Who causes the most crashes?

[shrub]

So who causes the most crashes? Car drivers? Mad bike riders? Dodgy roads? Or is the blame for bike crashes something that can be attributed to all of the factors?

[Katman]

So who causes the most crashes? Car drivers? Mad bike riders? Dodgy roads? Or is the blame for bike crashes something that can be attributed to all of the factors?

Obviously we'll assume you're specifically talking about motorcycle crashes.

You mention mad bike riders. Can we assume you're also including inattentive bike riders and poorly skilled bike riders?

As far as the "dodgy roads" go, surely the responsibility ultimately falls on us to ride to the conditions.

[MSTRS]

There is one leading cause for all crashes.
People.

[shrub]

Obviously we'll assume you're specifically talking about motorcycle crashes.

You mention mad bike riders. Can we assume you're also including inattentive bike riders and poorly skilled bike riders?

As far as the dodgy roads go, surely the responsibility ultimately falls on us to ride to the conditions.

No, I meant unicycle crashes. Of course I meant motorcycle crashes, and while we all need to ride to the conditions everyone has come round a corner and found unmarked roadworks, ice grit etc and had a major sphincter tightening experience.

[Katman]

No, I meant unicycle crashes. Of course I meant motorcycle crashes,

No need to get upset about it - you've just asked the question rather poorly.

[Katman]

And btw, suggesting that there is no leading cause is nothing short of burying your head in the sand.

[shrub]

No need to get upset about it - you've just asked the question rather poorly.

Sorry, would you have been happier if i had said "powered two wheeler vehicles"? Or would you have expected me to specify that they required a human rider, on NZ roads and were not remote controlled or ridden by space aliens in Uzbekistan?

[shrub]

And btw, suggesting that there is no leading cause is nothing short of burying your head in the sand.

No, it's nothing short of recognising that there is no single cause of the majority of crashes, and even when there is an acknowledged cause, that other issues influenced the crash. For example, last year I was involved in a fatal where a guy binned his bike. The offiial cause was rider inattention, but I know from having watched the whole thing unfold in front of me that there were several factors involved and if any one of them had been removed the guy concerned may well have finished his ride with a beer.

[Milts]

Surely a more relevant question would be 'serious injury/death crashes'? Because the number of new riders, inexperienced riders, or even more experienced riders who 'drop' their bike on their own at low or very low speed and just scratch paint, maybe scrape of a mirror.

I went over a whole bunch of road crash stats a few months ago and IIRC the majority were caused by the motorcyclist. This will always be the case, as motorcycles are naturally more difficult to ride than a car is to drive (I'd like to see someone highside a car...) Bikes require more effort + skill to keep stable, and require less of a change in traction to make them unstable. Once something goes wrong on a bike it is also much harder to recover from than in a car.

However, the majority of multi-vehicle accidents are caused by car drivers. While this may be due to a skill deficiency, it remains a fact that bikes are harder to spot, less predictable (can be in any part of the lane), and people don't look out for us as much as they should. To be honest the issue of motorcycle accidents is far too complicated to be boiled down into one simple 'us or them' question.

EDIT: As for dodgy roads, you need a clearer definition. Some crashes caused by 'dodgy roads' are nearly unavoidable (eg deep gravel mid corner in poor light), but some 'dodgy roads' are known to be so and crashes could be avoided by riding to the conditions. Classic example would be the road out past Makara - if you went through every corner at the speed limit you would have a very high chance of a crash, and could possibly claim it's due to the 'dodgy' road conditions - but the roads along there have never been good and regularly have rockfalls etc all over the place. Anyone pootling along should be fine or at worst damage some paint.

[Katman]

No, it's nothing short of recognising that there is no single cause of the majority of crashes,

No, it's actually just you giving people a straw to clutch at in order to steer your poll away from the result you're so dreading.

How highly scientific of you. Your esteemed professor friend would be proud.

[jeremysprite]

In my experience most bike crashes (this including offs, drops, spills) have been caused by rider error.

But maybe I'm just a terrible rider.

[shrub]

Surely a more relevant question would be 'serious injury/death crashes'? Because the number of new riders, inexperienced riders, or even more experienced riders who 'drop' their bike on their own at low or very low speed and just scratch paint, maybe scrape of a mirror.

I went over a whole bunch of road crash stats a few months ago and IIRC the majority were caused by the motorcyclist. This will always be the case, as motorcycles are naturally more difficult to ride than a car is to drive (I'd like to see someone highside a car...) Bikes require more effort + skill to keep stable, and require less of a change in traction to make them unstable. Once something goes wrong on a bike it is also much harder to recover from than in a car.

However, the majority of multi-vehicle accidents are caused by car drivers. While this may be due to a skill deficiency, it remains a fact that bikes are harder to spot, less predictable (can be in any part of the lane), and people don't look out for us as much as they should. To be honest the issue of motorcycle accidents is far too complicated to be boiled down into one simple 'us or them' question.

Absolutely, and that's my argument. Katman et al are convinced that bike riders are the problem, whereas I believe they are merely part of the problem, and that trying to say "bike riders are mostly at fault" is as futile as saying "car drivers are mostly at fault'. If we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we need to look at all the factors at play and stop trying to assign blame.

As an aside, where does inexperience/lack of skill come in? Is it Johnny GN's fault that he doesn't know how to counter steer? or that the back brake is not his best friend when he comes into a corner overcooked? Or if we were to assign fault, would it in fact be the fault of the legislative authorities that think being able to ride around cones in a warehouse means a rider has the skill to ride a bike in traffic?

[Katman]

Absolutely, and that's my argument. Katman et al are convinced that bike riders are the problem, whereas I believe they are merely part of the problem, and that trying to say "bike riders are mostly at fault" is as futile as saying "car drivers are mostly at fault'. If we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we need to look at all the factors at play and stop trying to assign blame.

I don't think anyone (least of all me) has ever suggested that accidents are the result of only one factor.

But it is very important to identify the leading factor within accidents, as that is where the greatest improvement can be made.

[shrub]

No, it's actually just you giving people a straw to clutch at in order to steer your poll away from the result you're so dreading.

How highly scientific of you. Your esteemed professor friend would be proud.

I hardly think a poll on KB could be called scientific. If I'm looking for any result it's to counter your argument from another thread that most motorcyclists think car drivers are the problem, and that the polling is reasonably evenly split between motorcyclists only and a range of causes suggests you were wrong, and in fact most of us take responsibility and are not idiots.

[p.dath]

There is one leading cause for all crashes.
People.

I thought you were going to say "motorcycles", but people is good. :lol:

[bogan]

Absolutely, and that's my argument. Katman et al are convinced that bike riders are the problem, whereas I believe they are merely part of the problem, and that trying to say "bike riders are mostly at fault" is as futile as saying "car drivers are mostly at fault'. If we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we need to look at all the factors at play and stop trying to assign blame.

bollocks, if we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we have to fix the factors at play, looking at em requires you assign blame in order to get the most common cause etc. And regardless of what looking at them turns up we are the easiest to change, we are the minority (so most likely to be forced to change), and we stand to gain the most by riding better.

[shrub]

bollocks, if we want to address motorcycle safety effectively we have to fix the factors at play, looking at em requires you assign blame in order to get the most common cause etc. And regardless of what looking at them turns up we are the easiest to change, we are the minority (so most likely to be forced to change), and we stand to gain the most by riding better.

Good point, but how do we ride better? And my position is not that we shouldn't avoid looking at the cause, but rather that we should recognise that for most crashes there are in fact a cluster of causes and that we need to address all of them, iespecially rider skill and attitude. I have managed to avoid hurting myself or my bike since 1984 because I've picked up a few tricks over the years, but I'm lucky.

A good example happened a few months ago. I was following an SUV down a suburban street and it slowed down unexpectedly. The logical thing to do would have been to overtake, but I know that even though SUVs are a little hard to control they don't just change speed for no reason, so I dropped back. Sure enough the blonde bob driver turned right into the driveway she was looking for without indicating. If I had been passing I would have been under her wheels, and it would have been her fault for failing to indicate. Or would it have been my fault for not knowing that people do stupid shit when they're on the road? I think the crash would have been caused by the driver failing to indicate and me not having the smarts to know cars don't just slow down by themselves. A combination of factors were at play that in another situation would have been a crash.

Ultimately my safety was decided by my experience, but I don't take credit for that and we can't impose experience. When my son started riding he had several offs that were all the fault of another road user and one that was entirely his own silly fault, and he learned from them. Was it his "fault" that he didn't know people do stupid shit?

[Tunahunter]

So who causes the most crashes? Car drivers? Mad bike riders? Dodgy roads? Or is the blame for bike crashes something that can be attributed to all of the factors?

Its kinda obvious eh?

[Katman]

Good point, but how do we ride better? And my position is not that we shouldn't avoid looking at the cause, but rather that we should recognise that for most crashes there are in fact a cluster of causes and that we need to address all of them, including rider skill and attitude.

And I have always said that if we are seen to be seriously addressing our contribution towards motorcycle accidents then we may have far greater success in getting the other issues (such as roading problems) addressed.

[Virago]

I hardly think a poll on KB could be called scientific. If I'm looking for any result it's to counter your argument from another thread that most motorcyclists think car drivers are the problem, and that the polling is reasonably evenly split between motorcyclists only and a range of causes suggests you were wrong, and in fact most of us take responsibility and are not idiots.

If you do a search, you'll find that this has been covered ad nauseum on KB.

The basic statistics are (roughly):

- 35% of motorcycle accidents are the result of the biker falling off by themselves - no-one else involved or to blame.

- 35% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the car driver.

- 30% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the biker.

The big mistake is to compare the last two percentages, and declare that "cars cause most accidents". In actual fact, bikers are responsible for 65% of the total - roughly two-thirds.

[bogan]

Good point, but how do we ride better? And my position is not that we shouldn't avoid looking at the cause, but rather that we should recognise that for most crashes there are in fact a cluster of causes and that we need to address all of them, including rider skill and attitude.

how, training and change in attitudes will go a long way. Your position was obvious by your leading poll options, if you are comparing dominant causes you can't have an option that isencompasses the others, as it will always be applicable in more situations and thus invalidate the poll.

[MSTRS]

If you do a search, you'll find that this has been covered ad nauseum on KB.

The basic statistics are (roughly):

- 35% of motorcycle accidents are the result of the biker falling off by themselves - no-one else involved or to blame.

- 35% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the car driver.

- 30% of mtorcycle accidents are car versus bike, where the bulk of the blame is attributed to the biker.

The big mistake is to compare the last two percentages, and declare that "cars cause most accidents". In actual fact, bikers are responsible for 65% of the total - roughly two-thirds.

Apply the same 'stats' to cars...
In this instance, car vs bike is relatively rare, therefore roughly 95% of all accident types involving cars are the fault of the driver (of at least one of those cars).
Motorcycle stats look bad, since we don't walk away so readily. We can improve that by riding defensively and wearing appropriate gear. Car drivers could also improve dramatically, by being more observant amongst other things.

As I said earlier, people cause crashes.

[shrub]

how, training and change in attitudes will go a long way. Your position was obvious by your leading poll options, if you are comparing dominant causes you can't have an option that isencompasses the others, as it will always be applicable in more situations and thus invalidate the poll.

If this was a scientific survey, yes, you're absolutely right. I think if anything I wanted to discount the belief that motorcyclists blame everyone else, which I have done, and maybe I shouldn't have had the fourth option, but I put it in because I am convinced that motorcycle safety is a complex issue that cannot be given one prevailing cause.

I agree about training and attitudes though, but how do we do that? I have done several advanced courses over the last few years, and every one of them has majored on teaching me how to ride round corners faster. How the hell is that making me better equipped for traffic, shitty roads, tiredness etc?

Attitudes are even harder to change because motorcyclists are notoriously individualistic and rebellious - if we weren't we'd all drive Priuses, and there is an entrenched culture where riding the Akaroa GP at 398 kmh is a goal to aspire to, and being overtaken is a slight on one's manhood.

[Katman]

If this was a scientific survey, yes, you're absolutely right. I think if anything I wanted to discount the belief that motorcyclists blame everyone else,

I would suggest that if you had posted the same poll back in October when the ACC issue first blew up, the results would have been very different.

Far from being upset that you have 'proven me wrong' I'm gaining great heart from the way the poll is currently standing. (And if you hadn't included the pathetic fourth opinion it would be looking even better).

[bogan]

If this was a scientific survey, yes, you're absolutely right. I think if anything I wanted to discount the belief that motorcyclists blame everyone else, which I have done, and maybe I shouldn't have had the fourth option, but I put it in because I am convinced that motorcycle safety is a complex issue that cannot be given one prevailing cause.

I agree about training and attitudes though, but how do we do that? I have done several advanced courses over the last few years, and every one of them has majored on teaching me how to ride round corners faster. How the hell is that making me better equipped for traffic, shitty roads, tiredness etc?

Attitudes are even harder to change because motorcyclists are notoriously individualistic and rebellious - if we weren't we'd all drive Priuses, and there is an entrenched culture where riding the Akaroa GP at 398 kmh is a goal to aspire to, and being overtaken is a slight on one's manhood.

still seems leading, why not a poll with our fault vs somebody else fault then?

never been to a training day myself, but focusing on emergency braking, and emergency evasion would be a good idea, and probably not too difficult to teach either.

Thats a common misconception, bikers are just normal people who love to ride, those you listed are the 1%ers, though it could be as much as 10%ers at times.

[SMOKEU]

One of the main reasons why the roads are so dangerous in NZ is because of the shocking state of our roads in comparison to other developed countries.

[shrub]

still seems leading, why not a poll with our fault vs somebody else fault then?

never been to a training day myself, but focusing on emergency braking, and emergency evasion would be a good idea, and probably not too difficult to teach either.

Thats a common misconception, bikers are just normal people who love to ride, those you listed are the 1%ers, though it could be as much as 10%ers at times.

I'm not sure that's going to tell us anything because fault is not a binary. The results show that a significant percentage of poll participants agree that there is no one dominant "fault", and that all the factors are at play.

[Katman]

The results show that a significant percentage of poll participants agree that there is no one dominant "fault", and that all the factors are at play.

Like I said - a straw to clutch at.

[dipshit]

Good point, but how do we ride better?

By not riding around with our heads up our own arse thinking our shit doesn't stink and everything is always someone else's fault... for a start.

[bogan]

I'm not sure that's going to tell us anything because fault is not a binary. The results show that a significant percentage of poll participants agree that there is no one dominant "fault", and that all the factors are at play.

It is true fault is not a binary, but you coud have done percentage options and averaged them, ie 100% biker fault, 40% biker fault etc, which would answer your question. As it is it's still leading, you have more answer groups than your question needs, and these groups overlap the answers you need. So you can't actually answer the question you want to know.

[shrub]

It is true fault is not a binary, but you coud have done percentage options and averaged them, ie 100% biker fault, 40% biker fault etc, which would answer your question. As it is it's still leading, you have more answer groups than your question needs, and these groups overlap the answers you need. So you can't actually answer the question you want to know.

That would have been a better approach, I agree. Is it possible to change polls once they're underway?

[bogan]

That would have been a better approach, I agree. Is it possible to change polls once they're underway?

don't think so, cos you'd have to delete all the old choices, get a mod to delete this thread and start over perhaps?

[Katman]

That would have been a better approach, I agree. Is it possible to change polls once they're underway?

Fuck me, I thought you said you were in marketing!

[T.W.R]

:zzzz: like reinventing the wheel :slap:

PEOPLE cause crashes period & the majority of contributing factors involved in any crash have a human hand somewhere along the line.

[Nutter34]

Women are the cause of most accidents.

[DEATH_INC.]

As a fairly high crash rate rider, I personally stand at about 50/50 on the car vs bike thing.....don't think I've ever had a crash from dodgy roads, close a few times, but can't remember ever crashing from it.
Out of interest though, I don't believe any of the accidents involving another vehicle were caused by me, and they usually involved a big white van picking me up, where all the others I could usually ride away from.

[Coldrider]

Car drivers, risks should be mitigated by experienced riders.
Bad roads, are a challenge and welcomed compared to tarmac cruises.
Riders, I've seen some absolute retards on two wheels lately.
my 2.00775 cents worth.

[Wannabiker]

How can a road cause a crash...it is an inanimate object. The crash is caused by the rider not riding to the conditions appropriate to that road. Nothing else.

Many many years ago, I trained as a defensive driving instructor (1986). That course taught several useful techniques for "accident" avoidance.

1. Drive (ride) at a speed that you can stop within the length of lane visible to you on a 2 lane road, and 1/2 the length of lane visible on a single lane road.

This simple tool should allow anyone to react to changing road condition, unforseen obstacles.

[Kickaha]

1. Drive (ride) at a speed that you can stop within the length of lane visible to you on a 2 lane road, and 1/2 the length of lane visible on a single lane road.

This simple tool should allow anyone to react to changing road condition, unforseen obstacles.

I think you're forgetting they would actually have to be paying attention and looking for them

[Wannabiker]

Well of course...far easier to blame the road.....

[carver]

the MFSC have caused a few

[2wheeldrifter]

the MFSC have caused a few


So did your mothers...

:)

[Voltaire]

One of the main reasons why the roads are so dangerous in NZ is because of the shocking state of our roads in comparison to other developed countries.

Other developed countries also have:
compulsory third party insurance
sliding scale of vehicle registration....more power= higher cost.
no cheap jap imports
harder licence testing
more speed cameras
etc......


Ask your MP to campaign for these so more money can be spent on improved roads :innocent:

[CHR1S]

Dont fully follow how "cheap jap imports" cause more accidents..methinks hitting a Mazda Familia vs a local assembled Ford Laser would hurt about the same. (f=m.a and all) I think a major improvement would come from "eductaing" the number of riders who think a snow jacket and work boots let alone jandals make great riding attire...

[Katman]

Dont fully follow how "cheap jap imports" cause more accidents..methinks hitting a Mazda Familia vs a local assembled Ford Laser would hurt about the same. (f=m.a and all) I think a major improvement would come from "eductaing" the number of riders who think a snow jacket and work boots let alone jandals make great riding attire...

Trouble is, no amount of decent riding gear avoids accidents either.

Having what's between the ears switched on at all times is likely to have more of an effect.

[CHR1S]

Very true.....at least decent gear goes a long way to reducing the severity of the injury's, and the ensuing costs that go with rehab. I just cringe when I see a very high % of riders ill equipped, particularly amongst commuters who are more likely to have a "im late for work" or "that was a hard weekend" switched off moment...

Disclaimer - not implying commuters are muppets or more likely to crash haha - just stating from experience and what I see...