Road engineers - Tar snakes?

[Big Dave]

http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2010/08/hazzard-installation-progessing-nicely.html

I know some of you blokes on here understand the roading business.

They use them (Tar snakes) to stop further degradation of the surface?
What are the alternatives?
Do they realise how dangerous they are?

[mashman]

Not that I understand the industry, but in all of my years of navigating roadworks in the UK, the only other alternative was nothing... which leaves, what we used to call, Tram Lines :)

[Big Dave]

Not that I understand the industry, but in all of my years of navigating roadworks in the UK, the only other alternative was nothing... which leaves, what we used to call, Tram Lines :)

But they have proliferated recently?

[shrub]

Look, as long as noobs keep falling off bikes we have no right to complain about tar snakes. The best solution is not to ride.

When motorcyclists stop having at-fault crashes we will have the right to complain, until then assume the position please, and don't expect a reach around.

[mashman]

But they have proliferated recently?

er, er, er yes... everytime they dig something up, it's tar snakes or tram lines that are left...

[Big Dave]

Look, as long as noobs keep falling off bikes we have no right to complain about tar snakes. The best solution is not to ride.

When motorcyclists stop having at-fault crashes we will have the right to complain, until then assume the position please, and don't expect a reach around.

I blame the whales.

[mashman]

Look, as long as noobs keep falling off bikes we have no right to complain about tar snakes. The best solution is not to ride.


To be fair mate, hitting tar snakes and tram lines have had me out of my seat, or left me weaving all over the road quite a few times... especially on entry or exit of a corners :yes:... they are seriously fuckin dangerous... My sister had her scooter for 3 days for her 20 mile commute into Manchester city dentre... the tram lines really put her off and I fully understood why... they are diabolical.

[Big Dave]

er, er, er yes... everytime they dig something up, it's tar snakes or tram lines that are left...

What did they do before I wonder - fix the cracks properly?

Must be too expensive now. Public health is in such good shape too.

[Big Dave]

To be fair mate,

'eee uses sarcasm' - Enzo Pirhana, 1972

[Ronin]

Look, as long as noobs keep falling off bikes we have no right to complain about tar snakes. The best solution is not to ride.

When motorcyclists stop having at-fault crashes we will have the right to complain, until then assume the position please, and don't expect a reach around.

Erm... Is Katman on leave?

[Katman]

A while ago the Taupo track was littered with them.

Didn't seem to slow anyone down.

[aprilia_RS250]

Do burnouts on em!:blip:

[mashman]

'eee uses sarcasm' - Enzo Pirhana, 1972

must stay off the paroxide... I just don't see them, that often, over here... you're way too fond of your gravel :)

[shrub]

What did they do before I wonder - fix the cracks properly?

Must be too expensive now. Public health is in such good shape too.

More a case of they only impact on motorcyclists, and we're our own worst enemies and are going to come off anyway, so why not make it easy for us to bin our bikes and get it over with?

[mashman]

More a case of they only impact on motorcyclists, and we're our own worst enemies and are going to come off anyway, so why not make it easy for us to bin our bikes and get it over with?

To be fair mate... :)

[shrub]

To be fair mate... :)

the best solution is not to ride those horrid, dangerous things and buy a nice safe SUV. If you insist on owning a bike, buy some quirky old thing and keep it in the shed where it's nice and safe.

[Mom]

But they have proliferated recently?

Yes they have. The reason they have is because of the big dry that we have just experienced. The ground under the roads has dired out and shrunk making the road surface subside and break open. They have had to remedy this quickly before the rains came and really opened up the road surface, hence the tar snakes. I went crook at the local council for it, this the explanation given.

And no, they do not equate them with danger for road users.

[shrub]

And no, they do not equate them with danger for road users.

Because nobody has told them that they are. I am in the process of writing a letter to the local council explaining what happens when a motorcycle crosses them in the rain, and no, I'm not going to wait until bikers stop having at-fault crashes.

[Mom]

Because nobody has told them that they are. I am in the process of writing a letter to the local council explaining what happens when a motorcycle crosses them in the rain, and no, I'm not going to wait until bikers stop having at-fault crashes.

I wish you luck with it, I too am not happy sitting back and taking it and am a big campaigner against all things anti motorcycle. My MP has got so sick of my letters over the years hammering him about road conditions in this area for motorcyclists. The local council here is renowned for leaving unmarked road works etc. Point it out to them as often as you like, I reckon they have cloth ears myself :D

[shrub]

2 phone calls and email later, and next week I've got a meeting with the road safety team leader at the Christchurch City Council. They have as one of their criteria cutting down the motorcycle crash rate and want to work with us.

[Bald Eagle]

Good one, working with tptb :2thumbsup

[Juzz976]

We got enough tar snakes in tauranga, even indiana jones wouldnt ride here.

Mutha F#$*&n Crazy ass medusa shEEt goin down oropi road.

I don't mind em, personally they're fun at times and if you got pulled up by mr plod you'd have a good excuse for the loss of traction.

Although I know some noobs gonna get bitten, hell I might too on an off day.

["D" FZ1]

Ask the Hippy BD. He's the Bitumen expert :yes:

[Spazman727]

Couldn't they mix sand or something with the tar so they're less slippery or would that not work?

[Katman]

(It seems everyone in this thread has me on ignore.)

So the tar snakes on Taupo track...........different sort are they?

[shrub]

Good one, working with tptb :2thumbsup

And even though motorcyclists still do dumb shit I didn't get laughed at and told to bugger off.

[Juzz976]

So the tar snakes on Taupo track...........different sort are they?

Must be, they alright in the dry.

Its when they're wet, especially in some light its hard to see em.

I'd Imagine if the ones were talking about were on the track (wet day) you'd be taking things very easy in areas with them, you'll easily bin at track speeds.

Theres some that are like half rounds and you slip off them while riding straight line.

[Gremlin]

(It seems everyone in this thread has me on ignore.)

So the tar snakes on Taupo track...........different sort are they?
Yes, they are definitely made with a different substance.

There are pieces of roads in Auckland that look like a patchwork quilt and the bike simply won't grip on them. Before you ask, rear suspension is ohlins, michelin PR2 or strada tyres, etc, the snakes have no grip, ESPECIALLY in the wet.

[Katman]

Yes, they are definitely made with a different substance.

There are pieces of roads in Auckland that look like a patchwork quilt and the bike simply won't grip on them. Before you ask, rear suspension is ohlins, michelin PR2 or strada tyres, etc, the snakes have no grip, ESPECIALLY in the wet.

So why don't they use the substance that is used on racetracks?

[shrub]

So why don't they use the substance that is used on racetracks?

Because motorcyclists have accidents, and they're punishing us for being evil.

[Katman]

Because motorcyclists have accidents, and they're punishing us for being evil.

Many a true word is said in jest.

[zeocen]

Yes, they are definitely made with a different substance.

There are pieces of roads in Auckland that look like a patchwork quilt and the bike simply won't grip on them. Before you ask, rear suspension is ohlins, michelin PR2 or strada tyres, etc, the snakes have no grip, ESPECIALLY in the wet.

Nelson Street turning right onto Victoria street has one massive long snake and I've really got to hit it at 10 - 15kph in the wet - even then it still slides a bit on the rear because it's on the corner. Michelin PR2CT on VFR800 here.

And don't EVEN get me started on the sorry excuse for a "road" in the roadwork area of Manukau Southern Motorway. :angry:

[sinned]

Has anyone had a bin from a tar snake. I have hit a few (lots on the Paekakariki Hill Rd) and they are disturbing with strong rectal reaction. So far I have survived the dreaded tar snake and would like real evidence of how dangerous they are - so who has binned? The need to change the undies is not a bin.

[Deano]

A while ago the Taupo track was littered with them.

Didn't seem to slow anyone down.

They were slippery as fuck during the VMCC winter round actually. I avoided them like the plague.

[mashman]

from what i've seen while waiting at roadworks. They get a hot flame and melt the tar in the back to a liquid state to fill the gap between the tram lined surfaces. It then cools and sets like glass. If it gets wet, you can be riding in a straight line, hit the stuff and be flying through the air, FACT. It's really dangerous stuff, tram lines are much safer. And that's saying something.

[Ocean1]

They're supposed to chuck sand on the fresh hot bitumen, but I've rarely seen it done on fresh snakes. Doesn't last long anyway, sinks into the bitumen.

They do need to seal the cracks somehow, not realistic to completely re-lay a section of road just 'cause of a few cracks. Just be nice if they refined the SOP to get some grip on the surface...

[mashman]

Has anyone had a bin from a tar snake. I have hit a few (lots on the Paekakariki Hill Rd) and they are disturbing with strong rectal reaction. So far I have survived the dreaded tar snake and would like real evidence of how dangerous they are - so who has binned? The need to change the undies is not a bin.

Scotland, November some years ago... dreak day, a car driver watched me go through a corner in a straight line and upright, before, for no reason whatsoever, being thrown into the air and almost off the bike... speed was not a factor, I was going 50 in a 60, his words, and I was concentrating hard enough, that I didn't even see the guy in my mirror... good on him for stopping to see if I was ok... I came pretty close to shitting myself... amongst other things.

That's as close as anyone needs to get :) 'orrid ain't they...

[Katman]

Scotland, November some years ago... dreak day, a car driver watched me go through a corner in a straight line and upright, before, for no reason whatsoever, being thrown into the air and almost off the bike... speed was not a factor, I was going 50 in a 60, his words, and I was concentrating hard enough, that I didn't even see the guy in my mirror... good on him for stopping to see if I was ok... I came pretty close to shitting myself... amongst other things.

That's as close as anyone needs to get :) 'orrid ain't they...

Maybe you should have had your eyes open.

[=cJ=]

Maybe you should have had your eyes open.

That's a bit rough Katman, it's bloody hard to pick tar out on a wet road, one glistening surface looks pretty damn similar to another, even contrasting road markings are hard to see if the surface is wet and the light's wrong...

Anyways.

Re Taupo, as far as I know they got re-treated with epoxy mixed with sand to get the grip levels back up.

Prior to that, I think the repairs were epoxy rather than tar if I remember an old magazine article correctly, but were still supposed to be as slippery as buggery.

[cold comfort]

the best solution is not to ride those horrid, dangerous things and buy a nice safe SUV. If you insist on owning a bike, buy some quirky old thing and keep it in the shed where it's nice and safe.

Great idea- preferable something old and British that leaks oil, with riding intervals a mere percentage of maintenance time:blink: These bikers are SUCH a liability-if you can't tax them off the road just kill them!

[Supertwin Don]

As Mom said, these are to fill up SMALL cracks in the road surface - the main problem is not that per se, but the "applicators" don't use the correct method. These things should be NOT MORE than 40 - 50mm wide, and should be applied with a "shoe" to control the width - but it's much quicker to pour the bitumen out of a flattened watering can spout !

[Big Dave]

As Mom said, these are to fill up SMALL cracks in the road surface - the main problem is not that per se, but the "applicators" don't use the correct method. These things should be NOT MORE than 40 - 50mm wide, and should be applied with a "shoe" to control the width - but it's much quicker to pour the bitumen out of a flattened watering can spout !

i'm going with approximately the same width as road lines and slightly more slippery - 6 weeks after installation.

215452

[mashman]

i'm going with approximately the same width as road lines and slightly more slippery - 6 weeks after installation.

215452

:shit::shit::shit: and horizontally across the road too :Police:

the raise on the edge on the "vertical" snakes too. hit it anything other than perfect in the wet and yer fucked

[swbarnett]

Look, as long as noobs keep falling off bikes we have no right to complain about tar snakes. The best solution is not to ride.

When motorcyclists stop having at-fault crashes we will have the right to complain, until then assume the position please, and don't expect a reach around.
So you're saying that they'd be justified if installed permenant black ice over the whole road simply because we make mistakes now and then?

It is not unreasonable to ask that the road surface at least be one that is suitable for every legal mode of transport.

[swbarnett]

er, er, er yes... everytime they dig something up, it's tar snakes or tram lines that are left...
With proper planning and execution this is totally unnecessary. There is not one tar snake in Switzerland (that I saw in the two years that I lived there). I did, however, see road works. The philosophy is that if the road is dug up they do every bit of maintenance they can think of while it's up and resurface the whole width of the road afterwards.

[swbarnett]

Yes they have. The reason they have is because of the big dry that we have just experienced. The ground under the roads has dired out and shrunk making the road surface subside and break open.
I'm no engineer but this sounds to me like they didn't compact the ground properly when the road was built?

[Houseman]

I was coming back to Auck from Taupo last weekend and met one just leaving Gordonton (back road from Cambridge to Huntly). Not speeding, just a mild corner with no power being applied then *kick* my tail is all over the road. Held on thankfully but you could have cracked a wallnut between my arse cheeks.

[shrub]

So you're saying that they'd be justified if installed permenant black ice over the whole road simply because we make mistakes now and then?

It is not unreasonable to ask that the road surface at least be one that is suitable for every legal mode of transport.

I was being facetious, there is absolutely no justification for road repairs that place a significant group or road users in danger. I was having a none too subtle dig at the faction that believe that as long as motorcyclists have at-fault crashes we have no right to demand our safety be considered by TPTB.

[Pixie]

Yes they have. The reason they have is because of the big dry that we have just experienced. The ground under the roads has dired out and shrunk making the road surface subside and break open. They have had to remedy this quickly before the rains came and really opened up the road surface, hence the tar snakes. I went crook at the local council for it, this the explanation given.

And no, they do not equate them with danger for road users.

Wouldn't be a problem if half arsed NZ didn't make roads by rolling the clay flat and painting it black.

[Ocean1]

Wouldn't be a problem if half arsed NZ didn't make roads by rolling the clay flat and painting it black.

Flat? as in... flat?

Fookin' looxury, when I were a nipper...

[Mom]

I'm no engineer but this sounds to me like they didn't compact the ground properly when the road was built?

That and the fact that a lot of our roads up here are built on Onerahi Chaos soil. Moves constantly.

[mashman]

Maybe you should have had your eyes open.

What for. The road isn't dangerous enough for me, so I close my eyes for straight line riding :)

[Rogue Rider]

Back in the dark ages, when life was rosie, and riding was what you did to hang out and reek havoc on the weekend on your bonnie 750..... Roads used to be made properly, with solid seal. If there was a damaged piece they would correct the whole section of road, usually once properly..... rather than below average patch ups that would need 4 or 5 re hashes every 1 months.....
Roading today under the contract buiso is a corrupt buisness that costs the tax payer copious amounts of money for very average workmanship.
I look at road works today and it amazes me how so useless we are at efficiency and economics.
I look at the Warkworth roadworks on SH1, and the new section of the toll road and I really wonder how LTSA can make such a hash of roading. Over seas in Croatia, in the same time as it took to build the pathetic exension for the northern gateway, they built a 25km 6 lane hiway with 2 tunnels twice as long for nearly the same amount of money...... go figure.

Our roads suck, and we get ripped paying for them. LTSA wake up and manage contracts better. Build roads right the first time.

[Big Dave]

We were talking about this - and we actually had an motion at one of the BRONZ meetings to register our concerns - but it got swept aside by the ACC imbroglio.

What would be good is a standard form letter we can copy and paste our concerns to the relevant authority.

Who would that be and what should it say?


All of these people or their organisations should be on the mailing list too.
http://krnewsroom.blogspot.com/2010/07/acc-sets-up-accident-prevention-group.html

[swbarnett]

I was being facetious, there is absolutely no justification for road repairs that place a significant group or road users in danger. I was having a none too subtle dig at the faction that believe that as long as motorcyclists have at-fault crashes we have no right to demand our safety be considered by TPTB.
Obviously my sarcasim detector is on the blink. As you were...

[Berries]

Who would that be and what should it say?
If it is a state highway then the local NZTA office - http://www.nzta.govt.nz/about/contact/our-offices.html. If it is not a state highway then the local council.

What should it say ? Just a simple question as to why they are using repair methods that make the road more dangerous for two wheel users. Get an explanation then you have someone to complain to, send photos of shoddy non standard work etc etc. In my short time on KB it seems as if there is a lot of complaining on here and going round in circles rather than complaining to the people who can do something about it. Generally they will.

[shrub]

If it is a state highway then the local NZTA office - http://www.nzta.govt.nz/about/contact/our-offices.html. If it is not a state highway then the local council.

What should it say ? Just a simple question as to why they are using repair methods that make the road more dangerous for two wheel users. Get an explanation then you have someone to complain to, send photos of shoddy non standard work etc etc. In my short time on KB it seems as if there is a lot of complaining on here and going round in circles rather than complaining to the people who can do something about it. Generally they will.

Exactly. TPTB actually want motorcyclists to be safe, but as long as we listen to the idiots who think nobody will listen to us until we're all riding flawlessly nothing will happen. As I discovered, a couple of calls was all it took to set up a meeting, and the guy didn't raise the behaviour of the powerrangers on the Akaroa GP or the noobs on 250s and never will.

[Big Dave]

I agree that In the normal course of events they are momentary pucker inducers to an experienced rider.

Mostly a matter of WTF and ride it out - when you hit one at night in the face on oncoming traffic - and they are invisible - if you know what you are doing. Hell, I aquaplaned with no control on one of those 240 section rear tyre mosters for the best part of 50 meters through Mangakino once - and stayed upright. (You just have to wait till friction sinks it :-))

I've also picked up the bikes for less experience rider who felt it all going wrong and grabbed a handful of brakes.

In the next street over towards the city - it runs down to the main road past a school. It's now virtually impossible to pick a line through them. With mum in her 3 tonne remuera taxi pulling u-turns.

Obvious answer is don't go that way. The principle of the repairs adding another element of danger narks me.

Still where I'd like my $30 levy invested. Or most of it anyway.

[Ocean1]

Still where I'd like my $30 levy invested. Or most of it anyway.

That's very generous of you dude!

I'd like some of mine invested in a nice beach.

With sand. And beach chairs and shit.

With a bar, and barmaids.

And a more or less continuous supply of approved beverages.



Reckon I've got a chance?

[shrub]

I agree that In the normal course of events they are momentary pucker inducers to an experienced rider.

But not all of us are experienced riders, and I wonder where the cause of crash would be attributed? For a car driver they're not even a minor issue, so our car driving masters and constabulary would no doubt assign blame to excessive speed resulting in a loss of control.

[schrodingers cat]

That's a bit rough Katman, it's bloody hard to pick tar out on a wet road, one glistening surface looks pretty damn similar to another, even contrasting road markings are hard to see if the surface is wet and the light's wrong...


Haven't you worked it out yet? According to Katman the rider is always at fault. Except himself I suppose.

[geoffm]

So why don't they use the substance that is used on racetracks?

For the same reason we don't use high friction paint for road markings. It costs money and motorcyclists are expendable scum anyway.

You don't live in Auckland,. There is a whole nest of them along the waterfront in Auckland, by the salt water pools and along from the container wharf. I had the BMW sliding sideways while perfectly upright, just from the camber of the road, the scooter is worse. Even weaving all over the road (not the brightest thing to do in JAFA commuter traffic) it is not possible to avoid them all.

[Big Dave]

Reckon I've got a chance?


Mine's a double thanks.

[Swoop]

... there is absolutely no justification for road repairs that place a significant group or road users in danger.
Quite true, however it all comes down to $$$'s.

If a council can save money by doing a patch-up job, they will. Why re-seal a road properly when money can be spent elsewhere on public servant's perks and backhanders?

Simply expecting a road to be capable of safely handling traffic at the posted speed limit, for that road, is an alien concept for the councils.

Another area is when we get manholes' and inspection plates on the apex of a corner. Designers possibly struggle with this concept and need to be educated on the consequences of their approach.

But others will simply say "slow down" instead of considering the road construction for the posted speed limit.