Serious question about police resources and equipment

[HenryDorsetCase]

In light of the fact that two po po were out doing their jobs today and got shot for their troubles, why THE HELL shouldn't they be strapped as a matter of course? Glock on the hip, shotguns in the car, and a decent anti ballistic vest?

Even two fucking muppets with a few pot plants and psychiatric trouble have a .22 and a .308 these days. These guys had their Taser (oh yeah, in the CAR!)

As a taxpayer, I am happy to fund this, providing the proper training at inception (and ongoing) is provided. My money would be better spent on this than that fucker who is on legal aid in prison getting $20k.

I dont often post what I really think, but this is one time I have.

Oh, and this prick that shot the police dog? Bullet in the head.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3913189/Officers-shot-dog-killed-in-Christchurch

[Meanie]

Have to agree with ya. Why should the people we pay to protect us be shot by scumbag low lifes?
If they started shooting back we would have less crowding in our jails and more money to educate our children and take care of the sick properly

[Quasievil]

Arm the police and give the crims a deterant, it worked in the cold war

[marty]

I would have thought the dog handler was carrying. Chch is a shower of shit these days. And leaving a taser in the car, after all the bullshit that has carried on over the last few years was either bad management (from above) or bad management (on their behalf).

And just an observation - it's interesting the age/experience of the cops who have recently seen the wrong end of a firearm. Maybe it's time to re-visit some Policing methods? I know many cops in the 20-year bracket, and I know how many of them police, and quite frankly, I'm getting concerned for their old-school (which 999/1000 times works well) ways in a meth-fuelled world

[Genie]

I saw pics of the fella they carted off...yep a right low life. My friends daughter lives two doors down from where it all went down. She's 20 and needless to say, she shat bricks. ffs, i hate what is going on in the world today...how can we stop it! Me, I have little patience for fuck tards that cause this kind of nonsense, he can spend the rest of his days in a 4x5 concrete room, as far as i'm concerned he lost all rights to be part of our community the moment he picked up that gun!

[scumdog]

, and I know how many of them police, and quite frankly, I'm getting concerned for their old-school (which 999/1000 times works well) ways in a meth-fuelled world

Concerns me too - and I'm old-school.

But I trust NOBODY out there when I am working.

[bogan]

liability is my guess, if cops don't have guns they don't have to deal with all the bs that goes with shooting a crim.

[Headbanger]

Cops are expendable.

[mashman]

shoulda left the dogs on him and walked away... but that's what happenes when someone won't take the consequences of illegal actions... it's only ever gonna get worse... not sure wether i believe in arming the street cops anymore...

[marty]

Concerns me too - and I'm old-school.

But I trust NOBODY out there when I am working.

good to hear.

[AllanB]

I'm with you on this one. I walked past a mufti parked by work today - 2004 Commy S model. Nice ride, but you'd think the police would be upgrading vehicles more than every 6 years as policy! Nah - Govt probably tells them you can easily get 300,000 plus out of one so don't sell until you kill it

The other thing - apparently it costs over $63,000 per annum to keep a prisoner in jail (info from Sensible Sentencing Trust) - surely in a cut and dry killing a little injection would be a preferred option, or am I just no PC enough for todays world?

[marty]

who heard the fucktard on the news say 'then the cops beat him up'

3 news reaches a new low reporting shit like that. they had video (which was great and would seem to condradict the 'beat up'), but ffs

[Genie]

I'm with you on this one. I walked past a mufti parked by work today - 2004 Commy S model. Nice ride, but you'd think the police would be upgrading vehicles more than every 6 years as policy! Nah - Govt probably tells them you can easily get 300,000 plus out of one so don't sell until you kill it

The other thing - apparently it costs over $63,000 per annum to keep a prisoner in jail (info from Sensible Sentencing Trust) - surely in a cut and dry killing a little injection would be a preferred option, or am I just no PC enough for todays world?


one has to be very careful on this...kill the bastard scenerio. IN today's episode, they know what happened..but in some instances what if they get it wrong..and the worn gman is killed for the sins of another. As much as I say, bring back hanging, you have to be 100% certain that the person in indeed guilty.

[davereid]

who heard the fucktard on the news say 'then the cops beat him up'

3 news reaches a new low reporting shit like that. they had video (which was great and would seem to condradict the 'beat up'), but ffs

They didn't beat him up. They set the second dog on him.

[Headbanger]

As much as I say, bring back hanging, you have to be 100% certain that the person in indeed guilty.

Why?

If you get it wrong, You get to hang two people.

200% of pure results.

Excellent.

[Headbanger]

In light of the fact that two po po were out doing their jobs today and got shot for their troubles, why THE HELL shouldn't they be strapped as a matter of course? Glock on the hip, shotguns in the car, and a decent anti ballistic vest?



Because their "job" is to protect us citizens, Not shoot us with their glocks.

And fuck me, we can't even trust em to not kill us with their cars, and you want them running around with the power to shoot people dead whenever their "judgment" dictates its a great time to fire off some hot lead....

[AllanB]

I'd be happy to put some stocks into Cathedral square once a month (on a Sunday after church maybe).
I suggest we put the most heinous offenders in them and sell rotten fruit and dry dog-shit to the public at a fair price so they can throw them at the crims. Win, win really, entertainment (Bob Parker could sell the TV rights and host the show), the public get to vent, the offenders get hurt and humiliated and it would raise some money for the city council to spend on fixing our friggen roads!

[scumdog]

, and you want them running around with the power to shoot people dead whenever their "judgment" dictates its a great time to fire off some hot lead....


Aw stop trolling - you know we can do that already...

[Quasievil]

Started a Facebook campaign for arming the police, thats what i believe needs to happen.
Join it if you want, if not then dont

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=132879930085890&v=wall#!/group.php?gid=132879930085890&ref=mf

[Headbanger]

Aw stop trolling - you know we can do that already...

In that case I'd like to nominate a few people.

[Headbanger]

Started a Facebook campaign for arming the police, thats what i believe needs to happen.
Join it if you want, if not then dont

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=132879930085890&v=wall#!/group.php?gid=132879930085890&ref=mf

Yeah, That'll work.

Start another one for world peace, and one to abolish famine, then we can knock off early and head down the pub for a pint.

[Quasievil]

Yeah, That'll work.

Start another one for world peace, and one to abolish famine, then we can knock off early and head down the pub for a pint.

I Cant do much as Im only one person, but I can do what I can bro, bag away

[dipshit]

liability is my guess, if cops don't have guns they don't have to deal with all the bs that goes with shooting a crim.

6 months paid leave...

I know cops that would love a good excuse to shoot somebody.

[Toaster]

who heard the fucktard on the news say 'then the cops beat him up'

3 news reaches a new low reporting shit like that. they had video (which was great and would seem to condradict the 'beat up'), but ffs

I am sure they were yelling out "stop resisting, stop resisting!!!" Yes the media comments leave a lot to be desired!

I hope the scumbag shooter gets more than the book thrown at him for his murder of the dog and attempted murder of the constables. Cops put up with a lot of crap for their megre wages. Including abuse from whinging speeders bleating on about speeding tickets they deserved anyway and have the gall and lack of spine to call them scum for doing their job. I'd like to see them line up for a job like that and see what they have to say then.

I really feel for the constable who not only got shot in the face but also lost his partner and friend the police dog.

[dipshit]

I think there will be more public outcry over this one because of the dog.

[PrincessBandit]

liability is my guess, if cops don't have guns they don't have to deal with all the bs that goes with shooting a crim.

Yep, every time the cops shoot someone there's a hue and cry from someone. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


I'd be happy to put some stocks into Cathedral square once a month (on a Sunday after church maybe).
I suggest we put the most heinous offenders in them and sell rotten fruit and dry dog-shit to the public at a fair price so they can throw them at the crims. Win, win really, entertainment (Bob Parker could sell the TV rights and host the show), the public get to vent, the offenders get hurt and humiliated and it would raise some money for the city council to spend on fixing our friggen roads!

Cool!! I'd be a starter for paying to throw rotten stuff and shit at them. Maybe for extra you could shove it in their faces, rub it through their hair (if they have any) etc.

**stuff like this brings out the worst in me......**

[98tls]

Theres no doubt that sooner or later there going to get them anyway so why do they persist in fucking about.Good old NZ is no longer good old NZ nor has it been that way for many years and coppers are pretty much at the mercy of every junked up piece of shit waiting to have an episode.This shit pisses me off so can only imagine how the cops involved feel not to mention the fact that the waste of space that did the shooting gets to sit in prison sucking air when a bullet at the scence would have saved everyone some hassle.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10658506

[breakaway]

No, don't give them guns. Some of these mouth breathing cops can barely handle their duties now, and you want to arm them? Getting shot is one less thing I have to worry about at a "routine traffic stop".

Search on google for all the "accidents" that the armed police have. "Accidents" where animals and people were murdered or received life changing injuries. And as you've seen with the U-Turn cop etc, they get away with a slap on the wrist because they're higher up than a standard citizen.

Edit: Here's one for you http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100514/NEWS02/5140348/0/ARCHIVES

Cop shot a motorcyclist in the spine during a routine traffic stop and paralyzed him. Reason? "I thought he had a weapon on him". There's a video, if you watch it, you can see clearly no attempt was made to reach for any weapon:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VH3wWVQZaq0&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VH3wWVQZaq0&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

[Maha]

Its an age old argument eh Mike...damned if they do and damned if they dont.
Personally, I say no to arming cops. Even if they had been armed yesterday, the outcome would probably have been the same, why? because they (the police) did not anticipate a firearm being used against them. If they did, then, and only then, would the outcome yesterday be different. It would have ben the AOS facing off, not two cops and a dog.

[98tls]

Actually wasnt a police dog "murdered " here,and no doubt the cop that was shot in the face will have "life changing injuries".As for the U-turn cop my opinions different than yours so yea i say arm them,tis not the cops fault we live in a pretty sick society why should they be at the mercy of every fuckhead that wants to shoot someone over a bit of dope?

[98tls]

Its an age old argument eh Mike...damned if they do and damned if they dont.
Personally, I say no to arming cops. Even if they had been armed yesterday, the outcome would probably have been the same, why? because they (the police) did not anticipate a firearm being used against them. If they did, then, and only then, would the outcome yesterday be different. It would have ben the AOS facing off, not two cops and a dog.

Yea pretty much mate but i am for arming them,sure they didnt anticipate a firearm but the outcome might have been different if they had had them readily available.As it was they didnt have a chance in hell.

[Pixie]

Yep, every time the cops shoot someone there's a hue and cry from someone. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.



Cool!! I'd be a starter for paying to throw rotten stuff and shit at them. Maybe for extra you could shove it in their faces, rub it through their hair (if they have any) etc.

**stuff like this brings out the worst in me......**

Sometimes they shoot an innocent bystander.
Sometimes they fail to hit a rottie that is only 10 feet away.
Sometimes they shoot themselves in training.

No cheapskate keystone cop NZ bullshit.Arm them.Train them to use the guns properly.Test their arms skills every month and if it is not up to international standards give them a desk job.

The moment those cops detected dope smoke they should have gone in with guns drawn.

[marty]

A good friend of mine and a very close colleague would probably still be alive if they had have been armed as a matter of course. everyone's entitled to their opinion, but cops (as does everyone who goes to work) deserve the best opportunities to go home to their families in other than a hospital bed or wooden box at the end of their shift

[98tls]

A good friend of mine and a very close colleague would probably still be alive if they had have been armed as a matter of course. everyone's entitled to their opinion, but cops (as does everyone who goes to work) deserve the best opportunities to go home to their families in other than a hospital bed or wooden box at the end of their shift

Well put Marty,what i dont get is the acceptance that scumbuckets have guns but the reluctance to at least put coppers on an equal footing.

[BoristheBiter]

A good friend of mine and a very close colleague would probably still be alive if they had have been armed as a matter of course. everyone's entitled to their opinion, but cops (as does everyone who goes to work) deserve the best opportunities to go home to their families in other than a hospital bed or wooden box at the end of their shift

Too true.
Also the abilaty able to buy your own protection, whether that is body armour, weapons or training.
The days of just rocking up to a house with a warrant and a couple of cops are long gone and it is about time the ones at the top start paying attention, that goes for the assocition aswell.
Just look at how they do it in the UK, van of coppers in full armour crash the doors in, not as it is done here knock on the door and ask to be let in.
Those days are gone and it is time the NZ police caught up.

[Banditbandit]

This is always going to be a difficult issue ... I'm against arming the cops ... because it will just be an arms race with the crims ... and the crims will win ... Sure a few will get shot along the way ... and so will more cops ... but the crims are not limited by the law (that's the nature of crims) while the police generally are ...

And there's an awful lot of very dangerous weapons out here ... have a look at Jan Molenaar's collection ... it included an SLR assault rifle (and there are thousands of them out there that our own army sold on trhe open market when they swapped to the Steyrs) and various other military weapons ... there's AK47s, Armalites and Colts ... I've even seen shoulder-launched and four-barrel missile launchers. It won't take long for the crims to get their hands on such weapons ...

Secondly, unfortunately, in both the Chch incident yesterday and the Jan Molenaar case, armed police would not have had time to respond ... both time the guman fired first ... with no warning that was going to happen. How long does it take to get a pistol out of a holder, compared to swinging a rifle and pulling the trigger ?

Now, I also happen to think that both gunmen should get a bullet through the head (Jan Molenaar did it to himself ... yesterday in Chch the shooter gave himself up ... should be shot) ... so I'm not a wimping liberal ... I favour the death penalty .. some people don't deserve to stay alive ...
and we're safer without them around ..

Thirdly, the cops can't shoot ... If a cop has a gun then the safest place to be is where he's pointing it ... none of them can hit a rottie at three paces ... they shot Halatau Naitoko accidenetally when they missed a gunman at about 10 feet on the Auckland motorway ... in Napier many years ago a police offer shot at a dog across the bonnet of his car, missed the dfog and the bullet bounced of a driveway and slammed into a sitting room wall just above where a baby was sleeping ... any halfway decent hunter in this country is a better shot ... and pistols are very close range weapons - with a pistol bystanders are in even nore danger ... and bodies don't necessarily stop in human bodies ... I've seen two deer killed by one shot - straight through one and into the other ... in a city who knows where the bullet will end up ...

Yes, I agree that we are becoming a violent country - we need to address the issues that make this so. Detterent sentences do not work - We have the second highest imprisonment rates in the world - violent crime is increasing ... Many states in the US have the death penalty - the ultimate deterrent you'd think .. but plenty of murders still happen ... (I don't argue that the death penalty is a deterent - it's not - but it removes the danger completely and forever ...) why are the "solutions" offered by the hard liners not working? When will you realise that your solutions are not working?

We have fundamentally lost respect in this country - for each other, for the police (Yeah, I can be pretty hard on the police, but as human beings doing a dangerous and difficult job they have my respect - and I'd never think of shooting one). Why do we hate each other so much? We hate the boy racers .. we hate the bikers .. we hate the dope smokers ... we hate the poor ... we hate anyone who is not like us ... the level of anger between people in this country is not the country I grew up in ... if you hate someone so much, of course some crazies are going to start shooting ... look at the language in this thread .. I doubt anyone here would pull a gun, but the verbal suggestion can be made .. and them someone slightly crazier is going to do it ... "You wanna shoot me? I'll get in first ..."

So that's enough of a rave .. don't arm the police ... it will just make things worse ...

[Banditbandit]

Too true.
Also the abilaty able to buy your own protection, whether that is body armour, weapons or training.
The days of just rocking up to a house with a warrant and a couple of cops are long gone and it is about time the ones at the top start paying attention, that goes for the assocition aswell.
Just look at how they do it in the UK, van of coppers in full armour crash the doors in, not as it is done here knock on the door and ask to be let in.
Those days are gone and it is time the NZ police caught up.

Yeah that programme makes me laugh .. the cops go in boots and all ..and what do they get? The offenders get a slap on the hand with a wet bus ticket ... Only once a programme, if that, does someone go to jail ...

[Headbanger]

The cops have ready access to guns, and specialist armed units.

There is no need for them to be strapped on every hip, certainly not without massive resources pumped into training and weeding out the many not worthy or capable of that responsibility.

The cops that were shot at had the opportunity to make a judgment call and bring in some fire power before proceeding.

If you arm every wanker with a badge then you will have fuckwits having gun battles over traffic tickets and we will soon have the shithole situation like they do in the good ol USA, Fuckwits with guns on both sides,prepared to use them to protect their safety.

Any officer is free to work in another industry if they are not happy about not being issued with a personal weapon.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Well put Marty,what i dont get is the acceptance that scumbuckets have guns but the reluctance to at least put coppers on an equal footing.

That sums up my view perfectly.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Well put Marty,what i dont get is the acceptance that scumbuckets have guns but the reluctance to at least put coppers on an equal footing.

That sums up my view perfectly.

[Scuba_Steve]

In light of the fact that two po po were out doing their jobs today and got shot for their troubles, why THE HELL shouldn't they be strapped as a matter of course? Glock on the hip, shotguns in the car, and a decent anti ballistic vest?

Even two fucking muppets with a few pot plants and psychiatric trouble have a .22 and a .308 these days. These guys had their Taser (oh yeah, in the CAR!)

As a taxpayer, I am happy to fund this, providing the proper training at inception (and ongoing) is provided. My money would be better spent on this than that fucker who is on legal aid in prison getting $20k.

I dont often post what I really think, but this is one time I have.

Oh, and this prick that shot the police dog? Bullet in the head.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3913189/Officers-shot-dog-killed-in-Christchurch

If the cops were strapped I would seriously say they'd be dead right now. if your gonna shoot a strapped person you shoot to kill! There is still NO reason to strap police criminals will ALWAYS out gun them. Would you have felt better if the guy pulled the much more lethal .308 rather than the survivable .22???

[Headbanger]

That sums up my view perfectly.

ad infinitum?

I hope you watched that Jamaica Police doco the other week.

Be careful what you wish for, arming the police won't even the stakes, only raise them.

[PrincessBandit]

Be careful what you wish for, arming the police won't even the stakes, only raise them.

Sadly I have to agree. It will always be an uneven fight as crims have much more to lose by not staying ahead in the weapon race.
Wish there was an easy answer to this, but the nasty side of human nature (in both offenders and less-than-straight-cops) will always preclude any viable solution.

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah that programme makes me laugh .. the cops go in boots and all ..and what do they get? The offenders get a slap on the hand with a wet bus ticket ... Only once a programme, if that, does someone go to jail ...

But the cops aren't injured (except the one i saw biten by the dog) and thats the point.
From your post at the top
"Thirdly, the cops can't shoot ... If a cop has a gun then the safest place to be is where he's pointing it ... none of them can hit a rottie at three paces ... they shot Halatau Naitoko accidenetally when they missed a gunman at about 10 feet on the Auckland motorway ... in Napier many years ago a police offer shot at a dog across the bonnet of his car, missed the dfog and the bullet bounced of a driveway and slammed into a sitting room wall just above where a baby was sleeping ... any halfway decent hunter in this country is a better shot ... and pistols are very close range weapons - with a pistol bystanders are in even nore danger ... and bodies don't necessarily stop in human bodies ... I've seen two deer killed by one shot - straight through one and into the other ... in a city who knows where the bullet will end up ... "

So thats what maybe five cops you are talking about.
I have seen some very impressive shooting with the glocks and bushmasters and have seen some pretty shit shooting from hunters.

[Swoop]

Started a Facebook campaign for arming the police, thats what i believe needs to happen.
Unfortunately Quasi, the average policeman does not have, or will get, the same amount of training required to handle or use a firearm correctly (+ safely). Compared to Army training the fuzz are in a different league altogether.

Theres no doubt that sooner or later there going to get them anyway so why do they persist in fucking about.
Simple. Training issues.
The skills needed to use a pistol (that's what they are wanting all police armed with) take a long time to aquire and many thousands of rounds fired. This = TIME + MONEY. The police would have to spend a lot of coin on this alone, without considering the cost of the firearms involved.

... it included an SLR assault rifle (and there are thousands of them out there that our own army sold on trhe open market
At least most of them went to one source...:shit:


Thirdly, the cops can't shoot ... If a cop has a gun then the safest place to be is where he's pointing it ...
Very well said! The initial training is very breif and continuation training is a joke.


don't arm the police ... it will just make things worse ...
Once again. Perfectly stated.
Leave the average bobby with a tazer and keep AOS doing what they do.

[Headbanger]

Leave the average bobby with a tazer and keep AOS doing what they do.

Yep.

10 characters

[Swoop]

I have seen some very impressive shooting with the glocks and bushmasters
This "impressive shooting" is what has caused the police being banned from all of the shooting ranges around Auckland. They had to set their own range up in South Auckland because of their actions and damages inflicted to the other ranges.

[Banditbandit]

So thats what maybe five cops you are talking about.
I have seen some very impressive shooting with the glocks and bushmasters and have seen some pretty shit shooting from hunters.

I didn't say every hunter was a good shot .. like police some of them are pretty good and some of them are crappy too ...

I'll bet there are some crims out there who can't shoot either - but will still pull the trigger ...

Maybe training the cops is a good idea ... at least improve their shooting ... but the crims will always have bigger and better weapons ... It's like the War on Terror ... how do you stop a suicide bomber who expects to die anyway ? You stop them becoming suicide bombers ... How to you stop a crim? Stop them becoming crims ... once their a suicide bomber or a crim, it's too late ...

[BoristheBiter]

This "impressive shooting" is what has caused the police being banned from all of the shooting ranges around Auckland. They had to set their own range up in South Auckland because of their actions and damages inflicted to the other ranges.

There's a big difference between good shooting and good shooting practice.

[Patrick]

Concerns me too - and I'm old-school.

But I trust NOBODY out there when I am working.

Aint that the truth. Times have changed.


who heard the fucktard on the news say 'then the cops beat him up'

3 news reaches a new low reporting shit like that. they had video (which was great and would seem to condradict the 'beat up'), but ffs

Good ole TV3.... at it again..... they are good like that......


.....the moment those cops detected dope smoke they should have gone in with guns drawn.

But dope is supposed to mellow folk out.... or so some of the legalise dope crusaders out there want you to believe....


This "impressive shooting" is what has caused the police being banned from all of the shooting ranges around Auckland. They had to set their own range up in South Auckland because of their actions and damages inflicted to the other ranges.

Damage included leaving dirty coffee cups and not taking the rubbish away....... Poor form for sure....., but what is this other "damage" you refer to?

It was mostly a cost measure.... it was cheaper to build your own range than hire one on an almost permanent basis......

[BoristheBiter]

I didn't say every hunter was a good shot .. like police some of them are pretty good and some of them are crappy too ...No but you make a generalization that cops can't shoot

I'll bet there are some crims out there who can't shoot either - but will still pull the trigger ... Most can't

Maybe training the cops is a good idea ... at least improve their shooting ... but the crims will always have bigger and better weapons ... It's like the War on Terror ... how do you stop a suicide bomber who expects to die anyway ? You stop them becoming suicide bombers ... How to you stop a crim? Stop them becoming crims ... once their a suicide bomber or a crim, it's too late ...

So what then just let the crims do what the fuck they like?
Crims will always have the upper hand as they only use the law when it suits then, like as a defence, but that is no reason to not let the cops be able to defend themselves.
To many people posts here about being able to defend themselves, their property or their family and friends so why can't the police have the right to do so, as the saying goes you don't take a knife to a gun fight.

The crims are all ready armed so if to defend themselves the police become armed then so be it, it is up to them not some bunch of wimping liberals, and who knows if you all think you might get shot by the under trained police, maybe it might make people more likley to comply when asked to do something.

[Forest]

But dope is supposed to mellow folk out.... or so some of the legalise dope crusaders out there want you to believe....


Dope makes unstable people more unstable.

Sad to say, but it's rather like alcohol in that regard.

[Swoop]

Damage included leaving dirty coffee cups and not taking the rubbish away....... Poor form for sure....., but what is this other "damage" you refer to?
The sheer quantity of rounds embedded in the range structures and "no shoot" areas.
One range had the butts heightened by approximately 750mm to reduce the amount of rounds going over the top...
We are not just talking about a few bits of rubbish being left around.

[98tls]

If you arm every wanker with a badge then you will have fuckwits having gun battles over traffic tickets and we will soon have the shithole situation like they do in the good ol USA, Fuckwits with guns on both sides,prepared to use them to protect their safety.
Any officer is free to work in another industry if they are not happy about not being issued with a personal weapon.

"whoa there fella dont shoot yet just give me a minute to pop out the car and grab me gun,ta."So your answer is to forget that the bad guy arms himself at will but you wont see the guys that have to deal with him the same.Jesus no wonder they find it hard to get decent recruits eh,anyone fancy a Turkey shoot?we will pay you well to be a target.Fuck that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If the cops were strapped I would seriously say they'd be dead right now. if your gonna shoot a strapped person you shoot to kill! There is still NO reason to strap police criminals will ALWAYS out gun them. Would you have felt better if the guy pulled the much more lethal .308 rather than the survivable .22???

they shot that poor fucker in the FACE. anytime anyone points a gun at someone its with the intention of killing them.

LAPD and other jurisdictions have shotguns. Remington combat shotguns. 16 inch barrel, 7 shot 20 gauge pistol grip. So do most urban warfare army units, and for good reason: they pack major stoppage power into a small parcel, they havent got a huge range esp with the short barrel, and if they tag someone, they WILL go down.

[HenryDorsetCase]

ad infinitum?

I hope you watched that Jamaica Police doco the other week.

Be careful what you wish for, arming the police won't even the stakes, only raise them.

didnt see it. What i mainly object to is the fact that all the crims have guns now*, and we send our po po in with a fucking "nearly" stab proof vest, and their winning charm and personal skills. So the stakes are already pretty high, for our public servants at least.

not sure about the double post thing: I tend to use quick reply with quote option, and it then goes to the long format reply screen then say "you must wait ten seconds" so I hit it again thinking it hasnt worked, but it in fact had. Magic.


*well, you could safely assume that where drugs are involved....


also, another thought. I have long thought that all drugs should be decriminalised, starting with marijuana. If that was the case, then this clusterfuck yesterday would not have happened.

[Headbanger]

"whoa there fella dont shoot yet just give me a minute to pop out the car and grab me gun,ta."So your answer is to forget that the bad guy arms himself at will but you wont see the guys that have to deal with him the same.Jesus no wonder they find it hard to get decent recruits eh,anyone fancy a Turkey shoot?we will pay you well to be a target.Fuck that.

Nope, I never said to forget anything, especially not that some people have the mentality to carry arms and to shoot people, Cops and crims alike.

My point was that arming all cops around the clock merely raises the stakes rather then evening them, Truth be told the power and resources of the law far outweighs the power of the pothead with a 22, So it is in the favour of the police already(as it should be)

Dealing with shitheads, violence is always going to be a day to day issue.

[HenryDorsetCase]

But dope is supposed to mellow folk out.... or so some of the legalise dope crusaders out there want you to believe....

.

any mind altering substance will most likely have deleterious effects on a small minority of the people who consume it. Alcohol is the obvious legal example: not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic, same as not everyone who gambles becomes a gambling addict.

Some people who recreationally use marijuana or marijuana products will become addicted (psychologically addicted that is, not physically dependent like with opiates or methamphetamine). But for the vast majority of its users, it causes no more issue than having a glass or two of wine with dinner. And, for the record, I dont use it.

What is self evident is that the "War on Drugs" does not work. So, you decriminalise pot first up. But subject to controls, like alcohol: You can't SELL it, for example, to ANYONE, but you can possess it, and you can supply it. you can't have it if you are under 18, you cant use it in a public place, you cant use it and drive a car, etc etc etc. Easy to do, and we as a society do it already with alcohol.

It cuts the economic base of the gangs down, because now no one who wants this stuff needs to deal with criminal scumbags. That means they do a starve, hopefully making it a less attractive lifestyle option in the poorer suburbs. It allows the po po to actually go out and (wait for it) chase "Real" crims. Or at least come round my house and pretend to give two fucks if I get burgled.

But if you steal stuff to sell to get it, then you get punished, If you break in my house in a drug fuelled haze, you get put to death.

Its the neighbor principle:

"Do what you want, till it pisses off the neighbors"

[The Pastor]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dd7_1274051429



............

[HenryDorsetCase]

Nope, I never said to forget anything, especially not that some people have the mentality to carry arms and to shoot people, Cops and crims alike.

My point was that arming all cops around the clock merely raises the stakes rather then evening them, Truth be told the power and resources of the law far outweighs the power of the pothead with a 22, So it is in the favour of the police already(as it should be)

Dealing with shitheads, violence is always going to be a day to day issue.

What we're saying is "at least give the poor sad-ass po po SOME option when confronted with a crazed fucktard with a gun" Presently, all they can do is pull down their mirror shades and bristle their moustache at the crackhead.

Equalising does not equate with escalation, in my view. If I understand it correctly, that is your view. We differ.

And its not like the crims are going to trade in their .22's on AR15's with that cool little grenade launcher thing (cos they're hard to get), is it: crims arent licenced gun owners anyway, so restrictive gun laws dont apply to them anyway.

[Headbanger]

Judging by some of the shitbags I have known in the past, There "This will fuck em attitude" means they will keep handy whatever they need in order to "Fuck em" when the time comes.

Nothing is hard to get, If there is a demand for it, then someone will get it in.

Anyway, My other point is I don't trust cops with guns, They are just as stupid as the rest of us.

For the record Im no more impressed with recent events then anybody else, I just don't agree with arming everyone for a giant fuck off gun battle is the answer, The douch ebag who pulled the trigger was a in a power of shit the instant he went down that road, and the cop still would have been shot if he was armed,Just perhaps with something bigger and deadlier.

[BoristheBiter]

Judging by some of the shitbags I have known in the past, There "This will fuck em attitude" means they will keep handy whatever they need in order to "Fuck em" when the time comes.

Nothing is hard to get, If there is a demand for it, then someone will get it in.

Anyway, My other point is I don't trust cops with guns, They are just as stupid as the rest of us.

For the record Im no more impressed with recent events then anybody else, I just don't agree with arming everyone for a giant fuck off gun battle is the answer, The douch ebag who pulled the trigger was a in a power of shit the instant he went down that road, and the cop still would have been shot if he was armed,Just perhaps with something bigger and deadlier.

Whether you trust cops is a mute point, as it is now the cops can't trust anyone not to shot at them so they will defend themselves as they see fit.

If they were armed maybe this dick might have thought twice as he might have got shot too so just gave up and got the slap on the hand that comes with growing dope.

[HenryDorsetCase]

For the record Im no more impressed with recent events then anybody else, I just don't agree with arming everyone for a giant fuck off gun battle is the answer, The douch ebag who pulled the trigger was a in a power of shit the instant he went down that road, and the cop still would have been shot if he was armed,Just perhaps with something bigger and deadlier.

We disagree. Thats fine :)

[Headbanger]

Whether you trust cops is a mute point, as it is now the cops can't trust anyone not to shot at them so they will defend themselves as they see fit.

Yeah sweet, Cops with guns,shooting people as they see fit. I didn't think that was meant to be part of the job description but hell, Lets all just go to hell in a hail of gunfire.

That aside, How the public perceive the police is a very real and big issue, Not a "mute" issue.


If they were armed maybe this dick might have thought twice as he might have got shot too so just gave up and got the slap on the hand that comes with growing dope.

The fucker initiated a gun battle with the police, he was very aware that he was likely to get shot, and a gun battle with a bloody ending would have been plan A. The reason he didn't "suicide by cop" is because they weren't armed.

Like I said, He chose his road and it has little to do with whether the police on routine patrol were armed or not.

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah sweet, Cops with guns,shooting people as they see fit. I didn't think that was meant to be part of the job description but hell, Lets all just go to hell in a hail of gunfire.

That aside, How the public perceive the police is a very real and big issue, Not a "mute" issue.
the point is you said you don't trust cops, nothing to do with public opinion

The fucker initiated a gun battle with the police, he was very aware that he was likely to get shot, and a gun battle with a bloody ending would have been plan A. The reason he didn't "suicide by cop" is because they weren't armed.

Like I said, He chose his road and it has little to do with whether the police on routine patrol were armed or not.

In the word of HDC above "We disagree. Thats fine"

[Headbanger]

In the word of HDC above "We disagree. Thats fine"

ah, But he does it with a higher level of intelligence.

[BoristheBiter]

ah, But he does it with a higher level of intelligence.

What's intelligence got to do with it?

[Katman]

not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic,

Yeah, softcocks. What the fuck are they scared of?

[Banditbandit]

they shot that poor fucker in the FACE. anytime anyone points a gun at someone its with the intention of killing them.

Yes - he clearly meant to kill .. adn a .22 will kill - esdpecially in a head shot at short range. The cop is lucky to be alive.


LAPD and other jurisdictions have shotguns. Remington combat shotguns. 16 inch barrel, 7 shot 20 gauge pistol grip. So do most urban warfare army units, and for good reason: they pack major stoppage power into a small parcel, they havent got a huge range esp with the short barrel, and if they tag someone, they WILL go down.

Yup .. my point exactly ... LAPD are engaged in an arms race with the crims ... and they are not winning ... do we want to go down the same path?

530 police officers were killed on duty in the USA in 2008 ... an armed police force .. go here for the stats http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#leoka that's three dead cops every two days ... compared to how many UK Police officers (who are uarmed ...) what does this tell you?

[Banditbandit]

And its not like the crims are going to trade in their .22's on AR15's with that cool little grenade launcher thing (cos they're hard to get), is it: crims arent licenced gun owners anyway, so restrictive gun laws dont apply to them anyway.

No, they're not . they are not licenced gun ownersd and they still have guns tho'

Don't you think the local merchant is going to trade tho' ? He can sell the .22 to some dopey wannabe who thinks he's tough .. after he's got it from some crackhead who's swapped the .22 and some cash for lethal weaponery.

There's already plenty of guns in the underground market ...

[Banditbandit]

So what then just let the crims do what the fuck they like?

Sheesh .. you'd have to be pretty dumb to take that from what I said ...



Crims will always have the upper hand as they only use the law when it suits then, like as a defence, but that is no reason to not let the cops be able to defend themselves.
To many people posts here about being able to defend themselves, their property or their family and friends

Shit that's an even worse idea .. at least the police have some training. An armed vigilanty population is even more frightening .."Oh, Mabel, ... someone on a bike is coming up the drive .. pass me my shotgun!"


so why can't the police have the right to do so, as the saying goes you don't take a knife to a gun fight.

The crims are all ready armed so if to defend themselves the police become armed then so be it, it is up to them not some bunch of wimping liberals, and who knows if you all think you might get shot by the under trained police, maybe it might make people more likley to comply when asked to do something.

Who're you calling a wimping liberal ? And why should we automaticaly comply with police requests? As a citizen acting in a legal fashion, all I have to do is tell them my name and address. The first one who pulls a gun on me had better be ready ....

As was pointed out earlier, the British cop show shows them going in boots and all, trashing doors, huge numbers. Do you see the cops on that programme carrying guns ? NO. Do you see the crims pulling guns? NO. There's other ways than meeting violence with violence ...

[PrincessBandit]

As a citizen acting in a legal fashion, all I have to do is tell them my name and address. The first one who pulls a gun on me had better be ready...

As a citizen acting in a legal fashion, why would you expect one to pull a gun on you?

[Headbanger]

As a citizen acting in a legal fashion, why would you expect one to pull a gun on you?

It probably never crossed the mind of that courier driver either.....

[scumdog]

I wonder why there are bugger-all posts from cops on this thread??

Maybe it's because they are overwhelmed by the absolute knowledge of so many of the posters, ones that know what needs to be done and how to do it??

Obviously recruiting staff are sourcing the wrong people!!<_<:rolleyes:

[Katman]

Maybe it's because they are overwhelmed by the absolute knowledge of so many of the posters, ones that know what needs to be done and how to do it??



That's why I've tried to limit my posts to what I know about.

[Banditbandit]

As a citizen acting in a legal fashion, why would you expect one to pull a gun on you?

'cause they have given me cause in the past to think that it is a possibility ... bt that wasn't the point of my comment ...

Just go back to riding sweetie and leave the talk to the men ... :innocent:

[Dave Lobster]

I wonder why there are bugger-all posts from cops on this thread??


There's nobody around to read it out to them?!?

[Maha]

One thing that worries me about arming all cops is...
Those that have never fired a gun before, are suddenly equiped with a side-arm (after a brief but thorough time on the rifle range) and are expected to make the right call at any given moment.
It may be months before they are forced into a situation where they have to reach for thier weapon. Pulling out to soon may get frowned upon, releasing a load to soon may have the same effect? Virgin cops let loose shooting everywhere can only lead to one thing...therapy.

[Dave Lobster]

If the crime problem is as bad as people make out, surely it makes sense to put the army on the streets, a la, Belfast.
A lot of criminals could be wiped out in a few days. Let's face it, most of them stick out sore thumbs. Shoot them on site..

[Headbanger]

Obviously recruiting staff are sourcing the wrong people!!<_<:rolleyes:

The only people they can source are the mugs that want to be police.

Though no doubt there will be an influx if every yahoo gets a gun.

[scumdog]

One thing that worries me about arming all cops is...
Those that have never fired a gun before, are suddenly equiped with a side-arm (after a brief but thorough time on the rifle range) and are expected to make the right call at any given moment.
It may be months before they are forced into a situation where they have to reach for thier weapon. Pulling out to soon may get frowned upon, releasing a load to soon may have the same effect? Virgin cops let loose shooting everywhere can only lead to one thing...therapy.

The other option is the staus quo - and just don't worry too much about any more cops getting shot, hell, at least there's less chance of any shit-heads or public getting hurt then!:shutup:

[Headbanger]

The other option is the staus quo - and just don't worry too much about any more cops getting shot, hell, at least there's less chance of any shit-heads or public getting hurt then!:shutup:

Excellent, The safety of the public should be your first consideration, Sure I know in this country your not sworn to serve and protect the public, but a little consideration goes a long way.

I'm pretty sure most new sign-ups are aware they will be dealing with criminals and that this carries some unique risks.

[PrincessBandit]

Just go back to riding sweetie and leave the talk to the men ... :innocent:

Lol, talk dirty like that to me baby and I'll be telling you to slap on the lip chap and get on your knees....... (not sure if you've been around long enough to get what I mean, but you can always ask miloking).

[Slyer]

If someone shoots a police officer and the evidence is clear, they deserve execution.

Have you lot seen starship troopers?
In one part a news report proudly announces that a man has been caught after committing murder, he was charged, tried and found guilty within a 24-hour period and his execution is scheduled for later that day, to be broadcast on all channels.

I want to see this happen. Shoot a police officer, you will die.
Deterrent much?

[PirateJafa]

If someone shoots a police officer and the evidence is clear, they deserve execution.

Have you lot seen starship troopers?
In one part a news report proudly announces that a man has been caught after committing murder, he was charged, tried and found guilty within a 24-hour period and his execution is scheduled for later that day, to be broadcast on all channels.

I want to see this happen. Shoot a police officer, you will die.
Deterrent much?

I would agree with you. But only when and if the police become completely infallible, that is.

<img src="http://ghostradio.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/robocop-feat.jpg">

[scumdog]

The only people they can source are the mugs that want to be police.

Though no doubt there will be an influx if every yahoo gets a gun.


I'd join twice just to get a gun.

OK, I was being sarcarstik - I already can carry one any time I like.

[BoristheBiter]

Sheesh .. you'd have to be pretty dumb to take that from what I said ...




Shit that's an even worse idea .. at least the police have some training. An armed vigilanty population is even more frightening .."Oh, Mabel, ... someone on a bike is coming up the drive .. pass me my shotgun!"



Who're you calling a wimping liberal ? And why should we automaticaly comply with police requests? As a citizen acting in a legal fashion, all I have to do is tell them my name and address. The first one who pulls a gun on me had better be ready ....

As was pointed out earlier, the British cop show shows them going in boots and all, trashing doors, huge numbers. Do you see the cops on that programme carrying guns ? NO. Do you see the crims pulling guns? NO. There's other ways than meeting violence with violence ...

Yep we can all take little bits of someones post and make them sound like anything we want.

So what is your option to fix this?

if your not a cop or have non in the family then i can understand the way you feel, but if you do then you would know what it is like to hear on the radio that another cop has been assaulted/killed and spend the next few minute trying to find out who/where.

If your not a wimping liberal then i will say sorry for calling you one but thats what you are sounding like.

[scumdog]

The only people they can source are the mugs that want to be police.

True you would have to be a mug to even think about it.


(And I seriously think that at times about myself)

[Maha]

The other option is the staus quo - and just don't worry too much about any more cops getting shot, hell, at least there's less chance of any shit-heads or public getting hurt then!:shutup:

Interesting that the cops that were shot at yesterday, did in fact have access to a gun but chose not to. A member of the public was killed by a stray bullet fired by a cop on the North Western Motorway last year? Leave it to the AOS, thats what they are there for. Cops being shot while on duty is a very rare thing. Napier last year being the exception.

[scumdog]

Interesting that the cops that were shot at yesterday, did in fact have access to a gun but chose not to. A member of the public was killed by a stray bullet fired by a cop on the North Western Motorway last year? Leave it to the AOS, thats what they are there for. Cops being shot while on duty is a very rear thing. Napier last year being the exception.

So most of the others ever shot were not actually on dut???:blink:

[PrincessBandit]

If someone shoots a police officer and the evidence is clear, they deserve execution.

Have you lot seen starship troopers?
In one part a news report proudly announces that a man has been caught after committing murder, he was charged, tried and found guilty within a 24-hour period and his execution is scheduled for later that day, to be broadcast on all channels.

I want to see this happen. Shoot a police officer, you will die.
Deterrent much?

Starship troopers! yeah - I love the scene where the bug sucks his brain out. Perhaps they could do that to execute cop murderers. (But then there could be some difficulty locating the actual brain material of some)

[HenryDorsetCase]

I'm not sure that quoting Starship Troopers in your submission to the Lor and Order select committee in ParliAment is the way to get taken seriously in your submission.

Just saying.

Though it is a very funny film, I like it a lot.

Here is an interesting bit of trivia: in the well-known documentary series Firefly, the Alliance (bad guy police in the 'verse) wear body armor that looks suspiciously like that from Starship Troopers. It was because the production company hired the props from the studio that owned Starship Troopers.

Also they had cool laser cannons n shit.

[Patrick]

Interesting that the cops that were shot at yesterday, did in fact have access to a gun but chose not to. A member of the public was killed by a stray bullet fired by a cop on the North Western Motorway last year? Leave it to the AOS, thats what they are there for. Cops being shot while on duty is a very rare thing. Napier last year being the exception.

Glenn MCKIBBIN
Duncan TAYLOR
Don WILKINSON
Len SNEE

And these are the more recent ones.

There are plenty more. 17 before that..... and that is just the shootings....

"Very rare to be shot on duty?"

That can be a Tui Billboard.

Good one! :shutup:

[Maha]

Glenn MCKIBBIN
Duncan TAYLOR
Don WILKINSON
Len SNEE

And these are the more recent ones.

There are plenty more. 17 before that..... and that is just the shootings....

"Very rare to be shot on duty?"

That can be a Tui Billboard.

Good one! :shutup:

The rate is very low considering the Police/Public contact on a hourly basis.
Not acceptable at any level but given the contact between good and evil, it not a bad run rate.

[Banditbandit]

If the crime problem is as bad as people make out, surely it makes sense to put the army on the streets, a la, Belfast.
A lot of criminals could be wiped out in a few days. Let's face it, most of them stick out sore thumbs. Shoot them on site..

You're kidding me .. How do they stickout like sore thumbs? Wearing black leathers and riding large motorcycles maybe?

[Banditbandit]

Lol, talk dirty like that to me baby and I'll be telling you to slap on the lip chap and get on your knees....... (not sure if you've been around long enough to get what I mean, but you can always ask miloking).

What's the lip chap for? Sounds kinky ...

[Banditbandit]

If someone shoots a police officer and the evidence is clear, they deserve execution.

Have you lot seen starship troopers?
In one part a news report proudly announces that a man has been caught after committing murder, he was charged, tried and found guilty within a 24-hour period and his execution is scheduled for later that day, to be broadcast on all channels.

I want to see this happen. Shoot a police officer, you will die.
Deterrent much?

No deterent at all .. removes the problem .. I'm all in favour of that .. but don't confuse that with deterent sentences ... the deth penalty in America has not reduced the murder rate ...

[Banditbandit]

Yep we can all take little bits of someones post and make them sound like anything we want.

So what is your option to fix this?

if your not a cop or have non in the family then i can understand the way you feel, but if you do then you would know what it is like to hear on the radio that another cop has been assaulted/killed and spend the next few minute trying to find out who/where.

If your not a wimping liberal then i will say sorry for calling you one but thats what you are sounding like.

Hmmm .. we have a very serious problem of vilence at all levels of society, and police getting shot is one symptom of that. It's not acceptable, and I believe cop killers and other murderers (not all, but some) should get the death sentence - happy to pull the trigger myself ... and a bullet into the central cortex is the most humane, efficent and cost effective execution method .. instant, painless and costs just over $1 a kill ...

But meeting violence with violence is not the answer. It's what the US does, and it's a solution which is not working. They have more people in jails than NZ .. more cops are killed each week than NZ ... there are more murders per week than NZ ... just across the boarder in Canada there is a very low rate of murders and cop killings with just as heavily armed a population as NZ and the US , in Britain agian, a low rate of murder and cop killings ... no readily armed police with gklocks on hips ... why do we look to the failing US response, ratrher than the working Canadian or British or other European resposes? Are we so attached to ffollowing the US - in both rising crime and responses - that we can'tr see any other way expect violence? That's the problem right there.

Now, we have created a criminal underclass in this country that si prepared to use violence - against fellow citizens and police - I'm horrified at the generation folloiwng my own. In rebelling against our parents and demanding more freedm, then giving it to our kids we have created a monster ...

Once people become hard core crims it is very difficult to change that - lock them up ... execute them if necessary - but don't see it as a deterent. It never was and it never will be - it's a protective measure only. We have ncreased sentecnes, increased the numbers in jail, but the problem is not going away ... that response is not working . Once in prison we can change the ones we can. At present repeat offending rates are a lot lower than you might think. The repeat incaceration rate for first time offenders is very very low, but the repeat offenders continue to repeat and repeat .. which says that there is a high sucess rate with people put in jail, but the failures are failures for every ...

So we have a group of people in society for whom it is too late - basically we should lock them upand throw away the key ...

However, we need to stop creating criminals ... and there are many factiors which create crims ..poverty - poor educational achievement, poor housing, bad parents (especially crims as parents) ... do you ever think about the children of the people you want to drop in jail? How angry do you think a six year old boy becomes if his father is locked in jail? Where does that anger go? How does the family support itself if father is in jail? On the DPB? Growing up in a single parent famioly on the DPB is a majro risk factor for a child to become a crim. How many potential future crims have been creating by putting fathers in jail? If we want to put them in jail, what do we do about the faimly? Nothing of course - we leave them on the DPB to grow future crims !

Education is a good answer .. give people hope and a future, they will not beconme crims .. that's a long term solution and won't stop the killing of a cop next week .. but will in 10 to 15 years ...

Caring about each other will go along way to help ... Many people were upset when four-year-old James Whakaruru was murdered by his step father in 1999. But what did the community do? Many ases of child abuse - neighbors, friends, family, must know what is happening and do nothing!

At the same time as James died, everyone weanted to blood of Taffy Hotene who raped and murdered Kylie Jones the same year. Taffy Hotene was a James Whakaruru grown up - he grw up in a totally abusive family, went to school hungrry and covered in bruises - he was lucky to survive to adulthood. So how can we feel sorry for the four year old and condemn the grown up man? What would James Whakaruru have beocme if he had lived? Tffy Hotene, Paul Dally Rufus Marsh?

Well, I think Hotene deserved the death penatly - too late for him ..... (and he died in prison last year) But it's not too late for the other four year old Taffy Hotenes and James Whakarurus ...

What are YOU prepaeed to do for them? Just sit back and call them crims that stick out like a sore thumb? Hate them they way they will hate you ? Demand more violence against their families?

No wonder they hate us and will shoot us at the drop of a hat ... I've lived with them and been in their head space ... I've never hated enough to pull a gun, but atttude-wise, I've come close ...

Violence wil only be meet with violence, and a growing war and arms race - that path is a no-win one!


Jeez .. that's a bit of tirade ...

[Patrick]

The rate is very low considering the Police/Public contact on a hourly basis.
Not acceptable at any level but given the contact between good and evil, it not a bad run rate.

That is ONLY the dead ones.

I wasn't even talking about those who have been shot and recover......

I bet the bad guys run rate is better.......... excluding Mr HALITAU of course, as he wasn't a bad guy at all.....

[SPman]

Violence is not increasing appreciably at all - media reporting of violence is! Usually at the expense of more important news, like who's currently raping the country! The old story of - If it bleeds, it leads, is all too apparent in NZ (and other countries) main stream media!
In 2004/5 there were 37 assaults with firearms, in 1996/97 there were 36. In between its gone up and down, sometimes dropping to as low as 13, more usually hovering around 30.
The police have more than adequate powers and generally have firearms available when needed. We have to think - do we want a quasi-military style police force with "compliance policing" - ie "do what I say or I'll shoot you", a police force everyone fears and police strut around exuding an air of aggression....like a lot of the cops over here do. Not all, but enough to give you a dirty taste in your mouth and a desire to give them the least help possible! .
I think you would find, most NZ police would have no desire to be armed.
How about more training in the classic manouvre of intelligent defusing of potentially explosive situations - OK - it won't work in a situation where a person is off their nut and going to shoot, anyway ..Aramoana, etc - nothing works in those situations and, regardless of whether police are armed or not, there will always be those situations and there are procedures in place to deal with those sorts of scenarios as they occur, but, arming of the police will not be of any use in a surprise attack situation like the one that just occured.
The only weapon of any use would have been more training in situational awareness. Police bursting in with weapons drawn is not good policing, it is an invitation to more disasters, which the media and vested interests will use to further their own ends - and it's not the safety of the public!

[Patrick]

....Cop shot a motorcyclist in the spine during a routine traffic stop and paralyzed him. Reason? "I thought he had a weapon on him". There's a video, if you watch it, you can see clearly no attempt was made to reach for any weapon:

Pulling the right hand back like he did made it look a bit like he was reaching for one.... but that cop had plenty of options before firing......IMHO......

I htink this was more about telling the rider, in a forceful way, "Dang... I tells ya'all that Harleys can't corner." It is even in the video....

[Patrick]

Violence is not increasing appreciably at all - media reporting of violence is! Usually at the expense of more important news, like who's currently raping the country! The old story of - If it bleeds, it leads, is all too apparent in NZ (and other countries) main stream media!
In 2004/5 there were 37 assaults with firearms, in 1996/97 there were 36. In between its gone up and down, sometimes dropping to as low as 13, more usually hovering around 30.

5 to 6 year old stats... helpful... NOT!!!

I think you would find, most NZ police would have no desire to be armed.

I think you might be right.....

How about more training in the classic manouvre of intelligent defusing of potentially explosive situations - ........!

Like that doesn't already happen? These ones don't make the news. They happen all the time.

[Dave Lobster]

You're kidding me .. How do they stickout like sore thumbs? Wearing black leathers and riding large motorcycles maybe?

They wear gang patches.

[george formby]

I have friends in the Police & everyday they put their arses on the line dealing with low lifes we know nothing about. Shootings like this are a kick in the guts for their family watching mum or dad go to work. The media, as usual, has created an OMG!:shit: situation on a very limited amount of released information.
The Feds deserve investment in training & equipment to make them as safe & effective as possible.
Putting a few thousand more guns on the street doe's not strike me as a quick fix, just more bullets flying around.
Let officers on the street who have received that investment make the decision about what they need.

They can make a rational decision on what is considered inappropriate speed for the conditions too if the traffic fine quota stops affecting their funding. :shutup:
Sorry off topic.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hmmm .. we have a very serious problem of vilence at all levels of society, and police getting shot is one symptom of that. It's not acceptable, and I believe cop killers and other murderers (not all, but some) should get the death sentence - happy to pull the trigger myself ... and a bullet into the central cortex is the most humane, efficent and cost effective execution method .. instant, painless and costs just over $1 a kill ...

But meeting violence with violence is not the answer. It's what the US does, and it's a solution which is not working. They have more people in jails than NZ .. more cops are killed each week than NZ ... there are more murders per week than NZ ... just across the boarder in Canada there is a very low rate of murders and cop killings with just as heavily armed a population as NZ and the US , in Britain agian, a low rate of murder and cop killings ... no readily armed police with gklocks on hips ... why do we look to the failing US response, ratrher than the working Canadian or British or other European resposes? Are we so attached to ffollowing the US - in both rising crime and responses - that we can'tr see any other way expect violence? That's the problem right there.

Now, we have created a criminal underclass in this country that si prepared to use violence - against fellow citizens and police - I'm horrified at the generation folloiwng my own. In rebelling against our parents and demanding more freedm, then giving it to our kids we have created a monster ...

Once people become hard core crims it is very difficult to change that - lock them up ... execute them if necessary - but don't see it as a deterent. It never was and it never will be - it's a protective measure only. We have ncreased sentecnes, increased the numbers in jail, but the problem is not going away ... that response is not working . Once in prison we can change the ones we can. At present repeat offending rates are a lot lower than you might think. The repeat incaceration rate for first time offenders is very very low, but the repeat offenders continue to repeat and repeat .. which says that there is a high sucess rate with people put in jail, but the failures are failures for every ...

So we have a group of people in society for whom it is too late - basically we should lock them upand throw away the key ...

However, we need to stop creating criminals ... and there are many factiors which create crims ..poverty - poor educational achievement, poor housing, bad parents (especially crims as parents) ... do you ever think about the children of the people you want to drop in jail? How angry do you think a six year old boy becomes if his father is locked in jail? Where does that anger go? How does the family support itself if father is in jail? On the DPB? Growing up in a single parent famioly on the DPB is a majro risk factor for a child to become a crim. How many potential future crims have been creating by putting fathers in jail? If we want to put them in jail, what do we do about the faimly? Nothing of course - we leave them on the DPB to grow future crims !

Education is a good answer .. give people hope and a future, they will not beconme crims .. that's a long term solution and won't stop the killing of a cop next week .. but will in 10 to 15 years ...

Caring about each other will go along way to help ... Many people were upset when four-year-old James Whakaruru was murdered by his step father in 1999. But what did the community do? Many ases of child abuse - neighbors, friends, family, must know what is happening and do nothing!

At the same time as James died, everyone weanted to blood of Taffy Hotene who raped and murdered Kylie Jones the same year. Taffy Hotene was a James Whakaruru grown up - he grw up in a totally abusive family, went to school hungrry and covered in bruises - he was lucky to survive to adulthood. So how can we feel sorry for the four year old and condemn the grown up man? What would James Whakaruru have beocme if he had lived? Tffy Hotene, Paul Dally Rufus Marsh?

Well, I think Hotene deserved the death penatly - too late for him ..... (and he died in prison last year) But it's not too late for the other four year old Taffy Hotenes and James Whakarurus ...

What are YOU prepaeed to do for them? Just sit back and call them crims that stick out like a sore thumb? Hate them they way they will hate you ? Demand more violence against their families?

No wonder they hate us and will shoot us at the drop of a hat ... I've lived with them and been in their head space ... I've never hated enough to pull a gun, but atttude-wise, I've come close ...

Violence wil only be meet with violence, and a growing war and arms race - that path is a no-win one!


Jeez .. that's a bit of tirade ...

quite a good one, I thought.

my support for the death penalty is purely economic. a life prison sentence or preventative detention is the end of the road for these fuckers. But it costs me $110k/year or whatever to keep them there for all that time. That pisses me off because by that stage they are completely worthless oxygen thieves utterly incapable of becoming useful people ever again. And itsnot like any one of them (or all of them combined) are going to invent cold fusion or anti-gravity is it?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I got stopped at a full-on booze bus checkpoint last night. The po po was very nice to me, and I to him. middle aged, middle class white little fucker that I am.

[jahrasti]

That many shit posts, I don't know where to start. I don't think the computer would handle all the multi quotes.

Police CAN'T, sorry I will say that again for the hard of reading CAN'T carry a taser as routine. The circumstances of the job MUST dictate the carriage.

Jeepers what would the posts be like if he had been tazed and the public thought he shouldn't have been?

Firearms,well where to begin. There are few cops that I believe could not hit the target with a M4. Just like in life some are better than others. Those that fail get retested and/or remedial training.

Glock, well some struggle fair enough. I have had people who are shit scared of the glock shooting fucken well after very little time.

An example of the popo bosses scared to ruffle the public feathers. Baddies cruising around with guns in car wanting to do bad things to each other.

Cops arm themselves. Told to take guns off, too frightening to public.

Lastly the baddies already have guns (lots of them) if one thinks that they don't think again.

Why is it that there are alot of countries that routinely carry but the yanks are always used as an example?

[HenryDorsetCase]

That many shit posts, I don't know where to start. I don't think the computer would handle all the multi quotes.

Police CAN'T, sorry I will say that again for the hard of reading CAN'T carry a taser as routine. The circumstances of the job MUST dictate the carriage.

Jeepers what would the posts be like if he had been tazed and the public thought he shouldn't have been?

Firearms,well where to begin. There are few cops that I believe could not hit the target with a M4. Just like in life some are better than others. Those that fail get retested and/or remedial training.

Glock, well some struggle fair enough. I have had people who are shit scared of the glock shooting fucken well after very little time.

An example of the popo bosses scared to ruffle the public feathers. Baddies cruising around with guns in car wanting to do bad things to each other.

Cops arm themselves. Told to take guns off, too frightening to public.

Lastly the baddies already have guns (lots of them) if one thinks that they don't think again.

Why is it that there are alot of countries that routinely carry but the yanks are always used as an example?

Straya for example. They had MP5's also I think (for all your "let rip with a full mag, worry about where it went later" needs)

[breakaway]

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Want this to happen to you?

[BoristheBiter]

Hmmm .. we have a very serious problem of vilence at all levels of society, and police getting shot is one symptom of that. It's not acceptable, and I believe cop killers and other murderers (not all, but some) should get the death sentence - happy to pull the trigger myself ... and a bullet into the central cortex is the most humane, efficent and cost effective execution method .. instant, painless and costs just over $1 a kill ...

Violence wil only be meet with violence, and a growing war and arms race - that path is a no-win one!


Jeez .. that's a bit of tirade ...

Your right, that was a bit of a tirade and yes you still sound like a WL.

Who cares whether the deterant works, not the point of this thread (i might have it wrong), its about the right of the police to defend themselves by carring guns to which i am in all favour but it should be down to the police to decide if they do or not.

As to your above clap-trap i have seen many of doco's in regards to what works and what doen't and the only thing they have in common is the out come fuck all changes.
Take the last one i saw on the prison populations. They used (i think Sweden) as a subject and they were all "have to treat them with kid gloves and treat them nice, give them all they want" and at the end they had less people inside but the same crime rate and the same recidivist rate.

Lock them up, throw away the key or just plain put them down. who cares if it works at least they are off the streets and away from others that even if they don't respect the law at least they abide by them. if a few million people manage to go through life without being in trouble with the law why should we bow down to a pack of fuckwits who couldn't give a fly fuck about anything or body then themselves.

[Banditbandit]

They wear gang patches.

Yeah .. I might agree that tose wearing gang patches are likely to be criminals .. I don't think all crims wear gang patches ... I know that Jan Molenaar was not a patched member of any gang and I seriously doubt the two involved in the Chch shooting are patched members ...

You want to shoot all patched memebrs? Be my guest ..but dont complain when they start shooting back ... and don't expect that to solve the problem ... plenty of crims out there don't wear patches ..

[Banditbandit]

I got stopped at a full-on booze bus checkpoint last night. The po po was very nice to me, and I to him. middle aged, middle class white little fucker that I am.

Love it . that describes me to a T as well. I have become a middle class home owning fucker .. dunno how the hell that happened ... but hey, I'm alive, it's a sunny day and in six weeks I get my licence back and can ride again ...

Still haven't lost my radical politics tho' ...

[Banditbandit]

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Want this to happen to you?

Yeah ... I'm sure Katman would have taken him out the back and shot him for the speed and the wheelie ... might have put up Katman's ACC levy !

[Banditbandit]

why should we bow down to a pack of fuckwits who couldn't give a fly fuck about anything or body then themselves.

Good one Boris ... You clearly don't give a flying fuck about anything or anybody but yourself ... just perpetrating (get a fucking dictionary and look the word up) the attitude ... don't you think that the violence in your language and attitude is expressed by people pulling guns? Don't you think there's a connection? (I, sorry, I shouild have realised - another fuckwit who couldn't ... )

I never suggested bowing down before them .. If you could actualy read and comprehend (yeah I know, men can't multi-task) I said they should be locked up .. and even shot ...

[BoristheBiter]

Good one Boris ... You clearly don't give a flying fuck about anything or anybody but yourself ... just perpetrating (get a fucking dictionary and look the word up) the attitude ... don't you think that the violence in your language and attitude is expressed by people pulling guns? Don't you think there's a connection? (I, sorry, I shouild have realised - another fuckwit who couldn't ... )

I never suggested bowing down before them .. If you could actualy read and comprehend (yeah I know, men can't multi-task) I said they should be locked up .. and even shot ...

Wow, you must think a lot of yourself if you can ascertain the intelligence of a poster by a few posts (you can look those words up if you like), or that fact that they disagree with you, and if you think there is “violence” in those words than god knows what you think of most of the posters on KB.

Your right I don’t care about anybody but myself, family and friends just like everyone else. You don’t care about me and I don’t care about you, but that doesn’t mean I go around breaking into houses or do drugs or assaulting people or not care when it happens to other people.
The reason for this is I don’t think my life is any more important than the next persons just like theirs is not any more important than mine.
Everyone has the right to have a nice happy life free from people who do not want to abide by the laws of the land, and have the right to punish the perpetrators that choose not to.

Oh and before you have a go at someone’s reading and comprehension skills you should proof read what you have just written.

[Banditbandit]

Oh and before you have a go at someone’s reading and comprehension skills you should proof read what you have just written.

Fell about laughing ... Yeah mate .... dsylxeic fingers ... don't take it too seriously - I bullshit here just as much as anyone else ...

[BoristheBiter]

Fell about laughing ... Yeah mate .... dsylxeic fingers ... don't take it too seriously - I bullshit here just as much as anyone else ...

You got that right

[bones135]

In light of the fact that two po po were out doing their jobs today and got shot for their troubles, why THE HELL shouldn't they be strapped as a matter of course? Glock on the hip, shotguns in the car, and a decent anti ballistic vest?

Even two fucking muppets with a few pot plants and psychiatric trouble have a .22 and a .308 these days. These guys had their Taser (oh yeah, in the CAR!)

As a taxpayer, I am happy to fund this, providing the proper training at inception (and ongoing) is provided. My money would be better spent on this than that fucker who is on legal aid in prison getting $20k.

I dont often post what I really think, but this is one time I have.

Oh, and this prick that shot the police dog? Bullet in the head.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3913189/Officers-shot-dog-killed-in-Christchurch
I totally agree, our police need weapons for their own safety & as for shooting a police dog...or any dog for that matter....lock the a/holes up & throw away the keys.
Would be interested in a poll though to see what others think regarding cops & guns.

[crystalball]

mayby police bikes could get an idea off this beast.

[98tls]

Why fuck about with guns anway,the carpet bombing of a few select suburbs would improve life greatly for many.

[Maha]

Why fuck about with guns anway,the carpet bombing of a few select suburbs would improve life greatly for many.

Can I nominate Reefton?
Ok theres a bit of history there with the that light thing but...
What elese does it offer the Country?

[98tls]

Can I nominate Reefton?
Ok theres a bit of history there with the that light thing but...
What elese does it offer the Country?

Yep why not,never had a problem with the place myself though and have a few times ridden over to the coast then carried on and stayed there the night then back home the next day.If Reeftons on the list then we might just as well include New Plymouth,its kinda like a big Reefton and like Reefton everybodys related.:shutup:

[Maha]

Yep why not,never had a problem with the place myself though and have a few times ridden over to the coast then carried on and stayed there the night then back home the next day.If Reeftons on the list then we might just as well include New Plymouth,its kinda like a big Reefton and like Reefton everybodys related.:shutup:

Well yeah, I can see your reasoning Mike...
Clutha/Bennydale and certain parts of Wanganui are on the list also.

[98tls]

Dunedin might just as well go as well,hate the place and though i only live a 100 odd kms away i havent ventured down there for years.Theres a few parts of Christchurch can go,Ashburton or at least a good part of it (its so bloody long and at 50kph my wrists ache by the time i am through it),let me think...........yep Auckland and Wellington might just as well be removed as well.About it for now.

[scumdog]

Why fuck about with guns anway,the carpet bombing of a few select suburbs would improve life greatly for many.

There ain't enough carpet bombs in NZ to do a decent job of it....

[Dave Lobster]

There ain't enough carpet bombs in NZ to do a decent job of it....

The flying carpet riding bombers are all in Mt Roskill... We'd benefit from that being first on the list.

[Pixie]

What we're saying is "at least give the poor sad-ass po po SOME option when confronted with a crazed fucktard with a gun" Presently, all they can do is pull down their mirror shades and bristle their moustache at the crackhead.

.

Oh no! Not the bristle.
Isn't that classed along with the motorcyclist's "withering stare" and banned by the Geneva Convention?

[SMOKEU]

The cop who got shot in the face was packing heat at the time he got shot. He got ambushed and didn't have time to draw his gun.

[Bikemad]

In light of the fact that two po po were out doing their jobs today and got shot for their troubles, why THE HELL shouldn't they be strapped as a matter of course? Glock on the hip, shotguns in the car, and a decent anti ballistic vest?



http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3913189/Officers-shot-dog-killed-in-Christchurch
can you explain to me how arming these two officers would have made a difference or are you suggesting the police should approach every incident guns drawn ready for a gunfight????

[scumdog]

The cop who got shot in the face was packing heat at the time he got shot. He got ambushed and didn't have time to draw his gun.

I'm glad you were there to see what actually happened.....:blink:

Now we wil know the truth of it all:shifty:

[SMOKEU]

I'm glad you were there to see what actually happened.....:blink:

Now we wil know the truth of it all:shifty:

I wasn't there when it happened, but I have some inside information.

[BoristheBiter]

I wasn't there when it happened, but I have some inside information.

You can't really call TVNZ inside information.

[SMOKEU]

You can't really call TVNZ inside information.

I know a current patched member of the NZ Police who shed some light on the circumstances of that event.

[HenryDorsetCase]

can you explain to me how arming these two officers would have made a difference or are you suggesting the police should approach every incident guns drawn ready for a gunfight????

these guys knew they were on a drug bust at the time, so yeah, pretty much.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I know a current patched member of the NZ Police who shed some light on the circumstances of that event.

interesting turn of phrase, presumably deliberate.

[SMOKEU]

interesting turn of phrase, presumably deliberate.

They're a crips gang, just look at their colours. New Zealand's biggest gang.

[BoristheBiter]

I know a current patched member of the NZ Police who shed some light on the circumstances of that event.

funny that, i'm sure they left the gun in the car and just had the tazer.
But then your information must be better than mine.

[Banditbandit]

I know a current patched member of the NZ Police who shed some light on the circumstances of that event.

I'm sure the ranks of the NZ police (love the phrase ... fell about laughing ) are just as full of rumours and misinformation as the rest of us. Unless s/he was there, they don't know ...

[Banditbandit]

They're a crips gang, just look at their colours. New Zealand's biggest gang.

Can you point me at one of there tinie houses then? I'm sure they'll be safer than shopping from the bloods ..

[SMOKEU]

Can you point me at one of there tinie houses then? I'm sure they'll be safer than shopping from the bloods ..

I'm sure your local Police gang pad will have plenty of drugs they have confiscated off criminals.

[Bikemad]

these guys knew they were on a drug bust at the time, so yeah, pretty much.

thats not how i understand it.............i thought they went to that house to ask about the whereabouts of the neighbour who they were seeking when they smelt the weed so decided to enforce the misuse of drugs act and enter the house then got shot at for their troubles

[HenryDorsetCase]

thats not how i understand it.............i thought they went to that house to ask about the whereabouts of the neighbour who they were seeking when they smelt the weed so decided to enforce the misuse of drugs act and enter the house then got shot at for their troubles

yes, so they knew there were drugs involved. On the basis that assumption is the mother of all fuckups, knowing there are drugs there, one might infer there may be drug dealers, and perhaps firearms: thus a tactical response might be required.

But hey, I watch a lot of TV and movies, and my knowledge of police tactics and SOP is formed by watching 7 seasons of "The Shield" and five seasons of "The Wire", what the fuck do I know?

[red mermaid]

You got that dead right.



yes, so they knew there were drugs involved. On the basis that assumption is the mother of all fuckups, knowing there are drugs there, one might infer there may be drug dealers, and perhaps firearms: thus a tactical response might be required.

But hey, I watch a lot of TV and movies, and my knowledge of police tactics and SOP is formed by watching 7 seasons of "The Shield" and five seasons of "The Wire", what the fuck do I know?

[HenryDorsetCase]

You got that dead right.

Cheer up. :)

[Banditbandit]

yes, so they knew there were drugs involved. On the basis that assumption is the mother of all fuckups, knowing there are drugs there, one might infer there may be drug dealers, and perhaps firearms: thus a tactical response might be required.

But hey, I watch a lot of TV and movies, and my knowledge of police tactics and SOP is formed by watching 7 seasons of "The Shield" and five seasons of "The Wire", what the fuck do I know?

Naa .. smelling cannabis doesn't support the inference that there might be dealers or firearms ...

It just supports the idea that someone in the house has possession of, and is smoking, cannabis ... that's illegal right there ... plenty of dope smokers I know what be horrified at your inferences .. all good clean citizens who go to work in suits ...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Naa .. smelling cannabis doesn't support the inference that there might be dealers or firearms ...

It just supports the idea that someone in the house has possession of, and is smoking, cannabis ... that's illegal right there ... plenty of dope smokers I know what be horrified at your inferences .. all good clean citizens who go to work in suits ...

you know that and I know that. The point I was trying to make was that from a tactical perspective, it seems to me that a cop should assume a worst case scenario, rather than the best case.

Of course if there was a full on tactical response, then allegations of pleece brooootality would ensue.

So the answer in the immortal words of the Stepping Razor, Mr Peter Tosh:

nGsEt-qtOqs

great song too.

[scumdog]

They're a crips gang, just look at their colours. New Zealand's biggest gang.

And don't you forget it!

[Headbanger]

You got that dead right.

Yeah, But he's not the silly fucker who got himself shot in the face....

[SS90]

these guys knew they were on a drug bust at the time, so yeah, pretty much.

Erm, no, as we all understand it, they where looking for information about a neighbor they where trying to locate, and, as has been mentioned smelled Pot at the address, and as such, where obliged to enter the premises.

I am pretty sure that in NZ, the majority of events involving Police officers "stumbling across" pot smokers don't involve Police officers getting shot.

Major growing operations (generally speaking) don't take place in Suburban locations, and they just stumbled upon a guy who was mentally ill, and what happened, happened.

I am of the opinion that the best way to stop this happening is tighter gun control, and requiring gun owners to have extremely high level of protection for their firearms (in the case of robbery)

Don't give all cops guns, we saw what happened when we gave them Pepper Spray and Tazers.

[SMOKEU]

And don't you forget it!

It wasn't meant to be an insult either.

[Headbanger]

Don't give all cops guns, we saw what happened when we gave them Pepper Spray and Tazers.

Date rape?

[Patrick]

... Don't give all cops guns, we saw what happened when we gave them Pepper Spray and Tazers.

Wot? Bad guys got pepper sprayed and tasered?

[Banditbandit]

you know that and I know that. The point I was trying to make was that from a tactical perspective, it seems to me that a cop should assume a worst case scenario, rather than the best case.

Of course if there was a full on tactical response, then allegations of pleece brooootality would ensue.

So the answer in the immortal words of the Stepping Razor, Mr Peter Tosh:



great song too.

Oh yeah ... quote one of my favourite artists at me ... wrote all the best songs that most people think are Marley's ...

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oh yeah ... quote one of my favourite artists at me ... wrote all the best songs that most people think are Marley's ...

I am more of a ska fan than a reggae fan, but Ive got a few best ofs, and stuff by Delroy Wilson, Tosh, Saint Bob, Toots, Jimmy Cliff etc.

Actually started with my love of The Clash. Their covers of "Pressure Drop" and "Police and Thieves" spun me off into a whole genre of music I had no idea existed.

[Banditbandit]

I am more of a ska fan than a reggae fan, but Ive got a few best ofs, and stuff by Delroy Wilson, Tosh, Saint Bob, Toots, Jimmy Cliff etc.

Actually started with my love of The Clash. Their covers of "Pressure Drop" and "Police and Thieves" spun me off into a whole genre of music I had no idea existed.

Gawd you sound nearly as old as me ... Love the Clash .. saw Toots and the Maytells live in Welington ... Got all those artists ... but I was into reggae before The Clash covers .. brings back memories ...

Way off topic ..