It's amazing what an oil change can do

[SMOKEU]

Up until today, I hadn't changed the oil in about 5,000km and I hadn't changed the oil filter in about 10,000km.

Over the past few months, the gear changes on my bike have become rougher and rougher. Sometimes it would take 5 or 6 goes just to get it into neutral, and from neutral into first would sometimes take 3 or 4 attempts.

So I did an oil and filter change today, and it made a huge difference, it feels like new again! The gear shifts are so much smoother, and I can get neutral first time, every time. I no longer sometimes hook neutral instead of 2nd gear when attempting 18,000RPM gear shifts either.

It's amazing what an oil change can do!

[YellowDog]

Up until today, I hadn't changed the oil in about 5,000km and I hadn't changed the oil filter in about 10,000km.

Over the past few months, the gear changes on my bike have become rougher and rougher. Sometimes it would take 5 or 6 goes just to get it into neutral, and from neutral into first would sometimes take 3 or 4 attempts.

So I did an oil and filter change today, and it made a huge difference, it feels like new again! The gear shifts are so much smoother, and I can get neutral first time, every time. I no longer sometimes hook neutral instead of 2nd gear when attempting 18,000RPM gear shifts either.

It's amazing what an oil change can do!

I had the same experiece. I was worried my gearbox was on the way out.

After an oil change it was as smooth as silk :)

[Genie]

I guess that is why they are done every few thousand k's.:yes:

[tamarillo]

Surely a good oil is good for 5000 k's? I guess it works hard in a high revving unit but unless there is a problem a good oil should last surely? Any mechanics care to comment?

[SMOKEU]

Surely a good oil is good for 5000 k's? I guess it works hard in a high revving unit but unless there is a problem a good oil should last surely? Any mechanics care to comment?

I use Castrol semi synthetic (bike oil of course). I've heard the fully synthetic oils can make the clutch slip on these bikes. The dirty oil wasn't even black, it was a dark gold colour, but not that dark.

[Gibbo89]

Up until today, I hadn't changed the oil in about 5,000km and I hadn't changed the oil filter in about 10,000km.

Over the past few months, the gear changes on my bike have become rougher and rougher. Sometimes it would take 5 or 6 goes just to get it into neutral, and from neutral into first would sometimes take 3 or 4 attempts.

So I did an oil and filter change today, and it made a huge difference, it feels like new again! The gear shifts are so much smoother, and I can get neutral first time, every time. I no longer sometimes hook neutral instead of 2nd gear when attempting 18,000RPM gear shifts either.

It's amazing what an oil change can do!

might need to get onto mine too now!

[BIG DOUG]

What don't you change the filter when you do trhe oil?

[gatch]

It's common to only change the filter every second oil change. Provided of course you don't leave your services until the oil is blacker than the blackest black, times infinite..

[dipshit]

Surely a good oil is good for 5000 k's? I guess it works hard in a high revving unit but unless there is a problem a good oil should last surely?

Some oils can lose 30% of their viscosity index within a 1000 k's.

[SMOKEU]

What don't you change the filter when you do trhe oil?

With my shocking mechanical skills, I thought I probably wouldn't be able to put it all back together once I took the filter out. Surprisingly enough, I managed to do it on my own without any issues. I'll definately change the filter at every oil change from now on. Filters are cheap enough anyway. I cleaned out the filter mechanism with petrol as well.

[pritch]

It's common to only change the filter every second oil change.

Really?

I like Scumdog's recent comment to the effect that changing the oil without changing the filter is like wiping half your arse.

OK, I'm shallow but...

In reply to another comment, Castrol oils may not be quite what they claim. A judge ruled that they could call their oil "synthetic" but in their case the meaning has rather less than most. I say most because they are not alone, Shell have also adopted a version of Orwell's "new speak".

Neither of those gets in my bike but you pays your money and you makes your choice.

[dipshit]

Really?

I like Scumdog's recent comment to the effect that changing the oil without changing the filter is like wiping half your arse.

A lot of old oil is always trapped inside the engine. Like in oil coolers etc. Some bikes as much as 30% of the old oil stays behind. Doesn't matter as at least you are adding some new oil with fresh additives.

The filter material itself is perfectly fine for every 2nd change.

[BMWST?]

bikes that share the oil between engine and gearbox(ie most) are very hard on the oil

[AllanB]

Next time try another brand. I was running Castrol semi-synthetic and changed to Motul 5100 semi. There was an impressive improvement in shifting - and that was clean Castrol - it was only in there for under 1,000 kms.

Some bikes are more affected by oils in the shifting department than others, my Hornet is, and that's reiterated in other international forums. Various Hondas appear to be this way.

[Conquiztador]

Thanks for reminder!

[Quasievil]

Dont forget your Air Filter also, this is a piece of kit that always gets forgotten about, and this does affect your oil.
Replace it or clean it very well................properly

[Eyegasm]

Christ. I must be pedantic....

I change mine every 3-4000ks

Or it's just that I dont want the hyobag to explode before I have finished with it...

[cowboyz]

A lot of old oil is always trapped inside the engine. Like in oil coolers etc. Some bikes as much as 30% of the old oil stays behind. Doesn't matter as at least you are adding some new oil with fresh additives.

The filter material itself is perfectly fine for every 2nd change.


ummmm. my bike takes 3.8L oil

with 30% left behind that means I should only pay for 2.5L when i do my oil change but for some reason.. it always wants me to add 3.8L to fill it up......

why?????

[Cayman911]

it goes from amazing to a nuisance when you have to do it every 1500km.

[dipshit]

ummmm. my bike takes 3.8L oil

with 30% left behind that means I should only pay for 2.5L when i do my oil change but for some reason.. it always wants me to add 3.8L to fill it up......

why?????

I said *some* bikes. The oil cooled Suzuki bandits were a classic example.

And is that 3.8L the oil capacity after an engine rebuild...???

[cowboyz]

I said *some* bikes. The oil cooled Suzuki bandits were a classic example.

And is that 3.8L the oil capacity after an engine rebuild...???

i dont know! its a kawasaki. not a zooki.. it doesnt need rebuilding every 10000k!

[dipshit]

i dont know! its a kawasaki. not a zooki.. it doesnt need rebuilding every 10000k!

You put 3.8L in when you do an oil change.

In your owners manual it will state oil capacity after an engine strip and rebuild. That will tell you how much of the oil you are actually changing when you do a change.

[cowboyz]

You put 3.8L in when you do an oil change.

In your owners manual it will state oil capacity after an engine strip and rebuild. That will tell you how much of the oil you are actually changing when you do a change.

and yes....ok seriously..

3.2L without oil filter
3.8L with oil filter.

and it takes exactly that every oil change.

[scumdog]

A lot of old oil is always trapped inside the engine. Like in oil coolers etc. Some bikes as much as 30% of the old oil stays behind. Doesn't matter as at least you are adding some new oil with fresh additives.

The filter material itself is perfectly fine for every 2nd change.

But why NOT change the filter?

Too much of a tight-arse?:scratch:

That's the oonly reason I can think of.

[Conquiztador]

But why NOT change the filter?

Too much of a tight-arse?:scratch:

That's the oonly reason I can think of.

Could be lazyness... A pain to take off faering etc?

[T.W.R]

But why NOT change the filter?

Too much of a tight-arse?:scratch:

That's the oonly reason I can think of.

:shutup: you don't have a liver transplant everytime you get a blood transfusion do you :blink:

[dipshit]

and yes....ok seriously..

3.2L without oil filter
3.8L with oil filter.

and it takes exactly that every oil change.

There should be a 3rd capacity. The amount of oil after an engine strip down. (maybe you would need to look in a workshop manual for that)

[scumdog]

:shutup: you don't have a liver transplant everytime you get a blood transfusion do you :blink:

Wow, that's way out there BIll!

So why not every fourth oil change then?

[T.W.R]

There should be a 3rd capacity. The amount of oil after an engine strip down. (maybe you would need to look in a workshop manual for that)

There's three different oil amounts generally :yes:

ie: as per a Bandit 1200

Oil change = 3.3lt
Oil & filter change = 3.5lt
Overhaul = 4.6lt

As you say roughly a 1/3 variation from a dry rebuild

[imdying]

Yup, probably another 300-400ml more than 3.8l.

[T.W.R]

Wow, that's way out there BIll!

So why not every fourth oil change then?

Not really way out there because the oil in your engine is usually quoted as the life blood of the engine :yes:

[imdying]

:shutup: you don't have a liver transplant everytime you get a blood transfusion do you :blink:Toothbrush every time you clean your teeth, etc etc.

They're cheap, I change them every time, but it's not the end of the world to do it every second oil change. Let's face it, bikes are often written off quick enough that they could go their entire lives with no oil changes.

[imdying]

So why not every fourth oil change then?That could very well be fine also on many bikes. Filters are getting smaller, as are oil capacities, so the tolerance is getting less and less. Big old air cooled shit heaps will probably truck on regardless... the new BMW, less so.

[dipshit]

But why NOT change the filter?

Too much of a tight-arse?:scratch:

That's the oonly reason I can think of.

For a start my bike's manual only calls for a oil filter on every third 6k change. (I will go with every 2nd one though)

And ever noticed how long the oil pressure light is on for after an oil and filter change even though you may have pre-charged the filter. 5 or 6 seconds after the engine has started perhaps.

Just doing an oil change by itself sees the oil pressure light go off in the normal amount of time.

Why change something that simply doesn't need to be changed.

I instead put the money towards using more expensive synthetic oil and changing the air filter twice as often than the service manual calls for.

[T.W.R]

Toothbrush every time you clean your teeth, etc etc.

They're cheap, I change them every time, but it's not the end of the world to do it every second oil change. Let's face it, bikes are often written off quick enough that they could go their entire lives with no oil changes.

:shutup: some toothbrushes do more damage than good on the pearlies sometimes.

Though it's funny that some think they know more than the people who design & build engines :yes:
Most road bikes are recommended to change the filter every second oil change and some on the third oil change (ie: the bandit 1200 again, oil every 6000km & filter every 18000km).

[dipshit]

Though it's funny that some think they know more than the people who design & build engines :yes:
Most road bikes are recommended to change the filter every second oil change and some on the third oil change (ie: the bandit 1200 again, oil every 6000km & filter every 18000km).

Even this guy who has done his homework on oil and filters only changes his oil filters on every 2nd or 3rd oil change... http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/FilterStudy.html

[scumdog]

And ever noticed how long the oil pressure light is on for after an oil and filter change even though you may have pre-charged the filter. 5 or 6 seconds after the engine has started.


'Some' people have been known to whip the spark-plugs out of the motor when changing oil & filter.

And after prefilling new filter, fitting it and adding oil they crank the motor over until oil light goes out, fast cranking speed, no load on motor. (Of course on some bikes it may be more than a two minute job to remove plugs)

Then screw in plugs, hit the button and instant oil pressure.

But that's only 'some' people...:shifty:-

[dipshit]

There's three different oil amounts generally :yes:

ie: as per a Bandit 1200

Oil change = 3.3lt
Oil & filter change = 3.5lt
Overhaul = 4.6lt

As you say roughly a 1/3 variation from a dry rebuild

Yes, 200ml difference between doing the filter or not and an extra 1.1L over that again.

Whether you change the filter or not makes very little difference as far as leaving old oil behind.

And the filter element itself is up to handling much higher mileage as far as that side of things is concerned.

[dipshit]

'Some' people have been known to whip the spark-plugs out of the motor when changing oil & filter.

And after prefilling new filter, fitting it and adding oil they crank the motor over until oil light goes out, fast cranking speed, no load on motor. (Of course on some bikes it may be more than a two minute job to remove plugs)

Then screw in plugs, hit the button and instant oil pressure.

So it is a recognised problem then.

That's *one* reason I don't do a filter every change.

It's not because I'm lazy or am trying to save $20.

[T.W.R]

'Some' people have been known to whip the spark-plugs out of the motor when changing oil & filter.

And after prefilling new filter, fitting it and adding oil they crank the motor over until oil light goes out, fast cranking speed, no load on motor. (Of course on some bikes it may be more than a two minute job to remove plugs)

Then screw in plugs, hit the button and instant oil pressure.

But that's only 'some' people...:shifty:-

There are a few car engines out there that it is stated that when doing a oil change once filled and upon starting the motor let the engine build oil pressure under low pressure with the motor running at idle without any load otherwise damage may occur :yes: same can be applied to motorcycle engines as well due to the smaller size of the oil pumps & finer oil galleries that circulate oil around the engine

[onearmedbandit]

I change my engine every 5000km and keep the oil. Have I read my manual incorrectly?

[AllanB]

Seriously - unless the bike has been standing for ages there is plenty of oil on the internal surfaces to thoroughly protect your engine while the filter loads up after a change for a matter of a few seconds.

You'll find most people change their oil far more frequently than the factory recommends - ie my manual says oil/filter every 12,000 kms. I do mine every 6 or once a year whatever come first. Looking at the condition of the filters I've cut open I could easily change them every second oil change. Suzukis may be different of course, as there is a limit to how well a filter will work when full of metal :shifty:

There is a Internet theory that a oil filter actually works better after X time and they should be left in for a while.

Me, I just change it with the oil. It is like undies - sure they'd probably contain little anal explosions better if they were worn for a few days in a row, but it certainly nice to wear a fresh pair.

[SMOKEU]

From now on I'm going to do an oil and filter change every 4,000km. Might as well seeing it's such a highly strung little engine.

[neels]

Rather than changing it 20% more often, you could consider spending 20% more on the oil you use, and get the same result of it working better for longer.

Might be worth a chat to a bike shop and find out what they recommend for a 20 year old engine that's being thrashed up to 18000rpm, the latest singing and dancing oil in an old engine is not always a better combination.

[SMOKEU]

Rather than changing it 20% more often, you could consider spending 20% more on the oil you use, and get the same result of it working better for longer.

Might be worth a chat to a bike shop and find out what they recommend for a 20 year old engine that's being thrashed up to 18000rpm, the latest singing and dancing oil in an old engine is not always a better combination.

I've heard from people who own CBR250s that semi synthetic is best in these engines, so I'll probably stick with the Castrol semi synthetic bike oil and change it often.

[Cayman911]

my bike dont even have an oil filter lmao. hardcore aye, thanks honda.

[Conquiztador]

There are a few car engines out there that it is stated that when doing a oil change once filled and upon starting the motor let the engine build oil pressure under low pressure with the motor running at idle without any load otherwise damage may occur :yes: same can be applied to motorcycle engines as well due to the smaller size of the oil pumps & finer oil galleries that circulate oil around the engine

And here I was thinking we all did that, as it just makes sense.

[Logpot]

I've heard from people who own CBR250s that semi synthetic is best in these engines, so I'll probably stick with the Castrol semi synthetic bike oil and change it often.
218318

Spectro in mine - similar engine to the CBR and I can't fault the stuff

[SMOKEU]

218318

Spectro in mine - similar engine to the CBR and I can't fault the stuff

The Castrol always seems to stay quite a fairly pale colour as well, even after 5,000km.

[AllanB]

The Castrol always seems to stay quite a fairly pale colour as well, even after 5,000km.

Seriously for the same $, I recommend you trying one of the other Semi's on the market next time. After many, many years using Castrol I'm well off it.

[SMOKEU]

Seriously for the same $, I recommend you trying one of the other Semi's on the market next time. After many, many years using Castrol I'm well off it.

I'll give that a go next time round.

[MarkH]

My scoot's manual says to change the oil every 6,000kms and filter every 18,000kms. But the filter only costs about $8.50 for the genuine Suzuki one, so I just say "bugger it" and change it with every oil change.

[pritch]

There are a lot of threads about oil on most bike groups. Many generate more heat than light.

What follows is my favourite. YMMV, and others will have their favourites. I offer this for your information and edification, not to start an argument.

It's a long read, but if you persist you will know why motorcycles are hard on oils.

You will know which type of oils offer better protection and why. You will know how to identify them by the information on the label.

You will know that some oils are not quite what they claim, you will know which, and you will know why. This latter is important because some of you are using those oils.

Following on from that you may realise that it is just possible that some riders may know more about oil than the guys who designed their bike. If it's a Ducati anyway.

The posts you are looking for are those by Georgecis, he was an industrial oil professional.
Don't try and contact him, he died. I'm not sure if the two things are connected, but he suffered a head injury in a track accident and some time not *that* much later he died suddenly. If you read the posts you will realise that we all lost a valuable asset when George passed on.


http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/122020-motor-oil.html

Maybe i should have used the word "should" where I used the word "will", but I have faith in you guys. I think. :whistle:

[scracha]

My scoot's manual says to change the oil every 6,000kms and filter every 18,000kms. But the filter only costs about $8.50 for the genuine Suzuki one, so I just say "bugger it" and change it with every oil change.

You guys must have waaaay too much money or listen too much to the bike shop mechanic inspired propoganda. Modern engines are bulletproof. After the initial running in period the main problem they have to cope with is moisture. Put in a good quality oil and change it once a year. Warm it up properly and ride gently for first 10 kays. Done this for past 17 years on all my road bikes*, had NO problems** and many of the bikes I did pretty high kays (6 years of regular commute to Edinburgh*** and back did 23,000K a year, never mind the other riding) and usually owned for 3 or 4 years. Engine strip down on 1 of them revealed no damage and mates who bought the bikes from me had no problems.

If for some reason I did blow up an engine then I've more than paid for it with the saved time and money (plus think of all the wasted oil I've NOT polluted).

Black engine oil does not mean it needs changed. It's an old wives tale...again I reckon inspired by grease monkeys. Correspondingly, non-black engine oil does not mean it doesn't need changed.

Changing your engine oil every 1000 kays is a crock of shite and causes MORE engine damage.

*bar the three Suzuki 2 strokes I owned cos they seize/hole pistons every 3000Km or 2 months
**ok...and bar GPX750 POS that was owned for 3 weeks (and oil changed) when previous spanner monkey overtightening cylander head bolts causing them to crack caused engine to implode.
**bearing in mind regular well below freezing conditions compared to godzone that the engine had to start in

[MarkH]

You guys must have waaaay too much money or listen too much to the bike shop mechanic inspired propoganda.

Actually I go by the manufacturers recommendations, not the bike shop mechanics and Oil changes are pretty cheap for me. I do the change myself so I pay nothing for labour and the change only requires 1.3L of oil + $8.50 for a filter. I get 3 oil changes out of 4L of oil.

[MarkH]

You will know which type of oils offer better protection and why. You will know how to identify them by the information on the label.

http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/122020-motor-oil.html

Thanks for the link - lots of good info (I'm only about 20 pages in).

On a related note:
Does anyone know where I can find Mobil 10W-40 4T oil? I tried to find it when I got the scooter because I had been using Mobil 1 in the car and the manual recommended 10W-40 oil, but I've yet to see the stuff anywhere.

[SMOKEU]

Actually I go by the manufacturers recommendations, not the bike shop mechanics and Oil changes are pretty cheap for me. I do the change myself so I pay nothing for labour and the change only requires 1.3L of oil + $8.50 for a filter. I get 3 oil changes out of 4L of oil.

Phuck that's a small sump!

[scracha]

Actually I go by the manufacturers recommendations, not the bike shop mechanics and Oil changes are pretty cheap for me.
Manufacturers cover their arse and will err well on the side of caution with regards to oil change frequency.

Bike shops make fark all selling bikes so it stands to reason the manufacturers will underestimate the oil change frequency in order that the bike shops can make some pesos.

Just think about it for a minute.

[SMOKEU]

Manufacturers cover their arse and will err well on the side of caution with regards to oil change frequency.



From what I've seen, they tend to do the opposite.

[scumdog]

From what I've seen, they tend to do the opposite.

Yeah, I DO wonder at these: "By our (insert favourite brand of bike here) and you will only need to change oil every 50,000km or every 5 years" kind of manufacturers advertising blurb.

And it seems from comments here that despite the improvements YOU noticed in your bikes gear-shifting etc that you were in fact wasting your time and money....

Or have I read the comments wrong??/ (again!):blink:

[MarkH]

Manufacturers cover their arse and will err well on the side of caution with regards to oil change frequency.

Bike shops make fark all selling bikes so it stands to reason the manufacturers will underestimate the oil change frequency in order that the bike shops can make some pesos.

Just think about it for a minute.

Why don't you read the first post in this thread and just think about that for a minute?

[MarkH]

http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/122020-motor-oil.html

I've finished reading that thread - 83 pages, that took a while!
Thanks for the link though, I learnt quite a bit from reading that.

It was a bit of a laugh after reading everything that was written to see someone come in on page 60+ and say stupid shit like "my older bike doesn't need fully synthetic oil so I use semi-synthetic" - clearly someone that didn't read the thread before posting. At least I now know that semi-synthetic is not worth considering.

[pritch]

I've finished reading that thread - 83 pages, that took a while!
Thanks for the link though, I learnt quite a bit from reading that. <snip>
At least I now know that semi-synthetic is not worth considering.

I've had trouble convincing the Ducati dealer, or my local Honda dealer, to use full synthetic. They both use Motul so I still have the 5100 semi in my bike. Maybe that word "racing" on the label of both the Mobil and Motul packaging puts them off.

If you read all that though you'd probably like a neo or two? PM me your snail mail address and I post you a couple. :yes:

[MarkH]

If you read all that though you'd probably like a neo or two? PM me your snail mail address and I post you a couple. :yes:

LOL - I think I have more than enough neos for whatever - I've got a couple so strong I had to make a jig to separate them when they stuck together (causing some damage to each other). Not much you can't get from these guys: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/

[scracha]

Why don't you read the first post in this thread and just think about that for a minute?

He's gear changing at 18,000 RPM....hardly average road use.

[MarkH]

He's gear changing at 18,000 RPM....hardly average road use.

Is that really what you got from the first post?


Over the past few months, the gear changes on my bike have become rougher and rougher. Sometimes it would take 5 or 6 goes just to get it into neutral, and from neutral into first would sometimes take 3 or 4 attempts.

Getting into neutral as 18,000 RPM and neutral to first at 18,000 RPM - that doesn't seem likely. When I read the first post I got the impression that the gear changes had become rougher and rougher, then after an oil & filter change they suddenly became smooth again - this suggests that an oil change can do a lot of good for the smoothness of gear changes, regardless of RPM.

Is it possible that you completely missed the point and focused instead on one little thing mentioned in the post?

[SMOKEU]

Getting into neutral as 18,000 RPM and neutral to first at 18,000 RPM - that doesn't seem likely. When I read the first post I got the impression that the gear changes had become rougher and rougher, then after an oil & filter change they suddenly became smooth again - this suggests that an oil change can do a lot of good for the smoothness of gear changes, regardless of RPM.

Is it possible that you completely missed the point and focused instead on one little thing mentioned in the post?

I was meaning that it sometimes would go into neutral instead of 2nd gear when shifting at high revs. It doesn't do that anymore.

[scracha]

Or have I read the comments wrong??/ (again!

Yep


Is that really what you got from the first post?

Getting into neutral as 18,000 RPM and neutral to first at 18,000 RPM - that doesn't seem likely.

Wouldn't think it likely either but in the words of the man himself.......

no longer sometimes hook neutral instead of 2nd gear when attempting 18,000RPM gear shifts either




When I read the first post I got the impression that the gear changes had become rougher and rougher, then after an oil & filter change they suddenly became smooth again - this suggests that an oil change can do a lot of good for the smoothness of gear changes, regardless of RPM.

Is it possible that you completely missed the point and focused instead on one little thing mentioned in the post?

Possibly, but my original point wasn't actually focused on the first post (seemed obvious) but the numerous other posters stating that they piss money away changing their oil every 3000K's or when it turns black. Shit, I've read about guys changing their oil every 1000Km. I was trying to point out that the average bike when ridden properly can go a year between oil changes, even if doing highish kays. I was doing this to make people think twice about the need to change their oil and maybe saving them a few bucks in these hard times (and think of the happy polar bears).

A 4 cylinder 250 isn't the average bike and given his comments on other threads (perhaps mistakenly) I reckon SMOKEU thrashes the bejezus out of his bike. So yes, he should maybe change his oil (and check his valves :innocent:)more frequently. And no, I didn't deny that replacing fucked oil with good oil would smooth out gear changes.

Smokeu....just out of interest, what sort of oil do you use on your little screamer?

[SMOKEU]

Yep

A 4 cylinder 250 isn't the average bike and given his comments on other threads (perhaps mistakenly) I reckon SMOKEU thrashes the bejezus out of his bike. So yes, he should maybe change his oil (and check his valves :innocent:)more frequently. And no, I didn't deny that replacing fucked oil with good oil would smooth out gear changes.

Smokeu....just out of interest, what sort of oil do you use on your little screamer?

I thrash the absolute phuck out of it, but the bike loves it. At 15,000RPM it all comes alive like a hobo on crack.

I run it on Castrol Power 1 10W40 semi synthetic. As for getting the valve clearances checked, how much labour would be involved in that? I wouldn't even attempt to do something like that myself.

[MarkH]

Possibly, but my original point wasn't actually focused on the first post (seemed obvious) but the numerous other posters stating that they piss money away changing their oil every 3000K's or when it turns black. Shit, I've read about guys changing their oil every 1000Km. I was trying to point out that the average bike when ridden properly can go a year between oil changes, even if doing highish kays. I was doing this to make people think twice about the need to change their oil and maybe saving them a few bucks in these hard times (and think of the happy polar bears).

Well I would agree that changing the oil every 1,000 km would be going a bit over the top and also that every 3,000 km would be unnecessary if the manufacturer recommends every 6,000 km. Changing the oil when it turns black is also not needed - black oil is not necessarily in need of changing just as clean looking oil is not necessarily fine.

But I would disagree about leaving the oil for a year if doing high kms. Generally the oil should be changed once a year or when the amount of kms the manufacturer specifies are reached - whichever comes first. There is good reason why the oil should be changed every 6K, 8K or 10K as detailed in the service manual - that is why the manufacturers put that information in the service manual! Oil will require changing for many reasons - some additives help carry away contaminants from the engine which then get trapped by the filter, but those additives don't remain active forever and once depleted the oil no longer does that job as well as it should. Oil also absorbs moisture, some types more so than others - the water in the oil reduces the effectiveness as a lubricant and as a anti-corrosion agent, so replacing the oil helps a lot.

Changing the oil removes contaminants and provides a fresh batch of additives. With modern fully synthetic oils the oil itself may be fine for 50,000 kms, but the various contaminants that accumulate in the oil and the depletion of helpful additives mean that the oil should still be changed at the necessary intervals. Some of the contaminants in the oil will cause wear on moving components - that is the opposite of what you want from the oil.

Remember that a motorcycle with the oil lubricating the engine + gearbox + clutch will be much harder on its oil than a car with separate oil for the transmission and a dry clutch. The oil will get contaminated much faster and some oils will be damaged (shearing of plasticisers) by the gears - when compared to car oil.

Some of use run ~20,000 km per year and would like the bike to last for many years - to get >100,000 km out of the engine it is worth looking after it and changing the oil as often as the manufacturer recommends.

[grbaker]

I do about 10,000 to 14,000 commuting k's a year.... bike gets at least two (usally three) oil changes in that time and it always sounds better after an oil change. Oil filter every 2nd oil change.

Read a big'arse report on how much extra work motorbike engine oil does compared to average tin coffin. Basiclly the gear box also uses the same oil thus it is lubriccating more moving parts and wears out quicker.

Top end full synthetics should last longer the mineral (it why you pay the extra $30 for 4l).. Castrol 4T and Mobile One 4T is what I would recommend. I only use mineral oill if the bikes manual states not to use syntheic (like the wifes F650GS single).

[BMWST?]

'Some' people have been known to whip the spark-plugs out of the motor when changing oil & filter.

And after prefilling new filter, fitting it and adding oil they crank the motor over until oil light goes out, fast cranking speed, no load on motor. (Of course on some bikes it may be more than a two minute job to remove plugs)

Then screw in plugs, hit the button and instant oil pressure.

But that's only 'some' people...:shifty:-

what..just have the kill switch off.....crank until pressure light goes off...

[onearmedbandit]

what..just have the kill switch off.....crank until pressure light goes off...

Not all bikes turn over with the kill switch off though.

[Pixie]

I said *some* bikes. The oil cooled Suzuki bandits were a classic example.

And is that 3.8L the oil capacity after an engine rebuild...???

Funny.....I've had 2 B12s and they all drain virtually all the oil out and require the stated 3.3L to refill

[scracha]

Some of use run ~20,000 km per year and would like the bike to last for many years - to get >100,000 km out of the engine it is worth looking after it and changing the oil as often as the manufacturer recommends.
I'm only going from my own personal experience as I ws doing well over that mileage and some of my old shitter bikes were closer to 200,000km.

http://mootavic.olilolo.com/docs/CBR250v.pdf
Take of rad, take off rocker cover (can be a bitch in itself) and get busy with the feeler guages. You'll be longer getting the fairing off than checking the valves! Will probably take you a whole morning the first time. Gets tricky if the shims need doing though.

[scumdog]

what..just have the kill switch off.....crank until pressure light goes off...

Hmm..OK - but note onearmedbandits comment.

And it means your starter is fighting compression - and the motor has a load on it (of sorts) sans oil pressure - and at times it can take a bit on some motors for oil pressure to build.

In a multi I guess taking the plugs out could be a chore but on a naked V-twin it's less than 5 minutes total out and back in.

[imdying]

It's all moot... automotive oil systems in service (i.e. not a dry rebuild) can happilly handle an oil change situation, you guys are debating nothing.

[scumdog]

It's all moot... automotive oil systems in service (i.e. not a dry rebuild) can happilly handle an oil change situation, you guys are debating nothing.


But it's so much fun doing so...:D

[imdying]

I didn't say you had to stop :laugh:

But less techy people reading this shouldn't fear an oil change just because they've read a bit of bluster in this thread.

[Banditbandit]

Up until today, I hadn't changed the oil in about 5,000km and I hadn't changed the oil filter in about 10,000km.

Over the past few months, the gear changes on my bike have become rougher and rougher. Sometimes it would take 5 or 6 goes just to get it into neutral, and from neutral into first would sometimes take 3 or 4 attempts.

So I did an oil and filter change today, and it made a huge difference, it feels like new again! The gear shifts are so much smoother, and I can get neutral first time, every time. I no longer sometimes hook neutral instead of 2nd gear when attempting 18,000RPM gear shifts either.

It's amazing what an oil change can do!

I'd worry if that was my bike ... oil should be changed about every 5-6,000ks and the filter every second change. One change of oil and filter should not have that dramatic an impact ... maybe the fact that you were attempting 18,000 gear changes has done something ? I presume you mean without a clutch ? Even without a clutch I drop the revs before clickign the lever ...

One thing that does have a dramatic impact on the gear changes is the drive chain tension ... you didn't retension the chain at the same time per chance ?

[SMOKEU]

I'd worry if that was my bike ... oil should be changed about every 5-6,000ks and the filter every second change. One change of oil and filter should not have that dramatic an impact ... maybe the fact that you were attempting 18,000 gear changes has done something ? I presume you mean without a clutch ? Even without a clutch I drop the revs before clickign the lever ...

One thing that does have a dramatic impact on the gear changes is the drive chain tension ... you didn't retension the chain at the same time per chance ?

I always shift gear with the clutch fully pulled in, I tried to do some clutchless shifts a couple of times at low revs but it didn't want to change gear with the 'normal' amount of pressure applied to the gear shifter, and I didn't want to force it.

I always keep the chain at the correct tension, I haven't needed to tighten it in a few thousand km.

[Banditbandit]

ummmm. my bike takes 3.8L oil

with 30% left behind that means I should only pay for 2.5L when i do my oil change but for some reason.. it always wants me to add 3.8L to fill it up......

why?????

Most bike manuals will quote a figure for litres-of-oil with a filter change and without a filter change ... check yours and if the shop charges you the full amount without changing the filter then scream at them ... well, maybe politely point it out ..

[tamarillo]

With my shocking mechanical skills, I thought I probably wouldn't be able to put it all back together once I took the filter out. Surprisingly enough, I managed to do it on my own without any issues. I'll definately change the filter at every oil change from now on. Filters are cheap enough anyway. I cleaned out the filter mechanism with petrol as well.
Totally agree - oil and filter are cheap insurance.

[Banditbandit]

I change my engine every 5000km and keep the oil. Have I read my manual incorrectly?

Ummm ... yeah .. ummm ... what else do you do that the manual tells you ?

[cowboyz]

Most bike manuals will quote a figure for litres-of-oil with a filter change and without a filter change ... check yours and if the shop charges you the full amount without changing the filter then scream at them ... well, maybe politely point it out ..

bike shop hasnt been near my bike in years.. and they wont unless its a real emergency. I refuse to pay someone $70 per hour to do a job in twice the time it takes me to do it.

[Banditbandit]

You guys must have waaaay too much money or listen too much to the bike shop mechanic inspired propoganda. Modern engines are bulletproof. After the initial running in period the main problem they have to cope with is moisture. Put in a good quality oil and change it once a year. Warm it up properly and ride gently for first 10 kays. Done this for past 17 years on all my road bikes*, had NO problems** and many of the bikes I did pretty high kays (6 years of regular commute to Edinburgh*** and back did 23,000K a year, never mind the other riding) and usually owned for 3 or 4 years. Engine strip down on 1 of them revealed no damage and mates who bought the bikes from me had no problems.

If for some reason I did blow up an engine then I've more than paid for it with the saved time and money (plus think of all the wasted oil I've NOT polluted).

Black engine oil does not mean it needs changed. It's an old wives tale...again I reckon inspired by grease monkeys. Correspondingly, non-black engine oil does not mean it doesn't need changed.

Changing your engine oil every 1000 kays is a crock of shite and causes MORE engine damage.

*bar the three Suzuki 2 strokes I owned cos they seize/hole pistons every 3000Km or 2 months
**ok...and bar GPX750 POS that was owned for 3 weeks (and oil changed) when previous spanner monkey overtightening cylander head bolts causing them to crack caused engine to implode.
**bearing in mind regular well below freezing conditions compared to godzone that the engine had to start in

Hmmm ... remind me to never buy a bike you've "worked on" ...

[Grubber]

Thanks for the link - lots of good info (I'm only about 20 pages in).

On a related note:
Does anyone know where I can find Mobil 10W-40 4T oil? I tried to find it when I got the scooter because I had been using Mobil 1 in the car and the manual recommended 10W-40 oil, but I've yet to see the stuff anywhere.

Yup i do!
You can got it from Waitomo Brennan in Pukekohe.
I get all mine there. Is it the racing 4t that your looking for?

While we are on the topic of oil changes.....I do mine every 10k and do the filter at the same time. Recommended by the book. I have had heaps of bikes of all shapes and sizes over the years and have not had one let me down yet. I just stick to the Owners Manual for the k's and do a major checklist for the oil type to suit. Seems to work ok for me.

[Banditbandit]

bike shop hasnt been near my bike in years.. and they wont unless its a real emergency. I refuse to pay someone $70 per hour to do a job in twice the time it takes me to do it.

Sorry .. that was a blonde moment ... well, a geriatric grey one at least ...

If you take out the oil plug and leave it to drain for a while I don't believe that 30% gets left behind - some does in the filter and a small amount around the working parts ... but I've always found that what the manuals say the engine will take - it takes ...

And if I've left it to stand a while it frequently takes just a little more than the book says - After an oil change I run the engine for a while - let it cool down - then check the oil levels and top up as needed - and do so frequently.

[cowboyz]

Sorry .. that was a blonde moment ... well, a geriatric grey one at least ...

If you take out the oil plug and leave it to drain for a while I don't believe that 30% gets left behind - some does in the filter and a small amount around the working parts ... but I've always found that what the manuals say the engine will take - it takes ...

And if I've left it to stand a while it frequently takes just a little more than the book says - After an oil change I run the engine for a while - let it cool down - then check the oil levels and top up as needed - and do so frequently.

oh. while we are here... I dont believe 30% is left behind either!... That was dipshits claim i think?

i think there would be less than 100ml left behind. with gravity being what it is and the hole being at the bottom of the engine in all... I wouldnt be surprised if that number was closer to 20ml. Of course.. if you dont take the filter out then that leaves a bay where oil can sit.....

[imdying]

I don't know what average percentage is left in galleries, the pump, the oil cooler, around the cam area, clung to gears, clung to the internals etc etc, but it's definitely more than 100ml in the average IL4, and yes, all 4 stroke motors have three oil capacities listed in their service manuals, dry, with and without filter.

Here's some pics to help you visualise how long and complicated even a bike engines lubrication system is:

<img src="http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Suzuki_GSX-R750_sacs_st3pz.jpg"/>

<img src="http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Suzuki_GSX-R750_sacs_st1pz.jpg" />

<img src="http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Suzuki_GSX-R750_sacs_st2pz.jpg" />

Funky shit :blink:

[MarkH]

Yup i do!
You can got it from Waitomo Brennan in Pukekohe.
I get all mine there. Is it the racing 4t that your looking for?

Yeah, the racing 4T is Mobil's only Class IV fully synthetic oil for motorcycles - good for several reasons. I'm currently using what I believe is a class V fully synthetic oil but would prefer to go with class IV when I buy more oil.

Is that the Mobil on Manukau Rd? If so I should have stopped in there and grabbed some oil a couple of weeks ago when I visited a customer across the road from them. I'm bound to be back that way before I run out of oil if I can't find anyone closer that stocks it.

[scracha]

Hmmm ... remind me to never buy a bike you've "worked on" ...

Most of my bikes were high mileage (into 6 figures) and never missed a beat. Most of them have been sold to family/mates too and I never bullshitted about how they been treated. Put it this way, they can do 200andsomething and 14000rpm so me pootling around at 100 and 3000rpm is hardly gonna make them break sweat.

Recall a magazine (BIKE I think) a few years back stripped down a highish mileage CBR600F2 that bar one oil change, hadn't been serviced in about 3 years/38000Kms. Owner was skint so just warmed it up properly and didn't thrash it too much. Couple of shims needed done but basically fuck all wrong with the engine. He'd saved a fortune (UK bike mechanics charge like wounded bulls).

[MarkH]

He'd saved a fortune (UK bike mechanics charge like wounded bulls).

People actually pay mechanics to drain some oil, change a filter and pour some oil in? :scratch:

[scumdog]

People actually pay mechanics to drain some oil, change a filter and pour some oil in? :scratch:

Yep- just like they pay people to do plumbing - or electrical work on their house, wired eh?

[pritch]

People actually pay mechanics to drain some oil, change a filter and pour some oil in? :scratch:

I think you might have to if you want to keep the warranty on a new bike?
They do other stuff as well of course.

[AllanB]

At least I now know that semi-synthetic is not worth considering.

OK I admit giving up after page 10 or so .......... the conclusion at that point was that Mobil is the jizz.

So WTF was wrong with semi? Of interest every bike shop I know of apart from the Triumph boys use semi-synthetic in their service department (Triumph chaps use Mobil full).

Quasi sells Mobil I understand if anyone is looking for it.

[MarkH]

So WTF was wrong with semi?

One HUGE problem with semi synthetic oil is that there are no regulations regarding how much synthetic oil is in the mix - it could be 50/50 or 90/10 or 99/1, and the oil companies are reluctant to reveal their secrets. Since semi synthetic oil could be 99% dino juice you might as well save your money and just buy mineral oil OR fork out for the real stuff.

Then there is the fully synthetic oil that is actually modified dino juice (class III) which courts have ruled is sufficiently changed to be legally allowed to be described as "synthetic" - even though it isn't the same as "real" synthetic oil and lacks the superior qualities of class IV or class V synthetic oil.

The real deal like Mobil 1 has a much greater temperature stability, clings better to metal, maintains viscosity in spec much longer, lubricates better & protects from corrosion better. Basically it is better stuff in pretty much every respect.

[MarkH]

Yep- just like they pay people to do plumbing - or electrical work on their house, wired eh?

When you consider the lack of technical knowledge then yep, pretty darned weird!

All an oil change is:
Put oil pan under drain plug
Undo drain plug
Leave to drain
Remove oil filter
Put new oil filter in
Replace drain plug & tighten
Pour the required amount of fresh oil in

It ain't rocket surgery!

I have installed my own car stereo equipment (at least 3 times), built my own poker table (stretching and stapling the vinyl was a right bastard), custom made a >200W torch (one-off unique) and done other projects - but an oil change is fuck-loads easier than any of that stuff.

[jonbuoy]

One HUGE problem with semi synthetic oil is that there are no regulations regarding how much synthetic oil is in the mix - it could be 50/50 or 90/10 or 99/1, and the oil companies are reluctant to reveal their secrets. Since semi synthetic oil could be 99% dino juice you might as well save your money and just buy mineral oil OR fork out for the real stuff.

Then there is the fully synthetic oil that is actually modified dino juice (class III) which courts have ruled is sufficiently changed to be legally allowed to be described as "synthetic" - even though it isn't the same as "real" synthetic oil and lacks the superior qualities of class IV or class V synthetic oil.

The real deal like Mobil 1 has a much greater temperature stability, clings better to metal, maintains viscosity in spec much longer, lubricates better & protects from corrosion better. Basically it is better stuff in pretty much every respect.

As long as you don´t use it in flat tappet engines :dodge:

[Quasievil]

Quasi sells Mobil I understand if anyone is looking for it.

Yes I do, I work for Mobil, I dont sell it on the website however, but I can get it for anyone who wants it.
$90 for 4lts

[pritch]

OK I admit giving up after page 10 or so .......... the conclusion at that point was that Mobil is the jizz.

So WTF was wrong with semi? Of interest every bike shop I know of apart from the Triumph boys use semi-synthetic in their service department (Triumph chaps use Mobil full).

Quasi sells Mobil I understand if anyone is looking for it.

It was never the conclusion that Mobil was it. He was at pains to point out that his experience was mainly with Mobil products so that was what he knew. You could reasonably extend his Mobil comments to include any of the other full synthetics, and he did tell you how to differentiate those oils from the others like Castrol and Shell.

I have struck a reluctance on the part of dealers to use full synthetic and I don't fully understand why. Maybe some hereabout could elucidate?

[Quasievil]

I have struck a reluctance on the part of dealers to use full synthetic and I don't fully understand why. Maybe some hereabout could elucidate?

Because its expensive, and workshops generally want a one oil solution , one oil for all, as opposed to stocking a semi, a full synth, (and in the case of a car shop) a Diesel, etc

However with different emission reduction systems (especially in Diesel engines) they are not getting to do this as much, they (car shops espec) wont have the choice.

BTW (car speak) the amount of shops buyig complete cheap crap oil and charging quality retail rates for it is staggering, if youre getting your car serviced ask what oil they are using ok

[MarkH]

As long as you don´t use it in flat tappet engines :dodge:

I'd be VERY surprised if a proper (class IV or class V) synthetic oil wasn't the best thing to use in a flat tappet race engine - however the additives would need to be right. My understanding is that the most important element for the flat tappet engines oil is Zinc - not enough and they risk failure. Clearly Mobil 1 Racing 4T is formulated for motorcycle engines, not flat tappet race engines - therefore is not the right product for the job. The same base oil with the right mix of additives would most likely work great in the flat tappet engines, though I don't know if such a product exists.

[MarkH]

Yes I do, I work for Mobil, I dont sell it on the website however, but I can get it for anyone who wants it.
$90 for 4lts

For my 1.3L oil changes that would work out at a cost of:
$30 for oil + $8.50 for a Suzuki filter = $38.50 per oil change.

Compare that to dropping a bike into a shop and letting them use whatever oil they like (which could be Castrol or Shell or some semi synthetic - ugh) and the amount that they would charge you. I think I would be getting great value! I would rather save the money on labour and spend it on quality oil - even on a bike using close to 4L of oil it is going to be cheaper to use Mobil 1 and do the change yourself than to pay a shop to do the change for you using whatever oil they do.

That is what I have done previously with cars - did my own oil change, but spent the extra money to use Mobil 1

[MarkH]

Because its expensive, and workshops generally want a one oil solution , one oil for all, as opposed to stocking a semi, a full synth, (and in the case of a car shop) a Diesel, etc

I suspect that the biggest reason is that shops want to offer an oil change for a certain price and from that price they want to make the biggest margin that they can. If they use $70 worth of oil instead of $20 worth of oil then they either make $50 less or they have to charge $50 more - lots of customers would balk at paying $50 more for an oil change. If the competition will do an oil change for your customers at $50 less then you will lose some business, to be competitive and still make good money you need to use cheaper oil - so a bike shop will choose a reasonable oil that they can buy for a good price and use that.

If the cheap oil will work fine in your bike and let you run up 240,000 kms on that engine then who cares if you might be able to run up 320,000 kms (or whatever) on Mobil 1?
- Not the bike shop making plenty of money charging you for oil changes and then selling you a new bike, that's for sure.

[Quasievil]

I suspect that the biggest reason is that shops want to offer an oil change for a certain price and from that price they want to make the biggest margin that they can. If they use $70 worth of oil instead of $20 worth of oil then they either make $50 less or they have to charge $50 more - lots of customers would balk at paying $50 more for an oil change. If the competition will do an oil change for your customers at $50 less then you will lose some business, to be competitive and still make good money you need to use cheaper oil - so a bike shop will choose a reasonable oil that they can buy for a good price and use that.

If the cheap oil will work fine in your bike and let you run up 240,000 kms on that engine then who cares if you might be able to run up 320,000 kms (or whatever) on Mobil 1?
- Not the bike shop making plenty of money charging you for oil changes and then selling you a new bike, that's for sure.

Yes that, as part of my comment also, it ties in.

Interestingly I have workshops making more margin dollars on a synthetic offer, if they can be arsed offering it, most cant be.

[Banditbandit]

People actually pay mechanics to drain some oil, change a filter and pour some oil in? :scratch:

Yeah I do ... I spent the 1970s and into the mid-1980s keeping old British bikes running on a very low budget. I sold my small collection and went new BMW and or Japanese because I wanted to be a rider not a mechanic ...

It's not about technical know-how ... I could do it ... but now I just enjoy riding into the shop and saying "fix it .. I'll pick it up after work ..." And yeah ... I do earn in the top tax bracket so paying for it is not an issue ...

[imdying]

Same here... time is money, and they charge less than I earn, and I don't have to get my hands dirty... win win!

I'd rather spend a few hours tinkering with my projects than doing menial tasks.

[cowboyz]

I don't know what average percentage is left in galleries, the pump, the oil cooler, around the cam area, clung to gears, clung to the internals etc etc, but it's definitely more than 100ml in the average IL4, and yes, all 4 stroke motors have three oil capacities listed in their service manuals, dry, with and without filter.

Here's some pics to help you visualise how long and complicated even a bike engines lubrication system is:

<img src="http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Suzuki_GSX-R750_sacs_st3pz.jpg"/>

<img src="http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Suzuki_GSX-R750_sacs_st1pz.jpg" />

<img src="http://www.moto-station.com/ttesimages/motodivers/nouveautes2007/Suzuki_GSX-R750_sacs_st2pz.jpg" />

Funky shit :blink:


all acedemic really... if you take it to a bike shop do they completely drain the oil or not?


Same here... time is money, and they charge less than I earn, and I don't have to get my hands dirty... win win!

I'd rather spend a few hours tinkering with my projects than doing menial tasks.

hey.. if you wondering where you can store all that spare cash.............. my number is ..........

[imdying]

all acedemic really... if you take it to a bike shop do they completely drain the oil or not?Agreed, not really that important, it's the way it is. Well, unless you pay them half a weeks work to strip the motor and scrub the galleries :D


hey.. if you wondering where you can store all that spare cash.............. my number is ..........I'm not rolling in dough, but I do like to spend my spare time doing interesting things, which changing oil, is not.

[SMOKEU]

Agreed, not really that important, it's the way it is. Well, unless you pay them half a weeks work to strip the motor and scrub the galleries :D


Then there is every chance they will charge you for stripping the engine apart without even taking a single bolt off apart from the sump plug and filter bolt(s), and you'd never know the difference.

[imdying]

Then there is every chance they will charge you for stripping the engine apart without even taking a single bolt off apart from the sump plug and filter bolt(s), and you'd never know the difference.Maybe you wouldn't, but I'm a bit sharper :msn-wink:

[SMOKEU]

Maybe you wouldn't, but I'm a bit sharper :msn-wink:

So you reckon you're the sharpest knife in the drawer? :buggerd:

[onearmedbandit]

Even if he was the dullest knife in the drawer, you'd still be a spoon.

[SMOKEU]

Even if he was the dullest knife in the drawer, you'd still be a spoon.

Thanks for the compliment.

[jonbuoy]

I'd be VERY surprised if a proper (class IV or class V) synthetic oil wasn't the best thing to use in a flat tappet race engine - however the additives would need to be right. My understanding is that the most important element for the flat tappet engines oil is Zinc - not enough and they risk failure. Clearly Mobil 1 Racing 4T is formulated for motorcycle engines, not flat tappet race engines - therefore is not the right product for the job. The same base oil with the right mix of additives would most likely work great in the flat tappet engines, though I don't know if such a product exists.

Yeah ZDP thats missing in some cases, I´m still not prepared to risk it in my CB750, not sure I´d put it in a Harley or Buell for that matter, I think Buell actually recommend a "diesel" grade oil in the manual, I´m not too worried about synthetic/mineral argument, the bike had spent all of its life on mineral oil and there was almost no wear internally. I change it more often than most. Better off using a cheap oil and changing it twice as often than using an expensive oil and not changing it at the recommended intervals.

[MarkH]

Yeah ZDP thats missing in some cases, I´m still not prepared to risk it in my CB750, not sure I´d put it in a Harley or Buell for that matter, I think Buell actually recommend a "diesel" grade oil in the manual, I´m not too worried about synthetic/mineral argument, the bike had spent all of its life on mineral oil and there was almost no wear internally. I change it more often than most. Better off using a cheap oil and changing it twice as often than using an expensive oil and not changing it at the recommended intervals.

Surely the ZDP levels are similarly low in mineral oils just as they are in synthetic oils. The reduction in ZDP was done over a decade ago in almost all oils due to the detrimental effects it has on catalytic converters - a 'green' measure if you will. There is nothing wrong with a "diesel" grade oil - Mobil Delvac is pretty good and is a full synthetic oil.

It may be better to use a cheaper oil and change it often enough than a good oil and not change it often enough, but it is surely better to use a good oil and change it often enough. There are many superior properties of synthetic oils that make them better at protecting any engine - regardless of how often it is changed. There is also a ZDP booster product that can be added to oil with low ZDP levels - for the engines that require it.

[jonbuoy]

Surely the ZDP levels are similarly low in mineral oils just as they are in synthetic oils. The reduction in ZDP was done over a decade ago in almost all oils due to the detrimental effects it has on catalytic converters - a 'green' measure if you will. There is nothing wrong with a "diesel" grade oil - Mobil Delvac is pretty good and is a full synthetic oil.

It may be better to use a cheaper oil and change it often enough than a good oil and not change it often enough, but it is surely better to use a good oil and change it often enough. There are many superior properties of synthetic oils that make them better at protecting any engine - regardless of how often it is changed. There is also a ZDP booster product that can be added to oil with low ZDP levels - for the engines that require it.

Where did I say there was anything wrong with Diesel grade oil? My point was (and partly in cheek at starting another synthetic VS mineral oil flame war which most car and bike forums are full of) Mobil 1 may not be the "best stuff" for your particular engine. As I understand it Diesel rated oils have more anti wear additives (modern ZDDP equivalents) than petrol engine rated oils but probably not a good thing to use if you have a CAT.

Better off looking at the manufactures specs and requirements choose the oil that the engine was designed for.

I´m happy running mineral oil in some of my engines but not others. Even some engine part suppliers specify not to use Synthetics in the break in period, some specify not to use it full stop. There reasoning being that synthetic oils can be too slippery, some friction is needed in older engines with flat tappets to allow the lifters to rotate in situ and some only need the friction to be present for the break in period.

http://cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

[pritch]

Even some engine part suppliers specify not to use Synthetics in the break in period,

An impressive list of manufacturers fill the engine with synthetic oil at the factory so it's there from new. Those parts suppliers are perhaps a bit behind the play.

[jonbuoy]

An impressive list of manufacturers fill the engine with synthetic oil at the factory so it's there from new. Those parts suppliers are perhaps a bit behind the play.

New engines different valve trains. Synthetic isn´t a problem in newer engine designs. Its only an issue for older flat tappet engines and only over the last few years as the oil manufacturers have been dropping the levels of ZDDP to a level that no longer protects the flat tappets and followers. Its pretty well known problem for re-builders of classic car engines. Google ZDDP classic cars.

http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_r_AUTO_ZDDP.htm

[AllanB]

Pretty sure the synthetic oil- running in story has been debunked as a myth.

Porsche, Mercedes and many others are using full synth from new. I think the worst thing you can do to a modern big bore engine during running in is babying it or lugging it around at low revs for the first 1,000 kms.

[SMOKEU]

Pretty sure the synthetic oil- running in story has been debunked as a myth.

Porsche, Mercedes and many others are using full synth from new. I think the worst thing you can do to a modern big bore engine during running in is babying it or lugging it around at low revs for the first 1,000 kms.

This here is an interesting read http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[Quasievil]

This here is an interesting read http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I stopped at "this is controversal" i.e he hasnt got a clue :yawn:

[Owl]

I stopped at "this is controversal" i.e he hasnt got a clue :yawn:

I'd agree with that!;)

[jonbuoy]

Pretty sure the synthetic oil- running in story has been debunked as a myth.

Porsche, Mercedes and many others are using full synth from new. I think the worst thing you can do to a modern big bore engine during running in is babying it or lugging it around at low revs for the first 1,000 kms.

Yes on modern engines, not on older engines.

[Quasievil]

Yes on modern engines, not on older engines.

Is that because they are already run in lol

Here is another myth

"Old engines cant use Synthetics", B.S yes they can !!

Source, technical statement from Mobil.

[jonbuoy]

Is that because they are already run in lol

Here is another myth

"Old engines cant use Synthetics", B.S yes they can !!

Source, technical statement from Mobil.

No - more like they don´t need to be run in, I didn´t say old engines couldn´t use synthetic. But for some engines its not recommended.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014112&contentId=7027140

http://www.e-typeclub.com/tech_lib_10.htm

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

Who am I going to believe when it comes to starting up - the engine builders and parts manufacturers or statements from oil companies?