Correct technique in fast sweepers?

[Hans]

Hi all,

I think I'm managing to improve my general riding slowly but surely. The one thing that causes me grief are fast sweepers. If the road surface is less than perfect, I have trouble keeping the front stable. A good example of where this happens is te left hander on top of the hill just north of Te Marua heading towards the Takas. We're talking reasonable speeds too, no mad shit.
I've found that hanging off a little bit and holding onto the tank with my knee to disconnect from the bike and minimise my grip on the bars helps (DUH). What else can I do? Ta.

[Pixie]

Get a new rear damper - it sounds like the rebound damping is wrong.

[Bass]

Get a new rear damper - it sounds like the rebound damping is wrong.

Adjustable on the RF

[Gremlin]

make sure your suspension is set up correctly and not shagged. Suspension, like an engine, needs servicing, just not quite as frequently. The bike will also relay what you are feeling, nervous or confident. Other than that, don't try to force the bike to stay still, having it move a little is natural.

[awayatc]

too much air in front (and rear) tyre can also make bike " bouncy"

[Hans]

Hi, the suspension is not really the issue here, except for the slightly sub-optimal front springs. This is more about my riding technique. I am aware that when the bike is not as settled as it could be, I shouldn't be fighting it but rather let it do its thing to a point. Further input?

[javawocky]

Are you applying throttle before the turn and gradually applying more as you go through?

Are you sitting a little back in the seat - not putting your weight on the front like so many X moto X'rs?

Can you describe in more detail what the front is actually doing? Bouncing, shaking, pushing?

[CHOPPA]

Im having similar problems, I have booked in to the California Superbike School. Just a few tips they gave me yesterday really improved my cornering

[Kiwi Graham]

Get yourself along to a track day/rider training day that has some decent instructors who can help you work through this.
Developing a technique to 'diconnect' yourself from your bike is not where you should be heading!

As is usually the case a few simple pointers in the right direction and a safe, consistant enviroment to practise them on will have your confidence up there again.

It has to go without saying, make sure your bike is up to scratch in all respects if you want to get the most out of it.

[CHOPPA]

Are you sitting a little back in the seat - not putting your weight on the front like so many X moto X'rs?



haha hmmm sounds like me!

[Hans]

Are you applying throttle before the turn and gradually applying more as you go through?

Are you sitting a little back in the seat - not putting your weight on the front like so many X moto X'rs?

Can you describe in more detail what the front is actually doing? Bouncing, shaking, pushing?

Spot on. That is part of the problem. I can't use enough throttle, because I try to keep things semi-legal. Can you imagine what my exit speed would be if I enter a corner at 100kmh and start winding it on in 3rd? So the solution is probably in moving my weight back a bit more. To answer the other part: the bike just doesn't feel composed. As if the front suspension wasn't quite reacting fast enough and was playing catch up.

[Hans]

Get yourself along to a track day/rider training day that has some decent instructors who can help you work through this.
Developing a technique to 'diconnect' yourself from your bike is not where you should be heading!

As is usually the case a few simple pointers in the right direction and a safe, consistant enviroment to practise them on will have your confidence up there again.

It has to go without saying, make sure your bike is up to scratch in all respects if you want to get the most out of it.

I think I may have used the term ''disconnect'' a little loosely. I meant positioning myself in order to hold the bars with minimum force and maximum feel. And the bike is absolutely up to scratch with the exception of the front springs. Wrong weight. These are budgeted for around December.

[Deano]

Spot on. That is part of the problem. I can't use enough throttle, because I try to keep things semi-legal. Can you imagine what my exit speed would be if I enter a corner at 100kmh and start winding it on in 3rd? So the solution is probably in moving my weight back a bit more. To answer the other part: the bike just doesn't feel composed. As if the front suspension wasn't quite reacting fast enough and was playing catch up.

You should be able to go through the corner with a small amount (neutral) throttle and the bike should still feel planted.

From your second comment, is the front overdamped ? What weight fork oil do you have ? Being cold it might not be flowing fast enough.

How are you steering head bearings ?

[MSTRS]

Regardless of suspension settings, both ends MUST work together. Otherwise you get the seesaw effect of each end working independently.

[Hans]

You should be able to go through the corner with a small amount (neutral) throttle and the bike should still feel planted.

From your second comment, is the front overdamped ? What weight fork oil do you have ? Being cold it might not be flowing fast enough.

How are you steering head bearings ?

Steering head bearings are fine(checked about 500km ago). The front is basically racetech internals and ohlins springs. Done and set up by RT, albeit for someone about 15kg lighter. Don't know the oil weight.

[javawocky]

haha hmmm sounds like me!

The names have been changes to protect the innocent :shifty:

[slofox]

My personal theory is that the less you meddle with what the bike is trying to do, the less grief you are likely to collect.

Which means relaxing, not fighting uneven services, going with the machine, letting the bike do the work.

[Deano]

Steering head bearings are fine(checked about 500km ago). The front is basically racetech internals and ohlins springs. Done and set up by RT, albeit for someone about 15kg lighter. Don't know the oil weight.

You could try setting the sag for your weight then. It might be undersprung, forcing to use the bottom end of the suspension travel.

[riffer]

Bollocks to all of you.

I've ridden this very bike. There's nothing wrong with it, unless the tyre pressures have changed or the tyres have worn since I last rode it. I'd love to have the suspension setup Hans has got.

I think the problem has to be the nut between the headset and the seat Hans. Come around and see me - I'll give you some pointers on punting an RF through the corners.

[grbaker]

On a RF900.... f, had one for about 1.5years... couldn't get the cornering sorted... font end keep slipping out, high speed sweapers mosty but even flicky over in the tighter corners.

Went from a GSX750FL(8 years) to the RF900 and kept wondering what I was doing wrong, even swapped out tyres to better gripping ones... helped the smallest bit.

After upgrading to the nibble SV650S and learning to corner with confidence again I happend to catch with a couple of other RF900 ex-owners... we all thought it was a natural balance problem with the bike... feels like there is too much weight over the front end to start with.

No expert on the subject.. just ramblings from a previous owner of the model.

Good luck (but I wouldn't spend any real money on it).

[Metastable]

Sorry to go back to the suspension and maybe it is sorted out perfectly, but I'm just going to throw out a couple of points.

- You could have the best suspension out there and you could have terrible results if it isn't set up correctly.
- Have you had someone that knows what they are doing to dial in the suspension? (no need to answer, just saying)
- If the front forks rebound too slowly, then as you hit bumps the front can start to "pack" and basically you lose travel. A good way to test this is to put a zip tie on your fork to see if it is bottoming out. You mentioned the suspension is a bit slow.... this could be the case, even if it isn't packing, you would have to quicken the rebound.
- If the rear rebound is too slow, then that can cause you to track wide.... although this is usually seen more on an off camber corner, decreasing radius corner or tighter corner... it's hard to finish off the turn, ROYAL PIA.
- You also mentioned Racetech internals and Ohlins springs..... that kinda doesn't make sense. When you say Racetech internals, that means springs.... mind you the suspension could have been revalved... maybe that's what you mean. In this case, the suspension would be much more sensitive to setting changes. I can "pack" my front suspension by pushing down with my thumbs on the triple tree, IF I have the rebound as slow as possible!!! It has been revavled for track riding and has slightly heavier springs because it is a track only bike, set up by a guy who knows his stuff.
- Make sure the sag is set FOR YOU. Do the "bouncy" test and make sure the front and rear are coming up at the same time.

If it isn't suspension.... it's you. :D Now everyone here has a different opinion on riding, but if the front is vague... I'd want to throw more weight over the front, not less; however that doesn't mean holding on to the bars tighter.... stay loose..... therefore, constant throttle not increasing throttle. Also don't be on/off/on/off on the throttle... that just makes the suspension load and unload over and over and it could make it difficult to hold a steady line too.

Just my thoughts.... hope you get it sorted.

[sinfull]

Realise you have already said the bike has been set up by RT but for someone 15 kg lighter, but that is a fair amount of Hans there mate ! Wouldn't hurt to check all yr settings anyway !

http://www.gostar-racing.com/club/How_I_set_up_my_motorbike.pdf

[Hans]

Bollocks to all of you.

I've ridden this very bike. There's nothing wrong with it, unless the tyre pressures have changed or the tyres have worn since I last rode it. I'd love to have the suspension setup Hans has got.

I think the problem has to be the nut between the headset and the seat Hans. Come around and see me - I'll give you some pointers on punting an RF through the corners.

You're correct. As I said in the OP. I'm asking for technique, not technical advice. Will take you up on yer kind offer soonish. Oh yeah, and the tyres are brand spanking at the moment. Barely scrubbed in.

[Hans]

On a RF900.... f, had one for about 1.5years... couldn't get the cornering sorted... font end keep slipping out, high speed sweapers mosty but even flicky over in the tighter corners.

Went from a GSX750FL(8 years) to the RF900 and kept wondering what I was doing wrong, even swapped out tyres to better gripping ones... helped the smallest bit.

After upgrading to the nibble SV650S and learning to corner with confidence again I happend to catch with a couple of other RF900 ex-owners... we all thought it was a natural balance problem with the bike... feels like there is too much weight over the front end to start with.

No expert on the subject.. just ramblings from a previous owner of the model.

Good luck (but I wouldn't spend any real money on it).

With respect, I think you're missing the point. The bike is fairly close to being perfect. What I am asking for is some technique advice to get more out of an already reasonably sorted bike.

[CHOPPA]

You're correct. As I said in the OP. I'm asking for technique, not technical advice. Will take you up on yer kind offer soonish.

As soon as someone mentions suspension around here mate its all on!

[CHOPPA]

With respect, I think you're missing the point. The bike is fairly close to being perfect. What I am asking for is some technique advice to get more out of an already reasonably sorted bike.

Like I said.... California Superbike School.... I thought i had cornering sussed and long sweepers were still a bit of a problem, they pretty much said i need to change my whole style

[Hans]

Like I said.... California Superbike School.... I thought i had cornering sussed and long sweepers were still a bit of a problem, they pretty much said i need to change my whole style

Fair enough. What might that cost? The question is a theoretical one only, since I'll be pretty broke for the next two years at least, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

[Pussy]

Take Simon up on his offer, Hans.
The components at both ends of the suspension on your bike are top notch... maybe find someone in your neck of the woods who KNOWS what they are doing have a look at the set up.
Be mindful, though, that a lot of people wouldn't know the difference between shit and putty until their windows fell out, as far as set up goes.

[SPP]

have a look here (http://www.utorrent.com/downloads), and then here (http://www.kickasstorrents.com/search/twist%20of%20the%20wrist/)

[Duc]

Hi, the suspension is not really the issue here, except for the slightly sub-optimal front springs. This is more about my riding technique. I am aware that when the bike is not as settled as it could be, I shouldn't be fighting it but rather let it do its thing to a point. Further input?

You say that but the evidence points to the bike setup. IMHO - bike setup is very subtle but makes a huge difference. eg tyre pressure, tyre condition, shocks setup etc...

If you only experience this when the surface gets a bit gnarly..what are you doing different. Maybe you just seriously tense up?

My Ducati has no issues in the same situation and I dont do anything different. The bike manages without additional input from me.

[Insanity_rules]

Track days and such could be the key here Hans, not suggesting that your a crap rider. Any bike will react to minute changes in how you shift your weight and hold yourself when you corner.

I found when I first got the big Ducati that I was a bit intimidated by it so I'd tense up in corners. I can tell you that all you have to do is think about cornering and the SS is round it, so by tensing up I was causing it to understeer (so too speak). I've found the key is the basics such as look in the direction you want to go (big no brainer but that basic works no matter how fast your going) and relax.

[Bandit Rider]

The thing that has not been mentioned is pushing forward on the inside handlebar. It gives dampening, only a little is required in a sweeping corner. Basically works with the counter steering and stabilises the bike.

[Insanity_rules]

The thing that has not been mentioned is pushing forward on the inside handlebar. It gives dampening, only a little is required in a sweeping corner. Basically works with the counter steering and stabilises the bike.

+1, this is a good technique.

[Devil]

The thing that has not been mentioned is pushing forward on the inside handlebar. It gives dampening, only a little is required in a sweeping corner. Basically works with the counter steering and stabilises the bike.

Thats fine unless you're riding a really nicely balanced bike that doesn't require any steering input mid corner. I could pretty much let go of the bars on my old Speed Four mid corner and it'd just keep doing what it was doing.

[grbaker]

With respect, I think you're missing the point. The bike is fairly close to being perfect. What I am asking for is some technique advice to get more out of an already reasonably sorted bike.

A little but my point was that I have ridden other standard road bikes and had no issues with sweepers, cornering etc bar on the RF900.

I happy to conced that your bike has been modified a far bit... but the problem you discribed sounded very familiar.

[Eyegasm]

Thats fine unless you're riding a really nicely balanced bike that doesn't require any steering input mid corner. I could pretty much let go of the bars on my old Speed Four mid corner and it'd just keep doing what it was doing.

With correct throttle control, this can be acheived on almost any bike.

[george formby]

For what it's worth, I'm a tootler not a racer, I have found body position to have a considerable effect on the stability of my bikes. Things like weighting the pegs, gripping the tank & moving body weight forward, back, left & right to keep the bike composed. Accelerating from the apex, even gently has a stabilising effect. I notice you use a left hand corner as an example. Not quite sure why but myself & other riders I know are far more confident / committed through right handers than left as my stuffed front tire will attest.
Maybe have a tutu on some familiar corners thinking about your weight shift (smoothly) to see if it makes a difference. It does not take much change in input to make a big difference to the bike.

[tamarillo]

Fair enough. What might that cost? The question is a theoretical one only, since I'll be pretty broke for the next two years at least, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Agree - technique! Less than $200 with experienced racer/trainer at Manfield...must be worth it - I am going from Nelson!

http://www.prorider.co.nz/motorcycle-training-courses.php?course=4

Tim

[Devil]

With correct throttle control, this can be acheived on almost any bike.

On the assumption that the tyres are good and suspension is balanced... even then it's a stretch to say almost any bike.

[Crisis management]

With correct throttle control, this can be acheived on almost any bike.

I think you are missing the point here, a correctly balanced bike doesn't need any control input, counter steering, throttle, body position, to maintain a line.

To Hans, sounds like the RF is naturally heavy on the front so unless you want to invest in re-suspending it you are looking for a way to ride around the limitations, my suggestions are tyre sizes / widths and training.....Riffers cheap!

Just so that doesn't sound condescending, all my bikes (being dual purpose) are compromised on the road so riding around the limitations is a way of life for me.

[DEATH_INC.]

The thing that has not been mentioned is pushing forward on the inside handlebar. It gives dampening, only a little is required in a sweeping corner. Basically works with the counter steering and stabilises the bike.
+1 on this...I struggled with it a bit on roadbikes when I first got off trailies....

[javawocky]

+1 on this...I struggled with it a bit on roadbikes when I first got off trailies....

I think I learned this intuitively when going down the 'Straight' at Hampton Downs at speed on the mighty SV. You have to put a lot of pressure on the bars to keep it turning while going over the famous jump/bump/hump (pick one depending on your speed)

[Devil]

I think I learned this intuitively when going down the 'Straight' at Hampton Downs at speed on the mighty SV. You have to put a lot of pressure on the bars to keep it turning while going over the famous jump/bump/hump (pick one depending on your speed).
Get your turning movement done before you hit it. You're most likely to unsettle the thing by still leaning on the bars at that point.
Come out of 6 up towards 7 slightly to the left, then initiate your turn before the hump. Once the bike is turning you can get rid of the steering input and go straight over the hump (still leaning of course).

[javawocky]

.
Get your turning movement done before you hit it. You're most likely to unsettle the thing by still leaning on the bars at that point.
Come out of 6 up towards 7 slightly to the left, then initiate your turn before the hump. Once the bike is turning you can get rid of the steering input and go straight over the hump (still leaning of course).

I think I was getting most of my turning done after the bump, but I was going over it way slower than most of the top boys.

What I did observer at the nations was Bugden and Stroudy turning form really wide before the bump and the bump hardly effecting them while Mr Sherrifs (sorry) was having a harder time of it, getting more air and having to be more brave to bring it around.

Anyway, I look forward to getting back and honing the skills.... (:shutup: what skills?)

[Devil]

What I did observer at the nations was Bugden and Stroudy turning form really wide before the bump and the bump hardly effecting them while Mr Sherrifs (sorry) was having a harder time of it, getting more air and having to be more brave to bring it around.

Yep, thats what i'm talking about.
Yer if you're going quite a bit slower straight-line it over the bump then turn. Keeps everything pretty tidy.

Bah, I need another track bike. (err and to get this cast off).

[Hans]

Thats fine unless you're riding a really nicely balanced bike that doesn't require any steering input mid corner. I could pretty much let go of the bars on my old Speed Four mid corner and it'd just keep doing what it was doing.

Funny that. I can do the same on new-ish tyres and a good surface.

[Latte]

Yep, thats what i'm talking about.
Yer if you're going quite a bit slower straight-line it over the bump then turn. Keeps everything pretty tidy.

Bah, I need another track bike. (err and to get this cast off).

I dunno, ~10km/h and a 200cc bike and you break your wrist ............. maybe you shouldn't have sold the scooter :yes:

[beyond]

My GSX14500 would probably be heavier in the front than most road bikes but even so, in tight corners and in high speed sweepers I get my weight up close to the tank, lean my upper body and drop my inside shoulder well into the turn. You must also have a relaxed grip on the bars so the bike can move as it needs to.

Try this and you may find it all comes together, assuming you do have your suspension sorted which it sounds like you have.

[sinfull]

I sit way back with my arms stretched to the max and just ride the wallow that usually comes mid every corner, when the frame touches down (must make that neadit slider) i know i've reached maximum lean angle and when i pull up for a smoke or piss and see the sides of my new metzlers are worn off, i know i have reached max compression !
But get a speeding ticket on the Rimatakas ? Yeah right !

[Hans]

But get a speeding ticket on the Rimatakas ? Yeah right !

How about the Haywards then? Sounds more realistic. Passed a stationary bike cop with his laser gun out on last Saturday. Was really happy to be stuck behind a car for once.

[sinfull]

216938
How about the Haywards then? Sounds more realistic. Passed a stationary bike cop with his laser gun out on last Saturday. Was really happy to be stuck behind a car for once.

Got stuck behind a car once myself Hans lol yeah and ya think to yaself, i knew it was the spidey sence that held me back !