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rogson
31st May 2005, 12:09
The announcement of BMW's HP-2 prompts my two cents worth on what constitutes a practical adventure bike.

Looking at the picture of the HP-2 the first thing I notice is the exhaust pipes are routed around the outside bottom corner of the engine. Have they been put there as rock and stump deflectors? - because thats what they'll be doing if the bike is taken off-road. On the same issue the new Yamaha dual purpose bike (XT660 I think?) is even dumber - from the picture I've seen the pipe is routed under the engine!

Also the width of the engine and its low mounting on the HP-2 means it can't help but come into contact with terraferma when the bike falls over - and believe me if you go off-road it is going to fall over at some stage.

I have a Suzuki Freewind that has been punted 2-up on many adventure rides in both North and South Island. To make it work dirt/off road I have stiffened-up the suspension both ends, changed to a smaller front sprocket and made-up a raised front mudguard arrangement so I can change the standard 19" front wheel to a 21" (the DR650 front wheel has the same hub and slots straight-on). I use 80/20 dirt/road tyres for trips involving significant dirt/off road riding and road tyres (and the 19" front wheel) for highway and in town. Its agility, above average ground clearance and good bottom-end torque make it a good kerb jumper/commuter.

The total cost of the bike (bought new in 98) and mods has been about $9500.00 - thousands less than price of the more glamorous european competition. It has been absolutely bullet-proof reliable and when it falls over (which it seems to enjoy doing now and again) it doesn't wipe-out any expensive bits. To my mind its a practical adventure bike.

Paul in NZ
31st May 2005, 12:12
Hmm.. I like your thinking.. Got any pictures of the beast?

Cheers

Motu
31st May 2005, 12:33
As you can see in the HP2 thread the bike is being put to some serious use,real world testing before it is released to the public,like KTM did with the 950.I'm sure if the exhaust is munted everytime it goes out then that would be put in order....these guys are racing the thing,they want to win,not sit on the sidelines because of some obvious fault.Look for high pipes on the production HP2? Big fat cans on the side are what the public wants it seems.

Suxuki's of the early 70s had the fat 2 stroke chamber under the bike,I rode them off road and don't recall moaning about the exhaust or mangling one up.My TS400 had the same set up and the only problem was when it fell of in a race,launched the bike into the air and then nearly took my head off as it spun like a boomerang.These day's we would sue Suzuki....

But you are right,it just seems a silly thing to do on the XT660 - maybe they realised that they don't really go off road anyway....for the use intended it would do the job I'd say.

ManDownUnder
31st May 2005, 12:37
Hey chap -as has been said - good approach to measuring up how useful a bike will be (or whould thjat be how long till it get's bits broken off...)

Pics would be good, and welcome!
MDU

merv
31st May 2005, 12:57
Practical adventure bike is a problem I have grappled with since I decided it was time to move on from trusty XR Hondas. Initially I thought a BMW F650 might be OK when they came out in 1994, but me I am a short arse and after seeing the bigger bikes in action on the early adventure rides around 1992/1994 decided no I wouldn't buy one. Why? Too heavy when similar to a mid to large road bike in weight. How would I pick one up or pull it out of a bog at the bottom of a steep hill?

So in 94 I decided I would buy the VFR for the road and stick to a proper dirt bike for dirt and adventure rides. In 98 I succumbed to old age and thought it was time for electric start so I bought a DR250R because there were no electric XRs, until now. Problem was the DR never lived up to my expectations after the Hondas. The chassis was great (except on thick gravel) and it wasn't too heavy, but it was a typical Suzuki as in made like a parts bin special and the engine wasn't good for its purpose. It was too buzzy - like lacking in flywheel and jerky on and off throttle including too much driveline snatch making it a bitch to ride on slippery mud or gravel roads. The chassis problem on gravel roads was I think it was a bit front heavy so it speed wobbled quite badly under power on straight thick gravel roads, not something the Hondas ever did.

I guess I could have chased mods on the Suzuki but in the end after looking around I bought the WR250F last year. (Blue Wing refused to bring the electric start XR250L into NZ from 96 but have finally done so now.) WR is light and bloody fast and as straight as die on gravel roads. I got it just before the Pukemanu ride last year and at the end of that ride I had enjoyed it that much I felt like going around again. The issue with the WR though is how long will the engine last doing adventure rides? Its a racing engine not a long lifer like an XR or DR.

We bought my wife a DR650 but she won't be doing hard out dirt stuff on it but that isn't a bad adventure bike on rides like the Pukemanu.

So to me a practical adventure bike is one you can ride without effort and without breaking it - for me that is really a trail bike as I like to do some of the more rugged stuff too.

Paul in NZ
31st May 2005, 13:33
Merv

What would you recommend as a cheap 2 up gravel road bike capable of touring (luggage?)....

Cheers

merv
31st May 2005, 13:50
Merv

What would you recommend as a cheap 2 up gravel road bike capable of touring (luggage?)....

Cheers

Cheapest probably is the DR650 which is why I bought my wife one from Trash late last year. We've fitted a Ventura rack to it but two up that means one bag only so you might want to look at pannier style bags for two up. Power is OK they will top out around 160km/hr. Stock gearing is too high and even one tooth down on the front it is very high geared for a dirt bike but OK on gravel roads. The nice thing about the DR is the adjustable rear suspension (pull out the bolt and move it on the shock) which lowers the seat height to 840mm. Just fit the shorter sidestand as well.

Motu
31st May 2005, 14:04
Yeah,the DR650 is the most serious of the not serious dual purpose bikes,compared to the XT and KLR at least.If you are not doing anything more than gravel check out a Transalp,built from the early 80s to the present day it's a well proven design.Prices are a bit premium,but ride one and you'll fall in love,they are a really nice bike to ride and ideal for your purpose.

rogson
31st May 2005, 14:22
Merv, Paul and others

Looks like I've started something here.

Regarding a picture, the bike currently has the 19" wheel on, but I suspect you want a picture of it with the 21" wheel. I will see if I have one, otherwise you will have to wait until the next time I change it over.

Regarding using a proper dirt-bike in the dirt, I absolutely agree - use a serious dirt-bike when solo (I do myself). But my adventure riding has been two-up and has included extended highway sessions. The fact is serious dirt-bikes can't accomodate two people and are at best only tolerable on the road. I find even the softer versions (like the DR650) are cramped and uncomfortable two-up for anything but short spells.

Regarding the suitability of the HP-2 and XT660 for the dirt - of course they will do the job - but their design puts certain components at higher risk than other designs, and from my experience it eventually gets found-out.

Paul in NZ
31st May 2005, 15:03
Dang

Should have bought that Moto Guzzi Quota when I had the chance eh! :niceone:

Cheers

merv
31st May 2005, 16:34
Yeah in the end the whole thing gets down to exactly what do you want to do with the bike? Its personal preference and I prefer a hard out dirt bike, but no way could I two-up on the WR. The DR650 we have ridden two-up quite a bit and while comfort is better than on a smaller trail bike it certainly wouldn't be like a big BMW or something like that. My wife is taller than me and on the back she finds her knees bent a bit hard because the pegs are reasonably high. She has far more space on the back of the VFR road bike. Our preference though is not to have anything heavier than the DR650 which is 147kg dry because at some stage you always end up picking dirt bikes up off the ground. Others obviously prefer the heavier bikes and I guess hope like hell they don't drop them. Having been on many adventure rides one of my roles has been helping many a person with a heavy bike pick the damn thing up after they come to grief. Those people don't enjoy the rides so much. Bikes like Transalps and F650s (which weigh closer to 200kg these days) are definitely great bikes for fast open gravel roads and the tarseal in between.

So again what is a practical adventure bike? Easy - the one that you think suits what you want to do with it not what I would want to do with it.

rogson
31st May 2005, 16:44
Dang

Should have bought that Moto Guzzi Quota when I had the chance eh! :niceone:

Cheers


I don't know what a Quota is but if its got the big Guzzi V-twin in it I suspect it will be great on the highway but too heavy and cubersome for all but well graded dirt roads. If most of your riding is on the highway and you don't mind detouring some of the rougher terrain when you go off the seal then the big trailies (the ones with the 1000cc engines) are fine.

However, if you want to get into some rougher country - like four wheel drive tracks with ruts, drainage ditches, rocky streams, tree-fell, etc you will find the big trailies cumbersome, tiring and most importantly no fun! For these conditions you need light weight (ideally less than 170kg), quick steering, high ground clearance (no worse than the Freewind - which has had its share of being high-centred and trapped in deep ruts), narrow front to back profile, good low-end torque, and suspension with some decent travel and proper set-up.

I am basically happy with the Freewind but if I was shopping I would look for something with a bit more power for the highway. The Freewind at 45 or so HP is not really adequate 2-up on the highway.

Perhaps the Transalp (as has been suggested) provided its got the required power, or the DL650 (with a 21" front wheel - absolutely essential), or (swoon-swoon) the KTM950!

Remember, any bike for this type of service should be looked at critically for how vunerable things are to getting smashed - like the exhaust pipe routing, etc, I mentioned before, and even details like; are the indicators rubber mounted? (yes on the Freewind).

Ixion
31st May 2005, 17:05
A lot of the big "adventure" bikes are based around the American desert riding concept, with lots of wide open space and very few obstacles. They don't work so well in our terrain which is often narrow and cluttered with trees, rocks, ogres etc.

In the desert you aren't likely to get stuck . But if you're trying to haul the bike up a stream bank (ie it's hanging off a rope over a tree branch at the top of the vertical bank) , the weight and size of a 650 or bigger becomes VERY noticeable

XTC
31st May 2005, 21:25
Practical adventure bike....

Motu
31st May 2005, 22:05
I'm a shortarse too and have exactly the same criteria as Merv - my XT is the Gravel Road Express and does my road work and long rides,I have a trials bike for really getting into serious ''you shouldn't go there'' stuff,well,just twinshock trials really.And finally made the choice on a DT230 as my small offroader and adventure bike.The XT is capable of easy adventure rides - in the dry,but it always seems to rain and I don't want to push a big bike around in the mud....so I need small bikes for real off road stuff.

Dual Purpose is the most difficult bike to buy,nothing is exactly right for all uses....and then we get into tyres,another minefield - I have 2 sets of wheels for the DT230,so I don't have to change tyres every time I ride it - um,this is all a dream you know,I've only ridden the DT a couple of times,so don't know much about what it will do yet....

Henk
31st May 2005, 22:39
I've got a TTR600 with a 20 litre tank. The only complaint now is the lack of electric start. Not a good two up bike but the perfect one up gravel road bike. There are plenty of good Dirt bikes and road bikes out there, adventure bikes are a difficult one though as everyone wants something different. I've done some light duty trail riding in Woodhill and Riverhead on mine as well as 350 k days on the raod. Wouldn't want to do an Enduro on it though.

warewolf
31st May 2005, 23:09
Yeah in the end the whole thing gets down to exactly what do you want to do with the bike?

G'day,

Well I hope the answer to the question is KTM 640 Adventure, 'cos that's what I've just bought! :niceone:

Part of the problem with the term, "Adventure ride" in NZ is the wildly differing types of ride this covers. The beemer safaris come under this banner, which can be hardly more than a gravel road ride - in which case a roadie ridden carefully would cope. Then at the other end of the spectrum are the rides where all but a couple of hard-cores trailer their registered enduro race bikes to the event, and run with NHS rubber... and on road-legal rubber you get turned away from the more interesting sections.

I went with the KTM because there's bugger-all improvement left in it, just some tidying up around the edges. Big tank? got it. Big headlights? got it. Great suspension? got it. Electric start? got it. Fat bars, risers, hand guards? got it. Electrical socket? got it. You get the drift (pardon the pun!).

Seat height is a problem, but less preload and 28mm lowering links will mostly deal to that issue.

The 640 is hopefully a good compromise between serious dirt performance, and acceptable two-up road traveling. It's over 40kgs lighter than a 950 - as others have said, important when picking up the sucker - but also useful in the tight stuff. It's lighter than the F650 and more powerful plus better suspended. It's twice the price of a DR650 but hey! I've got the DR-Z250 as the cheapie, which is why I can afford the KTM.

rogson
1st June 2005, 11:06
Practical adventure bike....

Here is a picture of Freewilly (name courtesy of my wife).
Its the only one I have. I think it was taken in the parking lot at one of the Glaciers. It doesn't really show the arrangement made-up to accomodate the 21" front wheel but you can see the mudguard is yellow (the original mudguard doesn't work with the raised fork brace needed to accomodate the bigger wheel). I was in a hurry to find something at the time and got it for $10 from a wrecker. I was intending to replace it with something that looks a bit better (a better matching colour for a start) but it works and I haven't bothered to look around for a replacement. The luggage is a Givi box with two small backpacks strapped either side.

clint640
1st June 2005, 11:35
[QUOTE=warewolf]G'day,

Well I hope the answer to the question is KTM 640 Adventure, 'cos that's what I've just bought! :niceone:
QUOTE]

I'm with you on that one, although the 640 Enduro hits the spot for me 'cos it's lighter weight & less breakable bits make it more dirt worthy, so I can go out & have fun on some of the easier trail rides. Bolt on my 20 litre tank & 'lil windscreen & she's almost as good long distance as the adventure.
It's all about what you want to do with it - I don't think there is a better bike available for what I do with it (much as I lust after that super enduro 950 I couldn't ride one in a trailride without it killing me) However if you are a shorter rider, or want to go 2 up with the kitchen sink onboard, a 640 probably won't do it for ya.

Cheers
Clint

Oscar
1st June 2005, 18:00
[QUOTE=warewolf]G'day,

Well I hope the answer to the question is KTM 640 Adventure, 'cos that's what I've just bought! :niceone:
QUOTE]

I'm with you on that one, although the 640 Enduro hits the spot for me 'cos it's lighter weight & less breakable bits make it more dirt worthy, so I can go out & have fun on some of the easier trail rides. Bolt on my 20 litre tank & 'lil windscreen & she's almost as good long distance as the adventure.
It's all about what you want to do with it - I don't think there is a better bike available for what I do with it (much as I lust after that super enduro 950 I couldn't ride one in a trailride without it killing me) However if you are a shorter rider, or want to go 2 up with the kitchen sink onboard, a 640 probably won't do it for ya.

Cheers
Clint

Hiya Clint

Where's yer ride report for yer coast to coast effort?

clint640
1st June 2005, 18:18
G'day Oscar, It was a great trip. Give me a couple of weeks & I'll have a report up - my PC at the new job is a bit of a dunger so uploading pics will have to wait until I buy meself a shiny new laptop next payday & get it connected.

Cheers
Clint

Cary
1st June 2005, 19:52
With all these adventure bikes surfacing we may have to organise a ride :ride:

Henk
1st June 2005, 21:14
Stunning idea. Or we could tag along on the Coro ride this weekend and throw the Tapu Coroglen and 309 roads into the mix

laRIKin
1st June 2005, 21:25
Hi all other LC4 owners.

I to have a (03) KTM 640E.
Great bike on and off road, maybe better off road.
The 12L tank could be bigger as you get about 180-200k's to a tank. (I'm told)
And the seat is a bit hard for most people.
A sheep skin fixers that, I'm told.
Or you could get it reupholstered.
I have done 200k trip and my butt was OK. (got a hard a$$)
And you can get a larger tank but that costs lots.
And after 200k's on a big single a stop is a good thing. (vibe's)
I think that I will be keeping this bike for a while as it does every thing.
I could see me buying another one in the future.

clint640
2nd June 2005, 09:03
Hi all other LC4 owners.

I to have a (03) KTM 640E.
Great bike on and off road, maybe better off road.
The 12L tank could be bigger as you get about 180-200k's to a tank. (I'm told)
And the seat is a bit hard for most people.
A sheep skin fixers that, I'm told.
Or you could get it reupholstered.
I have done 200k trip and my butt was OK. (got a hard a$$)
And you can get a larger tank but that costs lots.
And after 200k's on a big single a stop is a good thing. (vibe's)
I think that I will be keeping this bike for a while as it does every thing.
I could see me buying another one in the future.

Oscar & I have the 18 litre tank which gives 350+ km range (mine actually holds 20 litres) I usually leave the 12L tank on as most of my adv riding mates have 12L tanks & we work to their range when planning rides.
The KTM Hardparts 'comfort seat' is apparently only $200 ish which is probably cheaper than a reupholstery job.
How many km's have you got on the bike? - I found the vibes really died away after about the 5000km mark, these things take a while to run in. I've done a few 500+ km days on mine now.

Cheers
Clint

Badcat
2nd June 2005, 09:15
Hi all other LC4 owners.

I to have a (03) KTM 640E.
Great bike on and off road, maybe better off road.
The 12L tank could be bigger as you get about 180-200k's to a tank. (I'm told)
And the seat is a bit hard for most people.
A sheep skin fixers that, I'm told.
Or you could get it reupholstered.
I have done 200k trip and my butt was OK. (got a hard a$$)
And you can get a larger tank but that costs lots.
And after 200k's on a big single a stop is a good thing. (vibe's)
I think that I will be keeping this bike for a while as it does every thing.
I could see me buying another one in the future.

hey lemans.
i had a 2002 supermoto and bought the comfort seat.
it's totally different, i would thoroughly recommend it.
before - an hour in the seat was all i could do.
with the comfort seat - changed to about 3 hours before the vibes got to me.
$200 sounds about right and you can keep it for your next KTM.

laRIKin
2nd June 2005, 19:14
Oscar & I have the 18 litre tank which gives 350+ km range (mine actually holds 20 litres) I usually leave the 12L tank on as most of my adv riding mates have 12L tanks & we work to their range when planning rides.
The KTM Hardparts 'comfort seat' is apparently only $200 ish which is probably cheaper than a reupholstery job.
How many km's have you got on the bike? - I found the vibes really died away after about the 5000km mark, these things take a while to run in. I've done a few 500+ km days on mine now.

Cheers
Clint

Hi Clint

But I do not find the vibes that bad. (not $200 bad any way)
My bike has 7500km on the clock and you could be right that the vibes get
better, or you just get use to it.
It's not helped buy the tires that I run.(as off road as I can get and still DOT)
I do not ride the bike on road that much any way and off road I'm standing
most of the time.

What did you pay for the 18L tanks?

I have just cut 4 coils out of my springs (did 3 and last night did another)
As I found the front to soft in the whoops and jumps.
Have you derestricted yours?

laRIKin
2nd June 2005, 19:20
hey lemans.
i had a 2002 supermoto and bought the comfort seat.
it's totally different, i would thoroughly recommend it.
before - an hour in the seat was all i could do.
with the comfort seat - changed to about 3 hours before the vibes got to me.
$200 sounds about right and you can keep it for your next KTM.

Gidday Badcat

As I do not ride on the road that much so its not a problem.
But if I get a SM as welllllllllll.
I would properly get a better seat.

XTC
3rd June 2005, 11:49
The vibes on the XT are never intrusive but then the XT has a balance shaft...
I thought before I got it that for road use I may have to find some rubber pegs to fit but there is no need.

clint640
7th June 2005, 13:10
Hi Clint

What did you pay for the 18L tanks?

I have just cut 4 coils out of my springs (did 3 and last night did another)
As I found the front to soft in the whoops and jumps.
Have you derestricted yours?

I got the 18L tank thrown in when I bought the bike, so not sure how much.

I've still got heaps of adjustment left on my suspension, I've added 4 clicks over stock comp F&R, & 2 clicks more rebound on the back & she seems to go OK, I'm only 70 kg tho & I ride like a pussy offroad.

In terms of 'derestriction' I've taken off the solenoid switched vacuum bleed from the top of the carb if that's what you mean, didn't notice a big difference. Also I have made up a vented airbox cover, put on an SXC silencer, upped the main jet to 150 & pilot air jet to 47.5 & raised the needle clip to the 4th groove. All this has made a nice improvement - wheelies easier & a few more km/h top speed, sounds good too.

Cheers
Clint

laRIKin
7th June 2005, 22:28
clint640 I have also drilled my slide and cut 2 coils out of the slide spring.
This helps the slide lift faster by taking out some of the pre-load.
Yes (before someone jumps in) is does make the spring stiffer, but only a
small amount because of the number of coils.
Heres a link to a site of a guys, that has done a lot of testing.

Carb mods (http://www.motorally.ca/English/OnTheWeb/BST%20Jetting%20Guide.pdf)

That link does not always work so try this one.

Better link (http://www.motorally.ca/)

Click on english and then link and lastly Flanny's BST40 Jetting Guide (760kb)

Not sure what year your 640 is, so this may be no good to you.
That is if you do not have a BST carb.
What you could also try to get more power is.
Remove the front sprocket cover and you will see 3 sender switchers.
Now the middle one (will have to recheck on this) is the neutral switch and
the other 2 are for 2nd & 3rd gear.
Now these activate the solenoid switched vacuum bleed and some think
that it changers the timing to get the bike though the noise level tests.
By not letting the bike rev out in these two gears.

Just disconnect at try as it will cost nothing and let me know if it helps.
And tape up the ends to stop shorting.

oldrider
10th July 2005, 22:53
With respect to all the riders choice of bikes, we have selected a Honda TransAlp 650 as our current stead. Both my wife and I really enjoy it. (She has been riding bikes for 25 yrs and I have been riding for 50 yrs) We have done 25k on this bike over mixed terain (about 70/30 on off road) We are not so strong these days and this bike is a little bit lighter when you get into trouble, as you do. Our budget is a bit lighter nowdays so only have one bike fits all, this one fits the bill perfectly. Has a range of about 360 ks/ per tank, sits nicely at 90/110 kph, maxis out at about 170 kph and when the fun police are distracted cruises easily at 140kph. Well mannered easy to ride a little high geared for serious off road but is easy to rig with givi bags for long range touring. We got a new seat from "Rider" in Tauranga, Fantastic!! Other extras are, high screen and center stand. We think it outperforms the BMW 650 by quite a bit with its twin cylinder engine and Honda reliability but then it's just a personal preference thing really. I would really recomend you take a look at one of these bikes if you are into venture biking. Don't be fooled by the apparent docility before testing it against another comparitive machine. We did 5000km around the north island last summer and both of us just loved it. The traffic was well behaved, scenery and weather perfect. Going back next summer. Moms a bit of a sissy about weather these days. Cheers John. :ride:

clint640
11th July 2005, 09:01
Yep. it's strange that there aren't more Transalps around, F650's are quite common now & the TA is aiming at the same market & as you say, has a few advantages over the F650.
Marketing probably has a bit to do with it - you never see a new TA sitting on the floor of the local Honda shop, but the Beemer dealer will have a shiny new F650 & probably a Dakar too.

Cheers
Clint

Motu
11th July 2005, 09:23
I'm ready to heap scorn on any bike,as far as I'm concerned they are all crap,there is always someway I can make an owner embarassed for riding such a stupid bike,and I had picked the Transalp to pieces before I even got on it,this was the early model.By the time I got back I was sold,that motor is such a honey,suspension and handling to take whatever NZ roads throw at it...but I wouldn't take it too far off road.A very overlooked bike - people just need to go for a spin on one and change their mind.

Oscar
11th July 2005, 09:58
Yep. it's strange that there aren't more Transalps around, F650's are quite common now & the TA is aiming at the same market & as you say, has a few advantages over the F650.
Marketing probably has a bit to do with it - you never see a new TA sitting on the floor of the local Honda shop, but the Beemer dealer will have a shiny new F650 & probably a Dakar too.

Cheers
Clint

Having owned a F650GS and ridden a Transalp, I have to say that the Honda is far superior. Briefly, the BMW's engine is totally unsuited for off-road use and it's brakes are crap.

rogson
9th December 2005, 12:40
Here is the picture of Freewilly with the 21" front wheel I promised about 6 months ago. As I said the fender is a $15 jobbie from a wrecker - so no colour choice at that price. I've mounted it using spacers I had machined. There is plenty of clearence between it and the tyre so mud/stones/etc don't get jammed between. Its ugly but it works!

clint640
9th December 2005, 14:30
A can of silver (or orange) spraypaint would have that looking better, Hows the handling now?

Cheers
Clint

carver
9th December 2005, 14:42
the best adventure bike is........
MY yamaha dt 175:banana:
i have done 2 up gravel riding on it, its great at it, i have stiffened up the front and rear shocks, and de restriced it, its light, flickable, does 110 full throttle:rockon: , has a low seat height (really)

it is my personal fav
better than anything else i have ridden built for the dirt simply because is so general purpose
:2thumbsup

rogson
9th December 2005, 14:54
.......Hows the handling now?

Handlings fine.
Steering feels slightly slower immediately after changeover from the 19" wheel but soon don't notice it. The 21" wheel is alloy, whereas the 19" is steel. The lighter unsprung weight seems to help with suspension compliance in the rough. That, combined with the narrower & larger diameter tyre makes a huge difference to confidence in the front end on gravel and off-road.

The 21" wheel came with a trailwing mounted and on the road it didn't feel any different (traction, turn-in, noise, vibration, etc) than the 19" wheel with the factory mounted all-purpose tyre (MT80). Different story with the MT21 though - I wouldn't want to be using it for regular/extended road use.