www plumbing question - how does this work

[Big Dave]

or not work?

Currently If I go to
http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/index.html
it displays old pages. Todd and Chris Birch.

but if I go to (sans www)
http://kiwirider.co.nz/index.html
it's updated and showing as it should - shows the correct files locally and in server HTDocs folder.

Server plumbing awry and reading a cache from somewhere?

[phill-k]

who the fuck cares?

[Big Dave]

who the fuck cares?

well lets see - there are about 400 sessions per day on the site currently. Some of them would appreciate the update.

Me, cause I'd like to understand it without wading through pages of google.

And perhaps someone who would like to show their cleverness by explaining it all succinctly.

Lets call it 400.

Edit: nah that's over ambitious - say 150 for cruiser news.

[sinned]

Well I would like to understand what has occurred here.

Could only geeks who know about this shit reply? Probably asking too much!

[Gremlin]

The records for the domain seem to be correct, both the A record and the www records pointing to 207.57.66.47. This is for typing www in front of the domain, or not. This means at least it is looking at the same server for the website.

Now, on the hosting end, it needs to be checked that the host server is not sending the two requests to different places (bit grey here, I don't deal with this at all).

By FTP or SSH'ing into the server, you should be able to see if the files match each other, if they do, its the same place (a good thing). - come to think of it... I don't think this would make any difference, and probably couldn't go to two different places, with records correct etc.

Then, when was the website updated? It is possible there is caching, where the caching is, is a much bigger question. I doubt it would be the hosting server, but your ISP could quite possibly be caching, again, what time frame are we talking about.

Then there is always the old question, is the host having any problems in the background that might not be immediately apparent?

edit: where are the differences, they look the same to me?

[Big Dave]

Both files match - local and on server in the HTDocs folder. FTP all good.

First noticed about an hour ago.

Local machine cache cleared.

Site is on Domainz and their phones are busy.

[Big Dave]

Even weirderer Gremlin.

At this end -

In the www version it has a picture of todd and chris birch in the main frame

without www it shows a Harley in said frame - same in three different browsers

Some sort of server caching is my guess.

[vindy500]

Even weirderer Gremlin.

At this end -

In the www version it has a picture of todd and chris birch in the main frame

without www it shows a Harley in said frame - same in three different browsers

Some sort of server caching is my guess.

same from my computer

[Big Dave]

same from my computer

Cheers - Which one are you getting? Pic of a Harley?

I guess that would point to my ISP rather than the site hosting too.

[vindy500]

Cheers - Which one are you getting? Pic of a Harley?

I guess that would point to my ISP rather than the site hosting too.

sorry, I meant I'm having the same problem you are, seeing the two different pictures :/

[Big Dave]

Cool thanks - another discovery - if I take the '/index.html' off the URL it works fine.

[Ronin]

I get the harley on both pages using Orcon. You could try changing your DNS and seeing if it's ISP caching

[Big Dave]

I get the harley on both pages using Orcon. You could try changing your DNS and seeing if it's ISP caching

Yeah - I'm back to that line after seeing that the extension is doing it.

[Gremlin]

All sorted then?

edit: what ISP are you using?

[Mort]

could be caching on your ISP proxy. Disconnect your modem (switch it off) then restart. It should clear.

[Big Dave]

All sorted then?

edit: what ISP are you using?

'Best guess'.

Telecom big time's last gasps.

[Gremlin]

Yeup... definitely caching on that one...

In the words of a telecom support person: "Big Time does strange things to internet plans"

I just wanted port 25 back, and despite their claims, I'm still pretty damn sure I don't have it back.

[pete376403]

http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/index.html


http://kiwirider.co.nz/index.html

technically, aren't these considered two seperate web sites?
And the www.kiwirider.etc site has an alias to the non www address? (or vice versa)

[Big Dave]

could be caching on your ISP proxy. Disconnect your modem (switch it off) then restart. It should clear.

Done, but same result.

Still shows old page if the /index.html is added to the URL.

Cleared local cache again and even gave the computer a reboot for good measure while the modem was sparking up again.

All good sans extension added to URL.

[Gremlin]

http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/index.html


http://kiwirider.co.nz/index.html

technically, aren't these considered two seperate web sites?
And the www.kiwirider.etc site has an alias to the non www address? (or vice versa)
The key part is kiwirider.co.nz. This is a domain. Anything else is extra (ok, some exceptions, but lets not muddy the waters).

You then have "records" for kiwirider.co.nz. This is words and short bits in front of kiwirider.co.nz, eg, mail.kiwirider.co.nz, backup.kiwirider.co.nz, and there is no limit on quantity or setting. Equally, www is also a record. When setting up a domain, all this has to be created.

So, if you don't put the A record in (A record is nothing, ie, kiwirider.co.nz - and commonly pointed to same address as www - which incidently, A has to be an IP address, but www can be CNAME to the A record) but put in www, then typing kiwirider.co.nz won't work, but www.kiwirider.co.nz will work.

Enjoying it yet? :sunny:

edit: Thats also not to say, you could have web.kiwirider.co.nz (or www2 or something) and point it to a completely different server, with a completely different website, as long as the hosting server is configured to answer requests for kiwirider (a server can answer for multiple websites) and points it in the right direction

[Big Dave]

Confirmed plumbing on server is all correct - further points the ISP caching issue.

Everyone says 'Ahhhhhhhh....Telecom.....yeah.....'

I went googliimingming anyway

A cache server is a dedicated network server (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,289893,sid9_gci212964,00.html) or service acting as a server that saves Web pages or other Internet content locally. By placing previously requested information in temporary storage, or cache (http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci211728,00.html), a cache server both speeds up access to data and reduces demand on an enterprise's bandwidth. Cache servers also allow users to access content offline, including rich media (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,289893,sid9_gci212901,00.html) files or other documents. A cache server is sometimes called a "cache engine."
A cache server is almost always also a proxy server (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,289893,sid9_gci212840,00.html), which is a server that "represents" users by intercepting their Internet requests and managing them for users. Typically, this is because enterprise resources are being protected by a firewall (http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid14_gci212125,00.html) server. That server allows outgoing requests to go out but screens all incoming traffic. A proxy server helps match incoming messages with outgoing requests. In doing so, it is in a position to also cache the files that are received for later recall by any user. To the user, the proxy and cache servers are invisible; all Internet requests and returned responses appear to be coming from the addressed place on the Internet. (The proxy is not quite invisible; its IP (http://searchunifiedcommunications.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid186_gci214031,00.html) address has to be specified as a configuration option to the browser or other protocol program.)

[Gremlin]

so do you know what it all means basil?

Essentially, from an ISP point of view, it conserves bandwidth. 20 people view a vid, but the ISP retrieves it once

[Big Dave]

so do you know what it all means basil?

Essentially, from an ISP point of view, it conserves bandwidth. 20 people view a vid, but the ISP retrieves it once

Yea - thought it was t' issue from the onset but needed to confirm server was routed right, roger.

Why now? is more the question but if they are currently plumbing the demise of big time it would explain it I suspect.


Rascally routers routed right. oi oi - AD/DT

[Ronin]

You should still be able to change the DNS server in your modem. This will bypass telecoms cache as you wont be using their system to resolve your address requests. Having said that, they may block any other but I dont think so. Try orcons 60.234.1.1

@ Gremlin... as for port 25, good luck with that. I have a mailing list full of techs who want to cause much hurt to telecom.

[Grasshopperus]

If you're still struggling with this BD then you can try to bypass the Xtra caches by doing something like this

http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/index.html?asdasdad

http://kiwirider.co.nz/index.html?asdasdad

what I've done here is put this string at the end of the request '?asadasd' your site will probably ignore anything that looks like this but to the Xtra caches it will appear as a unique request.

If the actual '?asdasdas' stuff is totally random, change it however you want, the important part is to have '?' after your URL and something aftterwards.

The long-term solution is to put 'expires' headers on your webpages (that's a server setting) so that caches (like Xtra's) periodically refresh your content meaning you won't get into this situation in the first place.

Feel free to PM me if you've got other questions, running websites is something I do as part of my job.

Cheers

[Grasshopperus]

Oh, and for people who want to be able to tcp/25 to the world while using Xtra broadband.

info page http://telecom.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1218

opt-out page https://selfservice.xtra.co.nz/live/selfservice/serviceprofile/OpenPort25

I did this the other day, put in a couple of questions in a webform to reassure Xtra, pressed 'submit', reset my router and I was able to talk direct to mail servers straight afterwards. Took about 2 minutes.

[Big Dave]

Feel free to PM me if you've got other questions, running websites is something I do as part of my job.

Cheers

Thanks - still has the /index.html cached after the ? enquiry.

I'm not fussed this end - pretty sure what the prob is - concern is that anyone on telecom that has the site bookmarked that way doesn't see the latest updates.

It's now over 18 hours since the update. If it lasts much longer I'll consider installing an update page linky as well.

Chairs.

[Marmoot]

Cache issue aside, the way the server is configured means you have "two websites" to maintain.
Both http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/ and http://kiwirider.co.nz/ returns HTTP 200 (http://www.searchenginepromotionhelp.com/m/http-server-response/code-checker.php) response (i.e., page found OK).

Ideally, you should only have one (pick one, whether it is the "www" version or non-"www" version) for a lot of technical reasons which would take me an hour or two to explain to you (let me know if you want to hear).

To futureproof your website, the easiest way is to upload a .htaccess file (no name, just dot-htaccess) containing a HTTP 301 redirection from non-www to www (or the other way around if you so wish).
To do this from non-www to www, write the following into the .htaccess file:

Options +FollowSymLinks
RewriteEngine on
RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} ^kiwirider.co.nz [NC]
RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/$1 [L,R=301]

What would happen is when someone types "kiwirider.co.nz" or "http://kiwirider.co.nz" into their browser then the "www." part would be automatically added into it by your server and the user would see http://www.kiwirider.co.nz regardless of what was typed originally.
This way, you only need to make sure http://www.kiwirider.co.nz is behaving perfectly. Much easier maintenance.

[mashman]

You don't have any bypass proxy settings do you? or an edited hosts file that "points" kiwirider or www.kiwirider to any development server?

[Big Dave]

In the HTdocs folder? Mr Moot

[Big Dave]

You don't have any bypass proxy settings do you? or an edited hosts file that "points" kiwirider or www.kiwirider (http://www.kiwirider) to any development server?

Not that I'm aware of - it's hosted on domainz and they ran the tape over it this morning.

[mashman]

Not sure of your setup and how you do your testing. Do you host your test server externally? Do you have one?

Your hosts file is on your PC, but if you didn't know that then I doubt that that would be the case.

In regards to the proxy bypass settings,

IE: tools -> internet options -> connections -> LAN settings -> advanced

could be your ISP caching stuff for you :shifty:

[Big Dave]

could be your ISP caching stuff for you :shifty:
Great minds think alike. :-)

[Marmoot]

In the HTdocs folder? Mr Moot

In the same folder as your homepage.

[Marmoot]

P.S.
How happy are you with Statcounter.com ?
I am a bit surprised a solid entity as KiwiRider would remain with something so minimalist as this.

If it were me, I would look at Google Analytics (http://www.google.com/analytics). It's free, easy to install, and should give you more insights into what your website is doing.
(where your readers are coming from, etc)

Happy to help.

[Big Dave]

P.S.
How happy are you with Statcounter.com ?
I am a bit surprised a solid entity as KiwiRider would remain with something so minimalist as this.

If it were me, I would look at Google Analytics (http://www.google.com/analytics). It's free, easy to install, and should give you more insights into what your website is doing.
(where your readers are coming from, etc)

Happy to help.

Thanks - There are quite comprehensive urchin stats available with the hosting package - numerous drill downs - the stat counter just lets me compare main and blogger sites. Does that job fine and is otherwise unobtrusive. Only seen it slow to load a few times too.