putting out more HP than the other bikes.
Think of this --Advert inb the paper to bring spectators to a club race round
Whilst you're watching the close racing get your bike dyno'd for only xxx$
It would help bring in the crowds so sorely missed
Sorry I noticed you said GSX and thought of the older ones (R's) - sorry Still think its a good idea, I do realise that the inline 4's and such are better off in with the 2strokes so yes I will shutup.
I had a twin and I loved it they would be Ideal for racing they would be putting out a very low hp around (30max) and would insure that skill was of a great level - I still would join in with the racing if it came about, plenty of cheap twins around.

But would love to see dedicated (dedicated being the key word:whistle:) open production 250 class like AU and US..

[Coyote]

Sounds like a good idea. Allowing fibreglass fairings is a brilliant idea, unlike only being allowed them as replacements so your forced to destroy your originals i.e what I have done :pinch:

[FROSTY]

john there already is -the vmcc runs 250 4 stokes in with the 150 streetstocks. Also the PMCC had a 250 4 stroke class in their series.
I really pushed to have it allowed but noone entered

[HDTboy]

I'd like to be able to race My 4 banger in a production class, or am I just being a silly n00b in saying that

[dhunt]

It sounds like a good idea, as long as the bikes are kept in production. The biggest problems with 250's is the price markup on them. What about including things like the goose etc in as well and making it under xx hp instead of under xx cc?

I would love to get into some sort of racing next year as I should have a bit more time & $$ to play with. So will keep an eye on how this progresses. As I'm wanting to maximise the fun level while minimising the $$ needed.

[FROSTY]

Sounds like a good idea. Allowing fibreglass fairings is a brilliant idea, unlike only being allowed them as replacements so your forced to destroy your originals i.e what I have done :pinch:
Nope--the idea is to prevent as much damage as possible whilst retaining the stock look of the bike.
The advantage there is that given there are say only 3 bikes elligable for the class then economy of scale would make after market fairings shit loads cheaper.

[John]

I'd like to be able to race My 4 banger in a production class, or am I just being a silly n00b in saying that
Dont worry I share the same dream.

But not to kill the thread Would you HAVE to keep the fairings on or can you be naked :ride:

edit: I answered my own question VTR's HYSOSHITS are neked :rofl:

[dveus]

I like the idea, race on sunday, hopefully ride it to work on monday sounds good to me.

[FROSTY]

Dont worry I share the same dream.

But not to kill the thread Would you HAVE to keep the fairings on or can you be naked :ride:
I'd suggest we would revert back to the lold 250 proddie rules-If ya wanna take the fairing off--Your call Provided you have a 280x230 number board on the front. (MNZ rule for race numbers)
Personally I would fit glass fairings -when you only have 40 odd HP to play with you sure dont wanna loose any of its effectiveness
Mind you I recall on the south island rounds of the nationals in 87 or 86 it was so bloody windy a lot of guys took their fairings off they were getting such huge side gusts.

[justsomeguy]

Where do I sign??

[FROSTY]

I'd like to be able to race My 4 banger in a production class, or am I just being a silly n00b in saying that
Again pacific club and Vmcc ran a 250 4 stroke class in with the 150 strokers last year.
Look heres the deal -If I can get 6 of you blokes on ya 250 4 strokes who will turn up at EVERY round of Pmcc racing at Taupo I'm 100% certain you will have your own class -mixed in with the 150 strokers for the actual racing

[Kickaha]

Gearing should be open,as you'd want to change it track to track and the GSX would require different ratios to the Hyosung to the VTR

[justsomeguy]

Hmmmm.........

When I manage to get a decent job - hopefully soon. I will be in.

[FROSTY]

It sounds like a good idea, as long as the bikes are kept in production. The biggest problems with 250's is the price markup on them. What about including things like the goose etc in as well and making it under xx hp instead of under xx cc?

I would love to get into some sort of racing next year as I should have a bit more time & $$ to play with. So will keep an eye on how this progresses. As I'm wanting to maximise the fun level while minimising the $$ needed.
You answered your own question. :niceone:
250's are sought after so there is a ready market for them second hand.
So what? End of season it makes selling your race bike easy.Its a bike capacity that anyone can ride.
I disagree that a 250 NEW is more expensive than say a 400 or a 600 which is pretty amazing given they cost just as much to build.
If Im wrong here please tell me
Keep in mind that one driving force is getting suzuki etc behind it so it must be currently available models.
The HP rule is a really good one though -just really hard to police.

Originally Posted by dveus
I like the idea, race on sunday, hopefully ride it to work on monday sounds good to me.


or even ride it to the track -pull the lights off -race it then ride home -easy racing. aye??

[FROSTY]

I like the idea, race on sunday, hopefully ride it to work on monday sounds good to me.
or even ride it to the track -pull the lights off -race it then ride home -easy racing. aye??

[FROSTY]

Gearing should be open,as you'd want to change it track to track and the GSX would require different ratios to the Hyosung to the VTR
Hear what you're saying but NO -its a case of KISS.
dya remember the slippery slope 250 proddy went down in the rgv days?
First gearing changes allowed ,then steering dampers,then slicks (so 2 sets of rims needed) then jetting changes allowed -It all just became a friggin nightmatre to police and to be honest the guys winning were on all but full out and out race bikes -Not to say they werent bloody good riders -but it killed the class.
Keep in mind if noone can change gearing then we're all in the same boat.

[Sutage]

What bikes would be eligible for entering? Ive noticed myself riding a bit faster now im getting more confident, looking at buying a new bike and would love to give minor racing a go

[justsomeguy]

What bikes would be eligible for entering? Ive noticed myself riding a bit faster now im getting more confident, looking at buying a new bike and would love to give minor racing a go

All 4 stroke twins and names have been mentioned several times in this thread.

[FROSTY]

A minor glitch is that suzuki have just stopped importing the gsx250 bugger it.

[SPORK]

A minor glitch is that suzuki have just stopped importing the gsx250 bugger it.
Why o' why don't any of the big four make Inline-four 250s any more? Modern CBR250RRs, ZXR250s or GSX-R 250s all with fresh stylings would kick so much ass!

[N4CR]

Why o' why don't any of the big four make Inline-four 250s any more? Modern CBR250RRs, ZXR250s or GSX-R 250s all with fresh stylings would kick so much ass!

I asked that at a bike shop and got told they would cost roughly $9000 to bring back those sort of bikes back onto the once deflated market... now it has picked up a little apparently.

Would you want to learn on a 9k bike that is only 250cc :D ?

[FROSTY]

the whole idea though is simplicity as well as speeds being kept down. Id expect a top speed of around 170 km/h

[dhunt]

What sort of cost would you think it would be to get a bike and get it sorted it for this "class"? Obviouslly the lower the cost the more people would be willing to participate/join in.

[Ivan]

Ok anyone reading this Street Stock means streetstock I know of a few bikes which aint standered

[Kickaha]

Ok anyone reading this Street Stock means streetstock I know of a few bikes which aint standered

protest the machine or shut up,simple isn't it?

[gav]

Stock standard 250 twins road racing? guess it'll be a good time to hit the hotdog stands I suppose......who the ferk is going to watch that? boring....and the noise or lack of it, 6 bikes strung out lapping at 2 20 around ruapuna, yawn....just another class clogging up the programme..... can't see the point, why not a 150 class? or scooters?? :niceone:

[That Guy]

I'm very keen for a proddie class - I think it should be set up to replace F3 in due time. As another idea check out this: www.minitwins.co.uk - worth a try?

[Ivan]

protest the machine or shut up,simple isn't it?


Im not winging just stating that it wrecks the class why do you have a guilty concionse

[Kickaha]

Im not winging just stating that it wrecks the class why do you have a guilty concionse

I don't race in that class,but if you "know" some one is cheating and do nothing about it you're as guilty as they are

[FROSTY]

The funny thing is when we last had proddy racing some guys were clearly on cheater bikes. It really diddnt make stuff all difference -it was like -There goes frosty and KK on their "cough" production bikes.
And now were into the real racing.
With feilds of 40-50 bikes noone really cared less--unless they were chasing a national title.

[nsrpaul]

mmmm , prody class , i'd be keen

[gav]

The funny thing is when we last had proddy racing some guys were clearly on cheater bikes. It really diddnt make stuff all difference -it was like -There goes frosty and KK on their "cough" production bikes.
And now were into the real racing.
With feilds of 40-50 bikes noone really cared less--unless they were chasing a national title.
He He, mate of mine bought a RG250mk3 Gamma like this
http://wwwsvc01.ninja.ev1.bikepics.net/pics/suzuki-rg250-85-bikepics-203986.jpg
from Wellington Motorcycles many many years ago, it was claimed to be Bob Toomey and Robert Holdens practice 250 proddy bike. Damn it was fast, had some , umm interesting carb and airbox, and exhaust mods etc though as well (for a production bike :nono: )

[chaos rider]

well just waiting on some fairing changes and good tyres the chaos hyo is ready to go..

this class is cheap as chips and much easier for a first timer to get into then the other classes out there. all i can say is when and where

[oyster]

WHEN: King of Levels and King of Ruapuna 2009 Starting 18th July
WHERE: Levels and Ruapuna

250 twin production 4stroke will run in Streetstock. We want to get on with it straight away to trial this bike spec and then when the rules come in on Jan 1st they'll be all sorted.

[scracha]

Stock standard 250 twins road racing? guess it'll be a good time to hit the hotdog stands I suppose......

Your loss. Watching 30 x 250 twins slipstreaming each other to get every last bit of speed should lead to good close racing.

[Morcs]

But the new 250s now are poo. Not just the power.
The chassis, geometry and suspension are all budget.

Would upgrading suspension be allowed?

The IL4's are somewhat designed for the track, these new learner bikes simply arent - its the same as suggesting say, a V-strom class...

Though I totally agree with the concept frosty.

[Squiggles]

MNZ trawling through your old posts Frosty? :lol:

[Kittyhawk]

So for a newbie racer what would it involve....


Buy bike 250cc

Strip unwanted accessories off, indicators etc

Pay membership

Buy tire warmers

Have licence - (any licence or has to be full?)

Attend race meets - go hard

Have spare parts and spare tires

Another person as pit crew

Is there a checklist that can be posted up??

Would it be like the drags at Meremere? anyone can rock on up pay fee to race and pose, pass scrutineering and away ya go?:Punk:

[CookMySock]

Just the differences in suspension and curb weight between these bikes will make it into one-bike race immediately, so why not do that to begin with?

Why not just race Hyo 250's ? They are cheap to buy and cheap to crash and fix, and they have a strong frame so you can screw up real bad and still have a bike.

Steve

[FROSTY]

Holey moley-4 years on and its happening --plant a little seed.........:innocent:

[Robert Taylor]

I asked that at a bike shop and got told they would cost roughly $9000 to bring back those sort of bikes back onto the once deflated market... now it has picked up a little apparently.

Would you want to learn on a 9k bike that is only 250cc :D ?

It costs just about as much to make a 250cc inline four as a 1000cc inline four because its the same amount of components. So they have to cut lots of corners and I would say manufacturers margins are extremely thin. Little wonder that market sector only really survives in markets where there are graduated licensing laws and LOTs of customers.
You really also have to wonder about the wisdom of racing what are in most instances commuter bikes, they are not made for racing and in the long or even short term they are fragile. SV650s are a case in point.
There already is an entry level class of affordable proper racing bikes, 125cc. Great class, great racing and it teaches the riders and crew more skills than just riding.

[Robert Taylor]

Just the differences in suspension and curb weight between these bikes will make it into one-bike race immediately, so why not do that to begin with?

Why not just race Hyo 250's ? They are cheap to buy and cheap to crash and fix, and they have a strong frame so you can screw up real bad and still have a bike.

Steve

No, one make classes are a big yawn and racing NEEDS all manufacturers to be interested.

[SS90]

It costs just about as much to make a 250cc inline four as a 1000cc inline four because its the same amount of components. So they have to cut lots of corners and I would say manufacturers margins are extremely thin. Little wonder that market sector only really survives in markets where there are graduated licensing laws and LOTs of customers.
You really also have to wonder about the wisdom of racing what are in most instances commuter bikes, they are not made for racing and in the long or even short term they are fragile. SV650s are a case in point.
There already is an entry level class of affordable proper racing bikes, 125cc. Great class, great racing and it teaches the riders and crew more skills than just riding.

You make some valid points there Robert, but I have to disagree with you doubts on the wisdom of racing these bikes.

I am personally a huge fan of 125GP racing, and agree that it is an exciting class, entry level or otherwise, however, the Importers don't give a brass razoo about these machines, as 1) they don't import them 2) Racers NEVER buy their parts from the dealers (much MUCH cheaper to buy from Aussie, or wherever), and as such, they don't care.

And, like it or not, as nice as they look flying down the track, VERV VERY few spectators can tell the difference between a Honda, Yamaha, or Aprilia 125Gp bike (well, the Aprilia is the one that doesn't finish, so that's easy)

Simple.

However, they DO sell new 4 stroke twin cylinder bikes.

That is what the sport needs to do to prosper (in my opinion), create some BRAND IDENTITY with the machines, that way the bike buying public will be able to relate their purchase with competitive success......like they did in the 70's and 80's (the ninties less so)

What won on Sunday, the public purchased on Monday.

I concur that these machines are quite low spec, and there is not a hope in hell the latest 4 stroke twin would have even qualified the midfield of the old two stoke 250 production days, however, that was then, this is now. The world has changed and 250 production has alsol.

Just think back to the guys racing in the early eighties....... My god, 18 inch rims with tyres the width of a mouses pupic hair, frames made from macaroni elbows, 2 valve air cooled 4 stroke engines,Tyres with cool names like "Pirelli GORDONS"......... hang on a minute.....that was great racing!

It's just that we are all spoilt now with forks made from "unobtainium" ,rebound this compression that,radial nipples..... TYRE WARMERS.......(what the ?)......blah blah blah

Yup, the production 250 bikes of today are "low spec", then there is more onus on the rider.

Simple.

I am VERY excited at the opportunities this will open for the new breed of riders, not only the new class, but, if managed well, I believe that industry support would have a better chance of improving if people where actually racing what the importers where selling!

[Robert Taylor]

You make some valid points there Robert, but I have to disagree with you doubts on the wisdom of racing these bikes.

I am personally a huge fan of 125GP racing, and agree that it is an exciting class, entry level or otherwise, however, the Importers don't give a brass razoo about these machines, as 1) they don't import them 2) Racers NEVER buy their parts from the dealers (much MUCH cheaper to buy from Aussie, or wherever), and as such, they don't care.

And, like it or not, as nice as they look flying down the track, VERV VERY few spectators can tell the difference between a Honda, Yamaha, or Aprilia 125Gp bike (well, the Aprilia is the one that doesn't finish, so that's easy)

Simple.

However, they DO sell new 4 stroke twin cylinder bikes.

That is what the sport needs to do to prosper (in my opinion), create some BRAND IDENTITY with the machines, that way the bike buying public will be able to relate their purchase with competitive success......like they did in the 70's and 80's (the ninties less so)

What won on Sunday, the public purchased on Monday.

I concur that these machines are quite low spec, and there is not a hope in hell the latest 4 stroke twin would have even qualified the midfield of the old two stoke 250 production days, however, that was then, this is now. The world has changed and 250 production has alsol.

Just think back to the guys racing in the early eighties....... My god, 18 inch rims with tyres the width of a mouses pupic hair, frames made from macaroni elbows, 2 valve air cooled 4 stroke engines,Tyres with cool names like "Pirelli GORDONS"......... hang on a minute.....that was great racing!

It's just that we are all spoilt now with forks made from "unobtainium" ,rebound this compression that,radial nipples..... TYRE WARMERS.......(what the ?)......blah blah blah

Yup, the production 250 bikes of today are "low spec", then there is more onus on the rider.

Simple.

I am VERY excited at the opportunities this will open for the new breed of riders, not only the new class, but, if managed well, I believe that industry support would have a better chance of improving if people where actually racing what the importers where selling!

Yes indeed those are also very valid points, especially re manufacturer / distributor involvement.
What in part I was also trying to intimate is that we are in danger of having too many classes with a risk of diluting other fields. No easy answer..

[puddytat]

So for a newbie racer what would it involve....


Buy bike 250cc

Strip unwanted accessories off, indicators etc

Pay membership

Buy tire warmers

Have licence - (any licence or has to be full?)

Attend race meets - go hard

Have spare parts and spare tires

Another person as pit crew

Is there a checklist that can be posted up??

Would it be like the drags at Meremere? anyone can rock on up pay fee to race and pose, pass scrutineering and away ya go?:Punk:

Nah ,its not like the drags....
You'll need to be a member of a club,usually the track closest to you....
You'll also need to join MNZ & pay a fee to race there &,get your log book..
it will enable you to race at other tracks as well
Rules look like warmers wont/may not, be allowed.
You dont need any road license at all.
Theres more on the proposed? regulation on the MNZ site www.mnz.co.nz

Im keen...

[SS90]

Yes indeed those are also very valid points, especially re manufacturer / distributor involvement.
What in part I was also trying to intimate is that we are in danger of having too many classes with a risk of diluting other fields. No easy answer..

Yea, that really is a good point, a small country like NZ does sadly have to concede that we simply don't have the population to either supply full fields nor full spectator seats....... I always thought that when supermotard started getting some attention in NZ, the Large number of "off road" enthusiasts would be converted, and make supermotard the next big thing......

We did get a few conversions (James Smith for example), but I had anticipated much more.

I do remember the Halcion days of 250 Production of old, just think of how many guys started in that class (Slight,Crafar,Stroud,Clee,....and dozens more) I believe the only reason that the 250 production class thrived early on (eighties) was because of the competition between Yamaha and Suzuki, and to a lesser extent Honda and Kawasaki, in those days it seems the Brand was more important.

It would be very interesting if the importer somehow found a renewed drive in that area.... Like Ford Vs Holden for example........

It's not the public that decide how they are marketed to.....it's the Advertising companies that make the decisions where and how.

Teen stars (the sort of riders you would expect to race these machines) are significantly more appealing than someone in their 40's..........

A teenager being the face of a product that appeals to a bigger section of the market ( Teenagers and sub 25's) stands a much much better chance of capturing the money spending publics attention.

Andrew Stroud, sponsored by "Brother" (that is not an insult by the way,more power too him.....), but how many people below the age of 25 buy printers and faxes?

This "target demographic" buys Playstations,cell phones,clothes and other "consumables"

I believe that Companies who want to sell these products are HIGHLY more likely to spend some marketing dollars on a medium that appeals to this generation/demographic.

Printers and faxes for the 40 "somethings"........

Cell Phones and playstations for the sub 25's......

[oyster]

In the south, "entry level" is the training class, run 3 times a meeting exclusively for the intro of new riders in a well supervised, non race situation including coaching. After that is Young Junior Road Race, Miniture Road Race and Streetstock. The 250 twin fourstroke is part of Streetstock and has a good chance of introducing an aternative to the trusty but aging RG150.
Robert, 125GP is not "entry level" It is a complex and very expensive class that benefits the riders who have completed a thorough apprenticeship in Streetstock. Once a rider has mastered all the riding and technical matters of Streetstock, they do very well when they enter 125GP.

[FROSTY]

I think Oyster has hit the nail smack bang on the head here.
SS150 id a FANTASTIC entry level class with one problem
The bikes are now 10 years old.
The idea with SS250 or 250 production was to supercede the ageing fleet. BUT ALSO possibly be quick enough to not get lapped in the F3 races

[puddytat]

Re the proposed rules for this class, I see that you can change fork springs & oil, but theres no mention of emulators....so I assume that they aint allowed?

[chaos rider]

well im ready and waiting for oct 4th amcc round one just sending off for my licence tommorow and waiting for the entry forms to be posted up on the amcc page

[puddytat]

Im all set for the 4th Oct. too...MCC's Rnd 1 of King of Ruapuna.
BRING IT ON!!!