Greens = numpties.

[scumdog]

Green think registering all firearms would be a good thing 'cos then the cops would know who had what guns when the went to deal with a situation.

Boy, registering guns would have really made the difference to the two cops and the dog in Christchurch a few days ago eh, if those guns had been registered there was no way any of them would have been shot huh!:shutup:


Bloody Greens, their comments prove that a lot of them are a waste of oxygen....

[Swoop]

Totally true.

Burn the hippies!

[YellowDog]

All those naughty naught gun weilding folk always make sure their paperwork is in order prior to obtaining a firearm to commit a crime :no:

[schrodingers cat]

They are some very highly qualified idiots that's for sure.

What's that old saying about putting the brain in gear before opening ones mouth...?

[porky]

Green think registering all firearms would be a good thing 'cos then the cops would know who had what guns when the went to deal with a situation.

Boy, registering guns would have really made the difference to the two cops and the dog in Christchurch a few days ago eh, if those guns had been registered there was no way any of them would have been shot huh!:shutup:


Bloody Greens, their comments prove that a lot of them are a waste of oxygen....

Awesome concept... the hard bit would be getting the thief to leave his name and number so you could forward the particulars, for the sole purpose of up dating the data base!!!!!

[rainman]

So why require registration at all?

What's the source, btw? There isn't a frogblog post or press release covering this, and I don't think I'd trust the monkeys in the media to get basic quoting right at the moment...

[Toaster]

Totally true.

Burn the hippies!

Yeah but then they could complain about the negative carbon credits.

Dissolve them in eco-friendly tree acid....

I am sure all the crims out there will flock to the local plod station to register their cashes of firearms! :blink:

[MIXONE]

The only good greens are the ones you have with your meat and spuds.

[Swoop]

Post 6263 of the firearm thread has the link for those not in the know.

[Fatjim]

The logical solution is to treat everyone caught with an illegal firearm as if they were in theact of "ccommision" of a crime with.

Would be a faster way to get some people with the three strikes law as well.

[Hitcher]

On the subject of Greens, well green peas anyway...

Reading this morning's Dumbonion Post, I was assailed by a story purporting to be about a bunch of Greenpeace "volunteers" protesting against the prospect of deep ocean oil exploration off the New Zealand coast by adorning themselves with a diluted mixture of molasses. I've been around long enough to recognise the difference between tree hugging "volunteers" and "talent", and this morning's photo heightened my senses in that regard. Narry a hairy pit in sight. Paid talent. No question.

[BoristheBiter]

I can't see anything wrong with this concept at all.
So you have to register a firearm. big deal.
Whats the problem you have a full register with what guns are legal in NZ so when you find one that has been stolen, sold illegaly or you have to do proper checks on the person you are selling to.
I would have thought that you cops on here would have been in favour of this for when you rock on up to a house you know what should or shouldn't be there.

[bogan]

I can't see anything wrong with this concept at all.
So you have to register a firearm. big deal.
Whats the problem you have a full register with what guns are legal in NZ so when you find one that has been stolen, sold illegaly or you have to do proper checks on the person you are selling to.
I would have thought that you cops on here would have been in favour of this for when you rock on up to a house you know what should or shouldn't be there.

trouble is cops generally rock up to criminals houses, ya know, the people that steal shit, like guns :shit:

[BoristheBiter]

trouble is cops generally rock up to criminals houses, ya know, the people that steal shit, like guns :shit:

Yep but not all the time, something is better than nothing. it is nice to know before you get up there. you know some good people also do bad shit.

[BoristheBiter]

Green think registering all firearms would be a good thing 'cos then the cops would know who had what guns when the went to deal with a situation.

Boy, registering guns would have really made the difference to the two cops and the dog in Christchurch a few days ago eh, if those guns had been registered there was no way any of them would have been shot huh!:shutup:


Bloody Greens, their comments prove that a lot of them are a waste of oxygen....

So whats your anwser??

[scumdog]

So whats your anwser??

Status quo.

The 'register all guns' system never saved one life.

NOT having the guns registered has not cost one life.

[bogan]

Yep but not all the time, something is better than nothing. it is nice to know before you get up there. you know some good people also do bad shit.

but they won't know, they will only ever know if there is supposed to be guns at a house, better to treat em all as if they have them. Its just another example of creating laws to control the lawless.

[JMemonic]

If memory serves we used to have firearms registered to an owner it made no difference to firearms related crime or unlawful procession of firearms. There are merits in having a registration system, but they will not stop illegal firearms, it has a potential to reduce the ability of some licence holders to purchase arms for sale to the black market.

I would have to agree with the general consensus that the Greens are a misguided waste of space but I have heard of a couple of cases where their input has actually been sensible eg one bill to do with security of restricted areas on the first reading contained the requirement security officers were to be armed, this would have meant with limited or no training a group of people would be armed, even aviation security who operate in in a potentially dangerous environment, (and are government backed), are not armed, the only ones who appeared to notice this disparity were the Greens as they were the ones who objected.

What should concern some folks here is the alteration to the laws around airguns, I have a single shot spring powered air rifle that has a muzzle velocity in excess of some .22 cal firearm rounds, if I have to licence that's fine I will, but many wont.

[Rogue Rider]

Naaaaaaaaaaaaagh its not there fault, they smoked ways too much grass to be able to think normal.
Politics needs grassers, cause if they weren't there who else would make dumb arse ideas a reality.... Sue Bradford, now there's a shister, well she sure ain't a looker, or much good for anything else, or was it anything lol..... A smack is bad, it hurts lol........

From now on we will put naughty gun weilding idiots on the naughty step!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
.
.Nooooooooo please mr, don't put me back on the naughty step, pleeeease......

[BoristheBiter]

Status quo.

The 'register all guns' system never saved one life.

NOT having the guns registered has not cost one life.

How do you know?
Never had it here so you have nothing to Base it no other than what some other country has or hasn't done.
You go to a place, not supposed to have a firearm, you find a gun what do you do now?
Nothing becuase you have no way of tracing a firearm of if you go to a house and find no gun and there should be.
If it was registered you would know who is or isn't suposed to have one and find out either way why they don't.
I'm not nieve enough to think this will slove all the problems but at least it is a start unlike what there is now.........Nothing.

[BoristheBiter]

but they won't know, they will only ever know if there is supposed to be guns at a house, better to treat em all as if they have them. Its just another example of creating laws to control the lawless.

So the police just rock up to a house with the AOS in full tac, kick the door in, throw in a flash bang then find a joint or two while doing a drug warrent?
Can see that going down well.

[Usarka]

You don't need no gun control, you need bullet control!

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[bogan]

So the police just rock up to a house with the AOS in full tac, kick the door in, throw in a flash bang then find a joint or two while doing a drug warrent?
Can see that going down well.

can you see them doing that if they know there is supposed to be a gun in that house? fuck off, having a gun is only a small part of the equation, having intent is far more serious, and the cops can't tell that unless they have to declare that as well?

[JMemonic]

How do you know?
Never had it here .

ORLY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_New_Zealand#The_1983_Arms_Act

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0502/S00074.htm

We did it was removed in 1982, maybe before your time.

[scumdog]

How do you know?
Never had it here so you have nothing to Base it no other than what some other country has or hasn't done.
You go to a place, not supposed to have a firearm, you find a gun what do you do now?
Nothing becuase you have no way of tracing a firearm of if you go to a house and find no gun and there should be.
If it was registered you would know who is or isn't suposed to have one and find out either way why they don't.
I'm not nieve enough to think this will slove all the problems but at least it is a start unlike what there is now.........Nothing.


Ya blew it in the first two lines....

I guess I'm older than you...or haven't blitzed my memory.:shifty:

And we find a gun and it can't be returned? - it's sent to the big gun-range in the sky..

[oldrider]

So whats your anwser??

Register the fucking "criminals" and visit "them" every day to check "their" gun licences, they are the only ones that use them for "crime"! FFS :angry:

[BoristheBiter]

ORLY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_New_Zealand#The_1983_Arms_Act

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0502/S00074.htm

We did it was removed in 1982, maybe before your time.

Not before my time but before my licence.
I stand corrected.

[BoristheBiter]

Ya blew it in the first two lines....

I guess I'm older than you...or haven't blitzed my memory.:shifty:

And we find a gun and it can't be returned? - it's sent to the big gun-range in the sky..

Maybe are but i stand corrected anyway.
I still can't see why it would be a good thing not only can you see who is reciving you can also see who is selling illegaly.
With todays tecnology if we can see what cars are reged and WOFed i'm sure it can work with firearms.

[Usarka]

Register the fucking "criminals" and visit "them" every day to check "their" gun licences, they are the only ones that use them for "crime"! FFS :angry:

That's breaching their rights.

Far better to make it more restrictive for law-abiding folk even if the change has very little chance of doing any good.

[davereid]

No country has ever been able to show that gun registration has lowered gun crime rates. And why would it ?

Motor-vehicles present themselves regularly in a public place, registration is relatively easy to enforce. Yet many vehicles go unregistered, carry fasle plartes or are stolen, particularly those used in crimes.

But guns are different. Most of their life is spent out of public scrutiny, in a cupboard or on private land.

Indeed, the sight of one registered or otherwise causes greenies to shit themselves and find another reason to be a vegetarian. Rocking into a mountain hut full of tree-huggers, whilst slinging a 7mm REM-Mag always make you feel like they think you are going to shoot them...

And, when grand-dad dies, what happens then ?

The problem with the old registry was that the guns would just get "lost". Did the older son Fred take them or was it young Joe ?

Perhaps the police could appoint a man to read the deaths column and run around to make sure the dead chaps guns are not handed on !

Our current system of licensing users seems to be working very well. Why F around with it ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

The licensing of airguns will actually increase the number of firearms in the community, so it will be good for boosting the numbers of firearms owners.

Once licensed, many who would have wanted only an air-rifle for the magpies or bunnies will buy a .22 as well / instead.

Criminals of course, don't bother with the license, They don't need it, as they don't buy their guns at Sportsways.

[Pixie]

No country has ever been able to show that gun registration has lowered gun crime rates. And why would it ?



Not strictly true.
In Switzerland, where registered military arms are stored in most residences,has a very low crime rate :sunny:

[Pixie]

The licensing of airguns will actually increase the number of firearms in the community, so it will be good for boosting the numbers of firearms owners.

Once licensed, many who would have wanted only an air-rifle for the magpies or bunnies will buy a .22 as well / instead.

Criminals of course, don't bother with the license, They don't need it, as they don't buy their guns at Sportsways.

I love the wankers who are claiming that the high powered air rifle is the "weapon of choice" for criminals.
If criminals are choosing airguns that cost 10 times as much,have one tenth the projectile energy, and can't be cut down ,they are as stupid as I thought they are.

[Delerium]

How do you know?
Never had it here so you have nothing to Base it no other than what some other country has or hasn't done.
You go to a place, not supposed to have a firearm, you find a gun what do you do now?
Nothing becuase you have no way of tracing a firearm of if you go to a house and find no gun and there should be.
If it was registered you would know who is or isn't suposed to have one and find out either way why they don't.
I'm not nieve enough to think this will slove all the problems but at least it is a start unlike what there is now.........Nothing.

Actually YES we did have it here. why wont it work? google canada gun registry. or UK. Or australia. each time a spectacular failure with no benefit. Do you really think the guy thats going to rob the bank with an illegal firearm is going to register it?

In fact in canada it is such a failure (over 2 billion dollars when it was said it would cost in the region of 10 million) that they are in the process of repealling it. Not to mention the number of security breaches the system has had.

[Swoop]

Greenpeace "volunteers" protesting against the prospect of deep ocean oil exploration off the New Zealand coast...
I believe that they are a couple of years too late. A survey ship was based in Bluff and conducted extensive survey work off of the west coast of NZ. The results of that survey should be ready quite soon, in fact.


How do you know?
Never had it here...
Not true. We STILL have registration here. Anything apart from "A-Cat" firearms are registered.
You would be surprised to find out how badly that process is managed and how many innaccuracies there are in that system.:yes:


You don't need no gun control, you need bullet control!
As scary as it seems, America WAS planning the requirement of a laser engraved serial number on EVERY round of ammunition manufactured.

Imagine the wonderful amounts of bureaucracy that hair brained scheme would have produced!:angry:

[BoristheBiter]

Actually YES we did have it here. why wont it work? google canada gun registry. or UK. Or australia. each time a spectacular failure with no benefit. Do you really think the guy thats going to rob the bank with an illegal firearm is going to register it?

In fact in canada it is such a failure (over 2 billion dollars when it was said it would cost in the region of 10 million) that they are in the process of repealling it. Not to mention the number of security breaches the system has had.

So because it fails we should just throw it away and do nothing?

We should then just do away with all laws and go for a free for all because eveyone knows putting people in jail doesn't work either. people still drive with no licence, WOF or rego so lets not have to worry about them. people still murder others, beat kids, steal, lie, cheat and give laws the big finger so lets say fuck it bring it on and may the best man (or women) win.

All you people are quick to bag anything new (or old as i have told) but have no anwsers, well ones that are worth anything (i liked oldriders one), but then i forget this is KB where its all about who can find the most people to whine on any given subject.

[bogan]

So because it fails we should just throw it away and do nothing?

We should then just do away with all laws and go for a free for all because eveyone knows putting people in jail doesn't work either. people still drive with no licence, WOF or rego so lets not have to worry about them. people still murder others, beat kids, steal, lie, cheat and give laws the big finger so lets say fuck it bring it on and may the best man (or women) win.

All you people are quick to bag anything new (or old as i have told) but have no anwsers, well ones that are worth anything (i liked oldriders one), but then i forget this is KB where its all about who can find the most people to whine on any given subject.

yes, throw it away and come up with something better or do nothing. Plenty of revenue is gathered with license and wof's both from tickets and actually paying them, and the amount of times I've failed a wof would sometimes make my car safer. Jail does work cos the fuckers can't steal or kill (anyone significant) while they are in there.

We may have no answers, but at least our way wont inconvenience the lawful while doing nothing to the lawless.

Personally I think we need to give people defending their homes a bit more leeway, someone breaks in, shoot him in the kneecap, someone breaks in with a gun, shoot him in the head.

[Swoop]

So because it fails we should just throw it away and do nothing?
There is a vast difference between having nothing and having a seriously flawed system that does not do what it was intended for. Registration was done away with because it was so ineffective and a burden on resources that could be better utilised elsewhere.
NZ already has the most effective and robust solution for the perceived problem.

Remember that criminals are not concerned about or bound by any system, so the only people to be regulated are the law abiding.

[The Pastor]

So because it fails we should just throw it away and do nothing?

We should then just do away with all laws and go for a free for all because eveyone knows putting people in jail doesn't work either. people still drive with no licence, WOF or rego so lets not have to worry about them. people still murder others, beat kids, steal, lie, cheat and give laws the big finger so lets say fuck it bring it on and may the best man (or women) win.

All you people are quick to bag anything new (or old as i have told) but have no anwsers, well ones that are worth anything (i liked oldriders one), but then i forget this is KB where its all about who can find the most people to whine on any given subject.

Lets just humor you for a second.

lets imagine that somehow the cops know every firearm in nz- they are registered and the cops know about all selling and buying (currently they do know about all legal mail/internet orders )...

How are you going to keep track of the millions of firearms currently in NZ that no one knows about? What about the 1000's of guns the criminals already have? Are they magically going to disappear? Look at the states, i they have some very strict rules on gun rego (even the bullets have to have serial numbers) yet their gun crime is huge.

the basic flaw with gun rego (to stop crime) is criminals don't abide by laws. Its their job to break the law. If they are prepared to kill someone, they are prepared to not register their guns.

Drugs are illegal, and they get smuggled into / made in NZ. You think guns don't? Ha.

There are a few main reasons why I (as a shooter) am opposed to this law.

1. I don't like anyone having a list of what firearms I have in my house. Trademe keeps a list of all firearm transactions and there has already been a case where a bunch of criminals got thousands of trademe records, as well as the seller/buyers address's! Given to them by the police! So a large amount of criminals got given basically a shopping list!

2. IT will have NO effect on gun crime, or police knowledge on firearms available.

3. It will cost the law abiding citizen. You think this will all be done for free? Ha!, who's going to pay? Me. I don't have money to through around on nothing.

4. We had it before, it didn't work, it wont work, and it was well proven that it is not needed at all.

5. NZ has a very low gun crime rate. Why? Because our laws actually work, (they are not perfect by any means)

[oldrider]

Did you all notice the recent TV news item about the "Asian" drug and money laundering ring that was busted by NZ police? (Well done police)

The rather large cache of "quality" arms they had would of course "all" been registered! Yeah right! :mellow:

[cold comfort]

Did you all notice the recent TV news item about the "Asian" drug and money laundering ring that was busted by NZ police? (Well done police)

The rather large cache of "quality" arms they had would of course "all" been registered! Yeah right! :mellow:

My words exactly in the firearm thread J. More laws for the law-abiding. Nothing to hinder the crims as usual.

[JMemonic]

Did you all notice the recent TV news item about the "Asian" drug and money laundering ring that was busted by NZ police? (Well done police)

The rather large cache of "quality" arms they had would of course "all" been registered! Yeah right! :mellow:

And that hits the nail on the head, there are already numbers of firearms in criminal hands, they will never be registered.

What would really help is more effort put into the detection of unlawful firearms, ammunition and components on the front line particularly on our boarders but in an effort to satisfy expensive pay increases to higher level bureaucrats front line staff numbers get reduced and the elected government can say hey look we saved money. There will be a tipping point somewhere, and we may have passed it, where the numbers of firearms available to the criminal element will require armed law enforcement, one hopes should that ever happen there is better training than a course and once a year re-qualification. Personally I would be concerned if we go down that road, sure we have experienced calmer officers on the front line but there are some young, (and not so young), who would see their roles as a power trip.

[schrodingers cat]

The answer is to register Green supporters. When stupidity starts to rise (does it ever fall?) ship them to Australia and raise the IQ of both countries

[The Pastor]

And that hits the nail on the head, there are already numbers of firearms in criminal hands, they will never be registered.

What would really help is more effort put into the detection of unlawful firearms, ammunition and components on the front line particularly on our boarders but in an effort to satisfy expensive pay increases to higher level bureaucrats front line staff numbers get reduced and the elected government can say hey look we saved money. There will be a tipping point somewhere, and we may have passed it, where the numbers of firearms available to the criminal element will require armed law enforcement, one hopes should that ever happen there is better training than a course and once a year re-qualification. Personally I would be concerned if we go down that road, sure we have experienced calmer officers on the front line but there are some young, (and not so young), who would see their roles as a power trip.

Go take a look at any pistol range after the police have finished using it... you'll be surprised to where you'll find the bullets (or so im told!)

[Cayman911]

Swoop had the best answer so far.

burn them hippies!

[Swoop]

Swoop had the best answer so far.

burn them hippies!
Just make sure you stand upwind when doing so...
They smell funny.

[BoristheBiter]

5. NZ has a very low gun crime rate. Why? Because our laws actually work, (they are not perfect by any means)

You don't watch the news much do you. it seems like evey second item is some one held up some where with a gun.

Where i understand what you mean as being a shooter we will pay and there are already 1000's of guns on the streets but just ignoring the problem will not make it go away and if there is nothing done and it gets worse we will end up like the UK where you can't own any firearm.

At the moment i can go and purchase any firearm then sell it on the blackmarket and there will be no come back on me as there is no way of tracking any weapon purchased. as you know all they do is write it in a book and thats if you buy it from a dealer, private and your lucky if your asked to see a licence.

Cops find some weapon in the wrong hands and unless they know what shop sold it thats where the trail ends. If there was a registry, at least it could be tracked back to see where it should be, or if it had been stolen then they could be charged with recieving at the least.

I know this isn't the great fix that the greens are saying it will be but at least it is a start, and if your worrying about cost then you make it like vehicle rego and only pay when changed over.

[The Pastor]

You don't watch the news much do you. it seems like evey second item is some one held up some where with a gun.

Where i understand what you mean as being a shooter we will pay and there are already 1000's of guns on the streets but just ignoring the problem will not make it go away and if there is nothing done and it gets worse we will end up like the UK where you can't own any firearm.

At the moment i can go and purchase any firearm then sell it on the blackmarket and there will be no come back on me as there is no way of tracking any weapon purchased. as you know all they do is write it in a book and thats if you buy it from a dealer, private and your lucky if your asked to see a licence.

Cops find some weapon in the wrong hands and unless they know what shop sold it thats where the trail ends. If there was a registry, at least it could be tracked back to see where it should be, or if it had been stolen then they could be charged with recieving at the least.

I know this isn't the great fix that the greens are saying it will be but at least it is a start, and if your worrying about cost then you make it like vehicle rego and only pay when changed over.

No i don't watch the news much, its a load of BS.

In nz, you don't have to be worried about going to school/work/mall and some nut head pulling out a gun on you. - how many countries can you honestly say that in?

Have you seen that vid of the cop shooting the biker at a routine speeding ticket? I fear thats the way NZ is heading.

To quote KRS-One


The police them have a little gun
So when I'm on the streets, I walk around with a bigger one

[BoristheBiter]

No i don't watch the news much, its a load of BS.

In nz, you don't have to be worried about going to school/work/mall and some nut head pulling out a gun on you. - how many countries can you honestly say that in?

Have you seen that vid of the cop shooting the biker at a routine speeding ticket? I fear thats the way NZ is heading.


1) shit loads of counties that i have been in i have felt very safe, i can't say the same in CHCH.

2) yes because of one vid makes all the difference.

3) who cares what some shit says.

[JMemonic]

1) shit loads of counties that i have been in i have felt very safe, i can't say the same in CHCH.

Odd isnt it I would have to say I felt unsafe in Auckland very rarely ever here and that was only due to massive numbers of idiots in one area at the same time, sure Christchurch has a perceived reputation but for the most part its undeserved, there are no areas of the city I would not go, I am unworried about some LA gansta wannabe trying to knife me to build a rep, there are far less Asian gansta wannabes here. Where was the latest news breaking item where a load of guns were recovered hmm that's right Auckland.
[/QUOTE]

[oldrider]

My words exactly in the firearm thread J. More laws for the law-abiding. Nothing to hinder the crims as usual.

Exactly M, remember the guy who attacked a "gunshop" owner with a "machete"!

Loud "BANG" end of attack!

(and "who" got all the police attention and prosecuted? "not" the bloody criminal!)

Give everyone back the right to own a gun and protect themselves and watch the crime rate go down!

Cowardly criminals know the odds are not only stacked in "their" favour but the police are there for "their" (the criminals) protection as well! FFS! :oi-grr:

Crime pays, only in New Zealand, why don't they publish those statistics! :yes:

[jahrasti]

Go take a look at any pistol range after the police have finished using it... you'll be surprised to where you'll find the bullets (or so im told!)

Or so I am told. This fucks me off.

Yes some Police may not be the best shots. That I agree with HOWEVER that number is actually quite small. Do Police need more practice? of coarse they do as well as more driving, riot training, SSTT(self defence) etc etc.

The people that say that sort of shit, normally aren't the crack shots that they pretend to be.

I have seen pistol club members shot like shit, looks more like a shot gun. Then in the next breath dog the Police.On the other hand I have spoken to pistol club members who are highly ranked shooters. They are normally not to bad about dogging the Police.

Some people are just lacking the confidence in the weapons. All that takes to fix is a bit of time.
I have had poor shots shooting very well, and all it took was a bit of time and some tinkering of technique here and there.

It seems easy for people in glass houses to throw stones.

[The Pastor]

Some people are just lacking the confidence in the weapons. All that takes to fix is a bit of time.



I disagree, I think it takes A LOT of time to gain the skills required to be able to use a pistol safely. I think it takes more time to be able to use one safely in a high stress environment.

[Scuba_Steve]

Or so I am told. This fucks me off.

Yes some Police may not be the best shots. That I agree with HOWEVER that number is actually quite small. Do Police need more practice? of coarse they do as well as more driving, riot training, SSTT(self defence) etc etc.

The people that say that sort of shit, normally aren't the crack shots that they pretend to be.

I have seen pistol club members shot like shit, looks more like a shot gun. Then in the next breath dog the Police.On the other hand I have spoken to pistol club members who are highly ranked shooters. They are normally not to bad about dogging the Police.

Some people are just lacking the confidence in the weapons. All that takes to fix is a bit of time.
I have had poor shots shooting very well, and all it took was a bit of time and some tinkering of technique here and there.

It seems easy for people in glass houses to throw stones.

This is why I don't want to see the cops with guns, They don't get & won't get the training necessary to use them safety. Case's in point, Courier driver in Auckland & Dog in the Hutt couple years back.

[jahrasti]

I disagree, I think it takes A LOT of time to gain the skills required to be able to use a pistol safely. I think it takes more time to be able to use one safely in a high stress environment.

No it doesn't take alot of time to use a pistol safely. Learning safety skills is easy.

Using one in high stress situation?, What is safely? do you mean not missing your shot?

That is impossible, even the best miss. Yes it does take thousands of reps before a movement becomes ingrained in ones muscle memory.

Most popo engagements/contacts/shootings are at a very close distance (this figure is 'meriken).

I believe that the firearms training meets the requirement JUST!!. Of coarse more is better though.

[jahrasti]

This is why I don't want to see the cops with guns, They don't get & won't get the training necessary to use them safety. Case's in point, Courier driver in Auckland & Dog in the Hutt couple years back.

What the fuck do you know? Did your sister tell you that after a good inbred fuck session?

The courier driver tragedy, well it was a tragedy but I believe that given a soldier or a competitive shooter, there could well have been the same outcome.

But please enlighten me on your wisdom on the subject:yes:

[The Pastor]

No it doesn't take alot of time to use a pistol safely. Learning safety skills is easy.

Using one in high stress situation?, What is safely? do you mean not missing your shot?

That is impossible, even the best miss. Yes it does take thousands of reps before a movement becomes ingrained in ones muscle memory.

Most popo engagements/contacts/shootings are at a very close distance (this figure is 'meriken).

I believe that the firearms training meets the requirement JUST!!. Of coarse more is better though.

Define close range, and a range you'd be happy having a cop shoot a pistol at a target the size of a 20cm circle at.

Pistols (esp semi auto's) are VERY easy to point in an unsafe direction and accidentally fire. I believe the require a stack load of continus training for anyone to be able to deal with pistols in a safe manor.

You seen that vid of the DEA agent giving a gun saftey lecture to a group of school kids with a glock that shoots himself in the leg?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0411061foot1.html

here is the video of the cop shooting an innocent biker.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=7433661

And i know the states have really good cop firearm training.....

[-Alias-]

Maybe are but i stand corrected anyway.
I still can't see why it would be a good thing not only can you see who is reciving you can also see who is selling illegaly.


Yeah. Cos the cops are really going to be able to track firearms when they're nicked & then swapped for an ounce of bud.

why spen millions implementing a flawed law that has been PROVEN to not work in this country? Those millions would be better spent on initiatives to reduce violent offending.

As long as violent offending exists, guns will be used, and criminals will be able to procure them.

[JMemonic]

Some people are just lacking the confidence in the weapons. All that takes to fix is a bit of time.
I have had poor shots shooting very well, and all it took was a bit of time and some tinkering of technique here and there.

And it take practice to ingrain those skills which you cover soon but we will get to that


No it doesn't take alot of time to use a pistol safely. Learning safety skills is easy.

Using one in high stress situation?, What is safely? do you mean not missing your shot?


Yes what is safely in a high stress situation, hmmm, obviously the basic skills are all that is needed surely.



That is impossible, even the best miss. Yes it does take thousands of reps before a movement becomes ingrained in ones muscle memory.

Most popo engagements/contacts/shootings are at a very close distance (this figure is 'meriken).

I dont get you I thought you had respect for the police then you call them popo, and not all engagements are close, correct even the best do miss but not often.


I believe that the firearms training meets the requirement JUST!!. Of coarse more is better though.

Here we are the soon I mentioned before, training and practice are not always the same thing, many here can train you how to do a task, however for you to be good at that task you will need practice the more practice the better at it you will be, just is not good enough if we are to have every officer armed and the lack of funds for practice maybe one of the reasons the politicians have said no to the idea


What the fuck do you know? Did your sister tell you that after a good inbred fuck session?


This is an enlightened response, no really I can see your justification to a valid comment from Scuba_Steve I mean surely to state he does not want to see the NZ police fully armed as they will not get the training (read practice) must be wrong and therefore he inbreeds with family members, but wait did you state the and I quote

I believe that the firearms training meets the requirement JUST!!. Of coarse more is better though.
So in your opinion just is good enough, if this opinion is rampant then we are going down hill fast, with no brakes.

[jahrasti]

Define close range, and a range you'd be happy having a cop shoot a pistol at a target the size of a 20cm circle at.

Pistols (esp semi auto's) are VERY easy to point in an unsafe direction and accidentally fire. I believe the require a stack load of continus training for anyone to be able to deal with pistols in a safe manor.

You seen that vid of the DEA agent giving a gun saftey lecture to a group of school kids with a glock that shoots himself in the leg?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0411061foot1.html

here is the video of the cop shooting an innocent biker.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=7433661

And i know the states have really good cop firearm training.....

I can't find the report, but off the top of my head less than 7 metres.

Yes small barrelled weapons can be easily pointed in a unsafe direction that is why weapons are treated with respect.

The glock does not have a safety catch as such however safety aspects are built into it.

That is why I always stress that the day you become overconfident or lazy, it will come back and bite you in the ass big time.

I have witnessed plenty of UD's (unintentional discharge) in the military, from exactly as I have stated above i.e overconfidence.

What has the cop shooting the biker got to do with anything? Yea he shot him. That comes down to the person period. Can we stop that, I don't think so it is human nature. If we could see into the future then we could recruit people that would never fuck up.

[Scuba_Steve]

What the fuck do you know? Did your sister tell you that after a good inbred fuck session?

The courier driver tragedy, well it was a tragedy but I believe that given a soldier or a competitive shooter, there could well have been the same outcome.

But please enlighten me on your wisdom on the subject:yes:

Anyone with ANY intelligence (obviously you skip this category based on your response here) knows NOT to take the shot unless you have a perfectly clear line to the target, the pure fact an innocent got hit means this was not the case.

[jahrasti]

And it take practice to ingrain those skills which you cover soon but we will get to that



Yes what is safely in a high stress situation, hmmm, obviously the basic skills are all that is needed surely.

exactly and how do you know that the basic skills don't exist at the moment?

I dont get you I thought you had respect for the police then you call them popo, and not all engagements are close, correct even the best do miss but not often.

Oh no I called the Police popo and? But they do miss. No matter what you say people miss no matter how good



Here we are the soon I mentioned before, training and practice are not always the same thing, many here can train you how to do a task, however for you to be good at that task you will need practice the more practice the better at it you will be, just is not good enough if we are to have every officer armed and the lack of funds for practice maybe one of the reasons the politicians have said no to the idea

Maybe funds is a reason, only the gobermint can answer that one. Is dry firing or scenario based training counted as practice? both are easy to do dry firing especially.

This is an enlightened response, no really I can see your justification to a valid comment from Scuba_Steve I mean surely to state he does not want to see the NZ police fully armed as they will not get the training (read practice) must be wrong and therefore he inbreeds with family members, but wait did you state the and I quote

Thank you I try my best, I think he is a tool with his anti Police statements with no substance so I thought I would try it and actually I can see the appeal

So in your opinion just is good enough, if this opinion is rampant then we are going down hill fast, with no brakes.

Yes I think it is JUST good enough at the moment. Everything can be improved and should always strive to be improved. But Just also means that it is also good enough at this point in time. This is my opinion and yes I know the saying about opinions. If I thought the training was lacking I would say that on here.



No doubt you will nit pick the above comments

[cowpoos]

Green think registering all firearms would be a good thing 'cos then the cops would know who had what guns when the went to deal with a situation.

Boy, registering guns would have really made the difference to the two cops and the dog in Christchurch a few days ago eh, if those guns had been registered there was no way any of them would have been shot huh!:shutup:


Bloody Greens, their comments prove that a lot of them are a waste of oxygen....

What should happen...is all ammo that is purchased needs to be picked up from the police station...no matter what it is...slug gun pellets,arrows,shotgun cartridges,etc...

Would allow police to get an eye on volume...and any dodgy people wanting amo for anything....and the administration argument is a no brainer...police take a 10% mark up at least.

[Swoop]

I believe that the firearms training meets the requirement JUST!!. Of coarse more is better though.


Yes some Police may not be the best shots. That I agree with HOWEVER that number is actually quite small. Do Police need more practice? of coarse they do...


This is why I don't want to see the cops with guns, They don't get & won't get the training necessary to use them safety.
Scuba Steve is quite correct here, and appears to be well backed up by jahrasti's comments on the level of training and recurrency training provided to line cops (obviously AOS is different).

Having shot at every range in Auckland except for the police range in south Auckland, I have personally witnessed the levels of damage done to the ranges by police.
Thank goodness they are on their own range now.

[geoffm]

I can't see anything wrong with this concept at all.
So you have to register a firearm. big deal.
Whats the problem you have a full register with what guns are legal in NZ so when you find one that has been stolen, sold illegaly or you have to do proper checks on the person you are selling to.
I would have thought that you cops on here would have been in favour of this for when you rock on up to a house you know what should or shouldn't be there.

IT never worked with registration here in NZ before, It hasn't worked in Canada, despite a billion dollar registry, which is going to be scrapped.
Completely banning handguns in the UK didn't work even, as pistol crime was higher afterwards than before...
Surprisingly enough, criminals don't bother with licenses, and stuff like that, since they are hardly "fit and proper" people as per the Arms Act.
The main thing registration does is provide a list for the Greens to confiscate ore morel likely, since they have never seen a tax they didn't like, tax them out of existence. For that reason alone, registration will fail miserably.

[geoffm]

What should happen...is all ammo that is purchased needs to be picked up from the police station...no matter what it is...slug gun pellets,arrows,shotgun cartridges,etc...

Would allow police to get an eye on volume...and any dodgy people wanting amo for anything....and the administration argument is a no brainer...police take a 10% mark up at least.

I reload my own, I don't buy ammo...
Your argument on ammo quantities is also flawed. Crims don't use much ammo a couple of shots is plenty for holding up the local stop-and rob corner store or doing a hostile business takeover of someones patch.

How much is to much? I went through 250 rounds the other weekend plinking at targets. Would have been more except I ran out. That is a quiet weekend.

[Woodman]

Unfortunately the Green party give environmentalists a bad name with this kind of dum shit.

a lot of them are a pack of academic idealistic fuckwits who should be in the labour Party , NOT the Green Party.

[jahrasti]

Scuba Steve is quite correct here, and appears to be well backed up by jahrasti's comments on the level of training and recurrency training provided to line cops (obviously AOS is different).

Having shot at every range in Auckland except for the police range in south Auckland, I have personally witnessed the levels of damage done to the ranges by police.
Thank goodness they are on their own range now.

Bull shit, I have stated that the training is good enough. I said a small percentage struggle. Big fucken difference.

Just like life not everyone is equal.

What have you seen? dirty cups left around?damaged frames? ever been to a competition shoot (two or three gun shoots etc)

What about club members that abuse the rules? seen plenty of that, but is that ok?

No matter what is said, people on here will use the 'cops cant shoot for shit' line.

Plenty of front line cops can shoot as well as any soldier. What do I base that on? My own obervation pure and simple.

[jahrasti]

How much is to much? I went through 250 rounds the other weekend plinking at targets. Would have been more except I ran out. That is a quiet weekend.

Re loading is the way to go. Dam 'merikens driving the price up.

Did you try buying ammo that the 'merikens would want when the second gulf war kicked off :sick:

[JMemonic]

No doubt you will nit pick the above comments

You keep contradicting yourself, you attempt to make a point in on paragraph then contradict in the the next, you must live in the beehive as you talk like a politician, lot of wind and ranting with no real substance. You have little grasp of the concept of sarcasm, please go back and re read my previous reply to you with that in mind, it might become apparent to you the imho your a tool.

[Swoop]

Bull shit, I have stated that the training is good enough. I said a small percentage struggle.

What have you seen? dirty cups left around?damaged frames? ever been to a competition shoot (two or three gun shoots etc)
"It is good enough".
For what? Handling a firearm without shooting yourself in the foot?
What I have seen is the NZ Police showing up on a range that is owned and operated by another entity.
They then proceed to cause damage to the range structure (walls, roofs, etc, etc) with fired rounds.
They then leave, requiring the owners/operators of that range with the damage bill and the negative impressions to newer people taking up shooting sports.

Yes, I have competed in 3-gun. What of it?

[simpy1]

I'm going to be seriously outnumbered here, but I don't think the Greens are all numpties. Yes they have their share of ridiculously idealistic members, but hey if they didn't have a voice in parliament, NZ would probably be much worse off, not just environmentally. And our environment is important for many reasons, including economic ones (tourism).

As for the guns argument, every time some moron says we'd be safer if the cops all wore side arms, I reply with "Yes, then we'd all be safe, just like in the USA". A gun in each car is plenty for NZ. The reason we hear about it so often in the news is because the news loves fearmongering. If I were looking for inspiration for a shooting spree, the news is where I'd start.

I think our current system is pretty good - but how about when you buy a gun, the store keeps an electronic record of the purchase, gun type, perhaps a serial number (stamped into the metal on the gun), and takes a digital photo. Then at least the cops can trace the gun back to where it came from.

[The Pastor]

What should happen...is all ammo that is purchased needs to be picked up from the police station...no matter what it is...slug gun pellets,arrows,shotgun cartridges,etc...

Would allow police to get an eye on volume...and any dodgy people wanting amo for anything....and the administration argument is a no brainer...police take a 10% mark up at least.

what about the people who make their own ammo ;) and im sorry if i don't think that the cops should waste their time running a retail shop....

[The Pastor]

I'm going to be seriously outnumbered here, but I don't think the Greens are all numpties. Yes they have their share of ridiculously idealistic members, but hey if they didn't have a voice in parliament, NZ would probably be much worse off, not just environmentally. And our environment is important for many reasons, including economic ones (tourism).

As for the guns argument, every time some moron says we'd be safer if the cops all wore side arms, I reply with "Yes, then we'd all be safe, just like in the USA". A gun in each car is plenty for NZ. The reason we hear about it so often in the news is because the news loves fearmongering. If I were looking for inspiration for a shooting spree, the news is where I'd start.

I think our current system is pretty good - but how about when you buy a gun, the store keeps an electronic record of the purchase, gun type, perhaps a serial number (stamped into the metal on the gun), and takes a digital photo. Then at least the cops can trace the gun back to where it came from.

10mins with a file can get rid of serial numbers. (which all guns have btw)

[Banditbandit]

I think our current system is pretty good - but how about when you buy a gun, the store keeps an electronic record of the purchase, gun type, perhaps a serial number (stamped into the metal on the gun), and takes a digital photo. Then at least the cops can trace the gun back to where it came from.

When I first got a gun, you had to go to the police with a firearms licence and get a permit to procure a gun. You had to specify whch gun you wanted - .22, .303, .270. Then take that bit of paper to the shop, and buy the gun, go back to the police shop with the gun and register it against your name.

The system may not have been perfect, but it meant the cops had a list of all legally owned firearms in the country.

Godzone seemed a less violent place then (in general terms of criminal and street violence) and bcause of all the other factors it is impossible to say whether dropping that system increased the number of crimes committed with guns ... and the system certainly did not stop crims getting guns ...

The 1963 Basset Road machine Gun murders Jorgensen and Gillies) were commited with a45 calibre Reising submachine gun - a gun which was not thought to be obtainable in NZ - and certainly not legal ... so crims had illegal guns under the old regime ...

No idea what the answer is ... a good start would be to reduce the level of hatred, anger and violence in our society in general ...

I know .. now you're going to accuse me of being a tree-hugging wimping liberal ... I might agree .. it's been many years since I shot ... (ooops .. can't say that here ...:innocent:)

[Delerium]

You don't watch the news much do you. it seems like evey second item is some one held up some where with a gun.

Where i understand what you mean as being a shooter we will pay and there are already 1000's of guns on the streets but just ignoring the problem will not make it go away and if there is nothing done and it gets worse we will end up like the UK where you can't own any firearm.

At the moment i can go and purchase any firearm then sell it on the blackmarket and there will be no come back on me as there is no way of tracking any weapon purchased. as you know all they do is write it in a book and thats if you buy it from a dealer, private and your lucky if your asked to see a licence.

Cops find some weapon in the wrong hands and unless they know what shop sold it thats where the trail ends. If there was a registry, at least it could be tracked back to see where it should be, or if it had been stolen then they could be charged with recieving at the least.

I know this isn't the great fix that the greens are saying it will be but at least it is a start, and if your worrying about cost then you make it like vehicle rego and only pay when changed over.

Just becuase a few have made the news recently does NOT mean that there are lots occurring. As a percentage of crime it is very small, in the region of 1-3% Firearms crime is not common in nz. Dont be sucked into the media hype.

Registry doesnt work, whats to stop somebody giving it away and saying it was stolen? nothing. whats to stop somebody from saying they destroyed it as it was inoperable and giving it away. nothing. whats to stop it actually being stolen. nothing. in each case the registry is of no help. Google canada gun registry. Yes people are worried about cost. try 2 billion in canada (was meant to cost 10 million) and counting. no wonder they are abandoning it. Have a look into the accuracy of the registry for E, B and C cat firearms in nz. It isnt accurate at all. What benefit did it provide the canadians, australians and the UK, stuff all.

[Delerium]

What the fuck do you know? Did your sister tell you that after a good inbred fuck session?

The courier driver tragedy, well it was a tragedy but I believe that given a soldier or a competitive shooter, there could well have been the same outcome.

But please enlighten me on your wisdom on the subject:yes:

Police shoot once a year with pistols to remain current. a civilian owner MUST shoot 12 times a year to retain their license, and they are not doing it in high stress situations. Shooting a pistol effectively requires a lot of training, particularly in high stress and dynamic environments (action shooters routinely use 10,000 rounds plus a year)

[T.W.R]

I reload my own, I don't buy ammo...

Still have to buy Primers, Powder, & projectiles :yes: and cartridges can only be reloaded so many times before they're naffed

[Delerium]

What should happen...is all ammo that is purchased needs to be picked up from the police station...no matter what it is...slug gun pellets,arrows,shotgun cartridges,etc...

Would allow police to get an eye on volume...and any dodgy people wanting amo for anything....and the administration argument is a no brainer...police take a 10% mark up at least.

This will create a black market, and not really help in much way, increase the beauraucracy (sp) and cost. They will also have to store everything that realoaders use... you will need a MASSIVE ware house, and what about the people that live an hour from the nearest police station?

The licensed users in NZ dont enjoy the fact that firearms crime exists, we support workable measure to prevent it, but placing more restrictions on those that already abide by the law does not affect the criminally inclined.

[Banditbandit]

This will create a black market, and not really help in much way, increase the beauraucracy (sp) and cost. They will also have to store everything that realoaders use... you will need a MASSIVE ware house, and what about the people that live an hour from the nearest police station?

The licensed users in NZ dont enjoy the fact that firearms crime exists, we support workable measure to prevent it, but placing more restrictions on those that already abide by the law does not affect the criminally inclined.

There's already a black market ... you can't legally buy ammunition without a firearms licence - how many crims have one? Having a conviction often means one is revoked .. with little chance of getting it back ..

[BoristheBiter]

I know .. now you're going to accuse me of being a tree-hugging wimping liberal ... I might agree .. it's been many years since I shot ... (ooops .. can't say that here ...:innocent:)

please lets not go there again.:laugh:

[Swoop]

It isnt accurate at all. What benefit did it provide the canadians, australians and the UK, stuff all.
It kept a lot of shiney-arses employed shuffling paper and disappearing up their own fundamental orifice.

[jahrasti]

Police shoot once a year with pistols to remain current. a civilian owner MUST shoot 12 times a year to retain their license, and they are not doing it in high stress situations. Shooting a pistol effectively requires a lot of training, particularly in high stress and dynamic environments (action shooters routinely use 10,000 rounds plus a year)

Yes I know of the requirements to remain current with your endosement. With out nitpicking it is twice a year for the popos

A mate of mine who is a very busy competition shooter actually failed the qual one time :shutup:
hehe I still give him shit.

The point I have been trying to make is that a balance must be struck between training and peeps out on the street.

I would love to be able to go to the range an extra 12 times a year for free. That is an extra 12 days give or take a few hours each person each year there are not doing their job. Plus other mandated training (continuation training on other stuff).

Each time someone is training then they are not doing whatever they do. Some of it can be absorbed into training days for sure. Do we then need more people in the popo's to allow the minimum training requirements (12 days on the range) to be met? I don't don't think the gobermint would be keen on that.

My views on the firearms training, I believe to be a fair assessment. It is not coloured with rose coloured glasses with generic all is fine type statements.

I am lucky to be into firearms , been in the Military (cannon fodder) and now part of the big blue gang. The AWQ (qual shoot) for the Arminy is once a year :shutup: some do it more, some lucky to do it once a year but any soldier could be called upon to go somewhere at short notice.

If the people (voters) could get more training out of the gobermint, I would be jumping for joy.

Statements like "'meriken cops are always at the range" get thrown about. I am curious as to how much they are actually at the range same with aussie. I would like to know.

[Delerium]

Agreed, more range time requried, but I suspect its a case of time and $$$ that is stopping it, and there is a lot of misconceptions kicking around.

[jahrasti]

Agreed, more range time requried, but I suspect its a case of time and $$$ that is stopping it, and there is a lot of misconceptions kicking around.

look here mister, how dare you post shit like that :angry: I might have to start agreeing with you and where will that get us?

Seriously though I agree about the misconceptions. It is easy to bag the popo's with generic statements. The first bit of your post well I will have to keep that as an inside thought :innocent:

[scumdog]

Agreed, more range time requried, but I suspect its a case of time and $$$ that is stopping it, and there is a lot of misconceptions kicking around.

Damn right - there's so much training for everything cops do that each individual topic gets spread pretty thin when it comes to training.:yes:

[paturoa]

But it keeps getting back to how would this reduce firearms related crime and I just can't see it.

This is the goal right?????

From an analogy perspective, I've not seen the statistics, but I'm sure dogs attacks have NOT decreased since chipping. Particulalry for un-registerred dogs owned by arseholes.

So no - don't do it.

[bogan]

what they could do is make it madatory to have thermal optics, so when its pointed at a thermal mass around person size the gun wont fire :yes:

still a fucking stupid idea, but makes bout as much sense as registering them!

[ynot slow]

Registering firearms or person,has been done here,and is only good for honest citizens.Only the crims can't pass the arms test due to brain function being close to apes.

My firearms test back in 1979 was pretty easy,but then the arms officer knew me and family,the test was 90%written and oral testing,i.e hazards etc,firezone etc,and your attitude towards weapons maybe 10%,well that was my take,then the weapon was registered,I had a single shot .22,bought a bolt action .22 shortly later,that was registered,all under my name.

Can remember when my brother(16 at time) wanted to borrow the .22 when he was on a mates farm,told him no,he was pissed,so got his firearms license(I wouldn't let him take rifle as he had no license,and his mates were idiots(well one was),and anything happened it was me in the shit).

[Swoop]

but I'm sure dogs attacks have NOT decreased since chipping. Particulalry for un-registerred dogs owned by arseholes.
No. Liarbour mandated chipping as the soultion for dog attacks. :rolleyes:

There has never been another dog attack since. (Tui moment)
Liarbour wouldn't bring in a useless law just for the hell of it.:whistle::whistle::wacko:


Full firearms registration would work just as well.