Moto3

[ajturbo]

Moto3 Class
The 125cc class will be replaced by the Moto3 class. The basic technical rules of this class are:
- Single cylinder 250cc 4-stroke engines with a maximum bore of 81 mm.
- Each engine should last for 3 races minimum and cost not more than 10,000 € (final cost will be announced)
- Each manufacturer if required should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders


now thats what i think is great!!!

er hope this is not a re-post

[CHOPPA]

Is your young fella still riding??

[Grumph]

Something similar could work here and come in below F3 - but adaped so as not to obsolete what is already in NZ..
Can i suggest - maximum 250cc capacity, four stroke only.

singles - open fuel excluding nitromethane.
Twins - petrol or E80/commercially available ethanol blend
Fours - pump petrol

I don't know how this compares to the lite classes being run oop North.
One of the problems with the original F3 was that the open singles needed the Methanol to live,the twins needed it to be competitive and the damm fours loved it.
Then it was banned and the fours took over.

Comments ?

[steveyb]

Comments ?

Yes, have a look at the new 125GP/GP Mono rules released by MNZ.

[ajturbo]

err... what has this got to do with the Moto3??

i was commenting on the fact that all factory teams must have 15 riders!!!:shit:

[yod]

Moto3 Class
The 125cc class will be replaced by the Moto3 class. The basic technical rules of this class are:
- Single cylinder 250cc 4-stroke engines with a maximum bore of 81 mm.
- Each engine should last for 3 races minimum and cost not more than 10,000 € (final cost will be announced)
- Each manufacturer if required should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders


now thats what i think is great!!!

er hope this is not a re-post

sounds like a plan, Moto2 is freakin awesome to watch

so it comes in next year?

[sinfull]

- Each manufacturer if required should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders




Thats a big sidechair to carry that may ppl !

[Pumba]

- Each manufacturer if required should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders

15 seems like a large number.

Has anyone got any idea how many manurfactures are planning in producing these engines, and how big the grids can be for anyone race?

[Dave-]

that sounds fantastic.

[Mental Trousers]

So if Honda, KTM and Aprillia decide to contest the series that's 45 riders with no room for anyone else on the grid. Doesn't sound right.

[crazzed]

looks like it will be as good as moto2

[Ivan]

I take back my words it is official now

MOTOGP » Official: Moto3 to replace 125cc

At a meeting of the Grand Prix Commission during this weekend's Czech Republic Grand Prix at Brno, it was confirmed that the 125cc class - the only two-stroke category remaining - will also be replaced by four-strokes from 2012.

Unlike Moto2, the four-stroke class that replace 250cc at the start of this year, the new Moto3 class will not have a single engine supplier.

The 125cc World Championship is the last category remaining from the inaugural 1949 World Championship season.

The statement read:

"Application 2012

"The 125cc class will be replaced by the Moto3 class.

"The basic technical rules of this class are:
- single cylinder 250cc 4-stroke engines with a maximum bore of 81 mm.
- each engine should last for 3 races minimum and cost not more than 10,000 € (final cost will be announced)
- each manufacturer if required should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders.

"This proposal has been agreed by the majority of MSMA."

The premier grand prix class changed from 500cc (two-strokes) to MotoGP (four-strokes) in 2002.

[Ivan]

err... what has this got to do with the Moto3??

i was commenting on the fact that all factory teams must have 15 riders!!!:shit:


It wont be Factory teams it will be bike Manufactors so like Honda for example will be required to have 15 riders, But there will be more thanone Honda team etc

[scracha]

Interesting on 2 counts.

1 is that they've put a limit on the bore size.

2. 10K euro price limit. That's pretty low. Can't see why a manufacturer would invest a fuckload of money on developing the engine when they have to be prepared to sell it to another team for such little money.

[Brian d marge]

I havent heard much , mind u ive been out of the loop a bit this year

I miss the two smokes , but I said the moto 2 would be good , :yes:

Each engine must cost more than 10 000 euro , is a mighty interesting rule ,,, compliments the chassis rule of moto 2
( I assume open chassis in moto 3 ?)

That engine rule will do 2 things . focus the engineering process and volume production ... all good

As Ive said in the past , NZ should stop trying to re invent the wheel , copy international rules , and do what Kiwis do best , innovate and lead ,

There are loads more Britains where that one came from ,

Never happen though , too many individuals,no focus

Stephen

[Wingnut]

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love the 2 strokers. Ring ting ting ting ting ting reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[Rcktfsh]

Moto3 Class
The 125cc class will be replaced by the Moto3 class. The basic technical rules of this class are:
- Single cylinder 250cc 4-stroke engines with a maximum bore of 81 mm.
- Each engine should last for 3 races minimum and cost not more than 10,000 € (final cost will be announced)
- Each manufacturer if required should be ready to supply a minimum of 15 riders


now thats what i think is great!!!

er hope this is not a re-post


err... what has this got to do with the Moto3??

i was commenting on the fact that all factory teams must have 15 riders!!!:shit:

They only have to supply 15 riders if required so you may see only 2 or 3 teams opt to run a particular manufacturers engine, if they won you would no doubt see 15 teams wanting them the next season.

[discodan]

If the Moto 2 bikes are slower than the 250s, then the Moto 3 bikes are going to be really slow compared to the 125s I would have thought.

[Ivan]

If the Moto 2 bikes are slower than the 250s, then the Moto 3 bikes are going to be really slow compared to the 125s I would have thought.

Apparently Honda havebuilt one which is lapping 1.6 seconds faster around Motegi than a 125 GP bike

[discodan]

Apparently Honda havebuilt one which is lapping 1.6 seconds faster around Motegi than a 125 GP bike

OK, I guess it depends how much they want to invest in the engine given the rules allowing another team to buy it for $10k.

[Quickrik]

And so MotoGP/2/3 dies as a protype championship and becomes yet another production based championship. Boo. Thank christ they didn't at least go down the spec engine route.

[pritch]

KTM have been playing with MotoX engines in GP frames. That 81mm max bore is a bit interesting, Honda at about 78mmm is the biggest I saw, the others I looked at were in the sixties.

[javawocky]

Wonder if Suzuki will be chipping in 15X gn250 engines to spice things up :Punk:

[F5 Dave]

May they scatter their puny valves over the racetracks of Europe.

[Maido]

And so MotoGP/2/3 dies as a protype championship and becomes yet another production based championship. Boo. Thank christ they didn't at least go down the spec engine route.

I don't see how this is this production based?

[Ivan]

I don't see how this is this production based?

Have to agree


and look at Scott Moirs 450 rs its fast ok so its a 450 but he doesnt also have the same ammount of money for research and development these guys do

[ajturbo]

the others I looked at were in the sixties.

fuck.. your OLD

[pritch]

I'm assuming you meant, "Fuck you're old"?

Probably even older than you'd guess... :whistle:

[sil3nt]

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/moriwaki-md250h-vs-aprilia-rs125-shootout-89190.html

[Maido]

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/moriwaki-md250h-vs-aprilia-rs125-shootout-89190.html

Am I correct in saying that that RS in that article is a road going one and not the GP version so it isn't really a correct comparason

[sil3nt]

Am I correct in saying that that RS in that article is a road going one and not the GP version so it isn't really a correct comparasonPretty sure the article makes that quite clear!

[Ivan]

Am I correct in saying that that RS in that article is a road going one and not the GP version so it isn't really a correct comparason

Yip the gayest comparison ever a bike with mint suspension mint chassis mint brakes vs a raod bike wih cheap brakes suspension etc a frame not designed for it and end of the day a learners road bike!

But even then that Moriwaki aint what they will be racing thats a CRF250x a enduro bike engine not even a full on race engine

[CHOPPA]

Looking at the lap times from ASBK where they run the MD250 against the RS125 Hondas they are on average 2 secs a lap slower

[Maido]

Goes without saying anyway but if they are going to replace the entire class lap (judging from AJturbos's original post they are) the times will be irrelevant anyway I suppose.
Typically you would think that the slower the bikes are the closer the racing will be, but this isn't always the case.

[steveyb]

Goes without saying anyway but if they are going to replace the entire class lap (judging from AJturbos's original post they are) the times will be irrelevant anyway I suppose.
Typically you would think that the slower the bikes are the closer the racing will be, but this isn't always the case.

Year a pretty gay comparo, and considering that they had the Honda RS125 of Daytona there, makes you think that infact the story was a bit of a marketing ploy for Honda/Moriwaki to make the MD250H look sweet.

However, laptimes is a really important part of the equation.
Riders and teams will not be attracted to ride in Moto3 if the bikes are quite a bit slower than the 125 2T bikes.
The MD250H was really the first attempt at making a customer Moto3 style machine and used a production engine. Various other Japanese factories have made bikes, but only Moriwaki tooled up to sell them.
The engines and transmissions of the Moto3 bikes are going to need to be quite a bit better than the CRF250x motor used in the MD250H. But there are prototype bikes running in Japan right now (well maybe not right NOW, but well, you know...) and only the factory prototype bikes can keep up with equivalently spec'd 125 2T bikes.
The rule also allows the use of quite a few more engines than the big bikes, suggesting that the engines will be somewhat consumable.
I still think that they should have gone for a 250 or 200 twin as Harold Bartol was suggesting. And also, why not let only customer 125s compete at the same time?
Like this year in Moto2, except no one wanted to play, and the first couple of years in MotoGP.

[Ivan]

Yeah I had some Japanese dude on Myspace add me ages ago and was saying in pigeon english about how he is riding for suzuki and they have been testing these four stroke motors sent me a link they look pretty quick going around track.

We need to look at it in the fact that whatever we say isnt going to mean anything and I love 125's they taught me everything I know, But times change bikes change and we will see that these bikes are going to be alot differnt than you think they will be no motogp team is going to develo a chassis then slap a RMZ or YZF450 engine it whats the point in that? they are going to build motors, Moriwaki probably allready have something up there sleeve and will build a engine based around the chassis they have built for the MDH

[SS90]

2 strokes re not dead, far from it.

Here in Europe (mainly KTM) still invest big money in developing (and now purchasing rights to the latest direct injection technology...which, believe it or not comes from Perth in Australia)

The systems work, pass Euro 4 laws,and still make more power than the equivalent 4 stroke.

Things like the move to GP 4 strokes are "big 4 pressure based", and, while currently are doomed to come into place, will, however, not remain for ever.

For manufacturers, it is about volume of sales, and profit per unit.

If, there is a clear market to increase 1) volumes, and 2) profit per unit, by concentrating on 2 strokes again, I assure you, it will happen.....

I foresee in a few years, modern 125's, subject to emmissions testing as part of racing homalgomation being permitted to compete (and beat) 250cc 4 strokes.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the 250cc 4 strokes are going to be anything like the current MH250 in terms of power, they are sadly mistaken, expect to see something like an engine that revs to 18,000 rpm, and produces in the area of 50ps (or more)

€10,000 to make a 250cc 4 stroke do this? Pfffttttt, they have been able to do that since the 70's

[Brian d marge]

2 strokes re not dead, far from it.

Here in Europe (mainly KTM) still invest big money in developing (and now purchasing rights to the latest direct injection technology...which, believe it or not comes from Perth in Australia)

The systems work, pass Euro 4 laws,and still make more power than the equivalent 4 stroke.

Things like the move to GP 4 strokes are "big 4 pressure based", and, while currently are doomed to come into place, will, however, not remain for ever.

For manufacturers, it is about volume of sales, and profit per unit.

If, there is a clear market to increase 1) volumes, and 2) profit per unit, by concentrating on 2 strokes again, I assure you, it will happen.....

I foresee in a few years, modern 125's, subject to emmissions testing as part of racing homalgomation being permitted to compete (and beat) 250cc 4 strokes.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the 250cc 4 strokes are going to be anything like the current MH250 in terms of power, they are sadly mistaken, expect to see something like an engine that revs to 18,000 rpm, and produces in the area of 50ps (or more)

€10,000 to make a 250cc 4 stroke do this? Pfffttttt, they have been able to do that since the 70's

agreed , I have a paper , long since misplaced , but it was a research paper , by Yamaha on direct injection

from memory the electrics weren't fast enough but they had a 100 cc engine up and running

I don't know about the big four , more like the big 1 maybe 2 , with possibly Honda leading the charge to bend err persuade the rule changes


Stephen

[steveyb]

2 strokes re not dead, far from it.

Here in Europe (mainly KTM) still invest big money in developing (and now purchasing rights to the latest direct injection technology...which, believe it or not comes from Perth in Australia)

The systems work, pass Euro 4 laws,and still make more power than the equivalent 4 stroke.

Things like the move to GP 4 strokes are "big 4 pressure based", and, while currently are doomed to come into place, will, however, not remain for ever.

For manufacturers, it is about volume of sales, and profit per unit.

If, there is a clear market to increase 1) volumes, and 2) profit per unit, by concentrating on 2 strokes again, I assure you, it will happen.....

I foresee in a few years, modern 125's, subject to emmissions testing as part of racing homalgomation being permitted to compete (and beat) 250cc 4 strokes.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the 250cc 4 strokes are going to be anything like the current MH250 in terms of power, they are sadly mistaken, expect to see something like an engine that revs to 18,000 rpm, and produces in the area of 50ps (or more)

€10,000 to make a 250cc 4 stroke do this? Pfffttttt, they have been able to do that since the 70's

Absolutely all true.
Euopean 2T engines have passed Euro4 laws for ages now.
The 4T push has come mainly at the insistance of Honda who are the biggest supporter of MotoGP and have been always a 4T company, only making 2T bikes when they had no other choice to compete.
I have heard through hearsay of numbers like 120-125 hp for the factory KTM 250 GP engine and clearly the Aprilia would not be far away.
4T racing is way more expensive than 2T racing at the prototype level. At the semi-production level like Moto2 t is less so, but then it is no longer prototype.

[SS90]

I have heard through hearsay of numbers like 120-125 hp for the factory KTM 250 GP engine


That's not quite true (rumors are generally based on so level of fact), but do expect to see KTM with the most powerful engine.

I hear they have some prototype engines with incredible power (like the 100 odd Dr Steve mentioned), but their power delivery and engine life is pretty shabby.

My guess is about 3/4 of the rumors..... anywhere from 65 to 85ps ( I earlier said 50ps, but I meant 70)......over 100 ps is realistic (sounds bollocks, but it is a reality), but, as always, they are going to be limited to a certain number of engines...... a single cylinder 4 stroke producing upwards of 100ps is about as stressed as it gets..... and although €10,000 buys you alot of magnesium, Titanium, carbon fiber and various alloys, these parts don't last long at 18 thousand odd revs per minute.

Producing just one set of prototype cases for a single cylinder engine ( I know for a fact KTM don't have the machinery needed to do this themselves, they have it done in the north of Germany), costs in excess of €80,000. (multi axis mills per hour charge out rate is phenominal)

So let's say that just the prototype cases (they then make the moulds from this prototype) cost's €80,000, (all up costs to be producing cases..... probably a cool €100,000) each engine costs €10,000 (how many engines do they need for a full team and privateers.....maybe 100?

Considering it used to cost 1 million to HIRE an Aprilia RS250 from the factory, if a company like KTM had to spend €1.1million on building it's first years stock of 250 4 stroke engines, it is, put in context, a pittance.

As for frames? Pffft....., KTM & Aprilia have a wealth of knowledge on this, and plenty of 125 and 250cc championship winning formulas.

Sheltered from Europe, NZ really only see the Japanese stuff, but it is with this new class, Kiwi's will start to see European companies (Oh, Husky have a team planned too I hear, when they where brought out by BMW 2 years ago, they installed a management team from Germany to "organise" the place, and BMW have shown their commitment to racing in WSB) "take it to the Japs" in a big way.

Rotax will be in their too (one way or another).

Then, when THEY have the strength (due to increased volume, spurred on by the sales gained from winning races), the pressure will come from THEM to introduce emission controlled 125cc to compete in the class alongside the 250cc 4 strokes.

Believe me, the future is 2 strokes.

They will have slightly less power than they are capable of, but be as low polluting as a 250cc 4 stroke.

And much much cheaper to produce. (No titanium valves, rods (don't need to rev over 14,000, where as a 4 stroke needs in excess of 18,000 to be even close in term of BMP), cams, cam chain so on and so forth)

Basically less than half the cost of producing a 4 stroke 250 single. (The fuel injection initially will be more costly, but as volumes increase, and investment capital is returned, the price will fall dramatically, and represent something closer to the 100 Euro price it actually costs to produce.

[cowpoos]

Wonder if Suzuki will be chipping in 15X gn250 engines to spice things up :Punk:

well...they have a class leading rmz250 motocross engines...13000rpm and over 40 hp

[cowpoos]

but do expect to see KTM with the most powerful engine.

yeah...they all ready out do honda and yamaha in the four stroke 250 MX engine department...

[steveyb]

I meant the 250 2T engine they were running in GP's.
Info came from a KTM contracted rider.