08/09 front end onto my 05 CBR 600RR

[dastrix]

Hi Gents,

On the weekend at my local race track (Eastern Creek) I had a major issue with my forks. Basically the bike did a huge endo into T9, having done nothing wrong or nothing I dont normally do my local suspension guy inspected the fork operation and said im only getting about 40mm of travel before the fork basically stops moving smoothly... he suspects the damping rod is bent. I haven't had any offers and the forks have Ohlins Springs/valves installed.

I've tried for many many months to find a set of 25mm Cartridges to replace my setup with no luck, Ohlins USA & Sweden and just about every other bloke dont stock, are out of stock or cannot make them for me.

I've now decided to just repair my 05 forks, flog them off and I've just today purchase a 09 new front end with top/bottom triple.

The diameter is the same, fork length, brake carrier etc etc all identical. A new 08/09 front wheel is required due to differing hubs and the below table shows the difference in rake/trail

05 - 09
Rake
24.0 degrees 23.9 degrees

05 - 09
Trail 95.0 mm (3.7 in) 97.7 mm (3.8 in)

As you can see the trail is a tad different. My intention with the new front end is to replace the guts with 30mm NIX Ohlins cartridges as im sick of stuffing around with springs/valves - requires far too much track side work.

Can anyone clued up confirm by raising the fork leg within the triple that the Trail can be adjusted to be more within geometery spec of the 05 bike? Theres approx 2.7mm difference and 0.1degree in rake.

Any isssues anyone can forsee with this? I managed to score the front end for $550 Aussie shipped with another $1100 USD for the Ohlins cartridges

Regards
Kris

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Gents,

On the weekend at my local race track (Eastern Creek) I had a major issue with my forks. Basically the bike did a huge endo into T9, having done nothing wrong or nothing I dont normally do my local suspension guy inspected the fork operation and said im only getting about 40mm of travel before the fork basically stops moving smoothly... he suspects the damping rod is bent. I haven't had any offers and the forks have Ohlins Springs/valves installed.

I've tried for many many months to find a set of 25mm Cartridges to replace my setup with no luck, Ohlins USA & Sweden and just about every other bloke dont stock, are out of stock or cannot make them for me.

I've now decided to just repair my 05 forks, flog them off and I've just today purchase a 09 new front end with top/bottom triple.

The diameter is the same, fork length, brake carrier etc etc all identical. A new 08/09 front wheel is required due to differing hubs and the below table shows the difference in rake/trail

05 - 09
Rake
24.0 degrees 23.9 degrees

05 - 09
Trail 95.0 mm (3.7 in) 97.7 mm (3.8 in)

As you can see the trail is a tad different. My intention with the new front end is to replace the guts with 30mm NIX Ohlins cartridges as im sick of stuffing around with springs/valves - requires far too much track side work.

Can anyone clued up confirm by raising the fork leg within the triple that the Trail can be adjusted to be more within geometery spec of the 05 bike? Theres approx 2.7mm difference and 0.1degree in rake.

Any isssues anyone can forsee with this? I managed to score the front end for $550 Aussie shipped with another $1100 USD for the Ohlins cartridges

Regards
Kris

Did you first try Steve Cramer in Oz, the authorised Ohlins distributor?

You will need revised settings for the NIX30, we dont run them straight out of the box ( thats the way the Yanks send them, they are pretty much only interested in just selling them ) We can send those settings to Steve Cramer so he can do the job. Those revised settings work fantastic.

[dastrix]

Gday Robert, I was hoping you'd reply - have seen alot of your very informative posts.

The NIX are coming from the states, whilst I have no doubts I can make them work I was hoping your wisdom could shed some light on the rake/trail or potential issues here

You're right, the US like to product move - when you want support they arent interested which I guess is given considering we are here/they are there

Is it possible to grab the settings and give them to my local guy (teknik here in Sydney) edit: realise this is unrealistic, sorry!

Regards
Kris

[Robert Taylor]

Gday Robert, I was hoping you'd reply - have seen alot of your very informative posts.

The NIX are coming from the states, whilst I have no doubts I can make them work I was hoping your wisdom could shed some light on the rake/trail or potential issues here

You're right, the US like to product move - when you want support they arent interested which I guess is given considering we are here/they are there

Is it possible to grab the settings and give them to my local guy (teknik here in Sydney) edit: realise this is unrealistic, sorry!

Regards
Kris

No worries. You need to grab a copy of Tony Foales software that includes details re rake and trail etc. Id work it all out for you but Im pressed for time. Someone else on here may be able to help that has the software or similiar.

Cynically I dont think the support if you are in the US is that flash either!

Im happy to avail those specs to Steve Cramer only, that because he looks after me and vice versa. ( We have no business relationship with Teknic )

[dastrix]

Thanks Robert, ill see what i can find on that software

Ok , not sure how I can get those settings from Cramer without buying product from him though :D

[dastrix]

Just on rake/trail, the steering stem fixed to the frame adjusts the rake if all things are equal right? fork length, triple clamp offset.

I know the fork length is the same, assuming the clamps to be the same therefore my rake/trail should not change by moving to 09 forks from 05 forks?

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks Robert, ill see what i can find on that software

Ok , not sure how I can get those settings from Cramer without buying product from him though :D

Tell Steve youve been talking to me and Ill fire the specs to him

[dastrix]

Thanks Robert, will do!

[DEATH_INC.]

I suspect the small trail difference is because of the small rake difference. It seems about right at a glance. The only thing other major thing other than rake that alters it is the triple clamp offset.

[dastrix]

Yep, the 0.1 degree in rake translate to 2.7mm of trail - thats how I understand it.. Makes sense if you draw out some triangles!

Im tyring to find out what the offsets are in 05 and 09 clamps...

Confirmed, offset is identical. Sweet!

[dazzler]

Hey Kris,

Did you manage to get your NIX 30 cart spec's changed by steve cramer ? If so could you tell me what the cost was.

I'm currently waiting on some for my 07 600rr and was told by the dealer in the US that the valveing ect wouldnt need to be changed, but it seems that they'll probably need it ( judging by what I have read on here ):angry:

What do you weigh and what rate springs you useing ?

Thanks

[Robert Taylor]

Yep, there are a lot of people worldwide selling Ohlins ( and many other suspension brands ) who say the settings dont need changing. In fact the settings out of the box are okay for many models but if you are racing can be improved further. As we found with NIX30.

I remember a few years ago when Canadian made Elka shocks were coming in for ATVs and for the odd road bike. The settings were so damn stiff almost every one of them had to be revalved and or resprung. Good shocks, terrible settings.
The interpretation of what these Yank companies are saying is that they are only interested in selling the product and beyond that you are on your own. Sad but oh so true. Kind of convenient for them when they are thousands of miles away from a less than pleased purchaser.

Whatever Steve Cramer has charged it will still be good value as the setting works really well. Hes certainly not likely to have done any favours on price nor would he be in any way obliged to as he didnt sell the cartridges in the first place.
Here in New Zealand we always send out with the latest settings and if there is an upgrade / improved setting we upgrade for our customers who we have sold to at a very friendly price.

We have in recent days analysed from hard evidence what it costs to import a set of cartridges and shocks etc from these resellers in the States. Its interesting because even the freight cost via US Postal Service is quite expensive. Add to that NZ Customs has under our current Government become a lot more attentive to charging clearancefees and gst on private imports of value, its almost now a dead certainty that these charges will apply. They certainly need the revenue!

We CKT have realigned a lot of our prices following negotiations and its interesting to note that the end price is almost exactly the same for most Ohlins product, on par or in some cases cheaper than privately importing. Certainly cheaper than purchasing offanyone masquerading as an Ohlins distributor when in fact there is only one such distributor in NZ!

Then there is all important and comprehensive back up. If you decide the fitted spring is not quite right for you we exchange at no further cost excepting courier recovery fees. Overseas ''spring rate calculators'' are by no means foolproof as they dont account for individual preference and seem to be biased to their much higher ratio of smooth and groomed roads in the first world economies. But if its posted on the net it must be correct right? Yeah right!


Similarly for valving, we tailor the spec to the individual. I always mistrust overseas based ''spring rate calculators'' as they are by no means real world foolproof, two different riders of identical personal stats can prefer different spring rates.

Very comprehensive backup makes a big difference.

[dazzler]

I would'nt expect to get any favours, but on the other hand, I would'nt want my pants pull down for the pleasure either. I'm more than happy to pay for the service's of a quality Tuner, providing I get what I pay for, But sadly in general it does'nt always happen.

So how much would you charge for the internal adjustments, based on the fact I purchased the cartridges from elsewhere ?

Also could you please explain how these cartridges are setup to perform out off the box, as in are they set up for a particular spring rate, rider and use ie street, track ect, if so what is it, or are they valved for a broad range, one size fits all kind of thing ?

Cheers

[Robert Taylor]

I would'nt expect to get any favours, but on the other hand, I would'nt want my pants pull down for the pleasure either. I'm more than happy to pay for the service's of a quality Tuner, providing I get what I pay for, But sadly in general it does'nt always happen.

So how much would you charge for the internal adjustments, based on the fact I purchased the cartridges from elsewhere ?

Also could you please explain how these cartridges are setup to perform out off the box, as in are they set up for a particular spring rate, rider and use ie street, track ect, if so what is it, or are they valved for a broad range, one size fits all kind of thing ?

Cheers

It would be fair to surmise that as with any suspension built in the Northern Hemisphere ( and all the quality stuff in that field comes from north of the equator ) the delivered settings are more biased towards their tracks, many of them fast flowing and smooth.
Its also fair to say that if you take suspension tuning to the nth degree for best possible lap times you will change the spring rates and valving from track to track. But that of course is not practical for most people and a generic base setting ( the setting we have passed onto the recognised Australian distributor ) will happily suffice for most riders with clicker setting and spring preload changes track to track.
If for example you lived in NZ ,bought them offshore and bought them to me Id charge you a fair and reasonable price mindful of engendering your respect for the work done and future business. If you bought them off me in the first place the update would automatically be done. Cant do better than that!
You probably realise that NIX30 cartridges are distinct from the earlier cartridges in that they come without springs so the decission is made at point of sale which springs will be most suitable on receipt of the customer profile etc. As I was pointing out in a previous post it is by no means foolproof trusting spring rate calculators. Here in NZ we cover our butts on that ( and the customers pocket ) by having a spring exchange service that is foc excepting courier recovery fees if the chosen springs turn out to be not quite ''correct'' for the rider. Its also very mindful of the fact that real wage rates here in the shaky isles are quite abysmal.
Our structures in place with the Ohlins product here in NZ mean that there is no advantage in buying offshore, quite the opposite in reality.

[Ozzy27]

I suspect the small trail difference is because of the small rake difference. It seems about right at a glance. The only thing other major thing other than rake that alters it is the triple clamp offset.

That is not correct. The effective Rake and trail are a factor of the whole bike set up. If the offset is the same rake and trail are affected by rear ride height. So More rear ride height = less rake and trail and lower rear ride height is the opposite. At the differences you listed most rider wouldn't notice the change and if you were up happy a small rear ride height change should sort it.:yes:
PS Front fork position also will have a similar affect on the effective rake and trail

[dastrix]

Gday Guys

Sorry, been away. So, the forks are now in the bike and its all up and running.

My cartridges have 1.0kg spring and after doing only 30mins of basic testing on the track (Eastern Creek) the fork travel is far improved over my previous springs/valves setup. I'm in a better range of travel now with the NIX.

my rear spring in the shock is a 1093-34 (H502 shock). Does anyone know what this spring is?

What I found with the NIX out of the box is that im getting weird stuff happen mid corner, its like the bike is pogoing or not holding a line. I tip in and im in the corner but it feels like the bike is wanting to stand up, then fall into the apex etc... Very unnerving. Under brakes and over bumps - the NIX is nothing short of amazing. Trail braking is HEAVILY improved. Overall they just feel leaps and bounds over what I had before - Im really looking forward to getting it setup right with my suspension guy.

My suspension tech did some adjustment with me at track, he mentioned he cannot slow the rear shock rebound down enough - Im at max setting on rear rebound so I think i need a reshim.

Does anyone why this mid corner issue is happening?

I can feel though that these forks have amazing potential and im looking forward to getting them right

Robert, I spoke to Steve but he never forwarded me anything :(

Cheers
Kris

[Robert Taylor]

Gday Guys

Sorry, been away. So, the forks are now in the bike and its all up and running.

My cartridges have 1.0kg spring and after doing only 30mins of basic testing on the track (Eastern Creek) the fork travel is far improved over my previous springs/valves setup. I'm in a better range of travel now with the NIX.

my rear spring in the shock is a 1093-34 (H502 shock). Does anyone know what this spring is?

What I found with the NIX out of the box is that im getting weird stuff happen mid corner, its like the bike is pogoing or not holding a line. I tip in and im in the corner but it feels like the bike is wanting to stand up, then fall into the apex etc... Very unnerving. Under brakes and over bumps - the NIX is nothing short of amazing. Trail braking is HEAVILY improved. Overall they just feel leaps and bounds over what I had before - Im really looking forward to getting it setup right with my suspension guy.

My suspension tech did some adjustment with me at track, he mentioned he cannot slow the rear shock rebound down enough - Im at max setting on rear rebound so I think i need a reshim.

Does anyone why this mid corner issue is happening?

I can feel though that these forks have amazing potential and im looking forward to getting them right

Robert, I spoke to Steve but he never forwarded me anything :(

Cheers
Kris

1093-34 is a 10 newton spring, 150mm free length.

All of the setting changes that I have forwarded to Steve Cramer will sort out the issue you describe, indeed what you have described pretty much mirrors what we found out of the box.

What I meant ( to clarify beyond all doubt ) about sending the specs to Steve Cramer is that in order to have the specs installed you have to send the forks to him. Steve and I work in well together and I owe him a favour or two. To not put too fine a point on it we toiled with this new stuff for a few weeks before we sussed it and to that end we just dont give the spec away, especially as this is a public forum that will be read by some of my competitors who would doubtless be very happy to have info that has cost me a lot but would cost them nothing. Ill hope you understand that caution on my part.

[dastrix]

GDay Robert,

Thank you - damn, so the forks need to come apart? I have a TD this Saturday - think Steve can work this magic before then? I knew I wasnt dreaming the feeling I was getting!

Understand perfectly.

Cheers
Kris

[dastrix]

1093-34 is a 10 newton spring, 150mm free length.

All of the setting changes that I have forwarded to Steve Cramer will sort out the issue you describe, indeed what you have described pretty much mirrors what we found out of the box.

What I meant ( to clarify beyond all doubt ) about sending the specs to Steve Cramer is that in order to have the specs installed you have to send the forks to him. Steve and I work in well together and I owe him a favour or two. To not put too fine a point on it we toiled with this new stuff for a few weeks before we sussed it and to that end we just dont give the spec away, especially as this is a public forum that will be read by some of my competitors who would doubtless be very happy to have info that has cost me a lot but would cost them nothing. Ill hope you understand that caution on my part.

Robert, how long do the settings take to perform? Can they be done at the track?

Thanks!

[dazzler]

Kris,

Regarding the problems your having, You may have a geometry problem. Are the new forks with the carts fitted the same lenght as the ones you removed, are they in the same position in the yokes/ tripples ect ?

I would think internal changes wouldnt take any longer that 30 minutes at the track with the correct tools. (if both sides needed to be opened up)

[Robert Taylor]

Kris,

Regarding the problems your having, You may have a geometry problem. Are the new forks with the carts fitted the same lenght as the ones you removed, are they in the same position in the yokes/ tripples ect ?

I would think internal changes wouldnt take any longer that 30 minutes at the track with the correct tools. (if both sides needed to be opened up)

It is NOT a geometry problem and I have been through this, I know exactly what the issue and the fix is and that is why I have directed Kris to Steve Cramer whom I have told. Also there are some specific mods that arent in this instance trackside mods.