wet paint..

[bugjuice]

Got the monthly email from Megarider, and this is in it.. Thought it was an interesting read, and might be grounds for a petition to the government about the ongoing problem of road markings in the wet..

<blockquote>I came across your website while doing some research on a problem I have
been trying to highlight for a year now, with mixed success. Personally I
have sorted out my issue, but I think there is a national problem that
affects all road-users on two wheels.

I have been riding bikes for 15 years, and never had problems with
roadmarking paint until I arrived in NZ. Every biker you talk to has a near
miss story, usually when applying the brakes in the wet. I had several
heart stoppers near my previous home in West Auckland, until last November,
on my new bike.

I approached a stop sign, it was sunny but the road had a light coating of
rain from earlier, and as I applied the front brake gently at under 10kph
the front wheel skidded on the white lettering spelling (ironically) STOP.

As you can imagine, I was furious, the damage was slight but I knew I had
done nothing wrong and was not about to lose my no claims bonus or pay for
it, so I took it up with the council.

After trying to fob me off they came and inspected the site, then passed
the buck to Transit. Transit tried to fob me off too, but they sent out a
technician to assess the paint. I argued that if a rider could not safely
apply brakes on the surface in any conditions then the system was
inadequate and Transit was failing in their duty to the public. They spent
some weeks reviewing it, then declined my claim, telling me to "adjust my
riding style in the wet"!

I went ballistic, and insisted on seeing the report. Contrary to my
expectations the surveyor had agreed with me, stating there was no evidence
of anything but careful driving. At this point I requested the
specifications of the paint system under the Official Information Act, and
found that it had not been applied in accordance with the document. This
prompted another investigation, at which point I contacted the Minister for
Transport pointing out the grave danger posed to NZ motorcyclists by
inadequate road marking paint. Only recently a Wellington cyclist had died
after skidding on such paint.

Finally Transit admitted that their sub-contractor had not put non-skid
granules in the paint, and paid for full repairs on my bike, and the
Minister assured me that it was an isolated incident, and nationally there
was no problem.

I now live in Wellington, where the poor cyclist was killed by slippery
white paint, and I can tell you quite categorically that as soon as it is
wet the paint surface is as slippery as ice. There is a national problem on
the roads, cyclists are at risk. In a car there is exactly the same loss of
grip, but the other three wheels compensate. On two wheels we do not have
that luxury.

Something needs to be done. I have tried accessing information from
Statistics NZ and ACC on causes of accidents, but they cannot give me it
(or cannot be bothered trying). The insurance industry is aware of the
problem, but do not feel there are enough accidents attributable to road
markings to warrant the resources necessary to tackle the problem. The
general opinion seems to be that as riders we are all aware of the risk and
make a conscious effort to avoid road paint. Is this right? Just because it
is common, should we stand for it?

I suppose what annoys me is the fact that it is just a matter of
maintenance.

When applied properly, the road markings have sufficient grip for safe
braking, but it wears off quickly as the glass particles become loose or
are covered with debris. I cannot understand why a rubberised paint has not
been developed similar to that used on marine decks, which maintains its
grip as it wears down through the layers.

It all comes down to cost, and no doubt the bean counters have decided that
it is not worth spending millions to save a few injuries and the occasional
death.

My next port of call is the NZ motorcycle press. I hope that if I can get
every biker who has been affected by the problem to harass Transit and
their local MP's, something might get done. I would value your opinion.</blockquote>

Just thought it was a good read..

[John]

Bloody oath that’s to true!

Good read, would be nice to see the problem remedied, I even have problems in the dry on these damn lines up here especially at intersections, pisses me off when I am banked over and the back end just goes for a slide with minimal power put down, sometimes its my fault but not always.

Wonder if this would come of anything with the roading budget, could put our tickets to good use.

[placidfemme]

Awesome topic... I agree... something should be done about this...

[Pwalo]

I have to agree that at the first sign of road the road signs are a real hazard.

I'd also like to add the overbanding that's been done around Wellington as another problem for motorcyclists and cyclists. I'm sure that this is a quick and cheap way of repairing gaps in asphalt but I've had the odd front and rear wheel slip over these repairs. Perhaps I should start hassling the council.

[vifferman]

Quote: "The general opinion seems to be that as riders we are all aware of the risk and make a conscious effort to avoid road paint. Is this right? Just because it is common, should we stand for it?"

Well that's certainly true for me. Part of my commuting habit is to avoid riding on any painted surfaces, or any other surfaces that are likely to be slippery (e.g., the greasy middle bit before it's been thoroughly washed by rain) wherever possible. Unfortunately, this isn't always practicable.

It would be more effective, I guess, if we all made a habit of writing to complain about any slippery paint, personhole covers on corners, etc. If the dribble of complaints became a barrage, and was accompanied by letters to the editor, or MPs, then I'm sure we could effect some improvements to the road surface.

[GROOMER]

It would be a different story if the transport minister or other authoritative figure was a serious biker!

[v.ros`]

well If someone knows the addrss where we can launch a complain, please post it and we can all write / mail to them...

I have always avoided the white marking on the road - even in dry weather as sometimes when u go over them, your bike sort of skids and feels wierd.... so better avoid it.

Regards

[bugjuice]

but the other thing on that comment - when you stop at lights, stop/give way junctions etc, what's right across your path? doesn't matter what you do to avoid it, you'll ride on it at some point.. I bloody hate tippy toeing around paint. Like the idiots when the put arrows in the middle of the road on a corner! Bad enough you can't see the paint in dark conditions in the wet, then you see it when you're already on top of it and too late!!

Do internet petitions count for anything? That way, we have the power of a thou or so KBers.. that's a start.. We can look into press notices/coverage etc too.
Bike shops would probably be keen to help out too..

[badlieutenant]

this guy needs a medal. Shame on us for been apathetic really.
any help or support he needs Ill be there. Councils and the roading authority have to wake up.
The other roading issue Id like to see cleaned up is road markings on road works and better sweeping of gravel after they have finished new road works.
Make em liable!! then the bean counters can factor that in and I bet it will then get sorted.

[bugjuice]

this guy eed a edal. shame on us for been apathetic really.
any help or support he needs Ill be there. Councils and the roading authority have to wake up.
The other roading issue Id like to see cleaned up is road markings on road works and better sweeping of gravel after they have finished new road works.
Make em liable!! then the bean counters can factor that in and I bet it will then get sorted.
also a good point.. I laid my bike down after catching gravel three weeks after I bought it. I was pissed as to scuff the side up. I just let it go tho, but I should have gone after the council about it. Bit late now, but they should sweep up once in a while. Doesn't cost a whole heap to drive their giant vacuum cleaners around when they finish laying the roads

fuk, my bro is still having problems with his broken leg 5 months after he crashed from sliding off the road from all the gravel that was slightly just off the side. He's going to quite possibly go back into hospital with it again, just cos the gravel was in the wrong place on the road. Can the council be liable for stuff like that? Don't want cash from it, just want it cleared up!!!

Sort out the paint and the gravel on the roads!!!!!!!!!

[Sniper]

NIce one mate

[eliot-ness]

Good on him whoever he is for having the nous to do something about it. We've all had a whinge about these problems over the years but done nothing. The idea that beaurocrats are infalilble seem to have been impressed on us for so long that we are beginning to believe it. In another thread I jokingly made the comment that they were leaving the sand out of the paint to save money. Seems I wasn't too far out

[Mr Skid]

Sort out the paint and the gravel on the roads!!!!!!!!!I reckon the solution would be to rip up the seal and make all the roads gravel, then there'd be no risk of getting 'caught out' by loose metal on the road. :yes:

[bugjuice]

I reckon the solution would be to rip up the seal and make all the roads gravel, then there'd be no risk of getting 'caught out' by loose metal on the road. :yes:
sometimes we want to corner with both wheels inline tho.. or not be sprayed when following fellow bikers by bullet-like stones!
I have a stone in my visor that nearly made it all the way thru. Just glad I had my visor down when it happened

[Paul in NZ]

Nah! This is a Bloody good post and top marks to the bloke!

Another hazard is stopping on the bloody markings at the lights and trying to get friggin traction when you take off! lets face it if an underbraked under powered shitter like the Guzzi has problems god knows what grief the rest of you must suffer.

It's not just the paint though! Roading contractors appear to be getting a bit bloody slap dash (probably $$ driven by govt and council) all round!

The problem is.. If they recoqnise the problem and it turns out to be cheaper to ban bikes than do a proper job of the road... um....

Paul N

[Mr Skid]

sometimes we want to corner with both wheels inline tho.. Where's the fun in that?

[MSTRS]

This problem is not new. We all learn to avoid the paint areas esp when wet, sometimes a painful lesson. Does anyone know if NZ is the only country with this problem?

[Waylander]

This problem is not new. We all learn to avoid the paint areas esp when wet, sometimes a painful lesson. Does anyone know if NZ is the only country with this problem?

States have the same problem. You just don't hear about it to often cause most of the country is flat therefore the paint really isnt a worry. They do tell you though that when riding in the rain you should avoid all paint markings though.

[bugjuice]

Where's the fun in that?
cos I'm still gettin me knee down. In gravel you get your knee down, closely follow by the leg, hips, forearm, upper arm, waist, side of torso, shoulder, back, head, front, back, front, back, front, air, front, back sliiiiiiiiide, side, bum.



MSTRS - I don't know if we're the only country with the problem, but the point is; it's a problem.
Why put up with it? If it were your pride and joy that hits the deck, when you've done nothing different to any other time, but it was just on some paint you didn't see cos it's torrential rain and dark, you'd just take it on the chin?

Waylander - they advise to to avoid the paint, fairy fluff, but sometimes you have no option. You HAVE to cross paint all the time. There is no way you can ride thru junctions without crossing paint. So what do you do then? bunny hop?

[Ixion]

I reckon the solution would be to rip up the seal and make all the roads gravel, then there'd be no risk of getting 'caught out' by loose metal on the road. :yes:
Paint would not be a problem either

[Ixion]

Over the last 30 odd years I've written to pretty well every body involved with the paint on roads proble, central government, local bodies, everybody I could think of. Numerous times for most of them

The UNIVERSAL response has been a polite "get f**ked". Their attitude is that if cages don't have a problem there is no problem. The attitude is pretty well summed up in a response I received about the paint at the bottom of Anzac Ave " The problem is simply motorcyclists going too fast".

I know of several biker fatalities directly caused by paint on roads.

It is totally a matter of cost. Nothing else. There are paint systems available that are non skid (even assuming the it is necessary to have so much of the damn stuff). They are not used becasue they cost more and motorcyclists lives are not considered worth anything.

The only way it will ever change is a massive direct action campaign.

[MSTRS]

MSTRS - I don't know if we're the only country with the problem, but the point is; it's a problem.
Why put up with it? If it were your pride and joy that hits the deck, when you've done nothing different to any other time, but it was just on some paint you didn't see cos it's torrential rain and dark, you'd just take it on the chin?


Yep - my safety is my problem. I ride to the conditions. I do not hold with all this current bullshit re 'dangerous roads'. It is how they are used that can be dangerous. By your reasoning, all road users are dangerous & 'something needs to be done'. What? Ban them?
I'm not having a go - it's just what I think.

[Waylander]

...The only way it will ever change is a massive direct action campaign.


Then let's do it.Nothing will change with us just sitting around bitching about this stuff online. If the government thinks this is a non issue lets make it one for them.

[Biff]

Biff honks the newbie here horn.

I must admit that I've had to adjust my riding style since moving here, particularly due to the lazy/miserly way in which roads are 'sealed' here. All that appears to happen (in basic, can't be arsed to really find out terms) is that some truck turns up with a couple of tons of loose gravel on it, dumps it on the road which is then pressed into the road surface a little, then that's it. No effort whosoever is made to clean up the gravel that's left over, causing a potential death trap for motorcyclists, not forgetting the damage it does to the paintwork of cars and bikes.

And as for the paint on the road - a fkin disgrace.

Ok - Who do I write to? Local authority? LTSA?

[MSTRS]

[I].

Ok - Who do I write to? Local authority? LTSA?
Try the Tooth Fairy

[Waylander]

Yea who do we write to about this?I'm thinking someone sends a letter to them with all the riders signitures that they can find in thier area on it. If that doesn't get a response then everyone hop on thier bikes and ride to thier offices. Orginize the rides to happen on the same day so that it gets major news coverage and then something might happen.

[TonyB]

but the other thing on that comment - when you stop at lights, stop/give way junctions etc, what's right across your path? doesn't matter what you do to avoid it, you'll ride on it at some point.. I bloody hate tippy toeing around paint. Like the idiots when the put arrows in the middle of the road on a corner!
Bloody good post Buggy. If you ever ride throught the Haast Pass from Hokitika to Wanaka, there are heaps of one way bridges on the west coast side. They paint "ONE WAY BRIDGE" in fuggen great letters so that it covers the whole lane. If that's not bad enough, they seem to deliberately do this on corners!!!!!!!!.....in one of the wetter places on earth....I kid you not. Take a look next time your down that way, it's absolutely unbelieveable!

[bugjuice]

Yep - my safety is my problem. I ride to the conditions. I do not hold with all this current bullshit re 'dangerous roads'. It is how they are used that can be dangerous. By your reasoning, all road users are dangerous & 'something needs to be done'. What? Ban them?
I'm not having a go - it's just what I think.
no, I agree and see where you're coming from, and I know this isn't going to change much in the way people act on the roads.
But, I don't want to drop my bike because no matter how cautious I am, the tyre will not grip the paint. The point is that the roads are dangerous in the wet because the wrong type of paint is applied. I ride like a granny in the wet, I've still had heart-stopping slides. I can't ride any slower, else I'd be quicker walking! I just want to ride with confidence in the wet, not a loon.

Same goes for that shit (tar) they put down the cracks of the roads. Dominion road is fukin terrible for that. It's like riding on ice!


So what do we do? Do online petitions hold any water? Do we write to the council as a start to 'air' our anger then a petition? That's a start I guess. We can bitch about it till the cows ride home, don't change anything. Now would be a good time as the budget/financial year is being planned (isn't it...??) and the winter is well and truely here and the rain isn't going to ease for a while yet.

[phantom]

Some developer is putting in a big new subdivision just down our road ( used to be a couple of houses away from the paddocks and wide open spaces - now its a playground for bulldozers ) so the road is covered in a mixture of clay, gravel and whatever else falls off the back of the trucks especially on the corner. No biggy in the car but on the bike I have to keep my wits about me ( what there is left )

[MSTRS]

Guys - I don't disagree with the fact that roadmarkings are not fun, it's just that they are a small part of the danger we face out there. The powers-that-be have no interest in fixing this one, but if a concerted national effort is made to get it rectified then I will happily support it.

[Paul in NZ]

Hmm...

Just a thought but... Those massive painted bus lanes... They don't seem to be slippery when wet do they? And bikes are supposed to be allowed to use em so it IS possible...

Cheers

[TonyB]

Hmm...

Just a thought but... Those massive painted bus lanes... They don't seem to be slippery when wet do they? And bikes are supposed to be allowed to use em so it IS possible...

Cheers
Cycle lanes are painted red in Chch...

[Mr Skid]

cos I'm still gettin me knee down. In gravel you get your knee down, closely follow by the leg, hips, forearm, upper arm, waist, side of torso, shoulder, back, head, front, back, front, back, front, air, front, back sliiiiiiiiide, side, bum.
Sounds like you need more practice. I notice you got everything down, except for the sole of your boot. Mebbe give that a go next time?

There is no way you can ride thru junctions without crossing paint. So what do you do then? bunny hop?
I'd imagine a trials bike would be quite capable of this.

[bugjuice]

Sounds like you need more practice. I notice you got everything down, except for the sole of your boot. Mebbe give that a go next time?

I'd imagine a trials bike would be quite capable of this.
you put your boot down on the sweeper of Puke and tell me that..

and a trail bike would be easy. You wanna tril hopping my bike? And can you do it consecutively over GIVE WAY or SCHOOL CROSSING AHEAD.....??



RE: Bus lanes and cycle lanes - exactly. Can be done.. Still don't trust them, but they give me a bit more confidence than the white lines. Might try some skidding in the car next time and see the difference

[Ixion]

Then let's do it.Nothing will change with us just sitting around bitching about this stuff online. If the government thinks this is a non issue lets make it one for them.We (bikers) used to do such things years ago. Stopped quite a bit of bad stuff. Then bikers got all wimpy .

It's surprising how much disruption even 100 motorcycles can cause if they all turn up outside some government office.And 100 leather clad bikers demanding to see the bod in charge. National coverage guaranteed.

Problem is, organising them to turn up.

[XP@]

Then let's do it.Nothing will change with us just sitting around bitching about this stuff online. If the government thinks this is a non issue lets make it one for them.

We need road paint, exactly the same stuff as they use on the road. I only have a little bit of money (well actually I am totally skint, but it is a worthy cause) so I will provide all the anti slip granuals we will need.

here they are "....."

We take the road paint and paint the steps of the parliment. I think it will look good with white steps. I think the pavement outside ACC could also do with a new, white look.

A nice, asthetic addition would be black lines on the edge of the steps. like the tar snakes the use to join the road with. This would be payback for the brown-trou moment on the huge patch of the stuff on SH1 southbound just north of Tawa.

If we did this then I would look forward to coming to work in the rain. I may even spend a rainy lunchtime sat in the parliment grounds watching the Ambulances go by.

(Disclaimer: I would not really do this, I only feel like doing this. There are other less disruptive ways to demonstrate this, like a letter writing campaign or just riding around the paint)

[bugjuice]

k, so what to do? Do we write a letter to the LTNZ claiming that unless we hear and see some action to rectify the problem, that we will then set a date for a protest ride for a hearing?

[Waylander]

Tell me where to start.

[Waylander]

k, so what to do? Do we write a letter to the LTNZ claiming that unless we hear and see some action to rectify the problem, that we will then set a date for a protest ride for a hearing?
We might have to start off a little nicer than that. Like letters with signitures and proof that the paintings are dangerous to bikers. Then if that is ignored we step up to subtley stated threats.

[MSTRS]

Letterbombs would get their attention :devil2:

[Waylander]

I'm serious about this folks. Just tell me where to start and where I can get info about the kind of paint used, known cases of them causes wrecks and kinds of paint that could be used instead. Then I'll add it all into a letter and send a copy around for people to sign. I'll be sending it in the mail since I'm not sure how much credince is givin to web petitions. I'm sure everyone on here knows someone on here they can send it to so that it gets around to all the active users atleast. This could be a step in a direction that makes bikers more respsected and not have us just doged off to the side in matters of safty by the ACC and government.

[bugjuice]

just quickly knocked up this idea I got when I first started riding, and found the condition of the roads in the wet, cos that's what it felt like. SHould take a photo of an actual NZ road and do it properly I guess. Do a decent PS job and make the road in the photo the ice rink instead.. But I don't have any decent shots to hand

How we start, I'm not sure. May be an 'official' letter asking for a reason why the roads are painted with such paint, and why it's not been addressed, and what they are doing to solve the issue. If we get a 'piss off' letter, then we write back saying we are concerned bikers who want a remedy, and they still say piss off, then we write one more time (third time lucky) saying that we will petition it, and ride the signitures to their doors in each city (akl, wgtn, chch) at the same time. Get shop backing etc, press will have something new to chew on, might even get your bike on the box.. but until we do something, nothing will change..

[MSTRS]

I'm serious about this folks. Just tell me where to start and where I can get info about the kind of paint used, known cases of them causes wrecks and kinds of paint that could be used instead. Then I'll add it all into a letter and send a copy around for people to sign. I'll be sending it in the mail since I'm not sure how much credince is givin to web petitions. I'm sure everyone on here knows someone on here they can send it to so that it gets around to all the active users atleast. This could be a step in a direction that makes bikers more respsected and not have us just doged off to the side in matters of safty by the ACC and government.
Forget that. It will only fill the coffers at NZPost. Talk to the bike shops/clubs in your area to get a start.

[Waylander]

Forget that. It will only fill the coffers at NZPost. Talk to the bike shops/clubs in your area to get a start.
I'll be doing that aswell. Ok if the mail wont work how about I post it on here and anyone that want's to help can print it off and take it around to the clubs and shops in thier area. Would be good to get groups like Ulysses (sp?) and such behind this. That way it's known that this is not just a bunch of biker gangs stirring up trouble.


Edit: Also if possible I would like Hitcher to proofread and edit out all my gramatical and speling errors. I noticed quite a few after I posted the above.:whistle:

[MSTRS]

I'll be doing that aswell. Ok if the mail wont work how about I post it on here and anyone that want's to help can print it off and take it around to the clubs and shops in thier area. Would be good to get groups like Ulysses (sp?) and such behind this. That way it's known that this is not just a bucnh off biker gangs stirring up trouble.
That's a better idea

[bugjuice]

Big Dave, is this something Kiwi Rider mag could help with?
That'd be a good start Waylander..

[XP@]

Long shot, but we are not the only road users in danger.
Could try contacting cyclists, a joint lobby would be more powerful....

[Lou Girardin]

I agree that the paint issue is important. But, I grew up riding bikes, both motor and pedal and the golden rule was to avoid painted lines (and tram tracks). I still do, I'm not going to rely on some "non-slip" paint.

[eliot-ness]

I agree that the paint issue is important. But, I grew up riding bikes, both motor and pedal and the golden rule was to avoid painted lines (and tram tracks). I still do, I'm not going to rely on some "non-slip" paint.

Just found this info on the web (under 'road marking paint') Nelson City is to introduce new road marking system to cut down on amount of paint used and make roads safer for cyclists. Apparently a new government directive. No mention of motor cyclists but if it works who cares.

[bugjuice]

didn't think there were enough cyclists to make as much noise as bikers, but the more weight to carry it, the better I guess. Shows it's not just for ourselves..

Lou, as I said earlier, I agree with the golden rule, but there's no way you can not ride on the white paint. I'd place good money on bets to see someone make an average trip and miss ALL the white paint on the road, without going out of your way in the trip or putting yourself/others at risk..

[Motu]

Sometime in the 70s my mate dropped his Tiger on some paint in the wet,he was going to write to the council and complain about them painting the roads - we wound him up so much about it he never did....wow,was he 30yrs ahead of his time?

I can't believe this thread,it goes against all my basic theories about riding bikes,I'm with Lou...even if they used non slip paint I still wouldn't ride on painted lines....basic as dog fuck,and that's all I'm saying on this thread.

[TonyB]

The point is:
in many other countries this is not a problem
there are roads that are marked in such a way that it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid the paint- I've seen them
It is possible to have non slip paint for road marking
Apparently the LTSA's own rules call for non slip paint

I doubt wether I'd trust it either after many years of riding, but it would appear that many biker immigrants to NZ are caught out by our slippery paint.
Why put up with it when it can be fixed and it's not even supposed to be the way it is?

[Waylander]

Big Dave, is this something Kiwi Rider mag could help with?
That'd be a good start Waylander..
Yea it would. Question is though, are the willing to print it. Let me do the reaserch and get something typed up then will get it going form there.

[bugjuice]

Sometime in the 70s my mate dropped his Tiger on some paint in the wet,he was going to write to the council and complain about them painting the roads - we wound him up so much about it he never did....wow,was he 30yrs ahead of his time?

I can't believe this thread,it goes against all my basic theories about riding bikes,I'm with Lou...even if they used non slip paint I still wouldn't ride on painted lines....basic as dog fuck,and that's all I'm saying on this thread.
I understand what you and Lou are saying. I'm not gonig to start aiming for the paint if they fixed it. Still stay well away from it, but you cannot ride anywhere without crossing the paint. If you want to or not. There's no choice. period. If we can't choose to ride on the paint or not, we should have the piece of mind that we aren't going to bin it if things aren't going our way, wether you are riding right or not. The fact that they've been doing a crap job for 30 years just shows no one has done anything about it, so everyone just takes crashing as an everyday event. Fuck that. I love my bike, I don't want to have to pay for new fairings and crankcase covers everytime a bit of white paint decides I have to spend money on fixing my bike.

I've ridden a few years in the wet and try to avoid riding in it at all costs. Costs being the pun word there. I'm fukin sick of sliding and shitting myself.
So I'm going to fukin do something about it. If two people on this site are happy with the roads, then great!! Not being sarcastic or looking for a fight or whatever, but I can't see how you're happy to just put up with the status quo.
Hell, they can pick up sand off the base of the sea for next to nothing and throw it in the paint mix for all I know, as long as the paint wants to grip the tyres, then I'm happy.

Same with that shit they put in the cracks of the road. A fukin joke. And we have to ride it..

[Clockwork]

One more vote in the "yes, I'm prepared to protest about this" poll. Where do I sign up?

[Lou Girardin]

Now when this is sorted, how about non-slip diesel.

[TonyB]

Now when this is sorted, how about non-slip diesel.
And 'warming' KY jelly that doesn't end up like glue.............. I've said to much, haven't I....

[Ixion]

Sometime in the 70s my mate dropped his Tiger on some paint in the wet,he was going to write to the council and complain about them painting the roads - we wound him up so much about it he never did....wow,was he 30yrs ahead of his time?

I can't believe this thread,it goes against all my basic theories about riding bikes,I'm with Lou...even if they used non slip paint I still wouldn't ride on painted lines....basic as dog fuck,and that's all I'm saying on this thread.

Well, I've never dropped a bike on paint, but I was writing to councils in the 70's about it. Cos I've had some shit oh shit moments on it. Agreed, always ride to miss it. But there's some places you just can't no matter how weird a line you take. And the process of mssing it may be hazardous in itself. Other road users are not really expecting you to be dancing all over the road.

Also wouldn't ride on white lines no matter how "non slip", by choice.And agreed, it's just another hazard , and it's our job to avoid haxzards.

But sometimes you cant , and sometimes it will catch you out. And if the hazard can be eliminated I don't see why it shouldn't be.

If there was a defect in my bike so that the brakes randomly locked up , I could ride so as to minimise the hazard. But I'd think it a lot more sensible to fix the defect.

There's enough hazards out there that we can't do anything about. If we can eliminate one so much the better.

I'm not optimistic of the chances though, I suspect it will be received with a big "Dangerous to bikes? Who gives a f**k. So much the better, it'll discourage them from being on the roads".

[spudchucka]

Now when this is sorted, how about non-slip diesel.
Don't forget the non-slip cow shit. Surely there is an additive that could be included in the bovine diet or perhaps we could just gentically modify the grass they eat so that its by product is more"grippy".

[Lou Girardin]

Don't forget the non-slip cow shit. Surely there is an additive that could be included in the bovine diet or perhaps we could just gentically modify the grass they eat so that its by product is more"grippy".

Immodium in their feed.
It might not make it non-slip, but it will be in easier to miss, large, hard lumps.

[Jonty]

Also, while we are at it we should end all gravel roads!! I mean I used to live down south where tarmac was a luxury, white lines and all, try doing 100Kph on a shingle corner

[Ixion]

Also, while we are at it we should end all gravel roads!! I mean I used to live down south where tarmac was a luxury, white lines and all, try doing 100Kph on a shingle corner

Sideways ? Mr Skid, eductate this person.

[Paul in NZ]

And 'warming' KY jelly that doesn't end up like glue.............. I've said to much, haven't I....

Nah! You are just in the wrong thread...

Paul N

ps - I don't remember it being so cold in ChCh when we lived there that we had to use warming KY jelly. Just buy a heater !

[250learna]

That was a great read. Very impressed the way he followed it up and got what he deserved. :niceone: It would be nice if we could have an online patition and try to do something about this.

My car is front wheel driven, and on some very expensive tyres, but when it wet and i park on the lines at the lights, the wheels can sometimes loose grip under anything more than very gental acceleration. So the cars arent imune to this either but obviously nowhere nearly as effected as the two wheeled alternatives :ride: .

I would be realy keen to support action taken towards ensuring safer roads for everyone.

[gav]

Hmmm, I want to know how he managed to fall off in a straight line just because he locked his front brake? He wasn't able to react quick enough, so hes blaming someone else? Obviously he wasnt paying attention, just a moaning bastard, wheres he from anyway? Fuck, while you're at how about protesting to bike manufacturers that ABS should be compulsary? And another letter to tyre manufacturers so that a tyre has traction on slippery surfaces. C'mon admit it, how many wind it on and spin up the rear on those slick glass like intersections? Course you do, thats what bikings about isn't it? How about local councils, and thats who your beef should be with, just banning motorcycles from inner city complexes? Make you all happy won't it? But, but, but....at least you'll be safer, can't have you risking getting hurt now, can we? Its for your own good.....

[Mr Skid]

Also, while we are at it we should end all gravel roads!! I mean I used to live down south where tarmac was a luxury, white lines and all, try doing 100Kph on a shingle corner
Sideways ? Mr Skid, eductate this person.
Gladly:

1) Approach corner
2) Steer into corner
3) Wide open throttle
4) Moderate throttle as required
5) Rinse, lather, repeat

[Mr Skid]

My car is front wheel driven, and on some very expensive tyres, but when it wet and i park on the lines at the lights, the wheels can sometimes loose grip under anything more than very gental acceleration.Try not dumping the clutch from redline. Let us know how it goes.

[Big Dave]

It would be a different story if the transport minister or other authoritative figure was a serious biker!


Be too much to hope for - The Hon Rick Barker (Minister for Customs - still?) and I are Thunderbird bruddahs.

[badlieutenant]

Don't forget the non-slip cow shit. Surely there is an additive that could be included in the bovine diet or perhaps we could just gentically modify the grass they eat so that its by product is more"grippy".
or they could just put signs up warning us that there is a stock crossing point up ahead...........oh thats been done :niceone:

[250learna]

Try not dumping the clutch from redline. Let us know how it goes.

i did say moderate acceleration didnt i? I dont redline on the starts i leave that for idiots. :weird: And the car gets traction once over the lines.

im just highlighting how much less grip there is on the lines, as when i am not on the lines same take off is no swet.

[Zapf]

well... anyone up for typing up a draft letter. Posting up. So everyone can download, sign and post to wellington within a short period of time.

And we can repeat the process... and we can also all the bike mags to insert a copy of the letter to be tear out by the readers and sent in.

[inlinefour]

Ride to the conditions, don't expect the conditions to change for you. I locked both wheels on road markings ONCE. Had a total sense of respect from there on and it has never left me.

[badlieutenant]

I should care that there is apathy here :/

[dhunt]

Yip I'm all for it :niceone: Had a off at the lights last year on a white arrow at < 5km. Just lost the front end. Ended up having to get another indicator :mad: As well as bike tyres being less gripped try putting your foot down on the paint I've nearly lost it when I've put my foot down and my foot starts sliding as well.

[inlinefour]

Yip I'm all for it :niceone: Had a off at the lights last year on a white arrow at < 5km. Just lost the front end. Ended up having to get another indicator :mad: As well as bike tyres being less gripped try putting your foot down on the paint I've nearly lost it when I've put my foot down and my foot starts sliding as well.

Stay off the paint...

[bugjuice]

Stay off the paint...
it's not always an option. You can ride everywhere without touching a single bit of white lining?

Manhole covers. You can ride and avoid virtually every manhole cover in the wet. Give ya that.. but paint, nope.. :no:

I'l find the time to write something this weekend and post it up. Do you think in this modern day of technology, an email is acceptable, or should it still be snail mail?

There's a new ad campaign on TV at the moment, saying 'they' are doing their bit to make the roads safer (shows a road works sign, and the words underneath 'Dangerous bend ahead' then the little dude smacks the 'Dangerous' bit off the sign), so now might be a good time to start kicking up a small stink and see what happens.

It's unrealistic to think that they will repaint every surface around, that's a bit ott, but as long as they start to use the right stuff from now onwards, then it's a start

[FlyingDutchMan]

Isn't there some health & saftey thing saying "must take all reasonable steps to prevent injury" etc etc? I recon that using grippy paint on roads is a reasonable step.

[XP@]

Well, it's friday lunch time again... so i decided to google it a little bit...
this is one technical subject!

I have not been able to locate any evidence of antiskid testing for road marking paint. A comparison of antiskid propreties for different paint/aggrigate mixes would be interesting. This could be overlaid with the durability (as tested on the paint trails dotted throuought the country).

the best i could come up with is:
http://www.highwaysmaintenance.com/Markdata.html

and a quote from the Oxfordshire Draft Highway maintenace policy:


Skid resistance measurements of road markings shall also be carried out at Critical sites (25% of identified sites to be surveyed annually, on a continuous 4 year cycle).


and a question posed to the European Commisson, it is not a bad answer but euro dollars still rule over lives. Not that I would recommend NZ adopted every european rule...



Current standards are too infrequent. Problems also arise with pitch, which is used to make minor repairs to road surfaces. However, in rainy conditions, pitch becomes very slippery. Motorcycles skid very easily on such surfaces, and the braking distance becomes longer. In addition, the material used is not longlasting. There are, nevertheless, road repair products which are safer and which last longer.

Is the Commission aware of these problems?

What measures is the Commission taking to prevent slippery road surfaces and road markings?

Does the Commission have any information about alternatives to conventional paints used for road markings, and what is its opinion thereof?



Answer given by Mrs de Palacio on behalf of the Commission (27 May 2003)

The Commission is very concerned about the dangerous condition of certain stretches of road and skid resistance is an important determinant for the level of safety of a road. However, it is to be recalled that the maintenance of roads including the proper use of road markings and pavements is the competence of Member States.
Upon mandate of the Commission, CEN (1) has adopted a standard on materials for road markings that provide a good grip even when the road is wet (norm EN 1423:1997
Road marking materials drop on
materials
Glass beads and anti-skid aggregates and mixtures of them). As to road bound pavements CEN/TC 227 is about to prepare a standard on products, which will be subject to CE marking on the basis of the Construction Products Directive (Council Directive 89/106/EEC of 21 December 1988 on the
approximation of laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States relating to construction products (2)) once the standard is adopted. The quality classes defined in these norms allow road authorities to procure much better performing materials than paint without such additives.
Once such markings and pavements are in place, their skid resistance needs to be controlled. At this point in time, each Member State uses one or two in a total of twelve different models of measuring devices for skid resistance. In an attempt to create safety conditions comparable between the different Member States, CEN group TC 227 WG 5 is developing a draft standard defining a uniform procedure to determine skid resistance from a dynamic measurement.

The Commission supports these activities though the research projects Format (maintenance of road pavements) and Silvia (low noise pavements), both of which were launched in 2002. In its work programme of 2003, the Commission has announced to submit to Parliament and Council a Directive on
black spot management and road safety audits. With such procedures in place, it is possible to identify sections of high risk and develop remedial measures in a cost effective way and target to safety critical sections on spots in the network.

(1) Committee European Normalisation.
(2) OJ L 40, 11.2.1989.

[XP@]

This is interesting... (year 1999)
http://www.nzrf.co.nz/spec_chlorinatedrubber.htm

shows primary choice is reflectivity,
and evidently skid resistance:



Although the lines gave a lower result than the adjacent seal, the difference between the two was 9-13 BPR (Refectorised/Non Reflectorised) on the waterborne test sites. The readings on Pakowhai were lower for both the seal and line, but the difference between the two remained the same and was due to the seal age.

Readings on the Alkyd markings also gave lower readings than the adjacent seal, but the differences were 19-22 BPR (Reflectorised/Non Reflectorised).

Since our testing, we believe that the difference between the seal and line readings was not a significant factor. The skid resistance is more reliant on the surface condition.

If you need to minimise the difference then your best option from our testing would be to use reflectorised waterborne lines.

[bugjuice]

wow, so to sum it up, they know about it, but they just want to talk some more.
brain fried.

Either way of how they look at the road surface or paint quality, they are in control of both, so fix one or the other, or both, surely? I know this isn't NZ, but as far as road conditions go.

The other point to bring in on a related matter, when it does rain, the road markings dissapear almost all together! The dark doesn't help, but I know they can't fix anything about the night sky at the moment. And roads that don't have cateyes inline, then it's just a guess at where to go..

thanks for looking that up..

[Wolf]

You can ride and avoid virtually every manhole cover in the wet. Give ya that.. but paint, nope..

I've been avoiding white paint as much as I can for years but there are places where the local council has gone mental and slathered the shit everywhere. I noted some intersections in the Auckland CBD where they marked every possible lane through the intersection - straight through, left and right turns. It did not look as though it is possible to turn at those intersections without encountering at least one white line marked at a tangent to your direction.

[Ixion]

I've been avoiding white paint as much as I can for years but there are places where the local council has gone mental and slathered the shit everywhere. I noted some intersections in the Auckland CBD where they marked every possible lane through the intersection - straight through, left and right turns. It did not look as though it is possible to turn at those intersections without encountering at least one white line marked at a tangent to your direction.

PLUS - as well as the arrows there are pedestrian crossing lines, the crossing diamonds, assorted other lines all compressed into one intersection.

[XP@]

Rep points for the best photo of the worst example of road paint use.

[Clockwork]

I can live with the lines, they are generally thin and the lost of grip is only momentary but I think authorities need to be more considerate when painting larger areas such a pedestrian crossings, words & arrows. Manhole covers are also a concern, as they are dark and even harder to see and frequently seem to be place on or around intersections.

It seems to me that LTSA/LTNZ have known about this issue for years and have and have demonstrated a complete unwillingness to address the it. I would have thought the most appropriate place to apply pressure would be the ACC. Injury prevention is a big part of their responsibilities AND they take enough money off motorcylists, perhapse its time we asked them to take the fight up for us.

[Racey Rider]

Would 'Bikers Rights NZ' be of any help to back us?

Once we prove were serious, the insurance council may help with documentation of numbers of accidents caused by the paint.

Once the insurance council is onside, ACC May consider thinking about the issue with us.

Maybe 'FairGo' would consider this issue as something a little different to air on their programme. Are we getting a fair go? 100 Transvesite ( :Oops:wrong thread. I mean leather clad) bikers on government steps may make a good programe!

A "Hic'coy of Hope" biker style over the harbour bridge might be fun. :niceone:

[bugjuice]

I had thought about going to insurance companies etc about claims due to skidding on paint, but I think the number of people who don't claim is far greater, therefore the number wouldn't be a very good representation of accidents caused by it.

Fair Go probably would do it as they love to stirr trouble etc, but that's a fair way off yet. We have to be fair ourselves and start at the beginning. We write a letter, we get a responce. If no, we write again but more firm and to the point. If still a no, then we write one more time and advise of our intentions (petitions, press, rides for protest etc etc) and see what the responce is. If still no, then we start having us some fun. But we have to be fair, else it'll just be a group of bikers stirring up crap, instead of a group of people trying to make NZ roads safer.

[justsomeguy]

I had thought about going to insurance companies etc about claims due to skidding on paint, but I think the number of people who don't claim is far greater, therefore the number wouldn't be a very good representation of accidents caused by it.

Fair Go probably would do it as they love to stirr trouble etc, but that's a fair way off yet. We have to be fair ourselves and start at the beginning. We write a letter, we get a responce. If no, we write again but more firm and to the point. If still a no, then we write one more time and advise of our intentions (petitions, press, rides for protest etc etc) and see what the responce is. If still no, then we start having us some fun. But we have to be fair, else it'll just be a group of bikers stirring up crap, instead of a group of people trying to make NZ roads safer.

I agree:yes:

[dhunt]

Stay off the paint...
Umm good idea. If ONLY YOU COULD.

Arrows sort of take up the whole lane. So not the easiest things to miss. :no:

[Ixion]

Umm good idea. If ONLY YOU COULD.

Arrows sort of take up the whole lane. So not the easiest things to miss. :no:

Particularly those ones that have a straight ahead arrow a left turn arrow and a right turn arrow all combined into one sort of trident shape. They fill the entire lane. You can't avoid it all you can do is try to cross it upright and not braking.

If I had bigger balls I'd try braking hard on one on the BMW, and see if the ABS can cope with it.

[XP@]

Ok,

The LTSA has a "2010 Road Safety Strategy" we would need to take this in to account. The Conclusion (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/strategy-2010/consultation-report-01.html#conclusions) of submissions is to adopt a mixed approach to safety that is policing and improvments to road quality.

By leveraging this strategy and offering the re-specification of anti-skid properties of road paint and joining seal as a cost effective safety measure...

we could have a case and be able to get some money spent...

is there anything else we want whilst we are at it?

[Ixion]

Ok,

..

is there anything else we want whilst we are at it?

Lots and lots of unstraightening to add twisty bits. And removal of the seal and replacement with gravel on the rest. :niceone:

[SuperDave]

I agree on this, with such narrow tyres I have had several close calls in the recent wet weather. Metal manhole covers placing on corners are another bitch.

[XP@]

I agree on this, with such narrow tyres I have had several close calls in the recent wet weather. Metal manhole covers placing on corners are another bitch.
wonder if there is an anti-skid surface that could be placed on manhole covers?
or any new type of cover that could be specified for use with new manholes. I would still think twice about using them to brake/corner on, but if there was no option it would be a nice surprise to stay upright.

[nz rider]

Perhaps some of the money that we pay for our registration could go towards remarking these roads in a safer way. Cheers

[Pixie]

We (bikers) used to do such things years ago. Stopped quite a bit of bad stuff. Then bikers got all wimpy .

It's surprising how much disruption even 100 motorcycles can cause if they all turn up outside some government office.And 100 leather clad bikers demanding to see the bod in charge. National coverage guaranteed.

Problem is, organising them to turn up.
A french work colleague told me he was suprised to see the "cheese slicer "median barriers being installed on highway one.
He told me that when they tried to install them in France large numbers of bikers refused to pay their registration in protest and the wire barriers were canned

[avgas]

I dissagree here, i think people should ride/drive to the conditions - as the saying goes "If you cant swim stay out of the damn water".
Ive seen too much of New Zealands road, chopped up cos people complained cos they didnt have the skill to manage the road at the speed they were doing.
All my lovely twisties are getting removed cos people cant slow down from 100kph to 50 to take the corner then accelerate out.
How would people like it if i made "Bathurst" or "Laguna Seca" safe tracks?
ITS STUPID DECISIONS THAT MAKE CRASHES, NOT ROAD
cant blame a gun for killing a person

[bugjuice]

I dissagree here, i think people should ride/drive to the conditions - as the saying goes "If you cant swim stay out of the damn water".
Ive seen too much of New Zealands road, chopped up cos people complained cos they didnt have the skill to manage the road at the speed they were doing.
All my lovely twisties are getting removed cos people cant slow down from 100kph to 50 to take the corner then accelerate out.
How would people like it if i made "Bathurst" or "Laguna Seca" safe tracks?
ITS STUPID DECISIONS THAT MAKE CRASHES, NOT ROAD
cant blame a gun for killing a person
no but you can blame a person for not using the correct quality of road markings to avoid accidents in the wet.
I think you've missed the point here.. the corners are great, the roads are great, but it's the paint on the roads that's the problem. How people drive/ride is a completely different issue. Don't care about that, it's just the choice you don't have that's the problem. And it's not about how you ride, or where you ride, or whatever. It's the paint you have to cross in your average daily ride. You can be riding as granniefied as you want and still fuck up. If you're fine with that, then great. But like waht was said before, if you can eliminate as many dangers as poss, then why put up with it?

[Clockwork]

A french work colleague told me he was suprised to see the "cheese slicer "median barriers being installed on highway one.
He told me that when they tried to install them in France large numbers of bikers refused to pay their registration in protest and the wire barriers were canned

Seems to me that the French have always had more balls (and success) in telling their Governments "where to get off" than those of us with a more "Anglo" heritage.

[zooter]

Bloody good post Buggy. If you ever ride throught the Haast Pass from Hokitika to Wanaka, there are heaps of one way bridges on the west coast side. They paint "ONE WAY BRIDGE" in fuggen great letters so that it covers the whole lane. If that's not bad enough, they seem to deliberately do this on corners!!!!!!!!.....in one of the wetter places on earth....I kid you not. Take a look next time your down that way, it's absolutely unbelieveable!
I rode that road as a brand spanking newbie. The only time I got the heebie jeebies was on the wooden bridges, slipperry as a wet fish. The moss in the middle of the lanes was cause for alarm but easily avoided.
But the general issue of paint systems seems ready for a solution if enough of us are prepared to take on the crusade. Count me in.

[Ixion]

That's what pisses me off about the paint issue. 50% of it is totally unnecessary. Like painting ONE LANE BRIDGE on the road.

Yeah, it's a bridge. I can sorta see that. Don't actually need anyone to paint it on the road. Anyone riding or driving who DOESN'T know what a bridge is has problems.

And I can see it's one lane. That's why it's uh, sorta NARROW.

All I need to know is, which direction's got right of way.

Painting ONE LANE BRIDGE all over the road achieves nothing. Except introduce an unnecessary hazard.

Incidentally, anyone who reckons you can just avoid the paint, try the left turn out of Queen St into K Rd in Auckland.

Then tell me how you avoid the paint on the lane .

[ZorsT]

I notised in richmond they have stopped using two lines for give way, and insted of writing

WAY
GIVE

they just have a triangle. I guess they have decided that using that much paint is a waste of money?

[eliot-ness]

they just have a triangle. I guess they have decided that using that much paint is a waste of money?[/QUOTE]

As I posted earlier. Changes are already in place. (Check Nelson City. Road marking) on the web. These changes are the the result, apparently, of lobbying by cyclists' No mention of motorcycling safety.Can't say I'm in favour of leaving the old paint to wear off naturally but it's a start. Interesting point. Cyclists are now subject to the same rules as the rest of us re. speeding, dangerous driving etc.. We could take a few lessons from them re lobbying and organisation.
------------------------------------
Save the whales.................collect the whole set

[Waylander]

As I posted earlier. Changes are already in place. (Check Nelson City. Road marking) on the web. These changes are the the result, apparently, of lobbying by cyclists' No mention of motorcycling safety.Can't say I'm in favour of leaving the old paint to wear off naturally but it's a start. Interesting point. Cyclists are now subject to the same rules as the rest of us re. speeding, dangerous driving etc.. We could take a few lessons from them re lobbying and organisation.
------------------------------------
Save the whales.................collect the whole set

Learning from them would be good but it would be better if we can get cyclists to work with us and us with them. Alot of what is dangerous for them is dangerous for us and vice versa. Would certainly give us a louder voice in things.

[inlinefour]

I've been riding going on 25 years now. Generally speaking, I've not really had much of a problem with the paint on the road, that is once I got decient tyres onto my bike. Yea, if your an idiot and throttle hard, then your likely to skid and slide. If your going too fast and break hard, your likely to loose traction and the ability to stop. Now all the complainers, stop. We all have the responsibility to ride to the conditions. If that means we have to ride like some old nana, then so be it. I asked my Uncle once about the paint (worked for the M.O.W), he reckoned that due to costings, it was unlikely to change. Sure enough 15 years on, it is still the same. Most of us riders that have been around a while, treat the road surface with the respect that it deserves. Its not up to the powers that be, to change the road to suit you,. Rather its up to you and I to change our riding style to suit the road surface. I believe that if there is a rider here who is unwilling to do so, then that individual has no right to be on a motorcycle. My registration and insurance premiums are enough. Stupid behaviour will only make them worse... :whistle:

[Jabez]

Ok,

The LTSA has a "2010 Road Safety Strategy" we would need to take this in to account. The Conclusion (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/strategy-2010/consultation-report-01.html#conclusions) of submissions is to adopt a mixed approach to safety that is policing and improvments to road quality.

By leveraging this strategy and offering the re-specification of anti-skid properties of road paint and joining seal as a cost effective safety measure...

we could have a case and be able to get some money spent...

is there anything else we want whilst we are at it?
Yes, How about allowing us to use the motorway bus lanes!!! :mad:

[inlinefour]

Yes, How about allowing us to use the motorway bus lanes!!! :mad:

Dorklanders :weird: :whocares: