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bugjuice
1st June 2005, 11:43
Was nearly taken out this morning by a school kid in daddies merc. :mad: I saw them coming across into my lane and accelerating stupidly in the wet. Ok, so they have traction control, ABS etc, but 'kin come on!! Didn't check the blind spot, and nearly took me out. No sorry, appology etc, just kept going in daddies AMG merc. fukin pisses me off.

What happens when he gets in something (God forbid his silver spooned ass) that he gets into anything less than a merc and does the same thing?

I think we should protest against learner cagers being able to drive whatever mobile death machine they want, instead of being restricted like bikers. Not jealous about this, I think it's a good idea to restrict until experiance is gained.

I reckon all the big bikes should spend the week riding around with 'L' plates on, then when we get stopped, we say why..

Views?

John
1st June 2005, 11:47
Well I would love to see that happen, but we all know that it wouldnt be possible (well for our government anyway) I think dangerous (??) emailed the LTSA about this question.

Just imagine how much better the roads would be in the weekend *dreams* but then it all comes back to the KW at the wheels, to hard to police or so they say, I see many ways how it could be done - it would cost and you know how the government needs their bankroll to stay 'rolling'

placidfemme
1st June 2005, 11:52
Was nearly taken out this morning by a school kid in daddies merc. :mad: I saw them coming across into my lane and accelerating stupidly in the wet. Ok, so they have traction control, ABS etc, but 'kin come on!! Didn't check the blind spot, and nearly took me out. No sorry, appology etc, just kept going in daddies AMG merc. fukin pisses me off.

What happens when he gets in something (God forbid his silver spooned ass) that he gets into anything less than a merc and does the same thing?

I think we should protest against learner cagers being able to drive whatever mobile death machine they want, instead of being restricted like bikers. Not jealous about this, I think it's a good idea to restrict until experiance is gained.

I reckon all the big bikes should spend the week riding around with 'L' plates on, then when we get stopped, we say why..

Views?

I agree it should be done... but unfortunatley our government is too worried about other very important issues (nothing is coming to mind right now... maybe because nothing important is ebing done.... oh well heres to the government :motu: )

Sniper
1st June 2005, 12:02
Take away his licence

bugjuice
1st June 2005, 12:05
Take away his licence
take his lollipop away.. dork..

I know the government is busy, but they're always busy.. they want to reduce the idiots and RTAs on the roads, well this is just another thing to look at, instead of a couple of hundy thous on billboards that people crash when they're reading, or flick the channel in the ads on tv

jazbug5
1st June 2005, 12:24
Actually, I think that's a bloody good idea.
I like the idea of a convoy of over-cc bikes with 'L' plates handing in a petition. If you handed it in to LTNZ offices (although really I s'pose it's a gummint issue..?) then it could be done city by city!

badlieutenant
1st June 2005, 12:28
here is as good a place as any to mention my use of the *555 thingy. Ive used it only once before and that was to report some drunken louts curb crawling alongside school girls and harrasing them.
Yesterday on the way up north near kaitia I was cruising along in the frost mobile at probably about 110 when 3 kaitia transport trucks with trailers (the big ones) catch up to me and overtake with on coming traffic!!!! couldnt beleive it. before the overtake, which wasnt a build up speed then over take, rather a pull out then speed up, they were so close to the back of the van that I was getting buffeted by thier pressure wave. Dangerous arsholes, hope they got it when they got to kaitia as the helpful police were waiting.
I know it would suk to have this done to me (been reported) but there is a slight difference here....mass and I can accelerate faster.
1 truck overtook just before a bend.
Estimated speed of trucks 130-140kms/hr
If a bike at that speed hits a car its likely the rider wil die and possibly kill a passenger (which doesnt make it justifiable) but a truck head on at that speed is death for all in the car Id assume (car doing 100km/hr as well)
thats my bitch for today. :mad:

badlieutenant
1st June 2005, 12:29
oh and yer we should have a graduated (HP vs weight) licensing system here

Coldkiwi
1st June 2005, 12:37
i like the idea of a restriction on the drivers.. but I'm not so sure I want to attract unnecessary attention from the constabulary when I'm on my bike!

TonyB
1st June 2005, 12:42
Yep, good idea. Reckon it has to happen sooner or later. When I was learning to drive (I'm 33) all the boy racers had to play with were Cortinas etc. Usually a Mk3, Mk4 or 5 (Oooo!) if they were lucky. Hardly a fast car. Now you can go out and buy something massively quicker, to drive on roads that are much more congested. In only a few years time a 15 year old school boy is going to be able to easily afford an early WRX or EVO. Some of the less fashionable cars (like earlyish Supra twin turbo's etc) are already dirt cheap. The thought of my kids being able to go out and buy the current model EVO etc when they turn 15 (in 12 and 13 years time) scares me.

Another law that needs revisiting is the 250cc limit. I realise this has probably been done to death, but an RGV250 is a much worse bike for a learner than say an SV650. Some states in Aussie allow learners bikes upto 650cc, they are restricted in some way, but at least they will have a learner freindly torque curve...

badlieutenant
1st June 2005, 12:46
Boy Frosty now you know why those big burly truck drivers will come knocking on your door this arvo!!
nar they'll know it wasnt him. They could see me giving them the fingers and most likely heard me telling them what I thought about them, their geneology and capacity to think and the f word generously used to puntuate said comments

Oakie
1st June 2005, 13:20
[QUOTE=TonyB]Yep, good idea. Reckon it has to happen sooner or later. When I was learning to drive (I'm 33) all the boy racers had to play with were Cortinas etc. Usually a Mk3, Mk4 or 5 (Oooo!) if they were lucky. Hardly a fast car. Now you can go out and buy something massively quicker, to drive on roads that are much more congested. In only a few years time a 15 year old school boy is going to be able to easily afford an early WRX or EVO. Some of the less fashionable cars (like earlyish Supra twin turbo's etc) are already dirt cheap. The thought of my kids being able to go out and buy the current model EVO etc when they turn 15 (in 12 and 13 years time) scares me.

QUOTE]
Yeah, it's all about horsepower rather than CCs but I suppose an easy starting point would be not to allow youngsters or people with a new licence to own or drive a car with a turbo? Perhaps have 20 as a minimum age but also to have had a full license for say 2 years. Won't stop people being stupid in cars but it might limit the speed at which they can be stupid

bugjuice
1st June 2005, 13:26
it's about the power tho. Some huge cc cars produce a nats piss of power, so fine. may be the physical size might be an issue as large cars/4x4s are a lot more to handle in situations. The problem with these mercs and evos etc is the speed they can pick up in a very short space. In the wet, they'd spin up and get into trouble before they know it. They be into the back of other cars/bikes cos their judgement isn't tuned. Not wanting to wrap kids in cotton wool, cos everyone has to learn sometime, I just don't want the lesson to be in the back/side of me or anyone I know.

Just want their brains to think quicker than the car is going. It's such an overwhelming experiance for the first year of driving

Hitcher
1st June 2005, 13:30
Bring back the CNG-powered Holden Sunbird automatic!

Motu
1st June 2005, 13:33
No,I say not.For the same reason I think the present motorcycle restrictions are a farce - 96% of the riders on this site (myself excluded because I ride on a completly different level to mortals,my connection to god gives me far seeing vision) are riding a bike far beyond their ability to control,the present system was set up 30 years ago in a different age.You want to apply restrictions to learner car drivers when most likely the bike you learnt on far exceded the power to weight of dad's Merc.Set your own house in order before you make a move next door....

bugjuice
1st June 2005, 13:46
No,I say not.For the same reason I think the present motorcycle restrictions are a farce - 96% of the riders on this site (myself excluded because I ride on a completly different level to mortals,my connection to god gives me far seeing vision) are riding a bike far beyond their ability to control,the present system was set up 30 years ago in a different age.You want to apply restrictions to learner car drivers when most likely the bike you learnt on far exceded the power to weight of dad's Merc.Set your own house in order before you make a move next door....
fair comment. But on bikes, best you could take out in one 'accident' could be a few people at worst, including yourself, or possibly, yourself alone. In which case, you tend to take things a bit easier, cos it's you at steak mmmm steak...

but with a car, how many people can you take out in one go, and walk away from it like nothing ever happened? Who gets killed and who walks away to do it again? Not saying a smaller less powered car will make this any better, but it might help it not to be an accident, or an over-cooked corner..

Ok, so some learner bikes are a touch over powered, like the RGV250, but there's still a restriction in place, is there not..??

TwoSeven
1st June 2005, 13:51
Personally I dont think anyone under 18 should be allowed to drive on a public road. Then by the time they have gotten thru the restrictions, they'll be 21. It used to be said the requirement for 15/16 year olds to drive was because of farm workers, but I dont think that really holds now - anyway, they could have a special licence 'farm vehicles only'.

Maybe scooters and small capacity bikes could be a lower age.

But then I also support actually training road users and periodic retesting- something that will never happen here. People dont have the skills to implement such a scheme.

Lou Girardin
1st June 2005, 15:19
Bring back the CNG-powered Holden Sunbird automatic!

That's the one! The MOT had CNG (car no go) powered Kingswoods, topped out at 120 -130 k's. Took us 4 km's to stop a Corolla and he only stopped because we put the flashers on in desperation, we couldn't close the gap on him.
CNG power for all newbies.

250learna
1st June 2005, 17:45
I think the fact that most people can not afford to buy a car for their kids to learn on, and not many 15 year olds have that kind of money. So they end up driving parents cars. Parents buy a car to suit tehir needs and desires (in most cases) not a car they know will be safe for their kid to drive around in once he or she get their licence.

It would creat a huge problem for many and as such i dont see it happeneing. I think there might be a better shot at raising the age to 18 like in most other countries.

Wouldnt hold my breath tho :wait:

Ixion
1st June 2005, 18:00
I think the fact that most people can not afford to buy a car for their kids to learn on, and not many 15 year olds have that kind of money. ..

Cars is cheaper than bikes. I can get a real good second hand car for $1500 bucks. See how good a learner 250 you get for that

Skyryder
1st June 2005, 18:18
Just take his number and pot the fucker. That's about all you can do legaly. Maybe dada might do something useful. Either that or go and live in Blackball.


Skyryder

SlashWylde
1st June 2005, 18:54
Totally agree.

See my thread on this issue here:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=11857

Suney had some interesting correspondance from the LTSA on this issue.

Zed
1st June 2005, 19:06
Was nearly taken out this morning by a school kid in daddies merc. :mad:

I reckon all the big bikes should spend the week riding around with 'L' plates on, then when we get stopped, we say why..

Views?Sorry to hear about your close-call Kit, but mate it happens to the best of us! I'm sure you're thankful you didn't bin it, and yes it would have been this twerps fault if you did. :nono: You have a right to be angry.

In answer to your suggestion to ride all week with an L-plate attached above my 180 rear tyre, unfortunately I won't be joining you in that exercise because it simply won't work...plus I've never ridden with an L-plate and I never will!! The one thing that will work is if "daddy" never gives the keys to his spawn in the first place!

Glad you're okay BJ. :shifty:

250learna
1st June 2005, 19:18
Cars is cheaper than bikes. I can get a real good second hand car for $1500 bucks. See how good a learner 250 you get for that

ok but for that price you are getting an old car that wil need high maintainance, and the safety issue (for the driver) which most parents think about (i should hope). Would you let your sun drive your nissan maxima with airbags and works or a rusty old car that he picked up for $1500 that will most likely be the end of him if he has a crash...keeping in mind he is inexperianced driver!

Zed
1st June 2005, 19:35
ok but for that price you are getting an old car that wil need high maintainance, and the safety issue (for the driver) which most parents think about (i should hope). Would you let your sun drive your nissan maxima with airbags and works or a rusty old car that he picked up for $1500 that will most likely be the end of him if he has a crash...keeping in mind he is inexperianced driver!When Ixion said "a real good second hand car" I'm sure he meant that they are in fairly rust free and structurally sound condition, generally good condition all round I think.

Such cars are available cheap as nowadays. :yes:

Roadrash
1st June 2005, 19:44
i reckon that before you get a car licence you should have have a bike licence for a year or two, that way any shit drivers never make it into a car
:Punk: :Punk:

inlinefour
1st June 2005, 20:22
Do you think it will do any good?

Jeremy
1st June 2005, 21:19
Compulsary full car insurance, that solves all the problems, especially if there's some sort of equality between the sexes for once.

Why?

I can't learn to drive in either of my parents cars, can't learn in Dad's van because it's got business insurance = only drivers only 25 with full. Can't learn in the family car , because it's a nearly 3L diesel nissan laurel, and I was 17 at the time. I have no idea why my sister can get covered at 15, but I couldn't at 17. Funny thing is that my GN250 has far more grunt than either of their cars, yet I can easily get full insurance for it. Which is the reason why I'm stuck with a 1L on my license.

Ixion
1st June 2005, 21:53
I think when Ixion said "a real good second hand car" I'm sure he meant that they are in fairly rust free and structurally sound condition, generally good condition all round I think.

Such cars are available cheap as nowadays. :yes:

Yep. This one (http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=28209923&key=15283929) for instance.

Better cage than I drive. sure, no boi racer cred. That's the whole point. No different to bikes. If a learner on a bike has to able to afford to stump up for a 250, I don't see a problem in saying that the learner in a car should do similar.

nsrpaul
1st June 2005, 22:07
need a power , cc restriction for cars , no question , when my little brother was 17 , couple of yrs ago now , 3 kids in his yr at school had a wrx
I'd like to see a gn250 keep up with one of those!!!!!!!!!!!!!

250learna
1st June 2005, 22:11
Yep. This one (http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=28209923&key=15283929) for instance.

Better cage than I drive. sure, no boi racer cred. That's the whole point. No different to bikes. If a learner on a bike has to able to afford to stump up for a 250, I don't see a problem in saying that the learner in a car should do similar.

i see what you mean, but on a car like that it is only cheap because it has done som many K's, for instance at 200k the cambelt will surely need to be done again +tensioner i'd say as most people dont do this at the 100k change thats $450 right there,
i guess what im getting at is that these cheap not so old cars will cost alot in maintainance as they are usualy priced that way for a reason.
and even so, thats an extra $1500 that some family could save by letting their kid learn on their family car.

johnny
1st June 2005, 22:23
like the idea ... cant wait to see the look on police's face !!!
again.... parents let their kid drive high power car ......hlping them to kill ..... sigh...... they will never learn untill one day they are kill buy another kid's stupid driving (or their own kid)....


this country is run by some stupid people very badly....... spend the money (the tax we paid)on rediculer things... and the law protect criminal......etc.... I mean i like New Zealand more than anywhere else ... but the law has disappointed me .....

Ixion
1st June 2005, 22:26
..
and even so, thats an extra $1500 that some family could save by letting their kid learn on their family car.

Yep, and no-one's got a problem with that. Providing the family car is suitable. In fact, the "learning" is not really an issue. Remember a learner has to have a licensed driver along. Just make a change that any car is OK for learning provided the licensed driver is over 30 (which Mum or Dad will be). Want to do your "learning " hooning around with your 17 year old mate. Fine too, but the car's got to be restricted.

And the real rpoblem is not at the learning stage , it's once they get a restricted and can drive alone (and take hoon mates as passengers). And at that stage they'll very rarely be hooning in Mum or dad's car, they go buy one anyway. So I don't see an issue in saying the car they buy has to be a suitable one.

Learner - any car with an accompanying driver over 30.
Any licensed driver (2 year licence) if the cars restricted

Restricted any car with an accompanying driver over 30.
on your own - restricted car

Dead simple.

Sensei
1st June 2005, 22:30
What about after you get your learners over with & have your full Bike licence you can buy a 1000cc bike this is worse I think . :oi-grr:

SPORK
1st June 2005, 22:39
Yay! 15-Year old viewpoint time!

As a FYOLPD (FifteenYearOldLPlateDriver) I totally agree you shouldn't be able to drive 32094720 Litre SexxMobiles on your Learners or your Restricted. Common Sense really.

I regulary (I can't spell) shudder when I see this one guy in my year who's on his restricted (I'm really young for my year, just turned 15) drive to school every morning in his Fagged-Up Mazda 323. It has a big bore exhaust (Remember the golden rule: The bigger the exhaust, the bigger the asshole), an added repco tach (he already has one, this is just for wank factor, having a big clock looking thing in the middle of your windscreen is cool, remember) and a shift light (because he needs all the performance he can get).

In my opinion he is the biggest toss-pot ever, just because of his car. I say he should be made to drive a Honda City-E.

Wait, this turned into a ramble. As you were... :whistle:

SPman
1st June 2005, 22:51
Bring back the CNG-powered Holden Sunbird automatic!
Why you nostalgic romantic, you!

Ixion
1st June 2005, 22:53
What about after you get your learners over with & have your full Bike licence you can buy a 1000cc bike this is worse I think . :oi-grr:

??? Do you mean that the jump from 250 allowed on restricted to 1000 (1500, come to that) is too great ? or what?

I rather think that if you are going to have capacity restrictions (I'm not a fan myself), then there should be a jump from learner to restricted. Only problem is, a jump to 400 isn't much, and a jump to 600 is too much.

Pixie
1st June 2005, 23:07
Compulsary full car insurance, that solves all the problems, especially if there's some sort of equality between the sexes for once.

Why?

I can't learn to drive in either of my parents cars, can't learn in Dad's van because it's got business insurance = only drivers only 25 with full. Can't learn in the family car , because it's a nearly 3L diesel nissan laurel, and I was 17 at the time. I have no idea why my sister can get covered at 15, but I couldn't at 17. Funny thing is that my GN250 has far more grunt than either of their cars, yet I can easily get full insurance for it. Which is the reason why I'm stuck with a 1L on my license.
I was thinking the same thing.
The insurance industry can be relied on the quickly respond to any new risks...Granny racers,for instance.

Bob
1st June 2005, 23:23
Coming from the land of much more restrictive legislation than you guys have,
I sympathise with what you are saying, but there is one major problem. Any government that p*sses off the car lobby is going to see their re-election chances head straight into the bin.

Majority drive cars - and more importantly, the ones that have the attention of the politicos... like, other politicos. So there will always be "kid gloves" applied to any form of restriction on cars. Bikes, on the other hand, are a minority thing and are also an easy option for putting in restrictive laws. "Look" says the politico "We are doing out bit to make roads safer, by making bikers do all these things so they will not harm car drivers"... turns to give winning smile to photographers "So vote for US!"

But try to do the same with cars? Imagine it "We are going to save everyone by stopping learners from driving big cars", say the government. And the opposition parties leap in with "Civil liberties taken away - will this Nanny State attidude NEVER end?" And Mr Very Important, who is about to buy little Scummy Scumson III his first Porsche for his 16th birthday goes "I say, politico who is in my pocket, I am taking away my funding for your party"

Bikes? As I said, we're a minority and an easy target, so we'll keep getting the leglislation, while the car fraternity get zero, nada, zip to stop them from doing whatever they want.... relatively speaking of course.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've covered our bike licencing before, but here is a quick synopsis:
Get provisional licence
Take CBT (on a 125cc bike) - certificate that says you can manouvre, change gear and do an emergency stop
2 years to pass both a theory and a practical test. If you take test on 125cc machine, you have 2 years at 33bhp - realistically a 250cc bike. You can, if over 21, take Direct Access, which bypasses the 2 year limitation.
After 2 year limitation onto any capacity bike.

UK car licencing? Get provisional licence, pass theory and practical test, drive anything you want.

250learna
2nd June 2005, 00:30
Yep, and no-one's got a problem with that. Providing the family car is suitable. In fact, the "learning" is not really an issue. Remember a learner has to have a licensed driver along. Just make a change that any car is OK for learning provided the licensed driver is over 30 (which Mum or Dad will be). Want to do your "learning " hooning around with your 17 year old mate. Fine too, but the car's got to be restricted.

And the real rpoblem is not at the learning stage , it's once they get a restricted and can drive alone (and take hoon mates as passengers). And at that stage they'll very rarely be hooning in Mum or dad's car, they go buy one anyway. So I don't see an issue in saying the car they buy has to be a suitable one.

Learner - any car with an accompanying driver over 30.
Any licensed driver (2 year licence) if the cars restricted

Restricted any car with an accompanying driver over 30.
on your own - restricted car

Dead simple.


sorry ixion i see what you mean now, i think thats fair enough :niceone:
when unsupervised a restricted car wouldnt be a bad idea for a restricted licence holder

inlinefour
2nd June 2005, 01:26
I've ONLY viewed ONE good idea on this WHOLE thread. Conpulsory insurance, full insurance that is. Would stop a few thats for sure, what with the extreme premiums that they charge. Yea you'll still get the nancy boys/girls, with the "I've got rich parents who don't care what I do as long as I'm outta their face" syndrome. All I see here is a bunch of jealous people who did not get the toys that they really wanted and are pissed about a few who did. Boy racers ain't anything new, nor are the jealousy created by the "have nots" in the world. Get over it, get an education, a job, save the bling and become a "I have one". Otherwise get over yourselves... :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares:

Bob
7th June 2005, 00:40
Can any of you guys please explain your insurance system to me?

I only ask as from time to time I see comments about "compulsory insurance" or "I really should get insured" etc.

Do you not have to have insurance?

Over here, you MUST be insured, end of story. There are three levels:

Third Party Only (fairly obvious)
Third Party Fire & Theft (same as above, but if your bike catches fire or is stolen, then you'll get a payout)
Fully Comprehensive (pays for everything, inclusive of any damage if you have an 'off')

Obviously, TPO is cheapest, followed by TPF&T and then FC.

Do you guys not have a similar system?

Ixion
7th June 2005, 01:23
Can any of you guys please explain your insurance system to me?

I only ask as from time to time I see comments about "compulsory insurance" or "I really should get insured" etc.

Do you not have to have insurance?

Over here, you MUST be insured, end of story. There are three levels:

Third Party Only (fairly obvious)
Third Party Fire & Theft (same as above, but if your bike catches fire or is stolen, then you'll get a payout)
Fully Comprehensive (pays for everything, inclusive of any damage if you have an 'off')

Obviously, TPO is cheapest, followed by TPF&T and then FC.

Do you guys not have a similar system?


Big difference is we have what is, in effect, a compulsory, Government run third party PERSONAL INJURY scheme (ACC) . Which is compulsory, and the "premium" is collected with your registration (= Road Tax)

This gives "insurance" (it's a bit more complicated than that but more or less) to everybody against personal injury.

So there is no need for "private" insurance for third party personal injury claims

Beyond the compulsory ACC scheme you can insure with private companies (exactly as UK) for third party PROPERTY claims(ie damage to someone else's car), fire, theft, or comprehensive (exactly as UK)

Since the "biggy" in insurance world is personal injury claims, and these are covered by your registration (Road Tax), not everybody has any further insurance.

The present debate is whether the Governemnt should extend the compulsory element to include third party property damage.

The reasons for this thinking are not entirely logical or entirely creditable. (IMHO)

Bob
7th June 2005, 02:55
Thanks for that - suddenly a lot of posts make perfect sense!

eliot-ness
7th June 2005, 10:32
Yes to increasing licencing age, 17 minimum.
Yes to power restriction.
Definite NO to protest. Boy racers are digging themselves a bloody big hole. The cage fraternity are doing all the protesting needed. One group complaining about another invariably has a backlash and bad publicity is something we don't need. Be thankful they are taking the heat off us in election year.
--------------------
He who laughs last thinks slowest

Lou Girardin
8th June 2005, 11:16
Compulsory thrid party insurance will only be effective in keeping high risk tossers off the road if it's enforced. What's the chance of that happening?

Pixie
8th June 2005, 11:34
Saw a news item this morning.A Perth Co. has developed a data logger/transmitter with a view to have them fitted to hoon's cars by court order.Like a Lo-Jack it tells the cops what speed the Hoon is doing and where he is and can be downloaded at a later date whereupon the Hoon gets a fine for all his offences over the period of his sentence. :nono:

scumdog
8th June 2005, 11:42
Compulsory thrid party insurance will only be effective in keeping high risk tossers off the road if it's enforced. What's the chance of that happening?

Probably as much as anything -but what penalty?? impoundment?

Down here they let you take away their $400 rocket and shrug their shoulders and shoot off and buy another one, leaving the old one for the towie to dispose of after the 28 days are up, cheaper way to do it than pay tow/impoundment fees.

Those with flasher registered cars WOULD have 3rd party insurance but it still wouldn't stop their hopeless 'driving'.

scumdog
8th June 2005, 11:52
Can any of you guys please explain your insurance system to me?

I only ask as from time to time I see comments about "compulsory insurance" or "I really should get insured" etc.

Do you not have to have insurance?

Over here, you MUST be insured, end of story. There are three levels:

Third Party Only (fairly obvious)
Third Party Fire & Theft (same as above, but if your bike catches fire or is stolen, then you'll get a payout)
Fully Comprehensive (pays for everything, inclusive of any damage if you have an 'off')

Obviously, TPO is cheapest, followed by TPF&T and then FC.

Do you guys not have a similar system?

Dunno if anybody has mentioned it Bob but years ago it use to be that when you paid for your registration you got automatic 3rd Party insurance, I think that went the way of the dodo when our ACC came in, now it is up to the individual and we get heaps of crashes where the innocent party is out of pocket due to Johnny Retard having no insurance at all.

avgas
8th June 2005, 12:09
I think it should be compulsory for all people to attend a 'Thrash day' in there car while sitting their license. When i first was learning to drive, i had a big accident (failed to take a 90 degree corner at 100kph in a Hilux). I never touched a car again untill 2 years later - where me an my father built a car.......which i then raced, off road. While building the car i had various paddock bashers to get my skill up. The skills i learnt doing that at 100,000 better then some shitty AA instructor could have taught me. Now whenever i get in ANY vehicle it takes me about 5 mins to have everything sorted. People dont know the limitations of their vehicles. and all AA instructors teach you (sorry if there are some on here - but im still yet to find a good one), is BRAKE in any situation..........THIS IS HORRIBLY WRONG. What happens in a slide??? ABS fails????
Oh and those of you who believe that im all shit......i have been driving now for about 5 years.....and apart from that very first crash (7 years ago), i have had no other ones in a car. And i dont drive nicely either.
As for high HP cars in the hands of the youth......im still havent been endaged or hit by one on the bike/car, but (bus drivers, old people, office workers, van owners, couriers, old people, and people about 40ish with their familys in the car) have all scared the shit out of me, or endagered me on the road.
I know no-one is saying that all youth in fast cars are bad drivers, but im just saying "All people who are not educated drivers, are bad drivers".
On a final note....."Use brakes, before horns morons"

madboy
8th June 2005, 13:15
Bugjuice, I woulda kept an AMG mirror souvenir.

Fellas, good points made here by all, but fact is - rules only work if people choose to obey them. Compulsory this, compulsory that doesn't mean jack if people flaunt them. Once society figures out a way to change peoples attitudes, then we'll have a safer driving/riding environment.

Laws didn't stop me cruising around at midnight with a car load of mates on my restricted car license. Laws didn't stop me carrying a pillion on my 400 at well over 100k on my learners.

The AA educated me to pass my restricted car license. Experience taught me that it wasn't a particularly smart thing to do some things in a car. Fortunately I could thrash cars, crash cars and race cars until I'd developed a reasonable sense of car control. Then over time I developed enough common sense to calm it down and realise that the best drivers know when to back off, not when to bring it on. That common sense kicked in around mid to late 20s. After I'd driven several hundred thousand kays (I did a LOT of driving). I'm only 29 now.

Education taught me that it wasn't a particularly good idea to do a few things on the bike. Education also taught me what to do in a few situations where it was needed too. And as my experience grows, so does my skill level and the development of common sense on a bike.

But in saying all that - I still choose to flout certain laws because my personal values are agreeable to that. My bike is almost NEVER registered (a WOF is safety, rego is tax), I just bought a car that owes me $412 to take my daughter to school in. It'll never break 60km/h, but it will never be registered either. I still speed, both in my car and to a much greater extent on the bike. There are laws against these! But does this all make me a "bad" driver/rider?

Attitude, that's where it's at. And all kiwis are brilliant drivers, it's our God given right to drive and no bastard spouting common sense is gonna save us from ourselves!!

Lou Girardin
8th June 2005, 16:24
Probably as much as anything -but what penalty?? impoundment?

Down here they let you take away their $400 rocket and shrug their shoulders and shoot off and buy another one, leaving the old one for the towie to dispose of after the 28 days are up, cheaper way to do it than pay tow/impoundment fees.

Those with flasher registered cars WOULD have 3rd party insurance but it still wouldn't stop their hopeless 'driving'.

That's an easy one. Make it illegal for a dealer to sell to someone without insurance. If they buy through someone else then drive it, it's aiding and abetting.

Lou Girardin
8th June 2005, 16:27
I think it should be compulsory for all people to attend a 'Thrash day' in there car while sitting their license. When i first was learning to drive, i had a big accident (failed to take a 90 degree corner at 100kph in a Hilux). I never touched a car again untill 2 years later - where me an my father built a car.......which i then raced, off road. While building the car i had various paddock bashers to get my skill up. The skills i learnt doing that at 100,000 better then some shitty AA instructor could have taught me. Now whenever i get in ANY vehicle it takes me about 5 mins to have everything sorted. People dont know the limitations of their vehicles. and all AA instructors teach you (sorry if there are some on here - but im still yet to find a good one), is BRAKE in any situation..........THIS IS HORRIBLY WRONG. What happens in a slide??? ABS fails????
Oh and those of you who believe that im all shit......i have been driving now for about 5 years.....and apart from that very first crash (7 years ago), i have had no other ones in a car. And i dont drive nicely either.
As for high HP cars in the hands of the youth......im still havent been endaged or hit by one on the bike/car, but (bus drivers, old people, office workers, van owners, couriers, old people, and people about 40ish with their familys in the car) have all scared the shit out of me, or endagered me on the road.
I know no-one is saying that all youth in fast cars are bad drivers, but im just saying "All people who are not educated drivers, are bad drivers".
On a final note....."Use brakes, before horns morons"


Jeez, it took me 8 years before I became a driving God. You do well, Grasshopper.

Ixion
8th June 2005, 16:28
That's an easy one. Make it illegal for a dealer to sell to someone without insurance. If they buy through someone else then drive it, it's aiding and abetting.

Lease vehicles.
Company cars
Cars driven by multiple drivers.
Lots of people I now of own cars but don't drive them themselves.
Off road vehicles
Vintage vehicles

One thing you can be sure of - if you invite the Government to make laws about it, motorcyclists will come out on the bad side, and we'll all regret it.

Motu
8th June 2005, 18:07
When I lived on Waiheke Island in the late 80s,one individual worked to start a dirt track on the Island,through his efforts some land was secured and the club started - the aim was to get the young guys away from hooning around the streets...and it worked,very well.Every young guy found an old Corolla,gutted it and fitted a roll cage made out of 4x4 posts....and went racing.They learnt a hell of a lot about cars,about driving,about being involved in a club and about their place in the community - the track is still going.Over the years more classes had to be formed as they developed driving and car building skills,they joined the club committy and generaly powered the Dirt Track Club forward.After the dirt Track had been running a couple or so years,I started to get young guys on bikes using the dirt track along with another rider who I worked with doing other things like enduros and skills training on bikes.We weren't as successful as the car guys and they ultimatly kicked us of ''their'' track for having too much fun.

Anyway,every young guy who raced on the track improved their driving imeasurably,you could really see the change come over them....it was low bucks,real low bucks,it was not many rules...and most important - IT WAS FUN!!!!

Ixion
8th June 2005, 18:14
..
Anyway,every young guy who raced on the track improved their driving imeasurably,you could really see the change come over them....it was low bucks,real low bucks,it was not many rules...and most important - IT WAS FUN!!!!

FUN !!?? FUN !!??

You sociopathatic bolshevist nilhilist you.

What do mean by encouraging and assisting youff to have FUN. Don't you know that's illegal. HIGHLY illegal. And if somethings that's fun hasn't been made illegal yet, the Gubbernmint will make it illegal as soon as they find out

You can't have youff going around having FUN. Where would it all end ?

Youff have to be made miserabe, and cowed and guilty. They're guilty anyway, of something (of being young will do if nothing else is available). So they should be made to feel guilty.

If it is still running, just drop a line to a Minister, they'll have it closed down in no time

FUN indeed . Don't know what the worlds coming to.

Didn't go through six world wars, a depression and have to live by consuming my own toenails to end up seeing youff having FUN. Bah, humbug.

Two Smoker
8th June 2005, 18:37
Bike Licences:

upto 250cc on Learners, take away the 70kmh limit (that limit is a crock of shit)
upto 400cc on restricted.
upto whateveryouwant cc on Full (The jump from a 400 to a 1000 would be far easier, if that rider chose to)

Car Licences:

Learners start at 16 (doesnt matter what car they drive as they will be supervised)

Restricted, restrict the power of the vehicle to 100kW (at the crank)

Full, drive what you want...

ALSO, Defensive Driving courses are required before sitting your full...

Mr Skid
8th June 2005, 18:52
restrict the power of the vehicle to 100km (at the crank) :unsure: :blink:

Two Smoker
8th June 2005, 19:04
:unsure: :blink:

Fixed :weird: :ride: :grouphug: :motu: :oi-grr: <= 5 more characters to make up the 10...

Mr Skid
8th June 2005, 19:09
Fixed :weird: :ride: :grouphug: :motu: :oi-grr: <= 5 more characters to make up the 10...
:D :D :D

SPORK
8th June 2005, 20:36
Bike Licences:

upto 250cc on Learners, take away the 70kmh limit (that limit is a crock of shit)
upto 400cc on restricted.
upto whateveryouwant cc on Full (The jump from a 400 to a 1000 would be far easier, if that rider chose to)

Yargh, that's exactly what I think, in my infinite bikewisdom.




Car Licences:

Learners start at 16 (doesnt matter what car they drive as they will be supervised)

Restricted, restrict the power of the vehicle to 100kW (at the crank)

Full, drive what you want...

Mwaugahaha! Too late to stop me!



ALSO, Defensive Driving courses are required before sitting your full...

Anyone that wouldn't take one is a fool... they take time off your restricted, don't they? :yes:

Jeremy
8th June 2005, 20:56
Aren't defensive driving courses a little useless for those on bikes? We have to cover more in the motorcycle road code.

Defensive driving: "Imagine that everyone else is stupid"
Motorcycle road code: "Everyone else is stupid and blind"

Defensive driving: "Watch their wheels"
Motorcycle road code: "Watch their wheels, head, and just expect them to do all sorts of random stuff"


Personally here's the thing I'd like to most see. If you can pass the full test (which should be much harder and more comprehensive that what it currently is) then you get a full license. None of this wait 18 months stuff.

madboy
8th June 2005, 20:57
ALSO, Defensive Driving courses are required before sitting your full...I'm assuming they've changed in the (12) years since I did mine - cos the defensive driving course I did didn't teach me jack. Now the CBTA I did a year ago - that taught me a few things.

Education is only valuable to those who want to learn. At 17 I already knew everything I needed to know, so why burden my already brilliant mind with trivial details I didn't think I needed to know? Strangely by 28 I didn't know shit and needed to learn lots more.

SlashWylde
8th June 2005, 23:04
The problem wiht the depensive driving courses car drivers go on is that, well, there ain't no driving involved. You sit in a classroom at your local highschool for a few hours for a couple of weeks and listen to a lot of commonsense drivel then get a pass :whocares:

The CBTA and Bronz courses on the other hand actually teach you how to ride better and safer.

Until the Govt makes practical Defensive Driving courses mandatory with some sensible demonstration of ability to gain a pass, then we will continue to experience the generally low level of aptitude displayed by so many motorists.

scumdog
8th June 2005, 23:57
I'm assuming they've changed in the (12) years since I did mine - cos the defensive driving course I did didn't teach me jack. Now the CBTA I did a year ago - that taught me a few things.

Education is only valuable to those who want to learn. At 17 I already knew everything I needed to know, so why burden my already brilliant mind with trivial details I didn't think I needed to know? Strangely by 28 I didn't know shit and needed to learn lots more.

Wait 'til you hit 50, you'll be stunned by how little you know!! (or remember for that matter) :weird:

XP@
9th June 2005, 09:46
Many years ago i was working in car / house insurance in the UK.

An young guy comes in and askes for a few quotes for cars. He had just passed his test and wanted something like a 205, escort or something. He asked why the quotes were in excess of 2000 POUNDS per year (he was getting finance so needed full insurance). My answer... try the 1300cc version not the 2000cc!

Anyway, that was on the friday, the next morning I got a call from a cell phone with real crappy reception. I got as far as understanding it was him and he had a new car. He did not understand that I could not put him on cover without the reg number.

So with his new peugot 205 1.9gti he took some of his mates drive in to a ditch about 3 hours after buying the car. He did survive, just but would never drive again.

The insurance company did not pay up. Was not really surprised about that.

Two Smoker
9th June 2005, 19:44
Actually you guys are wrong, the Defensive Driving course has been changed greatly!!! It is far better than when i did mine 4 or so years ago... There is NOW a practical session, and if you dont pass the practical session you fail the course... You can also do the practical test on a motorbike, so they do cater for motorbikes...

And Jeremy for going from Restricted straight to Full, its called the CBTA course.. I dont qualify for it because i have over 80 demerit points...

pommie girl
13th June 2005, 10:29
Actually you guys are wrong, the Defensive Driving course has been changed greatly!!! It is far better than when i did mine 4 or so years ago... There is NOW a practical session, and if you dont pass the practical session you fail the course... You can also do the practical test on a motorbike, so they do cater for motorbikes...

Interesting ... I did the defensive driving course last month and there wasn't a practical element to it at all. I found it an interesting course because I actually wanted to attend, however the rest of the class, approximately 20 teenagers, couldn't have cared less and seemed even less interested in learning how to drive safely.

The driving age over here is waaaaay too young and they definitely should be restricted to the size engine of the car. Plus, I seriously believe that having insurance should be mandatory!!! It might stop some of the younger kids getting too powerful a car and then not bothering with insurance because they can't afford it ... and wham, weeks later you've got a mess on your hands ...

Indiana_Jones
13th June 2005, 10:46
I hate those dick teen cage drivers, they can drive whatever they want, but they can't even use the clutch without blocks under their feet.

I think some form of restriction is in order. :nono:

-Indy

Squiggles
21st June 2005, 21:11
i got thru 3 pages of this and got tired

im only 17 and all, so no experience in comparison to the rest of u really....but...

as far as i see it, motorbike's get the 250cc limit until you get your full, by which time you have probably gained quite a bit of experience and could handle the power of a 400.....car's have no limit, i goto a reasonably rich school and quite a few people drive around in there parents subaru legacy's or holden commodore's.......and well, i've been taken out twice on a push bike by them and have had 1 close miss on my mtrbike...... i remember it was on the news or something a while back, someone asked the minister if it was possible to legislate against the power of cars, to stop the number of crashes happening when younger people drive powerful cars...he said no, no such legislation is possible, but havent they already done this with motorbikes and the 250cc thing? :whistle:

Squiggles
21st June 2005, 21:28
upto 250cc on Learners, take away the 70kmh limit (that limit is a crock of shit)
upto 400cc on restricted.
upto whateveryouwant cc on Full (The jump from a 400 to a 1000 would be far easier, if that rider chose to)

hell yeh, i'd be with tht

XP@
22nd June 2005, 09:38
Random thought, but a knock on effect of upping the restricted cc's to 400 could be a change in price of the 250 cc bikes.

At the moment 250's command a really high price for what they are. I guess the price of a 400 would go up but would the cost of a 250 go down?

Ixion
22nd June 2005, 10:37
Random thought, but a knock on effect of upping the restricted cc's to 400 could be a change in price of the 250 cc bikes.

At the moment 250's command a really high price for what they are. I guess the price of a 400 would go up but would the cost of a 250 go down?

No. Supply and demand. Since as many people (ie all) would still need to buy a 250. 50 - 250s are dear because there is a high demand (all learners need one) and not many new ones sold because (a) learners are usually young and have little money (b) they don't want to commit a lot of money to what is seen as a short term measure.

To get the price of second hand ones down either more new ones must be sold (increasing supply), or the law must be changes so that not all learners are restricted to <250

XP@
22nd June 2005, 10:53
No. Supply and demand. Since as many people (ie all) would still need to buy a 250. 50 - 250s are dear because there is a high demand (all learners need one) and not many new ones sold because (a) learners are usually young and have little money (b) they don't want to commit a lot of money to what is seen as a short term measure.

To get the price of second hand ones down either more new ones must be sold (increasing supply), or the law must be changes so that not all learners are restricted to <250
But if restricted riders can ride 400's then the demand for 400's will go up and 250's will go down, thus evening out the price gap?

Coyote
22nd June 2005, 11:21
I would've thought 250 during learners then 400 on resricted wouldn't work so well. Ideally you would have a single capacity maximum for both like we have now. Most people would either get a 250 and keep it untill their full anyway cause they haven't got the money for a 400 or they would buy a 400 and flog it off as a 250 whilst on their learners. Either keep it at 250 or change the law to allow bikes up to 400.

Ixion
22nd June 2005, 12:14
But if restricted riders can ride 400's then the demand for 400's will go up and 250's will go down, thus evening out the price gap?

No, because each of the 400 buyers will already have bought a 250.

Say, there are 100 new learners entering the scene in a year. And suppose they are all poor and can't buy a new bike.

So there will be 100 people looking for 250s each year. They'll keep the 250 untill full licence then sell it and get a whatever

Now assume that you can have a 400 on restricted.

You STILL have 100 learners looking for 250s . So the demand has not changed. And the supply has not changed either, just a timing difference, the learners will flick off the 250 when they move to restricted instead of full.

So the price of 400s will go up , but the 250s will stay the same.

The only thing that will change the pricing on 250s is

(a) more people buying new ones , so the supply of second hand ones increases. Or fewer learners crash and write off their bikes, thus increasing the supply. Or someone starts importing 250s . So greater supply
(b) More people graduating to full licence relative to new learners entering the scene (extreme example, if no learners started at all the demand for 250s would almost dry up. Almost because there would be a few full licence holders buy a 250 as a second bike; and some 250 riders would crash and need replacement bikes.). So less demand.

madboy
22nd June 2005, 13:41
400 to a 1000 is still a bloody big jump. Just cos it's legislatively "safe" doesn't mean to say it'll do a hell of a lot. The difference between a 250 and a 400 would be fairly modest, but the difference between a 400 and a 1000 is night and day.

I jumped 400 to 636 and that was a 100% increase in horsepower, and I'd have to jump another 50% of the 636 to get on a 1000. So 400 to 1000 could be a 200% increase in power. For a 16/17yo? Wow - that's asking for it. Best thing to do is keep the younger generation poor through fines and study costs until they have enough maturity to handle a 1000 (pt) :whistle:

Squiggles
22nd June 2005, 14:10
bah, keep me poor then :(

raster
9th July 2005, 00:27
No, because each of the 400 buyers will already have bought a 250.


So the price of 400s will go up , but the 250s will stay the same.

The only thing that will change the pricing on 250s is

(a) more people buying new ones , so the supply of second hand ones increases. Or fewer learners crash and write off their bikes, thus increasing the supply. Or someone starts importing 250s . So greater supply
(b) More people graduating to full licence relative to new learners entering the scene (extreme example, if no learners started at all the demand for 250s would almost dry up. Almost because there would be a few full licence holders buy a 250 as a second bike; and some 250 riders would crash and need replacement bikes.). So less demand.


Good point Ixion: but you also get people like me who have been riding on farm so know how to handle bike, pass scratchie without problem ( even though they gave me the car scratchie to do) hire a 250 to get restricted time on bike 100 Ks at most, am bout to get my full with probly 2 hours experience, and you can get 250s now with more go than my 400cc.

Apparently in Ausi they take power to weight ratio into account.

Especially when you see L plates on a lowered 2Turbo Legacy.

Why pick on the bikes when it's usually the cars that do most of the damage.

Ixion
9th July 2005, 00:42
Good point Ixion: but you also get people like me who have been riding on farm so know how to handle bike, pass scratchie without problem ( even though they gave me the car scratchie to do) hire a 250 to get restricted time on bike 100 Ks at most, am bout to get my full with probly 2 hours experience, and you can get 250s now with more go than my 400cc.

Apparently in Ausi they take power to weight ratio into account.

Especially when you see L plates on a lowered 2Turbo Legacy.

Why pick on the bikes when it's usually the cars that do most of the damage.

Yeah, personally I don't agree with the restriction (when I leaqrnt to ride there wasn't one). For , inter alia, the reasons you specifiy. I was just elucidating the economic logic that makes 250's overpriced so long as there is a restriction at any level

raster
9th July 2005, 08:21
I am not going to waste my money on one just for a few months

Pathos
10th July 2005, 01:22
Most of the 250's around for sale nowadays are from the early 90's. I would think the motorcycle companies will be looking at making some new 250cc models soon and prices will drop once they are released.

Brian d marge
10th July 2005, 02:31
Flying down Finsbury park road in the 3rd lane 2 up at 80mph on a bsa bantam ,,,is erm more exciting than any of your GSXZXRW RS turbos ,,,at 290 km ( been there ,,boring ) ...,,

The bantam was a big bore 185cc with epoxyed transfers , and an atmosph comp of ( I think 7 to 1 ) ... it flewwww

The point of the above bolloxs is the stopping distance up the arse of a ford fiesta ,,is the same ...0.001 mm and the results are the same ...except the forks on a bantam are cheaper to replace ...
up to 25years old ..... arses and elbows are indistinquishable ...( ha ! got me tongue round that one !!
A gb500 is a damn site slower than a JHA nsr 250 ...either way its the eyes and brain thats the key to making it to 26 years ( those under 40 ,,, you bunch of lucky baskets ,,, I tell you I would do everything again ,,but with more GUSTO ,,, a LOT more Gusto !!)

NOPE its all about being reserved with the use of power ...( yes a bsa bantam had power in these days!!)

Driver training
I am sure they could milk us for the same amount of cash ..with driver training as they do with speed tickets

Stephen

Hooked on POWER ,,,now owning a Royal Enfield ...( 120 km/h and a set of forks ,,at a mind boggling 70 dollars ,,, a cam set at not much more than 100 !!:devil2:

Squiggles
12th July 2005, 11:19
aye? wrong topic?

i dont like how bikers are "picked on" in a way by the licensing system, where car learners can have massively overpowered cars but :crybaby: i cant have an r1 :crybaby: (not that i'd get one, too expensive and too scary 4 me atm)
would be good to see some legislation against the power of some cars these days, they do do quite alot more damage than bikes..... :yes:

mstriumph
12th July 2005, 11:43
In a perfect world, wouldbe cage drivers should be made to spend 2 years [say] on a bike first ---- hopefully would either give 'em enough traffic savvy to make them aware drivers for the rest of their pitiful existance or would kill 'em beforehand........... either way's ok with me?

TriumphMan
12th July 2005, 17:33
I think that very young car drivers should be restricted to 1.1 litre or less until they are 18, then 1.3 litres. The maximum for a restricted license unaccompanied driver should be 1.3. I don't think that it would stop too many boy/girl racers though cos I don't think that many have licences in the first place.

TriumphMan
12th July 2005, 17:37
I believe that you can ride any size bike that you want as a learner in the UK. Maybe they'll draw a line one litre short of a Rocket 111. People who learn on bigger bikes need to have a trainer accomany them on another bike though.

In NSW you can learn on a 30ps bike regardless of capacity. There are restrictor kits available for lots of bikes. Hyosung have a 650 called the comet 650L which has the restrictor built in and is road legal. May be a good option for NZ, but then again, restrictors do tend to be easy to remove from some bikes.

raster
12th July 2005, 17:48
Skill should be taken into acct toooooooooooooooooo.
Put through some extensive training instead of just sent into the wild and learning or dying. Fines should be used for training, put to work to improve peoples skills and awareness.

raster
12th July 2005, 17:50
In a perfect world, wouldbe cage drivers should be made to spend 2 years [say] on a bike first ---- hopefully would either give 'em enough traffic savvy to make them aware drivers for the rest of their pitiful existance or would kill 'em beforehand........... either way's ok with me?

That would open a few peoples eyes.

oldrider
29th August 2005, 11:38
Don't make new rules get rid of the old ones.
Rules and regulations should be kept to an absolute minimum.
If a rule or regulation can't be policed then it's a stupid rule.
Individual responsibility should be taught and nurtured into our young people so that they can enjoy their lives and learn from their own mistakes.
There will be casualties but the better they are taught the fewer casualties there will be. Thems are the risks.
Society has to stop treating our young people like nutters just because the older generation had to be lead round by their Socialist snouts.
Old people have to learn that if they expect young people to act like idiots then the young will always exceed their expectations.
Note it's election time. Labour and the left do not advocate "Individual responsibility". They will always make a rule for everybody instead of treating the source of the problem.
Today's Kids are fantastic just squashed down by too many rules regulations and political bullshit. Oh I am starting to wind up but please think about it.
"Freedom brings personal responsibility. Collective rules stifle initiative"
Who will give you greater freedom. Think about that when you vote. Cheers John.

Squiggles
29th August 2005, 15:57
Today's Kids are fantastic just squashed down by too many rules regulations and political bullshit. Oh I am starting to wind up but please think about it.
"Freedom brings personal responsibility. Collective rules stifle initiative"
Who will give you greater freedom. Think about that when you vote. Cheers John.

have to agree with that