Two-strokes, dying breed?

[Craig#347]

Whats happening with 2 strokes these days . Great machines , honda, kawasaki, suzuki all stopped production a while ago now. When is yamaha, KTM going to be phased out does anyone know.

[honda_power]

i dont see ktm stopping any time soon

[flyingcr250]

2t's will never die out, when they introduce injected 2t's i think they will make a major resurgence,

[B0000M]

2 stroke support is alive an well on this forum.

and yes it is shit that the jap's caved to the eco bullshit that society is being spoon fed.


KTM is apparently meant to be releasing some direct injection 2 strokes some time soon, which according to what i've been told produce more power than the old 2 strokes, use less fuel than the 4 strokes, and produce less emmissions than the 4 strokes.... if this is the case, they will be the new revolution in the industry.

as for 4 strokes- my opinion of them is they are over complicated in design, have too many parts moving too fast in a less than ideal environment (mud / water / sand etc), and they are heavy (450s) or gutless and heavy (250s)

[Craig#347]

yeah the running cost of a 250f has certainly started to take the fun out of it for me

[Bradz]

Never never never, I just switched from a 4t to 2t Gas Gas, the most fun ive ever had on a dirt bike!! Surprised it took me so long to see the light

[Latte]

Yeah it'll only be those crazy enthusiasts left riding 2 strokes soon, putting up with more fun for less money, they're mad.


:P

[EXCDirt]

Never never never, I just switched from a 4t to 2t Gas Gas, the most fun ive ever had on a dirt bike!! Surprised it took me so long to see the light
I love my 2 stroke too.
I'm never going back to the 4t side.
Liked my Ktm but really like my Gas gas.

[t595]

this is why 2strokes will never die!! (make sure volume is at max)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYXAA1TjdQ

[flyingcr250]

all this talk about 2T's makes a chap want to change his mind

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Dirt-bikes//auction-295912987.htm

[xen]

4t you ride faster & easier but for fun ye ride 2t :)

[krad_nz]

Had a ride on a mates YZ250F today at the SandPit. (2007 model I think). Had an exhaust system on it.

Anyway, its quite a different ride. Smoother and more predictable, but somehow not as much fun or engaging as my KDX.
KDX even felt more grunty somehow, but I think its just because of the way power is delivered. The way 2/'s accelerate just feels quicker and more enjoyable. :)

Gear selection seemed less crucial on the YZ250F, pulled from third easily enough from almost any speed while in damp sand. That was pretty impressive.

Having said all that, he well and truely schooled me. That thing rails through corners, KDX always feels like its going to wash out.

[noobi]

Well it seems only the Euros are interested in further development of the 2 stroke, I know KTM and GasGas have their eyes on the direct injected 2 stroke holy grail some time in the near future.
TM have 2 strokes with efi throttle bodies, I dont know where Husqvarna stand on the injection front but all that BMW money has to be going somewhere right?
These are the latest offerings from the 4 Euro manufacturers :innocent:

[t595]

this is probably why the yanks wanted the 2stroke banned in such a hurry.
didnt think a dirty old 125 could beat these "hi tech" 4strokes:shutup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uICX65Eq94Y

[tommorth]

Hopefully the euros will keep pushing them, I know I would probably be faster on a 4 stroke but its just not as fun.

funny that when I was a kid if you wanted reliable you bought a fourstroke

[Pixie]

KTM is apparently meant to be releasing some direct injection 2 strokes some time soon, which according to what i've been told produce more power than the old 2 strokes, use less fuel than the 4 strokes, and produce less emmissions than the 4 strokes.... if this is the case, they will be the new revolution in the industry.



Evinrude already achieve these results with their 2T outboards

[honda_power]

all this talk about 2T's makes a chap want to change his mind

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Dirt-bikes//auction-295912987.htm

now that looks like a blast

[george formby]

I can remember Aprilia demonstrating a direct fuel injection system for a 2 stroke scooter motor quite a few years ago. The claims made for fuel economy, power & low emissions were amazing. Wonder what happened to it?
I've had a hankering to own the last of the Honda CRM's, the Active Radical motor which won it's class in the Paris Dakar first time out. If my memory is to be trusted, it fired on compression up to 4000rpm & then the spark plug kicked in. :shit:Great power, reliability & fairly low emissions but again just disappeared. Shame.
Their is a whole generation of riders who have never had the pleasure of owning a smelly, torquey 2 stroke & think complicated 4 strokes are the be all & end all of engines.
I hope they reinvent the 2 stroke as the next big thing. Lighter, faster, leaner. Yes please.:yes:

[Bradz]

all this talk about 2T's makes a chap want to change his mind

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Dirt-bikes//auction-295912987.htm

you have already worked out you have made a big mistake Steve!!! its not to late, just transfer your deposit to a different model

[flyingcr250]

you have already worked out you have made a big mistake Steve!!! its not to late, just transfer your deposit to a different model

thinking.................

[Bradz]

thinking.................

Dont think Steve, that what made you make a stupid decision and deposit a 350!! Be a bit more like Tiger and Just Do It

[flyingcr250]

Dont think Steve, that what made you make a stupid decision and deposit a 350!! Be a bit more like Tiger and Just Do It

ha ha, tiger wasnt doing too well last time i checked, if i do want to go back to a 2T im sure i wont have any problems selling the 350

[Keithf]

I don't think you will have any problems if you change your mind-I have a feeling that the the supply of 350's has been over promised.

I am pretty keen on a new Husky or maybe a GG -the only thing that would drive me towards a KTM 300 (if I could get one) is that the the scuttlebut is that the general is importer support for Huskys and GG's leaves a lot to be desired-not that I have really experienced that myself.

[oldskool]

ha ha, tiger wasnt doing too well last time i checked, if i do want to go back to a 2T im sure i wont have any problems selling the 350

Have you considered how much you will lose on resale if you buy it and find out you are not happy with the lack of bottom end?

[Rupe]

Have you considered how much you will lose on resale if you buy it and find out you are not happy with the lack of bottom end?

what makes you say that. I would of thought it would have great bottom end, it should gain great traction from all revs.

[flyingcr250]

Have you considered how much you will lose on resale if you buy it and find out you are not happy with the lack of bottom end?

bottom end is awesome, better than my 300,

has there actually been any news on injection for 2T's? or is it just a lot of hear say?

[green machine]

you have already worked out you have made a big mistake Steve!!! its not to late, just transfer your deposit to a different model

Come on Steve don't listen to these guys,you know you haven't made a mistake you're gonna love the 350...........

[Stylo]

this is why 2strokes will never die!! (make sure volume is at max)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYXAA1TjdQ

Good vid ......, glad I got a couple of 500' s in the shed back home .......:shit:

[oldskool]

what makes you say that. I would of thought it would have great bottom end, it should gain great traction from all revs.
Only based on Steves experience at the pit the other day. Bike kept stalling through the trees.

[Shane06]

husaberg about to release a range of 2 strokes for the first time..the 300 would go good i would imagine

[flyingcr250]

Only based on Steves experience at the pit the other day. Bike kept stalling through the trees.

it only stalled 3 or 4 times, it was probably just lack of riding lately and being on a different bike.

i like the look of the new hussaberg 2T's, im pretty sure they are very similar to the KTM's.

[noobi]

i like the look of the new husaberg 2T's, im pretty sure they are very similar to the KTM's.

They are exactly the same as the 2011 ktm exc two strokes(250 and 300), but have blue husaberg plastics, and a closed cartridge fork from another model ktm.

[camchain]

Always seemed odd to me that the clean green Europeans happily keep making dirty two-strokes - while whale munching, dolphin killer Japanese won't have a bar of them any more.

It's great to have the variety and the two stroke engine has a lot going for it but I think even the GOAT got a couple of seconds quicker when he switched to a 450?

[vazza]

Whats happening with 2 strokes these days . Great machines , honda, kawasaki, suzuki all stopped production a while ago now. When is yamaha, KTM going to be phased out does anyone know.

Not for a long time. KTM 2stroke sales internationally have sky rocketed. 2fits won't be phasing out anytime soon.



Only based on Steves experience at the pit the other day. Bike kept stalling through the trees.

I rode Steves demo 350 and didnt stall it once through the red/blue trails


Have you considered how much you will lose on resale if you buy it and find out you are not happy with the lack of bottom end?

wtf? the 350 has a huge amount of bottom end, I wouldnt want any more!

[honda_power]

Always seemed odd to me that the clean green Europeans happily keep making dirty two-strokes - while whale munching, dolphin killer Japanese won't have a bar of them any more.

It's great to have the variety and the two stroke engine has a lot going for it but I think even the GOAT got a couple of seconds quicker when he switched to a 450?

i dont think anyones denying the fact that the 4 strokes are faster... what we are saying is the 2 strokes are more fun, and cheaper to maintain. if i was racing id consider a four stoke... but id always have a smoker next to it in the shed :)

[B0000M]

another view on that though, i wouldnt race if it wasnt fun, and racing a 2 stroke 250 vs 450s, the 450 guys never have any power advantage over me.

maybe at mx1 level racing there could be something in it, but below that the bike isnt making that much difference- its the guy on it

[honda_power]

well, as much as i like my yz, four strokes are still fun... the 09+ honda 450s are really easy to throw about

but i see where your coming from

[vazza]

I had a blast on the demo 350SX.. Such a fun bike to ride. I'm told they're releasing the 350EXC in 2012.. Very keen :P

[Reckless]

bottom end is awesome, better than my 300,

has there actually been any news on injection for 2T's? or is it just a lot of hear say?

Firstly depends how you have set the power valve spring and jetting up. From what Booom said when he rode yours on Cave wetas ride my 200 has more bottom than your 300 and that is not the bike, its how you have set it up? So you might find a big big difference between each 300exc bike. So therefore the difference could be very large between the 350 and your 300 2T.
But in saying that, the four stroke vs 2t of today will always deliver more tractable power right through!
Secondly as far as we know direct injection in 2'ts is still a rumor!!
Although the thought has occurred to me when it comes and they make 2t's deliver power like 4t's what do we ride for fun then?? LOL!!



Always seemed odd to me that the clean green Europeans happily keep making dirty two-strokes - while whale munching, dolphin killer Japanese won't have a bar of them any more.

As I have repeatedly said its about money! Selling parts and labour for 4t's for the factory and its dealer network. The japs all went down this route under the green excuse . You can't tell me all the 2t MX bikes in the word put out as much pollution as just one motorbike makers manufacturing plant! And your correct about the clean euro stance it just makes the Jap's decision to go 4t all the more $ based.
Thank goodness for Ktm although the decision to stick with 2t's has made them the biggest selling bike maker out there (I think). I read the 300exc is the biggest selling bike (not quite sure).


In the end its all about money really. Its just a pity they didn't put as much R&D into developing the 2t as they have the 4t then we'd already have what we are rumored to be getting, A gleen green light bike that delivers smooth power at 1/2 the cc's of a 4t LOL!!
OH hold on then you wouldn't have had all these years of paying for valve jobs and tune ups in the middle and made Honda, Kawa and Yamaha heaps of money LOL!!!

A bit cynical I know but thank good Ktm stuck with 2smokers or they'd be gone!

[honda_power]

all the ktm owners are forgetting yamaha still have 2 stokes and for '11 as well... sure they havnt been changed in years... but as all the reviews out there say... why change the best 250 smoker out there :first:

[CHOPPA]

It cost me $920 to rebuild my KX500, That included a new clutch basket, main bearings, conrod kit, piston kit, gasket set, oil seals a V Force reed block and pro circuit silincer!

[warewolf]

I can remember Aprilia demonstrating a direct fuel injection system for a 2 stroke scooter motor quite a few years ago. The claims made for fuel economy, power & low emissions were amazing. Wonder what happened to it?
I've had a hankering to own the last of the Honda CRM's, the Active Radical motor which won it's class in the Paris Dakar first time out. If my memory is to be trusted, it fired on compression up to 4000rpm & then the spark plug kicked in. :shit:Great power, reliability & fairly low emissions but again just disappeared. Shame.Other way 'round, low rpm is spark ignition, as it revs up there's no need for spark.

Clean burning injected 2Ts are not new. Snowmobiles use them. Just need to get them in to bikes. Possibly size & weight is still a problem, but you can bet the chaps at KTM are looking at this. Aaaaaand, don't KTM have some kind of corporate partnership with BRP? Wonder why?!

Some reading: The Future of Two-Strokes And Dirt Bikes
(http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/future-of-two-strokes.html)Also, BRP Ski-Doo Technolgies (http://www.ski-doo.com/en-US/Technologies/Index.htm), click engine technology video.
(pinched from a thread elsewhere)

[motor_mayhem]

Firstly depends how you have set the power valve spring and jetting up. From what Booom said when he rode yours on Cave wetas ride my 200 has more bottom than your 300 and that is not the bike, its how you have set it up? So you might find a big big difference between each 300exc bike. So therefore the difference could be very large between the 350 and your 300 2T.
But in saying that, the four stroke vs 2t of today will always deliver more tractable power right through!
Secondly as far as we know direct injection in 2'ts is still a rumor!!
Although the thought has occurred to me when it comes and they make 2t's deliver power like 4t's what do we ride for fun then?? LOL!!!
Probably ride faster, which is the reason why the new four strokes are successful. As you say, the closer-to-linear power delivery just makes them easier to ride faster.


As I have repeatedly said its about money! Selling parts and labour for 4t's for the factory and its dealer network. The japs all went down this route under the green excuse . You can't tell me all the 2t MX bikes in the word put out as much pollution as just one motorbike makers manufacturing plant! And your correct about the clean euro stance it just makes the Jap's decision to go 4t all the more $ based.
Thank goodness for Ktm although the decision to stick with 2t's has made them the biggest selling bike maker out there (I think). I read the 300exc is the biggest selling bike (not quite sure).


In the end its all about money really. Its just a pity they didn't put as much R&D into developing the 2t as they have the 4t then we'd already have what we are rumored to be getting, A gleen green light bike that delivers smooth power at 1/2 the cc's of a 4t LOL!!
OH hold on then you wouldn't have had all these years of paying for valve jobs and tune ups in the middle and made Honda, Kawa and Yamaha heaps of money LOL!!!

A bit cynical I know but thank good Ktm stuck with 2smokers or they'd be gone!

KTM had to stick with 2T (niche market but still plenty big enough) for the die hard fans as they don't seem to compete with the japs at making robust quality without charging you the earth to own it.

How do you know that it's not just about producing the fastest/most powerful bike because a lot of people want to own that machine?

And also there's been a crapload of talk of direct injection but I haven't seen any results so the rumours that they are cleaner and greener and more powerful are just that - rumours.

[yokel]

i dont think anyones denying the fact that the 4 strokes are faster... what we are saying is the 2 strokes are more fun, and cheaper to maintain. if i was racing id consider a four stoke... but id always have a smoker next to it in the shed :)

I'm denying that 4 strokes are faster :shutup:

But will say that at 250 is faster than a 125 and a 450 is faster than a 250 if you catch my drift :yes:

[camchain]

Yep, I'm with you guys who say it's really all about fun, that's what it all boils down to, especially for weekend warriors. Hard to beat that mental grin you get when you pull the wire tight, get it on the pipe, and let that slightly bonkers 2 stroke power do it's thing.
Was remembering today I had an RD400 years ago - more fun than a barrell of monkeys.

Maybe marry a 4-stroke, but have a 2-stroke on the side as your slutty mistress?

I'd often thought a 2t could be made to run a lot cleaner with some sort exhaust valve to stop fuel charge getting blown out the pipe. Cheese put up a link a little while ago with a Honda test engine like this.

Some Aussie Co designs injection for 2 strokes and they use it for scooters, so it can't be that expensive to implement on a dirt bike.
I'm not so sure 2 strokes are here to stay though, only takes a beauraucrat or two to stuff things up if the weather gets too wonky.

Parts sales sure might have something to do with manufacturers being keen on making them Reckless, but people ultimately buy what they want. I don't see why they need to have them tuned the max though, just add more cc with lower compression.

Edit: http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/future-of-two-strokes.html Good link Warewolf, very interesting reading other pages related. (Shit, Honda really decided to go anti 2t and 'lead the way'). Seems like a very bright guy but shame he hasn't built his engine yet. Is a big fan of John Britten too. Reminded also of that NZ Buckley 2-stroke GP bike that died when they went to 4 strokes. Must have been plenty of ideas that went down the drain there.

[vazza]

all the ktm owners are forgetting yamaha still have 2 stokes and for '11 as well... sure they havnt been changed in years... but as all the reviews out there say... why change the best 250 smoker out there :first:

Are the 11's the same as the 2010 yz250? I didn't even know they made a 2010 yz250

[barty5]

Are the 11's the same as the 2010 yz250? I didn't even know they made a 2010 yz250

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/30/0/home.aspx

[CHOPPA]

2010 yz250!!

[honda_power]

looks cool, but the 10's and 11's are just bng

[scott411]

its a shame to see the 2 stroke die, but in truth the sales of them killed them, since the 250F came out we would have sold approx 8-10 to 1 of the four strokes to the 2 strokes,

and there is a mass movement away from strokes in weed eaters etc as well,

i have been told that DI is still a problem for single cylinder 2 strokes, apprantly it takes a lot of electrical power to run the whole DI system and it takes a lot of torque to run it, not so much of a problem with 2 or more cylinders but an issue with a single,

both kawasaki and yamaha have the technoligy with there marine engines for DI, but neither have put it into two strokes bikes,

and also the complete lack of race ready jap 2 stroke enduro bikes, the last ones that really were close to the mark were the 89 KDX200 and the 89 RMX250, all the rest after that were pretty average as a race bike,

[george formby]

I have recently watched DVD's of Chris Birch & David Knight being the fastest extreme riders on the planet, on 2 strokes. Says it all for me.
When I was a mud grub I just found 2 strokes far less tiring to ride. Mind you, I have yet to try a modern 4 stroke enduro.