Chemist vs Crook [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

slofox

25th August 2010, 14:47

Gonna be interesting to see what the full story is, for sure. I reckon the crook probably had a heart attack or something. I can't see the Chemist being charged though.

That's pretty much my take on it too to be honest. The Chemist hardly looks like a bovvaboy duzzee?

Edbear

25th August 2010, 14:50

That's pretty much my take on it too to be honest. The Chemist hardly looks like a bovvaboy duzzee?

Yeah, he's a cuddly teddy bear of a bloke and at 68 not exactly in his prime years, or in prime ohysical shape, either. But the expression on his face and his demeanour on the news footage was of a man who would defend his business and himself without hesitation and to have "grappled with" the burglar shows his mettle.

Bald Eagle

25th August 2010, 14:58

Almost gaurantee there will be some form of criminal charges laid against the chemist.

No doubt the Police will be reluctant to not lay charges and be swayed by the fear of public opinion and will " let the Courts decide"

neels

25th August 2010, 15:06

Expect the usual - guy gets charged for a bit of window dressing to appease the piece of crap criminal's family who are wailing about how sad it is that they're dead, but charges dropped at depositions by judge who decides it's not in public interest to prosecute. Police can then claim to have done their job, good guy gets off, criminal's family can't bleat about no charges being laid.

Win all round, including the taxpayer who's not forking up $60k a year for another prisoner.

Indoo

25th August 2010, 15:08

Edbear

25th August 2010, 15:23

The gunshop owner who shot the guy with the machete was deemed to have acted in self-defence and not charged for the shooting itself, so why would an unarmed chemist be charged unless you guys know more details than what the media is letting on?

Hello! Where you been? Haven't seen you on here for a while, unless you've been on different threads and I haven't seen your posts.

Speculation is such fun... :sunny:

JimO

25th August 2010, 15:28

bet the taxpayer picks up the bill for the funeral.....acc he did afterall die at work

Techno

25th August 2010, 15:34

Chemist 1, Crook 0 :yes:

Edbear

25th August 2010, 16:17

Chemist 1, Crook 0 :yes:

A good result, I'd say... :shifty:

Mental Trousers

25th August 2010, 16:22

Why do criminals have rights?

Banditbandit

25th August 2010, 16:31

Why do criminals have rights?

Why do bikers have rights ? Are we an Islamic country now ?

Mental Trousers

25th August 2010, 16:48

In general, Bikers don't chose to violate the rights of others. Criminals do. But they're still allowed to have the same rights as the people whose rights they've violated. Why is that?

slofox

25th August 2010, 17:05

In general, Bikers don't chose to violate the rights of others. Criminals do. But they're still allowed to have the same rights as the people whose rights they've violated. Why is that?

You have a point MT. If you choose to go outside the law, you are outside of it. How can you expect it to still encompass you?

It's the old story - "My rights are sacred. My responsibilities don't exist..."

marie_speeds

25th August 2010, 17:06

http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10668648

schrodingers cat

25th August 2010, 19:05

I'd be shiting myself if I were the chemist. OSH will be round to assess the site following a death in his workplace.
He'll be wishing the police did lock him up after 'death by a thousand (paper) cuts'

Rogue Rider

25th August 2010, 19:17

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4057918/Chemist-told-to-rest-after-fatal-struggle

So who reckons the chemist will be slapped with causing the burglar's death? Would be typical, woonit?

Personally, I reckon we oughta give him a medal...

I just can't understand NZ law, if someone breaks into your property, they should forfeit any rights as a human being as they are at that point doing something, somewhere they shouldn't.
In most countries, self defense is accepted, if someone dies as a result of their injuries breaking the law, tough luck. There should be no consequence to any proprietor or resident if an intruder enters a property.
Criminals have far too many rights in this country..... rant rant rant...... pc pc pc pc.....

That guy that tried to hold up a gun shop and got shot, that was another farcical episode. We have a right to defend ourselves/ family, and protect our property.:argue::argue::argue::argue::argue::argue ::argue::argue::argue::argue:

BOMBER

25th August 2010, 19:18

lock up the chemist he is the bloody thief.......rip of merchants
Lock up some dentists to for that matter

Edbear

25th August 2010, 19:24

I just can't understand NZ law, if someone breaks into your property, they should forfeit any rights as a human being as they are at that point doing something, somewhere they shouldn't.
In most countries, self defense is accepted, if someone dies as a result of their injuries breaking the law, tough luck. There should be no consequence to any proprietor or resident if an intruder enters a property.
Criminals have far too many rights in this country..... rant rant rant...... pc pc pc pc.....

That guy that tried to hold up a gun shop and got shot, that was another farcical episode. We have a right to defend ourselves/ family, and protect our property.:argue::argue::argue::argue::argue::argue ::argue::argue::argue::argue:

Just let it all out, mate, tell us how you really feel.... :yes:

lock up the chemist he is the bloody thief.......rip of merchants
Lock up some dentists to for that matter

And don't forget the vets, the lawyers, the Pollies, the oil company execs... heck just lock everyone up.... :sunny:

Rogue Rider

25th August 2010, 19:31

Just let it all out, mate, tell us how you really feel.... :yes:

Agreed, I need to let it out, hang on, just getting into position on the sofa........

And don't forget the vets, the lawyers, the Pollies, the oil company execs... heck just lock everyone up.... :sunny:

Now then, lawyers = extortionists, Oil Companies = conspiracers to curupt and defraud motorists, Popo = well, they are as honest and sincere as the crims the prosecute..... they don't get to catch the real ones though, they get away with it.

BOMBER

25th August 2010, 19:32

And don't forget the vets, the lawyers, the Pollies, the oil company execs... heck just lock everyone up.... :sunny:

yup Im with you on that

schrodingers cat

25th August 2010, 19:43

heck just lock everyone up.... :sunny:

Cept you and me eh? And I'll be watching you pretty closely...:sunny:

munster

25th August 2010, 20:17

In general, Bikers don't chose to violate the rights of others. Criminals do. But they're still allowed to have the same rights as the people whose rights they've violated. Why is that?

Totally agree with that one. And then my daughter tells me she wants to be a lawyer . . . . . . . .

Edbear

25th August 2010, 20:25

Totally agree with that one. And then my daughter tells me she wants to be a lawyer . . . . . . . .

Prosecuting or Defence...? :shifty:

Edbear

25th August 2010, 20:27

Cept you and me eh? And I'll be watching you pretty closely...:sunny:

How much trouble could a couple of KB'rs get into....? :innocent:

schrodingers cat

25th August 2010, 20:46

How much trouble could a couple of KB'rs get into....? :innocent:

I wouldn't have the energy to cause trouble after boy scouts, choir practice and general being nice to old people and kittens...

Edbear

25th August 2010, 20:48

I wouldn't have the energy to cause trouble after boy scouts, choir practice and general being nice to old people and kittens...

Well, that's me doomed then.... You've left precious little for me to do and you know what they say about idle hands... :bye:

Genie

25th August 2010, 20:51

Why do criminals have rights?

Now this is something I have always got antsy about...the moment a person commits a crime I personally feel that they have then revoked all their rights as a member of society. They are breaking the rules of society, they feel the rules don't apply so then why should the rights apply...geez, I'm getting wound up now. Bastards!

kave

25th August 2010, 20:54

The security guard will be fooked. He walked through the premise and didn't spot the offender who was hiding inside. I cant imagine he will keep his job.

Spazman727

25th August 2010, 22:19

The gunshop owner who shot the guy with the machete was deemed to have acted in self-defence and not charged for the shooting itself, so why would an unarmed chemist be charged unless you guys know more details than what the media is letting on?

didn't he get a suspended sentence? I thought he was convicted of attempted murder but given a suspended sentence because the jury were real people who feel the same as most people about defending one's own property/life.

Swoop

26th August 2010, 15:21

didn't he get a suspended sentence? I thought he was convicted of attempted murder but given a suspended sentence because the jury were real people who feel the same as most people about defending one's own property/life.
Nope. The police dropped the charges (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10444307), meaning it never went to court.

Banditbandit

26th August 2010, 16:56

They are breaking the rules of society, they feel the rules don't apply so then why should the rights apply...geez, I'm getting wound up now. Bastards!

How about those of us who feel that the laws of the road don't apply ?

slofox

26th August 2010, 16:59

How about those of us who feel that the laws of the road don't apply ?

You'ms all jus' bad buggers is all...

Genie

26th August 2010, 17:12

How about those of us who feel that the laws of the road don't apply ?

Ditto...how can you ride the road and think the rules don't apply to you? That's arrogant....do you ride on the left or right? Do you give way at intersections? Stop signs mean anything?

Mental Trousers

26th August 2010, 18:46

How about those of us who feel that the laws of the road don't apply ?

Don't bitch when you get caught. I've got no problem with people who want to step outside the law. But if they do and they get caught they don't deserve to be treated the same as those who are within the boundaries of the law.

Genie

26th August 2010, 20:34

Don't bitch when you get caught. I've got no problem with people who want to step outside the law. But if they do and they get caught they don't deserve to be treated the same as those who are within the boundaries of the law.

Hey Mr Mental...those that live within the boundaries of law would not receive any treatment as they are not stepping over any lines that would require enforcement. They are not attracting any attention as they do no wrong. Whereas those that step outside the law should receive harsher penalities.

Personally, I do have a problem with those that step outside the law. As one of the many that resides in this society crime does affect me, insurance prememiums is just one aspect of how I'm affected. The idiot doing burnouts in his crappy skyline outside my house...that also affects me and how I'd love to throw some spikes in front of his car and then crush it!

As to this incident concerning the pharmacy...hope there are no charges laid. It's hard enough for people in business without being ripped off.

TimeOut

27th August 2010, 06:29

Str8 Jacket

27th August 2010, 07:50

The security guard will be fooked. He walked through the premise and didn't spot the offender who was hiding inside. I cant imagine he will keep his job.

Except for the fact that as we were not there we have no idea if the offender came back through the hole in the wall afterwards or if he was in fact hiding in the shop.....

Mental Trousers

27th August 2010, 08:59

Hey Mr Mental...those that live within the boundaries of law would not receive any treatment as they are not stepping over any lines that would require enforcement. They are not attracting any attention as they do no wrong. Whereas those that step outside the law should receive harsher penalities.

Personally, I do have a problem with those that step outside the law. As one of the many that resides in this society crime does affect me, insurance prememiums is just one aspect of how I'm affected. The idiot doing burnouts in his crappy skyline outside my house...that also affects me and how I'd love to throw some spikes in front of his car and then crush it!

As to this incident concerning the pharmacy...hope there are no charges laid. It's hard enough for people in business without being ripped off.

Fair enough G.

I'm looking at it more from a personal responsibility + informed decision point of view.

By that I mean people know the possible consequences of their actions and have no come back if they are caught out, ie attempting an armed robbery may result in the offenders death or doing wheelies in front of Genie's house may result in your piece of shit car going to the crusher. So if someone decides to rob a Pharmacy they're accepting their actions may lead to their death.

Diminished Responsibility is bullshit.

Virago

27th August 2010, 09:52

Unfortunately, there is no definitive ruling that can be applied in each case.

For instance, someone pinching my newspaper from my mailbox in the morning is not the same as a life-or-death struggle in a home invasion. As much as I'd life to shoot the fucker with the newspaper, the law would come down on me like a ton of bricks - and rightly so. Most self defence (or property defence) cases fall somewhere between the two extremes, and each must be taken on its own merits.

The key issue here is whether the case should be tested by prosecuting and send it to court. The police will invariably take a dim view of any sort of self-defence, and will prosecute, on the basis of "let the courts decide". In doing so, the legal system effectively puts the victim of a crime through absolute hell.

The real pisser for me, is that the police don't apply such tests to themselves. If a police officer fatally injures someone in the course of their duties, the police will investigate it themselves, before invariably deciding that it was a justified action, and will not send it to court. Effectively, police have declared that they are the only citizens with any legally untested right of self defence.

Kickaha

27th August 2010, 17:58

For instance, someone pinching my newspaper from my mailbox in the morning is not the same as a life-or-death struggle in a home invasion. As much as I'd life to shoot the fucker with the newspaper, the law would come down on me like a ton of bricks - and rightly so. Most self defence (or property defence) cases fall somewhere between the two extremes, and each must be taken on its own merits.

Gateway crime

If you kill him now it will save the courts and police wasting time on him later

Patrick

27th August 2010, 18:44

So who reckons the chemist will be slapped with causing the burglar's death? Would be typical, woonit?

Personally, I reckon we oughta give him a medal...

I vote medal. No charge still..... :yes:

didn't he get a suspended sentence? I thought he was convicted of attempted murder but given a suspended sentence because the jury were real people who feel the same as most people about defending one's own property/life.

Nah. He was only charged with unlawful possession of a pistol. He was not charged with the shooting at all, as it was self defence.

...... The police will invariably take a dim view of any sort of self-defence, and will prosecute,

Interesting... theory....

The real pisser for me, is that the police don't apply such tests to themselves. If a police officer fatally injures someone in the course of their duties, the police will investigate it themselves, before invariably deciding that it was a justified action, and will not send it to court. Effectively, police have declared that they are the only citizens with any legally untested right of self defence.

And the rest is just crap. Ask any cop that has been through the IPCA and multiple Internal Investigations. No stone is left unturned, and the decisions to charge are left to the legal beagles..... As well as having specific protections under the law, for upholding the law......

doc

27th August 2010, 19:42

Isn't this a case of "It is better to judged by twelve than carried by six" situation ?

kave

28th August 2010, 05:19

There has been some more information released.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4070859/Pharmacist-tells-how-burglar-hid-inside-shop

ynot slow

28th August 2010, 08:46

No way ACC,thought rules had changed if participating in illegal activities,to me burgulary is in that category,bloody good on the owner,saved heaps in prison time for taxpayer,give the old bugger an award to society from govt next time they due.

slofox

28th August 2010, 12:14

There has been some more information released.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4070859/Pharmacist-tells-how-burglar-hid-inside-shop

"Police said an autopsy on Jones had not conclusively established the cause of death, and no decision had been made on whether Mr Gillard would face charges."

If they do charge him they need their arses kicked through the wall...