Crash Poll - Take 2 [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

imdying

30th July 2010, 14:29

Take away the rider, the car driver and the motorcycle and the road ain't going to do much at all.

Take away the rider, the car driver and the road and the motorcycle's just going to sit there.But that's the point... take away the rider, definitely no crash. Take away the others, you can still crash just fine.

rachprice

30th July 2010, 14:32

Yes that is indeed his point!

Why not extend this to car drivers who have accidents as well, personal responsibility for everyone

Katman

30th July 2010, 14:38

The poll is asking, in all motorcycle accidents, which is the most prevalent of all the governing factors.

(Bearing in mind, motorcycle accidents may contain one, or more, or all of those factors).

BMWST?

30th July 2010, 14:39

Not really.

Take away the rider, the car driver and the motorcycle and the road ain't going to do much at all.

Take away the rider, the car driver and the road and the motorcycle's just going to sit there.
incorrect if a motorcycle is left to its own devices it will always fall over,and in itself this is one of the biggest causes of motorcyclists injuries.They are inherently unstable

Katman

30th July 2010, 14:39

Crasherfromwayback

30th July 2010, 14:46

Not when they're sitting on their side-stand.

Unless they're parked downhill like I see so many knobends do!

onearmedbandit

30th July 2010, 14:53

Not when they're sitting on their side-stand.

Unless it's a Ducati with the self-retracting side-stand.

PrincessBandit

30th July 2010, 16:10

Unless they're parked downhill like I see so many knobends do!

Hahaha, now let's see. Ok, it's downhill, not in gear, not with front wheel against anything like a curb or a rock or some such obstacle. Then yeah, I suppose it could fall over all by itself.

Parking facing the "wrong" way is an easy noob mistake to make. However, they should learn from the first time. Some people are just very sloooooow learners. Some never learn at all.
But I think it would still be safe to say that the rider is likely to remain the key factor of a bike falling over of it's own accord through dodgy parking skills.

Oh, unless some malicious prick comes along and pushes it over.....

BMWST?

30th July 2010, 16:21

Not when they're sitting on their side-stand.

but it requires human intervention to put side stand down.

BMWST?

30th July 2010, 16:21

Unless it's a Ducati with the self-retracting side-stand.
or a BMW :yes:

Maha

30th July 2010, 16:39

'Which is the major influencing factor in motorcycle accidents'?

To much reading and not enough riding.

Toaster

31st July 2010, 20:27

personal responsibility for everyone

Now thats a novel idea!

Rogue Rider

31st July 2010, 20:41

Not really.

Take away the rider, the car driver and the motorcycle and the road ain't going to do much at all.

Take away the rider, the car driver and the road and the motorcycle's just going to sit there.

This is good, shows a distinction of what people are thinking. Good post.

davebullet

31st July 2010, 23:10

I ticked rider, but if I had the option I would have ticked "his mother". After all, if the rider wasn't born then he wouldn't have been able to crash so it's her fault.

Lurch

31st July 2010, 23:13

I couldn't see an option for 'Katman' so I just picked 'Rider' instead.

Woodman

31st July 2010, 23:16

What is this poll supposed to achieve??

Katman

1st August 2010, 08:47

What is this poll supposed to achieve??

World peace.

Woodman

1st August 2010, 15:17

World peace.

And the winner of Miss KB is........Katman:yes:

Katman

1st August 2010, 15:19

And the winner of Miss KB is........Katman:yes:

I forgot to add that I want to remove all the flies from the starving babies eyes.

shrub

1st August 2010, 16:05

gravity. If there was no such thing as gravity bikes would just float into the sky and drift into eternity without hurting anyone.

Katman, you're a twat. I know you think that motorcyclist behaviour is the sole cause of crashes, but even the most responsible and highly skilled rider faces risk every time they get on their bike - if I'm sitting on my sensible BMW 650 wearing my safe flouro vest and safe white helmet, and the twat coming up behind me is too busy texting to see me and hits me, is it still my fault?

Or if I ride carefully round a corner at the recommended speed (still wearing my high vis kit, but this time on an even more sensible bike like a CB250), and I hit a patch of unmarked ice grit, an oil spill or a tourist on the wrong side of the road and wipe out, is that my fault too?

What you forget is that we have to take the role of other road users and of the road environment into account because they play a major part in most crashes. If we ignore them we're completely wasting our time, and if we listen to you the only crashes that will be prevented will be the small amount that happen to responsible riders that are entirely their fault, because the incompetent and irresponsible riders will pay no attention to any safety message; and it is my belief that they are the people who have most biker at fault crashes.

What you need to learn (and you won't) is that motorcycle safety is heavily influenced by rider skill and behaviour, other road users, road surface, design and furniture and by legislation. The majorityh of crashes may have a primary cause, but all of these factors influence the outcome.

Katman

1st August 2010, 16:11

What you need to learn (and you won't) is that motorcycle safety is heavily influenced by rider skill and behaviour, other road users, road surface, design and furniture and by legislation. The majorityh of crashes may have a primary cause, but all of these factors influence the outcome.

So therefore, the greatest gain we can make towards improving our lot in motorcycling is addressing the factors that we have greatest control over - i.e. ourselves.

2wheeldrifter

1st August 2010, 16:13

So therefore, the greatest gain we can make towards improving our lot in motorcycling is addressing the factors that we have greatest control over - ourselves.

Agreed :yes:

Maha

1st August 2010, 16:13

So therefore, the greatest gain we can make towards improving our lot in motorcycling is addressing the factors that we have greatest control over - ourselves.

YES!......:yes:

shrub

1st August 2010, 16:20

So therefore, the greatest gain we can make towards improving our lot in motorcycling is addressing the factors that we have greatest control over - i.e. ourselves.

But we cannot ignore the other factors. If we don't recognise that a significant percentage of crashes are caused by other road users and by the road environment we're sticking our heads in the sand. If I don't set out every day expecting other road users to do stupid and dangerous shit, and if I don't expect gravel in the middle of the corner; I'm dead.

jack_hamma

1st August 2010, 16:30

But we cannot ignore the other factors. If we don't recognise that a significant percentage of crashes are caused by other road users and by the road environment we're sticking our heads in the sand. If I don't set out every day expecting other road users to do stupid and dangerous shit, and if I don't expect gravel in the middle of the corner; I'm dead.

So therefore, the greatest gain we can make towards improving our lot in motorcycling is addressing the factors that we have greatest control over - i.e. ourselves.

Both are right in my eyes, it's up to the rider to be as vigilant and educated with motorcycle riding as he or she can be, that alone would surely cut the death rate on bikes etc?

True other factors after we have done all we can are out of our control, we can only do so much, but that little we do do does help alot :)

Katman

1st August 2010, 16:30

If I don't set out every day expecting other road users to do stupid and dangerous shit, and if I don't expect gravel in the middle of the corner; I'm
dead.

That's right dumbarse - factoring in those points is addressing the way that we approach our motorcycling.

shrub

1st August 2010, 16:49

That's right dumbarse - factoring in those points is addressing the way that we approach our motorcycling.

What I keep trying to get through to you is that I actually agree with most of what you say (is that what makes me a dumbarse); but I believe that we ignore the risks presented by external factors at our cost, and I don't see that we should bend over and take it. I know that the work done by a number of motorcyclists, including Charley Lamb, has influenced ACC to the point where they are planning a campaign targeting car drivers about motorcycle safety.

My position is that it's up to me to look after my own safety, and I do so just like i don't play with loaded firearms or light matches in gas station forecourts, but i also believe that it is not OK for the role of other stakeholders to be ignored. If other people place me at risk, then why shouldn't I get upset and demand something be done about it? Why is the only valid response a passive acceptance?

Katman

1st August 2010, 17:31

but I believe that we ignore the risks presented by external factors at our cost, and I don't see that we should bend over and take it.

Who ever said we should ignore them?

Factor them in and ride accordingly.

shrub

1st August 2010, 18:10

Who ever said we should ignore them?

Factor them in and ride accordingly.

No, that's bending over and assuming the position. I don't take kindly to being fucked over and never have, especially when it come to my motorcycle and my safety. If I found some arsewipe planning to vandalise my bike he'd learn a big old lesson very quickly, so I'm not going to sit back and accept road conditions and behaviour from other road users that place my life and bike at risk. You may, but I won't.

Katman

1st August 2010, 19:08

No, that's bending over and assuming the position. I don't take kindly to being fucked over and never have, especially when it come to my motorcycle and my safety. If I found some arsewipe planning to vandalise my bike he'd learn a big old lesson very quickly, so I'm not going to sit back and accept road conditions and behaviour from other road users that place my life and bike at risk. You may, but I won't.

Nobody's going to listen to compliants about road conditions if they're made by those who are not alive to be able to make the complaints.

shrub

1st August 2010, 19:44

Nobody's going to listen to compliants about road conditions if they're made by those who are not alive to be able to make the complaints.

And even less people will listen to complaints by people who don't say or do anything. You seem to struggle to understand that it's not an either/or situation. One can ride intelligently, responsibly and carefully AND raise the issue of the external factors that impact on our freedom to ride safely.

Scary concept, hey?

Katman

1st August 2010, 19:47

And even less people will listen to complaints by people who don't say or do anything. You seem to struggle to understand that it's not an either/or situation. One can ride intelligently, responsibly and carefully AND raise the issue of the external factors that impact on our freedom to ride safely.

Scary concept, hey?

I have no problem understanding that concept.

But in order to be listened to seriously you have to be seen as rather more than just a whiney bitch intent on blaming all your ills on other people.

mashman

1st August 2010, 19:53

or a BMW :yes:

or an Aprilia on a windy day in Wellie :no::no::no::crybaby:

p.dath

1st August 2010, 20:02

incorrect if a motorcycle is left to its own devices it will always fall over,and in itself this is one of the biggest causes of motorcyclists injuries.They are inherently unstable

Like any inverted pendulum, it will only be unstable for a short period of time. Either it will sit on its side stand and be stable, or fall over and be stable. Either way it will rapidly become stable.

p.dath

1st August 2010, 20:09

'Which is the major influencing factor in motorcycle accidents'?

To much reading and not enough riding.
Touche. Lack of rider education is probably the biggest factor in rider error. If riders knew more they would probably make less mistakes ...

gravity. If there was no such thing as gravity bikes would just float into the sky and drift into eternity without hurting anyone.

Katman, you're a twat. I know you think that motorcyclist behaviour is the sole cause of crashes, but even the most responsible and highly skilled rider faces risk every time they get on their bike - if I'm sitting on my sensible BMW 650 wearing my safe flouro vest and safe white helmet, and the twat coming up behind me is too busy texting to see me and hits me, is it still my fault?

Assigning fault is pointless, as in this case you will still be injured. Who cares who's fault it was.

The more constructive point of view is that if you had observed the driver TXTing, and taken action to move yourself out of danger, you wouldn't get hurt.

Katman advocates situational awareness. I 100% agree with him. I don't care who did what wrong, I just don't want to get injured. A really good way for me to avoid getting hurt is to be very aware of all the dangers around me.

Now some people put assign greater risk to some factors than others. That's fine. Its personal choice. Dare I say it. Personal responsibility.

p.dath

1st August 2010, 20:13

gravity.

Let me re-dress this one. Gravity is not the greatest factor.

Most motorcycle "accidents" happen during daylight hours. So does that make daylight a key factor in accidents?

Most motorcycle accidents happen on motorcycles with tyres. So would removing the tyres off all motorcycles stop motorcycle accidents?

Just because something is happening at the same time does not make it a factor.

shrub

1st August 2010, 21:05

But in order to be listened to seriously you have to be seen as rather more than just a whiney bitch intent on blaming all your ills on other people.

Then why are you intent on blaming all the problems of motorcycle safety on motorcyclists? Yes, we have to ride safely, and it's a self selection process there where people who don't soon fall over, but we're not the only ones on the road. I know of changes that will happen that will impact positively on our safety because a few people have got off their arses and done something about the other factors, instead of just sitting back and complaining about motorcyclists.

Banditbandit

2nd August 2010, 09:01

So therefore, the greatest gain we can make towards improving our lot in motorcycling is addressing the factors that we have greatest control over - i.e. ourselves.

Who the fuck suggested that was what we wanted to do !!!

Katman

2nd August 2010, 09:05

Who the fuck suggested that was what we wanted to do !!!

If we don't address those issue you can be sure that we won't have seen the last of the adverse attention that TPTB have been directing towards us.

Banditbandit

2nd August 2010, 09:09

If we don't address those issue you can be sure that we won't have seen the last of the adverse attention that TPTB have been directing towards us.

Mate ... we've been getting attention ever since Daimler and Maybach came up with the idea of bikes ... in the eyes of society we're an anti-social bunch of Larrikans ... and some of us actually like it that way ...

Get over it or get a car ...

Katman

2nd August 2010, 09:12

Mate ... we've been getting attention ever since Daimler and Maybach came up with the idea of bikes ... in the eyes of society we're an anti-social bunch of Larrikans ... and some of us actually like it that way ...

Some of us want motorcycling to have a future.

If we leave it to the likes of you we'll all be in cars before too much longer.

Tunahunter

2nd August 2010, 09:42

Its the sudden stop

Banditbandit

2nd August 2010, 10:07

Some of us want motorcycling to have a future.

If we leave it to the likes of you we'll all be in cars before too much longer.

Yeah yeah .. hasn't happened in 100 years ... And if it's your future for bikes ... then forget it ...

_Shrek_

2nd August 2010, 11:20

I put car driver, then Mrs S said pointed out some thing which made me think i should have put rider, over the last 17 years I've done 517k approx in that time I've had 2 off's, one that smashed my ankle & broke my leg, doing 15 kph on our drive way at 5:30 am, drive way 15% down hill rutted, hit a rock the size of a tennis ball did the tank slap..... bike ok :clap:
the next off hit a bad diesel spill.... walk away bike right off :crybaby:

rider fault?

when I lived in (Auckland)for a few years I was riding home going up Wairu rd towards Albany in the wet, traffic heavy when a car decided to pull out of a side road, I had no where to go except into oncoming traffic, got around him with out being cleaned up but he hit the back of my bike breaking the indercator,
got off bike & while I was about to lay hands & use the five fold minstry on the citizen a voice behind me said I'll deal with mr.... turned around with citizen half out the window to see a very large :Police: standing there, cop heard citizen say your on a bike your're going to give way

rider fault?

HenryDorsetCase

2nd August 2010, 15:07

Which is the major influencing factor in motorcycle accidents?

Poll Fail: no option E

E: other:

If other, please explain:

Answer: supernatural forces. Obviously.

HenryDorsetCase

2nd August 2010, 15:11

Some of us want motorcycling to have a future.

If we leave it to the likes of you we'll all be in cars before too much longer.

I'm in love with my car. Its got a heater and CD player, and four wheel drive and the wagon part is like the worlds biggest pocket. Might need that? put it in your pocket. Stopping at the offie or the shops? pop that in your pocket. carry sporting goods, crystal meth or stolen property: pocket. MAKING crystal meth? Here's a pocket size kit.

yup, cars are great.

Conquiztador

2nd August 2010, 17:56

We have a new category:

A "Poll-Troll". lol :clap:

Viscount Montgomery

4th August 2010, 16:57

Bike crashes -No 1 would have to be inexperience. that's inexperience in handling a bike, inexperience at reading traffic, inexperience in riding bumpy twisty secondary roads.

Naivety in thinking that if the road is tar-seal with a white line down the middle then everything will be safe and cozy and how DARE there be gravel or bumps or debris mid-corner, the council keeps all roads pristine and hazard-free 24 hours a day don't they? And how DARE other road users cross the centreline mid-corner and force you to take evasive action. Fuck, you were 'in the right' not them.. it's just not fair, you're not the one who fucked-up...

Naivety in thinking they can ride thru intersections safely and it will be all warm-fuzzies because cage drivers HAVE to keep a good look out for motorcycles and can't POSSIBLY pull into the path of oncoming bikes. You've got your warm-fuzzies blaze-yellow jacket and headlight on, fuck, that HAS to save your arse from that sort of thing doesn't it? Naivety in trusting other road users.

No2 would be the ignorant shit-for-brains riders who think they know it all, and ride like fuckwits thinking they're too experienced to fuck-up. Plenty of wankers on this site who fit that description. Actually No2 is probably close to being the No1 cause of crashes, and it's the No1 cause of fucken trouble for every one else who rides a motorbike.

No3 probably the awesomely large number of equally shit-for-brains cage drivers out on the road who drive in an ignorant dimwit retarded un-aware zone. Oblivious to any bloody thing happening around them.

No4 is likely just plain simple BAD-FUCKING-LUCK.