Are speed cameras, laser guns etc now illegal?

[Mr Merde]

From todays papers.

This man was found guilty of assault. Not because he threatened who he thought were intruders in his house, with an air pistol, but because in doing so he shone a laser light on them and that was the assault.

Correct me if I am wrong but dont most methods of guaging the speed of a moving vehicle involve shining a light upon it.

By this ruling then those persons shining the light are now guilty of assault.

Bring it on.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10660417

[Devil]

It doesn't say anything about the laser being the reason for the assault charge.

[Eyegasm]

It doesn't say anything about a laser period.

Where did said laser come from?

[rustyrobot]

From the article on stuff.co.nz ...

An airgun, with a laser sight attached, was aimed at one of the two officers who entered the house.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3943072/Firearm-the-wrong-choice-judge-tells-homeowner

[skippa1]

:yes:Cant see any laser mention in there...
From the article on stuff.co.nz ...


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3943072/Firearm-the-wrong-choice-judge-tells-homeowner

[98tls]

"dont resort to using a weapon":angry:wtf should you do whip out the garden and pick them some flowers.

[Scuba_Steve]

good point, I had a mate done with "assault on a officer" for accidently shining a laser pointer into his eyes. That must mean the scamming devices are a form of assault right?

Aside from that is does make me question what tests have actually been done to prove these devises are safe to shine at people, I work alot with lasers & just because you cant see the light don't mean it aint gonna hurt/blind you. Invisible light can be dangerous even in short bursts

[Mr Merde]

The assault was not for threatening the intruders (who happened to be police) with an air pistol but for shining the laser light upon the bodies of the persons.

This was considered an assault upon their person.

So if a traffic officer shines a laser light upon your vehicle in an attempt to ascetain your velocity then they are guilty of an assault upon your person.

The law applies both ways. The police are not exempt from them because of the nature of their job.

There is also the other implication of now because of this case that "your home is not your castle", meaning that you have no rights to in any way defend it from any threat.

It was saiid that he should have dialed 111. Yeah right and 3 hours later someone might show up if they werent sent to the wrong place to start with.

[98tls]

The assault was not for threatening the intruders (who happened to be police) with an air pistol but for shining the laser light upon the bodies of the persons.

This was considered an assault upon their person.

So if a traffic officer shines a laser light upon your vehicle in an attempt to ascetain your velocity then they are guilty of an assault upon your person.

The law applies both ways. The police are not exempt from them because of the nature of their job.

:killingmeGood luck with that Sherlock.:sherlock:

[SMOKEU]

I've been assaulted by police when they shined a torch inside my mates car at night during a routine 3T. :violin::drinknsin

[onearmedbandit]

I've been assaulted by police when they shined a torch inside my mates car at night during a routine 3T. :violin::drinknsin

Do you actually realise that most of us are not 20yr olds with scanners and nothing to do but listen to police activity. 'Routine 3T'? Who are you trying to impress?

[The Pastor]

Good thing he didnt flick the lights on, with all that powerful light hurting the police.

[EJK]

No worries. Get a lightsaber. It can deflect lazers.

[Indoo]

The assault was not for threatening the intruders (who happened to be police) with an air pistol but for shining the laser light upon the bodies of the persons.

Nope.

He had just thrown a 100kg statue through a window waking up his neighbours who phoned Police suspecting something violent was happening at his house, a couple of cops turn up yelling out that they are Police. He wakes up grabs a pistol and switches on its aiming laser, cops see the laser light waving around on the walls and make the correct assumption its from a gun. They yell at him to put it down that its the Police and to put it down again, he then aims the gun at the cops chest painting it with the laser light making the cop/victim in this case believe he was about to be shot hence the assault. Remember the Judge also convicted him of unlawfully presenting a firearm at Police, which means that the Judge didn't buy his story that he didn't know they were cops.

Compare that to a brightly marked Police car at the side of the road, a cop wearing a bright day glow vest holding a bulky lazer device that is clearly not a gun and emits no visible light or anything at all that a motorist could construe as being from a firearm or capable of inflicting any force or harm to them whatsoever. Financial harm is not included.


There is also the other implication of now because of this case that "your home is not your castle", meaning that you have no rights to in any way defend it from any threat.

And yet funnily enough the Judge also stated that had he grabbed a baseball bat or other weapon he would have been well within his rights but the circumstances at the time did not make lethal force reasonable. Had they been different and it was reasonable for him to fear for his life then he would have been justified. However its the early hours of the morning, he's just thrown a 100kg statue through a double glazed window, it's probably more reasonble to expect that it's his neighbours checking on him or in this case that the two people repeatedly yelling out that they are cops actually are.

[Max Preload]

Simply yelling out 'Police' doesn't cut the mustard as far as identifying yourself, in the dark. Any fucker can do that. Besides, I'm likely to be less trusting of them than I am a burglar anyway...

Judge McGuire is clearly a fuckwit if the report is to be believed.


"Mr Graves chose a firearm. The primary purpose of firearms is to kill at a distance.

If there is a moral in this then it is `don't resort to using a weapon'.

Mr Graves would not have been convicted if he had chosen a baseball bat."

Is a baseball bat not a weapon in this situation? If I wander down the street with a baseball bat on my shoulder, will I not get stopped by Police who will tell me to 'Put down the weapon'?. Is a firearm not sports equipment when used on a range?

[Deano]

Simply yelling out 'Police' doesn't cut the mustard as far as identifying yourself, in the dark. Any fucker can do that. Besides, I'm likely to be less trusting of them than I am a burglar anyway...


What would you have them do then ? A batman light beam pointing from their utility belt ?

And what fucken burglar would enter a house after a huge commotion, then yell Police and continue to enter, knowing someone likely had a gun pointed at them...DUH.

[Max Preload]

What would you have them do then ? A batman light beam pointing from their utility belt ?

And what fucken burglar would enter a house after a huge commotion, then yell Police and continue to enter, knowing someone likely had a gun pointed at them...DUH.A cunning one...

What would you have the person who lives there do? Put down his only form of protection in the hope that the two blokes in his home, in the middle of the night, are who they said they are, only to have his head caved in?

The cops had the option of not entering the property, instead waiting for backup, like a dog unit, and that's what they should have done. They should never have even gone inside unless they had good cause to suspect there was danger to a person.

[Swoop]

good point, I had a mate done with "assault on a officer" for accidently shining a laser pointer into his eyes.
People near airports, who have been shining lasers at aircraft, are a problem in NZ.

[Indoo]

And maybe they should call out the AOS and negotiators everytime they respond to a 111 call about someone either breaking into a house or possibly a violent fight going on inside. Imagine the sort of ineffective and cowardly force we would have if it was fulled with people with your way of thinking.

And had an armed dog handler entered more than likely the guy would have ended up being shot himself.

[SMOKEU]

Who are you trying to impress?

Your mother.

[onearmedbandit]

Your mother.
The '90s called, they want their joke back.

[SMOKEU]

The '90s called, they want their joke back.

I was just taking the piss.

[neels]

This makes for amusing reading, a couple of things lead me to think the guy was more than a bit pissed.

Firstly, well done for being able to move a 100kg statue to use it to smash a window.

Secondly, why did he need to smash a window, if when the police arrived the opened the front door and came in?

And it's a bit bollocks to be charged with assault for shining a light on somebody, unless they're a vampire.

[Deano]

What would you have the person who lives there do? Put down his only form of protection in the hope that the two blokes in his home, in the middle of the night, are who they said they are, only to have his head caved in?

The cops had the option of not entering the property, instead waiting for backup, like a dog unit, and that's what they should have done. They should never have even gone inside unless they had good cause to suspect there was danger to a person.

The guy should have moved the laser off the officer (after being told too how many times ?) and waited to see the whites of their eyes (and their uniform). If it wasn't the cops then blast away.

Whether the cops should have left for their own safety is another matter entirely.

The cops thought a burglar was inside - why shouldn't they eneter and attempt to catch him ? If he was a burglar and had run out the back while the cops waited out front for backup, you'd be criticising them for not apprehending him.

[Max Preload]

The guy should have moved the laser off the officer (after being told too how many times ?) and waited to see the whites of their eyes (and their uniform). If it wasn't the cops then blast away.

Whether the cops should have left for their own safety is another matter entirely.
I don't know how many times - do you? If someone lies a lot does that mean it becomes the truth? How do you know they were in uniform? Would you be foolish enough to believe someone that has entered you home in the middle of the night and you can't actually see, is a cop because they say so and then let them get close enough to use the weapon they might be carrying that you also can't see? I sure fucking well wouldn't.


The cops thought a burglar was inside - why shouldn't they eneter and attempt to catch him ? If he was a burglar and had run out the back while the cops waited out front for backup, you'd be criticising them for not apprehending him.Among other things, like avoiding the risk of being shot, perhaps because when they go inside the burglar could easily flee because there's nobody watching outside, which is worst than your scenario whereby the two cops are both lingering at the front while the burglar runs out the back - he has twice the opportunity to get away if they enter the house.

[Deano]

That's all quite laughable dude. On this occasion I'm siding with the cops and the Judge. Case closed LOL

The dickhead is damn lucky the cops weren't armed, although he at least wouldn't have a conviction.....he'd be pushing up daisies.

[Mr Merde]

What I really need to know is

How can shining a laser light on someone be considered "ASSAULT"

and if indeed it is how can they justify the use on motorists as it would also be "ASSAULT"

[Deano]

What I really need to know is

How can shining a laser light on someone be considered "ASSAULT"

and if indeed it is how can they justify the use on motorists as it would also be "ASSAULT"

Just throwing it out there but maybe cause its attached to a gun ?

[rastuscat]

Interesting.

Here's what the Crimes Act defines as assault.

Assault means the act of intentionally applying or attempting to apply force to the person of another, directly or indirectly, or threatening by any act or gesture to apply such force to the person of another, if the person making the threat has, or causes the other to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; and to assault has a corresponding meaning.

The laser speed devices Police use don't put a red spot on a target, unlike the ones on telly. They have a HUD with a spot, but it isn't projected onto the target.

They also don't harm anyone. However, the ones sold to the public as laser pointers (ostensibly for responsible use) project a red spot, and can burn a persons retina. They are more than just light.

Given that the Police target vehicles with no harmful projection, I fail to agree with your allegation of assault. I agree that it is assault to point a hand held laser pointer into someones eyes, but that's not what Police do.

Radars are an entirely different matter, being non harmful radio waves directed at the environment, not at a specific vehicle. Again, not assault.

Given that the person detected speeding doesn't know it is happening, it can't even fit into the "causes to believe on reasonable grounds" category.

Yawn

So there.

[bogan]

As rastucat says, assault is not just physical (battery), a gun pointed at you with a red dot certainly sounds threatening to me. Speed camera beams are undetectable (without electronics), therefor most definetely unthreating.

+1 so theres :bleh:

[Scuba_Steve]

I can on occasion find the attitude of P.I.G.'s threatening, does that count as assault???

And does anyone know for sure, are the projections from speed scamming devices safe??? As I've said I work with lasers and just cause you cannot see the light does NOT make it safe.

[Gubb]

What I really need to know is

How can shining a laser light on someone be considered "ASSAULT"

Because it's attached to A FUCKING GUN.

Perhaps you may have a case if Traffic Cops are Lasering at you while it's attached to a Glock. Until then, I think i'll start calling you"InterimDangerousBastard".

[Max Preload]

That's all quite laughable dude. On this occasion I'm siding with the cops and the Judge. Case closed LOL

The dickhead is damn lucky the cops weren't armed, although he at least wouldn't have a conviction.....he'd be pushing up daisies.

What's laughable is that you don't have any answers to the questions I posed regarding your assumptions. If you were any more full of shit, you'd be a septic tank.

[Indiana_Jones]

As rastucat says, assault is not just physical (battery), a gun pointed at you with a red dot certainly sounds threatening to me. Speed camera beams are undetectable (without electronics), therefor most definetely unthreating.


What one person considers a threat is a joke to another....

-Indy

[Indoo]

What's laughable is that you don't have any answers to the questions I posed regarding your assumptions....

Do you actually want someone to answer those, you've already made yourself look like a complete tool and now you actually want someone to rub it in?

I think he was just being nice.

[MaxB]

The cops use an LTI 20/20 or a piece of shit Stalker LR unit for speed detection. Both work off LIDAR and use a infrared laser that is not visible. The eyepiece is usually an IR camera so the operator can see where the targeted area is. The ouput of the laser is limited by international safety standards.

The laser sight usually uses a laser diode in the visible red area. The beam is optimised to the operating range of the weapon. A larger spot is used for longer range devices so that the operator can sight the spot on the target from a distance.

If a small red spot about 4mm dia. appears on your jacket chances are its not a laser pointer.

[Rogue Rider]

good point, I had a mate done with "assault on a officer" for accidently shining a laser pointer into his eyes. That must mean the scamming devices are a form of assault right?

Aside from that is does make me question what tests have actually been done to prove these devises are safe to shine at people, I work alot with lasers & just because you cant see the light don't mean it aint gonna hurt/blind you. Invisible light can be dangerous even in short bursts


:scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scoo ter::scooter::scooter::scooter:


I wonder how it would go in court...... "I was driving along happily, when suddenly I lost sight vision though what I can only describe as a burning feeling in my eye. Next thing I find my self out of control struggling to see where I am going, and I end up crashing into a parked police vehicle with a policeman standing there pointing a lazer gun into my face............
:bye::bye::bye::bye:

[scumdog]

Correct me if I am wrong but dont most methods of guaging the speed of a moving vehicle involve shining a light upon it.

By this ruling then those persons shining the light are now guilty of assault.



I'll let you know the first time I see any speed detection device that shines a light on the target. (Except for the flash on a speed camera)

[scumdog]

:scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scoo ter::scooter::scooter::scooter:


I wonder how it would go in court...... "I was driving along happily, when suddenly I lost sight vision though what I can only describe as a burning feeling in my eye. Next thing I find my self out of control struggling to see where I am going, and I end up crashing into a parked police vehicle with a policeman standing there pointing a lazer gun into my face............
:bye::bye::bye::bye:

What a load of codswollop......blinded by a cops laser gun, as-if!

[The Pastor]

If anyone comes into my place at night un invited, I would do the same thing. Police or not police.

Its cases like this that make me wish we had better home invasion / self defense laws in NZ.

No one can touch my stuff without my permission, especially my bike.

I don't see what the guy did wrong, it was dark and he defended his home, he identified the intruder as police and put down his weapon.

Now one assumption im going to make about this story is the guy was pretty drunk, home late at night and smashing his window... don't think a sober person would do that?

[Max Preload]

Do you actually want someone to answer those, you've already made yourself look like a complete tool and now you actually want someone to rub it in?

I think he was just being nice.

You're just another fuckwit who's too scared to reply because your argument has no merit.

[Indiana_Jones]

If anyone comes into my place at night un invited, I would do the same thing. Police or not police.

Its cases like this that make me wish we had better home invasion / self defense laws in NZ.

No one can touch my stuff without my permission, especially my bike.

I don't see what the guy did wrong, it was dark and he defended his home, he identified the intruder as police and put down his weapon.

Now one assumption im going to make about this story is the guy was pretty drunk, home late at night and smashing his window... don't think a sober person would do that?

Bad boy...

You do what the nice police tell you to do, ring them and wait for 3 hours for the taxi to turn up....

-Indy

[DEATH_INC.]

(Except for the flash on a speed camera)
AHA! I'll try that one next time :)

[Pixie]

Good thing he didnt flick the lights on, with all that powerful light hurting the police.

It was the Ginga Cop.
He's got very sensitive pink skin ya know

[Scuba_Steve]

:scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scoo ter::scooter::scooter::scooter:


I wonder how it would go in court...... "I was driving along happily, when suddenly I lost sight vision though what I can only describe as a burning feeling in my eye. Next thing I find my self out of control struggling to see where I am going, and I end up crashing into a parked police vehicle with a policeman standing there pointing a lazer gun into my face............
:bye::bye::bye::bye:

:rofl: might be worth a try right? at the very least there'd be one less scammer on the road for a couple weeks :lol:

[Mr Merde]

In answer to some of the replies that the detection laser do not cast a light upon the subject vehicle.

It doesnt cast a light visible to our eyes.

The principle is still the same.

A laser sight for a rifle or a laser pointer sight generates a light in a certain frequency and spectrum. They are also designed to emmit as small a concentration as possibe.

A laser speed detector still cast a ligh upon an object. We may not with our eyes see it but it is there.

Principles are the same

If I throw a pebble at you or I throw a brick at you. I am still throwing something at you.

[Deano]

What's laughable is that you don't have any answers to the questions I posed regarding your assumptions. If you were any more full of shit, you'd be a septic tank.

You didn't answer mine either, but congratulations on resorting to personal insults. (I'll stoop to your level in a minute)

So - If yelling Police doesn't cut the mustard, then how should they identify themselves ?



What would you have the person who lives there do? Put down his only form of protection in the hope that the two blokes in his home, in the middle of the night, are who they said they are, only to have his head caved in?





The guy should have moved the laser off the officer (after being told too how many times ?) and waited to see the whites of their eyes (and their uniform). If it wasn't the cops then blast away.


Actually I did answer your first question but then you just got silly.


I don't know how many times - do you? If someone lies a lot does that mean it becomes the truth? How do you know they were in uniform? Would you be foolish enough to believe someone that has entered you home in the middle of the night and you can't actually see, is a cop because they say so and then let them get close enough to use the weapon they might be carrying that you also can't see? I sure fucking well wouldn't.


He was warned at least twice according to reports.
No lying often enough doesn't make it the truth but so what - what's your point.
I doubt that they were detectives - I assumed that they were wearing uniforms.
I would not continue to point a gun at somebody calling themselves a cop no. Move it to the side and then identify your target first.

In any case - do as you wish - you'll end up tazered or shot or both. Maybe not a bad thing. Have you bred yet ?

[Indiana_Jones]

Perhaps when the next cop shines a tourch at me or even has his car headlights pointed towards me I'll drop to the floor screaming "police brutality!!!" :D

-Indy

[Bald Eagle]

Perhaps when the next cop shines a tourch at me or even has his car headlights pointed towards me I'll drop to the floor screaming "police brutality!!!" :D

-Indy

the ref will just give you a yellow card for bad theatrics.

[Max Preload]

You didn't answer mine either, but congratulations on resorting to personal insults. (I'll stoop to your level in a minute)

Which question directed at me in the form of a reply did I not answer?


So - If yelling Police doesn't cut the mustard, then how should they identify themselves ?

Simple. They shouldn't be entering a place they can't be readily identified by an occupant who is entitled to protect himself from an intruder.


Actually I did answer your first question but then you just got silly.

No, you merely proposed a scenario where the lawful occupant was to allow the unidentified intruder to get close enough to bash him, which I then pointed out is stupid.


He was warned at least twice according to reports.

Not either of the reports I've seen on Stuff and the NZ Herald. Got a link?


No lying often enough doesn't make it the truth but so what - what's your point.

My point is that no matter how many times the unidentified intruder called out "Police" it doesn't mean they're not still simply lying.


I doubt that they were detectives - I assumed that they were wearing uniforms.Since there's actually nothing to suggest either way, lets just go with 'it was dark and they couldn't be seen so it's irrelevant' so it doesn't matter if they were or weren't. Which was my point from the beginning - we don't know if they were in uniform.


I would not continue to point a gun at somebody calling themselves a cop no. Move it to the side and then identify your target first.

I would, if they can't be identified as such. After all, what's an extra charge of "Impersonating Police" when you're up on a "Home invasion"?


In any case - do as you wish - you'll end up tazered or shot or both. Maybe not a bad thing. Have you bred yet ?

Do you want to end up with your head kicked in because you were silly enough to believe what an unidentified intruder to your home said? If so, I certainly hope you haven't bred. They'd have to end up dumber than sticks.

[Deano]

Which question directed at me in the form of a reply did I not answer?


When I asked exactly how the cops should have identified themselves. You've since answered it below, sort of anyway.



Simple. They shouldn't be entering a place they can't be readily identified by an occupant who is entitled to protect himself from an intruder.


To my knowledge they had every right to enter the dwelling to ascertain if a crime had been committed. As the judge said, a firearm was the wrong choice to defend himself with. In any case the first rule of firearms is to identify your target isn't it ?



No, you merely proposed a scenario where the lawful occupant was to allow the unidentified intruder to get close enough to bash him, which I then pointed out is stupid.


I never said he had to allow the Police to get close enough to bash him, merely that he should not have pointed the laser DIRECTLY at them. How long does it take to raise the gun again if it wasn't the cops ? A fraction of a second.

And the cops don't know if the occupant was the owner or a burglar themselves - a reasonable assumption given that the place appeared broken in to. If the cops had been armed the dude would have been shot. That's clever.



Not either of the reports I've seen on Stuff and the NZ Herald. Got a link?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3943072/Firearm-the-wrong-choice-judge-tells-homeowner




My point is that no matter how many times the unidentified intruder called out "Police" it doesn't mean they're not still simply lying.


So who is to say an undercover cop's ID isn't fake as he is arresting someone. Can you shoot him on the assumption his ID could have been fake ? (Like lying)

Funny but I've never heard of a home invasion where the crooks claim to be cops. Fuck - you're onto something there.........LOL




Do you want to end up with your head kicked in because you were silly enough to believe what an unidentified intruder to your home said? If so, I certainly hope you haven't bred. They'd have to end up dumber than sticks.

I don't possess a gun so will never be in the scenario you describe. But if they yelled Police I would make sure of my target before kicking their heads in.

The AOS are dressed in black, would you point a gun at them in your back yard at night and hope to get away with it ?

[scumdog]

In answer to some of the replies that the detection laser do not cast a light upon the subject vehicle.

It doesnt cast a light visible to our eyes.

The principle is still the same.

A laser sight for a rifle or a laser pointer sight generates a light in a certain frequency and spectrum. They are also designed to emmit as small a concentration as possibe.

A laser speed detector still cast a ligh upon an object. We may not with our eyes see it but it is there.

Principles are the same

If I throw a pebble at you or I throw a brick at you. I am still throwing something at you.
Yep, motorist are always getting shot at by cops with a laser, you should see the carnage.:shifty::shutup:

(I feel they are not really in the "wow, that could be a firearm pointed at me" catagory, lasers speed detection devices are rarely attached to bullet launching devices...)

[porky]

(I feel they are not really in the "wow, that could be a firearm pointed at me" catagory, lasers speed detection devices are rarely attached to bullet launching devices...)[/QUOTE]

But if they did it would be the end of high speed persuits. Something capable of taking out a tank would be preferable, save on the trip to court as well. Heck i better be carefull next time i use my dumpy level. ITS GOT A ROTATING LASER , no mercy, 360 degree carnage!!!

The write up in the paper had the judge getting anal over the unloaded gun being presented. The laser bit was the cop shitting himself as he watched it track across the room and land on him.
Probably a fucken scary feeling.

[Max Preload]

When I asked exactly how the cops should have identified themselves. You've since answered it below, sort of anyway.

I also answered that by posing the question "What would you have the person who lives there do?". Your answer seems to be "whatever the unidentified intruder to their home in the middle of the night tells them to". :rofl:


To my knowledge they had every right to enter the dwelling to ascertain if a crime had been committed. As the judge said, a firearm was the wrong choice to defend himself with. In any case the first rule of firearms is to identify your target isn't it ?

He did identify the target. Identifying your target doesn't mean you need to know everything about them - you just need to know what your target is. He did know: it was the unidentified intruder in his home, uninvited, in the middle of the night.


I never said he had to allow the Police to get close enough to bash him, merely that he should not have pointed the laser DIRECTLY at them. How long does it take to raise the gun again if it wasn't the cops ? A fraction of a second.

So exactly how close do you have to get, in the dark, to identify someone?


The guy should have moved the laser off the officer (after being told too how many times ?) and waited to see the whites of their eyes (and their uniform). If it wasn't the cops then blast away.

Clearly you think it's pretty close.


And the cops don't know if the occupant was the owner or a burglar themselves - a reasonable assumption given that the place appeared broken in to. If the cops had been armed the dude would have been shot. That's clever.

The difference being they had the option of waiting outside in order to safely determine that. But no, like the cowboys they are, they had to barge into an unknown situation. What was the homeowner's option from the top of the stairs when confronted by an unidentified intruder in his home in the dark of night?


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3943072/Firearm-the-wrong-choice-judge-tells-homeowner


"I yelled out: `Police, put it down' but got no response so yelled again: `Put it down, put it down. It's the police, you idiot."'

It's still coming from someone that the homeowner hasn't identified to his own satisfaction. Ergo, it's largely just an intruder saying something. Bigger fool you if you believe everything you're told by an unidentified intruder in your own home in the middle of the night. Believing them isn't a risk I'd take.


So who is to say an undercover cop's ID isn't fake as he is arresting someone. Can you shoot him on the assumption his ID could have been fake ? (Like lying)

You can lie on the spot. You can't produce a fake ID on the spot.


Funny but I've never heard of a home invasion where the crooks claim to be cops. Fuck - you're onto something there.........LOL

So if you haven't heard of it, it's never happened and never can happen? I guess we don't need impersonating Police to be a crime then. Fuck, what a strange world you live in.


I don't possess a gun so will never be in the scenario you describe. But if they yelled Police I would make sure of my target before kicking their heads in.

Unless they kicked your head in first while you're farting about 'identifying them from the whites of their eyes. It's just strange that you refuse to extend the courtesy to the home owner when it comes to satisfying his own level of certainty over the identification of intruders to his home.


The AOS are dressed in black, would you point a gun at them in your back yard at night and hope to get away with it ?

This is entirely irrelevant because he was INSIDE HIS HOME not in the yard. And trapped upstairs - he has every right to defend himself, in his own home, against uninvited unidentified intruders until HE is satisfied they are not a threat.

[Deano]

Well his lawyer should be sacked and you defend him for his appeal then, if you feel so strongly about it. :laugh:

FFS - he had the vantage point upstairs and they weren't advancing.....end of story. Laters.

[scumdog]

The difference being they had the option of waiting outside in order to safely determine that. But no, like the cowboys they are, they had to barge into an unknown situation.

The flip side: "Cops wait for back-up outside home of man while he was stabbed to death by burglar who has not yet been located"


I'm sure you had thought about that before posting your comment eh...:shifty:

[Indoo]

I also answered that by posing the question "What would you have the person who lives there do?".

Apply some logic and reason to the situation before pointing guns at people or is that a bit too much to ask?

Lets you've just thrown a 100kg statue through a plate glass door in the middle of the night in a heavily urban area and a few minutes later a couple of guys in Police uniform turn up, loudly and repeatedly announce that it's the Police and to put down the gun. Chances are it's probably not those burglars whom have been staking out your house for weeks while dressed up as cops just waiting for you to smash your own window to let them in and then waking you up by yelling out before they enter to rob you blind.


The difference being they had the option of waiting outside in order to safely determine that. But no, like the cowboys they are, they had to barge into an unknown situation.

Yes because they are going to be able to determine that by waiting outside...Gee imagine what would happen if all cops had your overly paranoid and cowardly attitude. The simple fact is logistically it would be impossible to function and cause unnecessary injury or death if it is to be assumed that every time loud noises are heard in the night that its an armed, confused and drunk homeowner smashing his way into his own house rather than a violent domestic, burglary or the forementioned drunk homeowner who managed to cut himself rather badly and is now bleeding to death while the Police wait outside for dog handlers, negotiators and the AOS to respond 'just in case'.

The simple fact is the guy was pissed out of his nut which is why he was unable to comprehend what was right before him, and probably also why he had to be pepper sprayed and forcibly subdued even after 'identifying' his target.

Your argument would have some merit in a different set of circumstances involving sober people making rational and logical decisions, just not this guy.

[Forest]

I can't help thinking that if the police were to strap a laser speed detector to a rifle, then it would probably be illegal to point the contraption at motorists.

Is that the question you were asking?