Aftermarket wheels for new National SUPERBIKE rules

[Biggles08]

Well rumor has it that aftermarket wheels will be allowed this year for SUPERBIKES (And hopefully SUPERSPORT too). My Main sponsor CARROZZERIA is able to do a racers 'sponsored deal' for those interested. We have a package deal including all the items you need to gain the best from your new lightened wheels (DRIVEN Sprokets etc). $ for $ this is a great way to improve the performance of your motorcycle. It is a well known fact that unsprung weight is a massive issue and often overlooked in New Zealand to date.

This deal is only available by application and not all will have access to it. if you are interested in this deal, please send me a PM or contact me on 027 295 4457 to discuss the details more.

Cheers
Marcus:yes:

[gixerracer]

Well rumor has it that aftermarket wheels will be allowed this year for SUPERBIKES (And hopefully SUPERSPORT too). My Main sponsor CARROZZERIA is able to do a racers 'sponsored deal' for those interested. We have a package deal including all the items you need to gain the best from your new lightened wheels (DRIVEN Sprokets etc). $ for $ this is a great way to improve the performance of your motorcycle. It is a well known fact that unsprung weight is a massive issue and often overlooked in New Zealand to date.

This deal is only available by application and not all will have access to it. if you are interested in this deal, please send me a PM or contact me on 027 295 4457 to discuss the details more.

Cheers
Marcus:yes:

If this rule does get passed I think it one of the most stupid things ever done!:innocent:

[White trash]

If this rule does get passed I think it one of the most stupid things ever done!:innocent:

Holy shit, we agree on something! Great way to add four K to the cost of building a bike. 12 if you want three sets of trick rims.

[CHOPPA]

Holy shit, we agree on something! Great way to add four K to the cost of building a bike. 12 if you want three sets of trick rims.

Cant wait to get my new rims!

[Ronin]

Cant wait to get my new rims!

That's if the software will allow them :innocent:

[CHOPPA]

That's if the software will allow them :innocent:

BMW NZ are in the process of upgrading there whole network basically just so they can play with the S1000RR bloody good of em!

Interested to see if light wheels are hype or the real deal....????

[Biggles08]

If this rule does get passed I think it one of the most stupid things ever done!:innocent:
I don't :shifty:

[Biggles08]

Holy shit, we agree on something! Great way to add four K to the cost of building a bike. 12 if you want three sets of trick rims.
very presumptuous of you WT :blink:

[Shaun]

If this rule does get passed I think it one of the most stupid things ever done!:innocent:



100% agreed Craig. The riders loose out as it costs more to race now!

The Importers are the Only winners here

[Wingnut]

Isn't this proposal going against what everybody is jointly trying to achieve - to try and keep this sport at an affordable level? Sounds abit backwards to me - though if I could afford it, I would buy any trick parts purely for the wank factor!

[Shaun]

Isn't this proposal going against what everybody is jointly trying to achieve - to try and keep this sport at an affordable level? Sounds abit backwards to me -



Where to start on the Logic behind this

[codgyoleracer]

Agree with Craig & Shaun, and to tell you the truth - there are quite a few so- called "aftermarket lightweight wheels" out there (that are heavier than stock ones.........)

I run lightweight stuff in my Formula Class, - but if they wernt allowed, - it wouldnt bother me one bit. Its also one of those accessories that may put off new guys n gals when they are looking into the sport and they see the build costs for a competitve machine. (it all adds up).

It will be intersting to see the final version of the new rules when they come out, but my position on it is that given our current econmic times. (& even without that), The need for two classes of 1000's & 600's is minimal.
Who cares if they get around a race track 1.5sec faster - the average joe blo and specatator cant tell the difference.

Superstock machine spec with suspension/tyres open seems the go to me (as long as we have a competent technical steward at each round of course !).

And no i didnt get out of bed on the wrong side today....... :-)

Glen

[Biggles08]

The Importers are the Only winners here

And you say this like it is a bad thing here Shaun (even though I completely disagree)? Is it not a good thing to get more involvement from other importers such as my main sponsor to keep him interested in this market? Besides, as I have said $ for $ its actually a worthwhile cost to improve your bikes handling to complement the $$ you have spent on your aftermarket suspension such as Ohlins, Penske or WP.

Why do we need to place higher priority on suspension rather than unsprung weight (which you are doing by wanting aftermarket suspension but not wheels) ...its a debate that doesn't need to be had I don't believe....they both have merit. By allowing aftermarket wheels in the top performance class available (ie Superbikes and Supersport), we are adding value to the competition as a whole and putting a new dynamics into the class.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to spend money on after market bling, race super stock...that's what its there for.

[Biggles08]

Agree with Craig & Shaun, and to tell you the truth - there are quite a few so- called "aftermarket lightweight wheels" out there (that are heavier than stock ones.........)

I run lightweight stuff in my Formula Class, - but if they wernt allowed, - it wouldnt bother me one bit. Its also one of those accessories that may put off new guys n gals when they are looking into the sport and they see the build costs for a competitve machine. (it all adds up).

It will be intersting to see the final version of the new rules when they come out, but my position on it is that given our current econmic times. (& even without that), The need for two classes of 1000's & 600's is minimal.
Who cares if they get around a race track 1.5sec faster - the average joe blo and specatator cant tell the difference.

Superstock machine spec with suspension/tyres open seems the go to me (as long as we have a competent technical steward at each round of course !).

And no i didnt get out of bed on the wrong side today....... :-)

Glen

While I understand your reasoning Glen, at the end of the day like I have said before, natural selection will occur.

In the meantime, why do we allow one bling part and not the other? That's the question really. If we are going to have an 'open' class, rightly or wrongly shouldn't aftermarket wheels be allowed in this class?

[codgyoleracer]

And you say this like it is a bad thing here Shaun (even though I completely disagree)? Is it not a good thing to get more involvement from other importers such as my main sponsor to keep him interested in this market? Besides, as I have said $ for $ its actually a worthwhile cost to improve your bikes handling to complement the $$ you have spent on your aftermarket suspension such as Ohlins, Penske or WP.

Why do we need to place higher priority on suspension rather than unsprung weight (which you are doing by wanting aftermarket suspension but not wheels) ...its a debate that doesn't need to be had I don't believe....they both have merit. By allowing aftermarket wheels in the top performance class available (ie Superbikes and Supersport), we are adding value to the competition as a whole and putting a new dynamics into the class.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to spend money on after market bling, race super stock...that's what its there for.

Shaun and Craig have been around this circus a fair while mr Biggles :-), and i have no doubt that they have the sport as a whole in mind.

[Biggles08]

Shaun and Craig have been around this circus a fair while mr Biggles :-), and i have no doubt that they have the sport as a whole in mind.
Maybe...maybe not...I have my opinions on this and I'll keep them to myself :mellow:

[codgyoleracer]

While I understand your reasoning Glen, at the end of the day like I have said before, natural selection will occur.

In the meantime, why do we allow one bling part and not the other? That's the question really. If we are going to have an 'open' class, rightly or wrongly shouldn't aftermarket wheels be allowed in this class?

Yes , i see where you are coming from - but there is sooooooo much more accessories that should be added if wheels are allowed...... , Thats why British Supersport bikes cost 100,000 pound + nowadays.........

[Biggles08]

Yes , i see where you are coming from - but there is sooooooo much more accessories that should be added if wheels are allowed...... , Thats why British Supersport bikes cost 100,000 pound + nowadays.........
People will have to start deciding where their money is best spent I guess...we all have a limited budget. I don't think in this class, to a point, rules should not be the limiting factor.

[CHOPPA]

You dont actually need to go out and buy them. The likes of Bugden Stroud Sherriffs etcs will spank us on cast iron wheels.

The price of the Carrozzeria wheels is actually pretty good though, if you look at the retail on a standard set of oem for your bike including discs is about $3500? Well im pretty sure thats what you can pick up a set of carrozzeria wheels for including discs and a sprocket. There not as light as carbon or magnesium but they are less $$ and better then standard

[CHOPPA]

There is also the argument that this will only benefit dealers, well as I read in another thread the dealers are the ones that hold our sport together so we have to support them in some respects.

Ok thats enough batting for me untill I get my price.....

[onearmedbandit]

In the meantime, why do we allow one bling part and not the other? That's the question really. If we are going to have an 'open' class, rightly or wrongly shouldn't aftermarket wheels be allowed in this class?

I'm not a racer so my opinion means jack shit and probably isn't even welcome, but I would've thought aftermarket suspension would be more of a 'safety' issue than performance. Std suspension whilst good is not up to the riggers of full on racing, whereas the std rims are up to the task. Sure performance gains are there but they do not improve the safety of the bike per se.

[Shaun]

There is also the argument that this will only benefit dealers, well as I read in another thread the dealers are the ones that hold our sport together so we have to support them in some respects.

Ok thats enough batting for me untill I get my price.....



It will ONLY benefit Importers/dealers of the wheels!

It will also TAKE SALES of the manufacturers that keep our sport ALIVE in NZ

So where is the real benefit to this rule, if it is introduced

[Biggles08]

Ok thats enough batting for me untill I get my price.....
Hahaaa...you just quoted your price in your previous post didn't you?!

[imdying]

Holy shit, we agree on something! Great way to add four K to the cost of building a bike. 12 if you want three sets of trick rims.I see your point, but as the first post alluded to, the importers are happy to do deals for races, and you can get them out of the states from the likes of SK for about 2.4k a set.

[Biggles08]

I'm not a racer so my opinion means jack shit and probably isn't even welcome, but I would've thought aftermarket suspension would be more of a 'safety' issue than performance. Std suspension whilst good is not up to the riggers of full on racing, whereas the std rims are up to the task. Sure performance gains are there but they do not improve the safety of the bike per se.

There is so much to be discussed about this post and you are wrong...your opinion DOES mean shit :innocent:

The fact is reducing your unsprung weight improves your suspension regardless of if it is aftermarket or not....the variance of improvement is just dependent on the quality of your suspension (if that makes sense). So if you wish to argue safety reasons, then this issue remains relevant for aftermarket wheels as they improve how your suspension reacts to the road surface...especially on bumpy surfaces (which NZ has plenty of). Personally I believe in the open class, the reasoning of safety is a smoke screen as really they are after faster laps any way they can and if you can brake 20m later than your competition then you want them.:Punk:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm not a racer so my opinion means jack shit and probably isn't even welcome, but I would've thought aftermarket suspension would be more of a 'safety' issue than performance. Std suspension whilst good is not up to the riggers of full on racing, whereas the std rims are up to the task. Sure performance gains are there but they do not improve the safety of the bike per se.

The sooner we go back to senior production the better for NZ road racing. Fuck the mods full stop.

Over to you Robert...:shifty:

[imdying]

The fact is reducing your unsprung weight improves your suspension regardless of if it is aftermarket or notThat seems like a fair point... I've seen you nut jobs race, and at that pace everything sure better be working together harmoniously :mellow:

[onearmedbandit]

There is so much to be discussed about this post and you are wrong...your opinion DOES mean shit :innocent:

The fact is reducing your unsprung weight improves your suspension regardless of if it is aftermarket or not....the variance of improvement is just dependent on the quality of your suspension (if that makes sense). So if you wish to argue safety reasons, then this issue remains relevant for aftermarket wheels as they improve how your suspension reacts to the road surface...especially on bumpy surfaces (which NZ has plenty of). Personally I believe in the open class, the reasoning of safety is a smoke screen as really they are after faster laps any way they can and if you can brake 20m later than your competition then you want them.:Punk:


I know the advantages of light weight wheels, for my road bike I'd love a set of them not only for the improved look but the better acceleration, braking and response in handling. And in the open class I can understand 100% why you would want them. And I understand how they make your suspension work 'easier'. However, if you had the choice, would you rather run std suspension on NZ's tracks with aftermarket rims or vice-versa? (in terms of safety - my point being that ultimately suspension is a more critical upgrade that rims)

The only disadvantage I can see to them of course is the cost, and if teams are already struggling to pay the bills adding further opportunities for increased costs will only discourage them from competing. Yes it does seem to fly in the face of an 'open' class, but we are a small nation with limited money in this sport already.

Bring on an extra sponsor/supporter of the series is definitely attractive, only if however it doesn't mean the loss of any current supporters (dropping out due to increased cost).

Fuck I'd love to see BSB spec Superbikes racing here, what a sigh that would be. But can anyone afford it.

[Biggles08]

This is straight off the CARROZZERIA website FYI:

Carrozzeria Forged Rims are 20–40% lighter than stock, depending on model. Reducing weight on a motorcycle will always make it accelerate, corner and brake better, but some weight reductions are much more valuable then others. Motorcycle weight can be classified in two ways; sprung or unsprung and rotating or non-rotating. Wheel weight is both rotating and unsprung, which as you will read is the most significant weight to remove.

Sprung weight is everything that suspension holds up, unsprung weight is the wheel, sprocket, caliper, disks, axle and a percentage of the shock and swing arm. Unsprung weight is the nemesis of the suspension in the war to maintain tire contact with the tarmac. The less unsprung weight the more effectively the suspension and ultimately the tires can do their jobs. To explain this lets pretend you had a job in which you had to raise and lower a hammer as moving obstacles came by on some sort of moving conveyor belt. First you had a hammer with a 1 pound head. As the conveyor belt moved faster at some point it would become impossible to move quickly enough and the hammer would be hit be an obstacle. If you used a hammer with a ½ pound head you would be able to negotiate the moving obstacles at a greater speed. Now imagine the hammerhead is the wheel, your wrist is the suspension system and the moving conveyor with obstacles is the bumpy tarmac. This is why most cars have independent suspensions. Reducing unsprung weight will improve the traction especially in bumpy corners.
Rotating weight on a motorcycle counts twice every time you accelerate or brake. The reason for this is the engine must increase both the wheels’ linear velocity as well as their rotational velocity. It is a little more complicated in reality, but each pound you remove from the wheels is equal to approximately 2 or more pounds removed from the chassis. Reducing the weight of you wheels will allow your bike to not only accelerate faster, but brake better as well.

An additional benefit to reducing rotating weight it the reduction in gyro effect of the wheels. The easiest way to understand this is to conduct an experiment at home. Get the front wheel off your bicycle. Hold the axle with your hands and have a partner spin the wheel at a moderate speed. As the wheel spins pretend you are the forks and “turn” the wheel. You now have a feel for gyroscopic forces. Now imagine what a motorcycle wheel with much greater weight and speed goes through when you attempt to change directions quickly in a in a series of turns.

[Biggles08]

However, if you had the choice, would you rather run std suspension on NZ's tracks with aftermarket rims or vice-versa? (in terms of safety - my point being that ultimately suspension is a more critical upgrade that rims)

That is a fair point but also lacking in facts. Some stock suspension units are pretty bloody good...look at the Showa 'big bore' front end Nick Cole lugged his arse around on to WIN the 600cc class this year. This was on a modified stock front end ZX6R!

I'm not saying lighter wheels are more important than aftermarket suspension, but I certainly won't say they are less important for safety either. The point being, we should be able to choose in this class.

[CHOPPA]

Well the way I see it is I need a spare set of wheels and running aftermarket wheels is cheaper, if they are better or lighter remains to be seen but for now we will be running possibly Carrozzeria due to the savings

[Shaun]

That is a fair point but also lacking in facts. Some stock suspension units are pretty bloody good...look at the Showa 'big bore' front end Nick Cole lugged his arse around on to WIN the 600cc class this year. This was on a modified stock front end ZX6R!

I'm not saying lighter wheels are more important than aftermarket suspension, but I certainly won't say they are less important for safety either. The point being, we should be able to choose in this class.



What wheels are used by

British Supersport
AMA supersport
WSS
Australian Supersport

[onearmedbandit]

That is a fair point but also lacking in facts. Some stock suspension units are pretty bloody good...look at the Showa 'big bore' front end Nick Cole lugged his arse around on to WIN the 600cc class this year. This was on a modified stock front end ZX6R!


Very valid point and one I hadn't considered, std suspension due to racing is getting better.

I'm not saying lighter wheels are more important than aftermarket suspension, but I certainly won't say they are less important for safety either. The point being, we should be able to choose in this class.

You are right, in the open class you should be able to choose.

On a different note. As I said I'm not a racer, I don't put bikes through the stresses that you guys do, so I'm asking blindly here. Would a superbike be more likely to tie itself in knots on std suspension but aftermarket rims out of a long 3rd gear 'hard on the throttle' corner or the other way around, ie aftermarket suspension and std rims. I don't have an angle here, I'm genuinely interested.

[Biggles08]

Would a superbike be more likely to tie itself in knots on std suspension but aftermarket rims out of a long 3rd gear 'hard on the throttle' corner or the other way around, ie aftermarket suspension and std rims. I don't have an angle here, I'm genuinely interested.

Well I guess that would all depend on what bike and which corner....Ask Choppa what he can do around Pukekohe (a bumpy as fuck track) on a stock GSXR1000....sub minute I seem to recall.

[Biggles08]

What wheels are used by

British Supersport
AMA supersport
WSS
Australian Supersport

I have no idea...guess I should google it huh :shifty:. Whats your point here?

[Shaun]

I have no idea...guess I should google it huh :shifty:. Whats your point here?




Point is, they are NOT used best of my knoledge?

So again, WHY introduce some thing here, that is NOT used around the world?

[jellywrestler]

While I understand your reasoning Glen, at the end of the day like I have said before, natural selection will occur.


Natural selection occured some years ago when sports production was first introduced.
There was a Formula one class and Sports proddie, on the grid for F1 there were just two F1 machines, the rest were sports proddie bikes with slicks.
you've said yourself Biggles that it will compliment suspension and add Bling.
There's the answer in a nutshell, you don't say that it would be better to spend your money on wheels instead of (so it's another cost instead of an either or situation) only on top of.
If anyone wants bling (bling (bliŋ) noun ---showy and expensive jewelry or other ostentatious accessories flamboyant or ostentatious showiness; glitz )
added to their race machinery they should go Porsche racing alternatively My partner is pretty good with photo shop she can touch up your photos for a couple of cheap wines.(, although I wouldn't go as far as saying the attached piccie is exactly 'bling)

[Biggles08]

There's the answer in a nutshell, you don't say that it would be better to spend your money on wheels instead of (so it's another cost instead of an either or situation) only on top of.
It could be however Jelly...if you feel you can compete effectively by only spending money on one or the other you are free to do so....alternatively for the guys that are factory backed or have a sponsor willing to spend the coin you can have both (As an open class should allow). The choice is there whereas at the moment it is not (well shortly it will be).

I think the truth is, people involved in motorcycle racing do actually KNOW how good reducing unsprung weight actually is and therefore know it will be money well spent...that's why there is some resistance because currently NZ Motorcycle racing has by default put more $$$ worth on aftermarket suspension rather than reducing the weight of your rims as there has been no representation in NZ for promoting this key issue....now there is.

I think it will add good interest in this new area of performance enhancement. I know how much better my 2007 ZX6R brakes and accelerates with my CARROZZERIA wheels on...its a no brainier to me. In fact, talking about safety, FYI my front suspension is 100% stock KAWASAKI OEM, includeing the OEM springs (2007 vintage too remember, not the new big bore one) and always has been. If I could afford to I would have aftermarket internals too but I have chosen to race with the wheels instead. Even a slow racer like me can do 1:35's around Taupo full track on this setup. :Punk:

[White trash]

I see your point, but as the first post alluded to, the importers are happy to do deals for races, and you can get them out of the states from the likes of SK for about 2.4k a set.

Nope. The first post says "applications for deals", not "Deals for all racers". I'm pretty sure if I rang Marcus and asked for three sets of nice wheels (and don't get me wrong, they're FUCKING nice wheels) as a sponsorship deal his people would tell me to get fucked and rightly so. Mr Stroud on the other hand........

I've got no problem with the wheels, Marcus' sponsor or the deals they're prepared top do or not do. The fact is, that at even 2.5K a set, it's added 6.5K to start of the season before you've even turned a wheel (excuse the pun) over importing a couple of extra sets of stock wheels from the good ol' U S of A.

However, credit where credit's due to Biggles for maximising his sponsors potential growth through the new rule changes. He's probably the best ambassedor for ANY of his sponsors I've yet seen.

[RDjase]

How much do standard wheels weigh comapared to aftermarket?

Are slicks lighter than dot tyres?

Are there lighter race tyres available? and what if any specs have changed in tyre weight over the years?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nope. The first post says "applications for deals", not "Deals for all racers"..

If you're gonna go racing again...buy the cheapest you can get. You'll no doubt smash a few when you barrel roll the bike a few times!

[Biggles08]

The fact is, that at even 2.5K a set, it's added 6.5K to start of the season before you've even turned a wheel (excuse the pun) over importing a couple of extra sets of stock wheels from the good ol' U S of A..

That's an interesting equation WT...I think possibly some female reasoning there too! Care to explain the $6.5k?

Whilst riding with wet tires attached to a nice set of CARROZZERIA wheels would be an ideal situation, we all know the benefits are drastically reduced in wet conditions for any racer and the equipment they are on. The benefits of having x2 sets or more of these wheels would realistically be minimal and stock rims would suffice for most in the rain. So going with your figure of $2.5k per set; The grand extra total for most would be $2.5k (that by the way is not the correct figure, just using it as WT did.)

But really we digress, if someone in the "open" class wants to spend the money, I think they should be allowed...as should they be allowed to spend $20k on the latest Ohlins from Europe if they want too. After all, the whole idea of this class is to have a point of difference from "Stock" class.

[Biggles08]

If you're gonna go racing again...buy the cheapest you can get. You'll no doubt smash a few when you barrel roll the bike a few times!
The CARROZZERIA wheels are 1.8 times stronger than standard cast wheels so he may be ok :yes:

[imdying]

Nope. The first post says "applications for deals", not "Deals for all racers".I assumed that was just to weed out the non racers?

I'm pretty sure if I rang Marcus and asked for three sets of nice wheels (and don't get me wrong, they're FUCKING nice wheels) as a sponsorship deal his people would tell me to get fucked and rightly so. Mr Stroud on the other hand........Yup, they're very nice indded... but I don't think the intention was to give them away to all and sundry in the first place!

The fact is, that at even 2.5K a set, it's added 6.5K to start of the season before you've even turned a wheel (excuse the pun) over importing a couple of extra sets of stock wheels from the good ol' U S of A.How's that, can you get a couple of extra stock sets from the states for free?

[Crasherfromwayback]

The CARROZZERIA wheels are 1.8 times stronger than standard cast wheels so he may be ok :yes:

They'll need to be ten times stronger to handle his riding mate!

[Biggles08]

How much do standard wheels weigh comapared to aftermarket?

Are slicks lighter than dot tyres?

Are there lighter race tyres available? and what if any specs have changed in tyre weight over the years?
VERY good questions!

For the tires, I'm pretty sure most racers would like 'grip' over lighter compounds...if we could have both I'm sure we would. The Dunlop 211GP's a F#$king heavy tires with a super thick tire wall so I would say the slicks would be lighter...but maybe not. Like I said, a tires job is to grip which leaves the rest of the un-sprung weight to be minimized as best you can...which obviously includes the wheels.

As far as stock weight vs aftermarket wheels like CARROZZERIA wheels, its hard to give an exact figure as every manufactures wheels vary in weight and indeed within the same model of bike too (Due to the inconsistencies in cast products...but this weight difference is minimal).
They are between 20% - %40 lighter than stock wheels, but then you have to look at how this weight is distributed in the actual wheels. Another point is the added rigidity of the wheels. Because they are Forged alloy, they are more consistent grain (which provides the extra strength) but this also makes the wheels flex less. I can notice a difference in the 'feel' in my front end when I have the CARROZZERIA wheels on vs Stock because of this. For my bike, the back wheel setup is approx 2.8kg lighter with the CARROZZERIA wheels setup on.

Basically the best way to describe the feeling difference is when I have the CARROZZERIA wheels on my ZX6R 600cc bike, it makes it feel like I'm riding a smaller frame like a 250cc bike...but with 600cc+ horsepower. I imagine the same would be for a Superbike.

The first thing I noticed when I put the wheels on was my increased acceleration of my bike. Starts all of a sudden became a wheelie fest and I had to re-learn the launch clutch control. Second thing was the braking later. I moved my braking marker 20m at Manfield front straight further forward (which in reality was probably where everyone else was braking to start with:shit:)

They are amazing to ride on...

[Maido]

IMO I don't think light weight wheels should be allowed. While I am all for the latest gadgets and mods I don't think these fit into the rule set and angle of the rules.

To me, the current rule set (and more so the proposed rule set) tend to be aimed at evening up the different strengths and weaknesses the current bikes have. The mods allowed lean themselves to the engine producing similar horsepower. ie compression, cam timing in the old rules, and more so now with camshafts (A/m camshafts can be dialed to neutralise the bottom end on a Honda or the top end of a Yamaha etc) so in this sense the bikes will be more similar, rider skill and bike setup will be rewarded.

Wheels are something that all bikes have anyway and they are all pretty much within a similar weight bracket between manufacturers, so allowing lightweight wheels, while reducing unsprung weight and its effects, is really just a modification for the sake of modifying something.
Believe me, I would love a set, the std Enkeis on Hondas are one of the heavier std rims around and I would love to ditch them, i have alot to gain by changing but I really don't see the sense.

Its like data logging systems, they are icing that isn't really required but are fun to work with.

I think you do wonderful advertising for your sponsors Biggles, and I can see this is something you are really passionate about, but my personal opinion is that the wheel rules should stay how they are. Guess we will find out tomorrow. :scooter:

[Biggles08]

IMO I don't think light weight wheels should be allowed. Nobody cares what you SI boys think anyway:bleh:



To me, the current rule set (and more so the proposed rule set) tend to be aimed at evening up the different strengths and weaknesses the current bikes have. The mods allowed lean themselves to the engine producing similar horsepower. ie compression, cam timing in the old rules, and more so now with camshafts (A/m camshafts can be dialed to neutralise the bottom end on a Honda or the top end of a Yamaha etc) so in this sense the bikes will be more similar, rider skill and bike setup will be rewarded.
I don't think this is the intention of the new proposed changes at all. I believe the main reason for these rule changes is to provide a less expensive, more even playing field in the STOCK classes and at the same time making the SUPERSPORT / SUPERBIKE classes as different to this new STOCK class as possible. There is no point having two national classes in each engine cc classes too similar to each other...this was the problem at last years rounds so no-body ran in the Stock class. This year I believe it will be a 50 / 50 split between stock / sport classes because they are two completely animals.



Wheels are something that all bikes have anyway and they are all pretty much within a similar weight bracket between manufacturers, so allowing lightweight wheels, while reducing unsprung weight and its effects, is really just a modification for the sake of modifying something.
Believe me, I would love a set, the std Enkeis on Hondas are one of the heavier std rims around and I would love to ditch them, i have alot to gain by changing but I really don't see the sense.
I disagree completely and the same argument can be said about suspension. I don't ever remember seeing a bike come out of the factory with no rear suspension:shifty:. The fact is, reducing unsprung weight has massive advantages in your bikes suspension performance and it is anything but a gimmick, morelike 'physics' I would suggest. You have to have riden it to appreciate the merits I think.



Its like data logging systems, they are icing that isn't really required but are fun to work with.
Bad example but I do understand your point...even though as explained above I disagree with it.



I think you do wonderful advertising for your sponsors Biggles, and I can see this is something you are really passionate about, but my personal opinion is that the wheel rules should stay how they are. Guess we will find out tomorrow. :scooter:

Why thank you J...we try our best...but I feel the need to have a last little swing here...the lighter wheels are 'bigger' than my sponsor and the physics do back it up.:yes:

[Robert Taylor]

There is so much to be discussed about this post and you are wrong...your opinion DOES mean shit :innocent:

The fact is reducing your unsprung weight improves your suspension regardless of if it is aftermarket or not....the variance of improvement is just dependent on the quality of your suspension (if that makes sense). So if you wish to argue safety reasons, then this issue remains relevant for aftermarket wheels as they improve how your suspension reacts to the road surface...especially on bumpy surfaces (which NZ has plenty of). Personally I believe in the open class, the reasoning of safety is a smoke screen as really they are after faster laps any way they can and if you can brake 20m later than your competition then you want them.:Punk:

Heck you are beginning to sound like me! For the record I thought the rules as they were largely werent ''broken''

[White trash]

That's an interesting equation WT...I think possibly some female reasoning there too! Care to explain the $6.5k?



How's that, can you get a couple of extra stock sets from the states for free?

I'm basing on an estimate of 2.5K a set. Three sets comes to seven and a half.

For stock wheels, you only need to buy another two pairs as MOST bikes I've seen come with a shiney wheel attached at the bottom of the forks and another snugly in the swing arm. So at $500 a set, it'll cost you a grand.

We take a grand off seven and a half grand, and after that complete bastard of a calculation, we get to a 6 and a half grand. For goodness sake girls, try to keep up :D

It matters not how much stronger they are than stock GSXR wheels anyway Marcus, you've seen me try to ride. I can fuck em up real good :)

[Maido]

I am not one to usually join in a quote fest but here we go.....


Nobody cares what you SI boys think anyway:bleh:



I don't think this is the intention of the new proposed changes at all. I believe the main reason for these rule changes is to provide a less expensive, more even playing field in the STOCK classes and at the same time making the SUPERSPORT / SUPERBIKE classes as different to this new STOCK class as possible. There is no point having two national classes in each engine cc classes too similar to each other...this was the problem at last years rounds so no-body ran in the Stock class. This year I believe it will be a 50 / 50 split between stock / sport classes because they are two completely animals.

I think you missed my point, no doubt are the rules for stock and supersport entirely different, i am not questioning that at all. As you say, and everyone knows, the separate internal classes weren't very well subscribed to last year inidependantly, this is definately due to the fact that the differnces weren't far enough apart. I agree there will be an even number is each class this year also (well I hope so anyways!)
I am saying inside those classes the rules are setup to neutralise the bikes, meaning making each brand as similar as possible so rider skill and setup wins over horsepower.


I disagree completely and the same argument can be said about suspension. I don't ever remember seeing a bike come out of the factory with no rear suspension:shifty:. The fact is, reducing unsprung weight has massive advantages in your bikes suspension performance and it is anything but a gimmick, morelike 'physics' I would suggest. You have to have riden it to appreciate the merits I think.

I think suspension is a completely different arguement. The stock suspenders aren't up to pushing to the limit, or over the limit in some cases, you only have to race on most factory rear shocks to feel them fade over the span of a 10 lap race. I have no doubt at all would changing the wheels on your bike make a huge handling difference, and you would definately go faster with less rotating mass and the ability to tune the suspension better.
What I am saying is you can still push 100% on std rims throughout a race without risking safetly or them changing characteristic unlike stock suspension where it fades and can become dangerous.


Why thank you J...we try our best...but I feel the need to have a last little swing here...the lighter wheels are 'bigger' than my sponsor and the physics do back it up.:yes:

Again, I am not doubting the "physics" behind these wheels, or trying to infer your doing this to make a quick buck for your sponsor, not at all, I am all for looking after the support crew and good on you for doing it.
I agree they are awesome, and i would love to have them (I am like a magpie for shiney stuff lol), but I am looking at the average guy trying to race a bike on a budget.

Anyways, if the rules change to allow it I will be giving you a ring haha! buddy pal! nudge nudge

[Maido]

Whoops i posted twice, er um, as you were..

[gixerracer]

What a F--kn Joke. I got my wheels today man they are cool

[Crasherfromwayback]

You 'racers' that think stock suspension can become 'dangerous' when it gets hot are soft in the head. Bit like saying we should shorten races in case the tyre gets too hot and become dangerous!!!

It's a fact of life/racing. Ride accordingly.

[98tls]

How much do standard wheels weigh comapared to aftermarket?

Are slicks lighter than dot tyres?

Are there lighter race tyres available? and what if any specs have changed in tyre weight over the years?

From memory there was around 7kgs difference between the oem rims and the Carrozzerias i put on my old TL.

[Biggles08]

What a F--kn Joke. I got my wheels today man they are cool Now you gotta just put some knobblys on em and way you go!!! wooooop

[Biggles08]

I am not one to usually join in a quote fest but here we go.....
lots of other stuff in here too....


Still, we are all going to have to race on stock suspension in the New Stock class...the rules are out and its stock suspension! Going to be carnage me thinks!:blink: look here (http://nzsbk.blogspot.com/2010/07/new-zealand-2011-superstock-600-and.html)

hehe...but seriously I really do believe a good racer will ride the machine to its limit and have some sort of understanding as to where that is regardless of the wheels or suspension setup. The ownership is completely on the rider to push when he/she can and to back off when required...not blame our tools or lack of modifications.

I still maintain that for the 'safety' argument, reducing unsprung weight is arguably equally as important as any other handling modification you can make to a race bike, including changing from the stock suspension...they are equally as effective in making safety improvements to your bike. I quote a bit from the CARROZZERIA website here again which tells my point a bit better:

"Unsprung weight is the nemesis of the suspension in the war to maintain tire contact with the tarmac. The less unsprung weight the more effectively the suspension and ultimately the tires can do their jobs. To explain this lets pretend you had a job in which you had to raise and lower a hammer as moving obstacles came by on some sort of moving conveyor belt. First you had a hammer with a 1 pound head. As the conveyor belt moved faster at some point it would become impossible to move quickly enough and the hammer would be hit be an obstacle. If you used a hammer with a ½ pound head you would be able to negotiate the moving obstacles at a greater speed. Now imagine the hammerhead is the wheel, your wrist is the suspension system and the moving conveyor with obstacles is the bumpy tarmac. This is why most cars have independent suspensions. Reducing unsprung weight will improve the traction especially in bumpy corners. "

That sounds like a pretty good safety feature wouldn't you agree?

[Biggles08]

You 'racers' that think stock suspension can become 'dangerous' when it gets hot are soft in the head. Bit like saying we should shorten races in case the tyre gets too hot and become dangerous!!!

It's a fact of life/racing. Ride accordingly.

Your making Way too much sense here!!!

[Biggles08]

Heck you are beginning to sound like me! For the record I thought the rules as they were largely werent ''broken''

And I'm a sucker for red wine.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:shit:

[Tony.OK]

From memory there was around 7kgs difference between the oem rims and the Carrozzerias i put on my old TL.

That difference gets smaller and smaller the newer the bike, OEM wheels are getting lighter all the time.

Another way to look at it perhaps is that instead of a lower budgeted team spending large $$ on chasing a few extra HP with costly engine work, they use lighter wheels to gain some power/weight instead, feels like extra HP, prob costs less and saves money on the extra eng maintenance?

That all go's out the window if every advantage needs to be had though, this year will be interesting to see what the class/subclass ratio's are.............have a feeling the Stock classes may be more than just field fillers.

At the end of the day, NZ's versions of "the aliens" will still be at the pointy end, they'll probably have spent more tis all.

[CHOPPA]

I'm basing on an estimate of 2.5K a set. Three sets comes to seven and a half.

For stock wheels, you only need to buy another two pairs as MOST bikes I've seen come with a shiney wheel attached at the bottom of the forks and another snugly in the swing arm. So at $500 a set, it'll cost you a grand.

We take a grand off seven and a half grand, and after that complete bastard of a calculation, we get to a 6 and a half grand. For goodness sake girls, try to keep up :D

It matters not how much stronger they are than stock GSXR wheels anyway Marcus, you've seen me try to ride. I can fuck em up real good :)

If you can find me 2 sets of wheels for my bike ill pay you $1500 for them trashy!

[Kiwi Graham]

What a F--kn Joke. I got my wheels today man they are cool
There not ment to be cool theree meant to be light :shifty:


Now you gotta just put some knobblys on em and way you go!!! wooooop
Sand tyres would be the go.

New rules suit my class just fine thanks just need to see if I remember how to ride the damn thing.

[98tls]

That difference gets smaller and smaller the newer the bike, OEM wheels are getting lighter all the time.

Another way to look at it perhaps is that instead of a lower budgeted team spending large $$ on chasing a few extra HP with costly engine work, they use lighter wheels to gain some power/weight instead, feels like extra HP, prob costs less and saves money on the extra eng maintenance?

That all go's out the window if every advantage needs to be had though, this year will be interesting to see what the class/subclass ratio's are.............have a feeling the Stock classes may be more than just field fillers.

At the end of the day, NZ's versions of "the aliens" will still be at the pointy end, they'll probably have spent more tis all.

Have read lately of a few on the TL site that have fitted late model GSXR front ends etc but cant remember the difference in rim weight(getting old lol).Have to add that the difference when riding the TL with Carrozzerias feels way more than 6-7 kgs,am used to it now but can remember the first time i rode it and :gob: was absolutely gobsmacked,felt a completely different bike.

[Robert Taylor]

And you say this like it is a bad thing here Shaun (even though I completely disagree)? Is it not a good thing to get more involvement from other importers such as my main sponsor to keep him interested in this market? Besides, as I have said $ for $ its actually a worthwhile cost to improve your bikes handling to complement the $$ you have spent on your aftermarket suspension such as Ohlins, Penske or WP.

Why do we need to place higher priority on suspension rather than unsprung weight (which you are doing by wanting aftermarket suspension but not wheels) ...its a debate that doesn't need to be had I don't believe....they both have merit. By allowing aftermarket wheels in the top performance class available (ie Superbikes and Supersport), we are adding value to the competition as a whole and putting a new dynamics into the class.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to spend money on after market bling, race super stock...that's what its there for.

Its all very well quoting that ''chestnut'' but I think any racer if he had a choice between light weight wheels and quality aftermarket suspension would choose suspension first, because at least you can tailor it to every track. If you put aftermarket wheels on sure you get better steering response etc etc but well tuned and optimised suspension is still a far higher priority.
The stark reality is that by and large the previous Supersport 600 and Superbike rules were very ''close''. And its not without a touch of more than a little cynicism that myself and many others heard verbally from road race commission people ''we want to align our rules closely with Australia'' Its likely in print somewhere as well.
Well then on the subject of lightweight wheels and now allowing aftermarket rear link sets the new rules are to the best of my knowledge very out of step with Australia. ( If Im wrong on that Ill profusely apologise )
Id have to question if the allowance for rear links is because of the 09 R1 link( a model with a very progressive link ratio ) In which case you cannnot blame them for pushing that but many will question conflict of interest if a Yamaha team is resurrected. Just an observation. Im helping out Tony Rees again but did not push for links as I dont want to see the floodgates opened on those nor any potential safety issues with badly made homemade possibilities etc. Moreover we would have accepted what was there but now there is another significant cost on that front. The rear link ratios on the Ducati 848 through 1198 and Triumph 675s are also ridiculously progressive but I dont recall the same people now making noise about links having in the past made noise on behalf of the riders of those models? I have all the link force curves and wheel force curves on file for all the popular 600cc class and Superbikes, courtesy of Ohlins Racing, Sweden.
Many years back ( before Biggles and many others attended road races ) we raced a GSXR1000K1 with Ohlins forks on it. The rider would have won the title that year but for an inopportune crash and aftermarket forks were promptly banned ever since. We did not make a noise about it and conceded that it was ''a bridge too far''
It would be great to sell a lot of fork sets as it would be great to sell a lot of wheel sets but the cold hard reality is it is a step too far. I can also say with total authority ( from a phone conversation late this afternoon ) that at least one major distributor of motorcycles thinks exactly the same thing because it raises the costs significantly. THAT WILL IMPACT HOW MANY RIDERS THEY CAN HELP AND BY HOW MUCH THEY CAN HELP THEM
Natural selection will occur and you have to wonder aloud if this is a DELIBERATE AGENDA to get rid of the Superbike and Supersport 600 classes? BTW I am not the first person to suggest that on this forum?
Lightweight wheels are nice but they are not top of the priority list and their allowed use is out of step with many other similiar domestic racing formulae around the world.
Given this folly I wouldnt blame the major distributors to pull the pin and say bugger you, we will support the Tri Series and Street races only.........................
I think also that if you spoke to most of the Superbike regulars they like Craig will be aghast at this folly.

[Mental Trousers]

And you say this like it is a bad thing here Shaun (even though I completely disagree)? Is it not a good thing to get more involvement from other importers such as my main sponsor to keep him interested in this market?




This deal is only available by application and not all will have access to it. if you are interested in this deal, please send me a PM or contact me on ....

Great if everyone had access to this deal (or something like it). But otherwise ..... <_<

[Biggles08]

Its all very well quoting that ''chestnut'' but I think any racer if he had a choice between light weight wheels and quality aftermarket suspension would choose suspension first, because at least you can tailor it to every track. If you put aftermarket wheels on sure you get better steering response etc etc but well tuned and optimised suspension is still a far higher priority.
The stark reality is that by and large the previous Supersport 600 and Superbike rules were very ''close''. And its not without a touch of more than a little cynicism that myself and many others heard verbally from road race commission people ''we want to align our rules closely with Australia'' Its likely in print somewhere as well.
Well then on the subject of lightweight wheels and now allowing aftermarket rear link sets the new rules are to the best of my knowledge very out of step with Australia. ( If Im wrong on that Ill profusely apologise )
Id have to question if the allowance for rear links is because of the 09 R1 link( a model with a very progressive link ratio ) In which case you cannnot blame them for pushing that but many will question conflict of interest if a Yamaha team is resurrected. Just an observation. Im helping out Tony Rees again but did not push for links as I dont want to see the floodgates opened on those nor any potential safety issues with badly made homemade possibilities etc. Moreover we would have accepted what was there but now there is another significant cost on that front. The rear link ratios on the Ducati 848 through 1198 and Triumph 675s are also ridiculously progressive but I dont recall the same people now making noise about links having in the past made noise on behalf of the riders of those models? I have all the link force curves and wheel force curves on file for all the popular 600cc class and Superbikes, courtesy of Ohlins Racing, Sweden.
Many years back ( before Biggles and many others attended road races ) we raced a GSXR1000K1 with Ohlins forks on it. The rider would have won the title that year but for an inopportune crash and aftermarket forks were promptly banned ever since. We did not make a noise about it and conceded that it was ''a bridge too far''
It would be great to sell a lot of fork sets as it would be great to sell a lot of wheel sets but the cold hard reality is it is a step too far. I can also say with total authority ( from a phone conversation late this afternoon ) that at least one major distributor of motorcycles thinks exactly the same thing because it raises the costs significantly. THAT WILL IMPACT HOW MANY RIDERS THEY CAN HELP AND BY HOW MUCH THEY CAN HELP THEM
Natural selection will occur and you have to wonder aloud if this is a DELIBERATE AGENDA to get rid of the Superbike and Supersport 600 classes? BTW I am not the first person to suggest that on this forum?
Lightweight wheels are nice but they are not top of the priority list and their allowed use is out of step with many other similiar domestic racing formulae around the world.
Given this folly I wouldnt blame the major distributors to pull the pin and say bugger you, we will support the Tri Series and Street races only.........................
I think also that if you spoke to most of the Superbike regulars they like Craig will be aghast at this folly.
There is way too much to answer in this post BUT I will make one point....check out the list price for standard rims from Kawasaki (as I know this brand) and then tell me the CARROZZERIA rims are too expensive! I would hazzard a guess that many stock rims are MORE EXPENSIVE than the racers deal my main sponsor is prepared to do. In fact Choppa has already come out and said it is a better option for him to buy CARROZZERIA wheels than stock. I can't talk for other wheel manufacturers but I know Rodd has put a fair margin on the wheels and he is here for the fun of it...not to make massive profits. He is a person we should be encouraging to participate in this sport through product involvement.

Also, aftermarket wheels may not be hign on your priority list but they certainly are on mine (for obvious reasons) but I think in the 'open' classes people should be allowed to choose where they spend there budget.

[Biggles08]

Great if everyone had access to this deal (or something like it). But otherwise ..... <_<
have you asked???

[Mental Trousers]

have you asked???

You missed the point. If a good deal on lightweight wheels is only available to a select number of people how does it benefit the class??

[Biggles08]

You missed the point. If a good deal on lightweight wheels is only available to a select number of people how does it benefit the class??

I think your missing the point actually....do you expect every racer to get the same deal as Stroud?

[Mental Trousers]

I think your missing the point actually....do you expect every racer to get the same deal as Stroud?

Win as much as he has and there's no reason people can't get the same deals. But that's the nature of sponsorship. However, there aren't that many sponsors around who'd been keen on lumping another $4k (arbitrary figure someone used earlier in the thread) to the cost of getting a bike on track. No matter how you look at it lightweight wheels = cheque book racing. It raises the cost of staying competitive.

[snapoff]

I think your missing the point actually....do you expect every racer to get the same deal as Stroud?

with 8 kids im surprised the tax payer's arnt paying for his wheels (o that's right we are)

[98tls]

Win as much as he has and there's no reason people can't get the same deals. But that's the nature of sponsorship. However, there aren't that many sponsors around who'd been keen on lumping another $4k (arbitrary figure someone used earlier in the thread) to the cost of getting a bike on track. No matter how you look at it lightweight wheels = cheque book racing. It raises the cost of staying competitive.

Since when was racing a bike in the classes that one would buy aftermarket rims supposed to be cheap,its not like anybody would need to buy a new set every season there as strong as hell.Not having a crack MT but staying competitive costs i would have thought and considering the difference made by the rims surely justified.

[CHOPPA]

Win as much as he has and there's no reason people can't get the same deals. But that's the nature of sponsorship. However, there aren't that many sponsors around who'd been keen on lumping another $4k (arbitrary figure someone used earlier in the thread) to the cost of getting a bike on track. No matter how you look at it lightweight wheels = cheque book racing. It raises the cost of staying competitive.

So would you not have spare wheels?

[Robert Taylor]

There is way too much to answer in this post BUT I will make one point....check out the list price for standard rims from Kawasaki (as I know this brand) and then tell me the CARROZZERIA rims are too expensive! I would hazzard a guess that many stock rims are MORE EXPENSIVE than the racers deal my main sponsor is prepared to do. In fact Choppa has already come out and said it is a better option for him to buy CARROZZERIA wheels than stock. I can't talk for other wheel manufacturers but I know Rodd has put a fair margin on the wheels and he is here for the fun of it...not to make massive profits. He is a person we should be encouraging to participate in this sport through product involvement.

Also, aftermarket wheels may not be hign on your priority list but they certainly are on mine (for obvious reasons) but I think in the 'open' classes people should be allowed to choose where they spend there budget.

Yes but the point is if the class is too open no-one will be able to compete. No one doubts the technical advantages of light wheels but even the motorcycle distributors have cost constraints and they are the most likely to purchase. Even then ( as with suspension ) there is no hard and fast guarantee that they will choose your sponsors brand. When it comes to price the unfortunate reality is that many purchasers are first and foremost loyal to their pockets because there just arent a lot of wealthy bpeople that race motorcycles, and they have spending limits. In our game we have to be very alert and flexible to that and that is exactly why we dont live the high life!
What is your sponsors forecast for wheel sales for road, road race and trackday, for example?
In the end event spending gets proriitised and it would be a brave person that carries a lot of stock. Manufacturers of product generally like forward orders and sales forecasts so they can plan their production.

[lostinflyz]

as someone racing in a class with after market rims, and i have bought some before they are a MASSIVE expense, that is a huge struggle to justify. The reality is that ANY aluminium wheel is inferior to magnesium wheels and carbon fibre, so you have to look there. In all our race classes bikes are pretty well far in excess of 20k to setup from stock excluding wheels and another 3-5 grand on proper lightweight rims (per set) is a 25% increase in setup costs, which is nigh on prohibitive.

While cool there is little point to having them, outside dropping lap times. If no one has them, no one needs them.

I'm fast running out of cash and couldn't afford the 2k US for cheap marvics, let alone the 3.5-4k US for marchesini's or BST's. I got a set of Ducati 999 rims to fit for sub 600 dollars (including brake and sprocket). Thats quite a price difference. Sportbike rims are avaliable ex the USA for absolutely nothing (about 150-200USD), and theres hundreds

If you want to have after market rims, allow only aluminium rims to be legal . This allows stock rims to not be at significant disadvantage to aftermarket items, while allowing alternate rims to be used for people like mr biggles or if you want to run another bikes or style.

[gixerracer]

Wot a crok of shit when buying spare rims you buy2nd hand of ebat etc can get a set for any bike landed in nz 4 a grand.
There is way too much to answer in this post BUT I will make one point....check out the list price for standard rims from Kawasaki (as I know this brand) and then tell me the CARROZZERIA rims are too expensive! I would hazzard a guess that many stock rims are MORE EXPENSIVE than the racers deal my main sponsor is prepared to do. In fact Choppa has already come out and said it is a better option for him to buy CARROZZERIA wheels than stock. I can't talk for other wheel manufacturers but I know Rodd has put a fair margin on the wheels and he is here for the fun of it...not to make massive profits. He is a person we should be encouraging to participate in this sport through product involvement.

Also, aftermarket wheels may not be hign on your priority list but they certainly are on mine (for obvious reasons) but I think in the 'open' classes people should be allowed to choose where they spend there budget.

[Mental Trousers]

Since when was racing a bike in the classes that one would buy aftermarket rims supposed to be cheap,its not like anybody would need to buy a new set every season there as strong as hell.Not having a crack MT but staying competitive costs i would have thought and considering the difference made by the rims surely justified.

Staying competitive in any class is expensive. But without lightweight wheels the bar isn't anywhere near as high.


So would you not have spare wheels?

If you went with lightweight wheels you'd have to have a couple of sets. Mainly cos you have to change your suspension to suit the lower sprung weight so you couldn't really use standard wheels for spares. You can't really mix lightweight wheels with standard ones without ballsing up your suspension setup.

[Biggles08]

If you went with lightweight wheels you'd have to have a couple of sets. Mainly cos you have to change your suspension to suit the lower sprung weight so you couldn't really use standard wheels for spares. You can't really mix lightweight wheels with standard ones without ballsing up your suspension setup.

Bullshit....sorry MT but you don't know what your talking about here as I have been doing EXACTLY that for last years racing. While you could 'dial in' some more advantages by changing your suspension setup, it is not prohibitive to interchange from standard to lighter weight wheels.

sorry for being blunt but I have had 3 wines now...heeheee

[gixerracer]

Well that is the dumbest thing you have said so far and that list is getting longer by the second biggles of course you need to make pretty big changes maybe not at your speed but we are not all that slow sorry:shit:
Bullshit....sorry MT but you don't know what your talking about here as I have been doing EXACTLY that for last years racing. While you could 'dial in' some more advantages by changing your suspension setup, it is not prohibitive to interchange from standard to lighter weight wheels.

sorry for being blunt but I have had 3 wines now...heeheee

[Biggles08]

Wot a crok of shit when buying spare rims you buy2nd hand of ebat etc can get a set for any bike landed in nz 4 a grand.

You are 100% correct my sand dwelling friend BUT someone had to buy those rims brand new at some stage...lets see what happens in a couple of years IF this rule goes ahead...I think you may find a few second hand CARROZZERIA rims available on tardme.

Besides, ask Robert Taylor about people buying second hand (or brand new for that matter) products off ebay and comparing them to NZ based importers...its not a fair comparison as My sponsor needs to charge GST etc and cannot legally put "Gift" on the import papers. apples for apples

[Biggles08]

Well that is the dumbest thing you have said so far biggles of course you need to make pretty big changes maybe not at you speed but we are not all that slow sorry:shit:
Its a simple case of lighter wheels (unsprung weight) makes your suspension work more effectively. And I disagree...I have said far dumber things in the past!

[Mental Trousers]

Bullshit....sorry MT but you don't know what your talking about here as I have been doing EXACTLY that for last years racing. While you could 'dial in' some more advantages by changing your suspension setup, it is not prohibitive to interchange from standard to lighter weight wheels.

sorry for being blunt but I have had 3 wines now...heeheee

All good man. At least you're not like me when I've had a few, ie start banning people or putting them in Pink Hell for a laugh :niceone:

Advice I've had is contrary to your experience. Until I try it I'm not really qualified to say. For now I'll have to go with the best advice and say you're either mad or hard.

[Biggles08]

All good man. At least you're not like me when I've had a few, ie start banning people or putting them in Pink Hell for a laugh :niceone:

Advice I've had is contrary to your experience. Until I try it I'm not really qualified to say. For now I'll have to go with the best advice and say you're either mad or hard.
four red wines now (shhhhhh don't tell Robert Taylor)....does that make me hard?:wari:

I would say you need to try em to understand em!

[gixerracer]

You are 100% correct my sand dwelling friend BUT someone had to buy those rims brand new at some stage...lets see what happens in a couple of years IF this rule goes ahead...I think you may find a few second hand CARROZZERIA rims available on tardme.

Besides, ask Robert Taylor about people buying second hand (or brand new for that matter) products off ebay and comparing them to NZ based importers...its not a fair comparison as My sponsor needs to charge GST etc and cannot legally put "Gift" on the import papers. apples for apples

Thats his problem fact is we can buy stuff from the net for fuck all and this rule change is so stupid that I suggest we all as riders in the class make a stand and none of us use them to make it fair for the guy's trying to chase us:yes:

[Kickaha]

Thats his problem fact is we can buy stuff from the net for fuck all and this rule change is so stupid that I suggest we all as riders in the class make a stand and none of us use them to make it fair for the guy's trying to chase us:yes:

It's not hard to catch someone when they're off the track playing in a sandtrap :shifty:

[Biggles08]

It's not hard to catch someone when they're off the track playing in a sandtrap :shifty:
HAAAAAAHAAAAAA....fuckin...HAAAAAAHAAAAA.....oh shit I just shit myself!:clap:

[CHOPPA]

Staying competitive in any class is expensive. But without lightweight wheels the bar isn't anywhere near as high.



If you went with lightweight wheels you'd have to have a couple of sets. Mainly cos you have to change your suspension to suit the lower sprung weight so you couldn't really use standard wheels for spares. You can't really mix lightweight wheels with standard ones without ballsing up your suspension setup.

Na ill just use the standard set for wet, have to change the bike set up for wet anyway.

[Biggles08]

Na ill just use the standard set for wet, have to change the bike set up for wet anyway.
Well that's the dumbest thing I've heard you say so far......ummmm.....shit, lost it!

[CHOPPA]

Thats his problem fact is we can buy stuff from the net for fuck all and this rule change is so stupid that I suggest we all as riders in the class make a stand and none of us use them to make it fair for the guy's trying to chase us:yes:

I think the top 5 from each class last year should take a stand and let the rest of us run what we brung so we can get a sniff....

[CHOPPA]

Superbike rules are out! Seems we can NOT use aftermarket wheels, no aftermarket triple clamps, no Traction Control unless its standard id say.

We can use diff pistons which is interesting

[Biggles08]

Superbike rules are out! Seems we can NOT use aftermarket wheels, no aftermarket triple clamps, no Traction Control unless its standard id say.

We can use diff pistons which is interesting
mmmmm....well this is interesting news. Not sure I understand the about face from MNZ on this matter...It doesn't mention wheels at all in the rules.:mellow:

[98tls]

mmmmm....well this is interesting news. Not sure I understand the about face from MNZ on this matter...It doesn't mention wheels at all in the rules.:mellow:

No matter what happens fella its all been good publicity for the rims.:yes:

[suzuki21]

You 'racers' that think stock suspension can become 'dangerous' when it gets hot are soft in the head. Bit like saying we should shorten races in case the tyre gets too hot and become dangerous!!!

It's a fact of life/racing. Ride accordingly.

I agree, I would rather race a bike in the dry with a standard shock than a kitted bike in the pissing rain. What is deemed "safer"?

[gixerracer]

mmmmm....well this is interesting news. Not sure I understand the about face from MNZ on this matter...It doesn't mention wheels at all in the rules.:mellow:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
MNZ never wanted the wheels it was the brain trust idea and celarly the distrbutors and MNZ said F Off

[suzuki21]

Id have to question if the allowance for rear links is because of the 09 R1 link( a model with a very progressive link ratio ) In which case you cannnot blame them for pushing that but many will question conflict of interest if a Yamaha team is resurrected.
Maybe, but there was a KCT "sponsored" superbike near the front last year with non standard links fitted, at least it would be legal now. And it is pretty obvious what you are trying to get at - but if the people you are obviously digging at have no interest in contesting the superbike class this season why would a rule that dosn't concern them be a conflict of interest?

[scott411]

mmmmm....well this is interesting news. Not sure I understand the about face from MNZ on this matter...It doesn't mention wheels at all in the rules.:mellow:

can you explain to me how this is an about face, you heard a rumour about a rule that might be changed, and when the rules were annouced the rumour was wrong,

where is the about face???

seems to be you just got wrong information?

[gixerracer]

Maybe, but there was a KCT "sponsored" superbike near the front last year with non standard links fitted, at least it would be legal now. And it is pretty obvious what you are trying to get at - but if the people you are obviously digging at have no interest in contesting the superbike class this season why would a rule that dosn't concern them be a conflict of interest?

If you are talking bout my honda steve you are wrong AGAIN we changed the Dog bone thingy which was allowed never touched the link:shifty:

[cowpoos]

This is straight off the CARROZZERIA website FYI:

Carrozzeria Forged Rims are 20–40% lighter than stock, depending on model. Reducing weight on a motorcycle will always make it accelerate, corner and brake better, but some weight reductions are much more valuable then others. Motorcycle weight can be classified in two ways; sprung or unsprung and rotating or non-rotating. Wheel weight is both rotating and unsprung, which as you will read is the most significant weight to remove.

Sprung weight is everything that suspension holds up, unsprung weight is the wheel, sprocket, caliper, disks, axle and a percentage of the shock and swing arm. Unsprung weight is the nemesis of the suspension in the war to maintain tire contact with the tarmac. The less unsprung weight the more effectively the suspension and ultimately the tires can do their jobs. To explain this lets pretend you had a job in which you had to raise and lower a hammer as moving obstacles came by on some sort of moving conveyor belt. First you had a hammer with a 1 pound head. As the conveyor belt moved faster at some point it would become impossible to move quickly enough and the hammer would be hit be an obstacle. If you used a hammer with a ½ pound head you would be able to negotiate the moving obstacles at a greater speed. Now imagine the hammerhead is the wheel, your wrist is the suspension system and the moving conveyor with obstacles is the bumpy tarmac. This is why most cars have independent suspensions. Reducing unsprung weight will improve the traction especially in bumpy corners.
Rotating weight on a motorcycle counts twice every time you accelerate or brake. The reason for this is the engine must increase both the wheels’ linear velocity as well as their rotational velocity. It is a little more complicated in reality, but each pound you remove from the wheels is equal to approximately 2 or more pounds removed from the chassis. Reducing the weight of you wheels will allow your bike to not only accelerate faster, but brake better as well.

An additional benefit to reducing rotating weight it the reduction in gyro effect of the wheels. The easiest way to understand this is to conduct an experiment at home. Get the front wheel off your bicycle. Hold the axle with your hands and have a partner spin the wheel at a moderate speed. As the wheel spins pretend you are the forks and “turn” the wheel. You now have a feel for gyroscopic forces. Now imagine what a motorcycle wheel with much greater weight and speed goes through when you attempt to change directions quickly in a in a series of turns.

Your seriously barking up the wrong tree mate....a set of wheels are not going to make you fast enough to run with the front guys....listening to them might!!!

[CHOPPA]

If you are talking bout my honda steve you are wrong AGAIN we changed the Dog bone thingy which was allowed never touched the link:shifty:

Dont think you were aloud to change that either? Prop not aloud those hi comp pistons in my bike either but no drama.

Yamahas apparently need the link changed

[CHOPPA]

can you explain to me how this is an about face, you heard a rumour about a rule that might be changed, and when the rules were annouced the rumour was wrong,

where is the about face???

seems to be you just got wrong information?

There was a proposed set of rules out which allowed them but it was squashed about an hour ago

[snapoff]

Maybe, but there was a KCT "sponsored" superbike near the front last year with non standard links fitted, at least it would be legal now. And it is pretty obvious what you are trying to get at - but if the people you are obviously digging at have no interest in contesting the superbike class this season why would a rule that dosn't concern them be a conflict of interest?

Soooo meny people sooo full of shit , I think you ment CKT ,nothing wrong with there bikes

[Biggles08]

can you explain to me how this is an about face, you heard a rumour about a rule that might be changed, and when the rules were annouced the rumour was wrong,

where is the about face???

seems to be you just got wrong information?
Did you not get a copy of the proposed rules??? In those they were allowed...now in the final rules they are not mentioned....about face right there. :innocent:

[Biggles08]

Your seriously barking up the wrong tree mate....a set of wheels are not going to make you fast enough to run with the front guys....listening to them might!!!
What the fuck is your point Cowpoos?

[onearmedbandit]

Now that is all settled, maybe they could offer some sharp deals to road riders. :yes:

But not me, I'm too broke.

[gixerracer]

Your seriously barking up the wrong tree mate....a set of wheels are not going to make you fast enough to run with the front guys....listening to them might!!!

I think a nail just got hit on the head

[gixerracer]

What the fuck is your point Cowpoos?

Pretty obvious I thought

[gixerracer]

Dont think you were aloud to change that either? Prop not aloud those hi comp pistons in my bike either but no drama.

Yamahas apparently need the link changed

Aha you should have read the rules grasshopper we in fact were allowed as long as the linkage wasnt changed which it wasnt

[gixerracer]

There was a proposed set of rules out which allowed them but it was squashed about an hour ago

The proposed rules are not from MNZ as such put the said brain trust then they submit to the dealers association and MNZ for them to debate.
Outcome is pretty clear, Paul Stewart and team had a clear direction to be Superstock as the core class within the mext couple of years would have been pretty much the old 600 rules applied to the 1000 which would have been good but then other people come up with these RANDOM ideas

[Biggles08]

I think a nail just got hit on the head
So Lighter wheels don't improve your bikes handling and performance Craig?

Not sure exactly where I said they would make me 'run with the front guys' but I guess we can read what we want to on KB eh?

[Biggles08]

The proposed rules are not from MNZ as such put the said brain trust then they submit to the dealers association and MNZ for them to debate.

How does one go about being part of the "Dealers Association?" I'm thinking it may have been a good idea for CARROZZERIA to have been part of those debates....had we known.:mellow:

[Robert Taylor]

I agree, I would rather race a bike in the dry with a standard shock than a kitted bike in the pissing rain. What is deemed "safer"?

Better still run a quality aftermarket shock in the wet with valving and springing set for those conditions

[Robert Taylor]

Maybe, but there was a KCT "sponsored" superbike near the front last year with non standard links fitted, at least it would be legal now. And it is pretty obvious what you are trying to get at - but if the people you are obviously digging at have no interest in contesting the superbike class this season why would a rule that dosn't concern them be a conflict of interest?

CKT you muppet. Sponsored no, service contract yes. Shorter pullrod only yes, TOTALLY LEGAL as per MNZ rules yes. Read the rulebook! We briefly ran a Yosh link in one of the Suzukis at Tri Series ( not subject to MNZ Superbike rules ) and the rider liked the stock link better

Potential conflict of interest and the tone of what I said was not in any way combative. You need to understand the Queens Engrish a little better!

[Robert Taylor]

So Lighter wheels don't improve your bikes handling and performance Craig?

Not sure exactly where I said they would make me 'run with the front guys' but I guess we can read what we want to on KB eh?

No doubt that they do but you miss the point, RACERS IN NZ CANNOT AFFORD THAT SUBSTANTIAL EXTRA EXPENDITURE. No matter how you package it.
I changed a spring for you foc through the winter series last year and it was doubtful that you would have had the budget to buy it ( and I hadnt even sold you the shock and it was also a brand I dont sell ) So unless you have won lotto would you be running at least one maybe 2 sets of lightweight wheels if they werent sponsored to you?

[gixerracer]

How does one go about being part of the "Dealers Association?" I'm thinking it may have been a good idea for CARROZZERIA to have been part of those debates....had we known.:mellow:

The bike distributors ya putz

[Drew]

Well, for once I read an entire thread, only to find the pertinent information in the last page.

Back to the usual method of skipping straight to the last page methinks.

[Biggles08]

No doubt that they do but you miss the point, RACERS IN NZ CANNOT AFFORD THAT SUBSTANTIAL EXTRA EXPENDITURE. No matter how you package it.
I changed a spring for you foc through the winter series last year and it was doubtful that you would have had the budget to buy it ( and I hadnt even sold you the shock and it was also a brand I dont sell ) So unless you have won lotto would you be running at least one maybe 2 sets of lightweight wheels if they werent sponsored to you?

No Robert, that comment was with regards to Cowpoos inaccurately making assumptions about my thoughts on my ability as a racer...and Craig said he "hit the nail on the head" even though it had nothing to do with the point of my original post (the quote from the CARROZZERIA website).

Also, regarding your argument about costs of these wheels, as Choppa has already said THEY ARE LESS EXPENSIVE THAN OEM IN MOST CASES! So how does that make them 'too expensive for most racers?' I realize most purchase 2nd hand from ebay but how does that help our domestic competition? If these wheels were allowed to be used and purchased at a lesser price than OEM brand new, shortly the market would be afloat with people selling these wheels 2nd hand to others and we would in effect give people an alternative to ebay!

I would be running these wheels now that I know the difference they make...they would be high on my priority of 'things to get' regardless of if I was sponsored or not. You know the technical side of how much difference they make to a bikes performance and I struggle to understand why there seems to be such an apparent movement against allowing them should one wish to use them.

When you changed my spring out of my PENSKE you made a massive difference to how the bike felt...it opened my eyes to the wonders of suspension tuning...but you are right, I am yet to win Lotto and I like most others need to be careful where I spend my $$$...This is why I'm planning to run Stock this year...but like I keep saying...open class should be able to choose where to spend their performance upgrades...especially with such critical issue as unsprung weight.

[Rcktfsh]

If you are talking bout my honda steve you are wrong AGAIN we changed the Dog bone thingy which was allowed never touched the link:shifty:

Can't of been you he mentioned a front running bike.:third:

[Drew]

Also, regarding your argument about costs of these wheels, as Choppa has already said THEY ARE LESS EXPENSIVE THAN OEM IN MOST CASES! So how does that make them 'too expensive for most racers?' I realize most purchase 2nd hand from ebay but how does that help our domestic competition? If these wheels were allowed to be used and purchased at a lesser price than OEM brand new, shortly the market would be afloat with people selling these wheels 2nd hand to others and we would in effect give people an alternative to ebay!

So you're suggesting, that 12 people running light wheels purchased in New Zealand is gonna completely change the aftermarket parts industry here?

You need to be a bit more realistic Marcus. Very few people can afford these wheels, that 3 or 4 grand would be MUCH better spent on tyres in 80% of the NZ racers budget.

I've ridden on standard and merchasini (not your brand I know, but just as good I'd think) wheels in back to back sessions, and there is a massive difference. But the GEOMETRY of the bike needs to be changed to fully utilise the gains possible, so chucking a set of standard wheels back on for the wet races is gonna be more dangerous unless you can get Robert to run from garage to garage. And as good a bloke as he is, he'll tell you he detests that kind of malarky.

[Shaun]

Thank God common sense kicked in, and these crazy exspensive parts are NOT allowed.

[Biggles08]

Thank God common sense kicked in, and these crazy exspensive parts are NOT allowed.
Yeah...thank goodness those who need spare rims have to buy OEM now....and save...oh yes, NOTHING!

and again....

CARROZZERIA rims from the authorized NZ importer (not parallel imported) are often LESS EXPENSIVE than OEM rims....how is that saving money Shaun????:blink:

[Shaun]

Yeah...thank goodness those who need spare rims have to buy OEM now....and save...oh yes, NOTHING!

and again....

CARROZZERIA rims from the authorized NZ importer (not parallel imported) are often LESS EXPENSIVE than OEM rims....how is that saving money Shaun????:blink:



As I told you in a PM yesterday, I have just sold 3 sets of wheels with discs for $1200-00 a set, your offer for a set of lightweight wheels, ( Which I will keep to myself as you requested) was O so close to my purchase price for 3 sets of wheels Marcus.

[Biggles08]

So you're suggesting, that 12 people running light wheels purchased in New Zealand is gonna completely change the aftermarket parts industry here?

You need to be a bit more realistic Marcus. Very few people can afford these wheels, that 3 or 4 grand would be MUCH better spent on tyres in 80% of the NZ racers budget.

I've ridden on standard and merchasini (not your brand I know, but just as good I'd think) wheels in back to back sessions, and there is a massive difference. But the GEOMETRY of the bike needs to be changed to fully utilise the gains possible, so chucking a set of standard wheels back on for the wet races is gonna be more dangerous unless you can get Robert to run from garage to garage. And as good a bloke as he is, he'll tell you he detests that kind of malarky.

Or you could learn the changes required yourself and make the tweaks if you need too.

I understand that if you want to get the absolute best from your lighter rims you need to tune them in BUT it is still not dangerous interchanging between heavy and lightened wheels and making no changes to your setup....in fact it is still an advantage to put lighter weight wheels on as whatever your suspension settings are, it makes it easier for the springy stuff to do their job better...

You have said yourself it makes a HUGE difference to the way the bike performs...but I will add to this that this is also the case no matter what your suspension is....and this is my whole point I'm trying to put across...the wheels are not a unnecessary accessory but are in themselves a critical part of your motorcycles handling performance....can we all agree on this????

[Biggles08]

As I told you in a PM yesterday, I have just sold 3 sets of wheels with discs for $1200-00 a set, your offer for a set of lightweight wheels, ( Which I will keep to myself as you requested) was O so close to my purchase price for 3 sets of wheels Marcus.
Brand new wheels huh? From the Manufacturer huh? Come on Shaun, as I said in an earlier post...apples for apples.

[gixerracer]

Brand new wheels huh? From the Manufacturer huh? Come on Shaun, as I said in an earlier post...apples for apples.

Dude you need to go outside and get some sun your starting to make a dick of you and your sponsor, buy now everyone know's his brand name just in an annoying way:shit:

[Shaun]

Brand new wheels huh? From the Manufacturer huh? Come on Shaun, as I said in an earlier post...apples for apples.


Read Craigs post recent on here

Apples for Apples Fuckin Bolocks, you are just trying to sell some product of Your sponsors, and good on ya, but I am here for the Riders, Not the Importers etc, so My wheel option with Discs pisses all over what you had suggested in your PM to me as a good price.

In fact, I can bring those wheels in you mention from a dealer I have an account with in th USA for less than your quote to me yesterday via PM

[driftn]

In fact, I can bring those wheels in you mention from a dealer I have an account with in th USA for less than your quote to me yesterday via PM


BOOM SHAKALAKA...... There it is. Kick a man while he is down eh Shaun.
"i like" (said with a bad Borat accent)

[CHOPPA]

I think your gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Marcus. Put the cost issue aside and no one will argue that lighter wheels are not better then standard.

They will work out cheaper for me but for most people that have many s/h sets available to buy cheap then they will be an extra cost and for people that already have spare wheels they will have to fork out more money or has a disadvantage so I can understand Shaun and Craigs point and if it were last year I would have been doing everything to stop it going through as well.

99% of the guys on here dont race at the nationals so this ruling is not going to effect them. If I were just a club racer and I was looking at purchasing a new set of spare wheels then it would be an absolute no brainer to buy the Carrozzeria wheels as they would be the same price as a set of new OEM wheels but they would get all the benefits of the light wheels and also have better resale on the wheels or there bike when they sell it.

[cowpoos]

Read Craigs post recent on here

Apples for Apples Fuckin Bolocks, you are just trying to sell some product of Your sponsors, and good on ya, but I am here for the Riders, Not the Importers etc, so My wheel option with Discs pisses all over what you had suggested in your PM to me as a good price.

In fact, I can bring those wheels in you mention from a dealer I have an account with in th USA for less than your quote to me yesterday via PM

how much does a tyre changing machine cost shaun?

[Shaun]

how much does a tyre changing machine cost shaun?



The One I had cost me $3995-00 Whole sale, I have SOLD it now though

[Biggles08]

Apples for Apples Fuckin Bolocks, you are just trying to sell some product of Your sponsors, and good on ya, but I am here for the Riders, Not the Importers etc,

Sure you are Shaun! Your the very same person that went to my MAIN SPONSOR (the wheels man) at the prize giving in Ruapuna asking what his involvement was in the racing scene. He proceded to tell you he was supporting me down to the Nationals and beyond. Smelling money you said to him right then...and I quote "Oh yes I know Marcus, hes not fast....he'll never be fast!" True or not what a thing to say to a riders MAIN SPONSOR at the very first round of my first ever Nationals attempt! You were really there for me then huh?

I guess you didn't realize I had a great relationship with my sponsor because I have worked so hard for them that he wasn't going to come and tell me what you said!

This conversation is over and I'm happy to have nothing further to say to you about this matter....I'm out.

[scracha]

This conversation is over and I'm happy to have nothing further to say to you about this matter. Go crawl off like a money rodent that you are and fuck someone elses life up...I'm out

Oh that's fuckin gold Marcus.

Hey, if it's any consolation I tell everyone you're slow and shit and I hope you do the same for me :innocent:

Why are short men always so angry?

[cowpoos]

The One I had cost me $3995-00 Whole sale, I have SOLD it now though

Wonder if thats cheaper than a set of OEM wheels for Sloan?

[Deano]

Custard...........as in what this thread has turned in to.
:yes:

[Shaun]

Fuck off you are Shaun! Your the very same person that went to my MAIN SPONSOR (the wheels man) at the prize giving in Ruapuna asking what his involvement was in the racing scene. He proceded to tell you he was supporting me down to the Nationals and beyond. Smelling money you said to him right then...and I quote "Oh yes I know Marcus, hes not fast....he'll never be fast!" True or not what a thing to say to a riders MAIN SPONSOR at the very first round of my first ever Nationals attempt! You were really there for me then huh? What a fucking wanker you are!

What? You didn't Realize I had a great relationship with my sponsor because I have worked so hard for them that he wasn't going to come and tell me what you said! Idiot!!!

This conversation is over and I'm happy to have nothing further to say to you about this matter. Go crawl off like a money rodent that you are and fuck someone elses life up...I'm out




Hahahaa, I did say you were very slow, and you always will be:sunny:


O, and very profesional attitude for a man who CLAIMS on this site,to be one of the best sales man in New Zealand, I will always do buisness with you buddy

Smelt money, Probally, I hate seeing it being wasted

I will leave the ABUSE to you and the PM system Marcus

[Shaun]

Wonder if thats cheaper than a set of OEM wheels for Sloan?




ummmmm, you know I am thick poos, where is this heading?

[Biggles08]

I will leave the ABUSE to you and the PM system Marcus

There was no abuse...just facts.

[Shaun]

There was no abuse...just facts.



Facts? So saying GET FUCKED and so on, is NOT abuse? WOW, your eeeengrish is even better than mine

PS, have you actually secured a new sales man job yet?

Thanks for playing biggles:shifty:

[gixerracer]

There was no abuse...just facts.

I think you spent a bit long in the sun:jerry:

[gixerracer]

Facts? So saying GET FUCKED and so on, is NOT abuse? WOW, your eeeengrish is even better than mine

PS, have you actually secured a new sales man job yet?

Thanks for playing biggles:shifty:

Marcus Shaun has allways been a cunt you need thicker skin if you are going to survive may be should stay in the sun a bit longer

[Shaun]

Marcus Shaun has allways been a "Kunt"you need thicker skin if you are going to survive may be should stay in the sun a bit longer


There Fixed it for ya Craig

[Robert Taylor]

Marcus Shaun has allways been a cunt you need thicker skin if you are going to survive may be should stay in the sun a bit longer

Yes he has but when it comes down tio tin tacks a good one. Even though like you Craig he is a left wing commie. ( But Im prepared to overlook that because you are both good bastards, deep down )
In an ideal world it would be nice to have everyone on lightweight wheels and aftermarket high quality forks. But it aint going to happen because the market at large cannot afford it. Reality check 101.

[Biggles08]

Yes he has but when it comes down tio tin tacks a good one.
Did you read what he said to my sponsor down south Robert....that's not good in anyone's books...and contre to his claims to have 'the riders good' in mind. Just a selfish man scabbing off other peoples hard work.

[Biggles08]

Marcus Shaun has allways been a cunt you need thicker skin if you are going to survive may be should stay in the sun a bit longer
Oh don't you worry...my skin is pretty thick...a bit like Shaun in some sort of intellectual way...opps...that may have been abuse meant for PM :blink:

[Shaun]

Did you read what he said to my sponsor down south Robert....that's not good in anyone's books...and contre to his claims to have 'the riders good' in mind. Just a selfish man scabbing off other peoples hard work.



Typing is FREE dude. we will see in a few years how many riders you have spent your time and money on! Ask your team mate Nick for a start, and then the LIST goes on.


So, is it wrong to tell the TRUTH Marcus?


PS thanks again for playing, you are only proving what most on here know already, I am a wanker, and you are a salesman

O that;s write, you are a SALESMAN " Who is scabbing of the manufactures hard work. Go figure buddy

[Bren_chch]

Did you read what he said to my sponsor down south Robert....that's not good in anyone's books!

Man thats rough!!!

[Robert Taylor]

Did you read what he said to my sponsor down south Robert....that's not good in anyone's books...and contre to his claims to have 'the riders good' in mind. Just a selfish man scabbing off other peoples hard work.

Irrelevant re Shaun but dont get me started on a few other personalities with high profile that have grabbed what they can from the highest bidders. Shaun has been around a LONG time and yes he does have a few boils that need lancing. But his heart is in the right place and he has helped out a lot of people, in part but not solely because of recognition of the help that he has had. He would be much better off financially if he had decided to actually profit from the many people he has helped. ( As would I )
It does pay to have a very good recollection of history and to have been around long enough to do so, some of us have been around a long time and have seen a few people around that have used the goodwill of others. Ask Billy for starters....
Again I have no problem with the technical merits of lightweight aftermarket wheels but the realities of the market means its largely a non starter, just like aftermarket forks. Accept it.

[CHOPPA]

Dont hold back guys tell us whats really on your mind! :2guns:hahaha

[Shaun]

Dont hold back guys tell us whats really on your mind! :2guns:hahaha



Would you like me to get you a set of OEM wheels out of my USA contacts mate?

[Rcktfsh]

Yes he has but when it comes down tio tin tacks a good one. Even though like you Craig he is a left wing commie. .

Interesting that so many of your more entertaing ones are.

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting that so many of your more entertaing ones are.

Life is never dull. Commies are fast because they are always evading user pays.....

[Drew]

Or you could learn the changes required yourself and make the tweaks if you need too.

I understand that if you want to get the absolute best from your lighter rims you need to tune them in BUT it is still not dangerous interchanging between heavy and lightened wheels and making no changes to your setup....in fact it is still an advantage to put lighter weight wheels on as whatever your suspension settings are, it makes it easier for the springy stuff to do their job better...

You have said yourself it makes a HUGE difference to the way the bike performs...but I will add to this that this is also the case no matter what your suspension is....and this is my whole point I'm trying to put across...the wheels are not a unnecessary accessory but are in themselves a critical part of your motorcycles handling performance....can we all agree on this????

The thread has turned into a bit of a shit fight for you Marcus, but I wanna make just one post about the wheels before it gets put in PD.

I'm sure the light wheels make a real big difference to your lap times, but set the bike up to get down to 1m10s around Manfield and swap to the heavy wheels when it starts raining, and see how much fun you have trying to get the bike to tip in.

Most racers have aspirations of running at the front man, set up is a massive part of that. But every single day requires a different set up on the track, the changes needing made are not the same between wheels from day to day. Do you think Robert is so good at his job because he can remember the settings for all bikes? No, he's so good because he can dream up new settings every time he comes into your garage depending on the day.

[Deano]

Do you think Robert is so good at his job because he can remember the settings for all bikes?

It damn near seems like it sometimes.....

[sidecar bob]

Someone remarked earlier that if one buys light wheels, all will need too to compete. While they were at it they should have banned tyre warmers for the same reason, it would have returned the peace & quiet to the pits again from all the genertators & we would be able to hear all you bastards arguing.
Frankly, i think banning aftermarket wheels for cost reasons without banning aftermarket suspension for the same reason is rather odd.

[sidecar bob]

My bike can be bent and it doesnt really effect my lap times, does make it a bit of a challenge to ride though

I know what you mean, my bike is completely assymetrical & it handles fine. Some people need to just HTFU.

[White trash]

Life is never dull. Commies are fast because they are always evading user pays.....

My Commy's fast because it's got a dirty great 5.7L V8 up it.

[Biggles08]

The thread has turned into a bit of a shit fight for you Marcus, but I wanna make just one post about the wheels before it gets put in PD.

I'm sure the light wheels make a real big difference to your lap times, but set the bike up to get down to 1m10s around Manfield and swap to the heavy wheels when it starts raining, and see how much fun you have trying to get the bike to tip in.

Most racers have aspirations of running at the front man, set up is a massive part of that. But every single day requires a different set up on the track, the changes needing made are not the same between wheels from day to day. Do you think Robert is so good at his job because he can remember the settings for all bikes? No, he's so good because he can dream up new settings every time he comes into your garage depending on the day.

I agree about the suspension setup changes Drew; but changing between weighted wheels is not a safety issue....hardly. Its just as dangerous as going out in qualifying in the dry pushing 1.11's around Manfeild (for me that is :yes:) and then race comes along and you have to slow down for the conditions....you simply adjust how you ride it.

I'm sure Robert will agree that lightening the wheels (or unsprung weight to be precise) make the suspension able to do its job more effectively...mainly, there are other reasons too but essentially the weight of your unsprung weight and reducing it is only going to make your bike handle better in EVERY occasion...and if you can't adjust to heavier wheels in the rain then I would suggest you have bigger problems to tackle as the track is wet and you need to make some smart adjustments if you don't want to be grazing with the cows.:shifty:

[Biggles08]

...and if it were last year I would have been doing everything to stop it going through as well.

And that is GOLD Choppa! There are so many agendas in the politics of racing and I would like to break out of the bullshit if possible!

I've never been one to hide behind anyone else or make a pseudo alias to push my agenda. Everyone knows who I am and what I stand for. I have never pretended to not be associated with CARROZZERIA wheels or any other issue I go in to bat for. I is what I is! It makes me an easy target as I have not been in this racing scene for very long but I make my opinions known. Although, I would like to say I'm no spring chicken and have been around to have seen this type of smokescreen in other areas before.

Shaun is a great example of what I am refering to and I have called out his BULLSHIT in this thread because thats simply what it is. I can gaurantee if it was in his PERSONAL interest to have lighter wheels he would be backing them 100%. So by me highlighting the benefits of why lightened wheels help out who ever cares to purchase them, at a reasonable price...who has really got the riders best interest in mind I ask?

Somehow it appears that being involved in sales is supposed to be a bad thing according to Shaun...I love selling products that are high quality and worth every cent because I feel by showing them the advantages they may not have considered before I am adding value for them.

Regardless of what people think is "too expensive" it is a fact that by reducing your unsprung weight is a far bigger issue than say buying nice rearsets for $800-$1000. Why not put a cap on these products? Because people should be able to choose where they want to invest their $$$ on what they deem to have the best return. Wheels should be allowed to be looked at for this reason alone. Not everyone will place high importance on getting them, but I would as I know how good they make my bike handle.

[cowpoos]

Wonder if thats cheaper than a set of OEM wheels for Sloan?


ummmmm, you know I am thick poos, where is this heading?

Well sloan was implying that wheel for his bike were expensive....tyre changing machine might be a good fast-ish option in stead of wheels??

[Drew]

I agree about the suspension setup changes Drew; but changing between weighted wheels is not a safety issue....hardly. Its just as dangerous as going out in qualifying in the dry pushing 1.11's around Manfeild (for me that is :yes:) and then race comes along and you have to slow down for the conditions....you simply adjust how you ride it.

I'm sure Robert will agree that lightening the wheels (or unsprung weight to be precise) make the suspension able to do its job more effectively...mainly, there are other reasons too but essentially the weight of your unsprung weight and reducing it is only going to make your bike handle better in EVERY occasion...and if you can't adjust to heavier wheels in the rain then I would suggest you have bigger problems to tackle as the track is wet and you need to make some smart adjustments if you don't want to be grazing with the cows.:shifty:You sure are doing well at looking straight past the point man.

The GEOMETRY changes required, to best utilise the reduced unsprung weight are quite substantial. I am not talking about the clickers, or even the valving at this point, I am referring to the steering angle, the swingarm pivot position, and swingarm angle. Those things are tricky, and really important to stability.

To run at the front (which is where "racers" want to be, rather than circulating for personal pleasure), it is the ONLY option to run the same wheels all the time. That said, only buying one spare set is silly, and quite possibly dangerous.

Ya get it that time, or shall I start drawing a picture?

[sidecar bob]

To run at the front (which is where "racers" want to be, rather than circulating for personal pleasure)

Herin lies the root of the problem. If your primary motivation for jumping on a racebike is not personal pleasure then you are missing the whole purpose of racing. Yep, winning is great, i have done it plenty, but if i didnt enjoy myself doing it i wouldnt bother.
I made the change to CMCRR (classic racing) a couple of years ago & discovered a bunch of has been fossils like myself, that were still getting a kick out of taking the chequred flag, even in last place & just love motorcycles & racing, without all the egos, agendas & commercial backgammon that drives most decisions in modern racing.

[Shaun]

Well sloan was implying that wheel for his bike were expensive....tyre changing machine might be a good fast-ish option in stead of wheels??



Understand your logic

[cowpoos]

Herin lies the root of the problem. If your primary motivation for jumping on a racebike is not personal pleasure then you are missing the whole purpose of racing. Yep, winning is great, i have done it plenty, but if i didnt enjoy myself doing it i wouldnt bother.
I made the change to CMCRR (classic racing) a couple of years ago & discovered a bunch of has been fossils like myself, that were still getting a kick out of taking the chequred flag, even in last place & just love motorcycles & racing, without all the egos, agendas & commercial backgammon that drives most decisions in modern racing.


To be fair everyone has different Goals and reasons for racing or riding Bikes.

[White trash]

And that is GOLD Choppa! There are so many agendas in the politics of racing and I would like to break out of the bullshit if possible!

I've never been one to hide behind anyone else or make a pseudo alias to push my agenda. Everyone knows who I am and what I stand for. I have never pretended to not be associated with CARROZZERIA wheels or any other issue I go in to bat for. I is what I is! It makes me an easy target as I have not been in this racing scene for very long but I make my opinions known. Although, I would like to say I'm no spring chicken and have been around to have seen this type of smokescreen in other areas before.

Shaun is a great example of what I am refering to and I have called out his BULLSHIT in this thread because thats simply what it is. I can gaurantee if it was in his PERSONAL interest to have lighter wheels he would be backing them 100%. So by me highlighting the benefits of why lightened wheels help out who ever cares to purchase them, at a reasonable price...who has really got the riders best interest in mind I ask?

Somehow it appears that being involved in sales is supposed to be a bad thing according to Shaun...I love selling products that are high quality and worth every cent because I feel by showing them the advantages they may not have considered before I am adding value for them.

Regardless of what people think is "too expensive" it is a fact that by reducing your unsprung weight is a far bigger issue than say buying nice rearsets for $800-$1000. Why not put a cap on these products? Because people should be able to choose where they want to invest their $$$ on what they deem to have the best return. Wheels should be allowed to be looked at for this reason alone. Not everyone will place high importance on getting them, but I would as I know how good they make my bike handle.

As perviously stated, I applaud your dedication to your sponsor but we are now flogging a seriously fucked up horse. The wheels aren't allowed under the rules. *Most* racers agree that it's a good decision. You obviously don't due to tie ins with people which is fine.

The thing you've got to be carefull about opinions and the like is that when you voice them too loudly and unwaveringly, people tend to think you're a bit of a dick and stop listening.

As an alternative opinion regarding Shaun to yours. About 4 years ago I got an out of the blue phone call at my job as a storeman from Mr Harris who I had previously had NOTHING to do with. At the request of a mutual friend of ours, he was bring his almost new GSX600 race bike up to Pukekohe for the weekend and wanted me to have a test on it. We got along well and Shaun continued to mentor me and drag his huge trailer all over the North Island, me racing his bike with the hope I could develop skills and we could attract sponsors. I wrecked his bike at Taupo after qualifying .03 of a second off Jays pole time in shit conditions. I know Shaun had a cunning plan ligned up that was tragically cut down by his massive IOM crash but ALL of this racing and travelling was done out of his own pocket and I probably cost him 3 grand in damages.

It took a chance to get a new rider into the sport and he got me hooked. Is that not for the good of the sport Marcus?

Incidentally, if I EVER go racing again I will ask Mr Harris VERY nicely if he would kindly look after my race bike and mentor my return. This is of course if he hasn't totally got the shits with racers calling him a "fucking wanker" and pissed off over to IOM to live where he's a little bit better respected.

[Drew]

Herin lies the root of the problem. If your primary motivation for jumping on a racebike is not personal pleasure then you are missing the whole purpose of racing. Yep, winning is great, i have done it plenty, but if i didnt enjoy myself doing it i wouldnt bother.
I made the change to CMCRR (classic racing) a couple of years ago & discovered a bunch of has been fossils like myself, that were still getting a kick out of taking the chequred flag, even in last place & just love motorcycles & racing, without all the egos, agendas & commercial backgammon that drives most decisions in modern racing.I didn't say I dont enjoy it if I dont win. I have won VERY few races, but it's a race! I still do it to try and win.

There was very little chance when I rode a superbike, but that didn't mean I would go out and take it easy. Robert was pulling the the shocks out of their bikes every race, he's bound by the human condition to get it wrong some time, and I might have been able to capitalise on it.

[Shaun]

As perviously stated, I applaud your dedication to your sponsor but we are now flogging a seriously fucked up horse. The wheels aren't allowed under the rules. *Most* racers agree that it's a good decision. You obviously don't due to tie ins with people which is fine.

The thing you've got to be carefull about opinions and the like is that when you voice them too loudly and unwaveringly, people tend to think you're a bit of a dick and stop listening.

As an alternative opinion regarding Shaun to yours. About 4 years ago I got an out of the blue phone call at my job as a storeman from Mr Harris who I had previously had NOTHING to do with. At the request of a mutual friend of ours, he was bring his almost new GSX600 race bike up to Pukekohe for the weekend and wanted me to have a test on it. We got along well and Shaun continued to mentor me and drag his huge trailer all over the North Island, me racing his bike with the hope I could develop skills and we could attract sponsors. I wrecked his bike at Taupo after qualifying .03 of a second off Jays pole time in shit conditions. I know Shaun had a cunning plan ligned up that was tragically cut down by his massive IOM crash but ALL of this racing and travelling was done out of his own pocket and I probably cost him 3 grand in damages.

It took a chance to get a new rider into the sport and he got me hooked. Is that not for the good of the sport Marcus?

Incidentally, if I EVER go racing again I will ask Mr Harris VERY nicely if he would kindly look after my race bike and mentor my return. This is of course if he hasn't totally got the shits with racers calling him a "fucking wanker" and pissed off over to IOM to live where he's a little bit better respected.



Thankyou MR Trash, You and or D Jones I will always help, after a few things that have gone on in the last few days, I will NOT be sponsoring a racer again, I have spent over $80-000 of my own money since 2005 helping NZ riders, and it is time to call that side of my life a day.


PS, my decision has nothing to do with the Bad mouthing of a person on here

[Drew]

PS, my decision has nothing to do with the Bad mouthing of a person on here

Would be funny if someone inclined to help a racer ever did have a browse through the racing section of this place. Sign writers would go broke and all the bikes would have no stickers on them at all.

[White trash]

Would be funny if someone inclined to help a racer ever did have a browse through the racing section of this place. Sign writers would go broke and all the bikes would have no stickers on them at all.

Dude. Did you know your profile shows you as female? I mean, you do ride like a fucken girl but I thought you at least had a smallish willy hiding somewhere.......

[sidecar bob]

As perviously stated, I applaud your dedication to your sponsor but we are now flogging a seriously fucked up horse. The wheels aren't allowed under the rules. *Most* racers agree that it's a good decision. You obviously don't due to tie ins with people which is fine.

The thing you've got to be carefull about opinions and the like is that when you voice them too loudly and unwaveringly, people tend to think you're a bit of a dick and stop listening.Another prominent poster in this thread has talked a lot of arse & made promises & statements that have never materialised, yet people still cling on to every word he says

As an alternative opinion regarding Shaun to yours. About 4 years ago I got an out of the blue phone call at my job as a storeman from Mr Harris who I had previously had NOTHING to do with. At the request of a mutual friend of ours, he was bring his almost new GSX600 race bike up to Pukekohe for the weekend and wanted me to have a test on it. We got along well and Shaun continued to mentor me and drag his huge trailer all over the North Island, me racing his bike with the hope I could develop skills and we could attract sponsors. I wrecked his bike at Taupo after qualifying .03 of a second off Jays pole time in shit conditions.clearly Jay was messing with your head & leading you into a mistake, which obviously worked a treat I know Shaun had a cunning plan ligned up that was tragically cut down by his massive IOM crash but ALL of this racing and travelling was done out of his own pocket and I probably cost him 3 grand in damages.

It took a chance to get a new rider into the sport and he got me hooked. Is that not for the good of the sport Marcus? better than telling someone's sponser that they will never be fast i suppose

Incidentally, if I EVER go racing again I will ask Mr Harris VERY nicely if he would kindly look after my race bike and mentor my return. This is of course if he hasn't totally got the shits with racers calling him a "fucking wanker"you say it as if the man has never called someone a fucking wanker and pissed off over to IOM to live where he's a little bit better respected.I wouldnt beg him to stay

..........

[White trash]

Another prominent poster in this thread has talked a lot of ares & made promises & statements that have never materialised, yet people still cling on to every word he says



No they don't. I've had more than my fair share of issues with Shaun as he has with me. I don't pretend to believe everything he says.


clearly Jay was messing with your head & leading you into a mistake, which obviously worked a treat


What makes you say that? Were you there talking to Jay about it on the day? Because I've enjoyed a number of beers with him since then and the topic usually strays to the hilarious look in my eyes as he tried to avoid running me over. Or perhaps the other 33 riders on the grid were also messing with my head by allowing me to out qualify them in my second race meeting ever.......


better than telling someone's sponser that they will never be fast i suppose


POssibly. But a couple of years ago I posted a thread complaining that a VERY prominent racer in the same class as me had just done that to my main sponsor and I was told by 90% of posters that that's racing and to take a HTFU pill. So which is it, acceptable or not because now I'm confused.


you say it as if the man has never called someone a fucking wanker .I wouldnt beg him to stay

No I don't. He's called me a fucking wanker before. Funnily enough I was being one. And not begging him to stay is your opinion and choice, welcome to it. I was simply pointing out to young Mr Biggles that people hold others in different regard to they themselves.

[Robert Taylor]

Someone remarked earlier that if one buys light wheels, all will need too to compete. While they were at it they should have banned tyre warmers for the same reason, it would have returned the peace & quiet to the pits again from all the genertators & we would be able to hear all you bastards arguing.
Frankly, i think banning aftermarket wheels for cost reasons without banning aftermarket suspension for the same reason is rather odd.

No its similiar mentality to other domestic racing classes around the world. Bikes at that level need better suspension first and foremost, be they heavily modified stock units or race thoroughbred aftermarket items that apart from a couple of very obvious benefits also have another very HUGE benefit. The ability to make setting changes ( external and internal ) with minimal fuss and very very quickly. Given that we have our own diversity of tracks thats an important factor .
So its a no brainer that good suspension is higher up the priority list than aftermarket wheels.
No one here is arguing the very real technical advantages of super lightweight wheels but it comes down to a line in the sand. Many racers struggle to afford the cost of a spare set of wheels as it is and as has been correctly pointed out ( without getting into other issues of purchasing offshore ad infinitum ) much of this stuff is purchased via e-bay or even borrowed etc.
Aftermarket wheels would have been a very significant cost elevation that even the distributor that most backs road racing was uneasy about. How do I know? Because I spoke to them about it Friday afternoon.
As I also stated in a prevoius post aftermarket forks were banned several seasons back and I totally accepted that without making a noise as even then I knew that the potential sales of these were a handful at best. Id love to sell a few sets of NZ$20K Ohlins forks ( just like you see fitted to the second level bikes in WSBK ) but it just aint going to happen.

[Drew]

Dude. Did you know your profile shows you as female? I mean, you do ride like a fucken girl but I thought you at least had a smallish willy hiding somewhere.......

Yeah, I think Shane changed it when he condemned me to the pink hell. Dunno how to change it back.

[Biggles08]

You sure are doing well at looking straight past the point man.

The GEOMETRY changes required, to best utilise the reduced unsprung weight are quite substantial. I am not talking about the clickers, or even the valving at this point, I am referring to the steering angle, the swingarm pivot position, and swingarm angle. Those things are tricky, and really important to stability.

To run at the front (which is where "racers" want to be, rather than circulating for personal pleasure), it is the ONLY option to run the same wheels all the time. That said, only buying one spare set is silly, and quite possibly dangerous.

Ya get it that time, or shall I start drawing a picture?

oooo...picture please!:shifty:

[sugilite]

I've always thought it is not really rocket science to work out what top level NZ racing needs. More riders on the grid. Thats not going to happen in this country with check book racing. It's the same old 3 to 5 riders at the top then the also rans, and I predict the list of also rans will drop more and more as they lose interest in spending 40+k to have their arses kicked. Admittedly, the top guys are there because they actually are the best riders. So naturally the money which =- hot bits will follow them. How many superbikes on the grid last season? 10?

With equipment parity, There are riders capable of keeping the fast guys in sight, they will then start to even challenge the established order given an even playing field. Make the bikes affordable and you will get more good riders moving up from the other classes too. I reckon 10 bikes on the grid looks pathetic.

A simple recipe I would have thought would be....
Slip on muffler (stock mufflers to expensive to crunch)
Power commander (to allow for muffler)
Rear shock and fork internals (standard shocks just wear tyres much faster, so false economy)
Sprockets, Brake pads, Brake lines
Slicks (they last longer)
Go racing, enjoy.

Who knows, the larger grids, and closer racing might even encourage a spectator to turn up :yes:

[Biggles08]

I was simply pointing out to young Mr Biggles ....

HA! I like hanging out with old fogy's like you WT...calling me young! sweet!!!

[Robert Taylor]

I didn't say I dont enjoy it if I dont win. I have won VERY few races, but it's a race! I still do it to try and win.

There was very little chance when I rode a superbike, but that didn't mean I would go out and take it easy. Robert was pulling the the shocks out of their bikes every race, he's bound by the human condition to get it wrong some time, and I might have been able to capitalise on it.

Its not actually getting it wrong Drew but detractors ( everyone has detractors ) capitalise on the visibility of me pulling shocks apart all the time. Truth is we are always searching for even better settings, sometimes we find it sometimes we dont.
The very top riders that we work for know that we dont mind very hard work. Last year we installed a shorter pullrod on the CBR1000s ( totally legal despite poorly researched allegations by another post ) and that in turn required a slightly different valving spec. And then we recieved new test pistons from Ohlins. And then we were the first domestic racing class in the world to race with NIX30s, recieiving pre-production cartridges. And then we had to start over with settings as the Euro settings didnt suit us. And so on, people often like to believe the worst and competitors ( that should know better) make a play on such perceptions.
And a word about Shaun, sure enough he has his character flaws ( like everyone ) but nobody can deny his passion and his enthusiasm where he has dived into his own pockets ( and more than people realise ) What is shameful is a handful of people that have abused his goodwill and I dont blame him for feeling aggrieved about that.

[sidecar bob]

I've always thought it is not really rocket science to work out what top level NZ racing needs. More riders on the grid. Thats not going to happen in this country with check book racing. It's the same old 3 to 5 riders at the top then the also rans, and I predict the list of also rans will drop more and more as they lose interest in spending 40+k to have their arses kicked. Admittedly, the top guys are there because they actually are the best riders. So naturally the money which =- hot bits will follow them. How many superbikes on the grid last season? 10?

With equipment parity, There are riders capable of keeping the fast guys in sight, they will then start to even challenge the established order given an even playing field. Make the bikes affordable and you will get more good riders moving up from the other classes too. I reckon 10 bikes on the grid looks pathetic.

A simple recipe I would have thought would be....
Slip on muffler (stock mufflers to expensive to crunch)
Power commander (to allow for muffler)
Rear shock and fork internals (standard shocks just wear tyres much faster, so false economy)
Sprockets, Brake pads, Brake lines
Slicks (they last longer)
Go racing, enjoy.

Who knows, the larger grids, and closer racing might even encourage a spectator to turn up :yes:

Take a lesson from sidecars before its too late for you guys too. Expensive bikes deplete the grid.
A full sidecar field last season probably cost the same as one five seasons ago, except that five seasons ago it was spread over thee times the number of machines worth an average of a third of the money each.

[Robert Taylor]

I've always thought it is not really rocket science to work out what top level NZ racing needs. More riders on the grid. Thats not going to happen in this country with check book racing. It's the same old 3 to 5 riders at the top then the also rans, and I predict the list of also rans will drop more and more as they lose interest in spending 40+k to have their arses kicked. Admittedly, the top guys are there because they actually are the best riders. So naturally the money which =- hot bits will follow them. How many superbikes on the grid last season? 10?

With equipment parity, There are riders capable of keeping the fast guys in sight, they will then start to even challenge the established order given an even playing field. Make the bikes affordable and you will get more good riders moving up from the other classes too. I reckon 10 bikes on the grid looks pathetic.

A simple recipe I would have thought would be....
Slip on muffler (stock mufflers to expensive to crunch)
Power commander (to allow for muffler)
Rear shock and fork internals (standard shocks just wear tyres much faster, so false economy)
Sprockets, Brake pads, Brake lines
Slicks (they last longer)
Go racing, enjoy.

Who knows, the larger grids, and closer racing might even encourage a spectator to turn up :yes:

Sentiments not too far off the mark.

[sidecar bob]

No its similiar mentality to other domestic racing classes around the world. Bikes at that level need better suspension first and foremost, be they heavily modified stock units or race thoroughbred aftermarket items that apart from a couple of very obvious benefits also have another very HUGE benefit. The ability to make setting changes ( external and internal ) with minimal fuss and very very quickly. Given that we have our own diversity of tracks thats an important factor .
So its a no brainer that good suspension is higher up the priority list than aftermarket wheels.
No one here is arguing the very real technical advantages of super lightweight wheels but it comes down to a line in the sand. Many racers struggle to afford the cost of a spare set of wheels as it is and as has been correctly pointed out ( without getting into other issues of purchasing offshore ad infinitum ) much of this stuff is purchased via e-bay or even borrowed etc.
Aftermarket wheels would have been a very significant cost elevation that even the distributor that most backs road racing was uneasy about. How do I know? Because I spoke to them about it Friday afternoon.
As I also stated in a prevoius post aftermarket forks were banned several seasons back and I totally accepted that without making a noise as even then I knew that the potential sales of these were a handful at best. Id love to sell a few sets of NZ$20K Ohlins forks ( just like you see fitted to the second level bikes in WSBK ) but it just aint going to happen.

Is it possible that the distributor that most backs road racing is also the distributor most likley to sell new O.E.M wheels to racers?
Allowing an aftermarket rear shock but not aftermarket forks is a little like allowing a carbon rear rim, but not a front one isint it?

[Biggles08]

Many racers struggle to afford the cost of a spare set of wheels as it is and as has been correctly pointed out ( without getting into other issues of purchasing offshore ad infinitum ) much of this stuff is purchased via e-bay or even borrowed etc.
Aftermarket wheels would have been a very significant cost elevation that even the distributor that most backs road racing was uneasy about. How do I know? Because I spoke to them about it Friday afternoon.
As I also stated in a prevoius post aftermarket forks were banned several seasons back and I totally accepted that without making a noise as even then I knew that the potential sales of these were a handful at best. Id love to sell a few sets of NZ$20K Ohlins forks ( just like you see fitted to the second level bikes in WSBK ) but it just aint going to happen.

I don't really believe its a fair comparison you are making Robert...I remember not too long ago when purchasing an Ohlins TTX36 was much less expensive by buying off ebay. You have addressed this issue by negotiating better prices from your supplier and now it is a no brainier for those in the market for a Ohlins to get it from you (for service support etc). There will always be the argument that its cheaper to import yourself via ebay and the likes but you know more than anyone that domestic businesses cost to run. You have to pay duties / GST whereas someone can buy a 'gift' off ebay. You NEED to make a profit albeit a small one. Its not a crime to make a living out of selling products and in fact is what our country and indeed sport runs on.

so.... a FAIR comparison for the wheels needs to be made here in New Zealand. Where can people get their wheels from at present? Mainly the manufacturers / dealers. Like I have said many times so far, a set of CARROZZERIA wheels for racers are most often CHEAPER than buying OEM. If people wish to purchase wheels from ebay, so be it...its a global economy...but at least let a domestic company have a crack at this important performance enhancer.

On the other points you made re the forks having being banned....well maybe the conversation needed to be had about maybe only allowing aftermarket 'alloy' wheels to minimize the extra cost's associated with the likes of Carbon wheels (even though personally I would love to see these allowed too...even tho we don't deal with them). This would be a simple answer in the same vein as allowing internal cartridges for the forks but not the entire forks. We never had the opportunity to have this discussion on Friday afternoon and I can tell you it would have been nice to have possibly cleared up some inaccurate cost presumptions that appear to have been made.

[cowpoos]

Last year we installed a shorter pullrod on the CBR1000s .

Linkages can be changed or modified for next year....

[Robert Taylor]

Is it possible that the distributor that most backs road racing is also the distributor most likley to sell new O.E.M wheels to racers?
Allowing an aftermarket rear shock but not aftermarket forks is a little like allowing a carbon rear rim, but not a front one isint it?

In theory yes but the e-bay option or other means will be most exercised. There is no conspiracy theory to suggest that the very distributor would reject aftermarket super lightweight wheels because it would hurt their sales of their own oem wheels. I personally know them better than that and they were in fact spinning out about the massive increase in budget to purchase several sets of wheels, that incidentally would have been a different brand to Biggles sponsor.
No disagree, aftermarket rear shock $2000, aftermarket race forks 5k to 20k. That is exactly why manufacturers such as Ohlins, WP and K-tech produce complete guts replacement aftermarket cartridges to bolt into the stock forks 2.5 k for NIX30 Ohlins fitted and optimised for our tracks. A substanial improvement for domestic racing at a much more affordable cost. A line in the sand that most accept.

[gixerracer]

Ya still off base man. Buy wheels or any product off ebay etc crash its fucked buy more. Buy Ohlins or WP or wot eva of ebay fit to your bike it is shit take to robert or ray or DICKIE suspension guy and it cost you many and then you try it again and it still not perfect another change more money its now mint go to another track O it shit again do you see where this is going :bye:
I don't really believe its a fair comparison you are making Robert...I remember not too long ago when purchasing an Ohlins TTX36 was much less expensive by buying off ebay. You have addressed this issue by negotiating better prices from your supplier and now it is a no brainier for those in the market for a Ohlins to get it from you (for service support etc). There will always be the argument that its cheaper to import yourself via ebay and the likes but you know more than anyone that domestic businesses cost to run. You have to pay duties / GST whereas someone can buy a 'gift' off ebay. You NEED to make a profit albeit a small one. Its not a crime to make a living out of selling products and in fact is what our country and indeed sport runs on.

so.... a FAIR comparison for the wheels needs to be made here in New Zealand. Where can people get their wheels from at present? Mainly the manufacturers / dealers. Like I have said many times so far, a set of CARROZZERIA wheels for racers are most often CHEAPER than buying OEM. If people wish to purchase wheels from ebay, so be it...its a global economy...but at least let a domestic company have a crack at this important performance enhancer.

On the other points you made re the forks having being banned....well maybe the conversation needed to be had about maybe only allowing aftermarket 'alloy' wheels to minimize the extra cost's associated with the likes of Carbon wheels (even though personally I would love to see these allowed too...even tho we don't deal with them). This would be a simple answer in the same vein as allowing internal cartridges for the forks but not the entire forks. We never had the opportunity to have this discussion on Friday afternoon and I can tell you it would have been nice to have possibly cleared up some inaccurate cost presumptions that appear to have been made.

[CHOPPA]

I've always thought it is not really rocket science to work out what top level NZ racing needs. More riders on the grid. Thats not going to happen in this country with check book racing. It's the same old 3 to 5 riders at the top then the also rans, and I predict the list of also rans will drop more and more as they lose interest in spending 40+k to have their arses kicked. Admittedly, the top guys are there because they actually are the best riders. So naturally the money which =- hot bits will follow them. How many superbikes on the grid last season? 10?

With equipment parity, There are riders capable of keeping the fast guys in sight, they will then start to even challenge the established order given an even playing field. Make the bikes affordable and you will get more good riders moving up from the other classes too. I reckon 10 bikes on the grid looks pathetic.

A simple recipe I would have thought would be....
Slip on muffler (stock mufflers to expensive to crunch)
Power commander (to allow for muffler)
Rear shock and fork internals (standard shocks just wear tyres much faster, so false economy)
Sprockets, Brake pads, Brake lines
Slicks (they last longer)
Go racing, enjoy.

Who knows, the larger grids, and closer racing might even encourage a spectator to turn up :yes:

Those rules look pretty much spot on, only thing I would debate is to go for a full exhaust as having a hory mid pipe welded on to a 40k race bike is a bit gay.

It really seems like this has been a general consensus on what would have been an ideal ruling, bikes that are 2007 bikes run 2007 spec rules 2008 run 2008 spec rules etc etc not sure where the rules came from??

[Robert Taylor]

I don't really believe its a fair comparison you are making Robert...I remember not too long ago when purchasing an Ohlins TTX36 was much less expensive by buying off ebay. You have addressed this issue by negotiating better prices from your supplier and now it is a no brainier for those in the market for a Ohlins to get it from you (for service support etc). There will always be the argument that its cheaper to import yourself via ebay and the likes but you know more than anyone that domestic businesses cost to run. You have to pay duties / GST whereas someone can buy a 'gift' off ebay. You NEED to make a profit albeit a small one. Its not a crime to make a living out of selling products and in fact is what our country and indeed sport runs on.

so.... a FAIR comparison for the wheels needs to be made here in New Zealand. Where can people get their wheels from at present? Mainly the manufacturers / dealers. Like I have said many times so far, a set of CARROZZERIA wheels for racers are most often CHEAPER than buying OEM. If people wish to purchase wheels from ebay, so be it...its a global economy...but at least let a domestic company have a crack at this important performance enhancer.

On the other points you made re the forks having being banned....well maybe the conversation needed to be had about maybe only allowing aftermarket 'alloy' wheels to minimize the extra cost's associated with the likes of Carbon wheels (even though personally I would love to see these allowed too...even tho we don't deal with them). This would be a simple answer in the same vein as allowing internal cartridges for the forks but not the entire forks. We never had the opportunity to have this discussion on Friday afternoon and I can tell you it would have been nice to have possibly cleared up some inaccurate cost presumptions that appear to have been made.

My thoughts re private imports etc are well documented but the unavoidable reality is it cannot be stopped and local business has to bend over and take it plus adapt and offer something that attracts business.

The reality is that when you buy a bike it comes with a set of wheels anyway. Unless the rider is earning 150k per annum or has a very generous and well heeled sponsor it is human nature that they will source the most cost effective spares. That is the point ( and the cold hard reality whether we like it or not) that you need to grasp.

[White trash]

Incidentally, if I was running in a Formula class I'd certainly at least consider the option of lightweight wheels to give myself the best fighting chance possible. Obviously, the rules permit them here so why aren't you pitching them at those racing in the F class Marcus?

(I'm not trying to be a funny cunt just wondering)

[Biggles08]

My thoughts re private imports etc are well documented but the unavoidable reality is it cannot be stopped and local business has to bend over and take it plus adapt and offer something that attracts business.

The reality is that when you buy a bike it comes with a set of wheels anyway. Unless the rider is earning 150k per annum or has a very generous and well heeled sponsor it is human nature that they will source the most cost effective spares. That is the point ( and the cold hard reality whether we like it or not) that you need to grasp.

I don't disagree with that at all, but its CARROZZERIA's job to show / promote the benefits of lighter wheels and why they should deal with us in NZ... I do grasp that concept completely...
Just to be a shit stirrer you do realize that when you buy a bike it also comes with suspension too (You did know I was going to say that right?!):shifty:

[Biggles08]

Incidentally, if I was running in a Formula class I'd certainly at least consider the option of lightweight wheels to give myself the best fighting chance possible. Obviously, the rules permit them here so why aren't you pitching them at those racing in the F class Marcus?

(I'm not trying to be a funny cunt just wondering)

Oh we will...LOL

The bigger market however is not the race market WT...its the road riders who will also benefit from upgrading their wheels. More coverage is given at National level so of course we would like to be able to showcase them at this level.

[White trash]

Take a lesson from sidecars before its too late for you guys too. Expensive bikes deplete the grid.
A full sidecar field last season probably cost the same as one five seasons ago, except that five seasons ago it was spread over thee times the number of machines worth an average of a third of the money each.

This is quite a good point but needs carefull consideration. The way I saw sidecar racing five seasons ago, no one could realistically take their machine overseas to compete as they simply weren't modern enough, now at least we have racers on more modern machinery who can and do take their rigs elsewhere to compete.

[Robert Taylor]

Linkages can be changed or modified for next year....

Thats ultimately BS as well. Because noise has been made about 1 Japanese bike with a very aggressive link. The late 90s S-Rad Suzukis also had a very aggressive link and to the best of my knowledge there were no noises then about legalising aftermarket links? For the record we tried one and it worked well but also Ohlins had a very trick rear shock spec that we have subsequently used in s-Rad Suzukis with stock links, it effects a HUGE improvement
The Triumph 675 and Ducati 848 thru 1198 also have bad links but you can make them work with a few tricks .

[Frenchy]

this is great.... i mean the weather is shit! and ive got nothing better to do so click on KiwiBiker for some afternoon entertainment :corn:

[Robert Taylor]

I don't disagree with that at all, but its CARROZZERIA's job to show / promote the benefits of lighter wheels and why they should deal with us in NZ... I do grasp that concept completely...
Just to be a shit stirrer you do realize that when you buy a bike it also comes with suspension too (You did know I was going to say that right?!):shifty:

Yes but you are missing my point and everyone elses about a line in the sand. And about fixing the weakest points first.

[White trash]

Oh we will...LOL

The bigger market however is not the race market WT...its the road riders who will also benefit from upgrading their wheels. More coverage is given at National level so of course we would like to be able to showcase them at this level.

Yeah, but let's be realistic mate. No one pays any attention to our National series. We're lucky if two races per meeting get televised. There's no spectators and the whole affair is simply a debacle. Quite frankly, (even before I raced) I didn't know or care who ran what brand of tyres on their race bikes. Actually, I lie, I knew Craig ran Dunlops but I still bought Metzeler because they were cheaper. Couldn't have told you who ran what suspension and I didn't care. Brand of wheels on the championship winning bike? Who the hell takes notice. And this is from a guy who took quite a lot of interest in the racing and results.

cv

[Kiwi Graham]

I don't agree with cheque book racing, I've seen what it did in the UK several years ago.

The line for performance mods has to be drawn somewhere and where it is, is about right.
If you want a fully blinged up bike..............go out prove yourself on the domestic scene get your international license perform there and bingo you'll be riding something with more carbon fibre than you can shake a stick at costing the equivalent of a years salary to fix when its biffed.

Racing motorcycles is expensive enough as it is without making it possible to spend even more money on it.

I don't agree with slagging off those that have been there done that, earn't the respect and turned around and put it back in either, it's fukin shameful.

[Biggles08]

Yes but you are missing my point and everyone elses about a line in the sand. And about fixing the weakest points first.

I'm not really...I guessing we will have to just disagree on this one. I believe and have felt the improvements I get with the wheels...and because of this I believe them to be equally as important to suspension. They work together equally and CARROZZERIA wheels are not cost prohibitive in the open classes when we consider what is spent on them currently

[cowpoos]

This is quite a good point but needs carefull consideration. The way I saw sidecar racing five seasons ago, no one could realistically take their machine overseas to compete as they simply weren't modern enough, now at least we have racers on more modern machinery who can and do take their rigs elsewhere to compete.

Why penalize everyone in the country...for the few that want to race overseas?

[Robert Taylor]

I'm not really...I guessing we will have to just disagree on this one. I believe and have felt the improvements I get with the wheels...and because of this I believe them to be equally as important to suspension. They work together equally and CARROZZERIA wheels are not cost prohibitive in the open classes when we consider what is spent on them currently

Give it a rest Marcus and accept it, the line in the sand has been drawn and frankly you have not been around long enough to make such a statement as above with total authority. Other racers on here have used super lightweight wheels either here or overseas and given priorities I know what they would have first.

[Biggles08]

Give it a rest Marcus and accept it, the line in the sand has been drawn and frankly you have not been around long enough to make such a statement as above with total authority. Other racers on here have used super lightweight wheels either here or overseas and given priorities I know what they would have first.

I will agree to give it a rest because I too don't seem to be getting anywhere productive in this debate...

I have never pretended to be anything other than what I am. I'm no Authority as you put it but I do have my opinion which I feel is justified regardless whether it is based on my limited experience in racing.

[Drew]

I'm not really...I guessing we will have to just disagree on this one. I believe and have felt the improvements I get with the wheels...and because of this I believe them to be equally as important to suspension. They work together equally and CARROZZERIA wheels are not cost prohibitive in the open classes when we consider what is spent on them currentlyThey make no where near the difference that suspension does, for handling or tyre wear.

How the fuck you would know at all is beyond me anyway, since you are running stock fork internals, and bloody slowly at that!

[CHOPPA]

Things are so much easier in MX! Buy a bike do whatever you like race it!

If someone wants to spend a million dollars to win a NZ championship then go for it, forget all the rules like you cant do this that or the other. The factory riders are going to have the best kit and if a private rider has a big check book if they cant ride for shit and if they are able to win races they will prob get a factory ride.

1 championship with no rules, prize money for the top 3 privateers.

[Robert Taylor]

I will agree to give it a rest because I too don't seem to be getting anywhere productive in this debate...

I have never pretended to be anything other than what I am. I'm no Authority as you put it but I do have my opinion which I feel is justified regardless whether it is based on my limited experience in racing.

My comment came out a little brutal and should have been preceded by ''with the greatest respect''. But the salient point remains and again with the greatest respect at your relatively tender number of years in road racing you face the same battle as many riders at the same stage. Getting your mind around chassis dynamics, suspension and geometry setup and everything working in harmony with the tyres.
As well as a logical progression in your riding skills progress on that front will be where you can make the greatest gains.
As a point relative to this thread superlightweight wheels were tried by a very top Superbike rider during the Tri Series. There was a very real negative in that he couldnt stop the front wheel popping up all the time exiting corners due to much less inertia. There is more mechanical grip when the front wheel is in contact with tarmac than in air! Such an issue may not be able to be totally successfully addressed without having a lot of electronics to cleverly suppress wheelies, and currently those electronics are largely the preserve of top level racing in BSB, WSBK and MotoGP. ( further cost ) I have spoken to Ohlins road race engineers about the very issue that I have just devulged.
There are always real world issues that are never covered in the sales blurb. In the end event this discussion has been productive and the decision that MNZ has made I think is the most productive one.

[gixerracer]

WILL ALL YOU WANKERS PLEASE SHUT UP YOU ARE GIVIN ME A HEADACHE.

thank u

[sidecar bob]

This is quite a good point but needs carefull consideration. The way I saw sidecar racing five seasons ago, no one could realistically take their machine overseas to compete as they simply weren't modern enough, now at least we have racers on more modern machinery who can and do take their rigs elsewhere to compete.

What happens overseas happens overseas, meanwhile we're fucked & nobody in Europe gives a toss about that.

[cowpoos]

WILL ALL YOU WANKERS PLEASE SHUT UP YOU ARE GIVIN ME A HEADACHE.

thank u

Is that a team suzuki new zealand sponsered comment? :baby::whistle:

[Kickaha]

thank u

You're welcome :finger:

[Robert Taylor]

WILL ALL YOU WANKERS PLEASE SHUT UP YOU ARE GIVIN ME A HEADACHE.

thank u

Dont undersetimate Craig even though hes a lovable rogue. He always knew that he would be welcomed back into the Suzuki family, and because he had that knowledge that is why he didnt change his forum name when he was racing Hondas. Clever bastard

[sugilite]

I'm not really...I guessing we will have to just disagree on this one. I believe and have felt the improvements I get with the wheels...and because of this I believe them to be equally as important to suspension. They work together equally and CARROZZERIA wheels are not cost prohibitive in the open classes when we consider what is spent on them currently

I have to disagree on the wheels as being equally important. When I raced a zx10R, I took it to the track for it's 1st test day - it was bone stock, I only put old slicks on. On lap 3 I was doing a 1:10, then lap 4 the shock went off in a big way and it was down to 1:12's. I would conservatively say that just an ohlins shock alone (never mind fork internals) I would easily cut 3 seconds of that 1:12 time (for me).
When I went from standard wheels to marchesini racing mags on another super bike, yeah, sure acceleration was a little better as was the flickability, but no way was it three seconds a lap better, and they did not save my tyres anywhere near as much as a good shock would.

[Nonbeliever]

1 / stock bikes with race fairings,road tyres (no need for extra rims/wets etc)

2 / safety factor?? gimme a break we're talking about racing motorcycles

3 / marcus or whatever your name is, if Im ever in the market for your wheels I think I'll just get them off the net.We can all see why you were trying to promote this bs

[Crasherfromwayback]

1 / stock bikes with race fairings,road tyres (no need for extra rims/wets etc)

2 / safety factor?? gimme a break we're talking about racing motorcycles

3 / marcus or whatever your name is, if Im ever in the market for your wheels I think I'll just get them off the net.We can all see why you were trying to promote this bs

I'm with you 100%. If I thought I could go an buy a used GSXR1000L0, put some fibreglass fairings on it and go racing...I'd fucking near consider it. It's how it used to be. Strange that when that's how it actually was...we produced some of the best road racers NZ has seen.

[The Locco'n'Motion]

:gob:

Perhaps as the Importer I can add something Factual to the Generally Very Emotive and Groundless comments in this thread.

I note that you can still spend - Thousands of Bucks on Suspension System Mod's that have to be tuned at everty race meeting for every track - Perhaps some FACTS ON WHAT THE COST OF ALL THESE MUTLIPLE VARIABLES CAN COST TO DEAL WITH????

If you were to Take the Basic Laws of Physic's and apply them then by Scientific Comparison and Analysis a Set of Wheels that Weighs up to 40% LESS!!! yes that is Correct, will Make a Substantive Improvement "ONE OFF" to the Performance Characteristics of your bike Period Not Further Adjustmet Required.

As for the Costs - Well Get the Facts From Me if you are a Racer - but it ain't gonna be $4k per wheel set and you also really aught to ask what you get for the price you pay.

When you see what any Prominant Aftermarket Susepension Units Cost to buy and then to operate - well you never know it could make perfect sense FINCANCIALLY to Have the Wheels and Work with the OEM Suspension Components and see what Performance Results You Really Get.

Nevertheless it is always a Choice - You Dohn't ahve to have them just like you don't ahve to ahve Ohlins - it is the Racers & Race Bike Builders Choice.

I guess that is truly what this is all about - HAVING A CHOICE!!!

Lets face it Racing isn't for those with NO MONEY it is exactly the Oposite - You Have to have some money and also it depends if you want to Get a Break on any of the Overseas Pro Circuits like the AMA / SBK / MotoGP!!! God Forbid it if there were to be a KIWI Rider That Made it into the MotoGP because he had the Real Choice to Be able to buy Top Line DOT / JAL Road Certified Aftermarket Wheels???

Wouldn't it be Great to ahve a KIWI back in those Comp's like Young Nick Cole.

So far I have read only a whole line of Drivel about Highly Charged Emotional Oppinions but nothing that has any Factual Basis!!

So lets hear from you race guys out there who have done your homework on the Material Facts.

The Fact is if you don't do anything to advance with Technology you will just go BACKWARDS AT AN INCREASING RATE OF KPH'S INTO OBLIVION.

Anyone Interested in Seeing Choppa Get onto a World Super Bike??? What about Nick Cole??

Well you won't if we as Kiwi's persist in Keeping Our Heads in the Sand as all other nations like Big Bro Occa Ozzies hit the big time in the AMA and all of the other international classes.


Come on - Burt Monro had a Can Do Spirit and he had far less money to play with than all of today's current competitors have!!! Think About it & maybe give it up for a New Idea to help get more Sponsor Involvement in the Sport to see it flourish rather than attrophy and diminish into a Naggers Column for Has Been's.

Cheers - Let MNZ Give Aftermarket Wheels a Go & Help Rejuvinate some Factual Thinking into the World of NZ's Premier Road Racing Scene....

Rock On Y'all



Holy shit, we agree on something! Great way to add four K to the cost of building a bike. 12 if you want three sets of trick rims.

[CHOPPA]

1 / stock bikes with race fairings,road tyres (no need for extra rims/wets etc)

2 / safety factor?? gimme a break we're talking about racing motorcycles

3 / marcus or whatever your name is, if Im ever in the market for your wheels I think I'll just get them off the net.We can all see why you were trying to promote this bs

Way to go ;) Thats a brilliant attitude! This sponsor paid for Marcus to do the whole national series last year, another bike on the grid. Maybe Marcus has tried a bit hard to prove his point but atleast he is out there batting for his sponsor.

Great one mate :2thumbsup

[CHOPPA]

This thread needs to go in the pd forum it is so far off topic and it really isnt doing any good for racing or sponsors of the sport

[Nonbeliever]

Great one mate :2thumbsup

cheers, mate

[Nonbeliever]

I'm with you 100%. If I thought I could go an buy a used GSXR1000L0, put some fibreglass fairings on it and go racing...I'd fucking near consider it.

I bet there are many with the same thought

[sidecar bob]

I'm with you 100%. If I thought I could go an buy a used GSXR1000L0, put some fibreglass fairings on it and go racing...I'd fucking near consider it. It's how it used to be. Strange that when that's how it actually was...we produced some of the best road racers NZ has seen.
Yep, & some of us old cunts had a ball on & off track doing it & didnt need to sell the family silver to do so.
Heres a solution, make the rule either atermarket shock, OR aftermarket wheels for those that cant be arsed with the constant fettling.

[The Locco'n'Motion]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

What is required is Engineering Science - Facts - The Basic Facts Of Physic's.

Tell me this - Why Do Racers the World Over Use Forged Pistons, Con Rod,s Crank Shafts, wheels and such like??

I'll tell ya why!!! - Because The Increase In Strength can be by Factors of three or more, and the reduction in rotational Mass can be as much as 40+% Lower than OEM Cast Materials of the same nature - EG Steel With Steel or Alloy with Alloy of the same Grade & Type.

So the Laws of Motor Cycle Rotational Mass are the same when it comes to the Wheels - Take 6kg's out of your wheels and perhaps we can safely say you have taken 18kg's Off the Sprung Chassis.

What does the Suspension actually do??

Well its sole purpose in life is to Deal with the "SPRING WEIGHT" of the Chassis and everything on it.

Therefore - What deals with the "UN-SPRUNG" Weight of the Wheels that spin at some hideous speeds and the only control over this Rotataional Weight is through the Tyres and the Steering Geometry of the Chassis.

So when you allege and air your 'Opinion' that Lighter Wheels Have Less Significance than an Ohlins you simply express your lack of knowledge of the the Performance Dynamic's of a Motorycle Rolling Chassis and its ability to deal with the Surfaces it travels over & in the case of Raqcing Motorycles at considerable speeds.

I agree that Chassis Dynamic's as controled by your Ohlins still has to be Set Up For Each Track, but its overall performance will be greatly Enhanced by increased Track Lap Times Because of the use of Lighter Wheels with their Centre Of Mass Located as in teh Case of the Carrozzeria Forged Alloys Very Tightly Around the Axle Hub which Impacts the Moment Of Enertia of the Wheels.

Heightened Performance Comes from the Reduction of Effort (Horse Power or Kilowatts) Required to Motivate the Wheels in the first Instance and Gyroscopic Forces exerted on the front wheel when turning in are Greatly Reduced (Gives a Reduction in Tyre Wear) to enable a Higher Corner Speed with greater Safety and Precision.

Then there is the fact that the Brakes are working at a lesser effort to slow the Rotational Wheel Wieght Down which Implies that the Rate of Deceleration Effort is enhanced which one again implies that the bike will decelerate quicker meaning that you can brake later and - bingo Go Around the Corner Faster and Bingo Maybe over a 10 lapper you get to Win The Race rather than a lesser result which is what I thought Racing was all about???

Help me here but this is not the Opinion of me as the Importer - Rather it is a Statement of Physic's & Engineering Scientific Facts.

So how'se that???

Tell me then "Why should my Forged Wheels be exlcuded when Ohlins and all the other Aftermarket Performance Parts Are Not."

Dollar For Dollar if you fit my Tri-R Race Grade DOT & JAL Approved Wheels to your race bike you will get a bigger Bang for your Race Dollar in One hit than any other way. This I beleive from my knowledge of Race Suspension Parts Costs is a Fate Compli.

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion


I have to disagree on the wheels as being equally important. When I raced a zx10R, I took it to the track for it's 1st test day - it was bone stock, I only put old slicks on. On lap 3 I was doing a 1:10, then lap 4 the shock went off in a big way and it was down to 1:12's. I would conservatively say that just an ohlins shock alone (never mind fork internals) I would easily cut 3 seconds of that 1:12 time (for me).
When I went from standard wheels to marchesini racing mags on another super bike, yeah, sure acceleration was a little better as was the flickability, but no way was it three seconds a lap better, and they did not save my tyres anywhere near as much as a good shock would.

[cowpoos]

:gob:

Perhaps as the Importer I can add something Factual to the Generally Very Emotive and Groundless comments in this thread.

I note that you can still spend - Thousands of Bucks on Suspension System Mod's that have to be tuned at everty race meeting for every track - Perhaps some FACTS ON WHAT THE COST OF ALL THESE MUTLIPLE VARIABLES CAN COST TO DEAL WITH????

If you were to Take the Basic Laws of Physic's and apply them then by Scientific Comparison and Analysis a Set of Wheels that Weighs up to 40% LESS!!! yes that is Correct, will Make a Substantive Improvement "ONE OFF" to the Performance Characteristics of your bike Period Not Further Adjustmet Required.

As for the Costs - Well Get the Facts From Me if you are a Racer - but it ain't gonna be $4k per wheel set and you also really aught to ask what you get for the price you pay.

When you see what any Prominant Aftermarket Susepension Units Cost to buy and then to operate - well you never know it could make perfect sense FINCANCIALLY to Have the Wheels and Work with the OEM Suspension Components and see what Performance Results You Really Get.

Nevertheless it is always a Choice - You Dohn't ahve to have them just like you don't ahve to ahve Ohlins - it is the Racers & Race Bike Builders Choice.

I guess that is truly what this is all about - HAVING A CHOICE!!!

Lets face it Racing isn't for those with NO MONEY it is exactly the Oposite - You Have to have some money and also it depends if you want to Get a Break on any of the Overseas Pro Circuits like the AMA / SBK / MotoGP!!! God Forbid it if there were to be a KIWI Rider That Made it into the MotoGP because he had the Real Choice to Be able to buy Top Line DOT / JAL Road Certified Aftermarket Wheels???

Wouldn't it be Great to ahve a KIWI back in those Comp's like Young Nick Cole.

So far I have read only a whole line of Drivel about Highly Charged Emotional Oppinions but nothing that has any Factual Basis!!

So lets hear from you race guys out there who have done your homework on the Material Facts.

The Fact is if you don't do anything to advance with Technology you will just go BACKWARDS AT AN INCREASING RATE OF KPH'S INTO OBLIVION.

Anyone Interested in Seeing Choppa Get onto a World Super Bike??? What about Nick Cole??

Well you won't if we as Kiwi's persist in Keeping Our Heads in the Sand as all other nations like Big Bro Occa Ozzies hit the big time in the AMA and all of the other international classes.


Come on - Burt Monro had a Can Do Spirit and he had far less money to play with than all of today's current competitors have!!! Think About it & maybe give it up for a New Idea to help get more Sponsor Involvement in the Sport to see it flourish rather than attrophy and diminish into a Naggers Column for Has Been's.

Cheers - Let MNZ Give Aftermarket Wheels a Go & Help Rejuvinate some Factual Thinking into the World of NZ's Premier Road Racing Scene....

Rock On Y'all

aye???? how are your wheels going to help someone race to a higher level??? the less cost there are...the more the playing field lowers....and it will never effect the talent of riders.

You have had some top NZ racers and suspension technicians post on this thread...none of them were Pro Yourself and marcus's points....maybe you just need to conceed defeat....and realise your view is not shared with the majority....simple....don't make the punters or potential punts not deal with you now because of the way you and your sponsered rider are acting.

[The Locco'n'Motion]

Sounds Good In Theory:

I'm still with having choice and besides "How Many Years is it since we had a Credible KIWI Racer on the International Road Race Circuit Scene??"

Who Cares how big your Balls are - I want to see a winner and if the AMA runs aftermarket forged wheels - What's with the KIWI Establishment once again trying to be so Idealogically Pure"

Sounds Like Aunty Helen to Me??!!

:rockon:

The Locco'n'Motion



Yep, & some of us old cunts had a ball on & off track doing it & didnt need to sell the family silver to do so.
Heres a solution, make the rule either atermarket shock, OR aftermarket wheels for those that cant be arsed with the constant fettling.

[Owl]

So how'se that???

Pretty poor from an english perspective!:msn-wink:

[White trash]

I'm with you 100%. If I thought I could go an buy a used GSXR1000L0, put some fibreglass fairings on it and go racing...I'd fucking near consider it. It's how it used to be. Strange that when that's how it actually was...we produced some of the best road racers NZ has seen.

Awesome. Read the Superstock rules, buy your thou', we'll see ya at Round I big fella.

[The Locco'n'Motion]

Ya right on there Choppa - So much Drivel Opinion and No Facts.

Where are the Innovators in MNZ & Road Racer's Fraternity that are thinking of the Future of KIWI Racers on the International Scene in the Premier Classes???

It seems that the typical Iconic KIWI Paranoia is that - Everything has to be Cheap!!! Oh & Good Quality Too!!

Since when has Racing Ever Been Cheap???!!!!

How do you attract New Blood & Sponsors if the Rules are just so far behind the International 8 Ball that we are fast becoming an Isolated Bunch of Backward looking Ideological Fundamentalits!

There are Plenty of Classes for Everyone to Race at their Affordability Level, but The Premier Classes - This should be the Area we promote NZ's Best Rising Young Talent to take the Leap Onto the International Scene.

With the kind of thinking on this Thread - NZ Racers will become simply Hixtorical Nostalgia.

I hate that thought with a vengance and the MNZ Leaders should be thinking of this rather than the sort of thinking that has been spued out in this column to date.

:rockon:

The Locco'n'
Motion.


This thread needs to go in the pd forum it is so far off topic and it really isnt doing any good for racing or sponsors of the sport

[White trash]

This thread needs to go in the pd forum it is so far off topic and it really isnt doing any good for racing or sponsors of the sport

Rubish Chop. Prolonged healthy debate is great and its only got mildly personal a couple of times. Keep it open. :jerry:

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

fark me! forget the wheels, just get out there and twist the throttle harder than the other dude!:done:

[The Locco'n'Motion]

Oh I am not saying that the Wheels Alone are going to Maker a Rider Better - That is Called Rider Skill of course - BUT and it is a big but - Unsprung Weight is the Nemesis of any motorcycle - That is the Fact's of the Matter - it ain't my opinion ya know.

Riding Talent is a field apart from Chassis Dynamic's & Performance - BUT - If you give a Great Rider Better Machinery Dynamics then they can Go Faster & Win!

That is what racing is all about too!

So in reply to your question - "How are lighter and stronger wheels going to help someone race to a higher level?"

Pretty much because they will be able (if their suspension tech's are top notch) to go Faster Around the Enture Track including the Corners!

Why the bike accelerates faster, stops faster and the reduction in Gyroscopic Force which is a Counter to Excelent turn in into the corners will give the racer the ability to Go Through the Corner at a Higher Corner Speed Given the Bike is Well Dialed in on all other Suspension Settings to suit any given tracks sudrface and grip characterisitic's.

I hope that answers the question satisfactorily enough to enable you to at least ascede to that bit of factual material.

The Choice is still with the racer where he spends his budget in terms of being able to attain the fastest lap times consistently around any given track in Kiwi Land.
:rockon:


aye???? how are your wheels going to help someone race to a higher level??? the less cost there are...the more the playing field lowers....and it will never effect the talent of riders.

You have had some top NZ racers and suspension technicians post on this thread...none of them were Pro Yourself and marcus's points....maybe you just need to conceed defeat....and realise your view is not shared with the majority....simple....don't make the punters or potential punts not deal with you now because of the way you and your sponsered rider are acting.

[Tony.OK]

What does the Suspension actually do??

Well its sole purpose in life is to Deal with the "SPRING WEIGHT" of the Chassis and everything on it.

Therefore - What deals with the "UN-SPRUNG" Weight of the Wheels that spin at some hideous speeds and the only control over this Rotataional Weight is through the Tyres and the Steering Geometry of the Chassis.



So you're saying that hitting a bump with a wheel of any sort needs no involvement with suspension? :blink:
If you want to talk physics...............do you not think that forces applied to a lighter wheel are any different than a heavier wheel? Something has to control those forces.......its called suspension.........and the better you can tune that control then the better everything works in harmony.

Mate I think the rims are bloody nice, and was maybe the 1st person in NZ to have some, but the ship has sailed on them being allowed. Unfortunately most bikes come with a free set of rims attached, so then that reduces costs (and thats what NZ needs) in that less purchases are needed.

No one is disputing that light rims are better...........good on you for getting another bike and rider on the grid:yes:

[sidecar bob]

Rubish Chop. Prolonged healthy debate is great and its only got mildly personal a couple of times. Keep it open. :jerry:
Of course if it goes on too long, or too many people become involved, it becomes a mass debate & we dont want that.

[cowpoos]

Sounds Good In Theory:

I'm still with having choice and besides "How Many Years is it since we had a Credible KIWI Racer on the International Road Race Circuit Scene??"

Who Cares how big your Balls are - I want to see a winner and if the AMA runs aftermarket forged wheels - What's with the KIWI Establishment once again trying to be so Idealogically Pure"

Sounds Like Aunty Helen to Me??!!

:rockon:

The Locco'n'Motion

Your full of crap... and at $4500 a set.. --> http://www.loccomotion.com/rjzc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=81_82&products_id=210 your fucking dreaming as well...I just got a price from a large USA website that ships here...$2600 for gsxr1000 09-10 kit.

[White trash]

Ya right on there Choppa - So much Drivel Opinion and No Facts.

Where are the Innovators in MNZ & Road Racer's Fraternity that are thinking of the Future of KIWI Racers on the International Scene in the Premier Classes???

It seems that the typical Iconic KIWI Paranoia is that - Everything has to be Cheap!!! Oh & Good Quality Too!!

Since when has Racing Ever Been Cheap???!!!!

How do you attract New Blood & Sponsors if the Rules are just so far behind the International 8 Ball that we are fast becoming an Isolated Bunch of Backward looking Ideological Fundamentalits!

There are Plenty of Classes for Everyone to Race at their Affordability Level, but The Premier Classes - This should be the Area we promote NZ's Best Rising Young Talent to take the Leap Onto the International Scene.

With the kind of thinking on this Thread - NZ Racers will become simply Hixtorical Nostalgia.

I hate that thought with a vengance and the MNZ Leaders should be thinking of this rather than the sort of thinking that has been spued out in this column to date.

:rockon:

The Locco'n'
Motion.

Obviously you have a heap of experience in the game and have no agendas.

Simply put. Adding cost for "non necessary" parts to the rules is pointless and will further reduce the grid numbers. So the rule was not passed. I can't understand what is so fucking difficult to understand about that. We then consign the entire Superbike class in NZ to the Historical Nostalgia department.

This is obviously where you'd rather have it.

Retard.

[White trash]

Of course if it goes on too long, or too many people become involved, it becomes a mass debate & we dont want that.

I'm all about mass debating. You know that mate :D

[Ozzy27]

Ya right on there Choppa - So much Drivel Opinion and No Facts.

Where are the Innovators in MNZ & Road Racer's Fraternity that are thinking of the Future of KIWI Racers on the International Scene in the Premier Classes???
I am right here and I believe I have put many time the amount of time and money into the future of NZ racers than yourself and most out without having an agenda!
The only thing stopping NZ having a racer racing internationally is Money Fact!! I had 2 ride available for one of our best up and conimg NZ riders for this year the only thing that stopped him was the $100k+living expenses!

It seems that the typical Iconic KIWI Paranoia is that - Everything has to be Cheap!!! Oh & Good Quality Too!!

Since when has Racing Ever Been Cheap???!!!! Never!! But we need to be smart

How do you attract New Blood & Sponsors if the Rules are just so far behind the International 8 Ball that we are fast becoming an Isolated Bunch of Backward looking Ideological Fundamentalits!Our rules are not far behind the rest of the world!! Oz std wheels Uk std wheels except s/bike USA std wheels except s/bike world std wheels except s/bike yet they all have aftermarket suspension!

There are Plenty of Classes for Everyone to Race at their Affordability Level, but The Premier Classes - This should be the Area we promote NZ's Best Rising Young Talent to take the Leap Onto the International Scene. I have raced at all level up to world Championship level as a Technican and Fact if I gave any of the 20+ international level rider the choice wheels or shock they would all take the shock

With the kind of thinking on this Thread - NZ Racers will become simply Hixtorical Nostalgia.

I hate that thought with a vengance and the MNZ Leaders should be thinking of this rather than the sort of thinking that has been spued out in this column to date.
I think you need to re read this as a lot of the people who have commented have been there and done that in NZ and internationally and have a lot more knowledge about racing motorcycles than yourself!! To be a has been you have to have been something at some time!! Please enlighten us all with your experience???
:rockon:

The Locco'n'
Motion.

I think this thread has gone past having any constructive benfit for anyone!!!

[White trash]

Obviously you have a heap of experience in the game and have no agendas.

Simply put. Adding cost for "non necessary" parts to the rules is pointless and will further reduce the grid numbers. So the rule was not passed. I can't understand what is so fucking difficult to understand about that. We then consign the entire Superbike class in NZ to the Historical Nostalgia department.

This is obviously where you'd rather have it.

Retard.

And furthermore, to prove a point.

If your wheels are the miracle cure that yourself and Marcus are proclaiming for setup, then obviously you WOULD need to have them to be competitive had the rules been changed. And therefore raised the cost of building a bike. You rave on about "getting with the times" so to speak, yet if the aftermarket wheels had been allowed for Supersport, we would be the ONLY domestic 600 class in the world that allowed them. How the hell is that beneficial to NZ racers again?

I've got a good idea.

Let Biggles argue the point of whether the rules should or shouldn't have been changed in your favour because he comes accross as far less of a cock than you do.

FYI it was MNZ that voted on the rules, not the posters of this thread so calling us all a bunch of backward thinkers really isn't selling your product very well.

[White trash]

I think this thread has gone past having any constructive benfit for anyone!!!

And then Chris just smashed me in far fewer words. Nice work Ozzy.

[The Locco'n'Motion]

Hi Rob:

Physic's isn't a matter of opinion and it has been around a whole lot longer than all of us giving our Tuppence Hapenny's worth of wisdom.

My Information Sources Come From a Highly Qualified Race Professional Engineer who has as part of his Credentials been the Chief Race Engineer for Kawasaki International Motorcycle Racing and who is the President of the Manufacturer I represent.

Here are his summarised thoughts on the Subject of the importance of Wheel Weight and Unsprung Masses that pertain to Motorcycle's and the Racing thereof: -

• Our products allows for enhanced ride ability and a lighter overall weight of the vehicle.

• The Forging process has been in existence for, thousands of years and by using all of the modern technological advances of the modern era the Critical “Un-Sprung” Weight of any Motorcycle can be radically reduced making the bike handle better and ride smoother.

• Because of the highest standards of strength and safety are of the utmost importance, this technology of shaping metal is still currently used in aerospace and high performance automotive industries, but never before until Hi Point introduced this in motorcycle market a few years ago.

• Forging improves the structure of metal by refining the grain size of the metal.
o This process makes metal stronger and docile than cast metal.
o The metal also has a greater resistance to fatigue and impact.
o Carrozzeria Wheels are typically exhibiting up to 1.8 times more strength than other manufactures that use a non-forging process.
o As a result, our safety standards set by the NHTSA, D.O.T. and Japan's JWL.
• When you compare our Forged Aluminium Wheels with Magnesium or Carbon Wheels, yes they are lighter, but when you think of your safety and durability, none of them even come close to our forged aluminium wheels.

• Just ask any Professional about the benefits of Forged Aluminium versus Cast Wheels Titanium Wheels & Carbon Fibre Wheels and you see that what we are saying is indeed the Truth.

• Carrozzeria Forged Rims are made from Wrought 6151-T6 Aluminium which has an inherently better “Grain” structure and is not only stronger then cast wheels, but more uniform and consistent in quality.

o To illustrate we have compared the strength of the material used in Carrozzeria Forged Wheels with the strongest casting alloys listed in a Standard Engineering Textbook, as we do not know precisely what materials are used in stock or other aftermarket cast wheels.

o We listed the highest strength cast alloys listed in the reference Text Book.

o In reality the difference may actually be greater than shown.

o Also cast wheels are much more likely to have internal defects which will reduce the properties even more.

• Material Tensile Strength Yield Strength Elongation Product 6151-T6 44 ksi 37 ksi - 10% Carrozzeria Rims.

o A356-T6 41 ksi 30 ksi - 10% Hi-Strength Aluminium Casting Alloy

o 355-T6 42 ksi 27 ksi - 4% Typical Aluminium Casting Alloy

ZK61A-T6 45 ksi 28 ksi - 10% The Strongest Magnesium Casting Alloy Listed

• Source: Metals Handbook Desk Edition Published by American Society for Metals.

• Carrozzeria Wheels will not crack like cast magnesium wheels and will provide superior durability to the stock wheel.

• Carrozzeria Forged Rims are 20–40% lighter than stock wheel rims - depending on model. Thus Reducing Weight on a motorcycle that will allow it to always accelerate, corner and brake better.

• Some weight reductions are much more valuable than others.

o Motorcycle weight can be classified in two ways.

o Sprung or Un-Sprung and Rotating or Non-Rotating.

o Wheel weight is both rotating and Un-Sprung, which as you will read is the most significant weight to remove.

• Sprung weight is everything that suspension holds up whilst Un-Sprung weight is the wheel, sprocket, calliper, disks, axle and a percentage of the shock and swing arm.
• Un-sprung weight is the nemesis of the suspension in the war to maintain tire contact with the tarmac.

• The less unsprungun-sprung weight the more effectively the suspension and ultimately the tires can do their jobs.


• To explain this better, let’s pretend you had a job in which you had to raise and lower a hammer as moving obstacles came by on some sort of moving conveyor belt.
o First you had a hammer with a ½ Kilogram Head.

 As the conveyor belt moved faster, at some point it would become impossible to move quickly enough and the hammer would hit the Conveyor instead of the Target.

 If you used a hammer with a 250 gram head you would be able to negotiate the moving obstacles at a greater speed.

o Now imagine the hammer head is the wheel, and your wrist is the suspension system and the moving conveyor with obstacles is the bumpy tarmac.

 This is why most cars have independent suspension, thereby ‘Reducing!’ the Un-Sprung Weight, which will in turn improve the Traction, especially within bumpy corners or over Bumpy Roads.

• Rotating weight on a motorcycle counts twice every time you accelerate or brake.

o The reason for this is the engine must increase both the wheels’ linear velocity as well as their rotational velocity. It is a little more complicated in reality, but each kilogram that you remove from the wheels is equal to approximately 2 or more Kilograms being removed from the chassis.

o Reducing the weight of you wheels will allow your bike to not only accelerate faster, but brake better as well.

• An additional benefit to reducing rotating weight is that of the reduction in GYROSCOPIC Effect of the wheels.

o The easiest way to understand this is to conduct an experiment at home.

o Get the front wheel off your bicycle.

o Hold the axle with your hands and have a partner spin the wheel at a moderate speed.

o As the wheel spins pretend you are the forks and “turn” the wheel. You now have a feel for gyroscopic forces.

o Now imagine what a motorcycle wheel with much greater weight and speed goes through when you attempt to change directions quickly in a in a series of turns.

Rob:

The Point I am making is simple - Why allow expensive Aftermarket Suspension and then not allow Aftermarket Wheels that are Stronger & Lighter and therefore Safer than the Cast Alloy Equivalents?

That is intrinsicaly a bias that is not equitable in anyones measure of Rule Fairness.

Good Luck for the coming season's racing.

:rockon:

The Locco'n'Motion


Give it a rest Marcus and accept it, the line in the sand has been drawn and frankly you have not been around long enough to make such a statement as above with total authority. Other racers on here have used super lightweight wheels either here or overseas and given priorities I know what they would have first.

[sidecar bob]

Obviously you have a heap of experience in the game and have no agendas.

Simply put. Adding cost for "non necessary" parts to the rules is pointless and will further reduce the grid numbers. So the rule was not passed. I can't understand what is so fucking difficult to understand about that. We then consign the entire Superbike class in NZ to the Historical Nostalgia department.

This is obviously where you'd rather have it.

Retard.
Hmm, but using that theory we need to chuck away those beautiful gold shocks & tyre warmers tho bro.

[Quasievil]

I would love to get involved in this thread, shit, Mr Poos, Whitetrashy trashman, Gixxergayracer ,shauncuntharris the lot, but I wont , I wouldnt know what I was talking about anyway so will leave you to it, but can yas get a bit more agro? could be reasonably entertaining :yes:

[kiwifruit]

I would love to get involved in this thread but i'm too slow

me too :love:

[White trash]

Hmm, but using that theory we need to chuck away those beautiful gold shocks & tyre warmers tho bro.

Sweet as my man, but the esteemed Mr Bradford (who incidentally I would consider to be of the same school as your goodself) has already explained it beautifuly.

Standard suspension does not remain constant throughout a race. It changes dramatically over a fairly small periond. 3-4 laps in Anthony's experience. That not only fucks expensive tyres very quickly, but I reckon it's reasonably risky.

Tyrewarmers? Ever ridden a Superbike without em? I have. Crashed turn two of the outlap (however that's not unusual). They also massively rduce cold shear, therefore saving me bucks.

Now I have no doubt that these flash lightweight wheels will probably reduce tyre wear to a small extent also, but it'll take ten years to pay for the purchase cost. The BIG factor is my "shitty, grainy and wek cast wheels to not deteriorate in terms of performance over the space of a race, a meeting or in fact a season. So as I can rely on them to be reliable, I'll stick with the happily UNLESS the rules are changed and half the field (seeking every small improvement) has them and I therefore feel the need to get them to enjoy the same performance benefits.

So huge difference between warmers, suspension and forged wheels for my mind.

Quasi, you're a fuckwit. (Agro enough for you bro?)

[White trash]

Hi Rob:

Physic's isn't a matter of opinion and it has been around a whole lot longer than all of us giving our Tuppence Hapenny's worth of wisdom.
blah blah technical stuff blah blah
equitable in anyones measure of Rule Fairness.

Good Luck for the coming season's racing.

:rockon:

The Locco'n'Motion

No one's said the wheels aren't good or of performance benefit. You're right, physics is hard to argue with. What some of us are saying is that we're happy the rule didn't change because we don't want to feel pressured to have had to purchase them to be competitive. It's money added to the budget and that budget gets smaller every year it seems.

[Quasievil]

Quasi, you're a fuckwit. (Agro enough for you bro?)

Cheers , now I feel at least a little bit involved.

[sidecar bob]

Sweet as my man, but the esteemed Mr Bradford (who incidentally I would consider to be of the same school as your goodself) Go on, say it, old schoolhas already explained it beautifuly.

Standard suspension does not remain constant throughout a race. It changes dramatically over a fairly small periond. 3-4 lapsso does my body, but the rule makers dont seem to give a fuck about that in Anthony's experience. That not only fucks expensive tyres very quickly, but I reckon it's reasonably risky.

Tyrewarmers? Ever ridden a Superbike without em?yep, i fired my RSV down the road on a pair of cold Pilot Race I have. Crashed turn two of the outlap (however that's not unusual). They also massively rduce cold shear, therefore saving me bucks.

Now I have no doubt that these flash lightweight wheels will probably reduce tyre wear to a small extent also, but it'll take ten years to pay for the purchase cost. The BIG factor is my "shitty, grainy and wek cast wheels to not deteriorate in terms of performance over the space of a race, a meeting or in fact a season. So as I can rely on them to be reliable, I'll stick with the happily UNLESS the rules are changed and half the field (seeking every small improvement) has them and I therefore feel the need to get them to enjoy the same performance benefits.

So huge difference between warmers, suspension and forged wheels for my mindyeah yeah, but its an entertaining way to fill in a cold rainy Sunday afternoon.

Quasi, you're a fuckwit. (Agro enough for you bro?)

Youre a cunt W.T, just to keep the agro up to the required minimum

[White trash]

Youre a cunt W.T, just to keep the agro up to the required minimum

Lol. I wonder if the weather had been nice out today whether this thread would have disappeared after five pages. There'd be a whole less cocksuckers talking shit and throwing big words around that's for sure :D

[Robert Taylor]

So you're saying that hitting a bump with a wheel of any sort needs no involvement with suspension? :blink:
If you want to talk physics...............do you not think that forces applied to a lighter wheel are any different than a heavier wheel? Something has to control those forces.......its called suspension.........and the better you can tune that control then the better everything works in harmony.

Mate I think the rims are bloody nice, and was maybe the 1st person in NZ to have some, but the ship has sailed on them being allowed. Unfortunately most bikes come with a free set of rims attached, so then that reduces costs (and thats what NZ needs) in that less purchases are needed.

No one is disputing that light rims are better...........good on you for getting another bike and rider on the grid:yes:

Well said Tony. Facts were presented including the problem with wheelie control. Acknowledgement of the technical advantages of super lightweight wheels was also agreed upon.
But the fact of the matter is there are very few Superbikes on the grid and the addition of Superstock 1000 will possibly dilute that grid number even further. Add yet another significant cost and it will dilute further.
No emotion, stated how I see it and even the major motorcycle distributor was gunshy about the extra cost dimension, exacerbated further that as the distributor their landed cost on oem wheels is somewhat lower than dealer cost or full retail. So significantly more expense for them given mutiple wheels required!!!!!
Having been in this market a long time and at all levels I think I might have a significant appreciation of what people can and cannot reasonably afford in what is a low wage economy with an absence of large numbers of well heeled sponsors.
Very experienced and fast racers with no axe to grind ( eg Suglite ) have also stated it as they see it, thats grass roots opinion from non distributor backed riders who had they the means would perform very respectably in Superbike.
And to those who sniped about ''constant fiddling'', nothing wrong with that if you have the inclination to do so. Decades ago you just added preload and poured ''golden syrup'' into the forks because the tyres had no grip and the engines had no power, so the suspension wasnt challenged in the same way. ( and none of us knew anything about suspension ) But the world has moved on and if you watch WSBK / MotoGP the commentators are always talking about the setup of the bike. This is 2010 and the setting window for bikes and their tyres to perform at optimum is very very narrow.
Suspension setup is where you find the laptimes, whether you race in NZ, Australia, formerly Great Britain or Timbuktu. Stock suspension is also the biggest single impediment to precise chassis control, laptimes and maximising grip and tyre longevity. Well known facts the world over.
Dont get me wrong I love engineering to the nth degree and Id love to sell 20 -30 Superbike fork sets per year. As would selling super lightweight wheels, and for the record Ive had lots of experience with these in the past, here and in the UK.
But to repeat yet again, the class has to not be beyond the affordability of at least some privateers and distributor backed riders. Distributors have cut their budgets again this year, it looks like one has dissappeared completely and the other one who back Tony Rees is only there but for the grace of God. The Ohlins suspension that Tony is using is on long term loan from ourselves. That is the state of a market that is at its lowest level since 1962.

[malcy25]

After 16 pages and 235 posts, I think the "for's'" are missing a point.

fact: No one dispute that a set of light wieight wheels will be a performance advance and that has been the crux of most of the arguement put forward by the "fors" .
However: and the truth in reality is that MNZ said no, and most of the racers here have agreed with it for various reasons.

The "againsts "are NOT arguing against the performance increase that they will provide (they may however dispute the level provide, but will all agree they will be beneficial), but

If we all went and bought light weight wheels, NO ONE i(except the guys selling the kit wherever it is bought) is any better off performance in a comparitive sense, though our wallets will be because they'll be super lightweight!

Guys, we all know they'll provide a nice bike to ride, no question. But banging on about it and that the sky is now going to fall in because light wheels are so much better for us, won't work.....In New Zealand we have had FIM spec superbikes, open Formula 1, Formula 2, 250GP, 350GP, 500GP etc - where are they now? They disappeared up their own bum because they essentially became either irelevant, or no one could afford to run or procure the bikes anymore.

Std wheels keeps us all on a level playing field - given the relatively stock bike classes we have and the level of expenditure, to me it seems like a common sense decision. There's an old saying "Horses for Courses" that seems to apply here.

If you believe adding a set of light wheels into the mix will launch new riders into Internaitonal stardom "You're Dreamin'" to paraphrase a TV advert.

Frankly they would be better off with a new passport and a tried to Kenny Roberts ranch given that the entry level classes they WILL get into or could afford to buy a ride (100k pounds to buy a top ride in BSB supersport I hear), and they'll still be on stock rims....same in AMA, and even WORLD SUPERSPORT.

Thank youir for your time everyone. Now, as you were. Post count is probably 240.

Malcy

[Shaun]

Thanks Quasi ya tosser:Punk:


This thread has killed a few hours with huge amusement for me, hope others have enjoyed it as much

[Shaun]

SOMOONE PLEASE


How, when, who, started using Suspension as the comparism here? Was it some one that rides slow on standard suspension perhaps

Great sales man work, Rubbish another product, to promote your own

hahahahahaha Good work boys

[malcy25]

Thanks Quasi ya tosser:Punk:


This thread has killed a few hours with huge amusement for me, hope others have enjoyed it as much

Yup! (don't look now but I agreed with Shaun!)

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

What is required is Engineering Science - Facts - The Basic Facts Of Physic's.

Tell me this - Why Do Racers the World Over Use Forged Pistons, Con Rod,s Crank Shafts, wheels and such like??

I'll tell ya why!!! - Because The Increase In Strength can be by Factors of three or more, and the reduction in rotational Mass can be as much as 40+% Lower than OEM Cast Materials of the same nature - EG Steel With Steel or Alloy with Alloy of the same Grade & Type.

So the Laws of Motor Cycle Rotational Mass are the same when it comes to the Wheels - Take 6kg's out of your wheels and perhaps we can safely say you have taken 18kg's Off the Sprung Chassis.

What does the Suspension actually do??

Well its sole purpose in life is to Deal with the "SPRING WEIGHT" of the Chassis and everything on it.

Therefore - What deals with the "UN-SPRUNG" Weight of the Wheels that spin at some hideous speeds and the only control over this Rotataional Weight is through the Tyres and the Steering Geometry of the Chassis.

So when you allege and air your 'Opinion' that Lighter Wheels Have Less Significance than an Ohlins you simply express your lack of knowledge of the the Performance Dynamic's of a Motorycle Rolling Chassis and its ability to deal with the Surfaces it travels over & in the case of Raqcing Motorycles at considerable speeds.

I agree that Chassis Dynamic's as controled by your Ohlins still has to be Set Up For Each Track, but its overall performance will be greatly Enhanced by increased Track Lap Times Because of the use of Lighter Wheels with their Centre Of Mass Located as in teh Case of the Carrozzeria Forged Alloys Very Tightly Around the Axle Hub which Impacts the Moment Of Enertia of the Wheels.

Heightened Performance Comes from the Reduction of Effort (Horse Power or Kilowatts) Required to Motivate the Wheels in the first Instance and Gyroscopic Forces exerted on the front wheel when turning in are Greatly Reduced (Gives a Reduction in Tyre Wear) to enable a Higher Corner Speed with greater Safety and Precision.

Then there is the fact that the Brakes are working at a lesser effort to slow the Rotational Wheel Wieght Down which Implies that the Rate of Deceleration Effort is enhanced which one again implies that the bike will decelerate quicker meaning that you can brake later and - bingo Go Around the Corner Faster and Bingo Maybe over a 10 lapper you get to Win The Race rather than a lesser result which is what I thought Racing was all about???

Help me here but this is not the Opinion of me as the Importer - Rather it is a Statement of Physic's & Engineering Scientific Facts.

So how'se that???

Tell me then "Why should my Forged Wheels be exlcuded when Ohlins and all the other Aftermarket Performance Parts Are Not."

Dollar For Dollar if you fit my Tri-R Race Grade DOT & JAL Approved Wheels to your race bike you will get a bigger Bang for your Race Dollar in One hit than any other way. This I beleive from my knowledge of Race Suspension Parts Costs is a Fate Compli.

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion

''The sole purpose of the suspension is to deal with the spring weight of the chassis and everything on it"

Would you care to elaborate on that statement? As its only one function of the suspension. How about the not unimportant function of it applying pressure to the tyres to maximise grip? Etc etc

[White trash]

''The sole purpose of the suspension is to deal with the spring weight of the chassis and everything on it"

Would you care to elaborate on that statement? As its only one function of the suspension. How about the not unimportant function of it applying pressure to the tyres to maximise grip? Etc etc

Tell ya what else is quite awesome. All this quoting of "gyroscopic forces". If we're going to get technical (and someone else started it) there is no such thing as a gyroscopic or centrifugal "force". This was taught in 5th form physics.

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

What is required is Engineering Science - Facts - The Basic Facts Of Physic's.

Tell me this - Why Do Racers the World Over Use Forged Pistons, Con Rod,s Crank Shafts, wheels and such like??

I'll tell ya why!!! - Because The Increase In Strength can be by Factors of three or more, and the reduction in rotational Mass can be as much as 40+% Lower than OEM Cast Materials of the same nature - EG Steel With Steel or Alloy with Alloy of the same Grade & Type.

So the Laws of Motor Cycle Rotational Mass are the same when it comes to the Wheels - Take 6kg's out of your wheels and perhaps we can safely say you have taken 18kg's Off the Sprung Chassis.

What does the Suspension actually do??

Well its sole purpose in life is to Deal with the "SPRING WEIGHT" of the Chassis and everything on it.

Therefore - What deals with the "UN-SPRUNG" Weight of the Wheels that spin at some hideous speeds and the only control over this Rotataional Weight is through the Tyres and the Steering Geometry of the Chassis.

So when you allege and air your 'Opinion' that Lighter Wheels Have Less Significance than an Ohlins you simply express your lack of knowledge of the the Performance Dynamic's of a Motorycle Rolling Chassis and its ability to deal with the Surfaces it travels over & in the case of Raqcing Motorycles at considerable speeds.

I agree that Chassis Dynamic's as controled by your Ohlins still has to be Set Up For Each Track, but its overall performance will be greatly Enhanced by increased Track Lap Times Because of the use of Lighter Wheels with their Centre Of Mass Located as in teh Case of the Carrozzeria Forged Alloys Very Tightly Around the Axle Hub which Impacts the Moment Of Enertia of the Wheels.

Heightened Performance Comes from the Reduction of Effort (Horse Power or Kilowatts) Required to Motivate the Wheels in the first Instance and Gyroscopic Forces exerted on the front wheel when turning in are Greatly Reduced (Gives a Reduction in Tyre Wear) to enable a Higher Corner Speed with greater Safety and Precision.

Then there is the fact that the Brakes are working at a lesser effort to slow the Rotational Wheel Wieght Down which Implies that the Rate of Deceleration Effort is enhanced which one again implies that the bike will decelerate quicker meaning that you can brake later and - bingo Go Around the Corner Faster and Bingo Maybe over a 10 lapper you get to Win The Race rather than a lesser result which is what I thought Racing was all about???

Help me here but this is not the Opinion of me as the Importer - Rather it is a Statement of Physic's & Engineering Scientific Facts.

So how'se that???

Tell me then "Why should my Forged Wheels be exlcuded when Ohlins and all the other Aftermarket Performance Parts Are Not."

Dollar For Dollar if you fit my Tri-R Race Grade DOT & JAL Approved Wheels to your race bike you will get a bigger Bang for your Race Dollar in One hit than any other way. This I beleive from my knowledge of Race Suspension Parts Costs is a Fate Compli.

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion

And why have you singled out Ohlins? Your sponsored rider runs on a Penske and stock combination. There are a handful of other riders that use WP or works Showa. Theresa lot of K-Tech stuff in BSB, etc

[Shaun]

''The sole purpose of the suspension is to deal with the spring weight of the chassis and everything on it"

Would you care to elaborate on that statement? As its only one function of the suspension. How about the not unimportant function of it applying pressure to the tyres to maximise grip? Etc etc



Actually Robert, if some one was to fit light weight rear wheel to there Road bike, I think they would end up with more wheel spin, due to lack of weight on the road?

These light weight wheels started getting made many moons ago, when bikes, rims, chassis were shite, now that all the above has improved, it has slowed down the nessesity for them out there

If they were as great as the PR any one can read about them, would they NOT at least be on world SuperSport bikes at least, where apparently, MONEY in Not really a problem, UNLIKE here in New Zealand.

Having said that though, If the rules did allow them, I would find the money to at least test them again, it has been a few years now since I used light weight wheels, Like Carbon One's on the Britten, I was always asking for more weight in the front end, as it used to float around on the service, NOT Deffinately the wheel that was the problem, as we never got to test another option, due to the style of the Britten.

We did do a temp test of tyres on the Britten, and Tyres on a factory Ducati at Misano, same day, same tryes, same track, same amount of laps, the Britten was way less lower in temp?

Again, we thought the wheel weight option

[sugilite]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

An awefull lot of tech theory yadda yadda

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion

OK, every standard shock on your average jap superbike that nz riders use (prob over 90% of the grid) will over heat their standard shocks in a handful of laps. What percentage of standard wheels have exploded from inferior metallurgy in nz? (I'll even accept an vauge estimate from you.) At least my opinion has come from actually racing a motorcycle, as against riding a text book.

Tell you what pal, put your facts where your mouth are. Get a standard jap thou, put your wheels on and a better than average racer, do a average over 15 laps, then put the standard wheels back on and put some quality suspension in and repeat exercise...get back to us with the results. :yes: