So we all know how unprofitable it is to sheep farm atm

[F5 Dave]

Despite farmers being as slack as with spending any money on upkeep of fences etc, the trend for quite some time is to convert to Dairy farm or just be happy not to make any money.

but if one ventures into the meat isle in any super market Lamb is the most expensive 'mainstream' meat.

So where does the rest of the money go?

Presumably if the export market was depressed with low international prices, bad exchange & freight costs they'd sell off more profitably locally.

Who's making the money here?

[slofox]

Who's making the money here?

Mr Bloody Grocer man, that's who...

[F5 Dave]

Are you saying progressive & foodstuffs own the meatpackers?

[JimO]

we dont eat lamb, cant afford to according to she who buys the grocerys, NZ pork is a third the price of lamb

[merv]

Lamb is still my favourite, but eat smaller cuts these days to go easy on my figure so that helps the cost.

[F5 Dave]

Beef is my fav, but like variety & the wiff's roast lamb is the bomb. Going home to some mutton chops in the slow cooker. Even those once you carved the fat off weren't cheap. Mutton used to be what the poor eat.

Won't eat pork because of the welfare issues, although I get a little hypocritical on the odd occasion when bacon or kransky come into the equation, . . . but everyone needs a little hypocrisy to make them a balanced person.

[pete376403]

Are you saying progressive & foodstuffs own the meatpackers?

No, but they have the buying power to more or less dictate prices. There was something similar on Country Calendar a few weeks back where vege growers were being squeezed by the big chains, they (the veg growerrs) set up their own market where they were undercutting the supers, yet getting better returns for their efforts.

[Pussy]

The sheep farmers are definitely NOT getting fat.
It has been several years since they had a decent return

[danchop]

simple,dont buy from the supermarkets,its shit quality and most stuff on special is water injected.i now buy from the old school butchers,at least you get higher quality and they are often cheaper than the supermarkets

[T.W.R]

:shifty: grow your own :yes: $50 to get a sheep butchered & processed properly. Get a good vege garden going & run some free range chooks (ducks in our case) and the weekly shopping costs shrink dramatically :yes:

But if you want to F@#k a sheep or cropping farm in next to no time yep convert it to a friggin dairy unit :angry:

[SMOKEU]

The NZ meat is only fit to be made into dog food anyway, I don't see what the problem is.

[Hitcher]

So where does the rest of the money go?

About one third of what the customer pays is the retailer's margin. If everybody else in the supply chain clips the ticket, as they should, then it's not hard to figure out what the farm gate price should be.

It really pisses me off when sheep and beef farmers moan about farm gate prices. The meat industry they've got is the industry that they want. There's nothing they love more than several buyers lining up to buy their sheep and cattle. This farm gate marketplace is spectacularly successful at turning processors into volume driven rather than value driven operators. They have nothing left to invest in new product development, marketing strategies or other means of strengthening their market proposition because they have to pay 5c a kg more than their competitor on the day if they want to kill those animals.

Sheep and beef farmers are capitalists when prices are high and socialists when they're low. They've had longer to get their shit together than have their cousins the dairy farmers. They've also had some purple patches when prices for meat and wool (remember than now defunct industry that 30 years ago was New Zealand's third-largest earner of foreign exchange?) have been mind-numblingly high, and others when they have been bailed out by the New Zealand taxpayer to the tune of $1 million a day.

Strategies have been tabled before. Some have been extremely well thought out but have failed because of parochial pigheadedness. I predict that Beef+Lamb's latest initiative will fail for the same reason. This is a shame because New Zealand can grow more profitable land-based products than cows and pine trees.

[Hitcher]

its shit quality and most stuff on special is water injected.

Balderdash.

[98tls]

About one third of what the customer pays is the retailer's margin. If everybody else in the supply chain clips the ticket, as they should, then it's not hard to figure out what the farm gate price should be.

It really pisses me off when sheep and beef farmers moan about farm gate prices.

Sheep and beef farmers are capitalists when prices are high and socialists when they're low. They've had longer to get their shit together than have their cousins the dairy farmers. They've also had some purple patches when prices for meat and wool (remember than now defunct industry that 30 years ago was New Zealand's third-largest earner of foreign exchange?) have been mind-numblingly high, and others when they have been bailed out by the New Zealand taxpayer to the tune of $1 million a day.


It really pisses me off when someone compares sheep and dairy farmers,what price can you put on the shit dairy farmers do to this country every day not to mention the cost to the consumer come retail time.

[98tls]

Balderdash.

Though we agree on that.

[pete376403]

Balderdash.
Which part do you disagree with?
That it is water injected is fact, and not just plain water either:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-43YPYT8-4&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1431882754&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5a07e8d89aa08e2bddda03879e19931a

(this is a link to a US site but water injection of NZ meat was being discussed on National Radio not too long ago)

[Hitcher]

Which part do you disagree with?
That it is water injected is fact, and not just plain water either:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-43YPYT8-4&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1431882754&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5a07e8d89aa08e2bddda03879e19931a

No New Zealand beef or lamb processing company is injecting water into their products prior to sale. That's the part I'm disagreeing with.

[slowpoke]

It really pisses me off when sheep and beef farmers moan about farm gate prices. The meat industry they've got is the industry that they want. There's nothing they love more than several buyers lining up to buy their sheep and cattle. This farm gate marketplace is spectacularly successful at turning processors into volume driven rather than value driven operators. They have nothing left to invest in new product development, marketing strategies or other means of strengthening their market proposition because they have to pay 5c a kg more than their competitor on the day if they want to kill those animals.

Sheep and beef farmers are capitalists when prices are high and socialists when they're low. They've had longer to get their shit together than have their cousins the dairy farmers. They've also had some purple patches when prices for meat and wool (remember than now defunct industry that 30 years ago was New Zealand's third-largest earner of foreign exchange?) have been mind-numblingly high, and others when they have been bailed out by the New Zealand taxpayer to the tune of $1 million a day.

Strategies have been tabled before. Some have been extremely well thought out but have failed because of parochial pigheadedness. I predict that Beef+Lamb's latest initiative will fail for the same reason. This is a shame because New Zealand can grow more profitable land-based products than cows and pine trees.

To use your own description: balderdash.

They're screwed 'cos there are basically only 2 supermarket chains buying any great volumes. The farmers are victims of the lack of competition. The supermarket chains can give each other a nod and a wink and set humoungous margins with impunity. They're in the business of making money not selling product. If they can sell less and make more why would they do any different?

[jafar]

No New Zealand beef or lamb processing company is injecting water into their products prior to sale. That's the part I'm disagreeing with.

It is well known that the pork industry injects their product with water, so the idea of the beef & sheep processors doing the same isn't that far fetched. I'd like to see some proof on this argument either way.

[TimeOut]

Though we agree on that.

I third that.

It's idiots making false claims that don't help

[Paul in NZ]

You can eat meat? Who woulda thunk?

[Grubber]

About one third of what the customer pays is the retailer's margin. If everybody else in the supply chain clips the ticket, as they should, then it's not hard to figure out what the farm gate price should be.

It really pisses me off when sheep and beef farmers moan about farm gate prices. The meat industry they've got is the industry that they want. There's nothing they love more than several buyers lining up to buy their sheep and cattle. This farm gate marketplace is spectacularly successful at turning processors into volume driven rather than value driven operators. They have nothing left to invest in new product development, marketing strategies or other means of strengthening their market proposition because they have to pay 5c a kg more than their competitor on the day if they want to kill those animals.

Sheep and beef farmers are capitalists when prices are high and socialists when they're low. They've had longer to get their shit together than have their cousins the dairy farmers. They've also had some purple patches when prices for meat and wool (remember than now defunct industry that 30 years ago was New Zealand's third-largest earner of foreign exchange?) have been mind-numblingly high, and others when they have been bailed out by the New Zealand taxpayer to the tune of $1 million a day.

Strategies have been tabled before. Some have been extremely well thought out but have failed because of parochial pigheadedness. I predict that Beef+Lamb's latest initiative will fail for the same reason. This is a shame because New Zealand can grow more profitable land-based products than cows and pine trees.

Have to disagree with most of that. I have been in the industry and i know that as everything else in this country, that the price the farmer gets paid is totally reflective of what the meat industry gets on the export market. The person that clips the ticket on the way through is the exporter big time. this is why you pay dearly in the supermarket for lamb. Simply because the export price is so high. There was various plans devised over the years to set up independent export companies that work direct with the farmer and all have failed due to large export companies such as Canterbury Meats etc. It's been like this for centuries and as most industries , will probably be like this for many more.
Take a look at the humble 2 litre milk. How much do you pay for that? It can be totally reflective of what fontera makes on milk products over seas. In the dairy framers case, this can ammount to larger payouts for the year but is still no where near reflective of what it costs them to produce that 2 litre of milk.
It's like anything, if your not directly involved you won't know.

[danchop]

No New Zealand beef or lamb processing company is injecting water into their products prior to sale. That's the part I'm disagreeing with.
spose you also believe all supermarkets sell nz only meat too

[marie_speeds]

When sheep have been laying on their sides for a long time after falling over they have to be leaned up against a fence when you stand them up again to stop then falling over again. That's so funny and probably unprofitable too....

A friend was down in the Gisborne area last month and on the side of the road were boxes of free Kiwifruit. Turns out the grower was being paid 8cents a kg by the supermarkets but was required to pay the freight costs to get to the supermarkets. In the end the grower just decided to give the fruit away for free because the freight costs would have caused him to be out of pocket. Friend paid the grower for the box just to help him out...

[T.W.R]

It's been like this for centuries and as most industries , will probably be like this for many more.

1882 was the date of the 1st lamb exports.... so 128yrs not centuries


Take a look at the humble 2 litre milk. How much do you pay for that? It can be totally reflective of what fontera makes on milk products over seas. In the dairy framers case, this can ammount to larger payouts for the year but is still no where near reflective of what it costs them to produce that 2 litre of milk.
It's like anything, if your not directly involved you won't know.

production costs have stayed relatively the same as they were 30 odd years ago when a 600ml bottle cost 20 something cents, inflation costs haven't increased 400%+ in that time.
Fonterra's expense at buying up farms in Uruguay & other South American countires contribute to us paying more.
Thanks to an ultimate prize prick John Roadley who was a founder of Fonterra and one of the most despised farmers in the Rakaia area back in the 80s :yes:


When sheep have been laying on their sides for a long time after falling over they have to be leaned up against a fence when you stand them up again to stop then falling over again. That's so funny and probably unprofitable too....


lol seed drunkeness :drinknsin not that bloody funny when you're ploughing paddocks and the stupid damn things fall into the furrow and you have stop every round to move the buggers :spanking: getting them to run though is a hoot..... the last larger waltz on a mass scale :lol:

[Grubber]

1882 was the date of the 1st lamb exports.... so 128yrs not centuriy


production costs have stayed relatively the same as they were 30 odd years ago when a 600ml bottle cost 20 something cents, inflation costs haven't increased 400%+ in that time.
Fonterra's expense at buying up farms in Uruguay & other South American countires contribute to us paying more.
Thanks to an ultimate prize prick John Roadley who was a founder of Fonterra and one of the most despised farmers in the Rakaia area back in the 80s :yes:

Production costs have not stayed the same in actual fact. Wages alone have gone up some 400%.
Disagree on the farm purchases....export pricing has the largest effect on the price of milk on the shelf. This comes from someone who has been in the business.

lol seed drunkeness :drinknsin not that bloody funny when you're ploughing paddocks and the stupid damn things fall into the furrow and you have stop every round to move the buggers :spanking: getting them to run though is a hoot..... the last larger waltz on a mass scale :lol:

I think you should have been able to get my point regarding the century bit..

Production costs have increased over 350% in the past 30 years and there is data to coincide with this. The amount they earn off the exports is very much the reason you pay so dearly for the humble 2 litre. There is also plenty of data relating to this also. I personally don't have the time to write it all up now, but it is there.

Sleepy sickness actually is what it is called. It's caused by the lack of Nutrition in the last 4 weeks of pregnancy thus causing the body to utilize their fat to provide nutrition and the side effect of this is the production of ketone's which is toxic and this causes the stagger effect known as sleepy sickness. Most common is from being cast (rolled on side and not able to get to feet) for too long thus causing them to wander sideways for a while till they get there brain in gear again , so to speak. Also from someone who knows!

[Swoop]

The farmer must think their woolly beasts' are worth nothing. If they were valuable, then they would have decent fences to stop them wandering onto the roads...

[T.W.R]

Sleepy sickness actually is what it is called. It's caused by the lack of Nutrition in the last 4 weeks of pregnancy thus causing the body to utilize their fat to provide nutrition and the side effect of this is the production of ketone's which is toxic and this causes the stagger effect known as sleepy sickness. Most common is from being cast (rolled on side and not able to get to feet) for too long thus causing them to wander sideways for a while till they get there brain in gear again , so to speak. Also from someone who knows!

That funny because after a few years working as an agricultural contractor the majority of farmers I worked for always called it seed drunkeness due to a fermentation stage that occurs during crop growth

[Grumph]

Ran into an exec from Silver Fern farms the other day - in the cardiac ward so I assume it's a stressful job...... He told me they can't get enough lamb for their export markets. This I assume is what's driving supermarket prices up.
We agreed that probably the main reason (other than dairy conversions) the flock numbers are down & dropping is the low wool price. Half of what the cocky used to get from a sheep was the wool return - with this gone they have to get more for the meat - or go dairy...
If TWR is indeed around Charing Cross he should know all about this - just look out the window.

[T.W.R]

If TWR is indeed around Charing Cross he should know all about this - just look out the window.

:shutup: bloody foggy here at the moment so can't see naff all :shutup: I was living and working in the heart of sheep & crop farming around Rakaia for nearly 20yrs and worked for one of the largest Agricultural Contractors in the district as Head operator for a few of those

[Grubber]

That funny because after a few years working as an agricultural contractor the majority of farmers I worked for always called it seed drunkeness due to a fermentation stage that occurs during crop growth

Sheep farming since i was knee high and still got shares in the Family farm (not too far from where you were or are actually) Fellas you work for may call it Sleep drunkiness but if you google you will see what i mean.
As for the fermentation of crops....hmmmm...not too sure about that one.

[Grubber]

That funny because after a few years working as an agricultural contractor the majority of farmers I worked for always called it seed drunkeness due to a fermentation stage that occurs during crop growth

This may help..think your sleep drunkeness may have been a crop farmers name for this....

Introduction: Sleep drunkenness
Description of Sleep drunkenness
Sleep drunkenness: a half-waking condition in which the faculty of orientation is in abeyance, and under the influence of nightmarelike ideas the person may become actively excited and violent. SYN: somnolentia (2).
Source: Stedman's Medical Spellchecker, © 2006 Lippincott Williams


It's a human condition!

[T.W.R]

Sheep farming since i was knee high and still got shares in the Family farm (not too far from where you were or are actually) Fellas you work for may call it Sleep drunkiness but if you google you will see what i mean.
As for the fermentation of crops....hmmmm...not too sure about that one.



so being a sheep farmer you know absolutley nothing about rye grass staggers & Phalaris staggers :shit:
you should do a bit of research

and I didn't say sleep drunkeness........SEED DRUNKENESS & yeah it's slang term used by cockies

[Grubber]

so being a sheep farmer you know absolutley nothing about rye grass staggers & Phalaris staggers :shit:
you should do a bit of research

and I didn't say sleep drunkeness........SEED DRUNKENESS & yeah it's slang term used by cockies

As it so happens i do...it's due to the content of Alkaloids in mainly fresh new grass. It occurs at the 6 to 8 week stage of growth and is caused mainly by the meteorological status at the time.
In older grass the Alkaloids are mainly perlolene which has no effect. In early seedlings halostochine may be present and this is the one that causes ryegrass staggers. due to the fact that GOOD sheep farmers don't graze on these early grasses, it seldom occurs nowadays.

It has no relation to fermentation of any sort.

Anythiing else you would like to know?

[F5 Dave]

. . .
Sleepy sickness actually is what it is called. It's caused by the lack of Nutrition in the last 4 weeks of pregnancy thus causing the body to utilize their fat to provide nutrition and the side effect of this is the production of ketone's which is toxic and this causes the stagger effect known as sleepy sickness. Most common is from being cast (rolled on side and not able to get to feet) for too long thus causing them to wander sideways for a while till they get there brain in gear again , so to speak. Also from someone who knows!
Bleeding 'eck. I think I've been suffering from this!:shit: I'm not pregnant, but the symptoms are similar. Maybe I've got Angry Sheeps Disease (ASD):blink:. Mind you I didn't have that mutton last night, couldn't eat anything. & the small person in the other room waking up several times didn't help much.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
We agreed that probably the main reason (other than dairy conversions) the flock numbers are down & dropping is the low wool price. Half of what the cocky used to get from a sheep was the wool return - with this gone they have to get more for the meat - or go dairy....
ahh, now that is a good point.

[T.W.R]

As it so happens i do...it's due to the content of Alkaloids in mainly fresh new grass. It occurs at the 6 to 8 week stage of growth and is caused mainly by the meteorological status at the time.
In older grass the Alkaloids are mainly perlolene which has no effect. In early seedlings halostochine may be present and this is the one that causes ryegrass staggers. due to the fact that GOOD sheep farmers don't graze on these early grasses, it seldom occurs nowadays.

It has no relation to fermentation of any sort.

Anythiing else you would like to know?

you took over 30mins to google that :shutup:

[Grubber]

Bleeding 'eck. I think I've been suffering from this!:shit: I'm not pregnant, but the symptoms are similar. Maybe I've got Angry Sheeps Disease (ASD):blink:. Mind you I didn't have that mutton last night, couldn't eat anything. & the small person in the other room waking up several times didn't help much.

Best ye check the pregnant bit first.....you know, just to rule out the obvious!:done:

[Grubber]

you took over 30mins to google that :shutup:

HaHa. didn't need to google that. I'm trying to do some work here too. But this is all just too interesting to be honest.
You are right in what you say about the ryegrass but it's hardly very prevalent now days. Have to admit i didn't think about it because of the name you mentioned (seed drunkeness) but i have always found it interesting how different types of farms (crop, Cattle Dairy etc) all have there own idiosyncrasy's when it comes to all these things.

The sleepy drunkeness from me was a tad tongue n cheek.:innocent:

[T.W.R]

HaHa. didn't need to google that. I'm trying to do some work here too. But this is all just too interesting to be honest.
You are right in what you say about the ryegrass but it's hardly very prevalent now days. Have to admit i didn't think about it because of the name you mentioned (seed drunkeness) but i have always found it interesting how different types of farms (crop, Cattle Dairy etc) all have there own idiosyncrasy's when it comes to all these things.

The sleepy drunkeness from me was a tad tongue n cheek.:innocent:

It's been nigh on 15yrs since I was wrapped up in the game, even though contracting was a good way to make money fast (only due to the fact there wasn't any time to spend what you were making), farmers think they've got it tough & work hard well try being on the contracting side of it when the Harvest is in full swing :yes: I went on to better things (driving Earth Movers).
All the farms I've been on (a farkin huge number) I can honestly say that a GOOD farmer is a very rare thing...what's seen from the roadside only hides whats actually going on within the guts of the farm away from prying eyes

[avgas]

A friend was down in the Gisborne area last month and on the side of the road were boxes of free Kiwifruit. Turns out the grower was being paid 8cents a kg by the supermarkets but was required to pay the freight costs to get to the supermarkets. In the end the grower just decided to give the fruit away for free because the freight costs would have caused him to be out of pocket. Friend paid the grower for the box just to help him out...
Old man "leased" his orchard out last few years.
Last year his return was -$2000 for 20 acres
I was very tempted to cut the whole lot up for firewood - makes me fucking mad when I see only reject kiwifruit sitting out NZ shelves and the growers are still getting fucked.
I give Zespri 5 more years before they fuck-up and sell their new, yellow formula to the Chinese. History repeats here.

[Grubber]

Old man "leased" his orchard out last few years.
Last year his return was -$2000 for 20 acres
I was very tempted to cut the whole lot up for firewood - makes me fucking mad when I see only reject kiwifruit sitting out NZ shelves and the growers are still getting fucked.
I give Zespri 5 more years before they fuck-up and sell their new, yellow formula to the Chinese. History repeats here.

Same here. totally stupid idea that was. We had the monopoly with the kiwifruit and then they go sell plants to the very place we exported to.
how bad is that.

[Grubber]

It's been nigh on 15yrs since I was wrapped up in the game, even though contracting was a good way to make money fast (only due to the fact there wasn't any time to spend what you were making), farmers think they've got it tough & work hard well try being on the contracting side of it when the Harvest is in full swing :yes: I went on to better things (driving Earth Movers).
All the farms I've been on (a farkin huge number) I can honestly say that a GOOD farmer is a very rare thing...what's seen from the roadside only hides whats actually going on within the guts of the farm away from prying eyes

As much as i hate to admit it, you are right in saying that.
My family farm is up in Mayfield and we can see over the neighbors fence too often. I am still very proud of my brothers as they do keep very good techniques and very tidy farms, but alas they are few and far between.
I too used to be heavily involved in Cropping as are my brothers now. We didn't use contractors though, we had and still do have our own harvesters etc. Much better option.
I went out of the frying pan and into the fire. In Transport now and have the same problem with the seasonal timing. No holidays here in the summer.

[F5 Dave]

Best ye check the pregnant bit first.....you know, just to rule out the obvious!:done: Well the wife is considerably pregnant & I do sleep in the same bed. . . do you think I could have caught it from her?:blink:

[F5 Dave]

Same here. totally stupid idea that was. We had the monopoly with the kiwifruit and then they go sell plants to the very place we exported to.
how bad is that.
Didn't the Chinese have Gooseberries before?

[Grubber]

Well the wife is considerably pregnant & I do sleep in the same bed. . . do you think I could have caught it from her?:blink:

You got a serious problem there dude.

Didn't the Chinese have Gooseberries before?

I believe the name Chinese Goosberries was purely just that. Had little to do with the country itself. Could be wrong though.

[Grubber]

Ha1 Just did a little research. you are in fact correct. But they sold their plants and seeds to ....wait for it.....USA. NZ then got them from USA in 1906 and the rest is history. USA gave up cause they didn't like them too much apparently (go figure, probably didn't have any sauce on them) so stopped growing them in the early 1900's. they did in fact come from China but were a lot smaller and a delicacy at the time. They have now been developed into the large fruit they are today and yep....sold back to China.

Well done young man!

[F5 Dave]

Yeah so it took the Kiwi's to steal the fruit, pump them up on 'roids & sell em back to the unsuspecting world with a new name.


Yeah mate, 'course they are native, the Kiwis eat them to keep themselves regular don't cha know. That's why they lay such big eggs mate.:blink:

[marie_speeds]

It's a human condition!

It sure is! I've done it a few times myself. Fallen over,couldn't get back up and then when I have gotten back up I've had to lean on something to keep myself standing.:thud:

[EJK]

Speaking of sheep, this news just in...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4031522/Pair-who-crammed-14-sheep-in-car-jailed

[Grubber]

Yeah so it took the Kiwi's to steal the fruit, pump them up on 'roids & sell em back to the unsuspecting world with a new name.


Yeah mate, 'course they are native, the Kiwis eat them to keep themselves regular don't cha know. That's why they lay such big eggs mate.:blink:

That would pretty well sum it up......hey...so what was this thread about again?

[F5 Dave]

I forget.

Well I still have this slow cook mutton casserole to get trhough tonight but my guts are still rumbling, the whole thing might be moot as I'd save money by not eating.

[meteor]

a little confused... do you sheep farm or farm sheep?

[Grubber]

a little confused... do you sheep farm or farm sheep?

Hmmmm....interesting question. It would be Farm Sheep i thunk!

[Grubber]

Speaking of sheep, this news just in...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4031522/Pair-who-crammed-14-sheep-in-car-jailed

Thats gotta be some kinda record doesn't it!:Punk:

[Str8 Jacket]

I forget.

Well I still have this slow cook mutton casserole to get trhough tonight but my guts are still rumbling, the whole thing might be moot as I'd save money by not eating.

Imagine how much faster your motorbike would go too! ;)

[F5 Dave]

What without me on it? -cause I haven't felt well enough to get on one of those thingy-ma-giggies in a week.

Ooeer I said Giggie in a sheep thread.:love: