Are they really out to kill us?

[Katman]

I wonder whether the mantra "treat every driver like they're out to kill you" is holding us back.

Although I fully believe that we should treat every other road user with a healthy dose of caution I think that seeing them as potential killers is merely perpetuating the "us versus them" mentality.

A more harmonious relationship between everyone on the road would work heavily in our favour and could be helped into fruition by looking at car drivers as more than just "fucking cagers".

If we want them to treat us with respect perhaps it's time we offered the same in return.

[bikemike]

I wonder whether the mantra "treat every driver like they're out to kill you" is holding us back.Absolutely.


Although I fully believe that we should treat every other road user with a healthy dose of caution I think that seeing them as potential killers is merely perpetuating the "us versus them" mentality.

A more harmonious relationship between everyone on the road would work heavily in our favour and could be helped into fruition by looking at car drivers as more than just "fucking cagers".

If we want them to treat us with respect perhaps it's time we offered the same in return.


Respect where it's due though, and that includes benefit of the doubt.

Goes without saying.
What prompted the post...?

[PirateJafa]

A small amount of hyperbole to reinforce the notion in a learner of riding cautiously and defensively is more than worth any "alleged" negative side-effects.

[Katman]

A small amount of hyperbole to reinforce the notion in a learner of riding cautiously and defensively is more than worth any "alleged" negative side-effects.

I'm sure there's just as effective ways of druming the concept of caution into learners without portraying all car drivers as intent on murder.

[spacemonkey]

I'm sure there's just as effective ways of druming the concept of caution into learners without portraying all car drivers as intent on murder.

Possibly, but it is the current "path of least resistance" when it comes to grabbing the munters attention.

[Katman]

The idea that "they're out to kill us" is what produces the "fucking cagers" attitude that leads to the animosity that is adding to the risks that we face on the road.

[Milts]

How about intent on negligent manslaughter?

[bikemike]

I'm sure there's just as effective ways of druming the concept of caution into learners without portraying all car drivers as intent on murder.

What about More effective?

Invisible

[porky]

the more wheels, the less harmonious things become.

[Katman]

A small amount of hyperbole to reinforce the notion in a learner of riding cautiously and defensively is more than worth any "alleged" negative side-effects.

The danger lies in hyperbole becoming belief.

[Katman]

Is the excuse "the fucking cager didn't see me" just a method of glossing over our own inability to adequately identify and assess a hazardous situation?

One that we can then use to support the "out to kill us" theory.

Maybe, instead of teaching motorcyclists to look at others as potential killers of them we should be concentrating on teaching motorcyclists to become potential saviours of themselves.

[Usarka]

I like to pat wolves because sometimes they are nice.

[Katman]

That's lovely dear.

[jonbuoy]

A better one is assume every car on the road can´t see you.

[Katman]

A better one is assume every car on the road can´t see you.

I think that one gives us far greater scope to share the road amicably.

[spacemonkey]

I think that one gives us far greater scope to share the road amicably.

When in doubt whip ya fluro out??? :blink:

[Katman]

When in doubt whip ya fluro out??? :blink:

I'll settle for compensating for drivers inabilities by increasing my own awareness.

[spacemonkey]

So essentially just the original phrase you hate minus the hyperbole is what that sounds like.

[Katman]

So essentially just the original phrase you hate minus the hyperbole is what that sounds like.

It's not so much the phrase that bothers me but rather the attitude that it engenders towards the way we look upon the others we get to share the road with.

Some of us give a wave of thanks to car drivers who move over to let us pass - others simply think "that's right you fucking cager, get the fuck out of my way".

It's not hard to figure out which attitude is going to serve us better in the long run.

[Urano]

The idea that "they're out to kill us" is what produces the "fucking cagers" attitude that leads to the animosity that is adding to the risks that we face on the road.

actually, i've got the "fuckin cagers" attitude even when i'm on a cage...
:)

no, truly, i can agree with the sense of your post, and in a perfect world i'd lead a standing ovation for that...

but...

there are three problems, in my opinion.

the first is concerning the ability. driving licenses are (here in italy at least) given without any real proof of capacity to drive the car. the most difficult and terrifying part of the exams, the one that you can hear youths complain about, is often the "S park". "the examiner asked me an s park! what a bastard! i've been lucky and i did it...!"
nothing about an emergency brakin, an obstacle pass within a turn, nothing about night driving...
the consequence is that the most of the drivers have little to very low driving capacity, that get scared about the abs pumping on the pedal, that leave the wheel when scared, that don't actually know where to look to search others on the road.
this is true for motorcyclist too, obviously.
but biker have then a forced improvement, due to two factor: the darwinian factor and the passion factor.
darwin comes in because biker with little to no riding capacity often will die, and so it comes clear that those who will survive are often better (and luckier) drivers.
the passion comes in because a bike is rarely a simple "transport" as on the other side the car is often. the bike is something more, is something that push you to be better on the road, to ride better, to improve, to read, to learn, to go to the track to test your capacity, to enlist in a riding school to get tips and advices...
how many corolla or kia drivers do you know who have been to a track day to improve their driving techniques?

the second concerns the upmentioned darwinian factor.
bikers with less capacity happens that die, we said. but unfortunately pretty frequently the normally talented biker will die too, or the good rider that have the bad fate to meet a little to no driving capacity cager.
this happens simply because in the event of a crash car-to-bike we are the weak part, and rarely a cager would pay with life his error of passing over a innocent biker...
so they'll always be "the ones that kill us", and this is not so useful for the respect thing...

the last is that a lot of cagers envy the possibilities of a bike: to filter queue, to find parking next to the entrance, to pay not the parking ticket, or, simply, to be fun, always forgetting about the ice and the showers in winter and the sweat and bees in the helmet during summer...
so we'll always be "those bastards that do whatever they want on the road"...

i agree with you on one point: we can do more to be respected and appreciated leaving stupid and annoying habits behind...

[Katman]

so they'll always be "the ones that kill us", and this is not so useful for the respect thing...



I agree that sometimes car drivers are "the ones that kill us" but.........

Considering the number of car drivers out there, the number that are actually killing us is very small. And of that number the ones that are killing us intentionally is even smaller.



the last is that a lot of cagers envy the possibilities of a bike: to filter queue, to find parking next to the entrance, to pay not the parking ticket, or, simply, to be fun, always forgetting about the ice and the showers in winter and the sweat and bees in the helmet during summer...
so we'll always be "those bastards that do whatever they want on the road"...


While there definately is a number of car drivers out there who dislike motorcyclists intensely I don't believe for a second that the reason has anything to do with jealously. It is far more likely to stem from (a) the manner in which they have witnessed us treating the road (b) the number of times that they have had to take evasive action to avoid our stupidity and (c) the damage we do to their cars from the likes of inconsiderate lane-splitting..

[Berries]

I wonder whether the mantra "treat every driver like they're out to kill you" is holding us back.

A more harmonious relationship between everyone on the road would work heavily in our favour and could be helped into fruition by looking at car drivers as more than just "fucking cagers".
I think that treating every driver as if they are out to kill you is a good riding, or even driving, philosophy. Assume they are going to do the unexpected, ride accordingly, and you're more likely to get home in one piece. Defensive riding is all it comes down to. Most of the time that something unexpected happens it isn't on purpose, they aren't actually trying to kill you, but they make a mistake or just don't see you. That is the reality of being on a bike.

As for "fucking cagers" I think that's just a KB term. If you ride around with that attitude then you aren't going to enjoy your trip and in my view that aggressive trait is going to see you more likely to become involved in something unpleasant. You reap what you sow.

[Katman]

Assume they are going to do the unexpected, ride accordingly,

Isn't this ^ sufficient though?

[Katman]

The concept that drivers are out to kill us is the seed of animosity that grows until it inevitably spills over into the motorcyclist over-reacting aggressively towards a car driver's genuine mistake - because in their own mind, that mistake just reinforces the idea that the car drivers actions were intentional.

It's not like we don't ever make genuine mistakes ourselves.

[jellywrestler]

One of the problems out there is as motorcyclists we are more aware of what's going on around especially when we are out for a ride for a rides sake; concentrating on riding and enjoying the moment.
Most people in cars are going from A to B. they're not interested in driving they have to do it and often have other distractions both physical in their cars, kids radio food etc, and in their head which in their world is getting more attention than driving. Riders as mentioned are mostly applying all of their headspace on the job at hand and simply fail to judge that motorists are not up to their level of concentration and awareness, a dangerous assumption....

[Spearfish]

The concept that drivers are out to kill us is the seed of animosity that grows until it inevitably spills over into the motorcyclist over-reacting aggressively towards a car driver's genuine mistake.

It's not like we don't ever make genuine mistakes ourselves.

I mentioned a rider of a motard style bike some time ago carving up traffic and tapping on roofs...
one intersection he was filtering through parked cars at 60+kph and got the green two cars from the front so he gunned it, the cars on a free left turn that would normally have plenty of time were suddenly in the path of a bike at 80+kph (50kph zone) so a big swerve by the car bigger serve by the bike into oncoming traffic causing them to swerve, a big compounding mess, to finish the event he tapped the roof of second oncoming car gave them the fingers and buggered off.
It detrimentally changed my commute to the point of getting subtle retaliation with cars closing gaps at lights that would normally be either left open or even made larger. If I see them give me room they get a wave, simple shyt really.
None of the motard riding was remotely normal neither was the retaliation but if I hadn't seen the rider I could have assumed the cagers are out to "get me" because of -- fill in what ever here here-- but its sorted given some time.

[R-Soul]

Isn't this ^ sufficient though?

I agree with your pont that making them out to be hunter-killer types can only create a belligerent environment where mutual respect (yes us respecting them too - even if its just because they are bigger than us) is probably not going to happen.

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.

Any more?

[Spearfish]

I agree with your pont that making them out to be hunter-killer types can only create a belligerent environment where mutual respect (yes us respecting them too - even if its just because they are bigger than us) is probably not going to happen.

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.

Any more?

Communists

[Katman]

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.

Any more?

Sorry but, apart from the first one, those sayings could equally apply to motorcyclists.

[Ronin]

Had an interesting conversation with Foxzee about this the other night. How many of us have missed seeing a bike when driving a car? I know I have.

I don't assume all cagers are out to kill me but I do assume they haven't seen me and do all that I can to make it easy for them to do so. Still there are times when they don't.

For the record, I always toot and wave to acknowledge someone that has moved over to let me pass.

[bogan]

Had an interesting conversation with Foxzee about this the other night. How many of us have missed seeing a bike when driving a car? I know I have.

I don't assume all cagers are out to kill me but I do assume they haven't seen me and do all that I can to make it easy for them to do so. Still there are times when they don't.

For the record, I always toot and wave to acknowledge someone that has moved over to let me pass.

things i've missed seeing till the last minute when driving my van:
a quad (think he came from off road so wasn't expecting it)
a pedestrain (he came sprinting across the pedestrian crossing)
various cages
never cut off a bike or cycle though (that i'm aware of)

Maybe cos i look for bikes and cycles rather than traffic, obviously if you're looking hard enough for the small stuff its easy to spot the big ones too. Maybe thats the problem with cagers, they don't look for the small stuff as they don't have any dealings with it.

So are they out to kill us, no, but they don't try too hard not too either!

[Lissa]

LOVE and peace, respect all and get respect in return, karma and all that...in a perfect or boring world all humans would think and act the same . Humans discriminate because of race, religion, colour of their hair, their disabilities, their sex, or the vehicle they drive I dont think I have ever meet someone who hasnt had some type of stereotype or grudge against someone else for any of these reasons. Its human nature and it can never be changed. I say this because as a motorcyclist myself when I see some dickhead on a bike (while I am in a cage) doing something twatty then yea I think what a fucken retard - not because hes ON a bike, but because hes being a RETARD ON A BIKE. Same for people doing the same thing in a cage. The only way around it is to make a law that only respectful, trustworthy, non prone to getting distracted people can own a bike.

[tide]

I guess it comes down to attitude,

if you ride with the belief that every cage is out to "kill" you then 1 you've made an assumption that they have actually seen you and are going to purposely try and push/drive you off the road etc, then 2ndly your attitude on the road is aggressive and not conducive to sharing the road with other road uses.

if you ride with the belief that you are invisible then your whole riding style become more defensive, you become more aware of what is around you, etc and I believe safer to yourself and others around you.

Deon

[DarkLord]

This is something I've been thinking of lately also.

When you are faced with someone who has done something stupid in a car, you don't really know anything about them or who they are and it is so easy to just project your frustrations at the mistake they have made onto them and judge and characterize them as a person through that. They might be a perfectly nice person with a brilliant driving record who makes their first mistake in 20 years of driving, and you just happen to see it, so it is easy to project onto them a judgment of being a "Useless F&*$ing Cager" and "some hateful c*nt who hates bikes and is out to kill me".

I have thought of my own reactions towards car drivers and realized how foolish I would have felt if the person in the car had turned out to be a relative or someone that I knew really well, just perhaps in a car I didn't recognise. All of a sudden I've gone and judged them for being something they really aren't and I've made a complete arse of myself. Fortunately that hasn't happened but it's something to keep in mind.

[Maha]

'Are they really out to kill us'?

Interesting question...:blink:
If this question is found to indeed be the case, then surely it shows intent?
Lawfully showing intent to commit murder (if they are out to kill us that is) is punishable by a term in jail, any Judge in the land would agree.:mellow:

[maggot]

Its a mantra designed to make you more aware of potential threats and ride defensively to protect yourself.
If you're thick enough to take it to heart, why are you on the road and not crouching by the motorway with a gun trying to kill the fuckers before they can get you?

It all just comes down to how seriously you wanna take it. It's an expression, not literal, don't take it to heart..

[beyond]

Most of us motorcylists drive cars frequently and if all motorists were motorcyclists, we would all live a lot longer. Having said that, I've been cutoff by a "cager" who later pulled up alongside me at the gasser and apologised, saying he never saw me and was a motorcyclist himself.

Before anyone says I must have been going too fast I was riding exactly to the speed limit and slowed as I approached the intersection where this happened. The driver eyeballed me and proceeded to just pull out right in front of me.

I always wave at drivers that pull over and give me room when they see me behind them and always try to engender a biker thankful attitude.

Trouble is, more often than not, they just don't see you.

[j_redley]

I only just saw this thread and havent seen the rest of the thread but.... I do find it annoying when Motorcyclists who ride everywhere, as opposed to those of us who also drive (cars, trucks and busses when the need arises for me) treat those of us who use car's in anyform like idiots.

I know for a fact that having ridden motorbikes makes me much more aware when Im in the car, and I know others are the same. I wouldn't say that they are really out to kill us, I'd just say be as cautious of others as always, its the same in cars as bikes, with the exception being that it'd hurt more if your on a bike than it would in a car.

[caseye]

OK Katman, ya got me! While I take the mantra " all cagers are out to kill me' seriously I too dont take it as gospel and I don't crouch on the side of the road with a gun.Indeed if cager/motorists in cars move over for me or otherwise behave with respect I reciprcate.
A poster sometime back did say and i tend to agree withn him, that the mantra is only a guide, thats how I've always used it.
Anything to improve motorcycle / motorvehicle relations is a good thing.
While changing attitudes will reap benefits long term,to simply tell motorcyclists not to worry about car/truck, bus drivers is ill informed and will lead to more of our less experienced riders being killed for lack of awareness on thier part of what can and does happena round cars etc.
Your point is a good one.

[Katman]

to simply tell motorcyclists not to worry about car/truck, bus drivers is ill informed and will lead to more of our less experienced riders being killed for lack of awareness on thier part of what can and does happena round cars etc.


Where did I ever say that? :blink:

[caseye]

Where did I ever say that? :blink:

You didn't.Others here in KB land seem to thinkit's just a storm in a tea cup and it all comes down to personal responsibility.I agree with the responsibility part, not the don't worry part.

[Berries]

Perhaps the saying should be:

Cage drivers are:
- blinded by blind spots on their cars
- criminally unaware of their surroundings (most of the time) ,
- largely inexperienced
- prone to mistakes
- largely selfish in what they are doing.
Funny that. In a different Katman thread last week I questioned how many crashes were actually caused by racing on the road and so decided to find out. I have since started looking at all crashes last year resulting in injury involving both a motorbike and travelling too fast for the conditions as a factor. Been going through each individual crash report to see why ‘speed’ was recorded against the crash and pick up any other causal factors.

Still a fair way to go before drawing any proper conclusions, and I’m getting bored already, but based on what I have seen so far there are way too many crashes where largely inexperienced riders (no licence or learner) make simple mistakes. Like not being able to turn at an intersection and remain in the correct lane. Any criticism you can throw at car drivers can just as easily be thrown at riders as well. If you change the word cars to bikes on that first one then all five are relevant to bikes.

[Boob Johnson]

Its a mantra designed to make you more aware of potential threats and ride defensively to protect yourself.
If you're thick enough to take it to heart, why are you on the road and not crouching by the motorway with a gun trying to kill the fuckers before they can get you?

It all just comes down to how seriously you wanna take it. It's an expression, not literal, don't take it to heart..
Oh thank the lord there is someone else with a bit of common sense! :clap:

Too all the newbies: Katman makes threads (and massive baseless assumptions) like this on a fairly regular basis. KB'er forum is his soapbox.

Katman you'd be better off spending all this hot air where it could do some good real good by writing letters to your local MP, you may also gain a bit of respect in the process. You could get the licensing board to finally pull their heads in & revamp the licensing system. What this country needs is to stop putting the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff & actually make people jump through hoops to get a license to be on our roads, both bikers & cagers alike. If you are genuine in wanting to fix our problems then try actually doing something about it. Your mad rants are just that.

[R-Soul]

Funny that. In a different Katman thread last week I questioned how many crashes were actually caused by racing on the road and so decided to find out. I have since started looking at all crashes last year resulting in injury involving both a motorbike and travelling too fast for the conditions as a factor. Been going through each individual crash report to see why ‘speed’ was recorded against the crash and pick up any other causal factors.

Still a fair way to go before drawing any proper conclusions, and I’m getting bored already, but based on what I have seen so far there are way too many crashes where largely inexperienced riders (no licence or learner) make simple mistakes. Like not being able to turn at an intersection and remain in the correct lane. Any criticism you can throw at car drivers can just as easily be thrown at riders as well. If you change the word cars to bikes on that first one then all five are relevant to bikes.

good point - those ACC stats about how most of the crashes are by riders alone says a lot about our criminal ignorance as well.

[Bass]

Been going through each individual crash report to see why ‘speed’ was recorded against the crash and pick up any other causal factors.


Wow!
Getting the facts straight before putting mouth into gear (figuratively speaking).
We don't see that very often in this asylum.

[R-Soul]

Wow!
Getting the facts straight before putting mouth into gear (figuratively speaking).
We don't see that very often in this asylum.

I have to admit I was impressed.

[FROSTY]

In another thread Katman you hit the nail squarely on the head.
For new or born again bikers you need to KISS it because overcomplication means they have to think through options before they react.
Its simple and to the point --Ride as if everybody and everything else is out to kill you.
A person will (should) react in a personally lifesaving manner if thats their mindset.

Instilling that mindset into new bikers may I agree longterm have issues with attitudes.
But frankly its a risk I'm happy to take if it means that the rider concerned stays alive long enough to have time to come to your very valid conclusion.

No they aren't all out to kill us. Some (very few) would be happy to cause injury even arguably death to riders. Some will cause injury/death due to being oblivious to riders.
Most will at some point do something silly that may if the stars are alighned just wrong will cause death/injury to riders.
As an older/more experienced rider I've thought that through and come to those conclusions myself.
I apreciate that a lot of the time too you are correct it isn't "them" thats the problem its the rider concerned.

[Berries]

Wow!
Getting the facts straight before putting mouth into gear (figuratively speaking).
We don't see that very often in this asylum.
Don't be too impressed. I have access to the same stats that the MOT use and know how to interrogate them properly so was just doing it out of interest.

[Katman]

Don't be too impressed. I have access to the same stats that the MOT use and know how to interrogate them properly so was just doing it out of interest.

I'm looking forward to hearing your verdict.

[Katman]

For new or born again bikers you need to KISS it because overcomplication means they have to think through options before they react.


I don't see "treat every car driver with extreme caution" as any more complicated than "treat every car driver as though they're out to kill you".

The only difference between them is that the first one is far less likely to engender a sense of contempt.

And it is that sense of contempt that is creating the 'us versus them' mentality.

[Owl]

A more harmonious relationship between everyone on the road would work heavily in our favour and could be helped into fruition by looking at car drivers as more than just "fucking cagers".

For sure!:eek5:

[Hotchefnz]

I'm not the best rider, I ride within my limits, yep have been known to have a "yipee" and after 26 years of riding and driving without an accident call myself lucky.

I'm curteous to fellow drivers, riders and animals where needed - but am seriously considering trading my helmet in for a FKN cage - why?

Because of the Fkn idiots out there who see a bike rider and think "choice race time" in the past 6 months I've had more scares than I have in the past 20 years - people have no fkn idea that bike riders actually want to live, want to go home and see our kids, and go home and jump on the other bike for a ride.......

I came close to having a drunk run up my arse a couple of months ago.
After that came the stolen plates on a different car treying to run me into the cheese-cutters.

So while I hate the idea - thought okay I will make myself more visable and went out last Saturday morning and brought a strada bike jacket - FLURO - understatement.
Nice jacket, good price ( by the way visit TSS for a bargin ) and thought okay cant Fkn miss seeing me now. - WRONG.

Monday afternoon travelling on highway 47 back into Turangi and this Fkn idiot starts tail gating me on the windies above Waihi village - now the road is narrow, its icey as shit on these roads at the moment so slow down to let him pass - nah he dont want to do that.

As we go into the windies he closes right on my arse and as I brake before entering the bend this Fkn idiot taps the rear of my bike sending me and "the love of my life" down the road and through a 4x4 sign post.
Then the Fucker doesn't even stop and does a fkn runner.

Bike is yet to be acessed, but the under body is pretty banged up and 6 months of waxing and cleaning is a scuffed broken mess BUT walked away only bruised, sore - but I'm fucken sure if I get back on a bike or car and another Fkn ignorent prick scares the shit out of me again I will ensure the fucker goes home to change his fkn underpants cause I'm sick of the bullshit "sensible" bike riders are having to put up with.

To many innocent riders are being killed by Fkn bad driving, ignorent drivers, and kids wanting a race - I'm happy to do time, cause if another fucker does this or comes close to doing this to me again I'm gona follow the prick and show him some LOVE.

[PrincessBandit]

I'm not the best rider, I ride within my limits, ...........

...................... cause if another fucker does this or comes close to doing this to me again I'm gona follow the prick and show him some LOVE.

Sorry, zoned out there for a bit. Are you sure you don't have some impossible-to-resist message taped to the back of your jacket? You know, like old fogies used to to do in their youth like sticking "kick me" on the back of some unsuspecting dude's shirt?

[sugilite]

Humans make mistakes, ride accordingly :scooter:

[dipshit]

The idea that "they're out to kill us" is what produces the "fucking cagers" attitude that leads to the animosity that is adding to the risks that we face on the road.

And encourage those riders that think it is ok to throw tantrums in traffic and kick mirrors off and doors in on any car that pisses them off.

Even the rises of "streetfighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "streetfighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???

[_Shrek_]

I don't see "treat every car driver with extreme caution" as any more complicated than "treat every car driver as though they're out to kill you".

The only difference between them is that the first one is far less likely to engender a sense of contempt.

And it is that sense of contempt that is creating the 'us versus them' mentality.

I do agree with your statment Km, & use that, but when you get ignorant bugga's both old & young, male & female, fail to give way on rounderbouts even though you're doing a stoppie so you don't get run down, it's dam hard not to think the latter especially when they say i didn't see you when if fact they were just to bloody lazy to stop, or as i've heard for the 2nd time in 37 years of riding you're on a bike....

[davebullet]

People are out to kill me, whether I'm riding or not.

[Dare]

And encourage those riders that think it is ok to throw tantrums in traffic and kick mirrors off and doors in on any car that pisses them off.

Even the rises of "streetfighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "streetfighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???
Welcome to popular culture and marketing 101. Sex and violence sell.
No one buys a drink called sex on the beach expecting to get laid, why the assumption that you would buy a streetfighter in order to fight?

[motorbyclist]

firstly, i don't think that using the mantra "treat cagers like they're out to kill you" necessarily leads to the "fuckn cagers" attitude that KM is talking about. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the link in concrete.

When I started road riding (after a few years on dirt) my old man said "treat everyone like an idiot; they're blind and will do the stupidest thing possible at the worst possible times"

I've since shortened that to "assume they looked but didn't see you and ARE going to make that stupid move".

It's worked to avoid many near misses happening in the first place, and helped when near misses do occur (although some of those I would put down to dirt riding experience; ie riding competence)

However, I'm still partial to a good "Fucking wanker tried to run me over etc etc" rant. They're mostly fucking idiots, oblivious to their surroundings and the danger they pose to others - seriously, I doubt it's just a small minority... during the "school traffic" hours I'd say these idiots are in the majority of road users and this is even visible from sitting in a cage.

I've also seen a lot of total fuckwits riding motorcycles creating a hazard for themselves and antagonising traffic, and many scooter riders are on par with the average cager (suggesting credence to the earlier posts mentioning passion). This doesn't help the attitude for cagers towards us.

So, while I would agree that "assume drivers have not seen you, prepare for the worst" is a more useful mindset than "assume he's going to try and knock you", I wouldn't say that without the latter we'd all be good friends with useless drivers.

All in all, I'd estimate about 80% or more if the near misses and accidents I witness could have been avoided given an actual driver training regime, especially for motorcyclists in both single and multi-vehicle accidents. The "defensive driving" course is a joke.


Can't we all just gang up on those dirty cyclists instead? Pricks somehow got green spots at the front of traffic lights in the last 5 years so they can hold up traffic while we've had to sit between cars for decades(!) despite accelerating faster!

[DMNTD]

Even the rises of "street fighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "street fighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???

I guess it's a bit like guys that right hyper/super sports bikes on the road....mostly "attitude" with no real gains in so called 'real world' riding. Lets face it,the speed limit is a mere 100kmph.

If everyone road all that they 'needed' on the road all that we would see would be 400cc pootle machines :shutup:

[motorbyclist]

I guess it's a bit like guys that right hyper/super sports bikes on the road....mostly "attitude" with no real gains in so called 'real world' riding. Lets face it,the speed limit is a mere 100kmph.

If everyone road all that they 'needed' on the road all that we would see would be 400cc pootle machines :shutup:

as a rider of a 400cc V4 "pootle" machine I'm sick and tired of getting stuck behind riders of "super" sport bikes in twisties... same on the track too

[jonbuoy]

And encourage those riders that think it is ok to throw tantrums in traffic and kick mirrors off and doors in on any car that pisses them off.

Even the rises of "streetfighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "streetfighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???

Eh?? A "Streetfighter" bike has nothing to do with road rage or fighting, they are increasingly popular because they are good for "street" riding, upright riding position flatish bars grunty engine.

[DMNTD]

as a rider of a 400cc V4 "pootle" machine I'm sick and tired of getting stuck behind riders of "super" sport bikes in twisties... same on the track too

My point exactly :yes: ...'cept the bit re at the track :blink:

[ellipsis]

.....out in the country where sheep are as big a threat on the road as cagers, i have decided that they ,are the 'enemy', and im going to eat as many as possible....

[R-Soul]

Sorry but, apart from the first one, those sayings could equally apply to motorcyclists.

Well we also have blind spots, but we are generally more aware of our surroundings - out of sheer self preservation sometimes...

[R-Soul]

while we've had to sit between cars for decades(!) despite accelerating faster!

eeehh? thats a long traffic light!

:shit:

[avgas]

And encourage those riders that think it is ok to throw tantrums in traffic and kick mirrors off and doors in on any car that pisses them off.
Even the rises of "streetfighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.
What exactly is a "streetfighter" fighting...???
And why that mentality in the first place...???
The first rule about fightclub is.........

Nah but on a serious note - bar risers are fucken great. It is so much more comfortable and fun to ride.
I really miss having them on the bike.

[motorbyclist]

My point exactly :yes: ...'cept the bit re at the track :blink:

doing ART days at puke it was the case - nearly rear ended a ducati who passed at the end of the straight going into the hairpin and then slammed the brakes 50m earlier than expected :shit:

[DMNTD]

doing ART days at puke it was the case - nearly rear ended a ducati who passed at the end of the straight going into the hairpin and then slammed the brakes 50m earlier than expected :shit:

Heh....some people simply don't deserve their machinery :shifty:

[boomer]

So all the ferrari and lambo drivers out there are WRC drivers..??!

some idjiots think that anyone with a hyper bike ( and a hyper bike is anything other than a 400cc shittah ) should be able to ride...?! Thats a strange notion.

people with enough moolah to buy non shittahs can ride how ever they like..?! Shirley?!


I'm almost inclined to say, kids on shittah 400's shouldn't be on teh road or track, cos they RIDE SO SLOW on the straights AND twisties...?!

[boomer]

Heh....some people simply don't deserve their machinery :shifty:
:lol:

i can't believe teh same idjiots are fighting the same arguments .. time don't change a thing !

[Maha]

people with enough moolah to buy non shittahs can ride how ever they like..?! Shirley?!


Yes we can and dont call me Shirley......:shifty:

[Woodman]

Cagers arent out to kill us.
The fact is motorcycles are difficult to see at times and sometimes hit or get hit by cars.

Cars are also difficult to see at times and also hit or get hit by other cars.

The difference is that a wee fender bender between two cars generally does not end in serious injury, whereas a collision between a motorcycle and a car often ends in serious injury (or worse) to the motorcyclist.

Its a fact and unless you are a bit thick bloody obvious.
Motorcyclists are seriously at risk of serious injury in a crash with a car whether it is the car drivers fault or not. Get over it.

[caseye]

Cagers arent out to kill us.
The fact is motorcycles are difficult to see at times and sometimes hit or get hit by cars.

Cars are also difficult to see at times and also hit or get hit by other cars.

The difference is that a wee fender bender between two cars generally does not end in serious injury, whereas a collision between a motorcycle and a car often ends in serious injury (or worse) to the motorcyclist.

Its a fact and unless you are a bit thick bloody obvious.
Motorcyclists are seriously at risk of serious injury in a crash with a car whether it is the car drivers fault or not. Get over it.

In a NUT SHELL ladies and gentleman, it matters not whose fault, if you are the biker it's going to HURT!
So? do everything you can to make sure it's not "YOU" they hit, oh and try not to be the one who simply goes off the end of the straight, that hurts too and it's bloody embarrasing trying to explain that one away as a cagers fault.